Relationship Scientist REVEALS The 3 CLEAR SIGNS They’ll CHEAT (Don’t Miss THIS RED FLAG!) | Macken Murphy

27:14Right. But if the 19 year old, I'm like, this guy is kind of out of control. Right, right, right. So it's really, I would say that body count, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I would suspect that body count predicts infidelity in as much as body count correlates with sociosexuality, if I had to guess. And why is it so looked down upon when women, younger women sleep with a lot of men versus younger men sleeping with a lot of women? It's an interesting question. Is there any science or research that shows how it can harm one of the other genders more or less? Well, I'll talk about that because a lot of guys say, oh, and this is just wishful thinking.

27:58It's kind of a little bit of coping and seething. It's people saying like, oh, men can do whatever they want sexually and it doesn't mean anything. But women have to, you know, be chaste and pure. And it's like almost every study that I'm aware of that shows a negative association between promiscuity and relationship outcomes shows the same results in men. Right. I'm not saying that there's no studies that show one gender or the other, but in general, if you look at a set of married people and try to find like, oh, does body count predict marital satisfaction or, you know, or infidelity, right?

28:35Generally, it's like, oh, the effect is found in women and men. So why is it more stigmatized in women versus men in the American West? In America and in the West more generally, I'd say, kind of an interesting question. And then there are other cultures where it's also stigmatized more on one gender versus the other. And generally it is, the stigma does lean towards women and it's a complicated question. I don't think I'm the right person to answer it because I don't know. But I will note that it's not because it only matters as an indicator for one gender. That's just not true. Gotcha. Okay.

29:10It could also, to be frank, it could also be that in these societies, because just as a note, a lot of people think that only men care about this stuff. But when you do surveys and you ask questions like, what's the ideal body count? So I think Steve Stewart Williams did a study on this. And you find that both men and women care about it. They both care to an extent. What is the ideal body count? It's a moderate number, generally. Not zero. And this is in Western samples. But in their studies, and also I think Alexander from Date Psychology tried to validate this with his Twitter followers. But the Stuart Williams study, I believe it was UK and US.

29:51It might just be UK, I'm not sure. But similar results all around. About average, right? So somewhere in the realm of - What's average? Somewhere between a few and several is generally what we see in these days. Three to seven. Yeah, a few to several, sure. A few to several. It's under 10, more than one. Yeah, people seem to discriminate against. And I'm not saying, obviously, there are some people who fetishize virginity and are very attracted to it. But in general, it seems that men and women are a bit put off by inexperience and really put off by too much experience. So it's like if you and women discriminate more harshly against inexperience than men, right?

30:33And they both discriminate quite harshly against too much experience. Overexperience. So the graph, if I were to graph like, and by the way, I don't think that anyone should be, you know, counting the number of people they sleep with so that that way they hit the optimal number, right? This might help people lie more effectively about how many people they've slept with. But if you were to graph, you know, optimal body count, right, in terms of the average person's interests, it would look something like a wave, right? where it's like it starts off like not a huge deal to be a virgin but not ideal and then it's like oh a few you know now now we're talking about a you know normal healthy yeah yeah someone who's not a loser but yeah yeah yeah and someone someone who has sex right right just my type right yeah exactly that i think that's what people are thinking is like they don't want someone who's you know a complete prude they want someone who has you know a full-sex knowledge some knowledge right but then after you get past several then it's then it's a wave crashing on the shore it's It really does.

31:30People are put off by it. So to say that women care too, I guess it would be interesting. It's like, well, in most of these cultures where women's sexuality is more strictly controlled than men's and more harshly stigmatized are cultures where men have all the power, right? And so maybe if women had all the power, they would start becoming very sexually controlling and neurotic about male sexuality. I'm not sure that they would. I'm not convinced that they would, but we can't run the experiment right there's no there's no there's no way of testing that you know in a lab that i know of i mean maybe some clever researcher is listening and thinking oh i've got an idea um but it's clear that women care too and to and seemingly to a similar degree similar ish anyway and so it's possible that the reason that we see the stigma is just about who has the power but again there are i'm going to be cautious here and say that there are probably experts on chastity and purity in these concepts who have very fleshed out ideas as to why it's men who are doing this, you know, kind of stigmatizing.

32:31But that would be based on my knowledge. That would be my hypothesis. What's your thoughts on jealousy? Do you feel like jealousy and insecurity is a sign that someone loves you? Or is it a toxic, unhealthy trait? A lot of people do, and this isn't, you know, laboratory studies. This is just living a human life. A lot of people do seem to find some degree of jealousy sexy, right? But jealousy is also just because it's like, oh, this person really cares about me. Like they really care what I'm doing. Do they really care about you or are they more insecure about themselves? My feelings on jealousy is that it's a naturally evolved human emotion, right?

33:10It's one of the many pieces of evidence that we are a, let's say a serially monogamous ape. And I'm not alone in thinking that by the way, you know, Helen Fisher wrote a very good book on this and there are plenty of academics who agree with me. I also know that there are plenty of academics who disagree and think, I saw you had sex at dawn in the lobby. So there are plenty of people who disagree with this, but humans have a evolved psychological adaptation to feel jealous when they see threats to their partner's fidelity. So it's like, if you see a super hot guy talking to your fiance, that might be like - Want to be protective or something.

33:44Yeah. You're like, no, this isn't, I mean, you seem like a totally secure guy, but you might be sitting there thinking, this isn't ideal. Right? Right, right. And same for her. You go to an event and a bunch of girls want your autograph or whatever. She might be, and she seems like a very secure person as well, but she might internally be like, this is not the ideal situation. And that is an evolved psychological adaptation to, in your case, protect paternity and in her case, protect investment. So a lot of people don't understand the evolutionary psychology of men's jealousy is very clear. It's a clear story.

