The Hidden Prisons Trapping You & How to Break Free

31:14Because oftentimes we're just living in a space that no longer exists. Like my past does not exist anymore. I'm not in that moment anymore. My future hasn't arrived, so I can only be here in this moment with you and Chris, which I feel so grateful for, you know, to hear Chris articulate his experience and this mirroring some of the things that I've navigated, right? That's how you, like, get out of the shame, and that's how you start to create a new scorecard is just being present in the moment, you know? That's interesting. Yeah. And Chris, do you feel like you were holding on to or trying to hide the past after you got out of jail for a while the first few years?

31:56And I just heard you and Chaka talking about saying, I'm just going to go be a musician and not talk about this and let, you know, let this be in the past. Oh, it's fine. Yeah. When I first got out, I remember I applied for this thing to go to some teaching and it was like a music slash whatever. And I, and I proposed, I said, I'm going to talk about, you know, like drugs and I'm going to talk about, you know, try to impart some of these messages to encourage kids. And some of the feedback I got from this particular application was like, no, just stick with the music. We don't want you to talk about this other thing.

32:32But I don't know. Maybe that made you feel shameful. Who knows? You know, there could have been a lot of different factors. I mean, the fact is, right now, I'm wanting to lean more back into this because I sense that it's important for me to develop. It's important for me to lean into it as opposed to away from it. And recently I've reconnected with re-entry communities. And that's been really inspiring because I feel like when I'm in a room, in that room with formerly incarcerated people, I feel like I belong in that room. I feel like there's a way that I can be authentic that I don't always feel in any other spaces.

33:12Even just like connecting with you, you know, before the show, there's just a, there's a sort of understanding and a feeling of being seen for who I am and a feeling of not needing to be ashamed actually. Yeah. And so I think that... Why is that? I don't know why. Do you know why? I mean, when we're in prison, I think you do learn to see the prisoners as being human. And when I first got locked up... And you went for drugs, right? Yeah, it was a drug charge. Yeah, it was trafficking LSD. And when I first got locked up, we came from the same family. And I was on full scholarship at Ohio State University at the time.

33:53and I have been identified as quote unquote academically gifted and all these things. And a lot of people thought that what I did was kind of like, didn't really count as a crime. It's kind of like, but it did, but you know, but that was like an old narrative of like, oh, it's just drugs. And so when I went in, I kind of had this narrative inside that was like, well, I'm a drug dealer. And you, I think you see a lot of this in prison. Like people are like, well there's a there's a hierarchy of you're always trying to say like it's not i'm not as bad as that guy you know right and so i kind of have that that story when i went in but the longer i was in the more i saw like i'm exactly the same as everybody else here yeah like why is that yeah i think well i think part of it was that i saw the people that i was with as being deeply human and you know that there was so much i could learn from them that they had so much rich knowledge and wisdom and soulfulness and that, that there, you know, my relationships with them were meaningful.

34:53And I was learning so much from the people that I met in prison. Yeah. And, you know, the idea would be that like, you know, because I had all these good grades and like the full, that I should be the one that's teaching. And I did teach a lot of musicians. A lot of, a lot of people came to me to teach them about music, but I learned more from them, you know? And so I think maybe another answer to your question is that through positive relationships is a way to hopefully work through some of this shame. Just surround yourself with people who see you as human and constantly give you that feedback of valuing that humanity.

35:32What were the three biggest lessons each one of you learned in jail? whether it be from a person that said something something you observed something you experienced yourself you know three biggest lessons i'll let you start chris i mean that would probably be one of them is that knowledge um comes from in more places and more people than we are taught to believe and that we can really enrich our perspectives the more that we listen to a wide variety of voices that knowledge can come from so many different things. I think another lesson that I learned was that, and this is maybe kind of a, even a cliche, but like when things are hard, we have the capability of being hard.

36:24And when things are not hard, we can get soft real quick. And so we have to be, you know, my experience is that we have to constantly be vigilant about that. Because again, when you're really suffering with things that are hard, you can rise to the occasion. But it can be easy to become soft and in bad ways. And in being soft, like not taking care of yourself, you're doing yourself a disservice. And that's something you have to cultivate. As far as a third lesson, I think that the lesson that I want to always be present to is the lesson that I've also heard you speak eloquently about, which is when you came out, how much gratitude you had for the simple things in life.

37:14That's something that I want to be more present to. I think prison teaches you much more about the levels of how much can be taken from you. And it teaches you to value intimacy and trust and freedom. There's probably a lot of other lessons, but that's three that I got for now. What about for you, Shaka? Man, so many lessons. I would say one of the big lessons I've learned from prison that applies to life is that even the great amongst us can fall short. And that even the lowliest of us can rise again. And that is something I've learned in prison from just being around incredible, incredible men.

38:04Some of the most inspiring men that I've ever met in my life. A second lesson that I would say is one of the ones that probably is the most near and dear to my heart is being in service of others is one of the greatest expressions of our humanity. Something that I've carried, you know, I'm always in service of specifically young people and people who are marginalized and who have been forgotten about or demeaned by society. And then I would just, I think the third one is, um, it's kind of like the third one is that prison doesn't define you. It just reveals the essence of who you are. And like that to me is rooted in, you know, this question that I get often of like, how did you become so resilient?

38:57And I'm like, I didn't go in prison knowing I was resilient. It wasn't until I was in the story that I began to recognize this deeper part of what it means to be able to overcome adversity. And that's what prison revealed to me about myself is that as someone who's had, I mean, just incredible amounts of trauma and adversity, I also have an indomitable will to overcome those things. um and so those those are probably the big key lessons but i mean it's like chris says there's so many more um when he was speaking about naming naming the things right i was i was really like struck in my spirit about an idea of like fear and something that's really interesting in society is we always talk about people who are courageous um but you can't have courage if you were never afraid it's true like if you're not if you're not afraid then that doesn't require you to be courageous yeah um but if you were ever been courageous in your life if you've ever done anything where you like man i it took courage to do that that means that you had fear and you did it anyway yeah and so i lived my life in that space of like going forward in spite of um and so that was great that we get a chance to name you know these feelings and these emotions and these thoughts and like I'm just so grateful right now to be in conversation with you and learn from your journey likewise to see where it's brought you and where it's taken you so it's incredible it's powerful this is powerful and again I'm for anyone watching or listening I think anyone can relate to the feeling of not feeling free in their life at some point yeah maybe it's right now in a relationship maybe it's in their career maybe they don't feel free in their body they don't feel free in their mind.

40:48They feel anxious and stressed all the time. And the goal is how do we create as much inner peace and freedom as possible to experience life to the fullest, have beautiful relationships and feel joy as often as possible. Amen. And it doesn't mean we're not going to experience challenges and limiting thoughts and grief and sadness and go through hard seasons. Yeah. But how do we not let those hard seasons turn into hard years and a hard lifetime and overcome them through grace. I'm curious, the synchronicities here are really cool. I didn't even realize you guys both went in essentially the same year and you're the same age until we got here earlier.

41:25But it's been almost 35 years since you both went in. Is that correct? Yeah. Because you're both 54. You went in around 1920. Sorry, 53. 53, 34 years, almost 34 years, right? Over three decades, three and a half decades almost since you went in. If each of you could go back and talk to your younger self the day before the crime or day before the action happened where you got sentenced, essentially. If you could say something to your younger self at this version, like you as now going back shotgun and walking right up to the younger 19 version of you. If you could say something, you had a minute to say something, what would you say for one?

