The Grief Expert Who Discovered a Sixth Stage | David Kessler

27:14Lewis Howes:And it was an emotional intelligence workshop that had kind of that context of allowing for that to happen. I didn't go there with that intention of like, oh, I have grief, but it was around growth. And I don't think I would have been able to process that without others witnessing that experience where I felt safe in the witnessing. And it really unlocked the ability for me to start healing that unresolved grief, which didn't happen overnight. It took a process and there was ups and downs and a mess in it all. Well, in those years before you talked about it, did you think about it once? Almost daily.

27:55Lewis Howes:Daily. For like 25 years. Almost daily. I mean, or I'd stuff it away. How much energy looking back now did it take to manage that? So much. So much energy. Wasted. Wasted. And I also believe nothing's wasted. But I understand that concept. And the moment you, my guess is someone before you spoke and you were like, oh, if they can say that, oh, I could say that one thing I haven't thought about saying. They didn't talk about sexual abuse, but people were opening up and I was like, wow, they've been through some stuff. Wow, they've been through some stuff. Oh, this might be safe. We find ourselves in each other's stories and we find our healing in each other's stories.

28:42So one more piece on this. All grief does not have trauma, but all trauma has grief. So, you know, our hundred year old grandfather who's had a great life. It's grief.

28:59Lewis Howes:Yes. Pure grief. Sexual abuse that you've had, sexual abuse that I've had, there's trauma and grief. And we're a society that knows how to talk about the trauma, but we also have to remember, wait a minute, there were years lost. There was an innocence. Gone. There was an innocent childhood we deserve this lifetime we're never getting. And we have to do a little grief work on that. And when you're an adult, it's hard to reconcile with that. Right. You're like, huh, my whole childhood gone in some ways, you know? Absolutely. And that is recognizing that is the beginning of the grieving process.

29:40We got to be willing to face it ourselves.

29:45Lewis Howes:That was probably the scariest moment of my life was speaking it out loud, speaking in front of people that I, you know, not strangers, but essentially I just met for a few days. Right. And in some ways it was easier that it was easier that there wasn't like friends and family because part of it was, oh, if my friends or family knew this about me, no one would love me. And they have so much energy around you. Oh, yeah. You know, it's interesting. When my son died and I had to eventually go back to work and I had to think about which lecture is going to be my first back. I wanted something that I felt I could manage.

30:29Right. my first lecture back was to the LAPD.

30:34Lewis Howes:Okay. I wanted people who were just going to sort of be there, but like, they're not going to therapize me. They're not going to go into like, I just needed to like have that first talk and say it. You know, so it's interesting how sometimes the strangers don't have all the baggage that our loved ones do. Yeah, it was interesting. I finally got the courage to tell friends and family and thank goodness everyone received it well and had the capacity to experience it and share that sadness for the experience or the sadness for my, you know, the little boy in me that had this experience. And, and in some ways it felt like it made the connection stronger with each one of those individuals, which I was grateful for.

31:24Lewis Howes:But I also have heard people say that they've shared grief or trauma tied with grief to friends, family, loved ones, and it was not received well. So what happens if someone shares their grief with someone where it says, ah, suck it up, or well, it's tough that that happened, but move on, or whatever they did. Maybe they didn't have the tools or the skills to communicate effectively because they are repressing their grief or trauma or something, or it's just not in their capacity. But what happens when you open up to someone who doesn't receive your grief well, and it almost traumatizes you more?

32:01That's why there's been grief groups since the beginning of time, because we need to find those people who know. The truth is, look, most people in grief Grief could look back and go, oh, I didn't do this as well as I could have with someone before I knew. Once grief comes to you, you understand it. But, you know, if you're having a horrible divorce and all your happily married friends, they're not going to get it. Your divorced friends might get it. So, one, we have to pick our audience. And the thing is, I love that line about no matter how, like people always want, I got, my sister's got to get it.

32:44My spouse has to get it. Help me have the right words to convince them of the pain I'm in. And I often say that line about no matter how many times you go up and down the aisle of a hardware store, you're never finding milk. You're not changing your sister.

33:02Lewis Howes:Yeah. So let's transplant you to a place with people you can talk about it. it's a grief illiterate world. It's a grief illiterate world. No one knows until you've gone through it and you say, I'm going to learn about it. And a lot of people have gone through it and don't learn about it. They stuff it. Or get stuck in it. They get stuck in it. They don't want to do the work to heal or transform it because in some ways it's scary, it's hard, it's unfamiliar. There's some sense of control and feeling angry or resentment or whatever it is. And it's feelings that are bigger than us and feel like they will take us out of control.

33:37Or we're going to start crying. You know, and I tell people who say to me, if I start crying, I'll never stop.

33:43Lewis Howes:I'll go, I've been with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying. You get tired at some point. Right. Or, you know, man who goes, I can't cry. It's not, and I'm like, really? I've been, I worked at 9-11. I was there with firemen who were digging for their brothers, crying. You want me to tell them they're not being manly? Like, dude, we've got to redefine manhood here. When someone says they don't have the ability to cry, what are they really saying? I'm judging my feelings. People will say to me, I can't cry. And I go, you can't cry or you're judging yourself for not crying? The thing is, if we're judging ourselves about we should be crying, and this happens all the time.