34:18if someone else is sleeping with your girlfriend you might end up raising a kid that's not yours right so that's a pretty clear narrative everyone understands that yeah it's like oh i don't want that to happen so jealousy is natural on the woman's side right there's no chance that her in in in most cases there is no chance that he is going to be pregnant right so she's not too worried about that right she's uh but what she is worried about is that if you're out you know sleeping with other women maybe you end up raising those kids taking care of her taking care of those kids and then she's left alone with a baby and nobody and nobody around so both sexes have strong reasons to feel jealous and those have deep roots in our evolutionary biology you're in a relationship do you feel jealous ever yes but but i also i will say this that the that the research really helps because it's like no genuinely because i'm like i would i would give you I mean no you're what 26 27 no I'm 40 almost 41 I would say every relationship I was in from 16 to 35 I was jealous so I'm gonna grow out of it at different levels I'm not saying you're to grow out of it it was one of the hardest things for me to actually overcome now I'm just gonna speak from personal experience I don't know if this backs any data or research or science that you've seen, but what I do know is being jealous was a horrible thing to feel.

35:40It never felt good for me. I never felt empowered and excited by it. It caused more stress and anxiety, and it probably had me saying things that I shouldn't have said in my relationships, acting in certain ways I shouldn't have acted, and nothing horrible, but nothing benefiting me. There was no benefit ever in the relationship for me being jealous. Now, you might be able to say, well you know having a little bit of jealousy and saying oh who is that guy and showing that you care that they were talking to someone else maybe there's some slight benefit for that but just like you said like you know someone in a boxing match who's like outmatched and know they're gonna lose that builds and you start throwing haymakers later that is not a fun picture in a relationship sometimes hard to get back yeah and also it doesn't everyone is and i'm not a terribly jealous person I'm just acknowledging that I have jealousy I have that emotion course like everybody I get it doing get that I certainly don't have you know morbid jealousy or anything like that but but you know I mean the green-eyed monster sometimes sometimes visit courses the but what I will say is that let me finish my father you actually yeah yeah so the jealousy that I felt never added any benefit to the relationship and it only made me feeling more insecure and anxious.

36:59There was a time when I was about 34, 35, 36 in that time where I noticed the jealousy started to leave my body. Like I stopped being jealous that this person was going to be with someone else. There was something that flipped inside of me.

37:20and I was in another relationship after that where I had zero jealousy that I can think of maybe there was moments but it wasn't it didn't come out as like jealous acts and I remember thinking to myself something switched inside of me I don't know if it was the time the season of life the experiences of different relationships I'd been in the agony and pain that I felt by having jealousy in 20 years of my life before that but something flipped and I just said if this person doesn't want to be with me what's the point of me being jealous or insecure if they're gonna move on and leave it's probably to be painful in the moment but it's gonna benefit me in the long term so I just got to a point you know in my relationship with Martha now when I started dating her she's a very famous celebrity in her country and done 40 movies and her DM requests are really horrifying oh yeah I mean I don't look at that stuff yeah I'm kidding yeah I'm sure she's got tons of men who have lots of money who are you know sexy charming who have big businesses who are celebrities that were reaching out to her before me and I'm sure some still reach out now yeah she doesn't engage in that but if she didn't want to be with me it would be the greatest gift that she would give me by moving on quicker than staying with me longer and then and then cheating on me or ending it later And so I'm like, if you want to be with me, it's because you're committed to the vision of our relationship and what we can build together.

38:47Now, that doesn't mean I just get to be a sloppy human being and stop caring about her and stop investing in time and communicating and loving her and speaking life and abundance into her. so i'm constantly developing self as a man and as a human being to build confidence to to be my word to myself to add value to society to be desirable to myself but also to her and if that's not enough for her then we shouldn't be together and so the jealousy thing just doesn't add value to the relationship from my experience i completely agree i think that's all very wise i'm not saying you should just like cut it off right now yeah i know i know and i don't this isn't something that i struggle with yeah yeah it's it's it's it's not a it's not a huge part of my life but i was just but you acknowledge you have that i have the emotion yes like many people do do you engage in any of the playful jealousy that we discussed the kind of hey who was that guy no none of that none of the jokes no interesting i'm trying to i mean maybe there was once or twice where i was like you know where do you know that guy from where like like someone came up to her like just curious like oh this someone you dated in the past or someone who's hitting on you before just more of like who is this person yeah yeah but not from a sense of like why are you talking to this guy yeah oh no no never never me either yeah no no that's that's so but now I don't I don't know why I don't I think again I had too much pain and suffering by experiencing now I probably have a lot more jealousy that you I wasn't as evolved yes it's a well time it sounds it sounds like you really suffered from it I've been quite lucky I've also heard, I don't know.

40:23I mean, I think that a little bit of playful protectiveness, if it's in that spirit. Yeah, yeah. I think that, again, some people find it quite sexy. Sure. And, you know, quite stimulating. That it's like, oh, wow, this, you know, this - I get that. This woman wants me so badly. This guy wants me so badly. They don't want anyone else to talk to me. I get that. But as long as it's - But where does that go to? But if it's not, yeah, but that's with the very strict provision that it's like, it doesn't lead to controlling and strength, such as going through DM requests, such as going through - Give me access to everything.

40:55Where are you every two hours? All that stuff. Yeah, why didn't you call me last night, et cetera. And I think that's a slippery slope. For sure. It's like, okay, I'm going to drink a glass of wine once a week, and then I start having twice a week, and then two glasses of wine a night, and then it's like, now I'm an alcoholic. So it's okay. Make sure you manage that, I think, is the thing. Otherwise, I just think that's a lot of relationships struggle with too much jealousy. Yeah. From my personal experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. I don't have the science behind it, but I'm curious, when you know when you've been dating someone that they are actually in love with you, are there clear signs that someone truly loves you?

41:34Such a good question. So I spoke to the world's leading expert, and I'll flag here as well that I'm a very, let's call it the earliest career researcher possible. I'm a PhD student. Everything that I've said in this conversation, I've done some research myself. We've run a couple studies and one of them's in the write-up phase, one of them's under peer review. I'm active as a peer reviewer and speak at academic conferences, et cetera. But I'm still very, even though I'm an active researcher, I'm still very early. So everything that I've said so far, it's the work of other people, right? And that's part of kind of my mission, let's say, as a person.

