The Real Root of ADHD Isn't Trauma, It's This | Dr. Sasha Hamdani

22:09Now, you look at one end of the spectrum and it's apathy where you're having an emotional trigger and you don't really elevate up or down. It's just meh, numb. You're there. Polar other opposite end of the spectrum, which is kind of where I live, is where you feel things deeply and quickly and for a long time. and it's truly because of a difference in neurological wiring. And I would put RSD on that side of the spectrum. Rejection-sensitive dysphoria.

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25:11Lewis Howes:Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend$250 and get a$250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash Lewis. Terms apply. So if you feel things deeply and intensely, for long periods of time, whether it is a seemingly horrible event that occurred to you or a friend or someone you know, and you feel deeply around that experience, or maybe it wasn't that horrible perceived of an event, but you still feel deeply for something that's smaller. Yeah. What does that say about you? I think that says that you're highly emotionally sensitive. Yes. And I don't necessarily think that's, I mean, I want to make sure that that's not being put with a good or bad label, right?

25:54It just is what it is. It's just you're wired. Like there are some people that process emotion more intensely. And so if that's how you feel really deeply, really quickly, really intensely, and it lingers for a long time, you're one of those people that probably does interpret emotion differently, process emotion differently. And there's a different set of skills that you use for that.

26:16Lewis Howes:Yes. I feel like I grew up like that. Yeah. Yeah. feeling deeply around lots of things. Did you get called sensitive a lot? No, maybe emotional, but I would like, I was, yeah, I just felt very deeply and I would go into like an emotional cave at times, you know? And either by myself or around other people. It's interesting. I had to learn tools as an adult on how to, like, I still feel very deeply, but I've had to, I don't know if it's a psychological tool or an emotional tool or what it is, spiritual tool on how to feel it, not bypass the feeling, but also not let the feeling take over my life so that I can actually keep moving forward and focusing on, focusing out rather than focusing inward constantly.

27:12So that's kind of the entire gist of this is I wanted to make sure that people understand it's not about making you less sensitive. It's giving you more control. So for people who do feel things really deeply, I feel like being able to utilize those skills, and it's all stuff you've heard about. It's all stuff you know, but knowing when to apply it, how to apply it, that's really going to help you. And I think with this book, the way it's broken up is the first part is the neuroscience of truly, if you're neurologically wired to process emotion differently. Then it goes into where you fall on that spectrum.

27:48Then it goes into the tools. And then the last part of the book is just all real world examples where then it breaks down, like, this is what's happening in the brain. This is the skill you use. Let's practice it. Because I think going through, if you are able to do that while you're not in this dysregulated state, you're going to be able to kind of learn and build. And then when you need it, it's there. You kind of learned and experienced and you've practiced it in lower stake moments. So I think that's the key of kind of moving more into that emotionally resilient spot.

28:19Lewis Howes:Yes. If someone feels like their brain is working against them and they feel like they just can't get a hold of their thoughts and their brain is kind of working against them, what do you think is actually going on inside of them if they feel like they cannot get a control on their brain? You have to give me more information. Do you mean like they feel like their emotions are out of control? Yeah. I think a lot of times, like if you go back and you actually think about the neuroanatomy of what's at play, there are two big, big things that we talk about. Number one is the amygdala. And that is that emotional threat detector in the body and the brain.

28:58And the second part is your frontal lobe, that prefrontal cortex directly under your forehead. Smartest part of the brain. Judgment, decision making, processing. that's all that frontal lobe functioning. When you're dealing with someone who's highly emotionally sensitive, that amygdala, hyper responsive. So now it's like taking emotional data, processing it, and it's dumping alarm chemicals. Like I am in danger. Something's happening. This is going on. This is real. And so you, and you kind of described this with this hyper vigilance, you know, you're on lookout for this is happening. This is dangerous.

29:33So this the mectal is spinning, dumping alarm chemicals. Then that frontal lobe, under-responsive. So when you need that guy most, where is he? He's not processing or overriding this. And the connection between the two is weak. So basically, your emotions are going to outweigh that logical part of your brain almost every time, unless you have those skills. Gosh.

29:54Lewis Howes:This is where, you know, I've probably made too many mistakes in my past, letting my emotions get the best of me in the heat of the moment, right? And you react, you say something, you're like, I shouldn't have said that. Oh my God. I have, I have many examples. Many of those moments, right? Many examples. You spent years thinking something was wrong with you before you had a diagnosis, correct? Yeah. So what changed once you understood what was really happening? I don't even think it was about the diagnosis because my diagnostic story was a little bit weird in that I was diagnosed in fourth grade, did well, didn't bother me, didn't really know that I was on ADHD medication, which was weird.

30:33Lewis Howes:No way. Yeah. Your parents just gave it to you without you knowing? Yeah, just thought it was a vitamin. How do you feel about that? Well, not even... Okay, so what... You feel tricked or lied to? So they were like, this is going to help you focus. Okay. Okay? So I... But I never had that sit-down conversation of like, this is ADHD. This is what you're taking. This is a drug. This is chemically changing your brain every time you take it. Now, keep in mind, this was... I'm not going to like it was a long time ago. This was very on girls getting diagnosed with ADHD. It was basically unheard of. I was in a school where, you know, number one, I was like the only ethnicity.

31:15So I already felt really othered. And I was like from one of the accepted you wanted to be.

31:22Lewis Howes:Yeah. And from the get go, I knew I was very emotionally sensitive and so did my parents. so i think they fumbled the bag on that one like they could have handled that better but now being right but being a parent i understand that this is where it came from and i think that they more than made up for that because then when i i go through school i do pretty well get into medical school and in medical school i go through like it was like the first two weeks and i was like did I have a stroke? What is wrong with me? Like, why are things... Stroke? Yeah, I just felt like... In medical school? No, I didn't actually.

