The COMMUNICATION Expert: Do THIS To Connect DEEPLY with ANYONE! (Become MAGNETIC) | Charles Duhigg

24:26I won't say who it was, but I was trying to be, you know, more playful and open and, you know, flexible. And they eventually got there. But in the first 10 minutes, I like not intentionally interrupted, but I just kind of added to something and, you know, followed up with a question while they were still finishing something. But it's kind of how I do a lot of things. Yeah. And he goes, you know, make sure you don't do that with the next person. He kind of like cued me. Like, let me finish first. Right. I was like, OK, well, I'm going to make sure I let him finish. Yeah. Before I add something.

24:58Yeah. OK, cool. I know what the rules are now. I know the rules. Yeah. And he was kind of like, hey, you know, it was like, which we, right. It was kind of playful, but it was kind of like, okay, like I don't know him. So, okay. All right. I want to make sure we get a good interview. So I'm going to play by your rules. Well, and oftentimes what happens at the beginning of a conversation, even without us recognizing we're doing it, is that we conduct experiments. Right. I might say something casual to you and then I pay attention. Right. Do you laugh back? I might interrupt you. And if you say like, don't do that again, I'll notice.

25:31Right. And the thing to remember is that I don't think it was a, it was not a mistake that you did that. It was not even a failure. Because the whole point of a conversation at the beginning is to work out those rules. Experiment with it. Experiment with it. And if every, like my wife is a scientist, if every experiment is a success, you're a terrible scientist, right? You want to do experiments that fail and succeed. That's when you're learning. and the fact that this guy told you that, it means that he actually told you something about how he communicates. He likes, yeah. And as an interviewer, I don't know if you do this when you're doing research or interviewing people as well.

26:09For me, I like to tell people when they ask me about interviewing or podcasting, this is my 11th year now of doing this show. It'll be 11-year anniversary probably when this episode comes out. I always tell people that the pre-show is the show. us talking for 10 minutes before we turned on the camera really determines a lot of how successful or unsuccessful the episode will go or the energy or the flow is based on the connection when someone enters the door the experience and the environment you create for them whether that's you or the actual environment your ability to see them yeah before going on and if they feel heard and seen.

26:53Yeah. That is the show. And vulnerability, right? 100%. And I think what, so there's another idea that's really critical in the book and that is critical to what we've learned in the last decade, which is known as emotional reciprocity. That when I show you something vulnerable, you need to show me that you've heard it. But if you share something vulnerable in return, we will feel closer. Really? We really can't even, we can't, it's like hardware. We can't not feel closer. So one person shares something vulnerable and the other one does not at least show empathy, even if they don't share something vulnerable about them, but if they show some type of...

27:31Well, so showing empathy is a form of vulnerability. Okay, right. So if you say like, you know, my dad passed away and I say, oh man, I totally understand. My aunt died 12 years ago. Right. That's not empathy. That's not empathy. That's not... I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you. I'm not trying to share it. But if you said, you know, my dad passed away and I said, oh man, I like, I know how hard that is. I'm really sorry. And like, I've struggled with it. I'm sure you are if you want to talk about it. That's all it takes for me to reciprocate that vulnerability and to say to you, like, I welcome your vulnerability.

28:05I am trustworthy with it. And more importantly, like, I'm willing to go there with you. right that's when all of a sudden we know the rule we know the rules of this conversation we know that and and when we were talking before the show and you know i asked about martha and i asked about your life and like you're very open and you're very you're very easy with your vulnerability and just hearing that like it tells me the rules right that like you can be open yeah it's this is a conversation where we can be honest with where we're honest and real and once you have that you're exactly right. The rest of the conversation is so much easier.

28:42Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of it is the first interactions you have with someone and kind of experimenting so you can understand the rules, the quiet negotiation. What are the rules of this dialogue going to be? Yeah. Speaking of honesty and challenging conversations, how can a super communicator that might be avoiding hard conversations with someone that as a friend or a business colleague or their partner, their intimate partner, how can a super communicator, I guess, navigate conflict, disagreement, or challenging conversations to create a win-win? It's a great question. Right, and there's a couple chapters on it, and it is sort of one of the biggest questions.

29:28And this is particularly in the last couple years. There's a chapter about the story of what happened at Netflix because there was an executive at Netflix a couple years ago in a meeting used the N-word. And very quite rightfully, the rest of the company was like, this is totally unacceptable. But it threatened to actually divide the company because this was a popular executive. Some people were like, look, he didn't mean it as a slur. He was using it as an example. And other people were like, this is unacceptable. You can't like - He's got to be gone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, and it took four months for them to fire him.

30:02But at that point, the company was on the brink of civil war. And so the culture wasn't good. The culture, the culture was just tearing themselves, tearing them apart. So they, they hired this woman, Renee Myers, who's an amazing woman to come in. And the first thing that she did is she said, okay, look, instead of avoiding conversations about race, we're going to have conversations about race, but here's how we're going to do it. We're going to start each conversation by acknowledging this is going to be awkward. Like, and by the way, I'm going to make a mistake. You're going to make a mistake.

30:34we're going to say things that like don't really come out the way we intended. It's going to be hard. And number two, everyone at this table deserves to be at this table. So simply, you know, obviously someone who's black belongs to this table. But if you're white, you also have a racial experience. And like, we need to hear that experience. You can testify, you can witness how your life has been as an expert. and everybody at the table has an equal right to talk about their own experiences. And that worked at Netflix. I mean, it actually worked really well. It brought the company back together.

