The Science of Irresistible Conversations: Michael Bungay Stanier Shares his Secrets EP 1477

28:24You're saying, what was most useful about this conversation? So you are framing this conversation as a useful, valuable conversation, which makes them find it more useful and valuable, which makes them find you more useful and valuable, which strengthens the relationship. Interesting. Yeah. And what is the difference between a keystone conversation versus a normal conversation. Yeah. So this is the heart of this new book, which is like, okay, so we're trying to, you know, our working relationships have such a big impact on our happiness and our success. Yeah, it's true. Spent a lot of time at work.

28:58You spend a lot of time at work. And if you take a moment and you think to, like, one of the hardest working relationships you've had, you know, it's a real struggle. It was a bit miserable for you. And you think of the back and forth of what happened. and then you think of the impact it had on you, it's significant. You hear people talk about it. It's like, I felt distrusted. I opted out. I shrunk. I lost my confidence. I quit my job. Basically, a bad working relationship will shrink you and diminish you. And then when you flip it and you go, tell me about a great working relationship, one where you felt seen and heard, maybe an I-thou relationship, and you imagine, go back to that moment and you imagine the give and the take, and you go, and what impact did that have on you and your work?

29:43They're like, Bansip, you know, I felt bigger. I felt bolder. I felt braver. I took more risks. I brought more of myself. I brought my genius to the table. So it can have such a big difference. And most people go, I'll just cross my fingers and hope for the best. Right. I hope I get lucky. And I hope we can figure it out as we go along and it doesn't get too messy. They're not setting an intention. without preparing for the conversation. Keystone conversation is setting an intention, and it is this. Have a conversation about how we work together before you plunge into the conversation about what you're working on.

30:23And it's hard because we are wired to want to talk about the stuff that needs to get done because it's there, and it's urgent, and it's exciting, and it's bright, and it's important, and it's critical. So we're like, let's just get into it. But if you go, look, let's stop and go, hey, how will we actually work together before we get into it? I mean, before we started filming here, I was like, so Lewis, tell me, you had a really great podcast guest. What happened? You know, what did they do? What did you do? What should I know from that? And when you've had one that I'm sure you haven't had a bad podcast guest, but one that was like slightly lower rated, didn't quite have the magic, what happened?

31:02What was the difference there? And what we're doing is we're creating a contract between like, I want this to be a really great podcast for you and for everybody watching. I'm like, I want them to go, that was amazing. And you want that too. Because you're like, I want all of my episodes to be brilliant. And I'm like, so let's not talk about the content. Let's talk about how you and I are together. That will bring that because work happens through people. And so let's you and me get aligned as to don't do this and do do that and be like this and don't be like that. like when I talk to your team uh because I ask them the same questions as well like so what what makes a really good guest they're like the thing that you and they have always said is like well the more authentic you can be the better that's really helpful there's a sense of kind of vulnerability and sharing and service and I'm like great because at my best I think that's how I try and show up um but that was really helpful to give me full permission around that whereas other people i'm like keep it tidy keep it neat give me the sound bites no no long sentences no random stories no waving your hands around and i'm like okay i can do that as well but i'm like i i i'm like i think i understood the rules so now i'm trying to to allow myself to be the best version of myself i can be for my sake and for your sake and for everybody's sake right so it's really preparing before asking the questions before the keystone conversation correct well the keystone conversation is like, here's five questions that can help you have a conversation about how you work well together.

32:40I got you. Cool. Cause it's, it's, you know, it's one thing to say, you should talk about how you work together before you jump into what you're working on. But most people then go, well, okay, I buy that, but how do I do that? It's like, I've never done that before. And I'm like, well, here are some questions that can help. Sure. Yeah. And I love this when you're like, um, you know, if you're, if you're in an intimate relationship yeah not a working relationship but an intimate relationship i think that's you know you have one of these questions which is the the good date question what can you learn from successful past relationships versus what can you learn from frustrating past relationships i think that's kind of interesting to ask in intimacy exactly as well like what was the part of your previous relationship that really was great maybe you don't need to go these details of like sexual intimacy.

33:27Yeah, exactly. But what was, you know, too much information. Maybe that you were able to communicate effectively or you guys had calm, you know, resolution when there was conflict or what are the things that you enjoyed that worked really well and what were things that didn't work well? And I think you get a better frame of mind and understanding around, okay, how do we create our own agreement? What are our own boundaries, our agreements into our working or intimate relationship? So I've been with my wife for 30 years, met in... How'd you fool her? I know. She was dazed and confused. But we had both arrived in England to study.