32:00But I was like, things have gone from the top of my class to the bottom of my class. What happened? My parents were like, are you taking your vitamin? And I was like, I don't know where that is. And they're like, okay, well, it's actually ADHD medicated.

32:14Lewis Howes:Oh my gosh. And so then, yeah, I felt extremely betrayed. I felt very angry. And you You know, this is coming from parents who well-educated, like the most attentive, loving parents. And I just, I was so angry. So angry. I can imagine. And then I was like, fine, I will show you. Like I knew kids who had ADHD when I was growing up and they weren't me. They're like kids who are, you know, doing crazy stuff and getting in trouble. And that is not me. So I tried and I tried and I was watching. All my peers whizzed past me. And I got into a spot where I studied so hard for an exam. So hard. I knew this neuroanatomy of the brain inside out.

33:05Like even right now, if you were to show me, I'd be like, this is it. I know it all. I go in for this test. I do this test, hand it in before anyone else, out the door. I'm like, that was perfect. I'm going to shove it in everyone's face. This could be great. we go and this is i don't know if you had this did they ever like post grades oh yeah thing yeah not online this is just like on a sheet so we're all like huddled around yeah the next day looking and i was like oh my god somebody got a 32 and i was like oh god it's me no way so i'm looking at my id number and i was like like i got a hundred there's no way this must be an error i go i forgot to flip over the sheet oh you left the whole thing blank

33:47Lewis Howes:Like, so you would have gotten 100 % had you flipped it over probably. I was crying. I went to the instructor and I was like, just give it to me orally. I'll do it right now. I'll show you I know it. And he's like, you need to learn from this. And I was like, I will learn nothing from this. And so then I was like, that's what kind of was like, this is a tipping point. And then my dad was like, just come home. Let's learn about your brain. And if it's ADHD, we'll figure out what to do. If it's not, we'll figure out something else to do. so we went home like just did this whole library excursion we were sitting on the floor reading articles and like learn everything and by the end of it i was like this is for sure me and this is what we kind of made a plan and started working on both like the behavioral side and the medication side and trying to figure out a good path forward from there i forgot what the actual question was I mean, you learning about your parents, you know, kind of lying to you, I guess, about the vitamin being medication and you being upset.

34:53Lewis Howes:And then you realizing, OK, this is I'm going to prove them wrong and realizing that the test. I did not prove them wrong. That could have been one off, though, because you were you proved that you knew the information. You studied hard and you had the answer. I got a Serpix score in the first half. Yeah. So it's I mean, in some ways you did prove them wrong. But yeah, you forgot to flip the page. So, yeah, I think it's it was just an interesting kind of trajectory. I think they they really. Handled it beautifully, like if in in that moment, like going back and being able to, you know, my dad in particular, he was an engineer and he just, you know, was like my second brain.

35:38He was just trying to help me. And he was like, well, let's look at let's look at the data. Let's look at how you answered these questions. Where was the problem? And really, like, without his help, I wouldn't have gotten through medical school because I was learning so much about my brain and learning about how I learned and how I handled things. And I think part of that diagnostic thing is ADHD aside. I remember where the question was going. ADHD aside. The emotional regulation, I figured out much, much later. And it wasn't until my dad died.

36:10Lewis Howes:That's when you figured out emotional regulation. That's when I figured out for the first time. So my dad died in 2024. Relatively quick. Like he had been sick for a while with an underlying lung condition, but had been stable. And then he, we found out he had a spot, like lung cancer. Stage one, they were like, don't worry about it. Like it's not that big of a deal. He does radiation, does chemo. And then he called me and he was like, something's wrong. So I fly from Kansas City to him. I like he looked terrible. I was took him in the hospital. I was like, do something, do a PET scan. We need it.

36:46And they're like, it's too early. I'm like, just do one. I don't care. Like, let's just figure out what's happening here. It was everywhere. Ever. And he died 13 days later.

36:57Lewis Howes:No way. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And so at that point, I think just like the whiplash of all of that and just how heavily emotional it was, that was the first time, Louis, that I was like, my emotional status directly impacts my functional status. If I am emotional and emotionally overwhelmed, I can't do these things. So I was like, and I had seen that before with like breakups and other things like that, where things happened, but I didn't tie those two things together. Because like, if it's overwhelmed because I have tons on my plate. I will delegate. I will hack my way around. I will figure out a skill, but I can't delegate the emotional side.

37:40And so that's when I figured out that connection. And that's when I started writing them.

37:44Lewis Howes:Wow. Yeah. For me, it was the emotional side of things would take over my life when I would feel too deeply or of the range of emotions, guilt, loss, shame, anger, whatever the emotion was, sadness. But deep. Deep. It would suffocate me. It would engulf my life. And I couldn't turn it off if I was at the office or if I was, you know, I would literally just kind of just stay home by myself. Because I didn't know how to emotionally navigate those things, those feelings for a long time. And it would, yeah, it would suffocate me. My whole life would be suffocated by emotions. And that's when I became kind of not obsessed, but really all in on like, okay, why?

38:28Lewis Howes:Why is this happening? And that's where I asked you in the beginning, like learning how to heal traumatic memories that cause the emotional avalanche to take over my life. Once I learned emotional regulation and healing traumatic memories that were triggering the emotions, that were causing the hypervigilance because of an emotion tied to a memory that I had yet to heal. An open wound from the past that when you poked it, boom, my whole nervous system would just be in pain. And the bigger the trigger or the bigger the perceived abuse or perceived abandonment or whatever the wound was, the perception of whether it was real or not perceived, I didn't know how to navigate it.

