The Science of Doing Less to Achieve More | David Epstein

20:41Lewis Howes:So how do we shift our mindset to see a lack of resources not as a disadvantage, but as the exact spark that we need to create a massive breakthrough or potential success? Start asking what you can do with this constraint. Again, instead of this is keeping me down, how does this lead me to clarify my priorities? How does this lead me to launch into experimentation? When I gave the book to one of the early readers was this guy named Ed Hoffman. He was NASA's first chief knowledge officer. It's like the head psychologist at NASA. Wow. He stops at a point in the book and says, I have to tell you about this mission called LCROSS we had.

21:16That's just an acronym. And he says, the team ended up with about half the time and half the budget that they wanted. And so first they whined a little. And then they said, well, if we were going to get this done, how would we do it? They end up borrowing imaging equipment from army tanks because they couldn't create from scratch. They had to borrow. They take engine temperature sensors from NASCAR and they put it on a probe and they discover water on the moon. And he said, they never would have done this kind of repurposing, except it forced them to say, if we were going to get this done under these limitations, how would we do it?

21:48So then it became an exercise they would do, even if they weren't, even if they didn't have to. It's a, you know, if we had to get this done half the time, what would we do? And all these ideas come out, even if you're not forced to do that and those ideas can be useful.

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24:32Lewis Howes:Go to linkedin.com slash Lewis. Terms apply. This is probably the greatest question every entrepreneur can ask themselves if they want to be successful. How can I get this done in half the time with no money? Or I think also having resources for entrepreneurs can be a big problem. You know what I mean? The more funding you get, you spend it, you just burn a lot of stuff. You're not thinking resourcefully enough to say, hey, how do we make this better without this money? You can't. We are incapable of doing it unless you're forced to. It's just not the way our brains are programmed. And exactly to what you're saying, I quote in the book, Bill Gurley, a venture capitalist, Uber, Zillow, all these other places.

25:12He said, when I was talking to him about constraints, he said, yeah, we have a saying in venture that more startups die of indigestion than starvation, like from too much rather than too little. Another prominent venture capitalist I was interviewing said his whole strategy is to go for companies that are like in a little bit of debt. So they're not going to die, but they're getting really lean and scrappy. and so I mean yeah the first the first chapter of the book is about a startup that had way too much of everything and even though they had like the greatest collection of talent arguably ever assembled in tech they they were a disaster you learn when you're small right you learn when you're small and and your expenses and and and risk don't explode until you you know you I mean this is why like I write in the book about Pixar which will allow directors to stay in development of a story for years with a small team, refining and simplifying the core of a story because the costs only explode once you move into production.

26:10That's when learning becomes hard.

26:12Lewis Howes:And story is the most important thing. And so in that small phase, they can be small and learn because once it gets big, it's hard to learn and pivot, much harder. Yeah, that's interesting. What is the biggest lesson you've learned from researching and writing this book that has made you a better person? I have a really bad acronym for myself, but it involves a couple of lessons. Can I share those with you even though it's a stupid habit? So I think of it as BCS press release, right? It's something like bowl championship series press release. Okay. B is batch your work. So our attention, we need to structure our attention, it'll be structured for us.

26:52So in average, this psychologist Gloria Mark found that people in an office check email on average 77 times a day. And if you have to do all your email, you have to do all your email, but you should batch it. You can do multiple tasks over the day, but you should do them in blocks so that you're not toggling all day long or your productivity will be lower. And we now know that it causes your stress to skyrocket. Batch your work. So you're doing one thing at a time, monotasking, but it can be multiple monotasks over the day. C, make commitments, make all your commitments visible, put them on post-it notes on the wall, everything you're committed to right now so that they're visible.

27:27And what you're most likely to see is that you're overcommitted, whether to the projects you have, personal things, whatever it is. And then say, if I had to cut something in the next 90 days, what would it be? It's called playing the subtraction game. We're hardwired to overlook subtraction as a way to get better. How many commitments should one have at one time to be successful at all of them? I don't have a specific number. I mean, I think it depends, but I think everyone I've seen this, I've mostly seen this done, been doing this with teams, but when they make them all visible, immediately people are like, there's way more stuff right in process than we could ever finish.

28:01And so I think doing these like regular subtraction audit, basically, now this is called subtractive neglect bias is the psychological term for, we're hardwired always to add to solve problems. So always reducing, I mean, on my daily to-do list, I have multiple things, but I put one thing on top that if that gets done, it's a good day. Yes.

28:20Lewis Howes:One thing. My friend Rory says that you need to procrastinate on purpose and he calls he says pop it like if you have all these great ideas like maybe it's a great idea but if it's not one of the main focuses now like put it to the side you can always come back in two years and say here those post-its to the other make it to the front yes that's right pop he called it stop starting start finishing you gotta like stop starting new things start finishing so make commitments visible and then you can have more clarity on which you really want to focus on and take some off yeah so bcs um satisficing rules talked about that setting good good enough rules for yourself.

28:54And the press release, I got this one from Tony Fidel, who's known as the podfather. He was the lead designer of the... He led the team that created the iPod. And then he went on and co-founded Nest. And the main advice he gives to entrepreneurs is to write the press release before they do anything else. Say, envision this thing is done on one page, write the press releases if it's out. And he says, even do the FAQ, because this gives you your bounding box for what are the things I think are so important to focus on that I'll put them in the press release when it's done. At Nest, he made the team prototype the box, work inside a literal box before they had the product because he said, this is what we're going to communicate to a customer at the end.

