The Truth About Muscle, Protein, and Living Longer | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

7:59Lewis Howes:That's not feasible.

8:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So we've made it very easy to look at fat tissue, and we've become obsessed with fat, which arguably so. There's a reason it's homogeneous, meaning typically a lot of your fat would look the same as mine, whereas skeletal muscle is different.

8:16Lewis Howes:So how do we track it then? What's the best way? How do you do it?

8:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, I use a bioimpedance. Is that a machine? Yes, it's a machine. It's the best thing that we have right now.

8:26Lewis Howes:Does it scan your body? It does.

8:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It does. It scans your body. It's a bioelectrical impedance machine.

8:31Lewis Howes:It's called bioimpedance.

8:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, a BIA.

8:34Lewis Howes:BIA.

8:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it's really interesting because when you look in the literature, there's variations in terms of quality of machine, in terms of what those measurements are. but the next phase, if we can shift from fat to muscle-centric, we can now start looking at important endpoints.

8:56Lewis Howes:What I mean by important endpoints.

8:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So for example, eventually, I hope, we'll be able to look at you and say, hey, Lewis, this is how much muscle mass you should be for optimal health. And I'm not just talking about optimal health in the moment. I'm talking about your survivability. So someone will look at you and go, yeah, Lewis is healthy. He has enough muscle mass, he's doing great. Well, right now in your 30s and your 40s, this is the time to build tissue. So the endpoints that we look at during these times of aging are going to be different. So what does that mean specifically?

9:32Lewis Howes:When you mean tissue, you mean muscle? I mean

9:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:muscle.

9:34Lewis Howes:Okay.

9:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Oh, yeah, yeah.

9:35Lewis Howes:Building it everywhere or focusing on the main muscle groups

9:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I think that having a way of life that is functional is something that has become optional for us now. One of the reasons that is is because everything is easy. You can take the escalator. We are not required to do physical activity.

9:57Lewis Howes:You can eat food whenever you want, as much sugar and calories everywhere.

10:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But before, we were forced for movement. It was required to survive.

10:05Lewis Howes:Right.

10:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So the endpoints and the skeletal muscle that we're looking at now, we don't necessarily know what the optimal skeletal muscle mass for you should be. We don't know yet. We don't know.

10:15Lewis Howes:So just build, though, and stay flexible, stay healthy. Stay flexible. Reduce inflammation.

10:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And understand that it is not about losing fat. That is a losing, no pun intended, game. And if it were correct, we would have solved for it.

10:30Lewis Howes:Yeah, we're all obese.

10:32Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We haven't solved for it.

10:33Lewis Howes:So instead of focusing on losing fat, we should be focusing on building muscle.

10:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We should be focusing on building muscle. And again, the locomotion aspect of muscle is common in what everybody thinks about. Okay. That is only one component of what skeletal muscle is. Skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ.

10:53Lewis Howes:Endocrine organ.

10:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So for example, like the thyroid, it secretes thyroid hormone.

10:59Lewis Howes:Uh-huh.

11:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Dr. Muscle is an organ. When you contract it, it secretes myokines. Dr.

11:05Lewis Howes:Myokines. Dr.

11:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Myokines. And these are proteins that go throughout the body and have impact on all tissues. Dr.

11:12Lewis Howes:Not mitochondria. Dr.

11:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:No. I mean, muscle does have mitochondria, which is really important. But think of a myokine as, as you are exercising, you're actually secreting myokines. Dr.

11:23Lewis Howes:Okay. And why is that important? Dr.

11:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Why is it important? I'm so glad you asked. Dr. Amy Quinton, there's many different kinds of myokines. And I'm going to give you one example. Maybe I'll give you two. Interleukin-6 is the most well-studied myokine. And this comes from contracting skeletal muscle. And whether it is aerobic or resistance training, this amount increases 100-fold into the bloodstream. And this is work by Penderson. And she, I believe, is in Copenhagen. She is a exercise physiologist, immunologist, physician kind of incorporating the interface. Interleukin-6, when secreted from skeletal muscle, interfaces with the immune system.

12:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So macrophages are cells of the immune system that also secrete a cytokine. We've heard of cytokines. Interleukin-6, when it comes from macrophages, is a cytokine. This molecule, when it's secreted from skeletal muscle, is anti-inflammatory and helps regulate immune response as well as systemic inflammation.

12:32Lewis Howes:And so this happens when you're building muscle.

12:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When you are building muscle. When you are exercising. Let's talk about brain function. exercising muscle releases bdnf brain derived neurotropic factor goes to the brain goes to multiple areas of the body to make impact muscle is not just about fitness it's the organ of longevity it is responsible for the way in which we age and the pinnacle not the peripheral Right now, the way in which the current conversation is, we think about skeletal muscle and we think about exercise as something to look good in a bikini. But that is only one small aspect of skeletal muscle. It is the metabolic regulator.

13:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When you think about Alzheimer's disease, type 3 diabetes of the brain.

13:26Lewis Howes:Did you know muscle was the solution? Yes, I did. How did you know?

13:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I happen to be trained by one of the world-leading protein experts. He's mentored me for two decades. His name is Dr. Donald Lehman, and he is an academic professor. He's a professor emeritus from University of Illinois. And he actually, some of the nutritional aspects are some things that he discovered. So he has been doing this for, he's going to be really angry at me, like 40 years. Yeah, yeah, 40 years, and is really considered one of the finest researchers in this area. So I did my undergraduate with him. I did my undergraduate in human nutrition, vitamin, mineral metabolism, and worked on a lot of human studies, a lot of rodent studies.

14:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Sure. And he was focused on muscle. Very early on, I really thought about muscle as the pinnacle. But then you go through medical school, then you do a couple of residencies, and then everything comes full circle.

14:22Lewis Howes:And you come back to nutrition and building muscle. Right.

14:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And then it comes full circle.

14:27Lewis Howes:Because in medical school, they didn't teach you any of that, right?

14:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But I'd already been trained five years in nutritional sciences.

14:31Lewis Howes:Gotcha. But they try to teach you everything else about like, just treat the symptom with the medicine.

14:36Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Which is a flaw, but important, but is important because without having really credentialed training in that way, then I would miss the things that were really dangerous.

14:45Lewis Howes:Sure.

14:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I really valued that education, but I knew if I really cared about how I was going to move the needle for people, it had to be solution oriented.

14:56Lewis Howes:Interesting.

14:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So muscle, so at this moment, I had this aha moment and realized that there is a section of medicine that's obesity medicine. Why? Why do we not have muscle-centric medicine as a focal point? If we know it improves all-cause mortality, if we know that we have half a century of research to know that it is going to improve your survivability, the more fit you are, the healthier your muscle.

15:25Lewis Howes:Longevity, everything. Yeah.

15:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Longevity, exactly.

15:28Lewis Howes:Probably overall happiness too. Exactly. Although there are some people who have a lot of muscle who haven't figured out the happiness thing. It doesn't mean it's the cure to happiness. It's not. But you're releasing hormones, right? From the brain and through the body when you're building muscle.

15:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You are. Yes, there are influences on your mood that are very important. So muscle really is the focal point, but it has been the most underappreciated organ in the entirety of medicine. And, you know, fitness professionals really have that right. And if we can just take the fitness professional with the medical community and interface and treat muscle like the organ that it is, and really focus nutrition on optimizing for skeletal muscle. And it's very specific. And, you know, it's really interesting. We really have the nutrition aspect wrong.

16:27Lewis Howes:What are we doing wrong about it?

16:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, we are, you know, the current RDA for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram. And people feel that that is the maximum, right? And I'm going to tell you why. But when, well, first of all, I should ask you, do you feel like, when you think about protein, do you think how much? You probably think maybe I should have less.

16:51Lewis Howes:I never think that I'm having too much protein.

16:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You don't.

16:54Lewis Howes:I don't think I have like a protein deficiency or something. But I also don't feel like, you know, I don't really know what I think about protein. I don't think anything. I think I'm just eating a lot of it. Do you think, maybe. Do we know? I don't know. We don't know.

17:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So protein, the average American, okay, the average male consumes 100 grams of protein. A day? A day.

17:19Lewis Howes:Yeah.

17:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The average female is about 75 grams. Okay. I would argue... Is that a lot?

17:27Lewis Howes:Is that a little?

17:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We're going to talk about it. I would say...

17:29Lewis Howes:If you have too much, does it help you? Does it hurt you?

17:32Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So I would say that that is likely the minimum to prevent disease.

17:38Lewis Howes:The minimum.

17:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The minimum. So the RDA, right now, I think this is a really important point that we have to clear up. Right now, there's a lot of controversy surrounding protein.

17:48Lewis Howes:Would you agree? I think there's a controversy around all diets and nutrition in general. Yes.

17:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You know what? You make a really good point.

17:56Lewis Howes:Yeah.

17:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The concept of food science. Let's just take that for one second. When you think about food, you think about emotion, like your grandmother's cookies. You think about religion. Food is religious. You think about community.

18:13Lewis Howes:Family, community.

18:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You think about family. What else do you think about food?

18:16Lewis Howes:Friends, sports, parties, everything.

18:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So you think -

18:20Lewis Howes:It's a social thing.

18:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You think more about food and you don't necessarily think, it's the biological absorption of nutrients. Sure.

18:28Lewis Howes:I mean, I do, but I mean, yes. In general, yeah, yes.

18:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So there's food and then there's science. And science we think about as reproducible hypotheses that we can provide and generate a body of evidence. So when you combine the two, it's almost, so food science is almost like the ultimate oxymoron. And there's so much controversy surrounding food and nutrition. And part of it is, you know, and when we think about science, I don't think people argue about physics the way they argue about nutrition, do you? But it's a hard science.

19:04Lewis Howes:Right. People don't argue about math or, you know. Well, I guess because the science is evolving and changing with food, it seems like, over the years, right? True. There's new discoveries and new findings.

19:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But are people arguing about biochemistry in general?

19:20Lewis Howes:I guess not.

19:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:No.

19:21Lewis Howes:Yeah.

19:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But.

19:23Lewis Howes:Is it because there's more of an emotional connection to food? Exactly.

19:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So it creates bias.

19:27Lewis Howes:Mm-hmm.

19:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:People are unaware of their own biases around nutrition, including the food scientists.

19:34Lewis Howes:Right.

19:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It is no... Think about it. If it was a non-emotional aspect...

19:39Lewis Howes:People wouldn't be arguing.

19:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Why would we argue?

19:42Lewis Howes:Uh-huh.

19:42Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It would be a unifying kind of a thing, like, hey, there's traffic on the 405. What is the solution for that?

19:48Lewis Howes:Yeah.

19:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But food science is not that. And you know what? This dates back to this is decades and decades and centuries old because it is emotional. And motion, nearly 100 % of the time, skews the science. I take patients in clinic and a lot of them come to me and are like, this is so confusing, this whole protein aspect. And right now, we're hearing that red meat is bad for you and we should reduce our protein intake. And I would say nothing could be further from the truth. And when you look back at the history, where did this come from? I mean, you can go back to World War II. And World War II, when we, when I wasn't around then, neither were you, but World War II, when rationing was put into place, they, well, number one, determined what is the amount of protein that we need to keep these soldiers alive?

20:45Lewis Howes:Just alive.

20:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Just, well, alive and healthy. Functional, right? So they had to figure out a way to feed over a million people. How are we going to do this? So the scientists got together and they looked at nitrogen balance studies. They're like, well, what's nitrogen balance? Okay, I'll get there. Well, what they did was, you know, we have to understand nutrition science, like you pointed out, is new. It's ever evolving. It was new then. 1940s. That's only 80-some years. Like, that's not that long ago. And in the 1940s, when they were just discovering that there were different kinds of amino acids, at that time, they really just thought about protein.

21:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And they looked at these nitrogen balance studies. Nitrogen balance studies, nitrogen is an essential component to the human body. And typically, we get it from dietary protein. And it's a very crude measurement. and it was extrapolated from and taken from animal husbandry, which is they were trying to figure out how do we keep and feed these animals the cheapest way possible, which meant high amount of carbohydrates and as low amount of protein as possible to allow them to still grow. They then brought the way in which they were doing that over to humans and typically young men, 18-year-old to 25-year-old men, and say, okay, well, how much protein do you need to just survive?

22:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And this is nitrogen balance. This is where, you know, in part, they started to understand that the amount of protein was maybe 0.8 grams per kilogram, which if you look at the literature in the 1970s and beyond, they estimated that they really missed the mark, that it was probably at least 20 % higher. but they didn't understand the ways to look at it, right? I mean, nutrition science is new. Yet 0.8 grams per kilogram, as we fast forward, during that time of rationing, they were feeding. And by the way, the average male, guess how much the average male weighed? Your mind's going to be blown.

22:54Lewis Howes:In 1940, in the 40s?

22:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, yes.

22:57Lewis Howes:Average male in America. 170 pounds?

