The Secret Skill of People Who Never Feel Lonely | Charles Duhigg

16:41Lewis Howes:Not by having all the answers, but having the right questions built the deepest relationships for me. Not by being the smartest, funniest, best looking or whatever, but by being interested in other people made me more interesting to them. And just being an attentive listener. Like you said, this goes into looping for understanding. I didn't know this was a thing. I was just like, oh, it's working. Let me ask more questions. Yeah. Let me get deeper. The deeper I would ask the question, I really rarely ever ask surface level questions. If it is, it's like I quickly go deep just because I can't stay there.

17:22Lewis Howes:It just doesn't feel right. So the deeper I go into more questions, people feel like, wow, no one's really asked me these things. Right. We must care in a different way. Yeah. They must be curious about me. Wow, that feels good for someone to be interested in what I really think or feel about this situation.

17:41Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

17:41Lewis Howes:And I did it out of necessity, out of survival mechanism, essentially as a kid, but it ended up being a superpower as an interviewer now.

17:54Charles Duhigg:And probably as a human, right? Sure. Yeah. And by the way, the fact that you weren't good at it is something you have in common with most other people who are consistent super communicators. Really? This is one of the reasons we know it's not an inborn characteristic, is because if If you talk to people who are the best communicators and you say, you know, have you always been a great communicator? They'll tell you, no. Like, like I, like as a kid, I felt lonely. I felt like I couldn't connect with people. I felt like I didn't have friends or my first job. They made me a manager and I completely screwed up.

18:24Charles Duhigg:Yeah. The reason they become a super communicator consistently is because they've just thought a little bit harder about it. They usually because they have to, usually because they screwed up and they're like, I don't want to screw up again. And it's just thinking a little bit more about how communication works that allows us to really connect with other people. So how does communication really work? Are there different styles of conversations? Yeah. So this is one of the big insights. And then I want to get back to questions because I think it's really important. One of the big insights from the last decade is that we tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing, right?

18:59Charles Duhigg:We're talking about my book or we're talking about, you know, whether we should send the kids to this school or that school or where we should go on vacation. But if you look at the conversation that happens, the discussion, what you'll see is that there are multiple different kinds of conversations in that same discussion and dialogue. And most of them fall into one of three buckets. There's usually a practical conversation, which is a conversation where we're trying to figure out actually what we want to talk about and how to talk about it. But also maybe we want to like fix a problem or make a plan.

19:29Charles Duhigg:It's practical. It's using the frontal cortex of our brain. there's a second kind of conversation which is an emotional conversation and if i come into you and i'm telling you about where i am emotionally and you suggest a solution to me i'm going to be like people don't like that you're a jerk right like because when you're in having an emotional conversation you want to share how you feel and hear how other people feel you do not want to

19:54Lewis Howes:necessarily solve the problem this is where you hear all the you know the stereotypes of how men in married relationships struggle to relate or connect to their wives because they're more solution oriented. Not everyone, but it's what you hear. The stereotype is they're more trying to fix the problem of an emotional feeling that someone's having versus being comfortable sitting with the discomfort and just saying, I'm here for you. Yeah. Saying, I hear you. Yeah. Right. That's like solving the problem. That's exactly. If men understood that you just doing that is solving the problem and sitting in the uncomfort of that.

20:32Lewis Howes:But that's a hard skill to learn. It's a hard skill to learn. It's a hard skill to learn. And then the third. So that's the second one. The emotional conversation.

20:38Charles Duhigg:So yeah, there's a practical emotional. And the third one is a social conversation. And that's about how you and I see ourselves in respect to society, how we think society sees us, how we get along with other people. And so one of the things that we've found is that exactly what you just said, that what's known as the matching principle within psychology that if I'm having an emotional conversation and you're having a practical conversation, they're both legitimate conversations, but we won't hear each other. Like I'm going to hear, I'm going to say something emotional to you. You're going to try and fix my problem in a practical way.

21:09Charles Duhigg:And I'm going to be like, a, you don't hear me. And B, I don't hear you. Like I'm not paying attention to your solution. It's going to create more miscommunication. So how do you know which one you're in? So through deep questions and, and And what super communicators do is they match the other person and they invite them to match back. And so how do we do that? These deep questions, which is exactly what you just said. A deep question is a question that asks me about my values, my beliefs, or my experiences. And as you mentioned, like a deep question might not seem deep. So if somebody says, what do you do for a living?

21:46Charles Duhigg:Oh, I'm a lawyer. Oh, really? Like, do you love practicing the law? Like, did you always want to be a lawyer? Like what made you decide to go to law school? Those are easy questions to ask, but all three of them are deep questions. Right. Because what I'm asking you is I'm asking you, like, what are the experiences that led you to where you are today? What are your beliefs that motivate going into the law? What are the values that your work means to you? And when you answer that question, you're going to tell me so much about yourself. and then if I'm prepared for this, I can listen. Because if someone says, oh, you know, I went to law school because it was really important to me to have a steady job and I knew lawyers, there's always work for lawyers.

22:27Charles Duhigg:And so I, okay, so this person is in a practical mindset. And if somebody else says, oh, you know, I went to law school because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the underdog. Wow. That's emotional. That's emotional, right? Wow. And so, interesting. So just by, and by the way, the same person might answer that question both ways depending on what mindset how they're feeling at that moment but now i know like oh i can match this person emotionally or i can match this person practically and there's there's a kind of hear it and you can sometimes just ask um in schools they teach teachers that when a student comes up and they're upset they should ask them do you want to be heard do you want to be helped or do you want to be hugged and those are the three kinds of conversations and it just feels yeah small business owners listen up you started

23:24Lewis Howes:your business because you had a vision not because you wanted to spend your nights figuring out payroll benefits paperwork and all the little details that somehow become very big details that's where just works comes in just works is the payroll benefits and global hiring platform to unburden your brain from all the complicated small business stuff. They handle the things you can't afford to get wrong, so you don't have to worry. Because building a business is hard enough. You don't have to worry when it just works. You know how people sometimes invest in something that seems incredible at first, but then it doesn't live up to the hype?

24:04Lewis Howes:Like when everyone was convinced NFTs were the future, and people were buying them for thousands of dollars, and now they barely have any value. Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for numbers that look great, like impressions, but then they don't see revenue. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, you can get the highest ROAS of major ad networks with LinkedIn ads. Cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend$250 and get a$250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash Lewis. Terms apply. Hiring isn't just filling seats. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, they'll help you match with candidates who can actually move your business forward.

24:40Lewis Howes:Target candidates by skills, certifications, or location. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. What do you need? It's essentially, what do you need without saying, what do you need?

25:24Lewis Howes:That's exactly right. You can learn to listen and then ask a deeper question. You'll understand what they need based on these three levels, I guess, of practical, emotional, or social conversation. That's exactly right. And if you have trained yourself to understand how to be a super communicator and practice it, you're going to feel like a hero to everyone you connect with. You're going to feel like, wow, Charles really understands me and really gets it. He's just so easy to talk to every time I talk to him. It's going to make you more likable.

25:53Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

25:53Lewis Howes:More opportunities are probably going to flow your way. You're going to be more top of mind for people in the future when something comes up in a positive way. They're going to come to you. You know, all these different things are going to happen. I guess you're going to have to learn how to create certain boundaries if they're, you know, coming to you too much or using you or whatever it might be. Yeah, but those are good problems to have. Yeah, exactly.

