Simon Sinek: Is A.I. a Threat to Human Connection? EP 1478

25:55They thought another plane had hit. We didn't know what it was. So I grabbed my sister and I like, and I'm thinking to myself, okay, there's going to be a blast. that's gonna come down like this." And I pulled her off the street and put her hands up against the building. And I look up and it's a huge glass. It's a shop window. And I'm like, this is not gonna be good. So I grab her and we just start running and then eventually just sort of petered out. It was a bomb scare, it turned out later. And then we made our way to the rest of the... We made our way back up town and didn't leave for two weeks.

26:25You know, we just, like everybody just started watching television obsessive. Non-stop. Yeah. Holy cow. Did you guys, did you go back to work or did it, was it like work was done for weeks? Work was done for weeks. And when it opened up, like nobody really wanted to go. And my, my office was in part of the town, in part of the New York that was shut down. Like you couldn't, they couldn't get there. Holy cow. Like they wouldn't, they wouldn't let you down there. How did that moment of being there, Ground Zero, really shape you emotionally after that, after experiencing it in person? you know i was in i was a freshman in college when i saw it on tv and it was like it was a big deal in minnesota when i was in college there it was like you know the whole city came together it was the whole thing but you were there how did that shape you my story is one of literally you know a couple million i mean there was a lot of people in new york that time um um and they're all pretty unique stories but they're all deeply touching and deeply personal for all of us i mean And you said it, I mean, it reminds you of humanity and it reminds you, you know, and I remember that was, it was September 11th was very important to me in my career because I worked in advertising and I, I struggled to go back to that stupid job and that stupid industry.

27:35Yeah. I really, once I did go back to work, I'm like, am I doing with my life? Like, it's like you, and a lot of people signed up for the military because they're like, I got to do something with my life. And I think a lot of people had the realization that the life that I live is stupid and I want to do something that matters. is. And that's when I started thinking this, this is the stupidest industry in the world. Like I come to work to help people sell they don't need, like what the doing with my life? And, uh, my entrepreneurial venture started pretty shortly after that. So I could do things my way.

28:05Yeah. Interesting. And do things with purpose and started talking about things in a, in a, in a very different way. So yeah, it was pretty formative. I mean, it took, unfortunately a big breakdown to happen for you to start seeing, maybe you'd already noticed it, but that was the, really the, the eye opening, like, okay, I've got to make a change. Go back to your original question, you know, which is why does it require these things? I think it, I think that's not interesting to me. I mean, I think that's sort of like, I get it. I think what is interesting to me is why does it go back? Right? Like when you have that life changing experience and then you, you don't make a change.

28:40You do. No, no, you do make a change, but then it runs out. So I saw this happen after, after September 11th in New York. For quite a long time, I would say months, New York was utopia. There was no crime. None. Everyone came together. Everyone came together. There was literally no crime. Everyone loved each other. Yes. Strangers, what do you need? I'm here for you. There's nothing. And the total number of racially motivated crimes in New York after September 11th was zero. So Nook Day took their anger out on an Arab population, for example. It just didn't happen. and um and i remember thinking to myself this is going to go away like we're going to forget and we're just going to go back to being new york again wow sure enough in enough time we got distracted by the short term so this covid was no different in the middle of covid we're all thinking oh my god you know i have to reevaluate my life my work-life balance you know i don't want to work like a crazy person like i used to anymore productivity is not going to be my my primary metric of whether I'm having a good day or not, that went away.

29:44We're all working like idiots again and productivity is like people look down on you now if you're not having a productive day. We forget. And again, there's the biology of the dopamine driven animal that is more driven by the short term and the visual. That to me upsets me more. It's not that you need some sort of shock to convert, but that the conversion doesn't last. And so, you were joking about my orange watch and I use symbols to remind me. And so I'm surrounded, I'm like right in the orange belt. I keep things around me to remind me that these things matter. And I tell the stories and I tell the story of going to Afghanistan with the air force.

30:33I tell the story of, you know, my experience at Centrobra element that it's not, it's in part to remind others, but it's also in part to remind me. Yeah. You know, my sister suffered a horrible tragedy many years ago where she lost her fiance. He was killed right in front of her two weeks before the wedding. Oh my goodness. And during COVID she came to me and said, I think I want to talk about my experience on the podcast because I know a lot of people are losing loved ones and perhaps my experience can help them. And, you know, again, it's in part for others, but reliving that, that horrible day with her, uh, is a reminder to us as well, that our relationship matters and our friends matter and our lives matter and long-term matters.

31:18And, you know, and, and productivity is not the primary metric of a good day. Um, and the ability to, I think, you know, it talked about the 20 year old versus the 70 year old, you know, it's the ability to shut out the noise, the peer pressure that judges you based on how much have you accomplished? How much money have you made? How many promotions have you had? What's your salary? You know, like we're judging our self worth based on what other people pay us. And sure, everybody wants to make more money. I got it. You know, um, what should we judge ourself worth on the life that we live? Um, I think we should judge ourself worth on the value we have in the lives of others.

32:12Do other people think of you as a good friend, a good sibling, good son or daughter, you know, a good father, a good mother, good colleague, good teammate. You know, I think that I would rather be, I would rather judge myself on that. And again, we're dopamine, tangible, driven animals, and it's much easier to judge myself based on number in a bank account because I can see it and I can count it. And if there's a lot in there, it must be valuable. And if there's little in there, that must be unvaluable, which is nonsense because I can tell you, I know a lot are rich people and have no value in the world.

32:50Um, um, and rich people aren't necessarily the hardest working. I know a lot of very rich people who are lazy. Um, and I don't criticize them for that. Just don't think that because someone's rich, that they're incredibly hardworking. Um, and please stop calling the homeless lazy. You go be homeless for a day. See how lazy you have to be, you know, to survive with no money, no resources. Good luck. It just, the laziness isn't, That's not it. Like you actually have to work hard at surviving when you have nothing. And I think we have all of these metrics screwed up and they're all based on what I can count and what I can see rather than the value I have in the lives of others.