34:03And we had both left pretty bad relationships behind. She was going through a divorce. I'd made a mess of the previous relationship I had, in part because she was in Australia and I was going to Oxford and it was all getting complicated. And we ended up sitting next to each other on a bus from Oxford to Stratford-upon-Avon to go and see some Shakespeare be a play and it's a long and windy road and we'd been dating like maybe two or three dates it's really really early on and we just somehow fell into this conversation about what are we what are we up for like i was 25 she was 36 so we were kind of old enough to go we want to we want to figure this out we we're like it's not we're not kids anymore we've got a bit of experience let's actually try and do this so we actually had this conversation it was like amazing and excruciating at the same time not least because we're in the back of a bus and we're both feeling car sick and maybe other things as well but we're like you know this is what i've learned from um my past relationship like i was saying look here's what i've learned from the relationships that i've screwed up i have a way of disappearing into my own head and taking that other person for granted and she's like great because i will kill you if that happens and i'm like that's really helpful she's like that just won't happen on my watch and that is true very hard to pull that off with with marcella um but we we before we had any of this structure before i'd figured any of this out i just kind of got lucky or maybe desperate because i really fancied her and i'm like i don't want to screw this one up i screwed up the last few i want this to be great we actually had this conversation kind of tapping into the good date and the bad date questions that you're talking about, which is like, what can we learn from the past?

35:49Because both the good and the bad dates, those patterns will repeat. They'll keep showing up again in the future. So why don't you be explicit about it with each other so that you can navigate around it, so you can know where the hotspots are going to be, so you can give yourself the best preparation to say, this is how we can recover from this. This is how we'll repair this. what do you think would be the three questions based on your personal experience and based on everything you've researched and taught in the coaching habit but also how to work with anyone what would be the three questions that every person should ask their partner before getting married to try to set themselves up for a conscious loving relationship knowing that there's going to be, you know, ups and downs in life, but set yourself up for the best possible relationship.

36:39Well, I'm going to take one of the questions from the book, um, which is the fifth question, fifth and final question, which is how will we fix it when things go wrong? The repair question. That's great. And, you know, I just, uh, acknowledge all the work of the great people like Esther Perel and Terry Reel and John Gottman and Dan Siegel, these kind of giants in the world of intimate relationships who really studied this for years. And as I was writing this book and kind of re-immersing myself in all of their material again, two things became really clear. The relationships that last are the ones that get repaired.

37:20And most of us are not very good at repairing relationships you know most of us we break far easier than we think you know we like oh i feel a bit broken a bit betrayed a bit let down and so many of us either do fight or flight or um what's the other one flea you know uh uh terry real freeze yeah terry real said it was um freeze and flee are two options. But the third one that he suggests, which I really like, is fix. Fight, flight, fix. Interesting. Which is kind of moving into rescuer mode. Right. Like if you know the drama triangle, which comes from a psychologist called Stephen Karpman, he's like, when relationships get dysfunctional, three roles play out.

38:08There's the victim, there's the persecutor, and there's the rescuer. And they're all equally dysfunctional. rescuer sounds better than victim and persecutor just as screwed up as the other two yeah and they're all uh reactive ways of behaving and they keep the relationship stuck in dysfunction wow and in fight and flight and fic you actually have the brain description of those three roles so i reckon interesting because when you when you're like in the first two years of marriage, really, in all the years leading up to it. It's like, this is amazing. She's amazing. I'm amazing. We're amazing. This is any kind of hiccups.

38:50They're like, my staff, we get over that because everything else is going on for us. It's fantastic. But after two years, it's like, okay, the veil drops a little bit. You kind of get clear on other things. And it will go off the rails somewhere. It might be an explosion. It might be a dent or a crack or a bend or something. but something will happen. So I would say, I wish I'd asked this question because I didn't. How will we fix it when things go wrong? How will we fight? How will we fight in a way that will not break us, but will kind of be a source of learning and growth and clearing and kind of resetting?

39:34Yeah. I think my friend Jay Shetty talked about this in his recent book, where it was about the success of a relationship is in how well you fight and how successful you can fight together. I think so. Yeah. And not hurt each other too far beyond repair, which is the repair question. How will you fix it when things go wrong? And I think it's death by a thousand paper cuts. Like the number where you hurt someone little by little, it's just like, I just don't care anymore. If you don't learn to repair it. I think that's key in intimate relationships, family relationships, friendships, career, is like repairing these things when you maybe feel like there was something that wasn't good.

40:16But I think the challenge is asking this repair question, how will you fix it when things go wrong? It might be easy to say, oh, when things go wrong, I'm going to be fine. I'm going to apologize. I'm going to do all these things. But then when that time comes two years later, you're like, screw you. You're horrible. And I'm not talking to you for a week. You may not remember what you said. You probably won't. But that's not the magic of that question. The magic of that question is it says things will go wrong. It's an acknowledgement that the honeymoon moment is going to pass and that things will get hard and you get a chance to revisit it.