34:27I'll say, you're judging your feelings. And people go, no, I'm not. and I'll go, well, but you're telling me you should be crying, which means you're not okay feeling what you're feeling now. There's a should here, which means you got a judgment. Judgment demands punishment. You're going to punish yourself or others and you're clearly not going to cry. We have to get to a point where we go, you know what? I'm going to accept my feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I don't. Let me just accept. It's a weird paradox that to feel your feelings, you have to accept them and then you begin to move through them.

35:10Lewis Howes:If someone says, I haven't cried in years, what is it that they're blocking? I would say to them, I think that wisdom is in you. And I think you might want to put some effort into getting curious about it versus judgmental. What would it look like if you weren't blocked? What would your life look like if it wasn't being blocked? What are the obstacles that's keeping you that way? And a lot of us get this learned helplessness that we're like, there's no way out. And that's when we need someone to go, yes, there is. Give me your hand. Yes, there is. We're going to look. I can't take you all the way, but I can open the door and show you some stuff.

35:54Lewis Howes:Because most people don't have the tools to navigate grief well, it seems like they haven't learned it in an early stage or they weren't taught it or they didn't learn how to discover it. You know, as a parent to twin girls now, how could I demonstrate how to move through grief when they're, you know, five years old and someone doesn't want to play with them or something and they feel like they had a friend that doesn't want to hang out with them or whatever it is, how can I teach it early with something small so that they understand how to navigate it through life's challenges when they're older?

36:31Absolutely. Think of what we said around feelings. So just treat it as their feelings. What mistakes do we do? We, you know, I can't believe they don't want to play with me. And your daughter starts crying and your other daughter's fine. What do we say? You should be more like her shutting down the feelings or that friend's not worth it. don't have that feeling, or that's a silly thing to shaming them. Instead, going back to the witnessing. Wow, it is really sad when someone doesn't want to play with us. Then going to the capacity. You know, it's sad, and I bet we could still have some fun this afternoon.

37:13Knowing you and me, we could have some fun. But don't shut those feelings down. Just allow them.

37:20Lewis Howes:So how do people learn to teach how to communicate your feelings when a lot of people feel like feelings are bad or they don't want to deal with the feelings of another person or it's hard for them to watch someone cry or scream or whatever it might be? How do we teach that specifically in men who I think have never been taught how to navigate feelings? Listen, I got into this work because my mother died when I was young. There was a horrible shooting. And the only advice I got was in the hallway, the stairwell of the hospital. Someone said to me, be strong. That was it. That was it, which is no feelings.

37:58Take care of everyone.

37:59Lewis Howes:Suck it up. Suck it up. Just another version of suck it up. And the problem is, like, let's fast forward to what it's like being with people who are dying. What do we do when we suck it up? The other half is suck it up, be productive, go do something. Then we get to our deathbed and go, oh, I did. I performed. I did. I performed. But I missed the love. I missed the presence. I mean, the thing is, you know, you and I could have a completely inauthentic discussion. Like earlier, we didn't have an inauthentic discussion. We had an authentic discussion and we talked about real things. That didn't separate us.

38:51I hope it made us feel more comfortable. And that's an illusion that those feelings are going to ruin something. Vulnerability, you know, Brene Brown, who's like, just she's been amazing with this. Just you realize vulnerability is a superpower. It's a superpower. Yeah.

39:13Lewis Howes:You worked with a lot of different individuals over many years. From your clinical perspective, who has a harder time truly expressing their feelings, men or women? Men. And a lot of times when I work with men, men who aren't comfortable don't know how to do this. They don't know how to do face-to-face. And a lot of times our spouses and people will like sit men down and go, which is like the worst thing. When I'm working with men and they don't traffic well in feelings, I'm like, let's take a walk. Men do better sometimes shoulder-to-shoulder talking. Yeah. Yeah. Not staring at each other's souls.

40:02Lewis Howes:Right. How do you feel about it? You know, it's like, no, I don't want to hear what you think. I want to know what you feel. Well, if you can't go there, I'll hear what you think. Your thinking is going to reveal your feelings. It's fine. Yeah. I got to meet people where they are. I mean, we all, you know, one of the things that I say to people so much, friends, colleagues, whenever we're in disagreements with the world and the people around us, I'm like, you're in confrontation, argument, war with who you think they should be. If you take all these tools and realize that's what you're projecting, Just see them.

40:45Meet them for who they are.

40:47Lewis Howes:What if they're not happy with who they are? Then we've got some power to do something. Because I'll tell you, we have the power to stay. We have the power to go. We don't have the power to change other people. I've tried. I've spent a life trying. They don't change and we get frustrated. Does it mean we can't encourage? There's little things we can do. I'm going to get further with people. If I say, I really like what you did and name the things you do well versus naming the things you don't do well. Yep. That's going to help the other person grow. But I've never nagged anyone into change. Right.