31:15Now, when that tough conversation you're having with an intimate partner or with a business partner where there's some conflict there, think about how differently it goes if you sit down and you say, something serious I want to talk about. Let me just acknowledge this is going to be like awkward and I'm going to say some things that I don't... They're going to come off dumber than I mean them. Yeah. And I'm just going to ask for your forgiveness in advance. And my goal here is to really understand where you're coming from because you belong at this table as much as I do. Send me that conversation.

31:50There's three things that happen there. One is courage and vulnerability. It's like, hey, I want to have a challenging conversation with you. So it's like you're being vulnerable and you're being courageous. Absolutely. You're talking about something challenging. The second thing is really saying, it's going to be hard and I'm going to make some mistakes. I may not say everything, so we're asking for forgiveness, which is also vulnerability. And then I guess really the third thing is like, I really want us to come to a good place at the end. I want there to be a win-win from this challenging conversation.

32:23I think Chris Voss talks about a similar concept around that. the former FBI negotiator, his book, I think, Never Split the Difference, where he's like, the best way to negotiate something challenging is to say, this is going to be a hard conversation. You're not going to like it. Starting with something around saying it as it is, as opposed to skirting around the challenge, is at least setting an expectation. And people would rather know what the expectation is going to be. It's like when a doctor says, it's not going to hurt that much, but then they pinch you and you're like, ah, that was really painful.

32:58Right. It's like I did a, I had to do like an implant surgery, like with a fake tooth, right? Oh, wow. And because I had teeth removed when I was younger. And so they put these teeth in the last couple of years. And I asked the doctor, I go, how painful is this going to be? And he's like, it's going to hurt. He was like, it's not going to be comfortable. He's like, there's going to be pain. as opposed to I really wanted them to say like, yeah, it's not going to be that bad. You're going to be fine. He goes, it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be painful. And I was like, ah, this, I don't like knowing the anticipation of the pain, but when the pain was happening, it wasn't as bad.

33:38It was painful. But I met the expectation because he communicated clearly. Exactly. And so it made me trust him more. It made me feel safer because I knew what to expect. And so when you're talking about this, like having this, I guess, directness of like, hey, this is going to be a hard conversation for me, maybe for you, but I want us to win at the end of this. That's totally, and that's key. And I mean, you know, the last five years, like there's been a lot of conversations about race, right? And the difference between going in and saying, I want to acknowledge upfront that you as a black woman have had very different experiences than me as a white man.

34:20And I want to, I want to really understand you versus having a conversation about race that we've been forced into where we never acknowledged that actually we're talking about race. that first conversation goes so much better. And the same is true of gender, of religion, of politics. Like, you know, when you sit down with your crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table, like if you say to them, like, Mike, like we have a difference of opinion, but like, I really want to understand where you're coming from. It changes the entire dialogue. When you were doing the research for super communicators, what was the thing that stood out to you the most?

34:56That you either were doing well and it was a confirmation, to what you were doing or something you realized, oh, I've had this whole thing wrong. And a lot of people have this thing wrong. And if we just started doing more of this, there would be a lot more harmony in relationships. I think the biggest thing, two things. The first is listening for and engaging with people's emotional conversation. So think about how frequently like you're at work and you talk to someone and you're like, how was the weekend? and they were like, oh man, my son graduated and I was just so proud of him. Or actually it was a tough weekend.

35:35Like some stuff came up. And our instinct is oftentimes to go straight to the practical. Be like, sorry to hear that. Like, let's talk about next year's budget, right? Let's get down to work. But if you just take a beat and you match that person and you say, like, tell me about your son. Like, I can't wait. Like, tell me what he's like. where you say like, I'm sorry that it was like a tough weekend. Like I've definitely had tough weekends. If you ever want to talk it over with me, I'm here for you. That engaging that emotional conversation, allowing yourself to recognize it and saying like, this is actually an important part of communication.

36:12That I think has been super powerful. Yeah. Just because I think I, in 2017 I was at the New York Times and they made me a manager. How was that? well I thought I would be great at it I was like you know I have an MBA I've had bosses before yeah and I know it was okay at the logistics part of it I was a terrible manager I was so bad because because of the communication part and usually what it came down to you're a writer you're a journalist I know award-winning expert at this believe me I like it got me off guard too And again and again, the thing that happened was that somebody would come and they would basically say, I want to talk to you about something emotional and I would treat it as something else.

36:59You went right to practical or something. Or social or like problem solving. Yeah. And if I had just slowed down and said, okay, look, just tell me how you're feeling. Like, I just want to like understand how you're feeling and hear it. It would have changed everything. I would have been such a better manager. So that's the first thing that has really shaped how, shaped how I communicate. The second thing is, so we, human superpower is communication, right? The reason we survive as a species is because we can communicate. The reason why we've thrived and we have instincts on how to communicate.

37:44And the other thing I've learned is to be a super communicator means learning some stuff, right? Learning tools or skills. But the goal of those tools or skills are actually just to remind us of what our instincts are. Because our instincts are really, really good. And when we screw up, it's usually because we don't listen to our instincts. We don't listen to our gut. Yeah. Yeah. Instead, we're like, well, I'm supposed to behave this way. I'm supposed to be a macho or I'm supposed to be X or Y or Z instead of like stopping and being saying like, what am I authentically experiencing right now? Because if you share that, you're probably going to connect with the other person.