26:14Charles Duhigg:Everyone wants my attention. I'm too popular. Yeah, exactly. And I find that it's also when somebody asks you what you want out of a conversation, it feels really good. Like, I might come home and sometimes I come home and I'm like upset about work and I'm complaining to my wife and she'll say, okay, do you want me to, do you want me to solve this with you or do you want me just to listen? Right. And vent or whatever. Yeah. And until that moment, I didn't know what I wanted. But when she asked the question, I'm like, oh no, I want you to listen. Like I don't want a solution. Like suddenly now I know like, oh, the way I feel better is just by venting.

26:46Lewis Howes:Right. Yeah. Exactly. I can be that way too sometimes. You say in the book that all conversations are negotiations. Can you explain what that means?

26:56Charles Duhigg:So they're what's referred to, particularly at the beginning of a conversation. We usually have what's called a quiet negotiation. And it's important. Oftentimes people hear a negotiation and they think of a negotiation where the goal is to win. A quiet negotiation is very, very different. The goal is not to win. The goal is simply to understand what the other person wants. That is the win, I guess. Yeah, that's the win, right? That's the win. I don't have to defeat you, but we can win together. So when I came in today and I sat down with you and we were kind of chatting about how our lives are going, we signaled to each other a bunch of stuff.

27:34Charles Duhigg:Like we signaled that we were casual with each other, that we like each other. Yeah. We signaled that it was okay to interrupt each other. We signaled that we didn't have to be, we didn't have to do looping for understanding. Like, like you want, you can hear that I'm listening to you and I can do the same. There's all these small cues that we pick up on. Now, imagine if we had come in and I had sat down and you were like, Hey man, what's going on? And I was like, well, it's good to see you today. Like, like, Oh, allow me to tell you about myself.

28:04Lewis Howes:Right. I mean, and we had that, like people, I had this last week with someone who was here. I won't say who it was, but I was trying to be, you know, more playful and open and, you know, flexible. and uh they eventually got there but in the first 10 minutes i like not intentionally interrupted but i just kind of added to something and you know followed up with a question while they were still finishing something but it's kind of how i do a lot of things yeah and uh and he goes you know make sure you don't do that with the next person he kind of like cued me like let me finish first right i was like okay well i'm gonna make sure i've let him finish yeah before i add something

28:39Charles Duhigg:yeah okay cool i know what the rules are now right i know the rule yeah he was kind of like hey

28:44Lewis Howes:you know it was like which we right it was kind of playful but it was kind of like yeah okay like i don't know him so right okay all right i want to make sure we get a good interview so i'm gonna

28:55Charles Duhigg:play by your rules well and and oftentimes what happens at the beginning of a conversation even without us recognizing we're doing it is that we conduct experiments uh-huh right i might say something casual to you and then i pay attention do you cat right do you laugh back i might interrupt to you and i and if you say like don't do that again i'll notice right and the thing that to remember is that i don't think it was a it was not a mistake that you did that it was not even a failure because the whole point of a conversation at the beginning is to work out those rules experiment with it experiment with it and if some and if every like my wife is a scientist if every experiment is a success you're a terrible scientist right you want to do experiments that fail and succeed.

29:36Charles Duhigg:That's when you're learning. And the fact that this guy told you that, it means that he actually told you something about how he... So he communicates. He likes, yeah.

29:44Lewis Howes:And as an interviewer, I don't know if you do this when you're doing research or interviewing people as well. For me, I like to tell people when they ask me about interviewing or podcasting, this is my 11th year now of doing this show. It'll be 11 year anniversary probably when this episode comes out. um i always tell people that the the pre-show is the show us talking for 10 minutes before we turned on the camera yeah really determines a lot of how successful or unsuccessful the episode will go or the energy or the flow is based on the connection when someone enters the door the experience and the environment you create for them whether that's you or the actual environment your ability to see them before going on and if they feel heard and seen.

30:35Lewis Howes:Yeah. That is the show.

30:38Charles Duhigg:And vulnerability, right? 100%. And I think what, so there's another idea that's really critical in the book and that, that is critical to what we've learned in the last decade, which is known as emotional reciprocity. That when I show you something vulnerable, you need to show me that you've heard it. but if you share something vulnerable in return, we will feel closer. We really can't even, we can't, it's like hardware. We can't not feel closer.

31:03Lewis Howes:So one person shares something vulnerable and the other one does not at least show empathy, even if they don't share something vulnerable about them, but if they show some type of. Well,

31:13Charles Duhigg:so showing empathy is a form of vulnerability. Right. So, so if you say like, you know, my, my dad passed away and I say, oh man, I totally understand. My, my aunt died 12 years ago. Right. That's not. That's not empathy. That's not empathy. That's not, I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you. I'm not trying to share it. But if you said, you know, my dad passed away and I said, oh man, I like, I know how hard that is. I'm really sorry. And like, I've struggled with it. I'm sure you are. If you want to talk about it. Right. That's all it takes for me to reciprocate that vulnerability and to say to you, like, I welcome your vulnerability.

31:47Charles Duhigg:I, I'm trustworthy with it. And more importantly, like I'm willing to go there with you. Right. that's when all of a sudden we know the rule we know the rules of this conversation we know that and and when we were talking before the show and you know i asked about martha and i asked about your life and like you're very open and you're very you're very easy with your vulnerability and just hearing that like it tells me the rules right that like you can be open yeah it's a safe conversation where we can be honest with where we can be honest and real and once you have that you're exactly right. The rest of the conversation is so much easier.

32:24Charles Duhigg:Absolutely.

32:25Lewis Howes:Yeah. A lot of it is the first interactions you have with someone and kind of experimenting so you can understand the rules, the quiet negotiation. What are the rules of this dialogue going to be? Yeah. Um, speaking of honesty and challenging conversations, how can a super communicator that might be avoiding hard conversations with someone that as a friend or a business colleague, or their partner, their intimate partner, how can a super communicator, I guess, navigate conflict, disagreement, or challenging conversations to create a win-win?

33:03Charles Duhigg:It's a great question. Right, and there's a couple chapters on it, and it is sort of one of the biggest questions. And this is particularly in the last couple years. There's a chapter about the story of what happened at Netflix, because there was an executive at Netflix a couple years ago in a meeting used the N-word. And very quite rightfully, the rest of the company was like, this is totally unacceptable. But it threatened to actually divide the company because this was a popular executive. Some people were like, look, he didn't mean it as a slur. He was using it as an example. And other people were like, this is unacceptable.

33:39Charles Duhigg:You can't like - He's got to be gone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, and it took four months for them to fire him. But at that point, the company was on the brink of civil war. And so the culture wasn't good. The culture, the culture was just tearing themselves, tearing them apart. So they, they hired this woman, Renee Myers, who's an amazing woman to come in. And the first thing that she did is she said, okay, look, instead of avoiding conversations about race, we're going to have conversations about race, but here's how we're going to do it. we're going to start each conversation by acknowledging this is going to be awkward.

34:12Charles Duhigg:Like, and by the way, I'm going to make a mistake. You're going to make a mistake. We're going to say things that like, don't really come out the way we intended. It's going to be hard. And number two, everyone at this table deserves to be at this table. So simply, you know, obviously someone who's black belongs to this table, but if you're white, you also have a racial experience. And like, We need to hear that experience. You can testify, you can witness how your life has been as an expert. And everybody at the table has an equal right to talk about their own experiences. And that worked at Netflix.