41:33Lewis Howes:Or judged them into change. That's not going to work. Not working. Not working. They're not going to be happy. Got to meet them where they are. You talk about this idea of unintended grief, grief that people carry around without realizing it. Can you explain how that shows up in someone's daily life and how it impacts their relationships or their ability to succeed? We could say, look at really famous people. Look at successful people. Look at people in your family who have had a horrible acting out situation. Any celebrity sports figure, like they just act as something, oh, I don't understand, with all their money, how'd they do that?

42:13Unattended grief and feelings. Yes, they blew up in that moment because they couldn't manage the bigness of what was going on. Instead of learning how to manage it in all these small moments, we see it all the time. People self-sabotage in the big ways because they don't learn how to just deal with the disappointments, the changes, the griefs of everyday life. Like the question you asked about your daughters is there's people who we've all seen them implode who never asked that question and no one asked that question about them. Their feelings weren't attended to.

42:59Lewis Howes:Right. When people say to me, like, why should I feel these feelings? Well, look at what happens to the people who don't. We turn on the TV. They're about to blow. That's what happens. And it's devastating that you see really good people damage their careers and their lives or use substances or all the other things we do because we don't know how to manage our feelings. How does someone know if they have unintended grief? your actions become automatic. I don't know why I reacted that way. I don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know why I'm so angry. Like people don't understand anger is often grief.

43:42You know, I talk about anger is pain's bodyguard. The anger shows up, but it's about the pain it's protecting. And so a lot of time that pain is unattended grief.

44:21Lewis Howes:need. Now let's get back to the conversation. If you're a small business, you know one great hire can change everything. And maybe it's someone to keep the day running smoothly, find the right producer, or take work off your plate so you can focus on what you do best. Finding that person matters. Indeed, sponsored jobs get you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast.

45:03Lewis Howes:That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We've talked about BetterHelp on this podcast for a long time because taking care of your mind is just as important as taking care of every other part of your life. You've heard about therapy with BetterHelp, but do you know how much people love it when they actually use it? See for yourself. Check out amazing customer reviews updated every day at betterhelp.com slash reviews. You'll find hundreds of people sharing how much BetterHelp has helped them.

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46:26Lewis Howes:Visit betterhelp.com slash greatness. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com slash greatness. That was the trigger for me when it got me to a place to go to this workshop and start opening up is because I felt like for a few years, I was getting so easily triggered by the littlest things that would make me angry. And it would just get bigger and bigger kind of like reactions that were automatic. Like I wasn't even able to stop myself from reacting until afterwards I was like, what am I doing? It was just like, who am I? Why am I reacting this way? and my best friend Matt who's actually here we I got a basketball fight in West Hollywood on the mean streets of West Hollywood you know next to Beverly next to Beverly Hills and um I was getting in multiple like altercations on the basketball court probably weekly for like months until I got an actual fist fight and the guy ended up being okay after all of it or whatever but it was a big wake up call where my friend Matt was like, I don't want to hang out with you anymore.

47:34Lewis Howes:You keep reacting in this way. And he was at a lot of these games with me. There was nothing on the line. There was no big stakes. These were just friendly pickup games, but I was getting easily triggered by the littlest things. And that's when I was like, oh, if my best friend is calling me out on this and doesn't want to hang out with me, like, it's not these people, it's me. You know, I'm the one who needs to work on this. not trying to control everyone else in my life to be a certain way to make me happy. And that was a wake-up call that got me down this whole path of learning and navigating and developing myself.

48:14Lewis Howes:And I think it's going to be an ongoing journey for the rest of my life. That was unintended grief. Me automatically getting angry, really over nothing. I would love to talk about triggers for a moment. Let's do it. And before we go there, I just want to say, when we're talking about the sixth stage in finding meaning, I'm just in awe of that story that you have taken this worst event, probably one of the worst of your life, and you are talking about it and helping millions of people who you're not even going to know how much you help them. that's you making meaning that's you making meaning yeah i mean it's remarkable thank you appreciate it take that in i appreciate it and it's you know i remember i launched this show school of greatness 13 and a half years ago and i went through this kind of workshop before right before i know it's after i launched the podcast maybe six months in and it's funny because you know, I had a small following back then, but after I launched this, or after I did the workshop and started releasing this kind of grief, I guess, I don't know if you call it releasing it or integrating it or whatever.

49:31Lewis Howes:It dissipates. Yeah. I would start getting these emails from people saying, I really liked your show before, but like something's different about how you respond and how you interact and the questions you ask. And people were noticing me transforming by just my energy on the show. And I waited maybe six months after this workshop and me starting this process. And after kind of talking to my friends and family about what, what I went through, sexual abuse. And I realized, oh, okay. I've opened up to a group of strangers. I've opened them up to my friends and family, but I'm still afraid of kind of my audience or the, or others knowing this about me.