38:24Yeah. So I've tried to indulge that more. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. We've talked about looping for understanding. We've talked about deep questions. We've talked about the three different types of conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about how to have a conversation that turns into abundance of opportunities for you. Is there a way to draw from your work in this book that people could say, if I just started doing this thing, it would unlock a level of abundance, financial abundance, better opportunities for me. is there a certain style of conversation I should be having a way I should be listening that unlocks abundance is there anything from your research yeah so so let me let me ask you a question because I know that this podcast started with you looking for mentors right you going out trying to learn yes so when you approach someone before before you're a known you're like a young guy you're reaching out to these like very successful folks what do you do that gets them to take some time to tell you their insight you mentioned something in this book that i that i think you're going to be referencing here in a second which is about really creating relatability on different things from either the past or whatever it might be and so originally i would reach out to people through linkedin this is in 2007 8 and 9 for my other business that i had and i would reach out to them, leaders in kind of like the local community in Columbus, Ohio, CEOs and executives.

40:02And I would email people originally and just say, hey, I'm inspired by what you've done. Can you help me with some advice type of conversation? Yeah. And I wouldn't give many responses, maybe a couple of like, hey, I have no time for you or not right now. And then I started just experimenting other things. And I started really researching the person I was going to be messaging and emailing. And on LinkedIn, you could see where they went to school, different clubs and associations they're part of, awards, hobbies, interests, also different connections that they had with you, second and third degree.

40:36So I started saying, well, let me try to find different things we have in common. And in the first sentence or two, I would say, you know, hey, Charles, I see we both live in New York City, you know, whatever it is, any commonality at all. We and nine other million people. Exactly. We're both authors. I've written a book. And I see that you like running half marathons. And I just ran my first marathon last year. Whatever it would be, I would try to find three levels of commonality. Yeah. And when I started to do that, it was almost like every person was replying to me and everyone would give me an hour to either jump on the phone, meet in person, like whatever I asked, they would give me time.

41:21Now, based on that conversational time and how I showed up and being genuine and asking the right questions, that determined what was going to happen next. But it got my foot in the door to at least have a conversation by creating that level of common interest from shared experiences of past. and the better I got at researching and understanding based on a profile and able to communicate our shared interests, the more people wanted to connect with me. So here's what I hear you saying. Yes. And tell me if I'm getting this right. Because if you email me and you're like, we both live in New York.

42:00Yes. We both run marathons. I'd be like. It's more direct. Right, right. Let's say it is more direct. Let's say like, you know, I see that you're on a softball league. I played softball. That's actually not like, there's no reason that I'm necessarily going to reply to your email because we both love softball. That's true. What you're really saying is I'm proving to you that I want to connect. I'm making an overture. I'm not just dropping you an email because you're a famous person and you're like, I said 30 of them today. I actually spent some time. I'm making what's known as a bid for connection.

42:33So one of the things that super communicators do is they make these bids a lot. oftentimes without us realizing it when i asked if matt laughed a lot one of the things we know is that super communicators laugh much more i saw that near in the book yeah but they don't laugh in response to things that are funny uh-huh they laugh just because they want to show you that they want to connect interesting and when you laugh back you're showing you want to connect back you had a i think you had some research in there or something it was like i can't remember what those percentages but most people just are laughing not because there's something funny right 80 of the time we laugh not in response to humor, but to show someone else that we want to connect with them.

43:09And when they laugh back, they show us that we want to connect. The other thing about super communicators, and I love that you mentioned that when you got together with them, you asked the right questions. Super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person, but it doesn't feel like an interrogation because a lot of the questions are things like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me about that. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah. Tell me more. How did that work like that? Yeah. Yeah. What did you think about that? Why did you do that? There's questions that are so fast that we don't register them as questions, but what they're doing is, again, they're proving that we want to connect.

43:43Showing interest. Showing interest, showing listening, showing that I am opening myself. There is this thing about vulnerability that vulnerability tends to be the loudest expression we can make. If someone is saying something vulnerable, we cannot help but listen to them. Wow. All of reality TV is based on this principle, right? Like our brain is hardwired so that when we see vulnerability, we have to stop and listen. And when you say to someone, I see that we both love softball and like, can I have a couple of minutes? You're exposing a vulnerability and they listen to it. Interesting. And it makes you seem trustworthy.

44:23So that's the thing that I would say is that the, the thing that creates abundance is to put those bids out there to, to make that first offering and to, to laugh at, to, to laugh at someone's joke, to show them you want to connect, to ask them a deep question, to say like, you know, like I understand that you probably don't want to talk to someone like me, but like, I've done a little bit of research about you and, and you just seem so interesting to me. Like, can I just ask you a couple of questions? Right. That vulnerability, that, that authenticity, we hear that. Yeah. I, I understand you're probably the busiest person.

45:00you probably have no time for someone like me. Right. I would just love to be able to ask you like two or three questions. Absolutely. And by the way, we both - You're probably going to say no, but you know, I'm just - And by the way, we both went to this high school, right? Right, it's just something. By the way - It's something. It's something. By the way, the fact that we both went to that high school doesn't mean anything, but the fact that I looked up what high school you went to - shows that I genuinely want to connect. And it's fascinating. I don't know if you're like, where did you go to college?

45:23I went to Yale. Yale. Yeah. I don't know if someone reached out to you who's like, I don't know, 24, who just graduated Yale, who's like, wrote at the Yale newspaper or whatever, and they reach out to you and there's just like, you know, I know that you probably don't have time right now because you've got all these things going on, but I'd love to have five minutes of your time. You're probably, and we both went to Yale, you're probably more likely to reply to that person than someone at Harvard who said the same thing. Right. And it's not - Just because of the association. And it's because they sought me out.