34:53Charles Duhigg:I mean, it actually worked really well. It brought the company back together. Now, when that tough conversation you're having with an intimate partner or with a business partner where there's some conflict there, think about how differently he goes if you sit down and you say something serious i want to talk about let me just acknowledge this is going to be like awkward and i'm going to say i'm going to say some some things that like i don't they're going to come off dumber than i mean them yeah and i'm just going to ask for your forgiveness in advance and and my goal here is to like really understand where you're coming from because you belong at this table as much as i do yeah there's like

35:32Lewis Howes:three things that happened there. One is courage and vulnerability. It's like, Hey, I want to have a challenging conversation with you. So it's like, you're being vulnerable and you're being courageous. You're talking about something challenging. Uh, the second thing is really saying I'm going to, it's going to be hard and I'm going to make some mistakes. I may not say everything. So we're asking for forgiveness, which is also vulnerability. And then I guess really the third thing is like, I really want us to come to a good place at the end. I want there to be a win-win from this challenging conversation.

36:05Lewis Howes:I think Chris Voss talks about a similar concept around that. The former FBI negotiator, his book, I think, Never Split the Difference, where he's like, the best way to negotiate something challenging is to say, this is going to be a hard conversation. You're not going to like it. Starting with something around saying it as it is, as opposed to skirting around the challenge, is at least setting an expectation. and people would rather know what the expectation is going to be. It's like when a doctor says, ah, it's not going to hurt that much, but then they pinch you and you're like, ah, that was really painful.

36:40Lewis Howes:Right. It's like, uh, I did a, um, I had to do like a, an implant surgery, like with a fake tooth. Right. Oh, wow. And cause I had teeth removed when I was younger. And so they put these teeth in the last couple of years. And I asked the, um, the doctor, I go, how painful is this going to be? And he's like, it's going to hurt. He was like, it's not going to be comfortable. He's like, there's going to be pain. As opposed, I really wanted him to say like, yeah, it's not going to be that bad. You're going to be fine. He goes, it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be painful. And I was like, ah, this, I don't like knowing the anticipation of the pain, but when the pain was happening, it wasn't as bad.

37:19Lewis Howes:Yeah. It was painful. But I met the expectation because he communicated clearly Exactly. And so it made me trust him more. It made me feel safer because I knew what to expect. And so when you're talking about this, like having this, uh, I guess directness of like, Hey, this is going to be a hard conversation for me, maybe for you, but I want us to win at the end of this.

37:44Charles Duhigg:That's totally, and that's key. And I mean, you know, the last five years, like there's been a lot of conversations about race, right? And the difference between going in and saying, I want to acknowledge upfront that you as a black woman have had very different experiences than me as a white man. And I want to, I want to really understand you versus having a conversation about race that we've been forced into where we never acknowledged that actually we're talking about race. that first conversation goes so much better. And the same is true of gender, of religion, of politics. Like, you know, when you sit down with your crazy uncle at the Thanksgiving table, like if you say to them, like, Mike, like we have a difference of opinion, but like, I really want to understand where you're coming from.

38:29Charles Duhigg:It changes the entire dialogue.

38:31Lewis Howes:When you were doing the research for super communicators, what was the thing that stood out to you the most? That you either were doing well and it was a confirmation to what you were doing or something you realized, oh, I've had this whole thing wrong. And a lot of people have this thing wrong. And if we just started doing more of this, there would be a lot

38:52Charles Duhigg:more harmony in relationships. I think the biggest thing, two things. The first is listening for and engaging with people's emotional conversation. So think about how frequently like you're at work and you talk to someone and you're like, they're like oh man my son graduated and i was just so proud of him or or actually it was a tough weekend like i it was like some stuff came up and our instinct is oftentimes to go straight to the practical be like sorry to hear that like let's talk about next year's budget right let's get down to work but if you just take a beat and you and you match that person and you say like ah like tell me about your son like i can't wait like tell me like tell me what he's like where you say like, I'm, I'm sorry that it was like a tough weekend.

39:40Charles Duhigg:Like I've definitely had tough weekends. If you want to, if you ever want to talk it over with me, I'm here for you. That engaging that emotional conversation, allowing yourself to recognize it and saying like, this is actually an important part of communication that I think has been super powerful. Really? Yeah. Just because I think I, in 2017, I was at the New York times and they made me a manager how was that well I thought I would be great at it I was like you know I have an MBA I've had bosses before yeah and I know it was okay at the logistics part of it I was a terrible manager I was so bad because because of the communication part and usually what it came down to you're a writer you're a journalist I know award-winning expert at this believe me I like, it caught me off guard too.

40:30Charles Duhigg:And, and the, the again and again, the thing that happened was that somebody would come and they would basically say, I want to talk to you about something emotional and I would treat it as something else. You went right to practical or something. Or social or like problem solving. Yeah. And, and if I had just slowed down and said, okay, look, just tell me how you're feeling. Like, I just want to like understand how you're feeling and hear it. It would have changed everything. I would have been such a better manager. So that's the first thing that has really shaped how, shaped how I communicate.

41:08The second thing is, so we, human superpower is communication, right?

41:17Charles Duhigg:The reason we survive as a species is because we can communicate. The reason why we've thrived. And we have instincts on how to communicate. and the other thing i've learned is to be a super communicator means learning some stuff right learning tools or skills but the goal of those tools or skills are actually just to remind us of what our instincts are because our instincts are really really good yeah and when we screw up it's usually because we don't listen to our instinct we know this dark god yeah yeah instead we're like we're like well you know i'm supposed to behave this way i'm supposed to be a macho or I'm supposed to be X or Y or Z instead of like stopping and being saying like, what am I authentically experiencing right now?

42:02Because if you share that, you're probably going to connect with the other person.

42:06Charles Duhigg:Yeah. So I've tried to indulge that more. Wow. That's cool. Yeah.

42:13Lewis Howes:School of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. And one of the things that I've learned from traveling to big events is how much it changes the experience when you actually have a place that feels like home. After a full day of conversations, meetings, or being around that event energy, it's nice to come back somewhere that feels comfortable. Somewhere you can reset, recharge, and feel connected to the city that you're actually in. And it made me think about my own upcoming travel in a different way. And when I'm away, there may be people coming into my city for a game, a conference, or a special event looking for that same kind of experience.

42:51Lewis Howes:A comfortable place to stay, real local recommendations, and a better feel for the culture. And that's what I love about putting your space on Airbnb. You're not just opening a door. You're giving someone a chance to experience the area through your eyes. And you can earn some extra income while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. You know those moments when you're ordering everything to your house? From groceries, gear, random things you didn't even realize you needed until the last minute? It just makes life a little easier. And now you can add internet to that list.

43:32Lewis Howes:Get same-day delivery for T-Mobile 5G home internet powered by DoorDash. No store visits, no waiting around for a technician. It shows up, you plug it in, and you're online in about 15 minutes with one cord. T-Mobile has the fastest 5G home internet. For me, working from home on the podcast, that simplicity matters a lot. I'm on video calls, uploading episodes, researching guests, and sending emails. And when everything just works and I don't have to think about it, I stay focused on what actually matters. It fits right into my workflow and it keeps things moving throughout the day. Visit t-mobile.com slash home internet to check availability and get your home internet delivered today.

44:18Lewis Howes:Same day delivery for most internet eligible customers. See if it's an option during checkout. Fastest according to Oogla speed test intelligence data. Second half 2025. All rights reserved. We talked about looping for understanding. We've talked about deep questions. We've talked about the three different types of conversation.