23:03Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:143 pounds.

23:04Lewis Howes:Was the average?

23:05Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes. What about the average female? Must have been like 90 then.

23:11Lewis Howes:I don't know.

23:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:121 pounds.

23:12Lewis Howes:Okay. Really?

23:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Really small people.

23:15Lewis Howes:121 pounds is the average female. Okay. What's the average female now?

23:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Great question.

23:19Lewis Howes:We don't know. We don't know. We don't know.

23:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Probably, yeah. Who knows? But.

23:23Lewis Howes:What was the men?

23:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:143 pounds.

23:26Lewis Howes:That was the average size?

23:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's the average size. So they were feeding. That's tiny. It is tiny.

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25:36Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So we went through a period of rationing, 1940s. They were physically, they were moving more. Processed food wasn't totally happening. people were rationed on 3 ,000 calories a day. That was considered, people were hungry. 3 ,000 calories a day.

25:55Lewis Howes:They were hungry at 3 ,000.

25:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, it was the rationing books.

26:00Lewis Howes:Is that where they got 3 ,000 calorie diet now?

26:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Who knows? But if you go back and you look at some of these, I don't know about the new three, whatever this diet is, but looking back, as I'm writing my book, looking back at the history of why we are doing what we're doing, It becomes really important to see where we're repeating. So they were giving soldiers one pound of beef or one pound of meat a day at least. And they were rationed and sending the beef off to the soldiers, people to protect the world. Right? It's World War II. There is some evidence, which I was reading, like these older 1940 papers, that they were giving soldiers, as they were accounting these medical papers, what they were giving soldiers, they were giving an injured soldier 250 grams of protein a day.

26:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And they were reporting that their survivability and their ability to heal was increasing by 50%.

27:00Lewis Howes:Wow.

27:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Okay? in the 1940s. So there was some acknowledgement that dietary protein was so important and that it was good for you and it was valuable. In fact, it was so valuable that people were encouraged to dig victory gardens and go more vegetarian and go more plant-based to then send all the nutrient-rich foods over to the soldiers.

27:22Lewis Howes:Interesting.

27:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I thought it was really interesting as well. Well, then fast forward to now. Fast forward to now, 80 years later, what I am hearing as someone who is seeing patients and witnessing from a perspective that isn't, you know, bought into either way, right? It's not emotional. I'm not against eating animals, and I am not really, you know, like there's not a moral kind of a confusion for me in that way because I know how important it is for human health. It's almost fast forward now. According to the NHANES data, we are 70 % plant-based right now, and we are being encouraged by the mass media to consume less animal products.

28:08Lewis Howes:Why are some of the longevity experts who talk about mitochondria and telemeters and all these other things that they're saying, I guess they're saying that the studies are showing the more plants you have, the longer your telemeters. And if you're eating more meat, maybe it doesn't work as much.

28:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Let's talk. I'm so glad to hear the studies. Well, first of all, let's define longevity.

28:34Lewis Howes:Okay.

28:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Longevity is defined as what?

28:38Lewis Howes:living as long as you can i guess right living longer than expected okay so that and living

28:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:healthier okay so but now that's not longevity okay so now that is a health span issue and not longevity and i think we have to be very careful about how we talk about longevity are we talking about living six hours longer are we talking about living six weeks longer what does that mean and i I will tell you, as a trained geriatrician from Wash U, it is about the quality of your life.

29:08Lewis Howes:Yeah, you don't want to suffer for 10 years.

29:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Nothing is going to determine more quality than muscle. Because you must be able to do your activities of daily living. You must be able to be mobile. You must be able to do the things that you once had the capacity for your own autonomy. Now, and let's take a look at the longevity or whatever we mean by that. The one thing that we know and have control over directly is what we eat and how we move. In order to protect muscle, you need high-quality protein.

29:55Lewis Howes:This is in the literature. You can't build muscle without protein?

29:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:No, you cannot.

30:00Lewis Howes:It would be very difficult. Just carbs or...?

30:03Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It would be very difficult. There is an essential, a need. So protein is an essential nutrient. There are 20 amino acids, and of those 20, there are nine essential, and you must get those nine essentials. Now, I will say that of those nine essentials, you require...and I'm so glad you brought this up because in those early nitrogen studies and the RDA now, it is not taken into account that we have individual amino acid needs. It is looking at protein as a whole. That is incorrect. I just mentioned that there are 20 different amino acids. the information on nutrition as it relates to protein is archaic.

30:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When you look at the back of a label, you will see carbohydrates and carbohydrates will be broken down into sugars and fibers and all kinds of things. You'll look at the back of a nutrient label and you'll see fat and fat will be broken down into, you know, whether it's, you know, trans fats or saturated fats, whatever, you look at the label and it says protein. But not all protein is equal. Let me give you an example.

31:20Lewis Howes:What's the highest grade of protein and what's the lowest one?

31:22Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So eggs would be considered one of the highest forms of protein. Eggs, beef, chicken, fish, whey protein is the gold standard.

31:32Lewis Howes:Whey is?

31:32Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes. Not plant protein. No. And listen, so when we, plants are notoriously low in the essential amino acids. Really? They are. You can eat a diet that is plant-based, but you will require 35 % more calories. So for example, let's say you wanted to get your protein from quinoa. You would need six cups of quinoa to equal the amino acid profile of one small chicken breast. That is a metabolic disaster.

32:07Lewis Howes:Why?

32:08Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Because in order to stimulate muscle, you need the essential amino acids. Well, you need all the amino acids. But in order to stimulate muscle, you need one of the branched chain amino acids. Now, branched chain amino acids, they're leucine, isoleucine, and valine. Leucine is necessary in a meal threshold amount to stimulate muscle. And you're like, well, the listener is like, well, what does that mean? That means you need to get 30 grams at a minimum as you age to stimulate muscle tissue. Because you need 2.5 grams of leucine. And this, you know, I earlier talked about Don Lehman. These were some of his discoveries.

32:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:This is his contribution to science is that we have an amino acid meal need of leucine. Which eludes people. Let's say you are going to have 15 grams of a protein for breakfast, 15 grams of a protein for lunch, and then 15 grams of a protein for dinner, and the majority of the rest of your meal was carbs and fat. You will not stimulate muscle.

33:20Lewis Howes:So you need more protein to stimulate muscle.

33:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It either happens or it doesn't. From a nutritional perspective, you require a certain bolus amount at one time to reach the bloodstream. That is two and a half grams of leucine to begin this as you age. If you are eating sub-threshold, you will not stimulate the tissue nutritionally.