45:55They know enough about me to know that we have this thing in common. The fact that I went to Yale, I haven't been to Yale in 20 years, right? It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. It's not part of my identity. But the fact that they did the research to figure out where I went to college. So if they went to Harvard and they were like, or they went to University of New Mexico and they say like, I saw that you went to Yale and like, I've always admired Yale. And I'm just wondering if I could ask you a couple of questions. Literally someone did this three days ago. No way. And I got on the phone with them and I was like, don't become a journalist.

46:25The industry's disappearing. But it is. And it doesn't matter what you say as much as it matters what's behind what you say. The message I'm sending. The same way that when I ask you a question and you respond vulnerably to me, and then I reciprocate that vulnerability, we're making an offer to each other. Yes. And we're seeing if that offer is accepted or not. Right. And asking someone for advice is not an offer. saying, I researched you and I admire you. Can I just ask you a question? That's an offer. That's interesting. I'm curious about this, Charles. You know, you, 10 years ago, your life really kind of changed in a way with power habit, right?

47:07Yeah. Like put you on a map in a different way. You had a successful career, but it wasn't as big of a platform as when that book came out. It was transformational. What is it like being a super communicator before a lot of success comes your way? Kind of when you're trying to figure out life or your career or developing yourself, skills and talents versus boom, I want number one New York Times, Pulitzer Prize winner, three years on the Times list, 10 million copies of the book, like boom, an explosion of this world's success. How does it differ to be a super communicator after and before? So I think the thing that happened, I will say this, so 2013 Power of Habit comes out and And that's the same year I won the Pulitzer Prize for this work I was doing in the New York Times about Apple had nothing to do with with habits.

47:59And it was it was definitely the hardest and maybe one of the worst years of my life. Really? How is that possible? And the reason why is because it went to my head and I stopped listening to my instincts. like I just got like blocked from like leading up to that I like the what I found was that like when people start telling you how smart you are at some point you start believing them and that's always like the path to ruin right like luckily I have a wife who like would tell me how dumb I was so that helped a lot but but it was a really challenging time and I think what happened is that made you had more success than ever before you had more money more fame yeah opportunity and all that stuff was great i feel so lucky to have had that like i feel so fortunate that this happened it was the lowest time for you i like you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that year and relive it it was so hard i felt i felt like every single opportunity like i felt like i felt like i was on top of the like i had won the lottery and twice yeah twice twice and if i and the only future was downhill and by the way yeah if I don't continue winning the lottery it's because my fault because I because like I'm a dummy like I I squandered this opportunity and so I got so inside my own head that I I actually stopped I stopped being a super communicator to be honest I just I talked a lot more than I listened because everyone wanted your advice or they thought you had all the answers or whatever yeah or because they were giving me money to go stand on the stage and like nobody ever says like your idea is not a good idea when you're standing on that stage.

49:41It's, it's when you're in a newsroom or when you're with your friends or when you're with your spouse, they're the ones who are like, that's a dumb idea. Like, like you aren't thinking clearly. And so a lot of, a lot of, so the reason I wrote super communicators was because I had these experiences where I felt like I'm a professional communicator and, and I'm doing something wrong. And actually one night I wrote, I sat down and I wrote out over the past year all the places where I felt like I had failed to communicate. So like fight with my wife that we could have avoided. Manager at work and not doing a good job, not doing right by my team.

50:23My kids coming to me and like, you know, clearly wanting to like connect. And I'm like caught up in like some article I'm writing or something. Too busy or whatever. And it's not like I was a monster. Like I wasn't doing this all the time. But as I looked at it, there was like once every two weeks, once every three weeks, there was something. And I thought to myself, like, if I'm so smart, like why am I failing at this? And so the way the book started was me calling experts and just saying like, I have this friend who's bad at communication. Can you tell me? Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

50:54Right. Right.

51:04science. Like you can get better at this. And so a lot of recovering from that success was learning to re-listen to these instincts that were there that the success had sort of made harder to hear. Even the words you just shared there, recovering from the success, there's so many people that want to be successful. They want to make more money. They want to have their work or their message be a bestseller. They want to get acknowledged for their work, their efforts. They want to win awards. They want bigger followings. But when you got those things initially, you had to recover from them. It was the most challenging year of your life.

51:45Yeah. What is it about fame, money, and success you wish everyone knew about? Yeah. And a lot of people, I mean, you've spoken about this eloquently. Tim Ferriss has written about this. The problem is that when you're chasing something and the chase is glorious, right the chase is pure it feels so good like you know what to do every morning when you wake up you start to think that the point of it is the thing at the end of the chase rather than the chase itself like you're so focused i was so focused on winning a pulitzer prize like i like wanted it so bad and and the letdown was i mean i love having won it it's i feel like it's a real honor but like once once that was gone as a north star i was like what do i write about for the new york times now wow and so i think what happens is that was there a big hangover emotional hangover for you like how long did the the joy last when you won oh surprise i don't know 30 or 40 minutes like really yeah because then i started stressing about like what am i going to say in the speech i got to thank this guy like how do i navigate like like yeah like because this the this is the thing that people like everyone who's listening, they're listening because they want to become better, not because they want to be best.

53:02Once you're best, like that's, that's less fun than improving yourself. Right. I mean, frankly, they're already best. Everyone who's listening to this is probably a huge success at what they do. They, they, they are successful. And the reason they're successful though. And the reason they're happy is because they wake up every day and they know I can get a little bit better. And if what you're saying is here's the mountaintop, once you reach it, you don't know what to do next. It feels like then you need to look for a new mountain. And, and the real answer is just to recognize actually the mountain is life.