40:57So I think getting people's best guesses about how they're going to fix it when they go wrong, that's helpful. And if they can pull some of that off, then everybody benefits. But what I think is the real hidden power of that question is it says it will go wrong. And we're acknowledging that now. and when we say how will we fix it when things go wrong, we're acknowledging a shared commitment to wanting to fix it and when it does go wrong, it's something that you can say is going wrong. Right, right. We can actually talk about it going wrong because it's been raised before. Yeah. And I think it's that permission and shared commitment that actually can be part of the real magic of that question.

41:41Yeah, and maybe you can say like it's not going wrong, we're just not in alignment or something is off or whatever might be happening. And I think this is one of the reasons why I really love hearing stories about world-class athletes, Navy SEALs, MMA fighters. Right. Because they talk about preparing for challenging situations and how am I going to get out of the challenging situation? You know, usually as an athlete, it's more of a solo sport or a team sport, but, you know, the MMA fighter doesn't just train standing on his feet, punching when he's healthy. Right. And in the best position. Right.

42:20He trains upside down. Right. With his neck against the cage. Yeah. With one arm behind his back. Getting punched in the face over and over again. Now solve this. Saying, how do I get out of this? Right, exactly. He doesn't say, I'll be fine. I'll never be in this situation. And it's like same thing with Navy SEALs. They train for, okay, here's the mission and here's the best case scenarios. Like this is the plan. Yeah. But what is the backup plan when everything goes wrong? Right, right. When this person gets hurt, when this doesn't work out, then what do we do? And I think when we prepare and acknowledge something's going to go wrong, we're not going to go 100 % according to plan in intimacy, in career, in relationships, what can I do and take ownership of to be responsible for my part?

43:05And how can I get back into alignment? And I think that's a powerful thing with this question, the repair question. Yeah. To your point, there's that quote, maybe from the seals. I know Jane's clear, I think it was it as well. She's like, we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our training or the level of our systems. The level of our habits. Yeah. So there's variations on it, but it's like you prepare for them for the the mess of it um but for me just the permission like i didn't have this conversation with my wife and i kind of wish i had because we didn't we we don't really have blow up fights we have kind of separating moments where i'm like i get into my own head i take her for granted we do that and i'm like how do we fix that when that's happening yes and that would have been a healthier conversation we figured this out but that would have been a healthier conversation earlier if we could have got to that.

43:58Sure. What question would you add? Like, I've given one question, but what's the question that's at your heart in terms of setting up intimate relationships for success? I'm just trying to think about all the things that I did with Martha, my girlfriend, which is essentially the opposite of everything I've ever done before. The thing, and listen, we're two years in, so I'm not in a 30-year marriage, so I'm, you know, sharing that information. because people might say, well, wait till five years, wait till 10 years, all these things. But the thing that really made me say, oh, this is, this is my partner, right?

44:36And I can really feel safe, emotionally, spiritually, physically safe with this person. It's early on. I said, listen, um, I've made a lot of mistakes in my past relationships. Um, and none of my past relationships have worked. But in each one of them, I wanted to do therapy when they weren't working. And the partners that I chose never wanted to do therapy with me. They were resistant. It took a year and a half, two years of it not working and me saying, hey, can we do this and find support? And they never wanted to do it. And I said, listen, this isn't really an ultimatum, But I want to feel emotionally safe.

45:19Would you be open to going to therapy in the beginning of the relationship? Not when things have problems in the future, but can we go together now? Yeah. She was like, 100%. That'd be amazing. I'm down for whatever. She was like, I've always wanted to do that too. Yeah. I felt like, okay, just her acknowledging that. Yeah. And then us doing it has been a beautiful foundational process of a safe space to talk about maybe touchy or uncomfortable conversations to create boundaries, agreements, and commitments, which has not removed all friction or conflict, but has removed a lot of it and given us a lot more grace and flexibility and freedom to have courage to communicate when there's something that, ah, that didn't feel right.