50:13Lewis Howes:And I realized like, oh, it still has control over me. And I'm not saying everyone should open up publicly about what they've been through. I don't think that's necessary, but I felt like I was living a lie to my community that I was communicating about so many things, but I wasn't willing to open up about this. And for me, I felt like it wasn't maybe the final stage, but it was like a big stage of me on kind of learning how to heal because I was so afraid of the opinions of others. I was so afraid of what are people going to think about me? Are they going to stop listening to me? Are they not going to like me?

50:45Lewis Howes:Are they going to judge me? Whatever it was, I was living in fear. And that I opened up about it publicly on my show. And I remember I recorded it and I waited months to post it. I was so afraid, but I was like, man, this fear is essentially holding me back. It's kind of controlling my life. And so I posted it and it's still 13 years later, the most downloaded episode I've ever done. A whole book came from that years later called The Mask of Masculinity because I had never seen a man open up about sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was out there, but I never witnessed like a big athlete talking about this or it being a thing.

51:30Lewis Howes:And then later, I think Oprah did a whole segment where all these men talked about sexual abuse, but I hadn't seen this. And so I was like, I felt like I was the only one had been through this because I never talked about it. I never heard anyone else talk about it. So it was the most terrifying thing, even though I learned that one in six men have been sexually abused. One in four women have been sexually abused. But for men, there's usually nowhere to talk about it. you know, it's horrible no matter who it happens to, but most men never open up about, never talk about, never have a safe space or feel like they're able to.

52:05Lewis Howes:And so for me, it was a very healing experience knowing that others then came to me as a safe space to share their story. And I think that's where the meaning, I think you were talking about the meaning came from, for me was like, Oh, me sharing it. And now I get messages so frequently where people say, I went through a similar thing that you went through in childhood, and I already know what they're meaning. They might be afraid to say it, but they feel comfortable saying to me, I've been through some similar stuff as you. I see myself in you from what you've been through as a kid. And I already know that this man has probably never spoken about this and to be a sacred space for them in that moment so they can start hopefully the process of healing.

52:51And that's such a hallmark of grief and shame and trauma. You know, even I remember that in my childhood, I was sure I was the only one that had a parent die.

53:03Lewis Howes:Really? Wow. Like, well, I had a formula. My friends' parents were alive. I mean, you know, and it's that feeling of it's only me. And I often get asked what my definition of healing is. And to me, healing is when the event no longer controls you. Yes. That's exactly what you did. You were no longer going to be controlled by that event. And I realized I still was because I was afraid to talk about it to certain people. Which is it controlling you. Exactly. So I was like, okay, I need to release this fully. I need to have so much courage and talk about this no matter what the consequences might be.

53:46Lewis Howes:Right. Like if everyone unfollows me, at least I'm free. Right. Because I didn't feel free. And listen, I mean, I remember seeing you years ago and seeing how you've changed. And, you know, the thing is, you and I casually sitting here discussing sexual abuse that we both had. I promise you, 10, 15, I couldn't imagine like we're just going to, that's just going to be a casual. Just brought up. But it doesn't control us. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah. I want to get to triggers for a moment. So triggers, you know, we live in a world now that it's all about trigger warnings. And it is a version of let me control the outside.

54:29My loved one died. I can't go by that part of town. She divorced me. I can't be with those friends, whatever it is. We have those triggers. And the game now is sort of trigger warning. You know, please don't wear white shoes. That freaks me out. It triggers me. and the problem is I'm under the illusion that the problem is out here and I'm trying to control my environment. You thought you were going to beat those guys up enough to control, you know, you're trying to fix it all on the outside. And the problem around that is when people come to me and say, I don't know where to start with grief and trauma.

55:10I go, what triggers you? Your triggers are a map to your pain and they are a map to your healing. Your freedom. We come with a map. Each of us has a map right now. I don't know what to work on. You got a map. You got a map. And for us to realize if I start going, all right, no one wear white, you know, tennis shoes, what's going to happen is I'm going to be in emotional avoidance and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. I'm going to begin to live in a world where nothing can upset me. And going back to what we talked about, I want to help people build capacity. Yeah, those white shoes are fine.

56:00It's good. Someone in white shoes years ago was a jerk, but I'm in the moment now and I can see you're not. So to understand, you know, sometimes when I was doing like events and conferences, someone would run out of the room and they'll go, it's too painful in that room. And I'd go, I get that. Take care of yourself. Leave if you need to. Don't have the illusion you're leaving the pain in the room. It's running out with you. Mm-hmm. So the dance is there whenever you're ready.

56:35Lewis Howes:Until you face the trigger, you're always going to be, I guess, a prisoner of that trigger. Of that trigger. It's going to chase after you or be with you no matter what your addiction you're chasing or connected to or how much sex you have or how much sugar you eat or how much whatever. Drug of choice, how hard you work, being a workaholic or whatever it is, that trigger and pain and trauma or whatever it is, the association around that is going to continue to follow you until you turn around and face it. Well, here's my thought, whether we're talking about triggers or feelings or grief, trauma, what we run from pursues us and what we face transforms us.