42:17And two, do you think what you say would actually matter for you changing and not deciding to take that action? Would it have made a difference? So I'm curious about that. I'll have you both say, reply to this. What would you say to your younger self right before the crime? Wow, that's a great question. What I would say to that 19-year-old kid is, you are deserving of therapy and treatment to address what happened to you. And you should feel okay with seeking that out, even though it wasn't offered. And then the second part of that question is that based on my mentoring young men and young women who come from similar backgrounds, who have had similar experiences, I think it would have worked.

43:24Really? If you were eye to eye with your younger self from your version now. My version now. If you sat with him before that day happened and you said this, you think you could have gotten through your younger self? I think so. And I say that because I've gotten through to enough young men at this version of myself now. Interesting. Who have come off, you know, being victims of gun violence. And I've encouraged them to actually seek out therapy. And I've created the space for them to realize that that doesn't make them weak. it makes them human and that is going to empower them to make different life decisions and so to get the type of letters i get from the young man that i've met on this part of my journey and how they say that one conversation wow helped them think about life differently make different decisions you know it requires what's required to do that is a deep understanding of all those consequences.

44:26And you said something earlier that I love is that when you enter these spaces, you're not doing a scared straight program. These young men need to be loved straight. Like Jason Wilson, what he's doing. It's like acting eye to eye, being vulnerable. Yeah. So I think it works in that context because I've seen it work enough times. Okay. What about you, Chris? what would you say that that resonates a lot i think that i would i would say to that young man um i would name some of those feelings that that he's feeling and i would say it's okay to feel those things um you know these are these are um and it's okay to get help um and i would try to also point that young man towards the hope of a positive vision for his life and all the joy and love and connection and purpose that he could tap into because I think he was missing all of that all those things at that moment yeah I don't know if he would listen if it was just one day but if I had enough time and if I could if I could you know wrap around him and like hold him back from certain things, then maybe it would have changed.

45:45I guess the challenge is, you know, this is what, late 80s, early 90s? When was this? Early 90s. Early 90s? There was not even talk of therapy back then. That's the challenge. So it's like, now guys know, they hear of it more. They see it more. If you would have said that word in the early 90s, they'd have been like, what? Like, that's a crazy thing. But it's more acceptable now. It's more talked about in culture. You see pro athletes talking about it. artists you know you see other men that you might be inspired by talking about these things but no one's talking about in the 90s yeah so who knows if you would have been receptive i have no idea maybe you would have but now these kids are teenagers who are more open to it because they see men talking about it they see oprah talking about it with you and they're like oh that's cool that's interesting it's not a shameful thing to talk about yeah back then it was very shameful Oh, absolutely.

46:40So that's the, I think it's a challenge you guys faced culturally. Absolutely. In the early nineties that it was, you couldn't show any other way than scaring people straight. Yeah. You couldn't show vulnerability because there was no model of it that was acceptable. No, it's true. I mean, unless you guys tell me wrong, unless you saw something on TV where men were open and vulnerable and talking to Oprah and doing these things where, you know, they were like, Like, hey, let's talk about our fears and let's talk about our shame. No one was doing that back then, right? No, no, we weren't. And I mean, even now there's, I mean, we're still overcoming and fighting against those stigmas, you know, especially when you factor in some of the environmental realities, right?

47:22And, you know, I think that we're definitely way further along than we ever were back then. But I, you know, I also think that, you know, how we even got here is that we had great translators. and you know that's what I would have hoped that I could have been for that kid is how do you translate something that seems so complex and so counterintuitive into something that is you know you know available to you I mean that's what I had in prison I had incredible mentors and they realized that the approach to me like you can't scare me straight I just came off a street where people who shoot AKs all the time.

47:59And so what they, what they saw was that if they could, you know, get me to be just curious about life and reading and things like that, and then they can challenge that part of me that was very rebellious. Right. So I would, I would, these, these mentors, they were master teachers and what they would do is they challenged me with books and words and they would say, well, you didn't read that book. Cause if you did, What does it say in chapter 8? You know, what was what was Socrates talking about in this dialogue? What was Malcolm talking about in this story? And I was like, oh, I actually did read it So now we're in the dust-up, right?

48:36But it was feeding that part of that young You know lying on the yard or that testosterone and it was just directly to intellect And so I would go and had these like incredible debates in the law library with these master teachers without even knowing that they were actually teaching me. They were teaching me how to research. They were teaching me how to defend my position. They were teaching me how to arrive at an argument that I believed in and that I cared enough about to vocalize. And they did it in a way that was approachable. They did it in a way that was accessible. If they would have just came in like, hey, you need to do these things to change your life, instant war would have been up.

49:16You know, and so when I think about going back, you know, it's like, OK, you go back with the wisdom of now is that you got to set the table. You know, you have to set the table right for someone to come in and enjoy that spiritually rich food. And if you set the table right, the likelihood of them being able to lower those walls is higher than if you just come in hot and heavy. Like, you know, if you don't do this, you're going to tear up and destroy your life. what is the one conversation you wish you could have with every young man or woman who's going through some type of feelings of being trapped or they've been traumatized and they can't get past the trauma or the feeling of you know anxiety depression fear uncertainty what's the one conversation you wish you could have with any young man or woman so the way that i think about it is it's more about the idea of the young man or woman that inhabits the body of adult men and women because what you think about this audience inside all of us is that kid young little boy girl intended to right and and what I what I would say is that one of my my quotables is like never settle for mediocrity when greatness is available.

50:44You know, that's a conversation I always have with the young people that I mentor, but also with my peers when we're in deep conversation about acknowledging what exists inside of us, which is that young person who's still looking for validation, still looking to be affirmed, still looking for somebody to bolster their confidence, is recognizing we don't have to stop loving on that little person inside of us. We don't have to stop being curious. One of the chapters in the book is on joy. And one of the breakdowns is about being a joy hunter. How do you go out and find that joy that feeds that inner kid?

51:25Because that's how you get to great outcomes is when you can be curious. I also talk about a mentor who I had. He worked in a prison. I'm curious if you had this type of mentor, but he was a civilian employee. and he asked me a question that literally changed the trajectory of my life. He was outside of the prison. He would come in and team care coach. Yeah, he came in and ran a recreation program. What did he ask you? He asked me, what else could I do with my mind? And this was in relation to he saw my organizational ability because I organized the men on the yard that I went to war with. He saw my entrepreneurial skill set because I ran every hustle you could from the yard.

52:06In a negative sense. In a negative sense. It was all illegal, but, you know. And then he saw my intellectual acumen because he would read things that I had written in a prison newspaper. And that's when he just pulled me to the side. And he was like, like, you run a yard. Like, you're, you know, I wasn't a model. Just to be clear, I wasn't like a model prisoner. Like, I was drug trafficking, ordering hits. I was in full-on wars on the yard. and he still saw something that was there. And he literally asked me that question. What else can you do with your mind? That's a question I'm asking myself at 53.