53:38Like the mountain is like, I have a great relationship with my wife, but how much better can I be as a husband? And like, I love my kids and I'm close to them, but like, how can I know more about their lives? Like, how can I, how can I help them more? Like, once you stop saying there is a goal I'm moving towards, then you start to recognize like the goal is actually what you do every day. And that's so much more rewarding. Wow. Do you think, and you think so? Yeah. I'm curious about right before maybe the year leading up to that moment, if you could assess yourself on an inner dialogue or an inner feeling between one and 10, call it the self-love inner peace scale.

54:2310 being you had lots of love and acceptance and peace and joy inside of you. One being, you know, you're miserable. Where were you that year leading up to that success? And where were you, you know, the year or years afterwards. So leading up to it, I would say I was like an eight. Wow. It felt great. Like I was like, I was operating on all cylinders. I felt like I was doing good work. And then I have the, and then I have the success and I feel, I just, I felt like I felt anticipatory regret. Like I felt like I'm going to make a mistake and I'm going to feel like the stupidest person ever for not taking advantage of this opportunity.

55:03Really? And it took a couple of years for me to get back to being an eight. And the thing that happened was I wrote another book that did not do very well. So I wrote a book called smarter, faster, better, which I think is actually, I loved writing it. It was a, I think it's a good book. I mean, it was a, it was a good book to write. It's a, it's not a good book. It's not designed as a book. It's, it's too random. Okay. And I wrote it because I thought that it's what readers wanted from me rather than something that I was really you wanted to create that I wanted to create and and it did fine it sold over a million copies but it was nowhere near like the power of habit nobody talks about copies is massive success it was great it was great and people but but afterwards I thought to myself like the next book I write it has to come from a question I actually want to answer for myself right like again like the journey is more important than the destination yes like because the destination is one day and the journey is years leading up to it.

56:06Like you're going to be excited about it, interested in it. You got to be excited. You got to be interested. You're going to spend so much more time in the journey than you are in the destination. So if you're only thinking about that destination, you're, you're missing a lot that's happening around you. Wow. Can I ask you, cause I know that your, your career, your athletic career, your football career was cut short by an injury. When that happened, what was that like afterwards? Like, was there... It's pretty depressing for about a year and a half. Yeah. Sadness. Well, I was in a... I had a surgery, so I was in a cast for six months in this position.

56:40We were like on a full arm cast where I couldn't straighten my arm. Couldn't turn it or straighten it for six months, except for every six weeks, they take it off to replace it. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, six months like this, living on my sister's couch, making no money. And this was in 2007 and eight when the economy crashed. Housing market crashed. So people weren't hiring. I didn't have a college degree yet. I left early to go put chase the dream of football. I had five credits left, but I didn't even study in school though. So I didn't have confidence from school to get me a job or something.

57:14So I just felt like, what am I going to do the rest of my life? So what pulled you out of that? What's the turning moment? that like well i i felt i had a lot of time alone and i felt i was listening to my inner voice that saying that was meant for more like there was something more that i was supposed to do i didn't know what but i knew i needed to just take action on something and course correct along the way so i didn't know what direction and i started with a list of my fears and i said i don't want to be in fear anymore. I don't want to be afraid of my insecurities. So I started writing down a list of my fears.

57:57Public speaking was at the top of it. Salsa dancing was one as well. Learning and musical instrument, like all these different things that I was like, I'm just not good at these things. And the downside of getting injured is I couldn't practice my sport anymore. The upside is I had all this time. Yeah. I had unlimited time, essentially, to attack all my fears. And that year after that, I went to Toastmasters every single week for a year. I found my kind of a coach mentor that helped get me into Toastmasters that recommended it. And would give me feedback on my little five-minute speeches that were horrible.

58:43And I would study every single week. I would practice. I would rehearse. I would film myself and get better at that. I went salsa dancing three times a week. I was like obsessing about salsa dancing at night to go to clubs. I did group lessons, private lessons, like anything I could do. I begged people to teach me. I was listening on CD to like, you know, a CD of all salsa music and just practicing in my mind throughout the whole day, then practicing at night physically. going to Toastmasters. I was being a super communicator and connector. I was on LinkedIn all day, reaching out to people, trying to connect with people to find opportunities.

59:22So I was building relationship skills. All these things that I was insecure about, I started to apply them and it gave me an incredible gifts. It gave me more skills. It gave me connections and one connection led to the next opportunity. And so I just tried a lot of things which I might have been distracted but it was a season of trying and experimenting and that led me to my first kind of money-making opportunity and online marketing company that I created and I did that for many years until I transitioned into the podcast yeah so it was kind of like all right let me just try a lot of stuff and then see where something takes me and what I love about that story is that it was the things that you were bad at you studied and you became not just good at but really good at this and that's why i say so many of these super communicators they are people who have these periods when they were bad at communication so they felt like they had to pay more attention to it they had to like study how it works like i i mean i say this confidently and with humility at the same time, that I can go anywhere in the world to any salsa club in the world and walk in randomly and look for the best female salsa dancer and ask her to dance and have an incredible dance with this person.

1:00:46That's amazing. Anyone in the world, because I've done it. I literally traveled the world doing this to give myself these experiments. I go, what if I do this in Argentina, in Mexico, in ireland in france in australia in new zealand i went i went around the world because i was afraid to do it yeah and i was all i was afraid of rejection so i was like i need to put myself in situations to be rejected and it would be an experiment i'm going to go in and i look for the best female dancer and i'm going to ask her to dance with me even if i don't speak the language and i would get rejected a lot and i was like oh that doesn't feel good but let me just keep going and i would make it a game i was like how can i get them to come up to me by the end of the night to dance with me.