57:17You and I have been transformed by our pain. And we also spent years running from it.

57:23Lewis Howes:old man years we we know both roads years man and it was uh it's funny because i thought the more i accomplished the better i would feel but it was almost like the more i accomplished externally the worse i felt because it didn't take the pain away success is a great deodorant yeah kind of covers it all up you know but it's even stinkier yeah and we know we smell yeah and it's like the The shame grows because you're like, oh, I still don't feel like I'm good enough. I still don't feel like I matter or I'm worthy, even though I'm accomplishing or I have whatever marker to say that I've accomplished something.

58:07Lewis Howes:And I still don't feel lovable or I still don't feel enough. It's like, what is that in us when we chase something so big, we accomplish it and we still don't feel enough? What is that? because we're trying to outrun our past, our feelings. And we think, oh, that award, that game, that success, that amount of money in the bank, whatever it is. And it can even be, you know, all the things we talk about, drug, sex, da, da, da. It can be success. It can be service. It can be, you know, there's plenty of people I know that are like these amazing volunteers peers who couldn't take care of themselves if they tried, you know, and the reality is to allow ourselves to say it to one other person.

59:01And then all of a sudden we just need someone to go, oh, you're still okay. You're not the first. And unfortunately you're not going to be the last. and we all have struggles. Yours looks different than mine, but we assume the people we see on social media or TV or in sports, they don't have them. And then we see something go wrong and we're like, what? How can that be?

59:29Lewis Howes:Yeah, they have all the money and success. Right, right. Yeah. And I'll tell you, there's a line that Freud said. Freud was once asked, would he rather work with someone who's poor or someone who's rich? And he said, always rich. And they said, why? And he said, because the rich person knows that happiness is no longer in the money. I have to convince the poor person. It's going to be the key to everything. It's going to be the key to that whole, the emptiness, all of that inside of us. I know that feeling too. Once I started making money, it didn't take the pain away. It didn't make me feel like I healed the hurt boy in me, or I was less angry or frustrated or resentful.

1:00:14But you couldn't have told that to your poor, unsuccessful self growing up. No, no, no.

1:00:19Lewis Howes:I was like, this is going to solve my problems. Solve it, right. It doesn't solve it. It almost amplifies your problems. It does. The stakes become higher. I'll speak from personal experience. When I didn't feel like I was in a healthy space internally and I had money, I was all heightened anxiety around me. And I didn't want to lose it. And I felt like people were trying to take it or use me in some way. It was like, oh, now that they know that I've made some money, are they really my friend? It's all these other interpretations around the triggers that I still had. Because think about here we have unlovable-ness, unfairness, no one will love me, I'm not worthy.

1:00:56If I just get money, that's going to help. And we get money and then we go, they're still here. They're all still here. The success, the money, the whatever didn't do it. And that's when you need someone to work with you who's going to go, all right, since you've done all this, could we just talk about those?

1:01:20Lewis Howes:Josh. Of all the people you've worked with in grief groups, from high-profile individuals to people who are completely unknown, going through their own experiences, what is the number one thing that most people struggle with within themselves that they believe they're not what? Worthy, whole. They're not worthy and they're not whole. Why do so many people believe they're not worthy and they don't feel like they're whole? because I think we're raised to do more, to be more, to become someone. Forgetting you are someone. Like your worth is not by the doing. Your worth is just because you're here on the planet.

1:02:07Money's not bad or good. It's kind of neutral. Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral.

1:02:12Lewis Howes:How does someone separate, you know, being in a relationship and needing to provide for that relationship and that family versus not performing well or not getting the results they wanted, how do you not interpret, oh, I'm not good at this yet, but I'm still a worthy person? How do you navigate both those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm still whole? How do you know that? hopefully we have people in our life that love us no matter what i know a million people that i've millions exaggeration but a lot of people over the years who like literally are out doing with someone at home going i wish you were home more and they're like well when i get successful i'll be home more and i always say if you're not home more now when you get success you're you're you're going to be gone even more.

1:03:13Then it's just going to be another country you're going to, instead of across town. It's about realizing this is what matters. Our loved ones matter, you know, to really understand this is all we got. It's just a monopoly game. It's a monopoly game. Play well. I'll talk strategy with you around playing well, but let's not believe we're the game. We're just playing the game. We're not the voices in our head. We're the one listening to them. And sometimes we might not want to listen to them so well.

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1:05:15Lewis Howes:Visit t-mobile.com slash home internet to check availability and get your home internet delivered today. Same day delivery for most internet eligible customers. See if it's an option during checkout. Fastest according to OOKLA Speed Test Intelligence Data, second half 2025, all rights reserved. If someone's in a relationship with a, and they've been married for a while, and they're, you know, they both got married for good intentions, but 5, 10, 20 years down the road, they start waking up to some of this information. And they start going through a self-discovery, start processing grief, start healing some.