52:44You know, this is why I've been able to accomplish the many things that I've done. I'm still entertaining that little kid, you know, that 19-year-old boy, that 22-year-old, that 25-year-old. And what I would hope is that, you know, your audience takes away is that hidden prisons have no age limit. Healing has no age limit. That little kid inside of us deserves to be loved. And so those are the conversations that I would have. It's like, yeah. Did you ever hear that from anyone when you were in your 20s about the kid inside of you deserves to be loved? It wasn't until I was probably in my 30s. I ran across this random them book i worked in the law library and we would get people would donate books all the time like literally like your books are probably being donated which is super important uh my books are being donated now uh in the prisons and sometimes they would just get these boxes of books and they wouldn't pass them out i come across this book called house of healing house of healing houses of healing and i started reading this book and one of the things that struck me is it talked about resolving conflict by being able to see the little kid inside the person you were in argument with.

53:58That changed how I oriented myself toward the end of my incarceration. And that's the first time I was like, man, this is like you can love on yourself when you see the kid in other people. And once I started seeing that in other men, I was like, oh, this is a temper tantrum. Like he doesn't want beef. He's literally having a temper tantrum because he can't name the thing. He can't articulate that whatever happened between us caused him anxiety or trigger some unhealed trauma. But I can see it as clear as day. And it literally changed how I oriented myself in that environment. And, you know, I was able to resolve conflict instantaneously by being empathetic and compassionate.

54:48while still being firm in who I am. Sure, wow. But I don't have to tear you down or destroy you or stab you or blunding you in order for us to arrive at something that honors both of our humanity. Wow. And that showed up in work life. It shows up in my social impact work today. It's like whenever I see an adult having a moment, I'm like, oh, they're just having that temper tantrum. Wow. It doesn't go away. Yeah. Like that trauma that we experienced early in childhood and how we learn to resolve that, it doesn't go away. It just comes up differently. Yeah. And some people, you know, they might not have had the same traumas of you, but they still don't know how to deal with it.

55:32Absolutely. Even if it wasn't as extreme, right, of their trauma. It's still, we don't need to judge how much someone's had trauma or how little they had trauma. They've experienced it. They don't know how to process it. Our mind has no judgment with trauma, right? And that's the thing. I think culturally, we get into comparative analysis. That's just the way we tell stories in the world. But trauma is trauma. Yeah. You know, and that it doesn't you don't have to go. You know, that's what a subtitle was about, the hidden prisons. There's even one part where I talk about well-intended prisons where it's like you don't even realize this thing is holding you back because on the outside, it doesn't look harmful.

56:16But it's like you're in a relationship. You break up with this person. But, you know, like we're broken up, but we'll remain friends. But you say you want to get married and you want to have a relationship, but you have a whole thing that's anchoring your anchor to because you haven't cut it loose. Yes. You know, it's the helicopter parent. No helicopter parent is sitting out like, hey, I'm going to be a bad parent. They think that what they're doing is protecting, but it's preventing their child from building resilience. You know, it's preventing them from making choices, et cetera. It's well intended.

56:50You know, and so that's the hidden part of all of these things where we we started to compare ourselves to others experience. And we were talking earlier where 19 years is no different to me than 19 minutes of losing your freedom, your dignity, being abused, whatever that brings up. You don't have to compare it like hard is hard. You know what I'm saying? And so the way that our minds work, it's not looking at the package that is delivered in. All our mind is saying, hey, something doesn't feel right. This isn't right. And I'm going to react to that, right? And so you don't even have to compare.

57:32Yeah. But we've all gone through enough in life to where it shapes how we think about our experiences. 100%. Chris, when did you feel like you were able to start doing therapy or any type of therapy to support your journey? When was that? I mean, I had some therapy when I was in high school. And so I was already like hip to it. I was like hip to the idea. Yeah. And so it was just always something that I pursued when I was locked up. At the time, we had access to Pell Grants and we could go to college. I believe, uh, same thing happened for Shaka. And, uh, so that was a real important thing. That was like a lifeline for me in prison to be able to take classes from professors that would come in.

58:21And, um, yeah, so I, so I took a lot of psychology classes as well as philosophy. And then I just kept, I've just kept it up ever since then. So, you know, I like to go to therapy. I like to also listen to podcasts that are, you know, read books and all that kind of thing, wherever I can learn emotional intelligence tools. Where do you feel like both of you would be if you didn't do therapy after your experiences? I think that there's such a strong impulse to react as opposed to respond consciously to all the things that are around us. I think that based on the amount of even things that happened to me when I was young, but also from prison, you know like i would just be um i would be violent and unruly reactive yeah reactive and so that's really like that's one of the the biggest things that i'm that i'm conscious to is trying to um learn to respond from an intentional mindful place and uh yeah like i said earlier i think that this is one of the big problems we have as as men is that uh is that combination of not having those tools to overcome those traumas and learn how to respond.

59:46Where do you feel like you'd be if you didn't have some type of therapeutic expression to heal from the past? Yeah. So I've had a couple of therapists since I've been out of prison, and neither of them worked for me. largely because I think they just became so infatuated that I survived solitary confinement like tell me I kind of became their therapist and I was like I was like y 'all should be paying me um but but I I will say the the the self-practice of healing um you know doing the hard work being able to you know again I was lucky I was literate you know so I was able to read a lot of books about trauma, undoing trauma, unpacking it, you know, figuring out these tools that I can use, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, being in community with, you know, people who were where I wanted to be in my life in terms of how I wanted to feel about myself, people who had a healthy orientation, I would probably be like the other, you know, 70 % of people who end up back in prison.

1:00:55You know, society is very unforgiving. is it 70 percent of people that get out of prison end up back in prison absolutely really yeah yeah it is um so i'm sure i would i would be counted amongst those those people who went back because one society is not as forgiving as we would like to believe um any of us who've made anything of our lives post incarceration is because we probably had a type of determination and grit to do it the right way that superseded our ability to fall into the depression trap and the, hey, I'm a failure, you know, all the things that society is constantly telling you. You know, even going back to shame, you know, I forgot about this piece.

1:01:43Anytime I have to fill out an application and it asks, have you ever been convicted of a felony? You know, that it brings back like, man, when does this stop? You know, when does, when is enough enough? You know, so I think I think without. Yeah, it's like I already had the punishment and I'm still being punished. Still being punished. Even though I did my time. Yeah. So we're in a society that doesn't, you know, think kindly about those of us who run afoul of the law. It's hard to get employment, housing. I mean, it's 44 ,000 collateral consequences of having a felony. And so, yeah, I think without the, you know, therapeutic outlook I've had on life, you know, the many failures I've had this side of incarceration, not the times I wasn't called back after a great interview, the times I was denied housing, the times I was denied insurance and like the list goes on and on and on where those things can be very much like a trigger that says to you, nothing I do will ever be enough.

1:02:48Right. Man, how do you overcome that then? Yeah. So for me, it was realizing that people who've never had a felony have had failure. People who have never had my background have been not, have not got the call back, um, that they have to overcome maybe different things, but part of this journey of an adulthood is like, you have to fight for what you want in life. And so just that awareness that I'm not alone on this journey and that while it may be specific to my experience, it's not unique in overall adult experience. That's helped me to navigate it, you know? And then I'll say the last part for me was that.

1:03:31I never wanted to never want or desire to ever, ever have my life controlled by somebody who's intellectually inferior to me. And like that was just enough for me to be like, you know what? I'm never going back there. I don't know how I'm going to do whatever it takes to stay out, but I know that I'm never going back. I never want to be in that situation again. Wow. I want to ask about forgiveness because I think forgiveness is a big part to everyone's life. And I think when we don't learn to forgive, specifically ourselves, we are in some type of a prison. Absolutely. Internally. So there's forgiving others, you know, the people that maybe influenced you in your environment, friends, family, outsiders who influenced you to become who you were to get into that space.