33:32And by the way, you don't even get to judge that because the only way you know you have value in the lives of others is if others say you have value in their lives. Right. So that's a thing, right? I'm curious about your sister's story. that that's it. That's really heartbreaking, but also fascinating that she wanted to say, Hey, maybe I can help other people through my own tragedy, through my heartbreak, through my loss and the person she is. What was that? What was the lesson that you learned from you not going through it yourself, but witnessing someone that you loved go through a loss like that?

34:08What was the lesson for you? Um, you know, I'm, there's a civil, I talk about balance all the time. There's a silver lining in every cloud. There's a cost for everything we gain in life, but at the same time, there's goodness that comes out of every loss. My sister and I were already pretty close. I mean, it made us even closer. My family and I were, my family and us were also already pretty close. We got even closer. I think tragedy brings families together in a way that nothing else can. Perspective, the stupid stuff that we got stressed about just isn't that important.

34:51There's something called post-traumatic growth. We love talking about post-traumatic stress, but there's also post-traumatic growth. There's a lot of growth that comes out of loss and tragedy as well.

35:08I think, yeah, I think these things, I mean, you said it right at the top, right? It's the fragility of why do we need these reminders? So I think that was a big one. Yeah. And my sister's happily married. She's got two kids, built a new life. And that's super inspiring. That's correct. That people go through breakups or divorces and they think that's it, their life is over. They'll never find love again. I'm like, we're here to tell you. She created it, yeah. You can find love again. And she has a picture of her fiance say that she lost in her office on her desk. And it's like, I see it there.

35:45And it's a nice reminder for all of us, you know, um, his losses is a nice reminder to all of us that live, live, live life, love life. Um, easier said than done. I mean, you know, you and I write books about this stuff and it's hard. It is hard work. And I get a kick out of that, by the way, you know, it's very easy to be a cat. Cats don't think about being cats. They're just cats, right? But you have to actually work really hard to be a human being. Like being a good human being actually requires so much work. And that's funny to me. To be the best version of a human being is actually very difficult and requires studying and effort and risk and discomfort and all those things that I think this young generation tries to avoid.

36:32Not the work part, the discomfort part. Yeah. You mentioned about, um, you know, we shouldn't be, I can't remember exactly what you said, but we shouldn't be focusing on our, a good day being on how productive we are. We should have a different metric of what a good day is. How do we measure what a good day is then if it's not a productive day? so this is the problem with things that are hard to measure doesn't mean they don't exist it just means they're hard to measure you know um you're in love with your girlfriend uh you know show me the metric show me the number that proves to me you know that that she is the love of your life well you can't you can show me a bunch of behaviors and i can ask her if she feels secure her.

37:20She feels safe. She was seen and heard if she feels she can be her best self because the space you provide her, but I got no number. Um, so just cause you can't measure something or just because something's difficult to measure doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right. So that's, that's an important lesson. I learned that in my career too. So I had this meeting at the Pentagon. I was sitting in the foyer waiting for the general to come in when he was ready to see me. And we've all had this experience where you're waiting in a foyer, waiting in a waiting room area and somebody will come and get you and they take you to the conference room or the office.

37:54And because being quiet is uncomfortable, we fill the dead air. Yeah. How's your day? Exactly. What's going on? Exactly. Exactly. How was your flight? So hot out here. So hot out. Exactly. Exactly right. It's hallway talk. It's all it is, is designed to, to, to fill dead air. That's it. And the minute you walk in the office, it just stops. Nobody actually cared. Right. Right. Well, that's what happened to me. The general came to get me. We start walking to his office and the hallway talk begins. And he says, you know, Simon, I had everybody in my office read your book. And I said, my publisher thanks you.

38:28And he said, tell them not to bother. I had them read my copy. Total book sales, one. Total impact, huge. Compared to, I go to an event and they give away 500 free copies of the book, total book sales, 500, but they use them as doorstops and coasters, total impact zero. Maybe three or four people read it, right? Yeah. So it was that experience that I realized that I can't measure impact simply based on book sales or dollars or income or anything like that. Now, over the long term, I think you can. You know, the book is sustainable. But in the short term, it's really a useless metric. So I had to get comfortable with the fact that I was doing things that I couldn't measure the impact, but I knew had an impact.

39:09And you've heard me talk about these things before. I talk about exercise where you go to the gym and you come home and you don't see anything. And you go to the gym the next day and you come home and you don't see anything. And so you're like, it's not working. And you're in pain, right? And you want to eat a cheeseburger, pizza, and ice cream. And you keep doing it and you still don't really see anything until you maybe look down and read a scale. And sometimes that's weight isn't even the thing. You're replacing fat with muscle. Your weight might go up, right? Until people start saying to you, you look really good.

39:39You look young. But you never saw it happen. It's like you never see yourself get older until you look at a picture of you from when you were younger. Right. And and so you believe we you know, we know from the science and we know from experience that if I exercise, it's a process and it's good for me, even though I can't measure it in the short term. And if I eat well and I keep doing that, I know it'll keep me healthy for the long term of eat more leafy greens and less sugar. I know I just have to stick to this process that 100%, 100 % of the time it works. How long does it take to get into shape if you start exercising?

40:16Nobody knows. Neither does any doctor. Sometimes a little less time for some people and sometimes a little more time for others. Like we don't know. We just know 100 % that it works. And so I had to get used to the idea professionally that I'm going to do things that I know work, but I won't be able to measure them. And I just have to be okay with the fact that it works like exercise, like eating right. And so that's where, you know, learning an infant mindset and letting go of annual goals. So people are like, what's your annual goal? I don't have any because I can't predict what I'm going to achieve based on arbitrary timelines.

40:54So I have guidelines, like I run a marathon. I'd like to know the speed I'm going at. I do look at numbers. They matter to me. They help me measure speed and distance, but I don't get happy or sad if I hit or miss a number. Why do you think so many people get sad or happy based on if they hit their goals? And sometimes you hit the goals and you're still not happy. Because we're dopamine driven, short term visual animals. I mean, it's going to go in a circle, right? And because we can create, if you create a goal and you hit it, you get a shot of dopamine. That is what happened, right? Any kind of beginning, middle and end, if you reach the end, you'll get the dopamine.