39:20Lewis Howes:And so that's why I was asking in the beginning, like when we learn, I think the ability to navigate our emotions and we can use a lot of the skills you talk about in your book. Um, we can come back to the present. We can hopefully learn to integrate the healing journey. We can hopefully have a moment to refocus our energy on what's at hand, whether it being present with someone, whether it being our job, whether being, whatever, things we need to do, instead of being engulfed in the feelings, consuming us and constantly ruminating on the event that happened that caused this feeling. And I think when we can learn those emotion regulation skills, like you talk about here, it doesn't mean bad things aren't going to happen that we need to face, like the loss of your father.

40:15It's going to be overwhelming. Yeah.

40:18Lewis Howes:But hopefully it doesn't take years of your life away from you living in the present now. And that's what it's felt like in the past. Like when you get that hit with something so emotionally, it does take away years of your life. This is what you go to sleep thinking about. This is what you wake up thinking about. It consumes you. And when you're right in the throw of it, you're just like, this will never end. I'm going to feel this way forever. Yeah. It just takes up so much mental space, emotional space, having to deal with that. And for people who do feel deeply, they feel it more. Really deep.

40:55Lewis Howes:More. They feel it more. I mean, it seems like women often get told that they have anxiety or depression for years before someone checks that it's potentially ADHD or something else. Why do you think that happens to women specifically? Oh, my God. I think, like, if you're talking about ADHD specifically, and these are women who have been misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression, you go back and one big thing is that the diagnostic criteria, it's not built to capture women. So it's not built to capture, it's built on hyper young boys. It's not capturing adult females. Like, you're not really getting that presentation.

41:32The second thing that I think is a big factor in this is just the hormonal component. So hormonally, when your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And dopamine is that great regulator that kind of helps everything with mood and alertness. And so when you have that drop in dopamine, your ADHD symptoms get worse. Problem is, is that so does mood. So do all these other things. And so you're being told, it's hormonal. This is postpartum. It's not that big of a deal. You'll get through it. Or you get treated for anxiety. You get treated for depression. When really, it's a secondary ADHD that's complicating things as well.

42:08Third thing is that I feel like women, from just like a societal perspective, it's unacceptable for them to be rambunctious or, you know, interrupting things or, you know, get up and move around. A lot of times they learn from an early age they have to mask their symptoms. And so as time goes by, they get better and better at doing that. It's not that the symptoms go away. It's not that the symptoms aren't impacting them. they're just really good at compensating and getting past it and blending into society better all while taking that on as a huge toll on themselves and so now you get you know 10 15 20 years down the line and these women are like okay enough's enough let's go and get diagnosed and then the doctor's like you would have known if you had it before that you're doing too well And so it's just, it's a system that wasn't built for women.

43:06Lewis Howes:Interesting.

43:31Lewis Howes:you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. At work, greatness sometimes starts with a pile of meeting notes here, follow-up questions there. But that's okay because ChatGPT Work, a new way to work in ChatGPT, can organize multi-step projects and help you make progress while staying in control. ChatGPT Work can use your apps, connected tools, and files to create things like landing pages, trackers, internal tools, even web apps. Say your team has a new product concept. Use ChatGPT Work to review customer feedback, pull themes, and draft a prototype. Maybe there's a planning doc that ChatGPT Work can organize into owners' next steps and a shareable status update.

44:18Lewis Howes:Make it even more specialized by installing specific plugins like Google Drive, or Microsoft Teams. The big picture? ChatGPT work helps you get unstuck between thinking about your work and actually making progress on it. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We've talked about BetterHelp on this podcast for a long time because taking care of your mind is just as important as taking care of every other part of your life. You've heard about therapy with BetterHelp, but do you know how much people love it when they actually use it?

45:04Lewis Howes:See for yourself. Check out amazing customer reviews updated every day at betterhelp.com slash reviews. You'll find hundreds of people sharing how much BetterHelp has helped them. What stands out to me is how consistently people talk about their experience. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5, based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. It's no wonder more than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. If you've been thinking about therapy but haven't known where to start, BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. Just answer a few questions and get matched with a therapist.

45:44Lewis Howes:And you can feel confident knowing BetterHelp therapists have at least three gears and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com slash greatness. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash greatness. Do you think just modern society life is causing a lot of anxiety, depression, and ADHD versus, I don't know, living on a farm and working hard with your family unit back in the day or something like that? Like, is it just modern society is causing so much overwhelm of the brain and the emotions to be able to navigate all that's happening?

46:28I think right now it's hard. We're living in a really hard world. It's hard every which way you look at it, which is why I think discussions about emotional regulation are especially important right now. But I think, like, does this increasingly, like, digital overwhelming world does that cause ADHD? No. Does it worsen ADHD? For sure. So I think there is an exacerbation of all of these things just because we're living in this extremely chaotic timeline with so many things happening. So many, like I have an eight-year-old girl and she sees me on my phone and she was talking about like, I want a phone too.

47:14And I was like, no, never. And she's like, well why that's not fair why do you have a phone i was like there's literally nothing good that lives in my phone i want to throw it into the sun like i like the phone i feel like that's where i've fed it like a lot of times social media is so dark and difficult and like it just it wears on you just

47:37Lewis Howes:being a human right now yeah from a psychiatrist so just modern society is hard in general like everything's happening yeah i kind of feel blessed that i didn't get a phone until i was like 17 or 18 so i kind of missed that window of being on screens really i guess i played like maybe a little bit of like video games like maybe but i was more super into them i think i mean i was more into like we wouldn't we didn't have enough money to have a nintendo until years later but i would like go to the arcade oh yeah and like it was like a set amount of time and i didn't have enough money to be there for hours.