42:09It's like, share this information. I love my field. I love the researchers in my field. And I want all of their voices to be heard on platforms like this. So I spoke to Helen Fisher, who is someone who definitely doesn't need my implication. She's very famous. But she's, I would say, the world leading expert in romantic love, understands it top to bottom, right? And what she told me is that That's the best proxy that we have, right? So there's all these symptoms of romantic love. But the most, you know, if we're talking about in love, like acutely in love, the symptom that you're looking for is obsessive thinking.

42:49Thinking about them all the time. Other things include, you know, special meaning, right? So their car is now better than all the other cars. Their shoes are, the way they tie their shoes is so spectacular, you'd think it's adorable. those sorts of you know imputing special meaning that's pretty common with people who are in love and there and love is also really best understood as and this also comes from her work really best understood as three brain systems right there there's there's lust which i don't think i need to explain there's let's call it passionate love romantic love right this acute honeymoon phase style love which generally lasts you know if things go really well could last maybe four years, if you're lucky.

43:30If you're in a long distance relationship. Maybe a little longer. And the final form is attachment. So that's when you're settled down with someone and you want that to last a long time. And there's even those feelings of stability and connection and deeper meaning. And those passionate love feelings go away. And some people think, oh, what a disaster, I want to keep them. But I mean, those passionate love feelings come with a lot of what we were just talking about, right? They come with a lot of jealousy. They come with a lot of the, like, do you really want your life to be categorized by obsessing over a romantic partner for 40 years?

44:08It's like, there's more important things to be doing. A few years of that, I think it's about right than other things. If someone is in a relationship with someone right now and they've been cheated on by that person, but they've chosen to stay with them, man or woman. Do you think it's possible, based on research or science that you've studied, that that relationship can work, or that they can be faithful after infidelity? I think we all know couples who have survived infidelity, right? And there's the kind of fright, aphorism, best predictor of future behaviors, past behavior to an extent that does seem to apply here it's not the best predictor but kayla knopp and her colleagues did a longitudinal study of people in relationships so to say and i believe it was kayla knopp i'll have to double check that after the show but there was a study in any case that that that looked at okay what were what what's your relationship history right where are you coming from here and then watched you know how did the how did this relationship play out.

45:16And excuse me if I'm misquoting the stat, I read this study two years ago, but I believe it was that people who had cheated in their past relationship, you know, I won't say a specific number, but it was a multiple more likely. It wasn't like they're 10 % more likely. It was like they're three times more likely to cheat again, right? Than someone else taken neutrally, right? And that's previous relationship to current relationship. But I would say that it's like you gain so much information. Plenty of people don't cheat. Plenty of people never cheat their entire lives. Plenty of women, plenty of men, maybe even most.

45:52And so if someone does that to you, they've just given you, as you might say, a gift of giving you all this information about them as a person. Right. And I'm not damning cheaters. Plenty of psychologically normal, good people make mistakes that they consider mistakes immediately. Right. That happens. But this idea that it's like, you can, there are plenty of fish in the sea and you want to choose the one fish that already did that to you. You know, I, I, but I would, I would say that this is that in speaking about this, I'm talking a lot about, I'm thinking in my mind because of my own age, I'm thinking of, you know, young relationships where hitting reset is pretty easy and finding someone new.

46:31But if you have 10 years of relationship and you've got a family and all this context, it's a little different. So I'm not making any blanket recommendations. I'm just saying that if someone has cheated on you, yeah, they're more likely to cheat on you than a random stranger on the street. Do you feel like Gen Z is cheating more than other generations? I don't see any evidence of that. If anything, young people are engaging in less risky sexual behaviors across the board. Really? Why is that? It's interesting. I mean, that is something where I'm going to have to email you some names that you could talk to about that.

47:05Some people call it the mating crisis. What is the mating crisis? That, you know, people aren't mating as much. Why is that? Well, there's a bunch of different theories. It's not my area of expertise. I'm sure you can sense that I'm kind of uncomfortable speaking about it because I think it's a little bit... I'm very tentative about it. I'll just say that. Right. Like this idea that it's even a thing or that it's a bad thing. Right, right. I mean, is it such a bad thing that teenagers are having less casual sex? Is that really something that... Right. Is that a problem that needs to be fixed? Probably a good thing.

47:39Is it such a problem that people are... They're waiting. Waiting longer before having sex for the first time? I don't know. And that's not the... I'm probably dumbing it down. That's certainly not the only thing that people talk about the maiden crisis. People talk about, you know, various subcultures formed around, you know, the state of not being able to mate and that sort of thing. And I appreciate that for some people, the mating market is probably especially hard now. But you wanted to ask about why it's happening. Well, one component that a lot of people who are experts in this talk about is the fact that there's a risk reduction across the board.

48:15Right. So it's not just that they're having less casual sex. They're also drinking less, smoking less. Another factor that you'll hear about is that in some ways, there's a, in some specific ways, and I'm being very careful here because, again, it's not my area of expertise. I've heard other people who are experts say that there's somewhat more social conservatism in some ways, using that word very carefully. I'm not saying that Gen Z is super right wing. I just mean that they are in their social behaviors more conservative, right? And so they might be less interested in getting super drunk on a Friday night and finding a random person at a club to get naked with.

48:52Right. That's, you know, for a lot of people, that's a relatively wild thing to do. And they don't do it often if they do it at all. Have you ever been unfaithful in previous relationships? No, I haven't. I guess the follow-up question would be, how do you know you could change if that had happened in the past, where you could still be a faithful person moving forward? Knowing that the statistics are, you know, you're more likely. Yeah. How do you change behavior in someone who has? Well, one encouraging piece of advice is plenty of people in Kaelinop's study, and I really hope it's Kaelinop now because I've said it twice.