29:35If it doesn't fit on this box, we've decided it's not a priority. And that's how you keep...

29:39Lewis Howes:So how does this look for you if you're writing a press release for some project you're working on ahead of time? What would that look like? What type of idea or project is that? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I did it for this book after interviewing Tony. He was like, you got to write the press release he did it he did it for his own book you got to write the press release and this was very foreign to me because i typically sort of stumble into a book and you're not a promoter okay no i mean not not necessarily that i'm getting better at that yeah yeah um but you weren't sure about what it was going to be is what you're saying yeah is i just feel like well how can i know but then i did it and i realized it provided these i mean one of the reasons it's right it's been like six years between my books is because i've been so bad at drawing boundaries around my projects.

30:22So for the first two books, I ended up writing 150 % of the length of the book and then having to cut back to get the book. This was the first time I wrote one book to get one book, very much because of that exercise where he told me on one page. And I realized the main ideas that I would want to, the stories I didn't know yet, all those things, but the ideas I wanted to investigate were already there. And it's not that you can't change things, but you do have these these like guiding light so now do it even for stuff in my personal life you know if i'm picking up a hobby or working out it's like at the end of this year if i were announcing my accomplishment to someone else what would i want to say on here it's not that you can't change

31:00Lewis Howes:it but it gives you some guidelines so did you do one for jiu-jitsu yeah absolutely because you're learning this new hobby jiu-jitsu yeah yeah and it's hard because i don't know where can i get in a year but you can make goals and you know this is a press release where it's like who would i give it to my friends and family right how consistent do i want to have been how many sessions do i want to have uh attended things like things like that so that's cool so you write like a one-page press release i really like that because your future casting the result you want it to be you know however you however you look like that i used to do something back when i was playing you know in the 2000s early 2000s mid 2000s around my sports goals I would write like a certificate of accomplishment and then I would sign it and date it of like you have accomplished this this and this signed by me and I put it on my wall as a little visual representation that in a year or six months or two years this is what I'm going to create and it just reminded me looking at it on my wall every single day this is a certificate your future self has created this now you need to go and take the actions to make it happen it makes it a little real, right?

32:04It's like you've made a commitment that makes it feel real and a little more attainable. I feel like when I see it on one page or like on the certificate, it gets condensed a little. It doesn't feel as overwhelming. It's clear, right? The goal is clear. I like that. I like that a lot. Okay. So the press release. And then what else was there? BCS press release, batching, commitments visible, satisficing rules, and the press release. Those are things that I've really applied to myself quite a bit. If you want to be creative, I would If people are struggling with creativity, the best thing you can do is block the solution you're familiar to.

32:39At this next client meeting, if we weren't allowed to propose what we usually propose, what would we propose instead? Again, it doesn't mean you have to do it, but that mindset. One executive, actually, I didn't make this one. An executive told me, I was talking about constraints, and he used what he called the legacy constraint, where he told his company, let's say we were going out of business in two years and nobody knew it but us. How would we change things? And immediately people started saying, well, I'd stop focusing on that and I'd start focusing on this. And he's like, then do that.

33:08Lewis Howes:Why would we do that right now? Right. Yeah. Right. But it's because, you know, we don't clarify, I think, to the amount we have to. Right. We were talking about Ryan Holiday a little bit before and, you know, his work with stoicism. And one of the one of the most famous stoic prompts is memento mori. Like, remember your mortality where you're supposed to wake up every day and like, remember that your life is on limited time and that that clarifies your priorities for what you should do. Steve Jobs said this. I think it was in his Stanford commencement address. It's like the best thing you have is knowing that you're going to die because that's how you clarify your priorities.

33:41And this is in a bunch of religions and philosophies. Buddhism has a similar concept. It might seem a little morbid, but it does have a way of clarifying things.

33:48Lewis Howes:I think it's important because for me, probably every day I think about my death, not in a Mormon way, but I think the stat is 150 ,000 people die every single day in the world. 150 ,000 people. and we weren't one of them today. That should be something we're grateful for. We have another opportunity today to connect with people we love, to create meaningful work, to do things we're passionate about, to explore the world. But it also doesn't mean tomorrow's guaranteed. 150 ,000 people die every single day. We should be grateful. And hopefully that gives us some constraints also of saying, hey, I had a really bad day today and maybe you went through something horrible in your life today.

34:30Lewis Howes:but you're still here. And I think that's something you can at least appreciate and be grateful for and give you some more relief from maybe the stress you might be going through in your life. And I'm actually curious about the topic of forgiveness and what this has to do with constraints in this new way of thinking. Should we feel guilty or shame around things, or should we have this sense of forgiveness with constraints? Yeah, I think it's important. I mean, forgiveness comes up very, very late in the book, and it doesn't seem like an obvious topic, right? And so not obvious that you're literally the first person to ask me about it.

35:08And the way I framed it in the book was in this discussion of what's called narrative values. The last chapter gets kind of personal and philosophical. And narrative values for some philosophers mean the themes of the story of your life, basically. And we can all think of them. Like for me, it would certainly be curiosity would definitely be one, open-mindedness. But you want some that are objectively valuable, that like you find in all the great stories across cultures, you know, loyalty, heroism, all these sorts of things. I'm sure for you, there'd be things like self-improvement, athleticism, you know, all these kinds of things, risk-taking.