1:04:26But then there's forgiving yourself, which I think can be even harder. Was it harder to forgive the people around you or to forgive yourself? And what allowed you to start forgiving in general? I'll let you start. i probably it's harder for me to forgive myself um than to forgive other people um what allowed me to forgive myself have you have you allowed yourself to forgive yourself i think to some degree yeah and i think it's a just a process that keeps ongoing and i think continuing to do the work of you know living intentionally uh and putting myself doing good habits you know all the same habits that i was working on prison in in prison um and putting myself in service to people and in positive affirming relationships and maintaining that i think all that's helping me to free up myself.

1:05:27It is. What about you, Shaka? Ooh, forgiveness is the big one. So my journey to forgiveness has been this long, incredible, winding road. And what I will say to your audience is this. When you ask the universe to give you something, the universe is going to test that. And when you proclaim to the world that this is what I believe. Your belief is going to be tested in a way that will blow your mind. But if you trust the process, it'll unlock everything you've ever thought possible for your life. Forgiveness for me was that. A couple of years ago, I got a letter from the man who shot me when I was 17 years old.

1:06:16I saw this. This is crazy. It was... So someone shot you at 17. At 17. And then 16 months later, I shot and tragically caused the man's death. But you didn't know who shot you. I never saw his face. Wow. A 30-second argument escalated to gunfire. He shot, drove off. I ran and went to the hospital. And all I heard was rumors of who this guy was. I was out. After I got out of the hospital, I'm on a hunt trying to find this guy. And eventually the rumor was that he was locked up for killing somebody else. Never knew if it was true or not. Never encountered him in prison. Nearly 30 years later, I get a letter.

1:07:00This guy encountered one of my books in prison. He's reading a story of me talking about being shot. He realized he was the shooter. Wow. He writes me a letter apologizing and saying to himself that he took on the responsibility of the life decision I made that led me to prison. And he felt partially responsible for that. Wow. At the time he wrote me, he was in prison. When I got the letter, what it did is it triggered the old me. I can have this guy taken care of. Done. For little or nothing. Tomorrow. Instantaneously. Gosh. And I was like, oh, this is how the universe tests what you really believe.

1:07:50Oh, man, that's heavy. And so what I did is I sat down and I started to write him back. And then I decided that I didn't owe him that letter because forgiveness for me was really about me. So instead, what I did is I looked him up on the computer. I just wanted to see what this guy who had been a ghost in my life, what he looked like. saw what he looked like that ghost went away and I decided to write my mother because I had this experience where I thought I had forgiven my mother for the abuses and all the things as a child and what I did is that I told her I forgave her because it was a noble thing and it was all about my ego and you didn't feel it I didn't feel it but I also attached something to it is that now she has to change and become this mother that I desire.

1:08:45You put a condition on it. Condition. Forgiveness with a condition really isn't forgiveness. It's not forgiveness, right. And so that's when I realized that true forgiveness is really about letting go of a moment. And that person doesn't have to change. They don't have to be receptive. They don't have to be anything. If you desire to be free, then you have to free yourself. And when I did that, it just changed the dynamic of my relationship with my mother, where I feel more like the parent now. And the power and the beauty of it is that I get a chance to love on that little girl who was hurt, that turned into the hurt mother who hurt her kids.

1:09:28Yeah, and you may still not enjoy it, or you may wish there was a different scenario where I wish my mother could be this way. I wish my mother, I wish I wasn't parenting my mom. You can still have that feeling and also love and accept her and forgive her. Yeah. And grieve the loss of a life you wish you could have with her. Absolutely. And also love her for who she is. And just reimagine a new way of being. Yes. And when you let go, fully let go of that thing that you're holding on, life reorances so. and whether that person is in your life or not you're not carrying this albatross around your neck that you beat yourself up with over and over you know like i learned with my mother that my mother had went through so many things in her young life and i was like oh this is the universe is delivering on everything that i said i wanted and it's and it's really putting it front and center you know you want to be compassionate and empathetic and you talk about being able to love on the child.

1:10:29Well, here, look at your mother. Look at her, Johnny. Yeah. Look at her, Johnny. Can you handle what she's went through and still see her as a full human being, even though she hurt you when you was a kid? That's the power of life. Wow. Yeah. What's the thing both of you struggle with the most after 33 plus years in England? what do i struggle with the most um in in regards to what's still what's still something you feel like you struggle with trying to overcome or letting go of that's maybe hold you back from time to time or you wish you didn't have to hold on to or you wish you weren't still reliving or experiencing or yeah i think that um this one of these uh questions when i went to jail it was like code of what it is to be a man this kind of you know one of these big questions it always felt unresolvable to me um which is there's no answer yeah well this this well it's like the dilemma of non-violence right like i think that's a very difficult um spot to to find the answer to for me yeah because like you know when I was in jail I remember distinctly feeling like this is you know being between a rock and a hard place because if somebody you know threatens you or disrespects you then you either have to meet that you have to escalate that with violence or you have to retreat from it and either of those choices both can have very profound consequences interesting And I know that there's like, you know, great thinkers that have articulated the nonviolent, you know, like maybe you can't do that in prison like you could in outside of prison.

1:12:26Maybe it's different. I don't know. Yeah. But I still think it's something that like, you know, we carry with us, you know, and it's and now maybe I'm doing myself a disservice by, you know, maybe I'm nitpicking because because I mean, I don't I'm not violent, you know, obviously. But it's just trying to kind of find consistency, more consistency of feeling peaceful and having harmonious responses day to day. Yeah. I don't know if it's really a struggle, but it's something that I'm conscious of. Yeah, yeah. What about you? Is there anything you still struggle with today? um i i think one of the one of my biggest the biggest things that i've been unpacking over the years is like there can be an emotional hardness to me hardness yeah not a not a tenderness sometimes yeah yeah where it's very it can be very just kind of like i can cut things off and keep it moving and not even blink.

1:13:35And I don't, I don't like that. You know, so I'm constantly working on that part of, of, of my healing journey. Um, and I think that's probably the biggest one is that, you know, prison, prison hardens you. Like, you don't, you know, it's, it's, it's one of the things I, you know, I tell people, I'm like, you know, Chris and I, I think we look like two lovely gentlemen and you'll probably have great time hanging out with us. And then there's a language that only he and I understand. That's real. That's true. That's like you can, the way that you orient to the world is very different than what people would imagine when they see the smile and they see the laughter and they see the joy.

1:14:14And then there's this other part of us that comes from that experience. And part of it is that you have to disassociate from your body so much while you're in there. Wow. You know, the first arrest and someone strips you naked. Like there's, in order to normalize that level of depravity and that dehumanization, you have to disconnect. And then you're in this very volatile environment where there's constant violent eruptions. And you have to start emotionally hardening yourself toward, oh, this is just life on the yard. This is just what it is. You know, a guy get into an argument over$2 that leads to bloodshed.