46:13Let's talk about it. Yeah. And that was a beautiful thing, just asking that question. So I don't know what that question is. It's not the therapy question, but it's more like, hey, are you open to having outside support and having these conversations? Yeah, it's really powerful. And so for me, that was a beautiful conversation. Well, you know, the question it relates to in the book is the bad day question. The bad day question. Which is, what can we learn from frustrating past relationships? and it's like and this these are my words not yours lewis but it's like when the relationship was hard i didn't feel like i had the support i needed and i didn't feel the other person was as committed to repair or fixing it than i was and that's what i really want in this and you know there's a there's a definition of of like an adult to adult relationship and that relation adult to adult relationship is being able to ask for what you want knowing that the answer might be no you know you don't get always get what you want but being able to ask for what you want is a really rare thing and a really powerful thing and you know you know it just feels like from your story it's like what i've learned is i've figured out what i want and i've got the courage to ask for what i want and that made all the difference and the courage to walk away you know the steady question what are your practices and preferences you know i was very clear with her in the beginning of us dating, really in the first couple of days of meeting each other, I said, this is who I am.

47:46This is my vision. This is where I'm heading. This is what I will be doing and this is what I will not be doing. And I will not be living this type of relationship or this type of life. If you want to put me into some stereotypical box of certain relationships, that's not me. That doesn't mean I'm going to be out of alignment with a monogamous relationship, but I'm a driven human being. I'm running this business. I've got a vision that is going to take a certain amount of energy and effort. And she asked me a question early on, which essentially is, what are your preferences questions? She said, what are your priorities?

48:23Yeah. And I never had the courage before to be honest with my priorities. Now this may evolve over time, anything else. But I said, listen, no woman wants to hear what I'm going to tell you. Are you sure you want the answer? Are you sure you want the truth? It was kind of like my Tom Cruise moment. You can't handle the truth, right? And I said, are you sure you want me to tell you the truth? She said, yes. And I said, I don't think you're going to want to hang out with me after you hear this. Because no one in the past was able to handle it, was able to receive it. And so she said, yes. And I said, okay, well, it's been good knowing you but here are my priorities good for you i said my a brave moment right and i was like but i wasn't willing to risk i wasn't willing to um abandon myself anymore which is what i had always done i'd abandoned yeah to make someone else feel okay or safe or secure or whatever as opposed to just this is who i am it made the means we're not the right fit for each other right we're not the right match for this type of relationship let me show you my cards yeah and let's see how this goes but i always lacked that emotional courage because i was afraid of hurting people.

49:32And I said, my priorities, my number one priority is my health. And no woman wants to hear that they're not the number one priority in a relationship with an intimate partner, really. They don't like that, most of them at least. And I said, my number two priority is not you or the relationship either. And no one wants to hear they're not number one or number two. Please number two. Exactly. At least give me a silver medal, man. Exactly. No, I said my intimate relationship will be my third priority. Now let me give context because I need my health to be a top priority so that I have more energy, focus, and value to you and to my second priority.

50:13It's that kind of foundational thing that allows everything else to be built, relationships and business. And to my second priority, which is my vision, my mission to serve people. And if you hold me back from my health and I feel unhealthy, I'm not going to be good for you. If you hold me back from my purpose and you try to deter me from that, I'm going to be resentful, frustrated, like antsy. But if you are in alignment that these are my top two priorities, you're going to feel like the number one priority. And so it's creating that context and conversation, just setting the stage and just being like, you can never pull me away from these things unless there's some emergency or whatever, but it can't be this, I don't want you going to the gym.

50:53I don't want you working on your mission. I need you here with me more. And I was like, I'm not that guy. Maybe in 10 years, that'll change. And I will be. But right now, I'm not. What was the work you did that allowed you now to ask for what you want and be as clear as that? I needed to heal a lot of my inner child wounds. Right. Really. and have a different relationship with my younger psychological self that never got to hear or be validated the way that I needed to validate it and never got to heal or mend painful memories. So it wasn't until I was able to mend the memories of the past and create new meaning around them and create a sense of connection and an intimate relationship with my painful wounds of repair, that's when I was like, okay, I am safe.

51:48I am free. I am peaceful as I am. I don't need to please you to feel loved and accepted and free. And I was able to say, okay, I'm happy alone if this relationship doesn't work, but I'm never going to abandon myself again. so that was a big part of it having that healing journey and doing the therapeutic work on that you can go michael stop interviewing me and stop and don't ask me about my partner but i'm i'm curious to know if you were able to ask her what she wanted like what her priorities were yeah i asked her yeah really really early on yeah and she you know one of these this conversation where she asked me about my priorities she was like i was like what do you want what's your vision and what's your vision for intimate relationship, you know, a committed relationship long-term.

52:43Um, I've said this on the show before a few times, but I was like, you know, she said, well, I want to be married and have kids. And that's something that I want and I value. I said, okay, cool. Um, I value that as well, but I can't tell you that in the first couple of weeks that that's going to happen with us. So I need to feel safe. I need to feel time, a foundation. so if you're cool with that knowing that maybe it's a maybe yeah but everything has to work out for me to feel like a yes i can't i can commit right now yeah and um another thing was also i said i'm not going to be sharing things uh with what i think is not the role and responsibility that i want when we have kids.