35:44And so I started, I think in this world where we're bombarded with news and everything. You want to consolidate your caring. There's so much you could care about, but it's so overwhelming that you want to pick some things, some that you already have so you can tell a coherent story to yourself because we know it's really important for people's sense of well-being to have a coherent personal story. So I have mine, but forgiveness was one that I did not have. And I created this relationship with a guy I write about in the book who was the only living Olympian to have survived a concentration camp and became a two-time British weightlifting Olympian.

36:18And he was so forgiving. He would take other survivors with him and say, we have to go back to Poland and Germany and build bridges. It's not their fault. What happened to us? We have to build those bridges. And I was not a very innately forgiving person. And so I decided that I wanted to add that to my story, that that would be one of those other things that I would try to add in my narrative values that give me sort of a guiding light of getting from who I am to where I want to Why weren't you a forgiving person? I've just always, I had just natural grudge holder, you know, just like often feeling slighted more easily than I should.

36:56And it's like you're poisoning yourself, you know? And so I think with him as the model, I said, gosh, if he can forgive some of this stuff, like he was, you know, his entire family was destroyed. And then the stuff that I hold on to look so petty in comparison. And so I picked this, instead of being overwhelmed by every news story and what things I could do, I picked a value that I wanted to be something that would be a new guiding light for me.

37:25Lewis Howes:Why do you think you had on to so many grudges? I wish I could answer that. I don't know. As far as I know, it's just how I've always been. It's just something about me. I don't know why. And sometimes I treat it as fuel, right? Like when i was a college runner and it's like if someone uh i was an 800 meter runner it's like someone tripped you in a race or something it's like i'd be so angry like i'd like want to throw up the next time i saw him get off the bus you know and so so maybe in some ways i viewed it as as fuel but i i don't think it actually really i think you can be that determined without the kind of fuel that also poisons you the rest of the time well it's interesting because there's a lot of athletes that talk about the underdog story the chip on the shoulder the being slighted to being, you know, picked last, you know, or not drafted, whatever it may be.

38:15And it drove them to be successful because they weren't picked on the team, because they

38:20Lewis Howes:weren't drafted, because they were made fun of, because they, I was picked last on the team as well when I was in elementary school. And it drove me. I said, never again will I be picked last. And it worked until it realized like, oh, this doesn't feel good. Once I accomplish all these things, maybe it felt good for a moment that I proved everyone wrong. You know, these imaginary people from middle school or something, right? Who probably could care less about me at this point. Yeah. But is it making me a happier human being? Do I feel more peaceful, harmonious inside? Do I feel like I have an enriching environment inside of me spiritually?

38:55Lewis Howes:Or has this fuel, this negative fuel driven me to accomplish? And then what? Yeah. Have you researched and studied the differences between athletes, entrepreneurs, and individuals who've accomplished success in life, who've done it from a place of hate, anger, and resentment versus love, passion, and purpose? Yeah. I mean, I think a huge example that people would think of, right, if you watched like Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame speech where he was redressing all these grievances, some of which I think are invented. So he obviously had an ability to create a feeling of being an underdog, even if he really wasn't.

39:41And I think that can be helpful. I mean, I've always felt like an underdog, probably because I'm small, right? And was like in lots. I mean, I played football, basketball and baseball in high school before I started running and I've always been small. But he also had a lot of love. I mean, like he had that whole clause built into his. I think it was called like the for the love of the game clause or something where he was allowed to play in the offseason where normally like they didn't want him to because he wouldn't get injured. And so I think there was a lot of love there, too. But I think most of the high performers that I've spent time around are resilient, really resilient.

40:15And part of that resilience is being able to get over stuff and being able to work with people that they've been upset with sometimes. Really? And so I think you can be like strategic anger, but if it's like you can't get over stuff, including your teammates mistakes, I don't think that, you know, is sustainable in the long run.

40:34Lewis Howes:You don't have to say the person's name, but is there anyone that you've had a grudge with that you haven't forgiven yet in life?

40:43There's one that I'm still working through. Yeah. I mean, you know, because I think feelings of betrayal can be very difficult.

40:51Lewis Howes:Yeah, of course. and you got to create boundaries as well. You got to create constraints in relationships. Absolutely. If boundaries are constantly crossed when expressed and communicated and they keep being crossed. And I think you need to make those explicit because otherwise you'll move the goalposts. This is like, you know, I'm pro trying out new jobs, but I think you should have quit criteria that you write before you start. It's like if this thing happens, that's a sign I can't be here anymore. Because if you don't do that, you'll move the goalposts. And I think sometimes that can be true for relationships too.

41:24Those can be things that are really bad, but that you should have them.

41:30Lewis Howes:So how do you come at peace with forgiving someone or just having peace within your heart, even if you don't want to work with that person or see that person again? Have you learned that or how would someone do that? I think I'm much better at it. And I think some of it comes from, first of all, just the acceptance that things are going to happen that you don't like in life and you just have to move on from them. it's a sunk cost, right? It's like if you already spent money, I mean sunk cost fallacy, right? Sometimes if we spend money on something that doesn't work out, we're often likely to spend more just because we spent some, even if it's clearly a bad idea.