1:01:26Because they see how good you are. Or you can actually dance. It's just like experiments and games, right? Yeah. And the public speaking thing, you know, I'm going to Mexico next week to get a big paycheck to speak. And I would have never been able to do this had I not had that time to practice every single week. Well, and so what I love about that is that you've changed the definition of success. And I think that gets back to why that year after Power of Habit came out was so hard for me, is that oftentimes when we go into a conversation, we think that the point of a conversation, the definition of success, is to convince the other person of something, right?

1:02:02Or to win the conversation, or to prove that I'm right, or to feel smart, to look smart. And the real point of a conversation is simply to understand the other person. It's not to agree with each other. If you and I differ on gun control or fortune or something like that, we're not going to convince each other. But if I understand what you're saying and you feel listened to, And if you understand what I am saying and I feel listened to, then that conversation is a success. Wow. The same way that going into a club and trying to learn to salsa dance, the definition of success is not that the best answer in that place is yes right away.

1:02:38The definition of success is that you asked seven different people and six of them turned you down and you persisted. Yeah. Kept going. Exactly. Or that like after writing a book and winning this prize that my definition of success was doing work I'm proud of every day, regardless of whether it's going to win a prize or anyone's going to read it, doing work that feels meaningful to me. Right. When we, when we find the right definition of success, it's not hard to align how to achieve it. It's just that oftentimes we haven't thought more deeply enough about what success actually means for us. Right.

1:03:13But if someone's in a, you mentioned kind of winning a conversation or trying to look right in a conversation, what's the best way super communicators can navigate or influence or resolve the conflict if it's just not going well? Maybe at a family holiday thing or a relationship or whatever it might be where it's just, oh, this is not going well. There is this power move. And before I describe it, let me just say, not every conversation, not every situation has to be a conversation. Like, it's fine if your uncle is spouting off about some crazy lizard people are going to take over the world. Just walk away.

1:03:50Yeah. Or just be like, oh, that's interesting. And then just don't engage. Right. Like, you don't have to have a conversation with everyone. When I say to my kids, I want to talk about your room. I'm not looking for a conversation. I'm looking to tell them like it's time to take your room. Yeah. But let's say you do want to have a conversation. So what's the number one thing you can do if someone has said something to you that's aggressive or crazy or offensive to you is to ask a deep question. And the easiest question, ask the deep question is. Tell me, like. You're clearly passionate about this.

1:04:23Like, why is this so important to you? Like, what is it about this that's so important to you? Why? and and at that point i'm not judging i'm not offering any judgment right and what that person is going to tell you is they're going to tell you not about that topic they're going to tell you about who they are their values their beliefs their experiences that's exactly right like like if if you're saying something you know you like the eagles and i hate the eagles right and i say to you like why are like why are the eagles so important to you what you can tell me about is like me and my dad used to go and it's so meaningful this relationship and these moments yeah and i know what it's like to have meaningful relationships with a dad right like i had those moments like that's something where we can connect and the fact that i think that you're an idiot for liking the eagles right which let me just say i i love the eagles but as an example but like suddenly we're not talking about this thing that's a source of conflict we're talking about who we are and the truth is you are an expert on who you are like i can't take I can't even question your expertise on your values, your beliefs, your experiences.

1:05:31So once I put you in a position where you can confidently talk about who you are, you're just much more relaxed. Right. And you're willing to listen to me. That's cool. What if you know the person's wrong? You're like, oh man, this person's just so emotionally irrational that they're not listening to me and also my side. What if you just know they're wrong? Yeah. Maybe they're not. But you just feel, gosh, whatever they're saying, that just belief is just not the right belief. So there's been a ton of research on this because of COVID. So when the COVID vaccine rolled out, there was a lot of people who were anti-vaccine.

1:06:14And the CDC basically said, we tried lecturing at them and that didn't work, clearly. So now we need to understand how to communicate with folks. not to try and necessarily force them to get the vaccine, but just to understand why they're saying no to us and to understanding if there's another way to presenting this information. And so they did a ton of research and ton of experiments. And what they found was that the most effective technique is something called motivational interviewing, where I ask you that why question. So if someone comes in and they say, I'm opposed to, I'm opposed to vaccines and I'm a doctor, it'd be really easy for me to say, like, let me show you all the evidence about why vaccines are great.

1:06:52Right. Let me show you, but a better way it is to say, tell, tell me why, like a, why you've anti-vaccine, but B tell me why this is important to you. Like, like there's a lot of things you could have told me. The fact that you're telling me this means that it's meaningful to you. So they answer that question. And then I hear something that they say that indicates a value of belief or an experience. They say, look, I'm really worried about my kids. I've heard rumors that this vaccine can hurt kids, you know, for it'd be fine for old people, but for my kids, I'm really worried about it. Then you can say, again, you're an expert in you and I'm an expert in me.

1:07:29You can say, I totally hear what you're saying. I, I have kids too. I am really worried about the safety of my kids. The thing that's hard for me is that I see kids come in every day who are unvaccinated and they're sick and I can't help them. Right. And that's, that really like, it's just hard for me to see that. Now, I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm not telling you you're dumb. I'm not telling you you don't know what you're talking about. I'm telling you about my experience because we have something in common. We both care about our kids. It's good. And what's amazing is I've talked to dozens of doctors who have been taught how to do motivational interviewing.