33:42Lewis Howes:What do you say to the people that these athletes that were extreme meat eaters then went plant-based? And they talk about how they're stronger, they recover better, they sleep better. What do you say to some of those cases that are out there of these athletes?

34:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I would say everyone is individual. And if they feel better, that's great. I would say that the science doesn't support that in that way from a muscle recovery, from a body mass, body size, skeletal muscle size. But again, everyone is individual. And I want to be very clear that I am not anti-plant. I'm not. And I am not at one extreme or the other. I do believe in eating high quality protein. I know its importance. and I think what's happened now and part of the reason I was so excited to come and talk to you is that what we need in order to have a healthy world is we need transparent conversations.

34:46Lewis Howes:So you're not extreme either way. You're saying where's the science?

34:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I am saying...

34:52Lewis Howes:How do we lean into the science?

34:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I'm saying what is the truth?

34:55Lewis Howes:Yes.

34:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:What is supported by the science? What do we know to be true? and then we can make decisions. Whether an individual is plant-based or an individual is eating a high-protein diet, which I believe in because I've seen it for decades and also it's in the literature, high-quality evidence in the literature, I believe that to be true.

35:16Lewis Howes:Sure.

35:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And what's happened now is...

35:19Lewis Howes:You're saying it's also hard to be a high-protein diet, plant-based.

35:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It is difficult and it can be done, but it needs to have very careful nutrient complex. Again, it's not just about a macronutrient. Food is a matrix. For example, in beef, there's creatine. There's components that you won't get from plants in beef. You cannot get it otherwise. There's no creatine in plant products. Really? No, it comes from meat, right? The bioavailability of iron is much higher in red meat, B vitamins, zinc, these are things that are what is offered. Taurine, these -

36:02Lewis Howes:They're not in plants.

36:03Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:They're just not in plants. So we have to be able to have intelligent conversations. And right now, what we hear is a lot of narrative and a lot of, don't need me because it's bad for the planet. Well, the reality is, in the U.S., if we care about global warming and we really look at what are the biggest drivers, we're looking at 80 % is industry, electricity, and transportation. This makes up a huge chunk, 80-some percent or more. Agriculture in the U.S., it makes up what? Maybe 9 %? Right. Wait, maybe 9%. Of that 9%, how much do you think is related to cattle or animal? Maybe it's 3%. So what are we talking about?

36:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So the statistics is just not, it is a lot of discussion. When the reality is if you look at this book, right? So there's a book here. And you take one sheet of paper and that's the entire world, okay? And then you fold it down to a postcard. Like let's say it's half that. So the entire world, the landmass is one postcard. You take that one postcard and you give me your business card, Lewis. And you say, okay, here's my business card. Now we tear it two-thirds and one-third. Okay? So we're now down to, we're talking about landmass. We're now down to one business card and two-thirds of that business card is called marginal land, which means we can't grow anything on it.

37:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It can only be used for cattle. One-third of that land can be farmed. So I bring the point up to this saying, are we looking at the right things? If you care about the environment and you live in Minnesota, then you shouldn't eat avocados. Why? Because of transportation. So those are ways that individuals can make a big impact rather than reducing high-quality nutrients. Because ultimately, you live in a beautiful area. You're on a coast, and I'm on the other coast. But it's the people in the middle that we affect the most. So if we tell people to go more plant-based, which they're already eating 70 % plants.

38:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:This is according to the NHANES data. Right now, people are eating 70 % plant-based. Who is it going to affect?

38:22Lewis Howes:Well, I guess if you're focusing on your vision, which is to help people live a healthier, longer life, you need more quality protein. You do. Based on the evidence. Yes. And so it's not about having less or more plants. is about having more quality protein to build skeletal muscle. If you want to eat more plants, eat as much plants as you want. Go right ahead. But it also makes you get the quality protein is what I'm hearing you say. Because that is one of the main factors to healthy longevity.

38:52Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And healthy aging.

38:54Lewis Howes:And healthy aging.

38:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And we need more protein as we age, not less. We actually require more protein.

39:00Lewis Howes:To build a muscle to stay healthy and healthy. To maintain it, to just keep it.

39:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So basically, if you don't stimulate that tissue, right, you're going to lose it.

39:10Lewis Howes:And it's harder to gain it back when you're 50, 60, 70.

39:13Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, I wouldn't know, but yes, yes. If we take the narrative that we are looking at right now, eat less protein, eat less red meat, do all these things. While you are young, you have a much greater margin of error.

39:30Lewis Howes:What about the inflammation or disease conversation around, I guess, way with milk, you know, milk products and dairy. I grew up drinking about, I don't know, eight glasses of milk a day from Ohio. I think it's the reason I'm a foot taller than everyone in my family because of the hormones probably in the milk and the beef and everything I was eating. But I also had a runny nose every day.

39:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So this is something separate.

39:55Lewis Howes:And it was like inflammation from the milk and from these types of proteins potentially. Or maybe there's a number of causes, but I got rid of the milk and I got rid of the inflammation. So that's just one source of protein.

40:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Sure. Right? And milk we know is really, I mean, I personally don't drink milk, but dairy is really important. Dairy is very bioavailable for the bones. A lot of people don't tolerate it. But to, you know, I'm not sure that we can equate that with inflammation. Okay. So you can equate that with mucus production. but perhaps not inflammation.

40:27Lewis Howes:Does any red meats cause inflammation?

40:29Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:There is no quality evidence to support that.

40:33Lewis Howes:Okay.

40:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And I will tell you -

40:35Lewis Howes:There's suggestion, but not evidence.

40:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So you bring up a really good point.

40:39Lewis Howes:Or clogging arteries or these types of conversation. Absolutely not.

40:41Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:When calories are corrected, absolutely not.

40:44Lewis Howes:What do you mean calories corrected?

40:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The biggest driver of inflammation and obesity is excess calories.

40:51Lewis Howes:Too many calories.

40:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, it's not protein, and it's not red meat.

40:55Lewis Howes:It's probably sugary drinks and just sugar in general. It is excess.

41:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It is not inherently bad if you have healthy muscle. It's not inherently bad.

41:05Lewis Howes:Because your muscle will be able to process it and just flush it out.

41:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So let's go back to red meat being bad for you. There was a series of papers in the Annals of Internal Medicine by a head researcher named Bradley Johnston. And he looked at a tremendously large number of people. And he questioned, well, should we reduce the amount of red meat that we're eating? And right now, I think on average, people are eating 1.6 to 1.8 ounces a day. Do you think that's a lot?