41:34Like find food, found it. Oh, it feels good. I lost my keys, found them. Oh my God, it feels so good, right? this is why we often confuse on a first date. We do this like falling in love on the first date. Not really true. That's not oxytocin and serotonin. That's actually dopamine because you think you found the thing you're looking for. So you have a list of things in your head that you want in your relationship. This person seems to have a bunch of them and you have new relationship energy. All you see is the stuff that you want that's on your list. The perfect stuff. The perfect stuff. And you're literally like, I think this is the one.

42:10I think they're the one. I'm like, congratulations, you're flooded with dopamine on day one. Or day two. And you are not in love. We've all made the mistake, you are not in love. I've made it too many times. Go out a bunch more, you realize, what the hell was I thinking? And they've said that about me.

42:32We can't help ourselves. And I think that if you recognize these things, and let's go right back to the question where you started which is you talked about the condition of the human relationship right and I think when the human relationship declines when our feelings of love and friendship and closeness and deep meaningful relationships decline we become more obsessed with the external validations the clicks, the likes, the followers, you know, um, to the point where it's literally become a career. Um, I'm an influencer, which means I have more clicks than you, more likes than you, more followers than you.

43:19And that makes me an alpha in our society. You know, I went to an event recently and there was this, uh, this pretty girl who was, I was sitting in my seat at this spent and she was posing for pictures as her friend took pictures of her. And somebody leans over to me, she goes, she's a very famous influencer. And I said, you mean she's a freelance employee of an algorithm? Because that's what an influencer is. They're freelance employees for algorithms. They might make a lot of money. Some freelancers make a lot of money and they work for the algorithm. The algorithm is their boss. They have to feed the algorithm.

43:57Or they have to feed the algorithm. If the algorithm changes, it could destroy their whole income and you never get to rest. You never get to rest because the algorithm doesn't rest. You don't get to rest. And it could influence their self-worth. So the smart influencers, if they're making coin, right? Bank that coin, invest that coin because you are going to burn out or the algorithm will chain or somebody else will do it better than you. More likely you're going to burn out because nobody can maintain that pace of recording your life every moment, for content, content, content, because the algorithm never rests.

44:29Think of it like CNN. It's a 24-hour news cycle for your life. Crazy. Right? And we saw what happened to the quality of news when we went to a 24-hour news cycle. 24-hour news cycle. Right? And I think of the quality of life when you go to a 24-hour content production schedule. Your vacations, you have to bring your camera with you. You're always on. You're always on. Your relationships, you bring your camera with you. You're going to burn out. and if you've been saving your money and investing your money you'll be just fine but if you're spending that money it's not going to be good. How does someone manage their own life's motivation while making sure they're being somewhat productive to have a career that pays them an income and can cultivate growth within a career or their own business while also creating the metric of a good day?

45:23How can we balance those three of staying motivated, not being lazy, having a balanced, healthy, beautiful day while also being productive? What's wrong with being lazy? Nothing's wrong with it. What does lazy mean? What does it mean to be lazy? I think my definition of what I'm thinking about right now is more of like not caring about anything. It would be my definition of lazy, Like not caring. Caring. Okay. But maybe not the definition. But I think it's clear that we use that. Yes. Because lazy to some people might be sitting on a couch watching TV all day. Uh-huh. Right? Now, if I've been working with a crazy person - That's relaxing.

46:03That sounds good to me. That sounds good to me. Or maybe I'm watching documentaries and I'm generating ideas. Right. Yeah. That's not lazy to me. To somebody that I haven't produced something at the end of the day, that's tangible. because this thing's being produced all the time here, right? Ideas.

46:23Then, so let's be clear that what we mean by, it's not lazy, what we mean by is how do you live a life where you care, like people don't care. So I think older generations, and I count myself amongst them, our generation is pretty judgy because we believe you go to work, you get the promotion, you move you up the ladder. And we kind of understand people who don't have ambition. It's like, what do you mean you're not interested in moving up the ladder and getting more responsibility and one day achieving a leadership position? Or they feel entitled to just be a leader at 24 without putting the work.

46:58But we're pretty judgy. And I think we have to recognize that raw ambition is fine for some. and some people want to just come to work get a paycheck and have that paycheck pay for their lifestyle and they're not interested in moving up the ladder they're interested in fair compensation they it's not that they don't care they do care they still do good work they're just not career minded they they're lifestyle minded and so um we can't judge them as unproductive and lazy just because they don't have any aspirations to move up through the ladder. Um, but they can't, uh, get all if they haven't been giving like massive raises when they're just, you know, like managing.

47:49And I know a lot of people who are very happy. They make a decent living. They spend their money and they go on vacations and they save enough and it's all balanced. And it's, I think they live fantastic lives. They care. Yeah. They care about the work and they care about the quality of their work. They care about their lives and the quality of their lives. And they want the two to coexist. But remember, we said cost. There's a cost for everything. So if you want to be highly, highly ambitious and make all that money and get all that charm, that comes at a cost to your personal life. If all you want is go on vacations, well, that came as a cost sometimes to your income or your professional stability.

48:27So the goal is to find the balance that you're comfortable with. you know, some may tilt a little more towards ambition and some may tilt a little more towards lifestyle. And it's not for us to judge, it's for us to understand. And if I can understand that's how somebody on my team wants to live a life, then I'm okay with that. And as long as they do good work and they care, I think that's a very good and important business, as long as they care, I'm not going to overload them with stuff that they can prove to me that they can do it, but I want them to do good work within those boundaries. And I'm cool with it.

48:59But when we talk about, like, I think this whole idea of setting boundaries, you know, it gets a little bit misunderstood, right? Like everybody thinks you have to set boundaries, which means keep people away. I refuse to do that. That's beyond my boundary. I'm not doing that. No, no, no. That's not what boundaries mean. What boundaries means are, let me tell you what I imagine and what my limitations are. We have boundaries in relationships, right? You sit down with your partner, you co-create the relationship that you want to have. And if you're a good relationship, you discuss what the boundaries are that you both agree to obey.

49:36And it's not for us to judge the boundaries of other relationships based on the boundaries of our relationships and vice versa. Right? We create the boundaries that make us comfortable and we agree to stay within those boundaries. We can do whatever we want inside those boundaries, but we cannot step outside those boundaries. Whatever relationship style you want to have, you've got to have boundaries. And that is a discussion. And I think that is the right thing to do in a professional circumstance as well. It was always assumed that there's only one kind of boundary, which is the one I have. Right, right, right.