1:08:07They say that again and again, what happens is that person starts the conversation by saying, I'm against vaccines. I'm never going to get vaccinated. They feel listened to. They feel like the doctors heard what they said, reaffirmed what they said, shared their own experiences. And at the end of it, they're like, you know, like I'm willing to try it. Like I trust you. So I'm willing to try the vaccine. And this technique of motivational interviewing, um, there's been a lot of experiments in politics around, around using this technique. And what they find is that around gay marriage was kind of the, the platform that was used to try and study this.

1:08:43the most effective way to get someone to support gay marriage who has said that they do not support gay marriage is to ask them what they think about marriage. Don't argue with them. Don't disagree. And then say, you know, I think marriage is really important too. And I have a friend, James, who's gay and he loves his boyfriend. And what do you think we should do to let them experience like to marriage is really important you and I like we both like like tell like what do you think we should do to help me under help me understand where you're coming from that actually is what that works it worked overwhelmingly Wow it worked it actually it was like a 6 % change in the the electorate in the people who are polled which in politics you don't change 6 % of on anything.

1:09:37And it was because they didn't argue. They just listened. They didn't say you're wrong, you're right, or whatever it is. They just said, what's a better solution? How can we make this work? And we both believe in this thing. We both think that marriage is so important. And I love this guy, James. And maybe you know someone who's gay. And if they came to you and they said, I love this person and I want to show my love for them. And you just told me how important marriage is? Like how do we give that to them? Then suddenly it's, we're on the same side of the table. We're solving - You're agreeing with something.

1:10:10Yes. We're solving this question together. Interesting. Instead of at odds with each other. Right. They say like marriage conflict or relationship conflict, that it's never you versus the person, it's you both versus the problem. That's exactly right. It's approaching it. Okay. The problem is this, how can we solve the problem together? Yeah. Not you did this thing that I, or I did this thing or whatever. Here's the thing. Let's find a solution. And, and when we're in conflict, particularly in a marriage, we have this instinct to try and control things. Cause like we feel conflict scary, right?

1:10:46You want to control. And the easiest thing to do is try and control the other person. You're wrong. You should believe this. If you say that, I'm going to leave the room. But what researchers have found is that the way that you say, like, we're going to focus on the problem is instead of trying to control each other, you try and control things together. Like controlling when this argument takes place. Like instead of doing it at two o 'clock in the morning. When you're both exhausted. Yeah. We're going to wait till 10 a.m. when we like have some time or trying to control the boundaries of the fight.

1:11:14Right. Like instead of where are we going to spend new years and your mother-in-law drives me crazy and we don't have enough money. Like both of you sitting down and saying, okay, the thing we're going to talk about is where are we spending new years? Not about mothers, not about like money. like let's control the boundaries of this discussion together. Suddenly you're on the same side of the table and you might not agree with each other right away, but you feel like you are working together. That's powerful. This is inspiring stuff. I want people to get the book, super communicators, how to unlock the secret language of connection.

1:11:48I truly believe that the power, uh, the quality of our life is related to the quality of our relationships. And the quality of our relationships is directly related to what you're talking about in this book, which is how to communicate more eloquently, more intentionally, and with better ease with other people, and really understanding where people are coming from. So if you want to have a higher quality life, make sure you get this book and understand this process. And again, this is a powerful stuff especially now when loneliness epidemic is that it seems like an all-time high in the US yeah and something that we really need to think about over the next decade of life are we are gonna get lonelier are gonna have less skills and tools for communication what's that gonna do to our health our opportunities our lack of abundance our safety all these different things learning to communicate is going to be the difference between having a miserable life with your friends and families or being in conflict or having a beautiful life based on your ability to learn these skills.

1:12:58So I'm really grateful that you decided to make this your last few years of curiosity and dive into this. And I want to acknowledge you, Charles, for continuing to pursue wisdom when you don't have to. You've made a ton of money. You've won every award. You've been on the top of every list. You've sold almost 10 million copies of your books. You don't have to keep being curious and keep adding value to people. You've done a lot. So I want to acknowledge you for taking your time to craft, create, and curate information that can help all of us. Oh, thank you. And by putting this out there, and I want people to get a copy of this book, how else can we support you right now?

1:13:41Where should we go to follow you or connect with you? Well, and let me just start by saying thank you. Thank you for having such an amazing conversation with me. Thank you for being so honest and vulnerable and real and authentic. If people do want to follow up, luckily my last name is Duhigg. I'm like the only Charles Duhigg on earth. If they Google me, they'll find my website and they'll find the books. Most importantly on my website and actually in the end notes of the book is my email address. and every single person who emails me every single reader who emails me I read and reply to their you know way yeah yeah it's over 28 ,000 so far holy cow and and the reason why is because like you got to live what you preach right like like if someone takes the time to send me they put time and energy into you owe that a debt of honor right and so like four hours a day just replying to people it it's it's I let them build up so I spent a Saturday it's sort of like going through and like reading them but it's I'm Charles at Charles do Higg calm if anyone wants to reach out I'll definitely see your email and and I would love to hear people's stories about how they communicate like what they've found has helped them be a super communicator when school when they've needed it awesome I love it so they can follow you get the book email you you You're on social media a little bit, but you're not on there too much, right?