41:40Lewis Howes:It's not that much. That's like this much. Yeah, it's not much.

41:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Okay. So to say that we need, you know, so is this data true? is do we really need and believe these negative influences that we're hearing? So he went through the literature and he did something and put it through something called the grade system. The grade system is the global gold standard for evaluating evidence. It doesn't get better than that. And do you know what he found? that there was no reason for us to be cutting back our red meat consumption.

42:17Lewis Howes:Interesting.

42:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it created so many issues. When was this? This was in 2019.

42:24Lewis Howes:Okay. Pretty recent.

42:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:They went after him. People went after him. They tried to not get it published.

42:30Lewis Howes:Wow.

42:31Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:They were, people were so up in arms. Again, food science. Sure, sure. We should just call it, we should replace this with something else.

42:38Lewis Howes:Emotion. Exactly. Yeah.

42:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And they were so up in arms, and we have yet to see one randomized control trial with humans to support red meat being dead. It doesn't exist. There's a lot of epidemiology data talking about, you know, this is where all that information comes from. But epidemiology is not high-quality data. And we have many randomized controlled trials talking about the importance of protein, whether it's from Don Lehman's lab or Stu Phillips or Doug Patton Jones or Kevin Tipton. These guys are like people that have been looking at it or Heather Leidy. There are some really good researchers out there that are putting together information that's available.

43:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Sure. And again, it's not to say that plant is bad or animal is bad. The point is we must have transparent conversations. Yes. So if the evidence is in fact that this is bad, then we should, that red meat is bad or that protein is bad, we should be able to prove that.

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44:23Lewis Howes:Terms apply. This one's for all the TV lovers. My Entertainment from DirecTV gets you over 60 channels and Disney +, Hulu, and HBO Max all in one pack. Watch it all, but don't spoil it. Tell your friends to get My Entertainment, too, for$34.99 a month. Go to directtv.com slash genre packs and sign up today. New customers only. Service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required. Conditions apply to apps. HBO Max Basic with ads begins after DirecTV five-day trial. Learn more at directtv.com. Restrictions apply. And I guess the only thing I go back to is the blue zone, I guess, research of mostly plant-based vegans who are living.

45:05Lewis Howes:Is it, though?

45:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I was pretty sure that they eat. Some fish or something. I'm pretty sure that they eat protein. And I'm pretty sure that. Through meat or?

45:15Lewis Howes:Yeah. Really?

45:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, I haven't looked at all of it.

45:19Lewis Howes:I guess that would be my only thought is like, I don't know 100 % of it, but I know it was mostly vegetarian is what I thought. Dr.

45:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, but the question then becomes is how can you contribute that to one thing?

45:32Lewis Howes:Dr. Yeah, exactly. Dr.

45:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right? How can we say that...but also, we have randomized controlled trials to support the evidence in the opposite, that we know if you are aging that you need 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that is replicatable. That is in the literature. Do you know that if someone is 65 and up and falls, She has a 50 % chance of never walking again.

45:58Lewis Howes:Is it because of muscle or is it because of...

46:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, muscle.

46:01Lewis Howes:And because if you have weak muscle, then is your bones going to be a lot weaker, I'm assuming? Is it going to be hard to recover?

46:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, but you're definitely not going to recover the way that you should. Again, we have to talk. We have to go back to blue zones. Blue zones is epidemiology data. So we should be able to take that information and put it through the rigors of science. And the rigors of science support a higher protein diet for aging.

46:25Lewis Howes:If someone is above 60 or 70 right now and they're listening to this and they've been, maybe they haven't been well with their diet or they're working out at all. They're just kind of like living and a little obese and have some minor health challenges. What can they be doing right now if they're over 60 to try to live a better, healthier, longer life?

46:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, let's pretend they're not over 60, but we'll go there. Let's pretend they're 35 or 40 and they're slightly obese and have a couple number of health problems. And, you know, they're all in the, you know, because we're all in this together. What are we going to tell this person? Here's what I'm going to tell them. I'm going to say, okay, the first thing that we need to focus on is metabolic correction. And we're going to do that by optimizing your protein. So you are a, you know, what are they? they're probably not eating a ton and or maybe they're eating a lot of carbohydrates. I'm going to say, well, the first thing we're going to do is I'm going to say we are going to ideally, and again, they might not do this one gram per pound ideal body weight, which if this person is 150 pounds, it would be 150 grams of protein.

47:36Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That is high, right? That is on the higher end. So this guy might be like, I don't want to do that. I'm going to say, you know what? That's fine. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to focus on metabolic correction. So I am going to start you at three meals a day. I don't care when your first meal is, but that first meal, after you are coming out of a fast, is the most important. And you are going to optimize that for dietary protein. And the reason it's the most important is because they are catabolic, they are fasting. At that moment, if we get that threshold, that nutrition, that protein threshold right, you will stimulate their muscle.

48:14Lewis Howes:So what should be eating the first meal of that?

48:16Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So that could be, I would want them to hit 40 to 50 grams of protein.

48:20Lewis Howes:Really?

48:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And that could be a whey protein shake, which you could probably get a little bit less. It could be a beef patty. It could be eggs. It could be chicken and eggs. It could be whatever. whatever.

48:33Lewis Howes:Okay. 40 to 50 grams of protein your first meal.

48:35Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Just get that right. If the listener would do that for me - No matter how big you're - No matter how big or - that's right.

48:43Lewis Howes:40 to 50 grams. If you're 150 pounds or 250 pounds, just try to get in that range. Yeah.

48:47Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, listen, could it be between 30 and 50? Yes. Between 30 and 50 would be great. If you are older, if you are that 60 plus, the muscle goes through a normal physiological change called anabolic resistance. You want to push their protein a little bit higher. If you are younger like you, you could probably get away with 30 to 40 grams of protein.

49:11Lewis Howes:Okay. Do you want to... Does it matter if you work out first in the morning or fast for five hours in the morning? It doesn't matter. Just your first meal when you eat after you wake up, whether it's right away or 10 hours later, have protein.

49:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right. That first meal should be optimized for protein. And I would argue that if that meal is not around training, our target carbohydrate load, and if they're not training, would be 40 grams or less that first meal. So you keep the carbohydrates lower that first meal. The reason is, is it ends up being about a one-to-one ratio of, you know, if they want it. It would be less, right? Because anything really above the 50 grams of carbohydrates creates a more robust insulin response. And you don't want that for your first meal. You want that first meal to be very smooth and stable. And not only that, and Heather Leidy, who I'd mentioned earlier, has done some very interesting fMRI research that, you know, one of the things that protein does is it's very satiating.

50:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And I always tell patients not to worry about their strengths, but to plan for their weaknesses. And when you augment willpower by leveraging dietary protein, you plan for it. You're much less likely to overeat. So you nail that 40 grams of protein first, maybe a little bit lower carbs and some fat. Then that next meal is maybe four or five hours later, right? So you stimulate muscle. You now have robustly stimulated muscle. That next meal will be another, again, depending on what you need, I like to target around 30 grams at a minimum. Dr.

50:52Lewis Howes:Justin Marchegiani Yeah. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Okay.

50:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The data, you know, it's interesting. So a lot of the literature doesn't actually support much discussion on that lunch meal. It's really that first meal. And then, but again, if we're talking about maintaining healthy skeletal muscle, we're also talking about maintaining blood sugar, right? Compliance is really important. Protein, it's very hard to store protein as fat. There's a high thermic effect of food, meaning it takes more energy to utilize it. And part of the reason, I believe, is because it stimulates muscle. So it takes anywhere from 20 % of the food that you eat to actually, it takes 20 % of that energy.

51:35So if you're eating 100 calories of protein, there is some contribution to that.

51:42Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Then that last meal of the day, I would say I would make that more robust, again, that 40 to 50 grams. And any listener could do this. The younger you are, you can, you know, muscle is typically healthier. You can get away with a little bit less. The older you are, the more protein you need at once to overcome anabolic resistance. You know, skeletal muscle is fascinating, in case you were wondering what I really thought about it. It's actually a nutrient sensor.

52:14Lewis Howes:It senses our nutrients and it senses leucine.

52:19Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Senses what? Leucine, which is that branch, which is that amino acid. And that's really how we need to think about protein is we really need to understand that protein requirement as we age is really about a meal threshold. 24-hour protein is very important. And secondarily, having protein in discrete meals is incredibly valuable because if you don't, you won't stimulate your tissue. And as you age, that tissue becomes more marbled with fat. It becomes more challenging. The other thing is resistance exercise is another way to stimulate tissue. And this is where you get with a great trainer. I know I typically recommend between three and four sessions of resistance exercise a week.

53:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But again, having someone evaluate you as it relates to training. And then another thing that's overlooked is mitochondria. And that's really the cardiovascular aspect. And the current recommendation is 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity now. And I think as, you know, again, we're very split. people really into resistance, training, or they're really into cardio. But when we think about longevity, we must address both.

53:34Lewis Howes:Is cardio... When I think of cardio, I think more about people trying to lose weight.

53:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Right. That's not a great strategy.

53:40Lewis Howes:Is it helping you build muscle when you're just running and riding a bike?

53:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, not really. I mean, muscle to grow requires metabolic stress, requires mechanical Mechanical tension, exactly. Metabolic stress, ribosomal biogenesis, protein and calories.

53:59Lewis Howes:Then why do people focus so much on cardio? Is it for heart health? Is it for other benefits?

54:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I believe that, number one, it's very easy to do. You don't have to have advanced knowledge of training protocol. Machines and equipment.

54:11Lewis Howes:And that's hard.

54:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's hard for people. There is that barrier to entry. Cardiovascular, a lot of the literature, a lot of the data has always been done on cardio. Again, because it's easy, you know, you first use rodent models, then you transition to humans. But cardiovascular activity is very valuable as it relates to mitochondrial function, as it relates to energy, and there's a natural decline as we age. Again, aging doesn't get easier. But being able to be strong and capable and optimizing for dietary protein will be the ultimate in longevity. And there's so much confusion about the narrative that my fear is, you know, when you address it in your later life, you're missing this huge opportunity midlife.

55:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, they don't develop later in life. They start in your 30s. When I was looking at that participant's brain, when I was looking, we'll just call her Sarah, when I was looking at Sarah's brain, it didn't start then. And it started in her 30s. Dr.

55:18Lewis Howes:Justin Marchegiani From nutrition or from... Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yes.

55:20Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Dr. Justin Marchegiani From excess, from being overweight. You know, had she built muscle, it would have been a metabolic buffer. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Right. Dr. Justin Marchegiani You know, when you look at diseases of aging, it's not the aging. These diseases like Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, these start in your 30s. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Sarcopenia, which is the big one where, you know, sarcopenia is loss of muscle mass and function, you know, which is we see people get much smaller. That doesn't start then. It starts much earlier. So if you eat the way that you did in your 20s, you have no chance of protecting your muscle.

55:56The changes will be subtle until one day they're not.

56:02Lewis Howes:You just start shrinking and getting weaker.

56:04Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You have increase in adipose tissue. You now fall into the general category of one of the millions that are overweight. have high blood sugar, insulin resistance, you name it. And it's something that happens over time. And if we continue the conversation that is very distracted about, well, we'll take this, and we'll take this, and we'll do that, as opposed to do the foundational things that

56:35Lewis Howes:we have direct control over, which is train hard, optimize and prioritize for a protein-forward

56:43Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:plan, you do those fundamental things, everything else is gravy.

56:49Lewis Howes:That's it. So if you focus on protein and you're trained consistently, you should be...

56:55Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Able to protect your muscle.

56:56Lewis Howes:And it sounds like eliminate a lot of the health problems or risks that could come your way.

57:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:This is the ultimate in a muscle-centric approach.

57:05Lewis Howes:Because you don't see a lot of people with muscle getting really sick.

57:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, that's true. And if they did, their ability to survive, you can think of muscle. Yes. Muscle is the body armor. Muscle is an individual's body armor.

57:20Lewis Howes:What about for women who are like, well, I don't want to look that muscular, you know?

57:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That is, you know, it's so funny, right? It's like.

57:26Lewis Howes:When I lift heavy weights, I'm going to get big and bulky. It's the big thing for women.

57:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You show me one woman that that has ever happened to, that doesn't happen by mistake.

57:34Lewis Howes:Where they get big and bulky, right? It doesn't happen. You know how difficult that is? You have to be training for this. Absolutely.

57:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I think what's more impressive is the midlife muscle crisis. You know, people hit 40 and they're like, oh my God, what happened to me? What happened to my body? There are changes that happen to skeletal muscle. And that is really powerful and really important to address. You know, if you don't hit those meal thresholds, you don't stimulate the tissue. It's a non-negotiable.

58:01Lewis Howes:What about the whole conversation around fasting these days? Okay. So many people are focused on fasting or at least fasted windows of eating or 16 and 8 or spending two days fasting or 24-hour fast for longevity. Is there a benefit to fasting consistently or a benefit to fasting once in a while to help with overall health functionality and longevity?

58:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The idea, from my perspective, fasting is a tool. Fasting is a tool that helps maintain weight.

58:36Lewis Howes:But you shouldn't need it. It's not magic.

58:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's not magic.

58:39Lewis Howes:You shouldn't need it if you're just...

58:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:There are many other ways to implement stressors in the body that could possibly promote stress enough to help promote longevity. But again, the question is, what is the benefit? Could someone use time-restricted feeding? Absolutely. Could someone go through periods of lower protein? Absolutely. There is a stress response that can happen. does that mean that that is a way of life? Not necessarily. There's nothing wrong with eating in an eight-hour window, right? It does allow for calorie control. You can still meet your protein needs. You can still optimize for protein. I will say the older, you know, my dad, he's 73.

59:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Sorry, Dad, maybe you're 74. And he lives in Ecuador. He walks everywhere and he fasts. He won't get into a car if it is four hours or less, and he's going to correct me, he's going to be like, I think it's three. He will not, if he can walk there in three hours, he'll walk there. He has this cutoff, right? He was a mathematician by training. Yeah. Anyway, and he went through periods of fasting, really long fasting. When you are older, we must understand if you are going to fast and that destroys skeletal muscle, right? There's no free lunch, becomes much more difficult to get that back, right?

1:00:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It becomes much more difficult. So if an individual wants to fast, First of all, there's nothing wrong with time-restricted feeding. The 16-8 like you were talking about, eating in an eight-hour window, again, that's a tool for weight loss. As it relates to optimizing for skeletal muscle, can someone fast and optimize for skeletal muscle for two days or three days? I think that perhaps when I think about longevity, I would say there's a way in which you can implement all of these. but my primary focus would be to protect muscle at all costs.

1:00:40Lewis Howes:So your dad, my mom's early 70s, what recommendation would you have for him or her to be focusing on in your 70s then?

1:00:50Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He eats two very large meals with high protein. So he hits minimum of 50 grams.

1:00:56Lewis Howes:Is he lifting also?

1:00:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He does lift.

1:00:59Lewis Howes:Is it just more resistance bands or is it?

1:01:01Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He does a lot of push-ups. He does a lot of walking and he does lift, but he hates being inside. He's very much a, it's interesting. He went to Wharton and graduated top of his class, but the guy is like a mountain man.

1:01:13Lewis Howes:Interesting.

1:01:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He's a mountain man. He lives in Ecuador now. He lives in Ecuador. Go spend time. He like spends time in the jungle. He's cool. He's very cool.

1:01:22Lewis Howes:That's fun.

1:01:23Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:For him, he eats a high protein diet. He's very focused on longevity. He's very focused on mental health. He doesn't eat any processed foods, and he doesn't snack. So he sticks to those two main meals, high protein, eats fat.

1:01:41Lewis Howes:Why is it so hard for people to not snack?

1:01:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Habit. You have to train yourself.

1:01:48Lewis Howes:You have to train it.

1:01:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And this goes back to be prepared for your weaknesses. Nobody gets better if they're preparing for their strengths. Right. If you know that you are a snacker, then there are rules in place where you're not able to do it.

1:01:59Lewis Howes:Right. Sounds like you married a Navy SEAL. Oh, yeah.

1:02:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I did. You know what's really funny is that as I'm sitting here writing my book and I'm like, honey, you know, I have two very little children. I'm like, this is so hard to get this done. And he's like, well, honey, I'm like waking up at five to start writing before I then go train and then get the babies ready. He's like, well, you know, if it's important enough to you, you'll do it. You should just wake up earlier.

1:02:23Lewis Howes:Oh, my gosh.

1:02:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:He's like, you should just wake up at four. It's still hard. You should just wake up at four.

1:02:29Lewis Howes:It means you got to go to bed at like eight, right? Because sleep is just important for recovery, for muscle growth, for all these things, isn't it?

1:02:37Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It is, for brain function. That's when the brain cleans itself. That was, you know, when we were analyzing patients for risk of Alzheimer's, those kinds of cognitive deficits, one of the questions is that we always asked was, you know, that's part of a fellow's job is to run and participate in geriatric neurocognitive clinics. Do you sleep with your phone by your head? And do you get sleep? These are all risk factors for cognitive impairment and dementia.

1:03:04Lewis Howes:Really? Sleep with the phone right next to you? Do not do that. How many people sleep with it on their bed? Lots?

1:03:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Do not. You should not.

1:03:08Lewis Howes:Yeah.

1:03:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That is a bad strategy.

1:03:11Lewis Howes:Yeah.

1:03:11Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's a bad strategy.

1:03:12Lewis Howes:Do people sleep with it on the bed?

1:03:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It shouldn't be actually within four feet of your head.

1:03:16Lewis Howes:Four feet of your head.

1:03:17Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Oh, wow. Interesting.

1:03:19Lewis Howes:Maybe mine is right at four feet. Okay. I've got to move it out a little farther away. Yeah, how important is sleep for protein or muscle growth and, I guess, for protein to be able to be assimilated into the muscle?

1:03:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, we know that sleep is necessary for growth and recovery. Humans, you know, it's interesting. We don't necessarily know what happens so much when we sleep, but we know, you know, when you look at night chip workers, when you change that circadian clock. When I used to do rounds at the hospital, I would listen to a lot of the nurses that then had shifted to nights. They would eat the same and they actually gained weight.

1:03:57Lewis Howes:Oh, man.

1:03:58Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Because it changes the way in which glucose metabolism works. Everything, huh? Cortisol. They ate the same diet.

1:04:05Lewis Howes:The night shift has got to be the worst thing for people.

1:04:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:They believe it's a cancer risk, too.

1:04:09Lewis Howes:What was the biggest lessons you learned from working with people who were on their deathbed, really?

1:04:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:have really good relationships and care about your family. You know, it was so interesting to see that one of the majority of the patients, they weren't like angry. They had accepted it and they all wanted to see a family member. Wow. You know, they really cared. And it didn't matter if there had been gripes in the past. It was like, you know, life is so short and fragile.

1:04:48Lewis Howes:You know, they're ready to let it go and just be around.

1:04:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And so the biggest lesson is why not do that sooner? Just in general, you know, the things that we feel that are important, make them important.

1:04:58Lewis Howes:Do it now.

1:04:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah. And don't be so distracted. I feel right now individuals are very distracted from the things that are actually truly important. And it's the distraction that makes us miss the moment. And that moment is not just a moment within the dynamic of a family, but it's within, you know, the moments of health and comparison to other people. If, you know, really just tuning out those distractions and executing forward, I think is really important.