49:33many people in that study who cheated in their previous relationship didn't cheat in the next one right so it's not doom right it's not that whole once a cheater always a cheater thing it's like that's a that's a good saying and it's probably true in many cases but it's not true in all cases interesting but what you're asking again keep in mind that i'm a i'm more of a what is guy and i and so i've i feel like that's that's quite a deep spiritual question to say how can i change right and and move forward um and it's one that you know i don't have any personal experience with uh and so i haven't walked that road and i also don't know of any data in terms of therapeutically helping people who have that i would say though that it's hard to imagine therapy because it's not a pathological behavior in the sense that it's as we spoke about at the start animals also engage animals in socially monogamous species also engage in high rates of extra pair copulation right they also have affairs right so the closest our closest our closest socially monogamous relative the gibbons they're the species of ape they have really long arms they swing through the trees very hairy but they look like us otherwise they're quite close relatives of ours all things considered and they also engage in monogamy right They're very beautiful creatures.

50:54They pair up. They go into the trees. They actually sing duets. It's very romantic. Yeah, and the singing seems to be kind of the Gibbon version of posting each other on Instagram for humans. It's like we're together, just so everyone knows. But it's also about territorial defense and social signaling and whatnot. And, you know, scientists did an experiment they really couldn't get away with in humans where they, I believe this was Reichard, they just watched them. And they were like, are they, and they counted every time they saw them have sex and they were like, or engage in intercourse or copulate.

51:28And they said, okay, how many times are they mating with their partner? How many times are they mating with someone else? Right. Someone who's not their partner. and 11 % of the time they were cheating, right? Which is much higher than humans. Wow. Right. So treating it as, I'm not saying that every behavior that occurs in other animals occurs in humans, but we see documented rates of extra pair paternity across the animal kingdom, across socially monogamous lineages. And so even though it's not necessarily a good thing to do, and so it's pathological in that sense, maybe it's morally pathological.

52:01From a psychological perspective, we all evolved to have these urges. It's just a matter of whether you choose to succumb to them. What about if someone has been cheated on in a previous relationship? What should you look out for in dating someone who has been cheated on by someone else? Well, that's a really good question. Gosh, you're really nailing these questions. I'm trying to set you up for the success of the rest of the interviews you'll do with the hardest questions up front. Yeah. No, I think these are excellent. Is there any research on that or how to approach a potential partner where in the first few days they say, you know what, I've been cheated on a lot in my past and it's a big concern of mine and I have a lot of worries.

52:45You're not going to cheat. You're not going to do this. Or someone who's had that type of drama, how should you approach entering a relationship with someone who's been cheated on? Well, you're already signaling. It's very perspicacious of you to notice that in your imitation, you're performing reassurance seeking, which is a behavior that's very commonly exhibited by people who have been cheated on. Right. So, you know, you go through your, this is like a typical kind of romantic career. Everything, you know, you're dating someone in high school, dating some people in college, da, da, da, da.

53:15And then you're never even thinking of the possibility that you could get cheated on. And then you see a text pop up on your partner's phone and it's like, oh my gosh. And then you find out whatever. And that's a traumatic event for many people. I mean... It's a betrayal. Well, I'll even go so far as to say traumatic just because it's certainly a betrayal. But to take it to kind of into the psychological space, PTSD is generally a term only assigned to physical threats. And it's kind of unclear whether you can really categorize infidelity that way. But the symptoms of PTSD are so common, right, such as reassurance seeking, ruminating, etc., are so common among people who have been cheated on that some psychologists have coined the term and used the term PISD, right, post-infidelity stress disorder.

54:02My advice here would be to proceed with caution and understanding and goodwill that you're dealing with someone. If you don't know what that's like, you're dealing with someone who is dealing with something quite, um, quite severe. And this is another thing that I just want to know. I mean, I see, I mean, you might be mercifully tucked away from this corner of the internet, but there's a whole corner of the internet right now. That's like men cheating is fine. Women cheating is not. And it's like, we, we've, we've done the research on this and women who get cheated on are often severely traumatized, right?

54:33Like about half of women who, and in some studies, more than half of women who are paired with men who are unfaithful exhibit these symptoms, right? So to say just callously like, oh, it's different, you know, some nonsense about, you know, a key that opens many locks versus, you know, some, some stupid platitude. And it's like, what a, what a careless thing to say about the, about the feelings of the women that you're with. And, you know, I just wonder like, do these men even have mothers the way they, the way they speak about these Wow. I'm curious what we should be more cautious of, getting into a relationship with someone who cheated before or getting into a relationship with someone who's been cheated on?

55:14Well, I would be more cautious about the worried about. But it depends what your concerns are. If you're worried about being with someone who's completely. Like if someone's got PISD. Yeah, and they're struggling with that. And they can never trust the person they're with. And they're always stressed and anxious. And they're always ruminating and reassurance. And where are you? And that's not attractive after a while. No, it's a huge issue. It's a huge issue. You might feel exhausted and you'd be like, I don't want to be with this person. Yeah. If they can't trust me, if they're always checking where I'm at, if they're always calling me, saying, FaceTime me, where are you?

55:44Who are you with? Yep. Who is that person? That's not a sexy quality. No, it's not. In a mating partner. And so is that a bigger red flag? If someone who hasn't dealt with, I'm not saying it's okay what they went through. Yeah. But if they haven't processed and started to heal that, is that more of a red flag versus someone who, in their previous relationship, cheated on their partner? You've made such good points here. You've got to do some research on this. Yeah, well, because my gut reaction was, obviously, I'm thinking about - The cheater. Be cheated on. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I don't want to be cheated on, so I'm going to go with that.

56:18But you've brought up a good point. I don't even know if I should share this, but... Okay. Okay. I believe it was in the same study that I'm referencing about once a cheater, always a cheater, that kind of thing. There's also indicative evidence, and it's just one study, so let's not go to the bank on it. You want to look for cumulative bodies of research when you're assessing a finding. But there's indicative evidence that people who have been cheated on in the past are more likely to be cheated on in their next relationship. Oh, yeah, that's crazy. Now, that's a disturbing finding. And you might think, well, that doesn't make any sense, right?