53:29And this is the type of partner that I will be and father that I will be. Now, maybe all this changes. And maybe when I have kids and all these things, my role and responsibility, I'll be more flexible or I'll change or whatever. But I'm telling you, this is where I'm going to be. This is what I will do really well. And this is what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do these roles and responsibilities as a father. Now, I'm going to be fully present, fully committed, fully in all these things, but I'm just not going to do certain things that maybe is in society looked at as what's supposed to happen.

54:07And if you're cool with that, then I feel more seen, safe, and valued. And she was like, a hundred percent, I'm cool with that. It works for me. So it was just being clear about the future and really having conversations about money, intimacy, kids, all these different things early on and not guessing that they were thinking something right because it's so easy to make up what they believe like you kind of no idea the clues no you kind of have your own confirmation bias you have your own secret hopes and wishes which you then project onto them yeah and mostly you're like you just you just don't know yeah like one of the great surprises to me and that has been kind of foundational to our relationship with marcella me and marcella working is that like i like the spotlight like i like the spotlight i like performing i like being a leader i like having a vision uh-huh she really doesn't like that but she loves playing the support role and and what that meant is that it helped us negotiate kind of our our careers about how we would manage that together and rather than me going oh i feel bad about this because i'm probably stepping on her toes and i probably need to shrink to allow her to space we're like no we just figured it out that i'm like this is my job is to be the visionary and to try and change the world and kind of that's a big area of conflict for i think couples where you know if you don't feel like you can fully be who you're meant to be yeah or if someone's resentful of your success i had that in a lot of previous relationships where i felt like i would share something i was working on i'm really excited about and it was almost like they'd get sad because they weren't doing that yeah for themselves so um john gotman who i mentioned earlier on who wrote a fantastic book about the secrets of successful marriage.

55:54But one of the intriguing things that he found through his research is 70 % of issues in a relationship are perpetual. They don't get solved. And that for me is a very liberating discovery because it means that there's a bunch of things where we're like, we will perpetually be at odds around this. So what we're now doing is we're learning how to navigate our different points of view and our different ways of working around that. So that helps me figure out how to manage the 70 % that are perpetual. They're never going to change. But it says 30 % of issues within a relationship are solvable and resolvable and evolvable.

56:36And there's ability to work on that. So I get freedom from both of those things, which is like, it's kind of like that circle about what can you control and what can you influence. You're like, I can't control or influence these, but I can kind of figure out how to dance together around the stuff we're never going to agree on. Like my wife and I, I'm like, she's a talker. She loves to talk. She loves to share that. I'm terrible at that, which surprises everybody because they know me as a kind of talker. But I'm like, oh, my God. She's like, what are you thinking? I'm like, oh, what am I thinking?

57:07She's like, what happened to that? I'm like, oh, what did happen today? Oh, it's in LA. Oh, it's with Lewis. Yeah, it's like, I'll remember that. And we're like, I don't think that's going to change. So we now have our language and we have our humor and we have our way of dealing with that when I do my best to tell her stuff and she does her best not to grill me. And then 30 % of the stuff we can really kind of dig into and go, let's make this better because we're both committed to a great long-term relationship. I'm curious, what do you think are the, the four or five key habits of magnetic individuals who can communicate clearly and get incredible results from conversations and relationships, whether they're introverted or extroverted, what are those four key habits that make them magnetic and enrolling and captivating to get things done no matter what personality type they have?

58:07I think one of the key habits, and we've talked about this already, is knowing what you want, knowing what you want to ask for. And that immediately makes you quite different from other people because a lot of people are in a conversation and they're communicating, but I'm like, but where are we, what's the point? And if you can get really clear on the request you have and the hope you have as an outcome, that is an extremely charismatic and powerful place to stand. And how would you set that up? Is that like the intention behind it or saying it right away? Is it like knowing what you want in your mind, but not saying it or saying, this is what I want?

58:48The hard work is to know what you want. Then you negotiate and you navigate the moment in front of you and the person. Like you've got to play the person, not just the cards in your hand. What's helpful for me is to tease apart in any conversation, not just what do I want, but what are the facts and what is the feelings and what are the interpretation of the facts. And I think people who are charismatic in how they communicate often have an ability of not getting all that sort of stuff squished together, which is what happens to most of us. So I know that for me to be in conversation with you, and if I'm trying to move something forward or change something, it's really helpful for me to know the data and the facts of the situation.