1:14:58Oh, this is a normal day in prison. And so when you experience that for year after year after year after year, it hardens you emotionally in a way to where the work that it takes to embrace your humanity and to be compassionate and empathetic when you see someone that is hurting or who's been hurt. or, you know, someone who's having that, you know, that adult temper tantrum that's directed towards you and to still be able to love that person and not just cut them off and be like, move on. And not just go back into that old way of being. Yeah, where they no longer exist, right? And so that is the toughest part of anything else that's been hard is like the toughest part has been that.

1:15:48and how I've, you know, saw for it is like, you know, one being a mentor to young people, being a dad, being a husband, having my little, I have little neighbors. They're like, they're twins. They're like three. And then the oldest boy is like five and they love me. I think it's the hair, but they like, if I'm outside and they see me and they just run up and they're like, you know? And so it's those things that I embrace and I intentionally seek out to kind of soften that part of me. But that's tough. It's tough to let that go. I mean, speaking of fatherhood, both of you guys are parents. Two kids each.

1:16:31How do you both deal with being fathers to younger kids who learn about your experience? to, like, how do you navigate those conversations, but also parenting without feeling shame or fear for your children, for their lives? Yeah. How both of you navigated parenthood now. Yeah. I think for me, it's been Dr. Safali. She's great. Yeah, her book on conscious parenting. She's great. And one of the things that she just talked about is like, your children aren't your children, right? It's like, it reminded me of Khalil Jabbans, the prophet. And it's kind of like, We just get to bear witness to their lives.

1:17:13You know, I constantly remind myself that he has his own journey, you know. And then what I've done as a dad is I've just been intentional about sharing, hey, here's what my life was. Here's where I come from. What if that's really painful for your kids? What if it's really hard for them, like, to hear that? Because they love you, they care about you. How do you navigate that? I think kids need to hear hard things. You know, I think it builds resilience. I think they'll be fine. I think we live in a culture now that's kind of soft. Protecting them. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, with my son, I was like, here's what happened where I knew that I had to tell him the story.

1:17:56Kindergarten, taking him to school, literally like the night prior, Oprah Winfrey was on CNN with Van Jones and Ava DuVernay. Uh-huh. and Van asked her a question about her relationship with me. Really? And she got so excited and she was like, oh my God, I read this book, et cetera, et cetera. I get to the school the next day. I'm standing there dropping my son off. One of the parents comes up and it's like, oh my God, I heard Oprah Winfrey talking about you last night on the news. And it was a moment where I should have felt like pride, but I instantaneously thought about my son. because I was like, oh, parents are like, hey, your classmates' dad was on the news.

1:18:39And by the way, he was in prison for this. And I instantaneously was like, you know what? He's in kindergarten. I'll just tell him what it is in that language. And then over the years, I've just continued to do it. And like now, he probably can tell my story better than me because I bring him to the events. I bring him into the other side of it. So he used to come to my job where I work with men and women coming out of prison. He goes into community events where I'm talking about gun violence and the things, none of which his life looks like. But because that has happened consistently on his journey, he's now mature, you know, to the point where we can have real discussions about it.

1:19:23And I just think that's what, you know, whether it's any other thing, right, is with kids is, you know, sex is Internet is all these things. They're going to like we can't we can't protect them the way maybe our parents could have protected us a little bit because it's just so invasive. Right. And they have so much access. So I just think as a parent, you know, figure out the right language. Sure. You know, consult with professionals who understand that part, you know, reading documents. Dr. Swabby's book was great for me and some of her stuff, but I think we're in a world where we have to beat the internet to our children.

1:20:02Get ahead of it. Yeah, we have to. How have you dealt with it, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I have two children, so my oldest is 28, my youngest is 16. I think trying to be really human with both of my kids and trying to have really honest relationships with them. reading books, getting advice from different parents, but really from all the lessons I've learned from therapy. Like I think parenting that relationship I have with my kids, I see it as just like, I see it as an opportunity to be, um, to be, um, honest, to be vulnerable with them, to open a door and let, let them know that they can share anything they want with me.

1:20:47And I just, I take it as like a huge responsibility that I want to be present in their lives and I want to show up for them in the most loving way that I can and have a close relationship where they feel they can tell me anything. I'm curious about both of you guys purpose since like the moment you knew you were getting out of jail. First off, can you share what it was like either getting that moment that you knew when you were going to get out and the day you got out? Can you both share that feeling were you scared were you excited was it like confusing what was that like first yeah i can't wait to hear chris i'm always curious like how other guys experience what was it like um yeah well you remember you were there when i got out yeah but what was it like for you i mean maybe it's exciting maybe it's fear i don't know it's like could be a number of things it was it was incredible um coming home you know we we got together the siblings were all at the house they all came back from different places and uh both of our parents brought me in i remember lewis was there and i came in and we ordered a pizza we all cried you know all of our siblings our four siblings we all we made a sign like welcome home yeah and it was what was it like for you just like even just getting out for the first time that's like yeah it was it was uh it was exhilarating it was also um it was a lot of emotions it was a big relief but it was also like and i think I've heard Shaka speak about this.

1:22:13There was a period of years where I've always felt like I was worried about being out of place, as they say, right? And you spoke about this, too. Was that being out of place? So, like, always on tip shows and, like, wondering, are you walking down the street and somebody walks and they come close to you? And if they would have done that in the yard, you're like, that's disrespect. But they're not even thinking about it. There's different rules. and you're so you're like constant like i was constantly triggered when i first got out like i had to stop myself from being like super aggressive because when you're in the yard you learn to carry yourself in a certain way and you stare people down and you like you have to like huff up and be like i had developed certain ways of being and communicating and of carrying myself and uh to try to i couldn't just change that right away you know and so i was really triggered on the street when I first got on the street.

1:23:05But of course I had all these other great emotions too, like obviously, right. You know, like when getting home, feeling that freedom was, was wonderful. And then, um, but you had asked, I think you also asked about what was the vision or what was the purpose? Yeah. What was, did you have a purpose after like, once you knew you were going home, did you have a vision for your life or were you just like, I'm not sure yet. And I'm Assuming having a vision and a purpose is going to support you with not being the 70 % statistic that goes back to jail, I'm assuming. Well, you know, before I got locked up, my purpose was to be a great classical violinist.

1:23:43And while I was locked up, that kind of changed, and I had a vision about becoming a great jazz violinist. For people that don't know the story, you were a classically trained violinist for most of your life, very gifted. But then you went to jail for four and a half years and joined the prison band and learned lots of different type of musical skills with inmates who taught you funk and rap and blues and jazz and hip-hop and soul and R &B and all these different things. You learn jazz in jail, which is pretty fascinating. So his greatest musical teacher, no, he had great musical teachers growing up classically, but to expand creatively, his greatest musical teachers were in jail, which made him the musician he is today and the teacher and the educator today.

1:24:34I fell in love with the music, but I also fell in love with the people that showed me the music and the culture that was behind it and the feeling that I had of being in the room during the church service and making music in these other ways. And it was like an insight into, it's like you're looking at the world through this window and then for years and you turn around and it's like, whoa, this is a whole other thing. Which was, and, you know, it was also Appalachian music too, right? You know, but especially a lot of Black American music and Black American culture. I mean, that was just an eye-opener for me as a kid, you know.