57:00How could that affect my probabilities? And I'll give you a couple of examples that could be, not saying that this has been studied enough to make conclusions, but if you're the sort of person who is attracted to narcissism, let's say. Mm-hmm. Plenty of people find narcissism quite sexy. Good luck. Right? Yeah. But narcissism is associated with infidelity. Plenty of people find sexual narcissism sexy, right? So that's someone who believes that they're the best lover ever and is totally confident in bed. That also predicts infidelity, right? And so you're attracted to a trait and that predicts your partner selection.

57:42and then the types of partners that you're attracted to you you happen to be cursed by being attracted to covariates of infidelity you got a bad picker you're a bad picker another thing would be just physical attractiveness if you really prioritize that people are more physically attractive tend to have more options tend to be yeah more interested in in suitors etc tend to be less satisfied in relationships so if you're really interested if you're really prioritizing like oh i just want to date the hottest girl possible it's like maybe that's why you keep getting cheated on is because you're not thinking about deeper qualities and then so not to victim blame but it could be picking and then it i hate even saying this but it could possibly be what you're talking about i know of an anecdotal case where i know i know a woman who told me she was like my boyfriend was accusing me of cheating so much that i actually just did it like she was being falsely accused so much that it was like i'm gonna just do this yeah it's like i'm not gonna believe me yeah i'm the i'm the bad guy regardless of what i do so what's the point in being good?

58:37So I'm not saying that that's what causes it, but I'm saying that there's a, some people hear that, they hear, oh, if I was cheated on my last relationship, I'm more likely to be cheated on my next relationship. And they just think, that couldn't be true. And it's like, well, there's actually several ways that it could be true. And we just talked about it too. Gosh, this is so fascinating. I really think about when we choose out of a wound, you're talking about you're attracted to narcissism. Maybe there was something, one of your parents had this trait and it was attractive to you, or just maybe it was unattractive, but you're trying to fix that parent or whatever it might be.

59:11But when we are attracted based on a wound, a psychological wound, it typically ends up having more challenges and problems we need to overcome in that relationship because we're trying to fix someone. We're attracted to them and then we want to change them. As opposed to being attracted and saying, I accept you for who you are. Obviously, we're going to grow and evolve, but I accept the personality, the values, the qualities that you have. And I think if we haven't healed something within us, we're going to keep attracting that thing that chemically, sexually stimulates us and makes us feel something.

59:50But then we're going to also be afraid of it, or we're going to be needing reassurance on something. So we're attracted, but you're not going to hurt me, are you? As opposed to, oh, I see you for the whole person that you are. I've asked all the questions. I'm allowing my gut to also have intuition and be like, is he being honest? And is she following through on what she's saying? And is there congruency? Then you're able to choose based on the whole person versus, oh, I'm just getting this chemical feeling by what I see or what I'm attracted to. What's your thoughts on that? I think you put it quite well and I don't have much to add.

1:00:29I would also note that with my specific example, narcissism is interesting because there are very good reasons to be... So narcissism pretty consistently has a small effect predicting attractiveness in general. Really? What do you mean by that? Meaning that if someone's super cocky versus someone who's average cockiness or insecure, right? the cocky person generally has a slight competitive advantage and like a speed dating setting more options i think it's more attractive yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so and you can talk about why that is and one of it is just that who doesn't want to be around someone confident right and also it gives you this veneer of being able to take care of yourself and others i think that some people i think that i think that to be honest it's like i'm i'm not saying that I prefer that, I don't, but I do understand that a trait that is in some ways negative, narcissism, in many ways negative, actually, I'll be frank.

1:01:33In certain environments, and maybe such as a speed dating study, you sit down with someone and they sit down at the table, they're full of confidence, they're relaxed, they want to chat with you, they want to flirt with you, and they're taking all your compliments in their stride. That's a lot of fun to be around. And so it might not be that that person is wounded and choosing, you know, sexual narcissists, let's say, but. They haven't spent enough time with them yet. Spend time with someone, get to know them before you meet. Yeah, and maybe, yeah, I would say that my, so this podcast is very big on, you know, helping people add value to their lives and improve.

1:02:05And I'm not really much of an advice person, but I will say one piece of advice that if you find yourself getting cheated on over and over and over again, right? If you're listening to this, it would be worth taking a step back and saying, look, it's not my fault that this happened, but what can I change about my future behavior to avoid this happening again. Right. And I think one set to look at changing would be in picking. It's like, okay, well, I keep getting cheated on. Who am I dating? Well, I'm only dating hot narcissists, let's say, right? I'm only dating, you know, sociosexually unrestricted party animals, right?

1:02:38Maybe I can pick someone more settled down, more reliable, and maybe they don't have that same sexy cockiness and party atmosphere, but maybe they're going to be more reliable. And then on the other end, the other set of things, so that's choosing. And then maybe there's also, I mean, humans naturally perform a suite of mate retention behaviors, right? It could partially be a skill issue. It's like you're creating an atmosphere that pushes people away in your relationships. And it's like, how can I create an atmosphere that, you know, very much like you were saying earlier about your kind of personal journey with jealousy.

1:03:12We're creating an atmosphere where people want to stay. Yes. As opposed to creating a cage that they feel trapped in. Yeah, exactly. From all the research that you've done, again, you're early in your career, but you've done a lot of research and studies and you've dived into the research from a lot of other people. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah. I mean, I've done, again, I've done two studies. I'm known not for, like if I, I was telling you before, it's like if I go to an academic conference, nobody's coming up to me trying to talk to me about, you know, like, oh, I really liked that study. They want to talk about TikTok.

1:03:44Sure, sure, sure. But all the research that you've done and studied other people's work. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. You did years and years reading. What is the research that stands out to you the most around love, relationships, and intimacy in a modern world? And what is the research where you know data proves something that you still need work on personally? And you know what? I actually think I can do a blended answer here. So this is partially coming from Helen Fisher, right? Who we mentioned earlier, it would be nice to give her a shout out, but also, you know, other disciplines, the research on what we know impacts success in romantic relationships, right?