42:04And I think the same thing can be true in all other aspects of our psychology where it's just hard to move on from things when we've invested time and energy. But bad things are going to happen that you don't like. And we've all been at our worst at some point. And so I like to try to think, what must this person's view of the world be to have done what they did? And it often comes to the fact that they were not trying to slight me as much as they felt, right? There's this thing called the spotlight effect in psychology where you think there's a spotlight on you. Like you think everyone's looking at you and thinking about you, but they're all busy looking and thinking at themselves, right?

42:39And so that kind of recognition that when someone did something that's really hurtful to you, that they really weren't thinking about you. Maybe that sounds bad, but I think it's good because it means they were more careless than really like evil, right? And I think that's an important sort of adult thing to recognize.

42:54Lewis Howes:There are some evil people that are intentionally evil, though. It happens. That do slight people. And then I think you got to try to not experience that. It's not fun. Not be working with those people if you can. Exactly. And were you able to forgive those people eventually? Or at least to have some closure? Yeah, there's a lot of people that I've created peace with where I've just like created boundaries. And I think that's helped me. You know, it's, it's frustrating, but it's pretty much everyone from my past. I feel like I've created, it doesn't mean I like them or that I'm like, think of them in a good light, but I'm like, okay, these are where these people are at and in the world for me.

43:28Lewis Howes:And that's okay. I don't need to focus on them anymore. And, uh, yeah, anyone moving forward, it's like, it should, you got to communicate clear boundaries. And that's what I've learned as opposed to allowing things to slip or slide or continue. you, it's like standing up to bullies. You have to face it and communicate. This doesn't work for me. That doesn't mean they're going to stop. So it's learning how to do things when you create a boundary or constraint and they keep doing the negative things. That's what I need to figure out the next process because I'm not sure how to do that. I think that that's really insightful.

44:05It's like this, I think we need to do these things explicitly. As I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot more explicit about, and maybe even sounds silly, but writing down what are the values that are important to me? Again, these narrative values. What are lines that can be crossed, which means this isn't somebody that I'm going to work with, or this isn't somebody that I'm going to have a sustainable friendship with? That doesn't mean they're bad, but just understanding myself better. And what are the things that if I'm not explicit about them, about having these constraints and boundaries, I will move the goalposts.

44:38Right? And just like being more explicit about. Yeah. And you'll allow for bad behavior to happen and let it slip or whatever. It's like maybe it won't happen again and things. But I think having those lines is OK. And again, it doesn't have to mean that that person's bad. But but I think it's important to have your own. 100 percent. I am big on simple daily habits that support how you show up.

44:59Lewis Howes:And this is about building a routine that helps you eat, sleep, thrive, repeat. Nature's Bounty is all about helping you thrive from your head to your heels. You can support your heart, bone, nerve, and muscle health with magnesium glycinate. And if you want a little extra heart support, there is Vital Heart Rapid Release Soft Gels made with magnesium and CoQ10. And for digestive and immune health, Probiotic 10 delivers 20 billion live probiotic cultures in a one pill per day formula, which makes it easy to stay consistent. And if you care about building habits that support your goals, this is one way to stay intentional with your health.

45:33Lewis Howes:Nature's bounty. It's in your nature. Learn more at naturesbounty.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

46:05Lewis Howes:today. New customers only. Service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required. Conditions apply to apps. HBO Max Basic with ads begins after DirecTV five-day trial. Learn more at directtv.com. Restrictions apply. If someone watching or listening feels behind in their 30s or 40s and they haven't specialized on one thing yet, what does the science actually say about their potential for the future? Yeah, well, let me make you guess here. So what do you think is the average age of a founder, based on research by MIT, Northwestern, the Census Bureau that came out a few years ago, the average age of a founder of a fast growing startup.

46:44Of a fast growing startup? Yeah. Which means, I think fast growing was like top one in 10 ,000, top one in 10 ,000 growth. Top like 1 % or you mean - No, it was more than 1%. Really? Yeah. Yeah. One in 10 ,000. Okay. So what's the stat again? What's the question? What's the average age of a founder of one of those startups on the day of founding, according to MIT and the Census Bureau in Northwestern. It's probably like late 40s or something. Good for you, 45. Really? Yeah. I mean, I would think that most people would guess in their 20s. 21 or something, yeah. And there are very famous examples of, right?

47:16And that model of promoting the young founders has obviously had some stellar successes.

47:21Lewis Howes:I just went right to the people that are in their 50s already that launched something from the past, like, I don't know, KFC founder or whatever. It's like in his 50s or something. and all these other successes in their 40s and 50s, maybe even 60s, probably because you have so much experience and wisdom. You also have so much more relationship capital. You've hopefully built reputation. You have a broad range of skill sets that now you can now focus into one main thing because you can see the patterns differently. Exactly. Obviously, there's a lot of talented young stars who've become millionaires and built unicorn companies, but those are very rare.

47:55That's right. And that's the issue is we focus on the exception not the norm, right? Like Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of college, started Facebook. And he famously said, young people are just smarter. He said that when he was 22. You don't hear him saying that anymore, surprisingly, right? So I think it's not too late for you to take risks. I think you should be looking at all the things you've done. What are the skills that you've acquired? I mean, one of the things I think that makes these like 50-year-old founder more likely to succeed than a 30-year-old founder is they've identified specific problems.