1:25:13And it was different times back then than it is now. But it would be proper to say it was an awakening for me. But that's also a little bit awkward for me to talk about. what because i mean just that whole experience because i'm sensitive to wanting to be uh respectful of what it is and not to be posturing around the whole idea you know what i mean and so but but that's part of why the vision that i had was important to me actually because it's like i want to honor what happened here and so i don't even need to talk about it to honor it i can play music and because the people that can recognize that there's no word that needs to be spoken you know and so i mean before you go on that what we just say to that shaka because i've always encouraged him to speak more about it yeah and maybe i should stop telling him to do that yeah but i think when he speaks about it from the experience of learning this style of music from some of his greatest mentors in prison i feel like he's honoring those men as well while educating the world about those lessons.

1:26:21But again, no one wants to listen to their younger brother. So I don't know what you think. And maybe it's in its own time or maybe it makes sense for him not to do that. No, I almost think there's like almost two different things. There's the musicianship and artistry is what I'm hearing. It's like there's a sacred exchange to have. And there's a protective element around that, if I'm not mistaken. That's kind of what I feel or what I sense And I truly get that. And then I also think about the stories that go untold and that if they are told, it helps so many people. I'm very protective of my mentors who guided me to reading and who guided me to writing.

1:27:05And what I what I knew is that I wanted to honor these men and that I mentioned their name in rooms that they can't even imagine themselves ever being in. Because what it speaks to is the humanity of any of us who have walked those halls, halls of shame and the punitive halls that we existed in. And so I think there's a beauty and a magic to holding on to that sacred. And then I think there's a power and responsibility with how do we articulate that in a way that really helps people see the humanity that art galvanizes in an environment where sometimes and oftentimes it's the only hope that people have.

1:27:54You know, it's the only light that we have is those moments when you do a show with a prison and you see people just like let loose. And the tension goes down and there's no knife fights. And they're just like, oh, I got to see that, you know. And so I think it's a duality there, but all things in their own time. you know and i think playing the music has been i mean i'm so intrigued by your art and so appreciative that i get a chance to bear witness to it and in your journey of how you got to it so i think that's the the power yeah yeah and it's probably it's not that i don't want to appreciate thank you for that first of all and it's not that i don't want to tell the story it's what i want to tell it right yeah you know what i mean like it's because it feels like a like a heavy responsibility to talk about.

1:28:45But actually, I mean, the film that we're putting out, I think does do it justice because we tell it through poetry and we've put like so much work into it. And that's why. And, and, and maybe if I were to write a book or, you know, you know, the question you asked about, you know, anticipating getting out and, and the purpose part, right. So I, you know, I started writing in solitary confinement and initially I was writing to save my own life. I call it my write or die moment. And I was journaling and I realized I had never accomplished anything. And so - Never finished anything. Never finished anything, right?

1:29:24And so the idea was like, just finish one thing. And if you finish one thing, you can turn your life around. That just happened to be a book. And then I was like, okay, well now, what do I want to do with this book, right? What do I want to do with my writing? And that's when I started to write down the most absurdly ambitious audacious goals ever i want to be a best-selling author i want to meet oprah like i would i would just write it down no matter how wild it sounded right um and and then i fell into about a depression you know we talked earlier about being depressed in prison so the prison itself is depressing yeah but there's another level of depression you can get to where you just don't you can't even get off the bunk you know you're just like i just want to give up i I don't want to be in this anymore.

1:30:10And it was because I realized I had this gift all around. And I couldn't give birth to it. Oh, what was the gift that you couldn't give birth to? Writing. I had wrote those letters. And my family would be like, write me more letters. They're so detailed. I'm not thinking of myself as a writer. You know, Tom asked me, what else could I do with my mind? I'm just writing prison articles. I'm not thinking I can become a real writer. And so, but once I went through that depression, which was probably about a year, I wrote, I wrote two books, started a third, fell into depression, couldn't finish it.

1:30:45And then eventually I got on the other side of it. I went back to my books, you know, as a man, think of the secret, all these different books. I would go back and read them. And, you know, Nelson Mandela's, you know, long road to freedom. I would just go back and read these books and read them, trying to get my brain to move forward. And then eventually I was like, okay, finish the third book, finish the fourth book. Started a publishing company in prison the same year I went up for parole, which was 2008. Published my first book from prison, got sued by the prison, got denied parole, went back up 2009, got denied parole again.

1:31:23And I almost gave up. You know, at that point I had 17 years in, I knew how to do time. No, actually I had 18 years and I knew how to do time. And I almost gave up. And then I went back and how I felt when I got the news that I was getting out. I'll never forget. I came in the unit. This officer, she was joking with me. She was like, hey, I got something big to tell you. Me and her had kind of a flirty relationship. So I'm like, I don't know what it is. She was like, meet me down at the cubicle. Went down to the cubicle. She was like, they're letting you go home. Wow. And I was just like, whoa.

1:32:01own and so i went around to the concert i wanted to ask the concert but i didn't want to kind of you know reveal that she had already told me so i go in i'm asking the concert some random stuff hey can you check my account and she was like oh actually you're you're leaving you'll be transferring in a couple of weeks you're going to detroit for the re-entry program you're going home wow now it's like yo this is crazy so this is real this is real so i go back around to the cubicle. Yard opens up. My brother-in-law was there and a friend from our neighborhood. They were both there serving time. I went out and walking and talking to Yard.

1:32:35I'm like, yo, I think I'm going home. They said it. I don't got the paperwork yet though. And so we walk and talk and, you know, they're excited for me. I'm excited, you know, and come back in. And when they passed out mail call, they gave me the paper. They was like, you're going home June 22nd, 2010. Wow. One day after my 38th birthday. Wow. And so I literally called my dad. My dad answered the phone. And I was like, dad, I got my parole. And my dad let out a guttural cry, a rejoice that he had held pent up for 19 years. And it was like, holy smokes, you know? and so I knew when I got out my plan was I'm gonna get out I'm gonna hustle these books out of the trunk of the car get out I'm gonna just sell these novels and eventually I'll make it and so I get parole they take me from the prison to the parole office I get to the parole office and I'm inside and I literally asked the lady hey can I go outside really and she was like what are you talking about like you're free you go where you want to go wow and i was like yo i'm still asking permission so oh i get there and i'm outside and uh my son's mom comes to you know pick me up at the time and she has the books with her and i sold my first book in the parking lot i still have it's the funniest picture ever i got on these big baggy shorts that were probably from the 90s an oversized t-shirt and i sold that first book 15 years ago i've been selling books ever since um and so when i when i came home that's what i i thought that was my purpose was just to sell these novels and i ended up writing writing my wrongs after prison and that book skyrocketed but i wrote it for that reason where i would go and do these talks and people would say you don't sound like someone's been in prison and they meant it as a compliment.

1:34:43Yeah. But I was like, I just left some of the most brilliant scholars, some of the greatest legal minds, some of the greatest writers, thinkers, comedians, you name it. Those were the men I served time with. That's what inspired me to write, right in my wrongs. I wanted people to understand that whatever landed us there was not the defining part of who we all are. We're still humans. were dreamers, builders, doers, were all these things. And to tell that story. And so once that happened, that book came out, people would come up with me and they would just tell me all type of stories. And in the last couple of years, I've really been questioning what has been my purpose all along.

1:35:27I thought it was to sell novels. I haven't done a novel deal yet. You know, I thought it was prison re-entry. that's really not what that was about for me that was about my friends are incarcerated what i realized is that my purpose in life is to help people find the door to their own personal freedom like that's what i know with certainty there's like there's a lot of things that i don't know um and there's a few things that i know with certainty and one of them is I am searching what I'm here to do in the world. And that can be expressed through different avenues. Absolutely. Through books or through work or through speaking or all those different things.