50:10And if you go to work till 10 o 'clock at night and work on a Saturday, you do it. Make it happen. Right? Yeah. But that's not the reality of a young generation anymore, but we're not having the discussion. what we've confused is boundaries as a conversation versus boundaries as a unilateral wall that says, I'm not doing that. And you kind of asked me to do that. It should be a conversation, which is somebody says, look, I'm not interested in moving up the ranks. I want to be treated fairly. I want to be paid fairly. I'm going to do good work, but I don't want to work late at night and I don't want to work on weekends because I want to live lifestyle.

50:45And I'll say, okay, like an early relationship, let's have a negotiation, right? Which is, I'm cool with that. Every now and then, every now and then when there's a lot of stress and things have gone haywire, or we have a huge deadline, I may need you to stay late a couple of nights or the occasional Saturday, but I'll give you Monday off. I'll make it up to you. I'm not going to take away from you without giving you back. And I won't do it a lot. I won't abuse it. But every now and then, And are you okay with that boundary? The flexible boundary, yes. Right? So I hear what the boundaries are you want.

51:20You understand the things that I need. And we come to an agreement and say, yes, those are the boundaries. We're both, we're all cool with that. We're in alignment, yes. We're in alignment. And that becomes more productive. But that's not what's happening. Usually the discussion of boundaries is me telling you as opposed to, and by the way, try that in your relationship. Not going to go well. Me telling you what my boundaries are in my relationship as opposed to a discussion where I can understand where the boundaries are coming from and maybe your past experiences, or maybe you've had bosses that took advantage of you, or maybe you were underpaid and somebody abused the fact that you were, you know, salary or whatever it is.

51:54It's just a conversation because we don't know what somebody's previous experience is that makes them create the boundary that they have now. And they're usually based on some sort of preventing something from happening again. That already happened in the past. Right. It happened to me. I'm never letting that happen to me again bingo my battery yeah yeah right like everything this is going to be a circular conversation for us it's human beings interacting with human beings yeah and like we we have to we have to do this together like the relationship is ours my girlfriend and i uh joke that you know when we first showed up in our relationship you know i wanted her to fit the blueprint that I expected of her what I expected of a girlfriend.

52:37Which was? I mean, we all have our own blueprint. Yeah, your own definition of it is. We all have our own blueprints of what we want. Right, right. And she wanted me to fit the blueprint of what her definition of what a boyfriend should be and what my definition of a relationship should look like. And we were both failing miserably to live up to each other's blueprint. Really? Of course. How can I? Were you failing after it was discussed? Here's what I... There was no discussion. Everybody shows up with a blueprint in their head and you either fit it or you don't. Right. Okay. So that's where the conflict started.

53:06Of course. And then you, they're constantly letting you down or you're picking fights or whatever it is. It didn't go very well until we sat down and be like, this is not working. And so we agreed that I have to throw out my blueprint and you have to throw out your blueprint. We like each other a lot. So we know that there's a good basis. We respect each other. We care about each other. We have all the same values. Why don't we agree to write a new blueprint together? And co-creation became our mantra. That's beautiful. Right? That the relationship will not be mine and it'll not be yours. It'll be ours.

53:42And I can no longer make a unilateral decision about what I want in this relationship because the relationship doesn't belong to me. It belongs to us. We have joint custody of this relationship. Interesting. Interesting. Right? And by the way, you can't make unilateral decisions about what happens in the relationship because it doesn't belong to you. I got 50 % of this. Right. Right. And the result has been amazing and it requires lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of communication and boundary setting and discussions. And I think professional relationships should be the same, which is I have a blueprint in my head of what an employee should do.

54:16An employee has a blueprint in their head of what a company or a boss should do. And the problem is, is hopefully that goes well. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it completely falls apart. Versus saying, I got this job. You got this, you know, you're, you got this, you're my boss. Can we end a discussion about what we want this relationship to be? I'm not going to get everything I want and you're not getting everything you want. It's not because that's the boundary. Like I declare, right? That's just not going to work. right but can we this is why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why and their values I think it's important for companies to set expectations what it's like to work here and don't give me this work hard play hard bull like any company that tells you we work hard play hard please run in the opposite direction right why not work smart play always right because working hard sounds unhealthy and playing hard sounds very unhealthy right it's like I worked too hard this week so now I'm going to get face this weekend, very unhealthy at work, very unhealthy on the weekend.

55:23Yeah. Sounds like burnout recipe. Work hard, play hard is a stupid philosophy, right? Work smart, play always, right? And the point is, that's why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why, talk about their values, be honest about them, because you'll attract people who will more likely want to work within the boundaries that you're setting, right? So for example, people often ask me about Amazon. Isn't Amazon a horrible place to work? Right? And I'll say, well, they never lied. This is the expectation. They never lied. Right. They didn't say, oh my God, it's a party here every day.

56:06Everybody's like, it's just like unicorns and rainbows. You work three hours and you go home. Right. They never lied. They're pretty public about, it's a really demanding job with ridiculous hours. And even the people who love it over the last two years, you know, like it's a really hard place to work. But if you like those conditions, then go work there. And here's some benefits that come with those conditions. And here's some benefits. Or like people talk about Steve Jobs was an... Yes. But people who work there, people who worked at Apple under Steve Jobs will all tell you that they were pushed harder than they've ever been pushed in their careers and the things that they accomplished, they wouldn't have been able to accomplish anywhere else but there.

56:45Right? Right? So if you're okay with those boundaries, then go work there. But the point is, is these companies tell you what their expectations are and what it's like to work there up front. and the reason it's important to do that is to attract people who are more likely to want to work within those boundaries. Yes. But it's still an act of co-creation, right? And if you don't like it, then you should leave. Yes. Right? Enter a different relationship. Now, if the company lied to you, that's different. Yes. Right? Then you do actually have the right to complain and point fingers. And sometimes even like at Amazon, it got a little too far.

57:21Sure. It'll reel it back a little bit. Sure, sure, sure. Why do you think, I don't want to, I mean, I guess I am generalizing a little bit, but obviously this isn't the case for everyone in the younger generation. But why does it seem like there is a conversation happening about the younger generation where there is an entitlement or demand energy towards, okay, this is my first year in this job, you know, out of college, two years out, I don't have all the skills or the experience or the results to show that I'm capable of getting this, but I demand and want all of these things that the older generation wasn't able to do.