48:25This was another big Tony Fidel thing. So in this epic disastrous company that I write about in the book called General Magic, all the talent, all the capital, they said their customer was Joe Sixpack. And then they turned around after a few years and missed deadlines and said, nobody knows the guy. Who is Joe Sixpack? So they hadn't articulated a clear customer problem that they were solving. I think sometimes these older entrepreneurs, they've done some things and they bump into something. It's like, here's something that's really annoying. Let's go solve that problem. Yeah. Because most of these fast growing tech startups or most fast growing startups are band-aids, not vitamins.

49:00It's not something that's nice to have. It's something where you're relieving pain for somebody in their work or in their life. And so they identify and well-defined problems because they've had experience.

49:10Lewis Howes:I think the gift of young, successful entrepreneurs, a lot of it is, sure, they had maybe talent and they were smart but i think a lot of it is the ability to just take big risks because they have nothing to lose because they are young they don't have the family yet they don't have the responsibility or whatever it might be like when i was in my early 20s i was like i'm already broke how else will go for it i was like i got nothing to lose i'm already sleeping on my sister's couch like um okay let's just go for it you know and if i fail who cares i have nothing. And I think sometimes when people get older, they feel like I can't take that risk sometimes.

49:49Lewis Howes:There's other people that are like still have the risk gene and they're like, oh, this is the moment I need to go do something now because I have all this experience and there is a pain here or problem. Let me go take action on this. But I think it's people get restricted when they're unwilling to take certain risks later in life, I feel like. And you get used to things, right? Because in some ways you'd feel like, I agree with everything you said, but in some ways it feels like when you're older, sometimes you might be better equipped to take, like if you or I took certain risks now, we might lose some of our money, but like we're not going to miss any meals.

50:25Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So actually, as long as we're not instantly accustomed to our bank account or everything like that, like we're actually, and we have professional capital, right? So in some ways, you'd think that we'd be well-equipped to take risks, but psychologically, nobody likes to kind of go backward when you have stuff.

50:43Lewis Howes:Yeah. The emotional failure of something, whatever you know. So David, hypothetically, if you lost all your money tomorrow, and in six months, you had to make a million dollars, and you had no money right now, how would you do it? Do I have to do it ethically or not? Ethically. Oh, okay. under your values, under your core values. Because I was about to say, like I used to do when I was at Sports Illustrated, I used to investigate some branches of the dietary supplement industry and realized one could make a lot of money there, but doing things that are - As long as it's ethical, I guess. Yeah.

51:19Lewis Howes:But if you were given a constraint to make a million dollars in a year, let's say, and you had no money, at least what do you think you would do? Where would your brain start to go if you had that constraint? Oh, well, I mean, I know the actual answer is I would just sign another book contract. Really? There you go. Yeah, I mean - But what takes you is, let's say you had to finish it within a year, which usually takes you four to five years to finish a book. It's not going to take me four to five years anymore because my new process for this book - Really? Yeah. I can write more books now. Whether that'll be smart because of AI and all this stuff is a different question, but the press release, this time I did a one-page outline where obviously I ended up writing as small as possible.

51:57I was trying to fool my own system, but if it wasn't on that page, it isn't in the book. And so I didn't write over length this time. I ended up way less burned out. This partly came about because I became a parent and I was like, I can't be letting this swallow up my whole life the way I did in the past and dragging on for years and years. I actually turned it in early. Does anybody turn in books early?

52:18Lewis Howes:You do to like last minute, give me an extra week or two. So yeah, if you had me, you know, this goes to this question that we were talking before. If you said, David, you have to get the, so I think now my process would go down to two years. And then if you said, David, if you had to get a book done in a year, what would you do? Immediately my mind starts turning to, I could do it. It would be tough, but I could do it. If you had to do it in three months, what would you do? If I had to do it in three months - And it had to be a great book. It can't just be like some sloppy book. And I have no money, so I can't hire a research assistant or anything like that.

52:48What would you do? If I had to do it in three months, I would narrow into things where I already have a significant body of research and then would start because I have a long history of research, right? So there are a lot of topics that I could dive into in deeper detail, where I already have lots of contacts, things like that. I mean, I have incredible contacts in the sports world, right? So I could get within months, very inside views into, you know, training facilities, like how do GMs make decisions? I think if I had to, I could turn around a book in three months that would look at like the, the psychology of personnel selection in, in elite sports.

53:24If I had to.

53:25Lewis Howes:Now here's an even deeper one. If you, if you had to write a book in three months and it had to launch in three months, it'd be a New York time bestseller. How would you do it? Oh man. I think I would, man, you're really giving me my own medicine here. That's what I'm saying. Because if you had to do it, I think I would start making, because there wouldn't be time for like doing it and then doing a launch process. I think I would have to make the reporting of the book be the launch process. Yes. I'd have to be bringing people along to those places instead of just like notebook and recording for my own purposes, I'd probably be recording.

53:58Maybe I even bring film with me and things like that so that people seeing the process of the book and then the end would just be like, and you saw all that stuff and here it is now. I think I'd have to do. And they're just pre-ordering. Maybe that would be a smart thing to do actually.