1:04:30So there are very simple things that you can do to improve your romantic connection with someone. Some obvious ones are have more sex, say nice things to them, flirt with them, but also touch them in non-escalative ways. Let's say cuddling is very good for you, being more physically generous in the sense that maybe you're in the kitchen with them, giving them a kiss on the back of the neck or something like that. Those things seem to really improve everyone's satisfaction, both yours and theirs, being very romantically generous, even with someone who you've been with for a long time. And it's interesting how effective it is from a subjective perspective if you've been in a long relationship.

1:05:15Just be like, oh, I can force it a little bit. I can be like, I'm going to give this person a compliment just for no reason right now. And watch how it changes your relationship. You feel better. They feel better. And that's, you know, that's a, you met Tim, obviously that that's part of what we're doing at Coupley, right? Where we're really trying to, so Coupley is our app that we have where you and your partner both download it. And what we're trying to do is to integrate some of the science of what makes a successful relationship into that so that the advice that we're giving, right. And the, and the activities that we're providing are ones that can actively lead to good outcomes between couples.

1:05:52Now, in terms of things that I need to work on, right? I think, I mean, that's quite a personal question and it's interesting, but I'll say that - I'm getting personal with you. I've underestimated the importance of physical attractiveness to romantic love, right? If you're in a relationship, you cannot just take your foot off the gas and start looking like a slob and hope that they'll stick around for your personality. That might be the world that we want to be in, but a huge component of being in a relationship and showing up for them is doing that, right? It's taking care of yourself. Yeah, it's taking care of yourself, right?

1:06:31And really not just at a spiritual level, but also at a physical level. It's like we see that people in relationships tend to invest less in their physical appearance, but investing in your physical appearance is... How important is being physically attractive in a long-term relationship? Well, in short-term relationships, very important. It's the most important thing, probably. To attracting the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in speed dating study, you know, we all in our surveys and questionnaires, we say, oh, I want someone who's honest, generous, loyal, kind, et cetera. Kind, smart. Yeah, smart, yeah.

1:07:00We talked about that before the show a little bit. but in behavioral studies depending on the study physical attractiveness comes out as really important as the number one factor in in a speed dating paradigm right so speed dating paradigm you get people in the real world to meet 60 seconds with a person yeah you're gonna be like am i physically attracted to this person or not but it's also kind of funny because we see it in vignette studies as well and physical attractiveness seems to have an effect on people's perception of your personality that's a very well established psychological finding yeah yeah yeah it's some people call it the halo effect which is more extrapolable and it's not exactly what we're talking about here but it's related which is this idea that if you're you know if you if you and this is kind of a caricature of it but it is but it is broadly true that it's like okay well which of these photos is sexiest to you and it's like this guy or this girl and then it's like now which of these biographies paired with the photos has the best personality it's like also this guy Right, right, right.

1:07:56So then there's also things where attractive people are perceived to be more intelligent, even though they're probably not. Yeah, attractive people are perceived to be funnier, even though they're probably not. Attractive people, you know, they get all these career benefits. But the main benefit seems to be in mating. I mean, being attractive isn't just about attracting mates, right? And we can talk about that more. But in attracting mates, it is a tremendous advantage. attractive people have more mates more desirable mates more committed and doting mates the only way that i'm aware of that you can plug in attractiveness and see oh this is actually a disadvantage is that more physically attractive people tend to be less satisfied in their romantic relationships why is that well i mean it depends on the study i'm not saying that that's a consistent result that it's like we this gets found every time but there is some indicative evidence that more physically attractive people are less satisfied.

1:08:52And that if you manipulate their perception of their own attractiveness, you make them think that they're hot, then they are like more interested in other people and that kind of thing. Because they keep looking for the greater option. It's harder to be happy with your choice of meal when everything's on the menu, right? And if you're super hot, you've got more choices, right? That would be, that's what other people have said about this is it's like, it's kind of hard to settle down when it's like people are constantly interested in you that sort of thing but again it could be that this i mean again this isn't like a this isn't what we call what we might call i mean no one in academia ever uses this phrase but like settled science right it could be that more studies are done and for anything that i've said in this podcast it could be the case that future studies are done and this turns out not to replicate or it doesn't seem to be true but based on the evidence that i'm aware of right initially, it does seem to be that physically attractive people have a harder time settling.

1:09:52But other than that, it's just win after win after win. The people, more people will be interested in you. Those people will be more interested in you and they'll also treat you better. They'll be less likely to cheat on you, more interested in giving you gifts, all that sort of stuff. Interesting. Interesting. Tons of connected findings here. What's the downside of being extremely physically attractive? Well, that's one. And other than that, it just seems to really help, right? It's like you get paid more, people think you're cooler, people think you have a better personality, people think you're funnier.

1:10:28There's a really funny study where they played, you know, they asked a bunch of people, they're like, what would you bring to a desert island, right? And that's a great, if you're a funny person, that's a great opportunity to be funny, right? And so they brought in a bunch of people and they said, you know, speak into the recorder, right? We'll video you. What would you bring to a desert island? And some people, you know, they were funny. Some people weren't. They showed people just the audio, right? And I'll be very careful here so I don't mess this up because it's kind of complex. But with just basically, they did an audio only condition and a looks and audio condition.

1:11:01So you can see who's speaking. And the unattractive people became less funny once they could be seen, right? And the attractive people were more funny in the video condition. What are the pros and cons to a woman or a man dating above or below where they're currently believed they're at in the league sense? Well, the benefits of dating someone out of your league are pretty clear, right? It's like most people like to date hot, funny, intelligent, fun people who have money and are willing to spend it on you, right? And there's nothing wrong with that. And the benefits of dating someone who's hotter, funnier, richer, more intelligent, better mental health, physically healthier, the benefits to that, it's like, okay, I get it.