58:03And then they constantly, not generalizing, but a conversation of them wanting raises within the first month, more unlimited time off. This kind of lazy mentality and entitlement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's multiple factors, of course. Parents is one of them. You know, it's the parenting philosophies of the generation. That was a big part of it. You know, when you and I got in trouble at school, our parents said, what did you do now? If a lot of people get in trouble at school now, their parents say, what's wrong with your teacher? Right. No, I got suspended. You know, I was like punished for weeks.

58:41Right. And, you know, again, sometimes it is the school and the teacher, but there's bad kids too where kids do stupid things. Sure, sure. No, I cheated. I cheated on a test so I got the consequence. Quite rightfully so. But it wasn't like, well, you know, they shouldn't punish you. Let's just, you know, do this or make an excuse for me. So parents is part of it. Social media is part of it because we're constantly comparing. My sister had somebody who worked for her back in a previous job and he walked into her office and said, can you give me a promotion? And my sister's like, you know, we're at home.

59:14Right. And he's like, well, hold on. No, no, no. I don't need, you don't have to give me the additional responsibility and I don't even need a salary raise. I just need the new title so I can put it on LinkedIn so my friends can see. Come on. Yeah. Holy cow. After what, like a few months? Whatever it was. But it was really about the, the, the display, the display. So it became one of those metrics like followers or likes, which is how many promotions have you had on LinkedIn? You know, and it's a false sense of accomplishment though. So, so, and it's really funny because because there's a corollary here, which is we know that when there is conspicuous displays of wealth, so name brands, when you wear your little Gooch, or you know, or you get your Chanel bag, there's a reason they put the logos on the outside, right?

1:00:03It's because we like that everybody knows, right? And there's data on this that when you wear your fancy stuff and you put it on and it makes you feel, you actually get shots of errors, you get bursts of serotonin because it makes you feel proud and like you're, you know, your higher status in the community and all of that. That's what conspicuous displays of wealth too. Makes us feel good. We also know that when you wear a fake, everybody may think that you got that Chanel bag, but you actually get no serotonin. So if you have a fake, you actually don't get the feeling of I'm the s***. Right?

1:00:42Because you didn't earn it. Because it's not real. It's not the real thing. So I wonder if it seems to make sense that when you have a fake promotion for the title to show your friends, that though your friends may be impressed because they're looking at the logo, that you actually know that it's fake. So you actually don't get a feeling of self-confidence. And I think that this is good. And in other words, there's no growth that comes from it. In fact, it might do the opposite. It might make you insecure. Wow. Right? We know this from kids who get medals who come in last. Right? Which is great.

1:01:14You gave them a medal. They know they didn't deserve it. It actually makes them not feel good. Interesting. Because they didn't deserve it. They know that. Because they, and the kids who did earn it, it's devalued because you gave one to somebody else as well. So parenting is part of it. Social media is part of it. But I think the other part of it, which is not considered by older generations, my business partner talks about this all the time, which is when I entered the work field, when you into the work field back, back in the day, we were legit. When we came out of college, we were legit idiots.

1:01:51Right. We had no clue. We thought we had no skillset whatsoever, no discernible value whatsoever. You know, we all started making photocopies. Right. And we had to look up to the people we worked for because they were going to teach us everything that we needed to know. And we learned a skillset from working and from the people who we worked for, right? That was how it worked. You have a young generation now that's graduating high school and college that enters the workforce with a skillset. And sometimes it's a skillset that the older generation doesn't have. They understand personal branding.

1:02:30They understand social media. They understand how computers work. They understand photography, video editing. They understand the algorithms. They can game the algorithms better than anybody. Right? Look at Mr. Beast. He's what, 22, 23? Billions of views. Right? His numbers are better than every top movie ever. Yeah. Right? I went to an event once where there were all these fancy actors, and Mr. Beast was there, and none of them knew who he was. and I was looking at and I was like doing the numbers which is if you took like one of the A-list celebrities and added up the total number of people that have seen all of his movies ever it doesn't even come close to like one video from Mr.

1:03:12Beast. Crazy. Right? And yet none of them knew who he was. And they all think they're hot and like no, this kid's the hot. Right. So I think that's another problem. It's not a problem but that's another consideration which is that 21 year old actually does have a skill set and they know that that skill set has value. And so they are entering the workforce knowing that they know something that you don't know. And so they're not coming in as total idiots. And though there is still the need for them to learn and there's the sense that I already know something and so you should start giving me more upfront.

1:03:51Wow. Right? And so I think it's right for older generations to recognize that they actually know stuff we don't know. And they're actually good at things, better than we were when we were their age. And that has value, just not as much value as they may think because there's still a lot more for them to learn. Sure. Or there's the application of that skill set that needs to be honed. Or maybe that skill set has no value in this job. Right, right. We should have got a job to do that. So it's - What is the, I mean, we're generalizing this, but what is the greatest skill that the younger generation has going into the workforce and the thing that will hold them back the most?

1:04:32Well, that's a good question. I think they're probably one in the same, to be honest. I think it's a complete comfort and facility with technology integrated into their lives, fully integrated, which is a blessing and a curse. I'm just a repeating record, which is there's a balance and there's a cost for everything. And the cost for that facility and that ease and that comfort with technology is deep, meaningful relationships. Interesting. Because they're on the phone 20 hours a day as opposed to connecting in person. Or worse, they think being connected and connecting are the same thing. I had a fight with a 16-year-old a couple of years ago that they, her and her friends send voice messages to each other.

1:05:17And I said, why don't you just pick up the phone and call each other? She goes, we are. I'm like, no, you're not. You're sending voice memos to each other. She genuinely believed that that was a conversation. Right? It's not a conversation. The disjointed. It's listening to my answering machine and then leaving somebody's message on their answering machine. And that's what it is just in real time. It's just quicker. Right? But I think that, and when, when we feel a little lonelier down because we have such facility with the stuff we go to the stuff to be a balm for that feeling of loss or loneliness we have it's not that different for any white white alcoholics drink or you know which is alcoholics drink only for a finite number of reasons which is social stress career stress and social stress it's pretty much it um did i say financial um and you know when when and we see it all the time right you see you know brené brown talks about this as well which is we've confused uh vulnerability in broadcasting which is making a video by yourself in your room of you crying because you're depressed or you got broken up with or whatever you know and and you just being vulnerable and then you have that expression validated by likes and views.