59:39What's amazing is that there's almost always very little data. Most of what we're experiencing about a situation is this combination of our feelings and our judgments. And most of what knocks us off of being magnetic and being charismatic and kind of being compelling like that is the fuzziness of some of our judgments and our feelings in terms of actually how we then communicate. So I'm always going, okay, what are the facts? I need to know those. What feeling and judgment combination is most powerful for me to express that serves me and them and the situation? because a lot of my judgments aren't that helpful.

1:00:18Often my judgments are like, I'm a loser. This is a disaster. Why am I here? I should never have signed up for this. This is going south. This is never going to get anywhere. I mean, all of that sort of negative self-talk going on. But if I'm like, you know, giving somebody feedback, perhaps, I'm like, look, I'm frustrated because I'm not sure you understand how important this is. That's a feeling and judgment combination. Really helpful. Particularly when I go, see, here's what I want. like I'm sad because it feels like we're stuck and I'm not quite sure how we're going to get out of this so what I'm what I what I want is for us to go see a therapist together to get support to work through this sort of stuff and this idea of going how do you learn how to add the the depth of feeling and emotion to owning your judgments to asking for what you want can be a really compelling way of actually communicating in a way that feels magnetic and authentic and grounded and human.

1:01:17Wow. Okay. What's the next habit? Some of this is self-management. And this got taught to me by a friend of mine called Mark Bowden. He runs a company called Truth Plane. He's a fantastic TEDx talk on this as well. And particularly if you're in front of a crowd, how you use your body and how you use your hands in particular is a very influential way on how the the the crowd will feel feel about you so the language he gives me is be the strongest signal in the room because the crowd will respond to the strongest signal in the room they will feel what you feel they will be who you want to be so I'm like great so how do I want my my audience to feel and you know often for me i'm i want them to feel encouraged and to feel loved and feel awesome and feel light like a playfulness so i'm thinking about that in terms of what i am bringing to to my presence and then what mark taught me was these three different positions you can use to communicate and it's about where you put your hands particularly in front of a stage and the the the critical one is the truth plane and he calls that it's like keep your hands at your belly button level because actually that is the most vulnerable expression you can have because you're basically saying look at me this is my weak spot my belly's my weak spot i'm showing it to you and this is because the body leads the brain so the brain goes the body goes if you're showing him that your most vulnerable spot you must feel safe and you must feel confident and you must feel relaxed.

1:02:55And that makes you feel safe and confident and relaxed. And because you're the strongest signal in the room, the audience feels safe and confident and relaxed. And then if I want to shift the energy in the room, I'll just lift my hands up. So you can see that just by going like this, even though I haven't changed the content at all, actually the experience has actually shifted a little bit. And if I really want to make a point, I'll lift my hands right up here. And everybody's like, I don't know why I'm feeling so good right now, but for some reason I'm feeling good right here. I'm like, I'm just saying the same stuff, but I've just lifted my hands up.

1:03:26But now I'm down here, suddenly we've become a little more intimate and a little more vulnerable and a little more human around that. So for me, this is stagecraft, which is like in these subtle ways, you prime an audience to respond to the strongest signal in the room, which means you have to get your signal clear. which means you have to have an intention about how you want the audience to feel and you have to have the movement on stage to actually reflect that. That's a good idea, yeah. And then there's a third thing I might add. So there's something really powerful about priming. So see how you're nodding your head right there?

1:04:09That's a classic priming move. So if I go, Lewis, look, I'm about to tell you something here and you're going to really love this. What's happening is you're nodding your head. People at home are nodding their head as well. They're like, I don't even, why am I doing this? Why am I, why am I, I already love this and he hasn't even told me. And there's a way that you can use language to help your audience understand and appreciate what's about to happen. How? This is going to be fantastic. I think you're going to really like what I'm about to tell you now. That's it. That's me priming. The audience doesn't even hear it, but I'm just giving them a chance to get their brain to be ready and to hear it in an open-hearted, open-minded way.

1:04:47It's like, this might be the best thing I've got to tell you all day. Right. The second thing is going to be fantastic. What is it? This second thing is going to be fantastic. And, you know, it's this fine line between, like, I am manipulating an audience when I'm doing this. I'm working really hard to give them the very best chance to get the very most out of what I've got to share with them so that they feel present and served and I've done my best contribution to them and I'm doing all of that to kind of be an act of service and you know all of these things can be used for evil as well so you're like it's your intention is significant in this right okay I love these habits so far would there be one more habit that would make someone a magnetic like communicator and roller and force for good?