44:40Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

44:43Lewis Howes:I'm curious about how to have a conversation that turns into abundance of opportunities for you. Is there a way to draw from your work in this book that people could say, if I just started doing this thing, it would unlock a level of abundance? financial abundance better opportunities for me is there a certain style of conversation i should be having a way i should be listening that unlocks abundance is there anything from your

45:16Charles Duhigg:research yeah so so let me let me ask you a question because i know that this podcast started with you looking for mentors right you going out trying to learn yes so when you approach someone And before you're a known, you're like a young guy, you're reaching out to these like very successful folks. What do you do that gets them to take some time to tell you their insight? You mentioned something in this book that I think you're going to be referencing here in a second, which is about really creating relatability on different things from either the past or whatever it might be.

45:51Lewis Howes:And so originally I would reach out to people through LinkedIn. This is in 2007, eight and nine for my other business that I had. And I would reach out to them, uh, leaders in kind of like the local community in Columbus, Ohio, CEOs and executives. And I would email people originally and just say, Hey, I'm inspired by what you've done. Can you help me with some advice type of conversation? Yeah. And I want to give many responses, maybe a couple of like, Hey, I'm, I have no time for you or not right now. and then i started just experimenting other things and i started really researching the person i was going to be messaging and emailing and on linkedin you could see where they went to school different clubs and associations they're part of awards hobbies interests also different connections that they had with you second and third degree so i started saying well let me try to find different things we have in common and in the first sentence or two i would say you know hey Charles I see we both live in New York City you know whatever it is any commonality at all I see we we and nine other yeah yeah exactly we're both uh you know we're both authors I've written a book um and I see that you like running half marathons and I just ran my first marathon last year whatever it would be I would try to find three levels of commonality yeah and when When I started to do that, it was almost like every person was replying to me and everyone would give me an hour to either jump on the phone, meet in person, like whatever I asked, they would give me time.

47:26Lewis Howes:Now, based on that conversation of time and how I showed up and my being genuine and asking the right questions, that determined what was going to happen next. But it was got my foot in the door to at least have a conversation by creating that level of common interest from shared experiences of past and the better i got at researching and understanding based on a profile and able to communicate um our shared interests the more people wanted to connect with me so here's what i hear you saying yes and tell me if i'm getting

47:59Charles Duhigg:this right because if you email me and you're like we both live in new york yes we both run marathons i'd be like i thought i don't know it's more direct to what right right or let's say it is more direct let's say like you know i see that you're on a softball league i played softball that's actually not like there's no reason that i'm necessarily going to reply to your email because we love softball that's right what you're really saying is i'm proving to you that i want to connect i'm making an overture i'm not just dropping you an email because you're a famous person and like, I said 30 of them today.

48:33Charles Duhigg:I actually spent some time. I'm making what's known as a bid for connection. So one of the things that super communicators do is they make these bids a lot. Oftentimes without us realizing it, when I asked if Matt laughed a lot, one of the things we know is that super communicators laugh much more. I saw that in your, in the book too. Yeah. But they don't laugh in response to things that are funny. They laugh just because they want to show you that they want to connect. Interesting. And when you laugh back, you're showing you want to connect back.

49:01Lewis Howes:I think you had some research in there or something that was like, I can't remember what those percentages, but most people just are laughing not because there's something funny, right?

49:08Charles Duhigg:80 % of the time we laugh not in response to humor, but to show someone else that we want to connect with them. And when they laugh back, they show us that we want to connect. The other thing about super communicators, and I love that you mentioned that when you got together with them, you asked the right questions. Super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. But it doesn't feel like an interrogation because a lot of the questions are things like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me about that. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah. Tell me more. How did that work like that?

49:35Charles Duhigg:Yeah. Yeah. What did you think about that? Why did you do that? There's questions that are so fast that we don't register them as questions. But what they're doing is, again, they're proving that we want to connect. Showing interest. Showing interest. Showing listening. Showing that I am opening myself. There is this thing about vulnerability that vulnerability tends to be the loudest expression we can make. If someone is saying something vulnerable, we cannot help but listen to them. All of reality TV is based on this principle, right? Like our brain is hardwired so that when we see vulnerability, we have to stop and listen.

50:15Charles Duhigg:Wow. And when you say to someone, I see that we both love softball and like, can I have a couple of minutes? You're exposing a vulnerability and they listen to it. Interesting. And it makes you seem trustworthy. So that's the thing that I would say is that the, the thing that creates abundance is to put those bids out there to, to make that first offering and to, to laugh at, to, to laugh at someone's joke, to show them you want to connect, to ask them a deep question. to say like, you know, like, I understand that you probably don't want to talk to someone like me, but like I've done a little bit of research about you and you just seem so interesting to me.

50:55Charles Duhigg:Like, can I just ask you a couple of questions? Right. That vulnerability, that authenticity, we hear that.

51:02Lewis Howes:Yeah, I understand you're probably the busiest person. You probably have no time for someone like me. Right. I would just love to be able to ask you like two or three questions. Absolutely. And by the way, you're probably going to say no, but you know, I'm just, and by the way,

51:13Charles Duhigg:we both went to this high school, right? Like, by the way, it's something, it's something. By the way, the fact that we both went to that high school doesn't mean anything. But the fact that I looked up what high school you went to shows that I genuinely want to connect.

51:24Lewis Howes:And it's fascinating. I don't know if you're like, where did you go to college? I went to Yale. Yale. Yeah. I don't know if someone reached out to you who's like, I don't know, 24, who just graduated Yale, who's like wrote at the Yale newspaper or whatever. And they reach out to you and there's just like, you know, I know that you probably don't have time right now because you've got all these things going on. but I'd love to have five minutes of your time. You're probably, and we both went to Yale. You're probably more likely to reply to that person than someone at Harvard who said the same thing.

51:55Lewis Howes:Right.

51:56Charles Duhigg:And it's not - Just because of the association. And it's because they sought me out. They know enough about me to know that we have this thing in common. The fact that I went to Yale, I haven't been to Yale in 20 years, right? It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. It's not part of my identity. But the fact that they did the research to figure out where I went to college. So if they went to Harvard and they were like, Or they went to, you know, University of New Mexico. And they say, like, I saw that you went to Yale and like, I've always admired Yale. And I'm just wondering if I could ask you a couple of questions.

52:24Charles Duhigg:Literally, someone did this three days ago. No way. And I got on the phone with them and I was like, don't become a journalist. Like the industry is disappearing. But but it is. And it's. It doesn't matter what you say as much as it matters what what's behind what you say, the message I'm sending. the same way that like when I ask you a question and you respond vulnerable vulnerably to me and then I reciprocate that vulnerability we're making an offer to each other yes and we're seeing if that offer is accepted or not right and asking someone for advice is not an offer saying I researched you and I admire you can I just ask you a question that's an offer that's interesting I'm curious about this Charles you know you ten years ago your life really kind of changed in

53:10Lewis Howes:away with power habit, right? Yeah. Like put you on a map in a different way. You had a successful career, but it wasn't as big of a platform as when that book came out. Correct. It was transformational. What is it like being a super communicator before a lot of success comes your way? Kind of when you're trying to figure out life or your career or developing yourself, skills and talents versus boom. I want number one, New York times, Pilots, surprise winner, three years on the times list, 10 million copies of the book, like boom, an explosion of this world success. How does it differ to be a super communicator after and before?