1:11:58I get why you want to do that. And I think that probably everyone listening does, but the costs are more insidious in the sense that they're not immediately apparent and they might follow you through the relationship. So that hotness, for example, might matter upfront, but to you, but maybe it doesn't matter as much to you 12 months down the line when it's like those initial kind of high lust feelings have maybe cooled down a little bit. And now it's like, you know, you're out at the bar and having to deal with the fact that girls are approaching and maybe that stresses you out, right? Maybe you haven't done the internal work on jealousy yet.

1:12:39Or maybe they've got a wandering eye because, you know, they've been with better and they could do better and they're constantly getting opportunities to do better, right? So I would say that the benefits of dating someone above your league are quite clear to everybody. and that's why people sometimes pursue it. But the costs are that this is going to be someone who is very likely harder to keep. Because, and look, people who can do better generally do do better, and can you really blame them, right? And so if you're going to go out of your way to try and date someone who can do better, that maybe isn't the most strategically prudent move, right?

1:13:21it might be it might be best to i mean david buss who is the most cited evolutionary psychologist in history he i tend to agree with him that the best situation is that you think and i believe he said this in his book when men behave badly is that you think and i hope i'm not misquoting him you think that they can do better but they can't all right so you think that they're out of your league, but you're actually wrong about it. And they basically think the same thing about you. Right. So you're in a position where it's kind of crossed misperceptions where you think, oh, they're just the greatest mate ever.

1:14:02They could have anybody. And they think the same thing about you. And both of you are wrong. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, it's a good thing in the sense that you're going to be very grateful for them and think that they're fantastic, but you're not going to have to deal with the costs of them going elsewhere because they actually, they're grateful for you too. So both of you thinking, oh, I've really leveled up. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. You summarized it much better than I did. Yes, is that you are looking across the bedroom, looking across the dinner table, holding their hand on a walk and thinking, gosh, I'm lucky.

1:14:29Yeah, exactly. I've hit the lottery here and you're wrong. That's probably the best case scenario. As a behavior scientist on these topics, where do you struggle with allowing data and analysis and research and science that you're constantly studying versus being in the moment in a relationship with your partner? Do you have any struggles of just allowing yourself to be, feel, experience without thinking, analyzing, managing science in your mind at the same time? I mean, people have a very hard time believing this, but I really do put it, for the most part, put it all aside and just follow my art.

1:15:15Really? Yeah. It's like, I, yeah, I think this stuff is very interesting and some of it is helpful. But for the most part, it's, I'm a man with real emotions and those emotions drive my behavior. here, and I follow them pretty consistently. I'm not the sort of person who's like, oh, let me calculate based on my data what I should do here. Right. I've made tremendously illogical decisions because I was feeling strong romantic emotions, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right. You went against data. Yeah, I would say so. I mean - And it worked out. Yeah. And I also think that that would be, I would say that this stuff is very fun to think about.

1:16:08And some of it is really useful. But for the most part, just fall in love, have a great time and don't sweat all this. Yeah. A lot of people, they hear me talk. I get people in my comments all the time saying this, you know, Mack and Murphy is the most depressing man on the internet. And I'm like, you know, this is genuinely, it's like, this is, this is like people, people say very negative things from the perspective of like, I can't stop watching this, but it's making me very depressed. And it's like, here's my, here's the analogy that, that comes to mind. Right. I, so I like explaining things.

1:16:45Right. And I like understanding them, but it doesn't. So when I'm eating an apple, right, I'm eating the apple and I'm not thinking, oh, the sensations in my mouth feel good because my primate ancestors benefited from fruit sugars in such a way that the ones who liked it reproduced more than the ones who didn't like it. That would be a crazy thing to think. I'm just eating the apple and having a nice time, right? Right. And in the same way, when I'm, you know, having a cup of tea with my girlfriend and we're just kind of talking through the day and having a nice time, the data couldn't be further away from my heart.

1:17:27Wow. It's just not impacting me at all. That's cool, man. That's good to know that Mack and Murphy is a human being. Yeah. Not just a human thinking, analyzing scientist. I think that TikTok favors me coming across as a robot, which is fine. But it was just the one minute of me talking about data super fast. Right, right, right. That's great, man. I have no feelings. This has been awesome and fascinating, Mac. And I'm excited for your journey, where you're at. I know you're still kind of just really getting started with your own research and your science and things like that. But the content you're putting out there, I think, is inspiring a lot of people, even though you say it's depressing more people.

1:18:05Well, I don't know. I don't know if it's depressing more people. I just know that there's a contingent, especially it seems, I mean, my audience is mostly women. And then there's this contingent of men that watch as well. And then there's this contingent of young men who are struggling on the mating market, who they just see my data. And it's just more evidence that they're screwed in their minds. And I don't think that's necessarily true. But, you know, in some, like, if you're an unattractive man scrolling through your feed and my face comes up and I'm like, attractive men have more mates, more desirable mates, more commitment.

1:18:34That's that is depressing. I get it. Yeah. Well, you've got this app called Couply, which is essentially helping couples. It's not about people that are trying to get into relationships. It's people that are already in a relationship to maintain and improve their relationships. Yeah, exactly. And you're an advisor in this, and you're helping kind of create some of the curriculum in there as well. But this app is already out. Is that right? Oh, yeah, totally. So basically the concept of Couply, right? There's so many apps that try to get you into relationships, right? And this is an app that's geared towards trying to help you stay in one.

1:19:05That's great. You can think of the mating market like a revolving door where people are getting kind of pulled from the single pool and thrown into the dating pool constantly. Right. And if you think that people being in loving romantic relationships is a good thing. Right. If you if you actually like that, which I do, then you want more people to go in and less people to go out. Right. And a lot of people right now are working on the in problem. So most people are in relationships. And then there's this pool of single people, depending on your data set. But it's a minority of people. there's this small group of single people right not small sizable minority of single people and there's a bunch of apps and products that are just trying to push people in ostensibly maybe they're not trying to do that i won't say either way but there are you know these dating apps and dating websites and and you know pick up artist courses and things like that that it's like stop being single basically and then there's all these people here who basically have no help at all like it's like there's the there's the you know couples therapy if things get really bad but for the most part there's just not that many tools right certainly not on your smartphone and so what we've done with Couplate is we've created an app where which I've just come on board as you know scientific advisor part owner as well where you and your partner download the app and you both you know participate in quizzes to get to know each other better right you take courses as well to understand how to improve your relationship, deal with things like jealousy, which we mentioned.