1:05:34Well, here's my preference, Lewis, and this is a bit kind of off the path, but when I am working with, if I'm presenting or running a workshop or speaking to a large crowd, I spend a lot of time getting the audience to speak to itself. How do you do that? I say, turn to the person next to you. Like, this is how I started, This is how I start a keynote. I asked them some check-in questions. I go, first of all, on a scale of one to seven, how active do you plan to be with me over the next 90 minutes? They're like, oh. I'm like, I don't mind what number you can choose. You're an adult. I'm not bullying you into a seven.

1:06:18One is, I'm right at the back. I'm planning on having a nap. I'm hoping to get my pulse rate down into the low 30s. I didn't even want to be here. Seven is like, I'm stoked to be here. I'm so excited. This is the talk I've been here. You're like, fantastic. And then my second question is, I score one to seven. How much risk do you will take with me over the next 90 minutes? I don't mind what it is. You choose. But one is no risk at all. I'm hoping to think nothing new, learn nothing new, meet anybody new. I'm hoping this whole thing doesn't affect me at all. Seven, on the other hand, is like, you know, I have poor personal boundaries.

1:06:50You know, I'm going to talk about the incident from my child. I'm talking about my inner child's wounds and how that still makes me cry. When we do the naked thing, I'm going to be taking all my clothes off. That's a seven. everybody laughs. If you can get an audience to laugh early on, they form as a group and they like you more, they feel safer. That's great. And then the third question I ask is, a scale of one to seven, how much do you care about the experience of the other people in the room with you here? One is, I hate these people. This is a nightmare. I'm at this greatness conference and I'm trapped.

1:07:22I don't even like any of these people. I thought this was an automobile conference. I don't know what I'm doing here. Seven on the other hand is like, I love these people. These are my people. I'll do what I can to contribute to the group. So I'm inviting people to show up. In some ways, it's a version of how to work with almost anyone, which is like, let's have a conversation about how we be together before we get into the work. That's cool. And I'm priming them to kind of go, look, I'm making a decision on how I'm showing up. I'm making a decision on how much risk I'm taking. I'm making a decision about how I contribute.

1:07:56because they hadn't really thought of it before they sat down. They were just there because it said, be in this room at nine o 'clock for the opening keynote. And they're kind of in passive recipient mode. Yeah. And then I'm like, now get up and go and find a partner. And I'll often ask one or two questions. It's like, talk about the high point of the week for you. Person with the longest hair goes first. Give them really clear certainty about who goes first. And the buzz in the room lifts because everyone's talking about a high point. It's an I-thou conversation right there. And so far, I've taught no content.

1:08:31We're now 10 to 15 minutes into a 90-minute speech. So I've given up a lot of time. But you've built connection. But I've built connection. I've given the audience autonomy. I've given them a sense of being seen and heard. They've often met somebody new that they haven't met before. And they think I'm brilliant. And you haven't done anything. Well, I have. You haven't said anything. I've got out of the spotlight and I said, let me put the spotlight on you to remind you how great you are. So you can see how this is a scaled up version of what we were saying earlier on about how coaching shifts the conversation from me having the authority to having you picking some stuff out and giving you the authority.

1:09:14That's powerful. I'm constantly going, how do I hand authority and power to other people? Not least because, you know, I'm a straight, white, best-selling author, road scholar, tall, devastatingly handsome, blah, blah. I've got all the kind of the cards of power and privilege. So my job is to go, how much can I give away how quickly so that I can invite other people into that to have some of that because I've got a lot of that I can give away without diminishing who I am that's really smart and a good habit to do because I I learned early on not by choice but because well I guess kind of by choice I didn't have any other choice that when I was early on going to conferences and events and networking outings, I didn't think I was smart or intelligent or had anything to offer.

1:10:15I didn't think I had any skills. I didn't think I, I didn't have the confidence to actually like tell my own story, none of that stuff. And so I got really good at just asking other people questions and kept following up the next question and never saying anything about myself. And by the end of the night, people were like introducing me to everyone, like this is the most interesting guy here and I didn't say anything. I mean, I said questions, but I didn't talk about me. You were interested in them, which makes you interesting to them. Exactly. The most interested person in the room becomes the most interesting.

1:10:46I think so. When you become interested in your audience, having value, connecting, feeling great, you become more interesting to them and they are more likely to listen to you. Exactly. I think that's a powerful habit in really connecting deeper and allowing yourself to work with almost anyone, people who are willing to participate actively in that. And that's a lot about what your book is about, how to work with almost anyone, which is the five questions we were just going over for building the best possible relationships. And as you know, and as our audience knows that the quality of our life is directly related to the quality of our relationships, the conversations, the emotions, the feelings, the experiences you have in those relationships.