1:15:07Yeah, not as much as I should be. I see you're surfing and I see you travel. We were both in Japan last year, I think. Oh, yeah. Were you in Japan at the same time? I saw you with the arches. I didn't post my photos, but I saw you with photos there. I was like, that's cool. Very cool. So people can do that. How else can we be of support and serve you? You know, honestly, the best thing that you can do is if you read the book or you've heard an idea that you think is powerful, share that idea with someone else. I mean, we were talking before, like, if I can change one or two people, if I can make one or two people a better communicator, it's relatively modest.

1:15:44But if all of us make one or two people a better communicator, that loneliness epidemic goes away. Absolutely. Right? If there's thousands of people saying, I'm willing to have a tough conversation with you, I want to model for you how to do this. like I have a I have a friend I've been talked to in six months and it seems awkward to give them a call but like I'm just gonna do it because they might be feeling lonely right now that is the the truest gift that I think someone can give me and themselves in the world is just to reach out and to try and communicate that's cool that's cool um I asked you this the last time we had a conversation but it was a while ago this is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths.

1:16:26So hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day on earth. You've created everything you want to create personally, professionally, hobbies. You do it all from this moment until that day, but you have to turn the lights off and go to the next place. And for whatever reason, it's hypothetical question. You have to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this book, any book, articles, interviews. It's all gone. Yeah. Hypothetical. But you get to leave behind three lessons that you know to be true from your whole life's experience, everything you've learned.

1:17:03What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind? So I think the first one is like is just pops into my mind immediately is the more you invest in your spouse and in your kids or whatever your relationship is, that's the closest relationships you have, every single ounce of that investment will be worth it. And it will be returned to you in like 10X. And there are so many times, particularly when we're chasing success, that we don't invest in the people around us. And whatever that prize is that you get, whatever that money is that you get, it's nice, it's freeing, freeing, but it's not as nice as like a wife who loves you or kids who enjoy spending time with you or a husband who like thinks the world of you or just having like a great friend you can call anytime.

1:17:58That's a beautiful one. So that's number one. Number two is I don't think I've ever heard that one. Oh, really? That's I don't think I can remember hearing investing in people like that and how it will return in your investment. So that's really cool. So the second one I think is it is always worth betting on yourself like you know when i when i went to business school um i graduated with my mba and i decided to become a journalist and i was the lowest paid member of my class for the next four years like i went to harvard business school everyone wanted to go make a ton of money i was making i think forty thousand dollars my first year after and i I had like 90 grand in student loans.

1:18:44And, but the thing is, I was like, look, I, I'm going to bet on myself. Like, I think I can figure out how to make, how to make a career in this. And everyone I know who succeeded it, they've succeeded because they bet on themselves, not because they bet on the safe course, not because they bet on what the, the wisdom of the masses it's because they bet on themselves. So bet on yourself. And then the third one is that as soon as you get something, you don't really enjoy it until you start giving it away. Right. Like, like I found I was lucky enough to make some money from the power of habit. And I have tried to give to charity and I've tried to, to support my friends.

1:19:30and and i have never felt as rich in my life as when i give a check to someone who needs it like otherwise like having a lot of money is great because it frees you up but it can also be a little stressful right you're like managing all these things yeah i'm not spending too much taxes x y and z it's a good problem to have but it's a problem but then we started this scholarship um for new writers that who work at bookstores and like when i sent over the check i was like man this is like the richest i've ever felt in my entire life so i and i think that's true not just of money it's true of like influence and and kindness right like like as soon as you find something it's when you give it away that you're like oh this is something i actually have wow that's cool those are great lessons man i love that um so wait what are yours can i like what are do they change they've definitely evolved over time but i would say my three truths in this moment would be to live in gratitude.

1:20:29Yeah. And to really have a perspective of life and look at the beauty and the gratitude of the things that are happening as opposed to the negative sides of things. Living in gratitude always makes me feel better. It always puts me in a state of appreciation. And when you appreciate something, it tends to appreciate in the value, even emotionally. So living gratitude would be number one. Number two would be to make your health a, you know, a high focus daily, uh, physical, emotional, spiritual health. Yeah. Um, when you're sick, all you care about is being healthy, you know? And it's like, there's no other problem that matters in the world when you're sick, except for that thing.

1:21:16When you're healthy, you can have lots of problems, but it's like when you're sick, you've got one problem. Yeah. Getting healthy again. So stay healthy because I think that'll want to enrich your view of life, your relationships, everything. You'll be able to move with more ease in the world and have more energy. And the third would be to live in service. You know, this is really living in service in relationships. Being a great listener, a great communicator, I think is a service. Yeah. I remember when I was starting after football and starting to meet with these kind of mentors, I didn't know what value I could add to people.

1:21:55I didn't have skills. I didn't have money. I didn't have talent. I was just like, ah, they're meeting me, but what can I do for them? Yeah. And I started to realize that asking them the right questions where they could reflect and remember stories and share was a great service to them. It opened them up. It got them excited. It's like they felt like they were empowering me by teaching. I was adding a service to that and therefore developing in deeper relationships. And so living in service to the people around you is how I'd say is my third truth. Those are really beautiful. Gratitude, health, and service.

1:22:34I'm going to totally steal them. I like yours though. I like yours. Final question for you, Charles. What's your definition of greatness? honestly my definition of greatness is that when that day comes when we die that people show up and they say you know what i just really liked knowing this people this person my dad died about six years ago and and i we went to the funeral and all these people showed up so many people and they just said like i like like your dad brought some joy into my life that's cool and And he did lots of other stuff, right? But like, I don't know what could be greater than when you're no longer there for people to say like, I'm so glad I knew that person.

1:23:23Wow, that's cool. That is greatness. Charles, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

1:23:58I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.