1:36:10Yeah. That's interesting that you got clear with that purpose. And I think we're going back to depression, talking about how depressing prison is. Yeah. But I think most people are living in depression in their own prison. And I think a lot of people are depressed because they are discounting themselves or doing a disservice from actually expressing their truest gifts. Absolutely. And finding their purpose. And they know, like you said, you knew there was more inside of you, but you weren't doing it. You weren't accomplishing things. You weren't finishing things. Yeah. And that depression like captured you.

1:36:40Oh, absolutely. I think a lot of people are depressed because they know they're doing a disservice to what they truly want to be doing in the world. Yeah. And so, the purpose side of things, how do you go? I mean, both of you have a purpose now. It's so funny you say that you have so many synchronicities and similarities because. Absolutely. I have vivid memories of Chris after he got out of prison. He made his first album. I think it was a CD called Ten Yard. I think it was your first one, right? It was your first album? No, it was the second one. The second one. I mean, you have, what, almost 20 albums, 19 albums.

1:37:12But his second album was called Ten Yard, one of his experiences in the yard. And I remember him doing these little bar, restaurant, clubs right afterwards and taking his CDs and just handing them to people and selling them one by one. you sold books one by one. You were both expressing your art after jail and doing it one by one, trying to make a difference and an impact. And today, both of you, you know, Chris has taught over a thousand schools, teaching music education, expressing yourself through music. He has a camp called the Creative Strings Workshop. It's a yearly camp that brings musicians in from around the world to express themselves creatively.

1:37:53You do this through speaking, through writing, through workshops, through all these different things. So you guys are both doing your purpose in a beautiful way, and I'm grateful for that. But a lot of people, I feel like, don't even know what their purpose is, or even if they do know it, they discount themselves from actually pursuing it. They live in fear, and that's a prison of itself in my mind. Absolutely. And I think that's what, you know, if people take nothing else from this conversation, what I would hope they would take from it is life as a metaphor. We've done the hard work for the audience.

1:38:32And we were physically incarcerated, and yet we found a freedom through artistic expression, through meditation, mindfulness, community, all the things that we've talked about. Yes. Those are things that are replicable and can be easily modeled in any facet of life. You know, so if there's something that you feel is holding you back, you have to, one, you just have to, you have to call that thing what it is. And then you get a chance to decide what are you going to do about it? You know, and that's the beauty of like, you know, where we started from, we're not supposed to be sitting here based on the statistics.

1:39:08You know, we're sitting here because we made choices in spite of, you know, we made the hard, the harder choices to try to figure out how to do your purpose. is when you're not getting the big checks. You know, you're selling two books and two CDs and, you know, three people are showing up to your show and you got to perform like it's 3 ,000 or, you know, two people show up to your book signing and yet you got to keep making just one step after the next. And for me, it's like you count all those victories and you accrue enough of them and you'll see life really, you know, it's just like training, right?

1:39:47It's like you lift, you start to get stronger, and you're like, oh, okay, I'm getting some action. But you got to be consistent to get the strength that you desire. So, yeah, life is metaphor. I want you guys, I'm going to have you guys, Chris is going to play a song, and you're going to read a poem here in a second. Before we do that, I want people to know more about your book. It's called How to Be Free. Again, if you want to be free in your life, this is the book for you, A Proving Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons. So make sure you guys check out this book that breaks down a lot of the different strategies on how to create personal freedom from the strategies and techniques that you've talked about as well.

1:40:24Chris has a movie called Redemption Time. And you can go to redemptiontimeshow.com. It's touring throughout the U.S. this year and next year. And people can learn about it by going there and checking it out. But it's a 70-minute performance film featuring poet Jimmy Santiago Baca, who was Chris's poetry mentor that you found his poetry in jail that really gave you some personal freedom. Along with Christian Howe's jazz violinist and two were formerly incarcerated artists who transformed their lives through creativity. And through poetry, jazz, and their own stories, they reveal the trauma of incarceration and the redemption power of art.

1:41:07something you talked about is the importance of art and mentors in everyone's life. Absolutely. By having a place to experience art and express art and having a place to find mentors and connect with mentors is a powerful thing. I think this conversation, you two are powerful mentors for anyone watching and listening right now. Absolutely. And if anyone's struggling in isolation, I highly encourage you reach out to a boys and girls club if you're a teen, reach out to local mentors if you're an adult. seek mentors online read books, watch movies that support your critical thinking but find mentors and express your art and I've got a couple final questions at the end but I want you guys to Chris has got a song that he wrote that's in this film so I want people to hear this Shaka is going to read a poem that you've never read before this is a first time experience of you guys performing together okay so this is a It's part of the movie.

1:42:05It's a poem written by Jimmy Santiago Baca, and I wrote the music to go behind a lot of his poetry in our film, which is called Redemption Time. And this is like the redemptive moment at the end where Jimmy gets out. So the film has like 10 to 12 different episodes or 70 minutes, and each one of them address different themes of manhood, trauma, and all these kinds of things. But this is like the redemptive moment. Okay. I thought it would be cool to have Shaka read the poem and try to do my best to kind of truly on it. Thank you. I'll try to render it here with just the film.

1:43:10When I came out of prison, I didn't have a plan to go back to crime. I came out of prison with one gift, and I'm about to tell you what that gift is. Not a gun, not a criminal, but a gift. I'm offering this poem I'm offering this poem to you since I have nothing else to give keep it like a warm coat when the winter comes to cover you or like a pair of thick socks that cannot fight through I love you I got nothing else to give you so it's a pot full of yellow corn to warm your belly in the winter. It's a scarf to wrap up around your head on windy days. I love you. Keep it. Treasure this as you would if you were lost.

1:44:15Lean direction in the wilderness that life becomes when you're mature. Tucked away like a cabin in the trees, you come knocking. I'm going to answer you. I'll give you directions. I'll let you warm yourself by this fire. I'll let you rest by this fire. I'll make you feel safe because I love you. And this is all I got to give. I ain't got nothing else. And all anyone needs to live and to go on living inside when the world outside no longer cares if you live or die, Remember, remember, remember, I love you. I love you. I love you.

1:45:55Oh, yeah. Yeah. My brother. So good, man. So good. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks to Jimmy Santiago Baca for that. Man, big shout out to Jimmy, this incredible writing and such a gift. Wow. And I love you. Wow. I love you, man. This has been, wow. Like, so cool to meet you today, man. What a trip. Man, likewise, brother. It was good. What opened up for both of you while playing that with each other? Man. After this conversation and after, you know, what you've talked about in your book and what you've gone through for 10 years in your movie, what opened up for both of you during that moment?

1:46:33Oh, man, this is my brother. This is my brother, man. And we're super proud of you and what you're doing in the world and honored to know that our stories are, you know, trusted, you know, and your art is, you know, giving birth to new listeners that will hear our stories. and, you know, they'll help a lot of people. So I feel this true kindred spirit and brotherhood. You know, we've been through something that most people can't comprehend, but we both know that language, both spoken and unspoken. And so to be able to share this moment with you, man, is enriching my life. So thank you, my brother.