48:12Lewis Howes:So like how many quarters do you have? But I was more in the sports world where it was just like after school, I'm playing in the playground, I'm doing sports activities. So I was always out playing. And then I come home at night, have dinner. And it was like, maybe later I had like a little bit of time, but I wasn't really interested in playing video games when I was older because I wanted to get better at sports. So I kind of missed that window of being a kid in this generation where you got phones early or your parents had phone and you're playing the games with them or iPads. I kind of miss that.

48:43But as a parent of two, you know, twin girls right

48:48Lewis Howes:now, what advice would you have for me around iPads, iPhones, screen time, cartoons, movies for my kids or any parents for their kids if they want to have healthy young kids that have fewer chances of getting anxiety, depression, and ADHD. So I don't think screens are going to cause ADHD. I think they could worsen an underlying ADHD for sure. And screens do fragment focus. So in that early developmental period from zero to two, that's really when you're still so neuroplastic. You're learning things, even though you're not up and about doing all those things, you're learning kind of the flow of the world.

49:36You're learning how to encapsulate attention. You're building all of that gray and white matter and trying to figure out what your brain is doing, how it's going to be wired, right? So I am never going to be the person who's like absolutely – my mom is that person. My mom's a pediatrician. And she is like, don't do screens. And I was like, I literally grew up on TV.

50:00Lewis Howes:Sitting in front of the TV. Sitting in front, like this far away from the TV. Yeah. And so I was, you know, I know that for a lot of parents, screen time is truly a tool so that the parent or his or herself can take a break. A piece. Yeah. And have an hour to themselves. Yeah. Can make dinner, can do the laundry, can just go to the bathroom. Yes. Totally. So I don't think, like, if you have an excessive amount of, like, guilt and shame about stuff like that, I don't, like, it's all about moderation. to me i think if there is a way that you are able to minimize screen time use more like integrated play and and movement and other interactions that are screen free your kid is more likely to kind of grow up and mean that less so i but if you still have screens and i will tell you my kids had screens um not of their own but like they were exposed to it at different points in their lives and there are still times where i'm like okay i need to finish this last patient and if if i if you guys are around and i'm trying to play with you there's no way i can do that here's a show it's 26 minutes long yeah you know i so i think it's it's all about moderation If someone is, you know, they don't have ADHD, they don't have anxiety and depression, but they are just feeling overwhelmed a lot.

51:34Lewis Howes:And they feel like they don't know how to reclaim their thoughts, their emotions, but they're not diagnosed with one of these things. Yeah. What's an emotional tool that you talk about that people could use if they're just feeling like life is so hard right now. So hard. I'm overwhelmed. I'm overworked. I'm feeling stressed. I can't reclaim my focus. Like what's an emotional tool they can use right now to help them? So I, again, a lot of the tools in this book are stuff that you've heard about or probably I've been told, like, for example, anytime I was in this like spirals of overwhelm or things like that, take a deep breath.

52:14And I'm like, I like, get out of here with that. I don't want to hear that from you. But if I arrived to that conclusion myself, I somehow think it's like the greatest breakthrough of all time. But I think one of the best things is the way we talk about emotional sensitivity and dysregulation and overwhelm is also understanding that it can present very differently. Like there are times where I feel very overwhelmed and my initial impulse is to be a recluse and to withdraw and be quiet and go do that. then there are times where I'm emotionally overwhelmed and I am pacing and I'm like talking out loud and I'm like trying my best to kind of work through it if I am in a spot where I'm like by myself and withdrawn I probably do have the capacity where I could be like okay let me take a deep breath let me do this because I'm already kind of on the quiet side and I'm by myself and I'm I can I may be more likely to do that if I'm pacing around telling me to slow down and take a deep breath feels so much harder.

53:15So that time when my nervous system is literally on fire, I lean into it. Like I need to use movement. I need to somehow push that oxygenated glucose into my frontal lobe so I can think my way out of this. So this is like, I'll give you an example. Being on this press tour and for this book, it's just, first of all, writing a book about rejection than being on a press tour, it there out of 10 would not recommend but um i had you know these podcasts lined up and one of the podcasts pulled out two days before i was supposed to film and i how did it make you feel god like trash so i was just like i am just not a big enough deal and that's why they canceled i they feel like i'm bad for their brand they don't want to talk about emotional sensitivity the book is stupid.

54:08I'm stupid. Like it just, it went from zero to 60 really quickly. And I was sitting on the couch with my husband and I just started getting up. I started pacing around and he's like, okay, something's happening. And then I remembered like, okay, I know what's happening. My amygdala is spinning out of control. I'm dumping alarm chemicals. I need that frontal lobe to kick on, but I, it's hard because I can't think my way out of this. I can't even think about an alternative to what's happening because I'm so convinced this is happening. And so I had seen like a couple of days prior to that, like, you know, someone was talking about like the benefit of doing squats, like for like longevity and like muscle health and brain health.

54:52And I was like, great. So I'm like going from pacing to all of a sudden doing squats in front. And my husband is just like, what are you doing? And so I'm doing squats. And like, it's like less than two minutes. And I'm like, okay, I stop. I sit down again. I reread the email. And this time I'm like, this is the first time that I reread the email. And I saw the words due to a family emergency. Did not even read that the first time. And I was like, okay, that I can, that I can stomach. And then two hours later, I get a thing where they're like, they wanted to float you this different date. And I was like, okay, well, so, I mean, I think it's all about like understanding.

55:35understanding how you present, working with your body instead of fighting against it, and just knowing when to apply the tool.