53:51Charles Duhigg:So I think the thing that happened, I will say this. So that, so 2013 power of habit comes out and that's the same year I won the Pulitzer prize for this work. I was doing it in the New York times about Apple had nothing to do with, with habits. Um, and it was, it was definitely the hardest and maybe one of the worst years of my life really how is that possible and the reason why is because it went to my head and i stopped listening to my instincts like i just got like blocked from like leading up to that i like the what i found was that like when people start telling you how smart you are at some point you start believing them and that's always like the path to ruin right like luckily I have a wife who like would tell me how dumb I was so that that helped a lot but but it was a really challenging time and I think what happened

54:41Lewis Howes:is that you made you had more success than ever before you had more money more fame yeah

54:45Charles Duhigg:opportunity and all that stuff was great I feel so lucky to have had that like I feel so fortunate that this happened it was the lowest time for you I like you couldn't pay me enough to go back to that year and relive it it was so hard I felt I felt like every single opportunity like I felt like i felt like i was on top of the like i had won the lottery and twice yeah twice twice and if i and the only future was downhill and by the way if i don't continue winning the lottery it's because my fault because i because like i'm i'm a dummy like i i squandered this opportunity and so i got so inside my own head that i i actually stopped i stopped being a super communicator to be honest i just i talked a lot more than i listened because everyone wanted your advice or they thought you had all the answers or whatever yeah or because they were giving me money to go stand on the stage and like nobody ever says like your idea is not a good idea when you're standing on that stage it's it's when you're in a newsroom or when you're with your friends or when you're with your spouse they're the ones who are like that's a dumb idea like Like you aren't thinking clearly.

55:56Charles Duhigg:And so a lot of, a lot of, so the reason I wrote super communicators was because I had these experiences where I felt like I'm a professional communicator and I'm doing something wrong. And actually one night I wrote, I sat down and I wrote out over the past year all the places where I felt like I had failed to communicate. So like fight with my wife that we could have avoided. um manager at work and not doing a good job not doing right by my my team my team um my kids coming to me and like you know clearly wanting to like connect and i'm like caught up in like some article i'm writing right too busy or whatever yeah and it's not like i was a monster like i wasn't doing this all the time but as i looked at it there was like once every two weeks once every three weeks there was something and i thought to myself like if i was if i'm so smart like why why am i failing at this.

56:51Charles Duhigg:And so the way the book started was me calling experts and just saying like, I have this friend who's bad at communication. Right. Right. Right. But I would say like, look, like, you know, this is a fight I had with my wife explained to me like, like what I did wrong. And that's when they started saying, actually, there's a science behind this. You can learn this science. Like you can get better at this. And so a lot of recovering from that success was learning to re-listen to these instincts that were there that the success had sort of made harder to hear. Even the words you just shared there, recovering from the success, there's so many people that want to be successful.

57:30Lewis Howes:They want to make more money. They want to have their work or their message be a bestseller. They want to get acknowledged for their work, their efforts. They want to win awards. They want bigger followings. But when you got those things initially, you had to recover from them. It was the most challenging year of your life. Yeah. What is it about fame, money, and success you wish everyone knew about?

57:55Charles Duhigg:Yeah. And a lot of people, I mean, you've spoken about this eloquently, Tim Ferriss has written about this. The problem is that when you're chasing something and the chase is glorious, right? The chase is pure. It feels so good. Like, you know what to do every morning when you wake up you start to think that the point of it is the thing at the end of the chase rather than the chase itself like you're so focused i was so focused on winning a pulser prize like i like wanted it so bad and and the letdown was i mean i love having won it it's i feel like it's a real honor but like once once that was gone as a north star i was like what do i write about for the new york times now wow and so i think what happens is that was there a big hangover

58:41Lewis Howes:emotional hangover for you like how long did the the joy last when you won oh surprise i don't know

58:47Charles Duhigg:30 or 40 minutes like really yeah because then i started stressing about like what am i going to say in the speech i got to thank this guy like how do i navigate like like yeah like because this the this is the thing that people like everyone who's listening they're listening because they want to become better, not because they want to be best. Once you're best, like that's, that's less fun than improving yourself. Right. I mean, frankly, they're already best. Everyone who's listening to this is probably a huge success at what they do. They, they, they are successful. And the reason they're successful though.

59:23And the reason they're happy is because they wake up every day and they

59:26Charles Duhigg:know I can get a little bit better. And if what you're saying is here's the mountaintop, once you reach it, you don't know what to do next. It feels like then you need to look for a new mountain. And, and the real answer is just to recognize actually the mountain is life. Like the mountain is like, I have a great relationship with my wife, but how much better can I be as a husband? And like, I love my kids and I'm close to them, but like, how can I know more about their lives? Like, how can I, how can I help them more? Like, once you stop saying there is a goal I'm moving towards, then you start to recognize like the goal is actually what you do every day and that's so much more rewarding wow do you think and you think that's right yeah i'm i'm curious about

1:00:12Lewis Howes:right before maybe the year leading up to that moment If you could assess yourself on an inner dialogue or an inner feeling between one and ten, call it the self-love inner peace scale.

1:00:28Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

1:00:28Lewis Howes:Ten being you had lots of love and acceptance and peace and joy inside of you. One being you're miserable. Where were you that year leading up to that success? And where were you the year or years afterwards?

1:00:42Charles Duhigg:So leading up to it, I would say it was like an eight. Wow. It felt great. Like I was like, I was operating on all cylinders. I felt like I was doing good work. And then I have the, and then I have the success and I feel, I just, I felt like, I felt anticipatory regret. Like I felt like I'm going to make a mistake and I'm going to feel like the stupidest person ever for not taking advantage of this opportunity. Really? And it took a couple of years for me to get back to being an eight. And the thing that happened was I wrote another book that did not do very well. so I wrote a book called smarter faster better which I think is actually I loved writing it it was a I think it's a good book it I mean it was a it was a good book to write it's a it's not a good book it's not designed okay as a book it's it's too random okay and I wrote it because I thought that it's what readers wanted from me rather than something that I was really you wanted that I wanted to create.

1:01:42Charles Duhigg:And, and it did fine. It sold over a million copies, but it was nowhere near like the power of habit. Nobody talks about it. A million copies is massive success. It was great. It was great. And people, but, but afterwards I thought to myself, like the next book I write, it has to come from a question. I actually want to answer for myself. Right. Like again, like the journey is more important than the destination. Like, because the destination is one day and the journey is years leading up to it. You gotta be excited about it, interested in it. You gotta be excited, you gotta be interested. You're gonna spend so much more time in the journey than you are in the destination.

1:02:18Charles Duhigg:Yeah. So if you're only thinking about that destination, you're missing a lot that's happening around you. Wow. Can I ask you, because I know that your athletic career, your football career, was cut short by an injury. When that happened, what was that like afterwards?

1:02:38Lewis Howes:Like, was there... It's pretty depressing for about a year and a half. Sadness. Well, I was in a, I had a surgery. So I was in a cast for six months in this position. We were like on a full arm cast where I couldn't straighten my arm, couldn't turn it or straighten it for six months. Except for every six weeks, they take it off to replace it. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, uh, six months like this living on my sister's couch, making no money. And this was in 2007 and eight when the economy crashed, housing market crashed. So people weren't hiring. I didn't have a college degree yet. I left early to go put chase the dream of football.

1:03:11Lewis Howes:I had five credits left, but I was like, I didn't have, I didn't study in school though. So I didn't have confidence from school to get me a job or something. So I just felt like, what am I going to do the rest of my life?

1:03:22Charles Duhigg:So what pulled you out of that? Like, what's the turning moment that like -

1:03:25Lewis Howes:Well, I felt I had a lot of time alone and I felt I was listening to my inner voice that's that was meant for more. Like there was something more that I was supposed to do. I didn't know what, but I knew I needed to just take action on something and course correct along the way. So I didn't know what direction. And I started with a list of my fears. And I said, I don't want to be in fear anymore. I don't want to be afraid of my insecurities. So I started writing down a list of my fears. Public speaking was at the top of it. Salsa dancing was one as well. Learning and musical instrument, like all these different things that I was like, I'm just not good at these things.