1:06:41That's not vulnerability. It's not vulnerability. That's simply broadcasting your emotions by yourself. By the way, you're by yourself in your room with your phone, right? That's literally what's happening. Now I challenge people who do that, go have that exact conversation, say all the same words to a friend in the same room as them. And you'll find that much more difficult. Is it harder to broadcast to a million people your emotions than it is to one person in person? No, it's easier. It's easier to do, to broadcast it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Than it is to have a conversation with a friend, a family member, or someone close to you.

1:07:19I can go on, I can hit play, I can hit record on FaceTime, and I can look in my computer and be like, I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time. Stop. Play. I'm going to do that again. Record. Wow. I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time real talk here just talking real talk you know just speaking my truth here you know and I want you guys to know that you know I'll get through this and then analyze it afterwards and then post it pick a picture to go in it you know versus going to a friend and sitting across a table from somebody and going I'm struggling and I don't know what's going on that's excruciating wow that's true vulnerability because there's no vulnerability doing it by yourself like there's a perception of vulnerability just the same way i can turn on a movie and watch an actor playing vulnerability right and i'm like oh my god they're so vulnerable well i'm watching the performance of vulnerability so for me the viewer it's real right and for and i have no doubt that the person making the video is feeling something i get it but they're creating a piece of art.

1:08:32But they're not, it's not that they're creating a piece of art, it's that they're not, the thing that will help them, the thing that will help them get over that feeling and feel safe is not the number of likes that validate the expression. The thing that'll make them feel safe is for them to take the, have the incredibly uncomfortable, awful conversation with somebody where they say the same things and that person sits there and goes, I got you i got you right and like i remember i have a friend who's he's he's an impressive if he's an impressive dude and um and i love him to death and i didn't want to show him vulnerability because i'm so impressed by him i wanted him to be impressed by me he's so strong i want him to know that I'm strong, right?

1:09:26I don't want him, and it's not because I intellectually understand the importance of vulnerability, but it's still, I want my friend to like me. My amazingly impressive friend that I think is super impressive to think I'm impressive too, and I'm on his level. And I remember I was struggling, and I called him up, and I go, I'm not in a good place. And he was like, what do you got, bud? What do you need? and um i remember we were uh i were out once and i said to him you know you're one of those friends that i would call in a hard time and he said to me i'd be mad if you didn't and we have this magical relationship now where we open up to each other and we open to each other a pretty and it doesn't at all do any damage to what i think about him in fact it makes me think more of him that's beautiful the interesting thing not to interrupt you there but the interesting thing that you said intellectually, I think all of us think, I want to be on their level.

1:10:21I want to be strong or make sure that I'm representing myself in a way that is at their level. And if I'm vulnerable or showing that I'm struggling, then will I be less than that? Correct. Why is that when actually vulnerability brings us closer together? Well, it's also a story we say in our own heads, right? Because it turns out he's not all buttoned up. And it turns out he's not got every answer. And it turns out everything he touches doesn't turn to gold. And it turns out he's got insecurities. And it turns out he's got fears. It turns out he's got anger and he's got frustration. And he's got all those things too.

1:10:58It turns out he's human. And this is where the relationship became beautiful, which is, he is more impressive than me. He's a much more impressive guy than I am. And I love him to death and he loves me to death, not because we're comparing our resumes, it's because we trust each other in old space for each other and i've seen him at his worst and he's seen me at my worst and that's fine and i think that's what social media doesn't allow again forget about the people who they're broadcasting to i have absolutely you've helped me seeing this has helped me i know that when i broadcast things it helps people i know that.

1:11:37And that has value. I'm talking about the person who's making the video, who's struggling themselves, how they find safety and salvation. They will not find it in the broadcast. They will at some point have to go to a friend and ask for help. And they can still make the broadcast to serve others, not anti the broadcast. But that person is kidding themselves if they think that That is the way to find peace and calm in a life. Yeah. There's something that I wanted to go back to. I'm loving all this, by the way. Thank you for sharing so openly. Which is about the breakdown in life. And the breakdown, the scenario, the situation that causes us to either fall apart or come together or start to look differently about our life, ask what's the point of the direction we're heading.

1:12:31I'm curious in your mind again there's been a lot that's happened in the last few years pandemic war and AI which is being talked about more obviously it's been around for a long time but now it's being talked about more yeah yeah and it's moving at a pace that's ridiculous which is very very scary I don't mean to diminish it when the internet showed up the adoption for internet was years the adoption for most technologies is decades this thing is increasing its potential and its speed in weeks and months, which is not giving us time to consider that balanced equation. That's the part I find scary, is not the technology, the speed of adoption.

1:13:11Right. The social ripples. And social ripples. Yes. And remember, governments have to adopt it. They don't have a choice. Right. Right? So like nuclear weapons, right? When nuclear weapons showed up, governments had to, whether they wanted to or not was irrelevant. They had to because if the other one does, we don't have a choice. Right. It's the same thing here. All of the defensive and offensive weapons and AI, governments have to, they have no choice. But we actually do have the ability to set pace and we're not. And there is fear of being left out. There's massive FOMO. So one company's investing in it heavenly.

1:13:43The other one's like, we have to invest in it heavenly because they are, so we have to. And so there's FOMO and fear of being left behind. And some of it's true, but not necessarily the haste and And blindness, which we're throwing the technology at our companies and our businesses. And I think history will always repeat itself, which is when you do something blindly and too quickly, at some point it's going to break. Right. Right. And so we don't know what or how that looks, when it's going to happen, but it's probably going to happen. Right. I mean, think, you know, nature abhors imbalance and seeks equilibrium at all times.

1:14:19This is why when this is stock market crash, we call it a correction. Right. Because there is imbalance and it finds correction. That's how mother nature works. She always finds balance at some point. You don't know when, but it's going to happen at some point. You don't know when, but it is going to happen. And I think that the imbalance that we're creating with the speed of the adoption of the technology that we don't fully understand, the balance is going to happen. I don't know how. I don't know what. I don't know what it's going to look like. No one can predict it. There's a lot of people trying and there's no way to slow it down because now the genie's out of the bag.