55:42Lewis Howes:Sure. What's happening in the brain, in simple terms, when someone feels a small moment of rejection as overwhelming pain or anxiety? So I think basically from that fundamental perspective is that emotional threat center of the brain, the amygdala, is very hyper-responsive. It freaks out. It starts sending alarm chemicals to the rest of the body telling you like you are in danger and it's very much this fight or flight response you're in danger something is wrong you need to either get ready to throw hands or you need to get out of here or you need to freeze because those are your options that you have and all while this is going on your frontal lobe is supposed to help you do checks and balances and be like this actually isn't totally accurate you can you can calm it down a little bit but that is under responsive.

56:35So you're not getting that checks and balances. So really you're at the mercy of this emotional cascade slowing down. So unless you have those skills to help that happening, you just got to write it out, which seems very unfair.

56:48Lewis Howes:Yeah, that's tough. Yeah. So you need the skills. You need the tools. You need the tools. What's the most damaging piece of advice people with RSD get from well-meaning friends or family? Oh, my God. Can I tell you when I hate the most? Hopefully I haven't done this. No. And if you have, straight to jail. Yeah, right. Just calm down. It's like, oh, my God, thank you so much. I never thought of that. Like, that doesn't help me at all. And this is with someone has rejection-sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. So if I'm already feeling like my entire brain and body are responding to this rejection or threat or criticism, and I recognize in real time, this is a huge response and it's overwhelming.

57:37Now you're telling me to calm down.

57:39Lewis Howes:Or relax or whatever. Yeah. So what can someone say when they see a friend, a loved one, and their mind looks like they're freaking out over nothing, you know, to the person, it's a big thing that's happening, whether it's perceived or real. Yeah. But in the friend's mind, like, this isn't that big a deal or it's all going to be okay, chill out, relax. What can that friend say or do instead? So this is something my husband does so beautifully. and i think it it was just intuitive for him but maybe it's been it was since drinking also maybe you've trained him but in those like for example when i was pacing around and then just randomly doing squats in front of him he was sitting on one end of the couch i go and sit on the other end of the couch he moves closer to me and he was just like what happened and i you know i think number one he entered it from curiosity it wasn't what's wrong it wasn't that was crazy it was what you know what's what's happening right now i go through this kind of thing that happened from like well i read this and then i started like it just every i i the way i explained it was like everything felt so hot i felt like i was just getting so hot that's how i describe it to my husband and then I just started getting at like and he's like you were pacing around and I like I didn't even realize I was pacing around I knew I got up um definitely knew I was doing squats and then I was like yeah I tried to like kind of calm things down because I was feeling really restless um and then I went back and read the email and I realized it was a family emergency um and so then that neutral kind of I'm just sitting and supporting you letting you regulate your nervous system real time?

59:27Because I think for a lot of people who are dealing with this fear of rejection or criticism, especially if it's in the context of that person that you're receiving it from, if they storm off or if they tell you to calm down, you feel even more unheard. You feel even more rejected. Sometimes him just sitting there, being with me, knowing like I can, it immediately regulates my nervous system.

59:53Lewis Howes:I think it's a powerful thing when someone can do that. And I think it's, in general, I would say it's hard for most men that I've known to learn that skill, to be able to sit peacefully when something is chaotically happening, which seems like nothing happened and you're overreacting, right? This is the seeming situation for a lot of people. And if men haven't learned the skill of emotional regulation themselves, which most men haven't learned that yet. Fair. They can't handle someone else, what seems like a freak out around them. Yeah. If they don't know how to navigate it. So it's hard for them.

1:00:32Lewis Howes:So this is the challenge. Like when, I'm not saying, you know, some men aren't able to do this, but then there's challenges in relationship breakdowns. When a woman doesn't feel seen or heard and the man feels like, well, you're just acting crazy or whatever the terminology is. And that's the challenge. That's why I think when both individuals or all individuals can learn emotional regulation, hopefully it's less heated by one person and the other person has the skills to be able to meet them and see them and hear them and hold that space. But that just takes very present people who are actively trying to improve themselves.

1:01:10I'm going to teach it in the schools. Like, give me something, man. These are things that I think really would benefit. I think everybody could benefit from emotional literacy. But I think if you start integrating, the way you experience emotions is neurological. The way you talk about emotions, the way you just, I feel like this world specifically, people are so careless with that component of it.

1:01:38Lewis Howes:They are. They are. Yeah. What is something you wish you knew when you were growing up that you now know now? The emotional regulation part. If I had understood that the emotional side of things would so directly impact my ability to be productive and move forward in a pathway, I would have spent that time. Instead of shoving down my emotions or compartmentalizing them, because I felt like that was my default. Like anytime I felt something big, I'd be like, not right now. Go away. And it would show up later in the weirdest kind of ways. So I just never figured it out. And it was truly until I was like, oh, these two things are connected that I felt like this deserves me going into and learning how to manage things.

1:02:31And my life has exponentially improved since then. And it's made me a better parent. It's made me a better partner. It's made me a better doctor. It's made me a better person because of that emotional regulation.

1:02:43Lewis Howes:Yeah. How can someone who feels like they're overly sensitive turn that into a strength? Number one, by recognizing that it's neurological. Like this isn't a quirk. This isn't your personality. It's not something that if you're born with it, you're going to luck. Like you just, you are, this is something. The brain is just so incredible that we have this capacity and this agency to rewire our brains. I think that's so, it makes psychiatry feel so hopeful. And so I think that if you feel, yes, I get overwhelmed all the time. This is really hard for me. And it's difficult for me to navigate through life because I feel like I'm constantly responding to these triggers.