1:11:32And that's why this is all about having deeper, better, more fulfilling relationships. And so your book covers that. Also the coaching habit, which is sold over a million copies, helps people have better conversations and, and just have more tools and skills for learning how to connect better with people of all walks of life. I want people to make sure they get the books. Uh, we'll link it all up. What, what else is, uh, are we missing here? Is there anything else that people need to know or hear to support them and deepening their relationships, accelerating their life in a positive way and having everything they want?

1:12:11Well, I'm going to say two things. One is a bit more tactical, which is around, well, what is the best possible relationship? And we've kind of covered it, but just want to nail it for people. It has three elements. It needs to be safe, which you've talked a lot about and the importance of that. It needs to be vital, which means it needs to have life, and it needs to be repairable. So safe and repairable, I think we've talked about, but I just want to point out that psychological safety is so important, but I don't want a relationship that's just psychologically safe. I want a relationship where I can also be psychologically brave, and that's the vitality.

1:12:47And in any relationship, you know, you with your partner, me with my partner, me with the people who run my companies. I'm trying to build our version of a relationship that is safe and vital and repairable. And they're different with each relationship because it's a unique relationship, but I want that right combination. So that's kind of a tactical level. And then if I was to ask anything of this audience, it would be to be the people who are brave enough to start this. We've talked a few times about the power of reaching out. Somebody said the other day to me, nobody likes to be the first person to say hello.

1:13:24Everybody loves to be greeted. And one of the responses people have to this idea of having a keystone conversation, a conversation about how we work together, not what we're working on, is like, that feels like it's going to be a bit awkward. Like it probably will be a bit awkward. It's like, you don't have a role model, you probably haven't experienced it before. but to be the person who is brave enough to say, hey, before we get into it, or we've been in it for a while, but let's just take a beat and actually stop and look across the table at each other like we're doing and go, how can we work better together for our sakes, for our happiness, but also for the success of the work we're doing?

1:14:03What would that be like? And so what I hope is people have the bravery to kind of reach out. That's beautiful. And we'll make the call to actually to people right now, my friend Jesse Itzler says every day he reaches out to three people in his life and ask them interesting questions and gets them to open up. And so I would say to everyone listening or watching, um, you know, to reach out to at least one person a day, send them a text, ask them one of these questions, check in on them, see how they're doing. And let me know in the comments if they, uh, if they reply and what sparks from you reaching out and have that courage and that bravery.

1:14:37I'm excited to dig into the comments and see what happens from this. I think some magic's about to happen. Exactly. Michael, again, I want to make sure people get the book, How to Work with Almost Anyone. Make sure you guys take a look at this, get a copy of that and the coaching habit. You're at mbs.works, mbs underscore works on Instagram and all over the place on social media. We'll have all this linked up. You guys can go to Amazon and get the books as well and see everything there. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations, it's called the three truths. Yeah. So imagine you get to live as long as you want and accomplish and experience all that you want.

1:15:15But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you on earth. Okay. Many years away. Yeah. And for whatever reason, this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. Yeah. So no one has access to this conversation. Right. Any book you've ever written or will create. Yeah. It all goes somewhere else. Yeah. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, Three things you know to be true from all your experiences that you would want to share as lessons for others. Such a good question. What would those three lessons be for you? The three lessons for me would be stay curious longer.

1:15:52Because magic starts to unlock when you can stay curious longer. You see something new in the people you're curious with. You see the world differently when you're curious. the second lesson would be we unlock our greatness by working on the hard things so i think there's probably a thing that that resonates loudly here but it's like you know having the courage to step out to what i would call a worthy goal something that's thrilling and important and daunting is not only about doing the work but it's about cracking you open so that future you can call you forth. There's a future version of you, which is the next level of you.

1:16:34And when you do the hard things, that's what opens you up and allows that next best version to be called forth. And I think the third truth, which we've talked about a little bit in the last segment, was to say, be the person who reaches out. Because people are lonely and people welcome somebody who reaches out and says, hey, how are you? How do I help? Yeah, I'm here. That is a powerful gift to give people. That's beautiful. I would acknowledge you, Michael, for your wisdom and your ability to communicate clearly and effectively and be curious enough to ask these questions for yourself on how to be a better communicator, a better friend, a better lover, a better coach, and all these different areas.

1:17:26and taking this information and simplifying it for the rest of us. Because I think a lot of people struggle. They are lonely because they don't have the skills and tools to communicate better. So I acknowledge you for putting this together, creating this work, sharing it with us here, and being of service to humanity. I really appreciate it. Again, I want people to follow you, check out everything. MBS.works is where they can get all your information and all the links to everything, the books. We'll have it all linked up as well. But the final question for you is, what is your definition of greatness?

1:18:01I think it is the fullest expression of the best version in the service of the people that you love. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.

1:18:42I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.