1:20:33And what I've been brought on to do partially is just to bring the science of human mating behavior into the app so we can actually help people in a data-informed way. I'm not saying that it's partially experimental, but just trying to actually say, well, what is likely to really help people in relationships? So to give an example of one of my colleagues, one really important thing for couples is one really strong predictor of relationship satisfaction is sexual satisfaction right so couples that i don't think it should be a surprise to anybody couples that are having great sex tend to be happy with each other right and so one thing that uh you know tim johnson my ceo has done is bring on uh dr tara who's you know the real quote unquote sexpert right and she's going to be helping in the app in a similar way to me just to improve people's sex lives, right?

1:21:23So bring in fun, sexy quizzes and things like that and courses and classes. And what we're hoping, right, is that this will make mating better for the people who are paired, right? Because the people who are actually made it rather than just trying to come up with a new way to swipe your thumbs and meet people. It's great, man. Couply. Yeah. Then get it anywhere on the app store or whatever, if they go to the app store on iPhone, on Android, everything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it's still a pretty large user base already. I think we're at like 400 ,000 users. Wow, that's great. So it's definitely established.

1:21:56That's awesome. But looking to take it to the next level with some science. We're playing around with AI as well. It's going to be interesting. Very cool. Coply, make sure you guys check out the app. A couple of final questions for you, Mackin, but I want people to follow you. TikTok is your main spot. Mackin Murphy, I believe, is still your main place. Although you've got a lot of different places people can follow you. but is that where you think they should go to first or macandmurphy.org? Where should they connect with you? I think that the safest thing to do would just be to Google my name and just kind of fall wherever you land.

1:22:28I mean, I know that, you know, I'm mostly on TikTok. It's true. That's a very, you know, Gen Z space. And I'm really grateful to that group of people for boosting me in this way. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm not, I'm not a famous academic. I'm really, you know, it's, it's science communication. I do, I am a scientist. I am an active researcher, but it's really a science communication. That's another, so I'm grateful to that group. Yeah. So TikTok would be fine, but if you're, I mean, you messaged me when I had like 700 followers on Instagram, I think. Instagram is growing as well and YouTube is tiny and I have no idea why, but I'm on all of them.

1:23:08You're on all of them. So follow you, check you out everywhere. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of my interviews and maybe this will change in the next five, 10 years for you because you are so young in your life still. But this is a question I ask everyone. It's called the three truths. So I want you to imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live. You know, you could be 80, 100, 200, whatever, but you get to live your life exactly how you design it and envision it. And everything you want to create, it comes true. Personal, professional. But for whatever reason, everything you create in your lifetime from here moving forward, it has to go with you to somewhere else.

1:23:52We don't have access to it in this world. This conversation, any books, podcasts, anything you ever create, we don't have access. Your research, all of it will be gone. Hypothetical. But if you could put yourself in, into your future self and imagine those experiences happening, living the life you want to live. And on the last day, you can only share three lessons with the world. And imagine you've experienced this life. What would be those three truths that you would leave behind? Oh man, this is a really tough question. I'm very conscious of the fact that, you know, I'm young and I don't necessarily have the sort of, the sort of wisdom that would.

1:24:32This may change obviously, but what do you think you're at right now? And what do you think your future self will want to share? Okay. One piece of advice that's been really helpful to me is to, at least in terms of, at least in terms of how you behave to try and to try and live in accordance with your values as opposed to the vicissitudes of your base emotions and chance thoughts

1:25:04i would say to and this isn't original i i can't remember who who this comes from but it was also very influential on me. I'm going to be kicking myself afterwards, but someone said in a book that I was reading, they said to think more about cultivating your obituary virtues as opposed to your resume virtues. And that had a profound influence on me. So thinking more in terms of what are people going to say when I'm gone versus what am I able to say in a job interview? you and then i guess to keep it appropriate to the topic that we've been talking about today i would say that the person you pick most people were in a western context i know that you've got a global audience but i would say that most of your audience is probably western the vast majority of us are going to as you have recently pick someone enter a very serious romantic relationship and try to stay with them forever, right?

1:26:11I would say that that choice, not the first to say it, is probably the most important one that you make. And then how you interface with them, that's probably the most important relationship you'll have. It's certainly the one, I mean, most of us, our parents will pass away about halfway through life and our children will grow up, leave the house, et cetera. And it's like the person who's likely going to be with you throughout that time is your romantic partner. And so careful with that choice and then really think of it like a skill that you want to be excellent at in terms of maintaining that.

1:26:47And I say all these pieces of advice with the caveat that I am a newborn baby and I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think it's great wisdom though. And none of it comes from me. All of that is trying to cite other people. I love it though. Before I ask the final question, Matt, can I acknowledge you for being an academic researcher, a scientist, an academia, but bringing this to the masses. People in science and academics that are doing great work, but they're also not putting themselves out there for many other reasons. and I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing but I just want to acknowledge you for finding research that can be helpful and beneficial to individuals for their personal lives and their relationships to improve and doing it in a research-based way sharing with others to support them so I really acknowledge you for for starting this journey it takes a lot of courage especially coming from academics I know a lot of academics don't want to be on social media resisted they shy away from it so I'm glad you're doing it and I encourage you to continue to do more so congrats on everything man thank you final question what do you think is your definition of greatness at this this age in your life I really admire people who have real success in the home in the sense that they're I just really look up to that people who you know have their family life totally together uh that that to me yeah i mean you know status money these things are very flashy and awesome and fun to chase but in terms of what i actually look up to it's i i love it when and really respect and admire it when someone has sorted it uh inside their own home there you go mac thanks man cheers appreciate it i hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:28:41Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:29:18And now it's time to go out there and do something great.