1:03:26I think it is possible to kind of move on from these things, to learn your patterns, to learn what your triggers are, to learn how to manage them in real time. And you said this previously, and I loved how you phrased it, is you still want to feel things. You just have to navigate it. And I think that's what the takeaway is. It's giving yourself and trusting yourself enough to be able to navigate without feeling like I'm always going to be sucked under.

1:03:56Lewis Howes:As a parent of two kids, what's your biggest fear over the next 10 to 15 years for them? based around what's happening in society and like the overwhelm that a lot of youth are feeling and things like that i have so many fears i don't know if i can go the one that i most recently was thinking about and it kept me up like three days ago is thinking about like how increasingly digital our world has gotten and how isolated we all are like we we're all kind of operating like Like, you know, what triggered this is I walked into a coffee shop and I was waiting for my order. And I looked around. Literally every single person sitting on their phone.

1:04:41Sometimes there were two people sitting to eat with each other. They're both on their phones. And I'm guilty of that at times. I'm checking my email. I'm trying to multitask. But that's the world that we kind of are in right now where everybody is so in their own universe that it makes me think about, like, what's? what's 10 years down the line going to be?

1:05:02Lewis Howes:Yeah. As a parent, though, and as a doctor, how do you ensure that your kids have this emotional regulation at an early age? I think some of it, some of it is honestly in our house. I think because I've been figuring this out in real time. I've also made it a point to talk it out loud. So when I'm feeling big things, and especially with my dad where I was like, I really can't explain my way around it. They're seeing it. Like, I don't, we just have to talk about it. Talking about those kind of emotional moments and letting them in on how can we make this better? How can we, and having honest discussions.

1:05:40I think one of the most wonderful things that came out of that is that it really made me less afraid and it made them less afraid of emotion. Because like, you know, I could not stuff this down. And so, and they were seeing that. So it's like, how do we navigate this kind of as a family? And we're talking about it. We're talking about emotion. And I don't remember ever doing that as a kid with my parents.

1:06:07Lewis Howes:Talking about emotions. No. When something challenging would happen in the family or. I mean, maybe intermittently, but not like, not like this is where sadness is coming from in the brain. This is like when you feel this way, what's the difference between like feeling sad and feeling scared? And, you know, things like that. We're really talking about emotion a lot more. And like, you know, if we are, if we see something on TV, like my husband watched the Goonies with them the other day. And I was like, all right, great. But like talking to them about like, okay, look at this. What do you think they were feeling at that spot?

1:06:47So just like talking about it and integrating emotion into the conversation.

1:06:51Lewis Howes:Yeah, I think that's powerful. Yeah, I do too. So I feel like if you don't talk about, I think maybe there's, you know, what is it called? Gentle parenting or something where it's like maybe there's too much emotion every day long talking about it. But I think having those moments where you talk about your feelings or your emotions at different times, I think help kids realize it's not like something to stuff and you can't have emotion. Yeah. And I think there's an extreme the other side, but you're talking about it all day long every day. It's too much. Like, how are you feeling? And tell me more.

1:07:21Lewis Howes:And, you know, I think it was maybe too much. I haven't gotten to that point yet because they're still young. They can't talk yet. Yeah, they can't talk yet. Summer is here. And if you've been thinking about replacing your windows, doors, or siding, now is the perfect time to make your home more comfortable, beautiful, and energy efficient with Window World. Whether you're looking to refresh your curb appeal, let in more natural light, or simply enjoy a more comfortable home this summer, Window World has you covered with high-quality products professionally installed by trusted local experts. And right now, Window World is making it even easier to get started with financing options available for qualified buyers.

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1:09:17Lewis Howes:Wayfair. Every style, every home. I feel like with gentle parenting, and my mom's a - Gentle parenting, yeah. Yeah, we talk about this all the time, and I feel like, I mean, in my brain, I thought as a parent, like my Pinterest version of myself was that I would be a gentle parent. I'm not at all. But I think that sometimes it's a fine line between emotionally validating and kind of letting the child figure out, but also giving that firmness and structure. Because I think kids really need that. Boundaries. You need boundaries and you need like the kid can't navigate because then you get your whole slew of other things going on.

1:10:00Like it's really difficult for them to handle disappointment later. It's really difficult for them to understand how to be resilient.

1:10:07Lewis Howes:If someone doesn't have the ability to handle rejection, what type of life will they live? I don't know. They'll be a psychiatrist on social media, I guess. No, I feel like rejection is just such a normal part of the human experience. And a lot of times, rejection is just redirection, right? It kind of pushes you into a different pathway. I think what's important... But if you never learned how to navigate and handle rejection, small or big, what happens to your body, to your life, to your mind? I mean, I think you get consumed by it. Like a lot of times, sometimes you see rejection in people trying to avoid that or potentially deal with it in a different capacity.

1:10:54You see a lot of compensation behavior. So you see a lot of perfectionism. You see a lot of people pleasing. You see a lot of different pathways that, yes, initially may feel advantageous. This is people aren't criticizing me. I am always top of my game. I'm getting validating comments. This is great. But like in terms of sustainability, what is that doing to the quality of your life? What is that doing over time to you? What happens when you are normal one day and everyone's like, are you sick? Like what's happening to you? And so I think it's just a balance of trying to understand yourself because if you never really get on top of how to navigate rejection, how to navigate criticism, you're going to find other maladaptive ways to do it.

1:11:43Yeah.

1:11:44Lewis Howes:And I think also, if you never learn how to do it, you may never go after what you want because you're afraid of the rejection happening. So you never go for the career you want or launch the project you want or go for the relationship you want because you're afraid of the potential rejection that may or may not happen. Yes. And how to navigate the feeling of not being good enough if and when that happens. and and just like anticipating that acute pain i think is so hard i've had many patients who come into me and you know you you're talking about just their overall history you're talking about medical stuff going on you're talking about psychiatric stuff then you just break into like kind of socially what's what's happening in your life what's your life structured like and they talk about within relationships how that's the thing that they really really want I said my parents have had a 35 year relationship.