1:05:58but they realize that their partner is stuck in the past,

1:06:04Lewis Howes:stuck in unattended grief, and they're triggered constantly. They're reactive a lot. They're not willing to speak or open up about their past. They don't want to go there into the hurt places. They have these unresolved feelings that they stuff, and then anger comes out at different times or control comes out. What can that person do? Obviously, they can't fix their partner. They can't change their partner, but how can they meet their partner in a place where they can still have a beautiful relationship, even if that partner doesn't want to change or address the unresolved grief? Invitations and boundaries.

1:06:45Lewis Howes:What if they don't like boundaries? Well, if they don't like boundaries, you're not doing boundaries for you, for them. You're doing boundaries for yourself. Yeah. The people who cross boundaries are ourselves. You can't cross my boundaries. I can only break my boundaries. By allowing it. Yeah. By allowing it. Don't go over there. I told you, I'm going to lecture you. No. Hey, dude, if you want to be in my presence, we don't do that. So there has to be a gentle, you know, I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm changing to your wife, to your husband. I'd love you to come do some of these things with me.

1:07:23Could we go to therapy? Lots and lots of invitations. At a certain point, we have to go, they're different from me. And is that still workable? You know, in the old days, I think in relationships, we had this belief that we should be exactly the same. We both need to love this. We both have to know we can't have different interests or that spells trouble. Well, you know what? Maybe you do like those things and I'm going to like love that you're you and I'm going to do these things and we can have our together things and we can have some separate interests and that's okay. And there's a time some people could outgrow a relationship.

1:08:10I just want to make sure they've really done the invitations and done the work and things like that.

1:08:16Lewis Howes:Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid grief by avoiding love. What do you mean by that? And avoiding life. And avoiding life. You know, I'll tell you, some people, you know, I've heard your son dying must have been the worst tragedy. It's actually not. Really? The worst tragedy would have been to have come to this world and not met him. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's the worst. Wow. I got to know him. And I get to know all these people in my life now. And, you know, it's one of the things that I think, so I ran into a neighbor who I hadn't seen, actually was my boss 30 years ago. And she said to me, oh my gosh, you live so close.

1:09:09I'd be friends, but it would be too depressing to be friends with you. Why? And I said, you'd be surprised. My life isn't that depressing. I'm actually a really fun-loving person, and I have a great time in life. And I think...

1:09:27Lewis Howes:Just because she says you speak about grief all the time or something. Yeah, yeah. She's like, okay, that's, you know, I must want to sit around going, seen any good deaths lately? I don't know what she imagined. Something crazy. But it's that idea that I no longer have those needs, that pick me, that let's do that, let's find our way. Like that life is okay. And do you want to walk together? Let's walk for a while. Oh, you want to go, all right, I'm going to go this. I mean, it's just becomes this adventure we're on. And one of the things that I've learned is because I see so much death, it doesn't make me go, what's the point?

1:10:09Instead, it makes me go, let me take this in. You know, like in the worst scenario, today could be my last day. I mean, I'm with people all the time that were doing something and then they died. If today's my last day, I have a couple of choices. If I haven't been current, I can dart out of here and start saying, I apologize, I'm sorry, and make amends and blah, blah, blah. But if I've been current, I can go, wow, if today was my last day, this is my last podcast. Wow, let me go deeper. Let me not waste this moment. Let me not waste their time. Let me truly show up for life. And I don't die today, and I get to have a great day.

1:11:02Because someone's going to die. Someone's going to divorce. A breakup's going to happen. I mean, it's going to happen. And let me be present for the moments when it does and the moments when it doesn't. How many of us have ruined good moments when nothing bad was happening because of all the moments we didn't attend to? Right. How does someone know the difference of them going through grief or being depressed? You know, it's interesting. I always say that is really a question for a psychiatrist. And I encourage people to see a psychiatrist who knows grief. Like we even have a grief educator certificate program.

1:11:43And I'm so proud when psychiatrists come through because you can become a psychiatrist, a therapist, a coach without one hour of grief education. Crazy. And so it's important to know there's different markers. You know, when you're clinically depressed, that's one state that is very different from the sadness of grief. But we also live in a world that we don't use the word sad anymore. Oh my gosh, Lewis, we were so depressed at lunch yesterday, but you're not now? Did you go through a drive-through depression center? What did you do? I mean, we don't go and think about it this way. If someone said, I'm so depressed my sister died, go see a doctor.

1:12:36You need to get something done about that. But if I said, I'm so sad my sister died, of course you are. That's your sister. Notice there's less to fix when we allow our feelings. But depression is very serious. us, see a psychiatrist, a good psychiatrist can tell you grief versus clinical depression.

1:12:58Lewis Howes:Yeah. For anyone that feels afraid of the future, whether it be their relationship, their health, the economy, wars, any number of things that could cause uncertainty or fear in someone, how can they use this information that you have in your work and your books to navigate the uncertainties of the world for the future, the uncertainties of loss of anything. So the biggest thing that I think about is anxiety, fear of the future, really challenging, and you're in the future. Now, why are we in the future? Because something bad has happened in our past. We are not fearful. We are predicting. We are trying to manage what's going to happen here because if it's the fan, I need a plan.