1:14:55No one's going to be like, you know what? I'll be the one to slow it down. Right. Let's stop this. Yeah. Yeah. You know, government can put some guardrails on. Europe is actually attempting to put some guardrails on, which I think is helpful. Interesting. Yeah. America, not so much. Right. You know, we think guardrails are anti-capitalist, which they're not. They're just guardrails. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We can debate where the guardrails are, but guardrails are good. Sure. Sure. Sure. You mentioned early on, I like that you talked about the fear that causes a lot of social ripples with these different things that happen, right?

1:15:26Especially around AI or around pandemics or around war, right? You've mentioned a few of these things. With everything we've seen in the last few years, which one do you think will cause more fear and more emotional reactions or social ripples between Another virus or pandemic-like experience? War or AI and the acceleration of AI? I think income inequality is bigger than all of them. What is that? Income inequality. Income inequality will create more social ripples and fear than these three. Yeah, just look at what's been happening over the past 30, 40 years. The rise of populism, the rise of strongman leaders, the cynicism about democracy, And it's not that democracy or capitalism are bad.

1:16:21It's that this version of democracy, this version of capitalism, not democracy, this version of capitalism that we have that was largely engineered in the eighties and nineties by people like Jack Welch and Republican and democratic presidents at the time, is woefully imbalanced and it is lopsided. The stock market used to be a place that the average working American could share in the wealth of the nation. And now the stock market has become the bastion for the few. CEOs who are incentivized by the price of inequity work hard to make other people rich and often don't include the workers, or worse, use the workers to help balance those books, the use of mass layoffs, which was a relatively modern phenomenon, didn't exist in the United States prior to the 1980s.

1:17:14Really? Didn't insist. I mean, there were layoffs, but not to balance the books. They were used for existential reasons. Like we're going bankrupt, we have to do something drastic. Right. Versus, oh, we missed our numbers, you lose your job. Wow. That didn't exist. And so we have a very woefully, a flawed version of capitalism that is not the capitalism that made America great, nor is it capitalism, the kind of capitalism that Thomas Jefferson was enamored by, as written by Adam Smith. And I think that disparity, and we're seeing it play out now in the strikes, the writer's strike and the - Actors strike.

1:17:53And the actor's strike, which is people working hard to make a small group of people very wealthy and being left out. Nobody minds that a CEO is highly paid. The problem is, is that it's the system of how they get paid that you're not including and bringing people with you. That's the problem. That you're making money off of their backs without them letting feel like they're sharing in the spoils that they helped create. Right. That's the problem. And we know how we got here. It's because, again, this goes back to metrics, right? The way we measured money was very easy. This is sort of going off on a tangent, if we really want to talk about it.

1:18:35I like your tangents. you know which is i used it's very easy right and this has been talked about this is not this is not a new idea um um i would broadcast a tv show and i could count how many people viewed it right ratings and then and then i could get picked up for syndication and i can count everything and i can give you a percentage of all the things that i can count right um whereas when we went to streaming and everybody, when streaming first showed up, they thought it would be minor. So they didn't, it wasn't built into the contract. It was considered an alternative media. Don't worry about it.

1:19:11Yeah. But now when something gets a billion views, um, there's no direct advertising dollars applied to that show and there's no syndication applied to that show. And even though that show may, we can't tell that that's what, why somebody subscribed because the subscription made the money, not the show, even though the show gets more views than everybody else. And Netflix and none of the streamers tell you the numbers of the views, which is really a bad idea because it goes back to metrics and numbers, which is if you can count it, you need to share the numbers so that we can establish a value.

1:19:50And if we can establish a value, we can say what it's worth. Right. Right? So hiding numbers is never a good thing when it comes to playing with people's income. What do you think capitalism should be, the new definition of capitalism should be then? Well, it's everything that I write about in every single one of my books. The infinite game. The infinite game, leaders eat less and start with why, all are attempting to chip away. That, you know, start with why was that companies should be driven by a higher calling and higher purpose, not just making money. It's totally anti Milton Friedman and Jack Welch.

1:20:26I mean, I hope to undo everything Jack Welch ever did. You know, Leaders Eat Last was about taking care of the people in our care. You know, that leadership is not about being in charge, but taking care of those in your charge. And the infinite game is recognizing that this game of business cannot be won, so stop playing it like it's a finite game. And stop using people as pawns and start being grateful that they're helping you advance something bigger than yourself. and I lay it out there. I lay out what the principles of capitalism should be in the chapter of work on Milton Friedman. I offer an alternative, a list of hierarchy and priorities.

1:21:07Can't remember what they are. I'm hearing you say, go ahead, yeah, feel free to shared. Chapter five. I don't know what pages are them. Capitalism should advance a cause, protect people, and generate profit. In that order. One more time. Advance a purpose, protect people, generate profit. So the responsibility of business is to use its will and resources to advance a greater cause than itself, protect the people and places in which it operates, and generate more resources so that it can continue doing all those things for as long as possible. An organization can do whatever it likes to build its business so long as it is responsible for the consequences of its actions.

1:21:55That is, for me, what capitalism should be. And we're not seeing that right now. No. It's the opposite order. It's generate profit, you know, advance a purpose on your website. It's called marketing and protect people, you know, when it suits us. Interesting. No, no. Like version of capitalism we have right now is pretty bastardized. So the, I'm hearing you say the income inequality and where that's heading is a greater fear and risk than another pandemic, AI, and war. Whenever you have a huge delta between those that have and those that don't have, you have revolution. Wow. But this is happening all over the world, not just in America, right?

1:22:45Of course. I mean, no other countries. There's a rise of populism around the world. There's a rejection of democratic values because they've confused democratic values and the version of capitalism we have, they've conflated the two. Right. So what usually happens in a scenario like this and how long does it take for that thing to occur? What has history taught us? There's going to be a revolution. Really? Around the whole world? Come on. No. I mean, come on. I mean, January 6th, these are not the science. I mean, listen to the messaging of the populists. It's the haves versus the have nots. Yeah.