1:12:38They're so happy. I want that. I want kids someday. I want all of these things. But I can't get past that initial point. Or if we get into a conflict, it gets so hard and I'm back away. And so it's it's difficult. And I feel like in my 20s. you know i i tell my husband like i've never been broken up with because i would leave i'd like i think it would get a little hard like i'm out wow so no one ever broke up with you you broke up with them or you left i would just be like this is scary i'm out of here and i and i would use the excuse of like i'm in medical school i don't like i'm too busy i'm too busy and so it would be me running away from that and i feel like my husband kind of snuck past the guard on that one because we were long distance so i didn't have i wasn't constantly reading his tone or his body language we had you know we were communicating via text and phone call and all of the stuff and it would just it felt so easy and comforting and by the time we were in the same spot

1:13:41Lewis Howes:Would you try to run at one point where you're like, ah, it's too much conflict? He's pretty easy to be around. He's peaceful. He sounds like, hey, what's going on? Why are you feeling this way? It's a joy. That's amazing. It's evolved. Yeah, yeah. It's good. You got lucky. He had two older sisters, and I think they just beat it into him. Yeah, it's good. I have two older sisters as well. It's probably why I was too sensitive and also emotionally like, hey, what's going on? You know, it's like. Yeah, you can tell. That's interesting. So there was not enough conflict for you to feel like I'm out once you got close.

1:14:15No, believe me, there was plenty of conflict.

1:14:18Lewis Howes:For you to feel like you're out, though. At one point we did break up, but it wasn't conflict on his and our part. I think it was... Did you end it? Oh, so you did. You still haven't even broken up with, yeah. I did. But I think that that was, like, from a cultural perspective, we couldn't figure out how to blend those two. Is he a white guy? Yeah. Oh, wow. And so I was like, I don't, and like my family, I mean, it just like historically has had arranged marriages. This was like so out of the norm. What do you mean? You have love. Yeah. What is this? You're allowed to love someone? It's crazy because my parents were so in love.

1:14:57They were truly meant for each other. And so I had this like expectation, like that's what it's going to be. There's no, and then, you know, it just, it, it blossomed into this wonderful relationship. And then I was like, wait, but that's not what we're supposed to do. I'm not supposed to do that. My family doesn't want that. And then we had to.

1:15:17Lewis Howes:Why waste your time with someone if you weren't supposed to do that? I don't know. I don't know. It happened. Everyone goes through the phase and then they're like, all right. He was so handsome. There you go. There you go. So, I mean, it's like giving that opportunity 10 out of 10 times. I'm going to take that opportunity. But your fear of either rejection from your family or society or the culture was like, oh, I'm not doing it the way it's supposed to be. And so part of you was afraid of that rejection feeling. I don't want to let down my parents. I don't want to. And since that time, it's been like such a beautiful blending and everything has been great.

1:15:55But that initial period, I think it was too scary.

1:16:00Lewis Howes:How long were you together for before that breakup? Like three years. Wow. So didn't you know, though, going into it, like this isn't going to last if the fear of rejection, I'm going to back out eventually because it's not an arranged marriage. Okay. Can I tell you, though, because it was such a cute story that I was like, it's fate. Clearly this has to, like, we, we, I, we ended up seeing each other and I saw him from like across the restaurant. And I was like, awesome. And so like I went and immediately talked to him and he had been sent from across the street because that bartender across the street was like, go and talk to that girl.

1:16:34You'll like her. And then later I found out that my best friend's parents had been trying to set us up on a blind date for two years. And I kept saying like, no, I don't want it. I don't like just show me a picture. And it wouldn't. And I was like, the guy's got to be a dog. Don't like now. And so I was just like, there's so many.

1:16:51Lewis Howes:But then you had the fear after three years that like, oh, we can't do this. It goes against. I think it became so real because we're like, well, what do we do here? Because I'm ending school. Like, I, like we're, we have been together. We love each other so much. Do we get married? Do we cut, like, do we cut ties? Like, this is such a transitional spot. And then I was just like, too scary, too much. And like, at that point I was just like, my parents were just, had such a hard time with it that I was like, I can't. Yes. For three years, they had a hard time with it. Oh, they didn't know for the first part.

1:17:27Lewis Howes:Oh, wow. So the first couple of years, they didn't know. I mean, no. So you're also afraid of the rejection from your parents that you weren't even telling them. Yeah. For a couple of years. Yeah. Long distance. Wow. So you had a fear around the rejection from them as well. Big time. Because I knew my expectation. What my expectation was is that you finish your educational kind of background, and then you go into this next season of life. And at that point, your parents know you so well. They find you a partner that you, and you date them for a while. If you like them, you get married to that person.

1:18:03If you don't like them, you try again. But it's someone that your family has vetted and they know the family and they know everything about them. And it's like, it's not even like just your parents. It's like - The whole community. Yeah, you have like the weigh-in from all these people of like, I think that's going to be a good match. so i just kind of assumed that was my trajectory and so i was like when we got to this point where i'm like oh god i like this i fell in love with this beautiful beautiful person in my emotionally evolves beautiful kind and like and i'm gonna say no to him family i mean oh my god i just

1:18:41Lewis Howes:and i swear when i hear when i hear stories like this where people are watching or listening like Like you found a dream man and the other way would be like, what are you doing? You know, it's like, how could you say no to this? It's insane. And like, Louis, you lay eyes on this man. Painting guy, huh? Even I would be attracted. Yes. It's like, he will get stopped in public. And I'm like, I'm right here. It's, but it is one of those things where I was so terrified of what does this mean? What does this mean for my relationship with my family? What does this mean? I cannot, I have to let this go.