1:04:14Lewis Howes:And the downside of getting injured is I couldn't practice my sport anymore. The upside is I had all this time. I had unlimited time essentially to attack all my fears. And that year after that, I went to Toastmasters every single week for a year. I found my kind of a coach mentor that helped get me into Toastmasters that recommended it. And would give me feedback on my little five-minute speeches that were horrible. And I would study every single week. I would practice. I would rehearse. I would film myself and get better at that. I went salsa dancing three times a week. I was like obsessing about salsa dancing at night to go to clubs.

1:05:02Lewis Howes:I did, uh, group lessons, private lessons, like anything I could do. I'm begging people to teach me. I was listening on CD to like, uh, uh, you know, a CD of all salsa music and just practicing my mind throughout the whole day. Then practicing at night physically going to Toastmasters. I was being a super communicator and connector. I was on LinkedIn all day, reaching out to people, trying to connect with people to find opportunities. So I was building relationship skills. All these things that I was insecure about, I started to apply them and it gave me an incredible gifts. It gave me more skills.

1:05:38Lewis Howes:It gave me connections and one connection led to the next opportunity. And so I just tried a lot of things, which I might've been distracted, but it was a season of trying and experimenting. And that led me to my first kind of money-making opportunity at online marketing company that I created. And I did that for many years until I transitioned into the podcast. Yeah. So it was kind of like, all right, let me just try a lot of stuff and then see where something takes me. You know, that old saying, it isn't what you say, it's how you say it. I've always believed that anyone can talk about ambition or determination, but the real question is how you show up your presence, your energy, the way you move through the world.

1:06:19Lewis Howes:That's what makes the difference. Lending power, poise and performance, just like you, the Range Rover sport was designed to make impact. With a distinctly British design, the Range Rover Sport is built to take on roads anywhere. Free from unnecessary details, its raw power and agility really shine. It combines a dynamic sporting personality with elegance and agility to deliver an instinctive drive, and its assertive stance hints at an equally refined driving performance. Defining modern luxury, the Range Rover Sport features the latest innovations in comfort and convenience. The cabin air purification system, alongside active noise cancellation, creates a new level of quality, comfort, and control.

1:06:53Lewis Howes:Terrain Response 2 offers seven terrain modes to choose from, fine-tuning the vehicle for challenging roads ahead. And it's available with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug-in hybrid with an estimated range of 48 miles. The Range Rover event is on now. Explore enhanced offers at RangeRover.com. This one's for all the TV lovers. My Entertainment from DirecTV gets you over 60 channels and Disney +, Hulu, and HBO Max all in one pack. Watch it all, but don't spoil it. Tell your friends to get My Entertainment 2 for$34.99 a month. Go to directtv.com slash genre packs and sign up today.

1:07:30Lewis Howes:New customers only. Service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required. Conditions apply to apps. HBO Max Basic with ads begins after Direct TV five-day trial. Learn more at directtv.com. Restrictions apply and what i love about that story is that it was the things that you were bad at you studied

1:07:52Charles Duhigg:and you became not just good at but really good at this and that's why i say so many of these super communicators they are people who have these periods when they were bad at communication so they felt like they had to pay more attention to it they had to study how it works like i i mean

1:08:09Lewis Howes:And I say this confidently and with humility at the same time, that I can go anywhere in the world to any salsa club in the world and walk in randomly and look for the best female salsa dancer and ask her to dance and have an incredible dance with this person. That's amazing. Anyone in the world, because I've done it. I literally traveled the world doing this to give myself these experiments. I go, what if I do this in Argentina, in Mexico, in Ireland, in France, in Australia, in New Zealand? I went around the world because I was afraid to do it.

1:08:47Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

1:08:48Lewis Howes:And I was afraid of rejection. So I was like, I need to put myself in situations to be rejected. And it would be an experiment. I'm going to go in and I'll look for the best female dancer and I'm going to ask her to dance with me, even if I don't speak the language. And I would get rejected a lot. And I was like, oh, that doesn't feel good, but let me just keep going. and I would make it a game. I was like, how can I get them to come up to me by the end of the night to dance with me? Because they see how good you are. You can actually dance. It's just like experiments and games, right? Yeah. And the public speaking thing, you know, I'm going to Mexico next week to get a big paycheck to speak and I would have never been able to do this had I not had that time to practice every single week.

1:09:27Well, and so what I love about that

1:09:30Charles Duhigg:is that you've changed the definition of success. And I think that gets back to why that year after Power of Habit came out was so hard for me is that oftentimes when we go into a conversation, we think that the point of a conversation, the definition of success is to like convince the other person of something, right? Or to like win the conversation or to prove that I'm right or - Look smart or something. To feel smart, to look smart. And the real point of a conversation is simply to understand the other person. It's not to agree with each other. If you and I differ on gun control or abortion or something like that, we're not gonna convince each other.

1:10:02Charles Duhigg:but if I understand what you're saying and you feel listened to, and if you understand what I am saying and I feel listened to, then that conversation is a success. Wow. The same way that going into a club and trying to learn to salsa dance, the definition of success is not that the, the best answer in that place says yes, right away. The definition of success is that you asked seven different people, six of them turned you down and you persisted.

1:10:28Lewis Howes:Yeah. Right. Kept going. Yeah.

1:10:29Charles Duhigg:Exactly. Or that like after writing a book and winning this prize that my definition of success was doing work I'm proud of every day, regardless of whether it's going to win a prize or anyone's going to read it, doing work that feels meaningful to me. When we, when we find the right definition of success, it's not hard to align how to achieve it. It's just that oftentimes we haven't thought more deep, deeply enough about what success actually means for us.

1:10:57Lewis Howes:Right. But if someone's in a, you mentioned kind of winning a conversation or trying to look right in a conversation, what's the best way super communicators can navigate or influence or resolve the conflict if it's just not going well? Maybe at a family holiday thing or a relationship or whatever it might be where it's just, oh, this is not going well.

1:11:20Charles Duhigg:There is this power move. And before I describe it, let me just say, not every conversation, not every situation has to be a conversation. Like, it's fine if your uncle is spouting off about some crazy lizard people are going to take over the world. Just walk away. Yeah, or just be like, oh, that's interesting. And then just don't engage, right? Like, you don't have to have a conversation with everyone. When I say to my kids, I want to talk about your room, I'm not looking for a conversation. I'm looking to tell them, like, it's time to take your room. Yeah. But let's say you do want to have a conversation.

1:11:49Charles Duhigg:so what's the number one thing you can do if someone has said something to you that's aggressive or crazy or offensive to you is to ask a deep question and the easiest question ask the deep question is tell me like i you're clearly passionate about this like why is this so important to you like what is it about this that's so important to you why and and at that point i'm not judging i'm not offering any judgment right and what that person is going to tell you is they're going to tell you not about that topic they're going to tell you about who they are their values their beliefs their experiences that's exactly right like like if if you're saying something you know you like the eagles and i hate the eagles right and i say to you like why are like why are the eagles so important to you what are you going to tell me about is like Like me and my dad used to go and it's so meaningful, this relationship and these moments.

1:12:47Charles Duhigg:Yeah. And I know what it's like to have meaningful relationships with a dad, right? Like I had those moments, like that's something where we can connect. And the fact that I think that you're an idiot for liking the Eagles, which let me just say, I love the Eagles as an example. But like suddenly we're not talking about this thing that's a source of conflict. We're talking about who we are. And the truth is you are an expert on who you are. Like I can't take, I can't even question your expertise on your values, your beliefs, your experiences. So once you, once I put you in a position where you can confidently talk about who you are, you're just much more relaxed and you're willing to listen to me.