1:13:54That's why we're catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, all that. We're protectors. And if you're in the future, I have enormous compassion because something bad happened that's asking to be attended to.

1:14:10Lewis Howes:Yeah, to prepare. And that past needs attention. And if you're in your future, do you know what you can't be? In your present. And loving and connecting. If love and connection helps us and we're in our future, we're in trouble. So many times I'll be working with someone who's saying they're really anxious and they go out and they see their friends and it doesn't work out well. And I'll go, what happens? while I sit down with my friend, I tell them how anxious I am. And I go, and then eventually they say nice to see me and leave. And I go, so here's the plan. You got to go. We're going to be together for an hour today.

1:14:56I'd like to take a chunk of that and just tell you what's going on with me. And then really keep me accountable. And then I want to hear what's going on with you. and I want to be really present for you too. Then we suddenly have a connection and instead of one person living in the future, two people have brought themselves into the present. Changes everything. Love and connection only can happen in the now.

1:15:29Lewis Howes:If someone is always stressed and worrying about the future, what is that signaling about that person? Is it that they have a pain from the past that's unresolved? They have something from the past that's asking for their attention. And they're playing it out that way. Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be like a really productive and really successful and really doing amazing things in the world. It's how do we do it? I mean, I've been successfully doing things in unhealthy ways and in healthy ways, and it feels different on the inside. And I know that. And I mean, we're all struggling. I mean, believe me, I'm sure I could say it about like, whatever you think, we got stuff going on.

1:16:17We always do. And if we don't today, it's coming tomorrow and we'll be able to manage it.

1:16:22Lewis Howes:What's your biggest fear for humanity over the next 10 years based on what we've been through with COVID and wars over the last six, seven years and the predictions of the future with all the changes of AI and financial currencies and wars and conflict. What is your worry on humanity's ability to be loving it in the moment? We will give away our power. We'll give away our power, whether it's to our government, leaders, whatever it is we're going to give our power away or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I really made sure it didn't say generic stuff that you can find anywhere. I created it just from my work.

1:17:13It's better for the environment. It helps people in so many ways. Look, I can be up in the middle of the night if I happen to be scrolling and seeing there's a woman in Serbia whose child just died, I can get on WhatsApp and call and talk to her in Serbia for an hour right after her child died. Can't do that often. AI helps me help people at 3 a.m. because grief's 24 hours a day. So that's a really wonderful thing about AI if it's curated and safely done. On the other hand, you know, it can take over the world and, you know, we're in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our power away to the people who are managing it.

1:18:00Find your own power and use it to change something. If you could prescribe that

1:18:08Lewis Howes:every person watching and listening master one skill to have more love, harmony, peace for the future, no matter what happens as they're going to go through different challenges in life, they're going to go through different grief and losses and unmet changes. What's the one skill you would prescribe everyone to learn or master to be able to navigate the uncertainties of what will happen in the future. Get support. Get support. You know, it's a strange thing. I had a flat tire and when I got new tires, I bought a tire plan. I bought a plan for my tires in case I hit a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I don't treat myself well, But I protected my tires.

1:19:01So if we can get support, it doesn't have to be a therapist or a grief group or a divorce group or whatever it is. Just talk to a friend. Share. Find a way to connect with someone else. Connection is everything.

1:19:21Lewis Howes:Yes. Just connect with one other person. And if you can't connect, go help. Go volunteer. here. That'll help you a lot. Your book's called Finding Meaning, The Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler. I want you guys to check this out. For me, when I learned how to navigate grief and loss and heal, it created such a level of peace and abundance inside of me. And it didn't mean I was like perfect overnight and it didn't, you know, I still have stresses. But when I learned how to navigate these skills, it gave me, it unlocked my life in ways I never knew were possible. So I want people to get your book.

1:20:03Lewis Howes:I also did a workbook with it because I want people to go, what's grief work? It's like, this is like me sitting down with you at your kitchen table. We're going to do it together. Yeah. And I think the workbook is probably the best place to start because if you're afraid to speak in front of other people, then it's almost like you have a, you know, you working with them through a workbook where you can be introspective rather than in a group setting. But like you said, the best place to go next is with a group. Whether you're paying for a therapist, you're meeting a small group somewhere, and you have aboutgrief.com has Tender Hearts online grief groups.

1:20:41Lewis Howes:Is that right? Aboutgrief.com is a free video that just teaches you about grief. My website is grief.com. You can find our Tender Hearts grief group there. We got 26 groups around people dying, whether it's a brother or sister. We've got a faith group, an afterlife group. We even got an anticipatory grief group for people whose loved ones are sick. And these are all online? All online. And we've got like a time for Australia, a time for Europe. You know, we've really honed that really well to help people. No one's turned away for lack of funds. We make sure everyone has access to that. That's cool.

1:21:22And the other thing you can find on grief.com is we got an amazing grief certificate program. People who want to turn their pain into purpose. You know, not everyone can do books or podcasts, but maybe you could be the person in your neighborhood that people know how to come to, or maybe you could be the therapist or a coach that becomes really good and understands the changes we can make when we get this part of our life.