1:19:19And so I think that was hard. And then, you know.

1:19:24Lewis Howes:So how did you get back together then? How did you overcome the fear of rejection from your whole community? Yeah. Your parents, your family, your Stennin family, everyone judging you, making you wrong for making this choice. How did you overcome that fear? Now keep in mind that even though all of this was kind of happening, I truly understood, even as this was happening in real time, and he understood too, which was incredible, that this is so culturally driven. This wasn't that they hated him. This wasn't that they didn't trust me. Although I had a terrible track record. So this is what we do culturally.

1:20:05Your mom and I are so happy. We want that happiness for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after a month of us, I told David, I'm like, we can't talk because it'll break my heart. You can't do that. This man calls me. I was in a call room in Phoenix and I was on call. So I pick up the phone and I was like, I told you not to call. He calls me and he's like, I will wait as long as it takes. If you have to, I will move on when you get married. And I was like, holy cow. I can't pass that up.

1:20:33Lewis Howes:Holy cow. So what? So then I was like, all right, then let's do this. Let's do it. And so then that next day I was like, this is what's happening to my family. Wow. And it was a rejection. It wasn't, it was a cultural clash. And they were like, this can't work. Like we, this, this isn't like, he doesn't come from the same cultural background. How are you going to raise kids together? Like, it's going to be a blend. There's going to be too many barriers. We're so scared about this process. Wow. And it was difficult because for a while they weren't even like the two parties weren't even interacting with each other because my parents were like just make this go away we'll figure it out and then we got all the way until you know we're we're getting married and we're doing all these things it it was really after kids where it was just like everything kind of clicked into place and then my parents were like oh I get it and it was just like that fear of me like not following cultural things they could see then in in their own way and their own conclusions that this is such a loving supportive person who truly like cradles my whole life makes it so easy wow and so i mean once they saw that once they saw him as a father what they saw him as a it just like everything and towards the end of my dad's life my my husband's mom died of brain cancer and so he knew this process he was there like every second tending to my dad oh my gosh i know i want to give this guy a hug he's you should he's great how long you guys been married now we just had our 10 year in a holy cow yeah two kids 10 years married and you haven't run away no i don't I don't think I'm going to.

1:22:33I'm tired.

1:22:33Lewis Howes:And so it's like you've shown that like, hey, it doesn't have to be this cultural way to be the only way also. Yeah. Even though they rejected it or were not fans of it and pushed it away for a long time, it took time for you guys to face that together. But it seems like a beautiful love story. It was. It's my favorite love story. Wow. But to be honest, I think that the cultural kind of expectation of an arranged marriage, really good for someone who's scared of rejection. Like, this is already set for me. But isn't it part of a human being's experience to have to overcome that fear of rejection rather than saying, all right, just take care of it for me.

1:23:16Lewis Howes:And I'm going to stay a kid forever because I'm going to let my parents always do things for me instead of have the courage to face potential rejection. I don't necessarily think having an arranged marriage. like I think there's so many people who do that and are perfectly evolved and they're they're whole for me myself if I had gone down that road it was simply because I would be too scared to step out of that cultural lane yeah and it was truly because he was so wonderful that I was able to and it's like wonderful in a way that like most people would have if there is a family that's like We don't want you.

1:23:54Yeah, he's still going. Yes. This guy's a saint.

1:23:59Lewis Howes:This guy's a saint. I'm telling you. That's great. Sasha, I got to get to the end here. I've got a couple of final questions for you. Before I ask them, I want people to check out your book, Too Sensitive, Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply. Yeah. I wish I had this book when I was a teenager. It would have helped me a lot. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called The Three Truths. Okay. Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want on this earth, but it's the last day for you in the future. And you get to create and experience life on your terms. All your dreams come true.

1:24:33Lewis Howes:You write tons of bestselling books. It all comes through to you. But on the last day, you have to take all your work with you. And no one in this world has access to your content anymore. But you get to leave behind three truths. And from everything you've learned in life, everything you've learned in your work, family, relationships, you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would leave with the world. What would those three truths be for you?

1:25:00Okay. The first one are, the first one is don't be scared of your emotions. Like lean into them. I think that's a really important one that for me, even sometimes I'd be scared by the highs I would feel by something because I'm like, it's going to go away. So just be able to feel them, be able to process them. That's one. The other truth is I think there's nothing more precious than time with loved ones. I just feel so strongly about that. And I feel like it takes, like if you're lucky enough to have those relationships where you can continue to cultivate and grow them and spend that time and energy, with that quality time.

1:25:52There's nothing better than that. And the third truth is to lead with kindness even when the world expects you not to. Because I think the world is a hard place and I think you just need to infuse more of what you want to see.

1:26:15Lewis Howes:That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Sasha, for the journey you've been on. I know it's not been easy from the marriage stuff to your dad passing and all the things you've had to face in your practice. And people need this work more now than ever. So I acknowledge you for putting this book out there, for sharing your content online and for having the courage to face rejection yourself as a great example for other people as well. So I acknowledge you for that. My final question, Sasha, what's your definition of greatness. Greatness is truly understanding and being able to work with your brain.

1:26:52Because I think that that lives in us. And it's just a matter of understanding how your brain works and how to unlock that potential.

1:27:02Lewis Howes:It's awesome. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Of course. Anytime. Amazing. Powerful. Yay. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now, because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:27:41Lewis Howes:Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter.

1:28:20Lewis Howes:And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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