1:13:24Charles Duhigg:That's cool.

1:13:25Lewis Howes:What if you know the person's wrong? Like you're like, oh man, this person's just so emotionally irrational that they're not listening to me and also my side. Like what if you just know like, nah, they are wrong.

1:13:40Charles Duhigg:Yeah, maybe they're not, but you just feel, gosh, whatever they're saying, they're just belief is just not the right belief. So there's been a there's been a ton of research on this because of covid. So so when when the covid vaccine rolled out, there was a lot of people who were anti vaccine vaccine. And the CDC basically said we tried lecturing at them and that didn't work clearly. So now we need to understand how to communicate with folks, not to try and necessarily force them to get the vaccine, but just to understand why they're saying no to us and to understanding if there's another way to presenting this information.

1:14:16Charles Duhigg:And so they did a ton of research and ton of experiments. And what they found was that the most effective technique is something called motivational interviewing, where I ask you that why question. So if someone comes in and they say, I'm opposed to, I'm opposed to vaccines and I'm a doctor, it'd be really easy for me to say, like, let me show you all the evidence about why vaccines are great. Right. Let me show you. But a better way is to say, tell, tell me why, like a, why you've anti-vaccine, but B, tell me why this is important to you. Like, like, there's a lot of things you could have told me.

1:14:48Charles Duhigg:The fact that you're telling me this means that it's meaningful to you. So they answer that question. And then I hear something that they say that indicates a value of belief or an experience. They say, look, I'm really worried about my kids. I've heard rumors that this vaccine can hurt kids. You know, it'd be fine for old people, but for my kids, I'm really worried about it. Then you can say, again, you're an expert in you and I'm an expert in me. You can say, I totally hear what you're saying. I have kids too. I am really worried about the safety of my kids. the thing that's hard for me is that I see kids come in every day who are unvaccinated and they're sick and I can't help them.

1:15:28Charles Duhigg:Right. And that's, that really like, it's just hard for me to see that. Now I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm not telling you you're dumb. I'm not telling you you don't know what you're talking about. I'm telling you about my experience because we have something in common. We both care about our kids. It's good. And what's amazing is I've talked to dozens of doctors who have been taught how to do motivational interviewing, they say that again and again what happens is that person starts the conversation by saying, I'm against vaccines, I'm never going to get vaccinated. They feel listened to.

1:16:00Charles Duhigg:They feel like the doctors heard what they said, reaffirmed what they said, shared their own experiences. And at the end of it, they're like, you know, I'm willing to try it. I trust you, so I'm willing to try the vaccine. And this technique of motivational interviewing, there's been a lot of experiments in politics around using this technique. And what they find is that around gay marriage was kind of the platform that was used to try and study this. The most effective way to get someone to support gay marriage who has said that they do not support gay marriage is to ask them what they think about marriage.

1:16:38Charles Duhigg:Don't argue with them. Don't disagree. And then say, you know, I think marriage is really important too. And I have a friend, James, who's gay, And he loves his boyfriend. And what do you think we should do to let them experience... Like, marriage is really important. You and I, we both... Like, what do you think we should do? Help me understand where you're coming from. That actually is what changes people. That worked. It worked overwhelmingly. Wow. It worked. It actually... It was like a 6 % change in the electorate and the people who are polled, which in politics, you don't change 6 % of minds on anything.

1:17:20Charles Duhigg:Wow. And it was because they didn't argue. They just listened. They didn't say you're wrong, you're right,

1:17:27Lewis Howes:or whatever it is. They just said, what's a better solution?

1:17:29Charles Duhigg:How can we make this work? And we both believe in this thing. We both think that marriage is so important. And I love this guy, James. And maybe you know someone who's gay. And if they came to you and they said, I love this person and I want to show my love for them. And like, you just told me how important marriage is. Like, how do we give that to them? Yeah. Then suddenly it's, it's, we're on the same side of the table. We're solving. We're agreeing with something. Yes. We're solving this question together. Interesting. Instead of at odds with each other.

1:17:59Lewis Howes:Right. They say like marriage conflict or relationship conflict that it's never you versus the person. It's you both versus the problem. That's exactly right. It's approaching it. Okay. The problem is this. How can we solve the problem together? Yeah. Not you did this thing that I, or I did this thing or whatever. Here's the thing. Let's find a solution.

1:18:21Charles Duhigg:And when we're in conflict, particularly in a marriage, we have this instinct to try and control things. Cause like we feel conflict scary, right? You want to control. And the easiest thing to do is try and control the other person. You're wrong. You should believe this. If you say that, I'm going to leave the room. But what researchers have found is that the way that you say, like, we're going to focus on the problem is instead of trying to control each other, you try and control things together, like controlling when this argument takes place. Like instead of doing it at two o 'clock in the morning.

1:18:51Charles Duhigg:When you're both exhausted. Yeah. We're going to wait till 10 a.m. when we like have some time or trying to control the boundaries of the fight. Right. Like instead of where we're going to spend new years and your mother-in-law drives me crazy and we don't have enough money, like both of you sitting down and saying, okay, the thing we're going to talk about is where are we spending new years? Not about mothers, not about like money. Like let's control the boundaries of this discussion together. Suddenly you're on the same side of the table and you might not agree with each other right away, but you feel like you are working together.

1:19:24Charles Duhigg:That's powerful.

1:19:26Lewis Howes:This is inspiring stuff. I want people to get the book, super communicators, how to unlock the secret language of connection. I truly believe that the power, the quality of our life is related to the quality of our relationships. And the quality of our relationships is directly related to what you're talking about this in this book, which is how to communicate more eloquently, more intentionally, and with better ease with other people and really understanding where people are coming from. So if you want to have a higher quality life, make sure you get this book and understand this process. And again, this is a powerful stuff, especially now when loneliness epidemic is at, it seems like an all-time high in the U.S.

1:20:11Lewis Howes:and something that we really need to think about over the next decade of life. Are we going to get lonelier? Are we going to have less skills and tools for communication? What's that going to do to our health, our opportunities, our lack of abundance, our safety, all these different things. Learning to communicate is going to be the difference between having a miserable life with your friends and families or being in conflict

1:20:36Charles Duhigg:or having a beautiful life based on your ability to learn these skills.

1:20:41Lewis Howes:So I'm really grateful that you decided to make this your last few years of curiosity and dive into this. And I want to acknowledge you, Charles, for continuing to pursue wisdom when you don't have to. You've made a ton of money. You've won every award. You've been on the top of every list. You've sold almost 10 million copies of your books. You don't have to keep being curious and keep adding value to people. You've done a lot. And so I want to acknowledge you for taking your time to craft, create, and curate information that can help all of us. Oh, thank you. And by putting this out there, and I want people to get a copy of this book, how else can we support you right now?

1:21:25Lewis Howes:Where Or should we go to follow you or connect with you?