1:21:49Lewis Howes:Wow. Okay. So that's all at grief.com? Grief.com. You can find it all there. That's amazing. And what's the difference between online grief group versus in person? You know, I was the first to say when that whole thing started, I was like, I don't know that emotions will translate. And someone said to me, have you been to a movie? Like emotions translate. But it's great because I watched the struggle for years of people who went, I want just a suicide group, but I'm in a group of widows or my local one doesn't have a group for siblings or, you know, I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to be with older widows.

1:22:29We can do them. Wow. We can just do them online in your time zone so easy.

1:22:35Lewis Howes:And does someone, when they join one of these grief groups, do they go once a week, once a month? What is this process? We have it where it's four times a week that they have the options to attend. And it's like, you want to go into a group? Great. Two times a week, you can see me working with one person. Someone volunteers to work with me. Everyone else watches. And people go, why would that help? That person asks a question, you didn't know you needed the answer. And it changes you. And then on Fridays, we have a different topic because there's not one voice in grief, not mine, not yours. And it's like, let's take a topic and discuss it.

1:23:17How did you handle guilt? How do you handle being happy? How do you handle the things that people say that are cruel?

1:23:26Lewis Howes:You know, it's interesting. I was coaching someone at an event a few weeks ago, and it was a widow, a woman who had lost her husband. that she was in love with. And I think it was about maybe 10 years ago and she's remarried. She's got a blended family and I think new kids as well in the remarriage. And she was like, one of the hardest things for me has been like feeling good, like accepting that I feel really good where I'm at now. I feel guilty being happy. When other people are not happy, they're still grieving. They feel like you're never going to be able to find someone again. You're not allowed to have love and joy and happiness again when you've lost your husband or someone close to you.

1:24:15Lewis Howes:And she goes, it feels really good to finally start to be able to say, I'm worthy of feeling happy again and love again, even though I lost a great man that I loved as well. That's a story we often play in our mind of disloyalty. look really I'm going to be happy again after my son died that doesn't sound like a good parent but I had to really think about who my son is and am I being loyal to him by not living again is that really what he would want and I'll tell you I can imagine I don't know what the afterlife is like but I could imagine whatever it is how many years from now decades I arrive in the afterlife and I meet my son.

1:25:05It's great. We finally see each other again. And he says to me, oh my gosh, tell me about earth. Wasn't it incredible? And I go, well, I grieved. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sure you did. That had to be hard. It was really brutal. I get it. And what about like, I missed the food. Was the food, what else did you go places? Did you traveled? And I'm like, no, I just grieved. My son would be like, dude, life's too incredible to miss. And here's the thing. It's a decision. She made a decision. You know, I live in a cute little neighborhood with these little small houses. And I can imagine I knew there was a moment where I could have been the grief guy that never left his house again.

1:25:56And I could imagine the teenagers driving by going, is that a haunted house? No, it's a grief expert whose son died and he never came out again. Oh, my gosh. I could have seen that, but it was a decision to live again. Wow. And each of us, in small ways and big ways, not just around death, have that decision every day. Do we show up? Do we live again? Do we sink? Every one of us is deciding that constantly, no matter what your circumstances are.

1:26:35Lewis Howes:I've got a couple of final questions for you, David, but I want to acknowledge you first for not being stuck in your house after grief and coming out and finding ways to expand and live even with more joy, more love, more acceptance, and, um, continuing to be of service to so many people who are going through this and ultimately finding meaning in the process, because I think that's, does what makes life richer. And when I can look back on my life, you know, I don't like that the five-year-old in me had to experience sexual abuse, but I can find meaning now and not say I wish it happened again, but I can find meaning saying it did happen.

1:27:14Lewis Howes:And because I'm able to process it now and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to help other people by being able to sit with them or being able to share this story with you without it crippling me like it used to. And so that meaning that you've created is really powerful and I acknowledge you for that. I have two final questions for you. This is called the three truths. So imagine hypothetically you get to live as long as you want, but on the final day, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book, this podcast, everything you've ever created, everything you create from now until that day is gone.

1:27:50Lewis Howes:Not from this world anymore. But you get to leave behind three final lessons with the world that we would get to keep. I call it the three truths. What would those be for you? Love is all that matters. Let the good just saturate in you. Take in the good. We know how to take in the bad. Take in the good and be you. It's a strange thing. Like those of us who have really done this work know being you sounds like the easiest thing in the world to be your authentic self. It's the hardest thing to let go of all the who we think we should be. Just be ourselves. I still work on that all the time. I'm going to not only leave that behind for everyone, I'm going to try to continue to take it in.

1:28:36Lewis Howes:That's beautiful. Final question, David, what's your definition of greatness? Showing up for others and yourself. Showing up fully for others and yourself. David Kessler, thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Amazing. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes.

1:29:16Lewis Howes:I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts, share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

1:29:53Lewis Howes:I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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