54:09Lewis Howes:I like this idea. And what you could do is say, I'm watching whatever it be, six months or whatever, but hey, pre-order the book now. Here's the link. Yeah. I'm going to take you on the journey. It is coming out this date. I'm going to create my own restraints. Yeah. And you can order it every day to pre-order leading up to this moment. I haven't finished it yet and you're following the journey. That could be an interesting - This is not a bad idea actually. I think it's great. That's your next book. I think you should create your restraints. Maybe it's three months, maybe it's six months but I think it should be extremely uncomfortable for you.

54:39Lewis Howes:I would love to see you, even just the way you were like, oh my gosh what do i do like i would love to see you not have it perfectly with all the time in the world for yourself and be forced to say i need to sell a hundred thousand copies i need to be on your time as a seller i need to be something like and what would you have to do in order to make that happen it's interesting because i think having so much time in the past has been not good for me. I think it's... I think three months is not what I would choose. Yeah, but maybe whatever, you know. But given how slow my process has been, I could and should get, if I'm going to write more books, get them out more frequently.

55:21There's no reason for it to have taken as long as it did.

55:23Lewis Howes:And does it have to be 300 pages? Does it have to be... This one's 20 % shorter than the other two, and I don't think it's worth software. It's my most economical writing, for sure. There you go. So I would love to see that. this is interesting because i just started doing video stuff i may this is not a bad idea i mean i would give yourself six months personally because i think it'd be uncomfortable for you it would be it can't be just like oh it's enough in the time yeah i can do it into that it has to force you to do things you wouldn't you wouldn't do otherwise yeah yeah and how would you use ai and how would you tap into resources and how would you build relationships or use relationships whatever it might be to support that i think it'd be fascinating would you have to traditionally publish self-publish you know i think one thing that would actually be helpful too is sometimes when i interview people and i'm very early i'm like yeah you may see this because i do a ton of interviews and a lot of them don't go in it's you you you may see this quote in two and a half years or something in this case if i were like this thing is coming out in a few months i think it actually might help with certain interviews where people feel a sense of urgency you may do less interviews too i i would say i'm only going to interview these people and you know nine out of 10 are going to make it.

56:27Lewis Howes:Maybe one doesn't for some reason, but it's like something has to make it from these people that I choose as opposed to, I'm going to interview 10 of the best experts on this topic. I'm going to interview two. And the trips would have to be really well thought out. In my first book, In the Sports Gene, I took a trip to Arctic Sweden that I cut from the book. And if I had done a little more I mean, the trip was super interesting. Not that I regret having taken it, but that's a tough thing to cut. And so I think had I put in a little more thought, if I had understood what the book looked like. If I did the press release, I would have realized that this was not going to fit.

57:02Lewis Howes:Interesting. I would love to see that next book for you to give constraints and actually document it publicly. I'm launching a book on this date. I haven't started. I have six months. And that'd be so different from what I'm used to too. So I think it would be interesting because there's some writers that write books very often. Yeah, they take years. I'm not one of them. I think it'd be fascinating. I'm going to give you that challenge. I just think it'd be really cool. you've studied a lot of the world's best in the world of what they do. What is one trait that every great person has in common that you found?

57:35Every great person. I mean, certainly resilience, right? Certainly resilience. There's no, no matter how good you are, like everyone faces some setback that I think they would have considered devastating or unimaginable at some point, and they have to pick themselves back up. And I think that often is because there's something in the process that they love, not only the goal. So I think that's true about every great person. Because I was going to say curiosity, and I think that's about getting curiosity about yourself, about getting better, about getting others. And I think that's very common, but I wouldn't say that's true to every great person.

58:14Resilience though. And I think resilience that includes coming from enjoying some of the process. There's something in the thing that they're doing that they actually like that keeps them coming back even when it seems like the goal isn't making it what would you say is the most devastating thing you've had to overcome in my in my own life i mean it depends when you catch me but i mean i in the very beginning of the book i write about something that i thought was like ruined my life at the time, which was I had this freakish injury when I was in eighth grade. Like sports was the center of my life.

58:54I would wake up to watch SportsCenter play twice in a row, right? The same segment twice in a row. And I threw a ball really hard playing in like gym class football as hard as I could. We'd throw for kickoff at the time instead of kicking. Yeah. And my arm snapped in a spiral on the throw and incredibly rare injury. I've only ever seen this once before, one other time with a major league pitcher and he had to have his arm amputated. Like the arm, what do you mean it snapped? Totally snapped, bone clean through. What? Right side. Oh my gosh. And I don't remember the exact moment because I must have got days on child.

59:31I wake up seeing stars, right? Everyone's like, ah, your arm couldn't have broken. Nobody hit you. I knew like someone was wrong, nauseous. Right. Take me to the hospital, lay me on x-ray table and they say, I'm laying on my back. I'm like nauseous. They say, put your hand up, you know, and I said, I did put your hand up like I did. And then I looked down and I felt like my hand was here and it turned out it's because it was totally separated. So I turned my shoulder. And so my brain thought my hand was up here. It was still I had to have a strap to my body and everything. So, oh, my gosh, I that was the I couldn't play contact sports for a year.

1:00:04You know, couldn't wear shorts and shirts normally. I was like, this is the end of my life. It ended up being this massive blessing in disguise. Really? I mean, that's kind of what I write about. So I was taking French in middle school at the time. And we had these tests where you had to listen to a recording and there were blanks and you had to write in the blank word. You had to hear the audio and fill in the blank with the right word that you heard. And when I did this, I didn't have my writing arm. I started realizing I had to memorize them and then go back and write them all because I wasn't fast enough to keep up with my left hand.