1:47:15Wow. That's powerful. Thank you. Beautiful, man. what opened up for you Chris what was during playing that playing it? and hearing Chaka and just doing this experience together it felt great it brings me back to what you were talking about because when you're in jail you make do and I was like I'm not going to let any of that stuff I got the violin we're just going to make this happen one take first time it was great it was powerful I can feel it I can feel it. Wow. That's cool. That's cool. But also, yeah, I mean, really getting to meet you. And I've listened to a bunch of your stuff and heard you talk.

1:47:57But getting to speak to you and be with you in the room, it feels like a homecoming for me. It gives me a lot of openings in my heart about how I can lean heavier into telling my own story. Because I think you do it so well. Thank you. And so it feels like a great encouragement for me. and not only to share my story, but to step into more community with more folks that are doing this work and just to lean into it more, the fullest expression of who I am, getting clearer on whatever that purpose is and how I can show it. So thank you, brother, for opening it up for me. Of course. I've been wanting both of you guys to connect for a while.

1:48:40I've been telling you guys about each other for a while. I'm curious. You both gave a piece of advice to your younger self at 19 if you could i wonder if you could both give one piece of advice to what you see in another what do you see in chris that you see he should keep continuing to do or encouragement or yeah yeah i would say my my um my my words of wisdom and and take them as you as you may um you have such an incredible, powerful gift and coupling that gift with a unbelievable story of reimagining a life for yourself. Like there's power in that. There's power in it, not just for you, but for others.

1:49:24And you get a chance to really help other people salvage their lives, reimagine their lives and think about those who are brothers and sisters who we've left behind and knowing that they're counting on us and looking forward to us being able to tell their stories and the telling of our own stories. And so what I would what I would encourage is is to really embrace it, you know, embrace the power of your own story to help others and to make sure in the doing of that, just create space for yourself to breathe and to, you know, reach out and just, you know, even if it's after talk and say, hey, bro, I just got off the stage.

1:50:06I just need an ear. I'm here to be able to hold space for you. And there's many others who would be honored to hold space for you. And then I just encourage you to keep imagining different ways to tell that story and to tell the many stories. And obviously, you know, we'll collab on some stuff. But I would just say lean into it, you know, like you you've earned it. you've earned the right to tell the story. You've got the stripes, you know, you got the wounds, you got the things. And so now there's an opportunity to, you know, relieve some of that by helping others never have to endure it. And so that's the power that you hold in your hand and your violin and your story, your voice.

1:50:51And lastly, I would just say, lean on the wisdom of your younger brother. he really has not got here without a dedication to an incredible craft he's built something that's you know monumental uh historical and and his his leadership is proven he has a proven track record and you know there's power and leaning into the little brother who's willing to help you and support you when you're trying it's a gift yeah thanks thank you i think a lot of men are going to see you as somebody who represents strength and to show that you get to be able to define manhood for generations of men, right? And I think that you do, I think you, I think you do a great job of that.

1:51:44I think you come across as being very naturally who you are. And I think that who you are is very, uh, multidimensional and it's warm and it's soulful and it's empathic and compassionate and also strong. I think giving men in explicit terms, talking about these things, talking about fear, talking about shame, talking about guilt, talking about how do you, you know, respond to the urge to be violent, you know, and kind of this, these, this, if we say the warped definition of what it is to be a man you know how how does a man on the street going to deal with um um if they're disrespected how are they going to um address that without putting themselves into a self-destructive cycle without destroying themselves really throughout throwing away their own life you know how can how come how can i think that you already are doing that i think you're already speaking to men from that and i already see all that in you and hear it in your stories but i just want to reflect that back to you and for you to know that that's how you're received and in case that makes you want to lean into any of those themes in explicit ways and you might want to ask people that question your audience whoever you you want to speak to and whoever you want to hear your message you might want to ask them what are you looking for for me What are the answers you want me to answer?

1:53:13Because I know you get a lot of inspiration from these books. So I'm already thinking about what's your next book. Maybe some of those answers to what you're going to write about is going to come from people in your audience. The advice that both of you guys are giving or what you see in each other is what I want the audience also to know that they should be listening for themselves. Absolutely. Because what you guys are speaking to each other, I'm assuming everyone listening or watching has some type of insecurity or doubt or hidden prison that's holding them back from pursuing their greatest version of themselves, their gifts, their potential.

1:53:48And there's an unlock for everyone watching, listening, including all three of us. Absolutely. To our next level of greatness. Yeah. Which you talked about. and so to wrap things up I'd love for you both to share your three lessons you would leave with the world get to imagine, get to live as long as you want to live from this moment until the last day and if you could share three lessons three truths to the world simple as they wanted them to be or profound as they wanted them to be what would those three lessons be and maybe you've already shared them so just recap them and what is each one of your definition of greatness as well So three lessons you would leave with the world from your experience and then definition of greatness.

1:54:29I'll let you start. Three lessons. I would say the first lesson is to embrace this magic carpet ride we call life with a spirit of gratitude. I'll be thankful, Lily, for every moment you're in. Good, bad, indifferent. It just makes life so incredible. Show up in service. The second lesson would be show up in service of others. Meet a need that someone has without expectation of anything in return. And the universe will reward you abundantly for your care and consideration. The third thing would be read if you're literate or listen if you're not. to books and stories and journeys of other people.

1:55:28I think that's one of the most magical gifts that we have is access to stories of others who have walked similar, different paths than we've walked. You just learn so much from life through other people's stories. And the third part, what does greatness mean? I mean, greatness to me means that there is an acceptance that inside of us, there is a connective tissue that is rooted in whatever the creative force in the world we imagine it to be, whether it's God or any other entity or way of being. but there's a connectedness that we have that is the power source that allows us to imagine and birth into the world anything that our hearts can dream of and desire that's what greatness is to me like when i think about my journey where i started from where i'm at today is that i lean into this idea that there is a greater power that always wants the best for us.

1:56:39And if we just attach ourselves to that energy, anything is possible. Wow. That's beautiful. Chris, three lessons you would leave behind. What are those for you? Leaning to your relationships and make them as deep as you possibly can, whether it's your, you know, your kids, your parents, your brother, your siblings, your friends, your students, the people that work with you, your colleagues, those relationships are the place where you get to really express yourself fully and feel a lot of connection and a lot of purpose. I would say constantly work to rearticulate your vision or your purpose for your life.

1:57:23If it means every day, you think about what am I committed to? What do I want to stand for? What are the things I want to feel, give, and what are the things I want to contribute? third lesson i'll go with i'll go with uh gratitude as shaka said i'll say if if you can try to look for something to be excited about and to feel that joy like the day that we walked out of prison um then look for it yeah uh my definition of greatness i think that just if if i were to to tie it to um some of the men that i've met uh in prison and what i saw in them as greatness was the ability to to really deeply feel whatever it is that you feel whatever suffering that you feel and whatever fear that you feel whatever anxiety that you feel and still be willing to push through to try to make the best of yourself that you can.

1:58:26I think that's a representation of greatness. Nice. Well, for everyone watching and listening, I hope this gave them a sense of peace and hopefully a path towards freedom. And hopefully it gave both of you another connecting element of telling your stories to feel more free, for more alive. And know that both of you are doing your doing an amazing job of being of service to people watching and listening so i acknowledge you both thank you guys both for being thank you so much for having us i hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

1:59:19Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.