1:23:22You know? and um the left needs to listen you know they're they're quick to the left and the right are both quick to criticize the politics the leaders of each other's movements but they're missing the they're not listening to why people are interested in those messages they both think both sides think the other side are sheeple and both think the other side are blind deaf and dumb And yet neither side is paying attention as to why they both have their own rabid followings. And the problem is most of the country is moderate. Most of our nation is pretty moderate. Most of our nation is pretty fine.

1:24:07In between somewhere, yeah. We're willing to find compromises. Not really, you know, reasonable. and yet the angry extremes on both sides have seemed to set the tone. They're playing a finite game. But, you know, I'm genuinely afraid of, and I don't know how it looks or when it happens, but I think when we start accusing each other of being traitors, I mean, the left and the right literally say, call each other traitors or un-American. I don't know. That's not good. That's not good. That's not good. Not good. I've got a few final questions for you. This has been powerful. I'm so glad you're here.

1:24:51Thank you for opening up and sharing. We could go on for hours. This is a question I asked you before that is called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It is that last day on earth for you. And you get to live as long as you want, extend your life as long as you want, and create and do all the things you want to do. Yeah. But for whatever reason, it's the last day and you've accomplished everything or not and just lived beautiful days without accomplishments. But you can't take our excuse me. Everything you've created has to go with you. This conversation gone. Your books, they're gone.

1:25:28It's on to another world or somewhere else. They're not in this world. Everything you've ever said or done, we don't have access to anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons. I call it the three truths. Three things that you know from your experiences are true to you that you would want to leave behind as lessons to the world. What would be those three truths for you?

1:25:56Really love the people who love you. Really love them. Learn all the human skills that you need to be a good human being. um who's being human is hard and um and have as much fun as possible and what i mean by having much fun as possible doesn't mean playing video games and taking vacations every moment but make jokes make joke have a sense of humor like in in it you can't you can't be angry and laugh at the same time you know Stephen Colbert talks about this and I you can't like there's something magical in a high stress situation as a joke and you know whether it's gallows humor or whether it's you find the absurdity in something you know it's like just make sure to maintain your sense of humor yeah so love those who love you desperately learn the human skills to be a great human being and make sure that you appreciate that life really is fun.

1:27:07I've over a thousand conversations. I don't think I've heard them in that way, those three truths. I've asked it every time. And I didn't expect that from you. So that was really beautiful. I appreciate you sharing those three. I want to acknowledge you, Simon, for your constant personal growth. No, thank you. Your constant personal growth. You know, I've, I've watched you for years, you know, be a phenom on the internet with Ted talk and books and all, you know, all the things and accolades. Uh, you know, I've been at events with you. I've had you on the show. We know a lot of the same people and, you know, uh, but I really love just watching you personally grow as a human being, speak about these things, loving people desperately, um, having as much fun as possible, you know, being someone who's looked at as an intellectual, and extremely smart, talking about humor and fun is awesome for me to hear.

1:28:00And being the best human you can be, knowing that this is a challenging existence or it can be unless you choose to learn skills and overcome it. So I'm really acknowledging you for your personal growth. Thank you. And hope now that we're more neighbors, I'll run into you more frequently and get to give you more hugs. So I really acknowledge you for everything. And I also acknowledge you for this, which I think is interesting. asked you before you came on here today. I acknowledge you for not having something to be productive in right now. Of course, you've got, you know, book and your podcast and, you know, content that you're creating, but you're not like, I'm working on this massive project and I've got to do it.

1:28:39I've got this deadline and it's got to be this way. You're like, yeah, I'm allowing ideas to come to me. I'm allowing things to form. I'm building deeper relationships. I'm connecting with my girlfriend, I'm doing these things. I acknowledge you for that because I think it's hard at times to allow ourselves to not be overly productive and always creating something and always trying to strive to be on top. So I acknowledge you for being in that space. I think it's a beautiful thing too. Well, that's very nice of you. Um, um, I think it's important to know who you work for, right? So I would only have stress to come up to write another book if I believed that I worked for my publisher.

1:29:22But I don't. And I would only have stress about the amount of content creation I have to produce if I believed I worked for the algorithm. But I don't. I work for the people who share this world with me. I work for my friends. I work for my family. I work for the people who see the world the way I see it. And I try to work very hard to live a life of service. And the way I manage my social media is I say something that I think is additive. I never pile on, because there's no point. I'm very prescriptive that I will speak if I have something that I believe is additive. And if I have nothing to say and if I have nothing to write, then I'm going to say nothing and I'm going to write nothing.

1:30:10And I think you have to know who your customer is and then be fiercely customer oriented. And I use the word customer in quotes. Like if you're a parent, You know, your kids are your customer, you know? If you're a teacher, your students are your customer. You know, if you're a nurse, your patients are your customer. And I think you have to be fiercely, fiercely customer focused. And, um, um, in my, in my chosen line of work, my customer is the army who chooses to stand shoulder to shoulder with me to build the world that we imagine. Wow. A world in which people wake up every single morning, inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.

1:30:44Hmm. Yeah. I love it, man. And I want everyone to support you. And you've got a number of great books. The Infinite Game is one that I think the themes have been spoken about throughout here over and over again of how we can start reimagining our own personal lives or career industries, you know, everything, the world. So I want people to get this. Start with why, obviously, is that as a phenom that everyone should have as well if they haven't got it. Your SimonSinney.com has got all your content and information. I love your Instagram and your LinkedIn is massive as well. if you guys are over there.

1:31:17It's all focused on human skills. Exactly. So if you want to develop better human skills, follow wherever you're on social media. All the places. All the things. All the things. The podcast, bit of optimism. You can check it out there if you want to go deeper as well. But how else can we be of service to you today? Do the things. Like the being of service to me is to... I'm one person who puts out a vision of the world and some tools to help build it. But until leaders lead with those tools, until we, and by leader, I don't mean those in charge. I mean those who choose to take on the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise, which can happen at alien level inside an organization or in our society.

1:32:00And what I need people to do is do it because my work is intangible and I need people to make it tangible. Yeah. Final question. Yep. What's your definition of greatness? I think it's everything we've talked about. My definition is greatness is living a life of service. And, you know, the people that I think are great devoted themselves to the lives of others. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast.

1:32:42If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcasts and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:33:17And now it's time to go out there and do something great.