1:00:39And I started using mnemonic devices. like relating them to things in sports usually that would help me remember. And I was doing better than I'd ever done. I use mnemonic devices for everything now. Like I memorize an hour long keynote talk using mnemonic devices. And like people think I have a photographic memory when I finish a talk. And I'm like, if I put my keys down and spin in a circle, I lose them. But it's not a photographic memory, but I use these mnemonic devices. Years later, I learned that probably the most famous study ever done of memory improvement involved taking a student at Carnegie Mellon University who could only memorize seven digits and getting him up to 80 digits using sports-related mnemonic devices.

1:01:17Really? Right? So it's that constraint forced me to... It also got me into running because I couldn't do contact sports. I ended up becoming a Division I, like, all-east runner. And so something that I thought was devastating, it was devastating at the time, in the long run, paid these incredible dividends. Wow. I bet another one more recently. It's still... It's always gone like this, so it tilts inward like this. So that was the end of baseball at the time had been my best sport. And that was, I still played a little in high school, but I could never throw the same way again. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I've had one more recently.

1:01:51I developed these that runs inside of my family, these kind of migraines that will affect my vision sometimes. And the first sign I'll get is this disturbance in my vision, basically. And then you get this like blinding headache once it goes away. And I didn't start getting these until the last few years. And they seem to be very sleep related to me. And so I got super, and it's like, when it happens, you can't work, you can't see, right?

1:02:20Lewis Howes:So it's like a headache or a migraine? First you get this visual disturbance. And then the visual disturbance expands through my visual field. And then when it disappears, I get the terrible headache. And it's really bad. And even before the headache comes, you can't work because you can't see right. and so it forced me and since i other people in my family had had these it forced me to get like fanatical about my circadian rhythm right so i was like i need to get active and wake up and get my body clock so that i'm asleep and awake basically same time every day i started going this sounds stupid i started going to sleep in workout clothes because i want to be moving first thing in the morning and that sounds dumb but if you wake up in workout clothes at least for me my brain goes am I really going to change out of these to get the pajamas or am I going to go work out?

1:03:07Interesting. And so now I'm always working out. I was more of a night owl. Now I'm, I haven't used an alarm in a year. Um, workout clothes, waking up first thing in the morning. Um, so since, since I'm on East coast time, I was outside today at two 30 AM running. Oh, but it's five 30 AM for me for my time. And you know, in the winter I'll use like a sun lamp if I have to in the morning, if it's not light enough. and I have my phone and automation on my phone that turns it totally red at 8 p.m. So I just got super serious about my circadian rhythm and my energy overall has just never been, I was doing it to try to get rid of these migraines, but I've never felt as energetic.

1:03:46Like I just, I thought napping was normal a lot of days. Don't nap, don't use an alarm clock, more energy, better mood, more patient. Wow. So it forced me, it was really difficult. Like it really impaired my work for a while. It impaired everything. Your relationships, everything. Everything, everything. But it did force me to get fanatical about my circadian rhythm. And I'm, and I'm now wish I had just done that years ago. It was separate from this. Wow. That's interesting. I mean, what are these mnemonic, what is this? Mnemonic devices. It's like memory techniques where you, you relate something to something else that helps you remember it.

1:04:24So the simplest ones would be things like an acronym, right? But in cases of the numbers, this guy in the study, he was a runner, and so he would relate it, oh, that's kind of like a fast mile time. So what you want to do is, so that you're not remembering every digit, you're remembering groups of numbers. Batching numbers. Yeah. And some people know if they hear of memory palace, which is this technique that's different kind of mnemonics. Can you number whatever in your mind? Yeah. So you have a visualized space, and you attach certain memories to certain sparks.

1:04:54Lewis Howes:I tried that, but it hasn't worked for me that well. you know it's like maybe i haven't priced it enough but i tried it once i was like oh man that's tough too but yeah you gotta do it you gotta do it a few times but i got clever with mnemonics and i bet you would be really good with sports related mnemonics too

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1:07:14Lewis Howes:Shop cameras, doorbells, and more right now at ring.com. So give me an example of a sports-related mnemonic that you would do to learn a speech of yours or something, to memorize something. Well, I mean, that thing that I told you before where I was like, you asked their tips. I said BCS press release, right? I think of it as like bowl championship series, a press release, but it's just letters that relate to something that I can easily remember, but it's another acronym like that. Interesting. But when I'm doing my talks, I'm often not necessarily using sports-related mnemonics. I'm kind of using other stuff that I attach it to.

1:07:46Anything that's really salient in your brain. Sometimes people use really weird or really dirty images because they're easy to remember. Yeah.

1:07:54Lewis Howes:Interesting. I'm fascinated by the book, man. This is really cool, David. It's called Inside the Box, How Constraints Make Us Better. Make sure you guys grab a copy. Really inspiring work. and hopefully your next book, you can do it in six months. We can see those constraints in real time. That'd be cool. But make sure you get a copy of the book Inside the Box, How Constraints Make Us Better. And again, I think a lot of people want to have more options, more freedom, more flexibility. And I think when you create these constraints, you can actually have more flexibility within those constraints, which will make you better.