1:21:27Charles Duhigg:Well, and let me just start by saying thank you. Like, thank you for like having such an amazing conversation with me. Thank you for like being so honest and vulnerable and real and authentic. If people do want to follow up, if they, luckily my last name is Duhigg. I'm like the only Charles Duhigg on earth. If they Google me, they'll find my website and they'll find the books. Most importantly on my website and actually in the end notes of the book is my email address. and every single person who emails me every single reader who emails me i read and reply to their email way yeah yeah it's over 28 000 so far holy cow and and the reason why is because like you got to live what you preach right like like if someone takes the time to send me a note that they put time and energy into you owe that a debt of honor right and so like four hours a day just replying to people it it's it's i let them build up so they just spend like a saturday it's sort of like going through and like reading them but it's i'm charles at charles dhug.com if anyone wants to reach out um i'll definitely see your email and and i would love to hear people's stories about how they communicate like what they've found has helped them be a super communicator

1:22:40Lewis Howes:when school when they've needed it awesome i love it so they can follow you get the book email you you're on social media a little bit but you're not on there like too much right

1:22:51Charles Duhigg:yeah not as much as I should be

1:22:52Lewis Howes:I see you're surfing and I see you travel we were both in Japan last year oh yeah were you in Japan at the same time I saw you with the arches I didn't post my photos but I saw you photos there I was like that's cool very cool so people can do that

1:23:07Charles Duhigg:how else can we be of support and serve you you know honestly the best thing that you can do is if you read the book or you've heard an idea that you think is powerful share that idea with someone else. I mean, we were talking before, like if I can change one or two people, if I can make one or two people a better communicator, it's relatively modest. But if all of us make one or two people a better communicator, that loneliness epidemic goes away. Absolutely. Right? If there's thousands of people saying, I'm willing to have a tough conversation with you. I want to model for you how to do this.

1:23:43Charles Duhigg:like I have a, I have a friend I've been talked to in six months and it seems awkward to give them a call, but like, I'm just going to do it because they might be feeling lonely right now. That is the, the truest gift that I think someone can give me and themselves in the world is just to reach out and to try and communicate. That's cool. That's cool.

1:24:04Lewis Howes:Um, I asked you this the last time we had a conversation, but it was a while ago. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day on earth. You've created everything you want to create personally, professionally, hobbies. You do it all from this moment until that day, but you have to turn the lights off and go to the next place. And for whatever reason, it's hypothetical question. You have to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this book, any book, articles, interviews, it's all gone.

1:24:38Charles Duhigg:Yeah. Hypothetical, but you get to leave behind

1:24:41Lewis Howes:three lessons that you know to be true from your whole life's experience, everything you've learned. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind?

1:24:50Charles Duhigg:So I think the first one is like, is just pops into my mind immediately is the more you invest in your spouse and in your kids or whatever your relationship is. That's the closest relationships you have, every single ounce of that investment will be worth it. And it will be returned to you in like 10 X. And there are so many times, particularly when we're chasing success, that we don't invest in the people around us. And whatever that prize is that you get, whatever that money is that you get, it's nice. It's freeing, but it's not as nice as like a wife who loves you or kids who enjoy spending time with you or a husband who like thinks the world of you or just having like a great friend you can call anytime.

1:25:42Charles Duhigg:That's a beautiful one. So that's number one.

1:25:44Lewis Howes:Number two is I don't think I've ever heard that one. Oh really? That's I don't think I can remember hearing investing in people like that and how it will return in your investments. So that's really cool. So the, and the second one I think is it is always worth betting on yourself.

1:26:04Charles Duhigg:Like, you know, when I, when I went to business school, um, I graduated with my MBA and I decided to become a journalist and I was the lowest paid member of my class for the next four years. like I went to Harvard business school everyone wanted to go make a ton of money I was making I think forty thousand dollars my first year after and I had like 90 grand in student loans and but the thing is I was like look I I'm gonna bet on myself like I think I can figure out how to make how to make a career in this and everyone I know who succeeded it they've succeeded because they bet on themselves not because they bet on the safe course not because they bet on what the the wisdom of the masses it's because they bet on themselves so let's bet on yourself and then the third one is that as soon as you get something you don't really enjoy it until you start giving it away right like like i found i was lucky enough to make some money from the power of habit and i have tried to give to charity and i've tried to to support my friends and and i have never felt as rich in my life as when I give a check to someone who needs it.

1:27:20Charles Duhigg:Like otherwise, like having a lot of money is great because it's frees you up, but it can also be a little stressful, right? You're like managing all these things. Yeah. I'm not spending too much taxes, X, Y, and Z. It's a good problem to have, but it's a problem. But then we started this scholarship, um, for new writers who work at bookstores. And like, when I sent over the check, I was like, man, this is like the richest I've ever felt my entire life. So I, and I think that's true, not just of money. It's true of like influence and and kindness right like like as soon as you find something it's when you give it away that you're like oh this is something i actually have wow that's cool those are great lessons man i love that um so wait what are yours can i like what are do they change they've definitely evolved over time but i would say my three truths in this moment would be

1:28:11Lewis Howes:to live in gratitude. Yeah. And to really have a perspective of life and look at the beauty and the gratitude of the things that are happening as opposed to the negative sides of thing. Living in gratitude always makes me feel better. It always puts me in a state of appreciation. And when you appreciate something, it tends to appreciate and value even emotionally. so living gratitude would be number one number two would be to make your health a you know a high focus daily uh physical emotional spiritual health yeah um when you're sick all you care about is being healthy you know and it's like there's no other problem that matters in the world when you're sick except for that thing when you're healthy you can have lots of problems but it's like when you're sick you've got one problem getting healthy again.

1:29:06Lewis Howes:So stay healthy because I think that'll want to enrich your view of life, your relationships, everything. You'll be able to move with more ease in the world and have more energy. And the third would be to live in service. Um, you know, this is really living in service in relationships, being a great listener, a great communicator, I think is a service.

1:29:27Charles Duhigg:Yeah. I remember when I was starting after football and starting to meet with these

1:29:34Lewis Howes:kind of mentors, I didn't know what value I could add to people. I didn't have skills. I didn't have money. I didn't have talent. I was just like, ah, they're meeting me, but what can I do for them?

1:29:45Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

1:29:45Lewis Howes:And I started to realize that asking them the right questions where they could reflect and remember stories and share was a great service to them.

1:29:55Charles Duhigg:Yeah.

1:29:55Lewis Howes:It opened them up. It got them excited. It's like they felt like they were empowering me by teaching. Like I was adding a service to that and therefore developing in deeper relationships. And so living in service to the people around you is how I'd say is my third truth. Those are really beautiful. Gratitude, health, and service. I'm going to totally steal them. I like yours though. I like yours. Final question for you, Charles. What's your definition of greatness?

1:30:25Charles Duhigg:honestly my definition of greatness is that when that day comes when we die that people show up and they say you know what i just really liked knowing this people this person my dad died about six years ago and and i we went to the funeral and all these people showed up so many people and they just said like i like like your dad brought some joy into my life that's Cool. And he did lots of other stuff, right? But like, I don't know what could be greater than when you're no longer there for people to say like, I'm so glad I knew that person. Wow, that's cool. Yeah.

1:31:08Lewis Howes:That is greatness.

1:31:10Charles Duhigg:Charles, thanks, man.

1:31:11Lewis Howes:Appreciate it. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

1:31:49Lewis Howes:And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

1:32:07Charles Duhigg:Royal Caribbean takes next level to another level. Go all in on the world's boldest ships, filled with mind-blowing entertainment, world-class dining, and the largest water parks at sea. And just when you think it couldn't get any better, you'll stop at our award-winning private island, Perfect Day Coco Cay. It's an unreal adventure for everyone in the family. Book today at RoyalCaribbean.com. Big time, best time, all the time. Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Ships Registry Bahamas.

1:32:37Lewis Howes:Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called The Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm going to be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun.

1:32:51Charles Duhigg:The Morgan Stewart Show is out now.

1:32:53Lewis Howes:Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.