1:08:29Absolutely.

1:08:30Lewis Howes:A couple of final questions for you. I want people to follow you, davidepstein.com and also social media. You're doing a lot more video now, which is cool with David Epstein. So make sure you guys check out your video content. I really love the way you're editing it as well. And you've got a newsletter as well on your website, correct? Where people can get more up-to-date information on this stuff. I also recommend Range, the other book, which is really inspiring, especially for parents. But this question, I don't know if I asked you this before, but I'll ask it again just in case. It's called The Three Truths.

1:09:00Lewis Howes:So imagine hypothetically, you get to live as long as you want, but then it's the last day on earth for you. And you get to accomplish all these things you want to create and it all comes to fruition. But on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you, all of your books, all of your content, videos, messages that have been in the world. They have to go somewhere else. We don't have access to them. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you would leave behind to the world from all the things you've learned. What would those three truths be for you?

1:09:31Lewis Howes:specific from my work? Just from your life. It could be anything from work, from personal lessons you have.

1:09:45I think the first, and obviously this is very topical for me, is that optionality is overrated. I think to a certain extent, preserving optionality has almost become like religious zealotry. I will hear people make decisions, say, well, I'll go with the one that preserves optionality. That is just putting off making priorities. And so I think that we need to be careful about that in a world of so many options. The other, and this gets to that study I mentioned that I write about, the Harvard Study of Adult Development. If I had to summarize that study in a sentence taking from the study director, It's happiness is love.

1:10:29Your relationships ultimately are the thing that provide lasting satisfaction. Real world relationships where you have obligations to other people, a dense network of reciprocal obligation where people have obligations to you, you have obligations to them is what provides long lasting meaning. And I think that can be tough when we have so many goals and so many things to do. We don't schedule that kind of stuff, even though it's as important. So I think scheduling it is really, really important. And I think the last one that I would leave that again is very salient to me now because of the things I've been writing is that monotasking is a superpower.

1:11:12Multitasking is not exactly possible. Like you can talk and walk at the same time. But things that involve cognitive engagement, like switching from email and things, you can't actually do it. Your brain has to drop some set of rules and activate another one. And what's really kind of scary is that we now know that the more times you switch a day, the higher your stress will be. And there's even some evidence that it alters your immune function. So can I actually add on to this, the scariest research from the book, I thought? And this woman, Gloria Mark, who found that we become accustomed from all these notifications and everything, distractions all day, whether it's people notifications, we become accustomed to a certain level of distraction.

1:11:53And then if you say, now I'm going to put my phone away and focus, you can't, you will self-interrupt with intrusive thoughts at the cadence to which you've become accustomed. Really? Yes. It's almost like waiting for it to happen. It's like we have some distraction barometer. So if you say, now I'm going to focus, you won't be able to. So you actually have to train your focus by making blocks of work where you're not flipping between things all day. The evidence for the fact that this constant toggling makes people miserable is eye-opening. And so I think there are a lot of things that are important for human well-being, but I think this is one of the most overlooked.

1:12:33So that's why I'd want to leave that, because I think it's something that I can uniquely trumpet that isn't trumpeted as much, that it makes you less happy to be toggling. It doesn't mean you can't do these things. Monotask them one at a time, and you'll be happier.

1:12:51Lewis Howes:is there anything else you feel like we haven't covered that people should really understand to make them better i mean i think we're just talking there about structuring your attention span which i think is in training your attention span and when you do need to focus related to that point i was making there are now studies showing that if you have a phone visible it you'll do worse on cognitive tests if it's visible even if you can't use it and the more phone dependent you are the uh greater that deficit is so sometimes you really need to focus put it put it out of the room yeah um i think we should add certain types of constraints in your life where you use if something's important for you in work you schedule it but if something's important in your personal life outside of vacation you don't schedule it so i think we should add those those schedule those deadlines for personal things too as if those things are as important as our work which they are, but we just don't add deadlines for them, right?

1:13:48Or regular cadences or habits and things like that. I think that's really important to structure our personal life, the way we structure other things that we want to get done. Maybe that sounds onerous, but I think it's not. Once you get in the habit, I need to call this person by that date. I need to block time to just be with my kid without any other distraction. Because it doesn't happen, right? If you don't schedule it with all this stuff that everybody has to do.

1:14:14Lewis Howes:That's true. I want to acknowledge you, David, for the constant innovation you have with the research you do to try to help people be better. Because I think a lot of us are struggling, we're confused, and your books and your work definitely gives us more clarity. So I acknowledge you for the constant work you're doing. And hopefully this next time, you'll be able to create some constraints for yourself. I did, just not to the level you're just, you want to push me to the next level. We're both in the business of trying to make ourselves and other people better. Exactly. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

1:14:47my definition of greatness is raising the level of other people who encounter you or your work i think that is a and i think that goes even for solo performers right there could be a solo performer who's a musician and maybe they're working on their own but other people that see that get elevated in a way other musicians that see it get elevated and want to do that and so i think it's and with the things we're both doing i think what we hope is that we're doing something at a certain level both our messages but also the way that we're doing it leads people who want to do things like we do to to see a certain level of quality and say you know i'd like to do that too yeah david

1:15:32Lewis Howes:thanks for being here man appreciate you pleasure i hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

1:16:05Lewis Howes:I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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