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1:07:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And muscle and protein. We got the paradigm of thinking wrong. That is a symptom of impaired muscle. We have completely missed the mark. And if we can prioritize muscle, we can change the trajectory of aging, we can protect people when we really talk about longevity, it's muscle that matters. And we are so far behind from understanding, evaluating those endpoints, that if we care, we must impart nutritional strategies and execute on them.

1:08:24Lewis Howes:if this is so important and really the main thing, why are not that many people talking about this? Why is it not talked about in general?

1:08:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's hard, right? It's hard. It is.

1:08:37Lewis Howes:Well, here's the thing. I mean, I remember, again, playing sports and growing up, it was all about protein and muscle. Right. That was what I was talking about, right?

1:08:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And that's where it stays and that's where it lives. Yeah. It is in this nebulous world of the 20s, flexing muscles in the gym, which is a mistake. That's where it still lives. And if we can understand that muscle is so much more than looking good in a bikini or looking good on the beach, that it is actually this endocrine organ and the organ of longevity. If we can interface the two, you know, like I told you before how it helps modulate and it makes an impact on immune regulation. We must protect it at all costs.

1:09:16Lewis Howes:Protect your muscle. Protect your protein.

1:09:18Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So why is it not talked about? I think because it is, I think for two reasons. Number one, we are so fixated on symptomology in medicine as opposed to root cause. And truly, muscle is root cause. It's difficult to measure. It challenges the paradigm of thinking. You know, there's that part. And then the other part is it is, then we talk about the food science is completely convoluted. There are narratives and agendas above and beyond what the average person is thinking about and what the average scientist or physician is understanding, there are much bigger players at work.

1:10:01Lewis Howes:And if someone is vegan, they can still be plant-based and try to focus on getting more protein.

1:10:06Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You can absolutely be vegan and do these things.

1:10:09Lewis Howes:And get protein, right.

1:10:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You must get more iron. You must get more creatine. You must think about how you're going to get your omegas and your fat-soluble vitamins and bioavailable nutrients.

1:10:19Lewis Howes:It's so funny you're talking about creatine because what was it? Dr. Andy...

1:10:25Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Galpin.

1:10:25Lewis Howes:Yes, he was on here.

1:10:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Andy is a phenomenal scientist.

1:10:29Lewis Howes:And he was talking about creatine. And it was probably the first time I heard about creatine since I was like 25 or something. And I was like, he was like, creatine is the supplement. He's like, if you're going to take something...

1:10:39Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It protects your brain.

1:10:40Lewis Howes:Creatine is for everything. And I was like, really? Yes. I was like, I feel like this is what we did in high school. You know, you just drank the creatine. But isn't that interesting?

1:10:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:The people that don't really need some muscle is very -

1:10:52Lewis Howes:We didn't need it because we had human growth hormone. We were just like - When you were young, exactly.

1:10:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:But there is this transition that happens where insulin is no longer a growth promoter. You don't get higher, you get wider. The hormones and these anabolic hormones decrease. We must account for that by optimizing for protein because you have to trigger that muscle.

1:11:10Lewis Howes:And it sounds like if you're doing this, you're eating more protein, you're training with resistance training and building muscle, you're going to burn fat.

1:11:21Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You will, yes.

1:11:23Lewis Howes:You're going to be burning fat.

1:11:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, you will be, yes. And you will improve body composition. Your body composition, you'll look better.

1:11:32Lewis Howes:You'll have more energy.

1:11:34Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You'll maintain your blood sugar.

1:11:35Lewis Howes:You'll sleep better. And it sounds like you'll create metabolic correction also when you're starting to increase this. And your metabolism will start to work in your favor by continually, I guess, burning fat. But really, it's not burning fat. It's just building muscle, which is, is it kind of integrating the fat throughout in a different way?

1:11:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:So building muscle in and of itself is a highly metabolically challenging feat.

1:11:59Lewis Howes:And it'll just naturally get the fat to burn away.

1:12:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And you will be training and you will correct for calories, right? So you're not going to be over-consuming calories. You optimize for protein. It's very hard to over-consume protein. Protein in and of itself is not easily stored. There are so many reasons to prioritize for protein. And I have to say, you know...

1:12:23Lewis Howes:Can you be protein deficient?

1:12:26Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Of course you can. Of course you can.

1:12:28Lewis Howes:And what happens if you don't have enough protein?

1:12:30Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, those are the times when we saw kwashiorkor, right? Kwashiorkor with the big bellies, this muscle protein wasting. There are subtle levels. There's all kinds of degrees of deficiency. You will utilize the skeletal muscle that you have. As you move into more depletion, you will find your hair falls out. Your hormones will go. You know, you might have fractures or bone issues. Your teeth, right, bone is made from protein, 40 % protein.

1:12:59Lewis Howes:Wow.

1:13:00Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:There are all kinds of problems that will begin on a subtle level.

1:13:04Lewis Howes:Protein and muscle. Protein and muscle. So what supplements would you recommend then? Creatine is one?

1:13:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I think creatine is phenomenal. I think fish oil is phenomenal. I think vitamin D, there are vitamin D receptors on muscle. I think that that's really important. I think having a great multivitamin. And someone's going to say, if you are...and I would say, if you are vegan or vegetarian having either an essential amino acid profile or adding in a straight branched chain amino acid mix of leucine, isoleucine, and valine to a lower protein meal, one scoop, five grams, would be very beneficial because now you raise that amino acid threshold. Remember, we're not just talking about protein in a 24-hour period.

1:13:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:We are talking about and advancing the conversation to a meal requirement.

1:13:51Lewis Howes:Every meal having protein.

1:13:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, every day consistently.

1:13:55Lewis Howes:Consistently.

1:13:56Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It's not, right? It's a daily need.

1:13:58Lewis Howes:A daily need.

1:13:59Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it's about at least getting those two meals corrected for higher protein.

1:14:04Lewis Howes:Now, what about protein shakes, protein bars, and just protein from food? Does it matter where you get it from?

1:14:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It doesn't. But remember, protein in a matrix whole food is phenomenal because, for example, we'll take beef because you're talking about creatine. There's creatine in beef. There's taurine. There's B vitamins. There's iron. Shakes are also great. If it's a plant-based shake, you need to make sure it has at least 2.5 grams of leucine or you need to augment leucine. Leucine is a supplement you buy?

1:14:39Lewis Howes:I would not.

1:14:40Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:It should be in there. You want to supplement all the branch chains because they deplete each. So if you just use one, then it doesn't totally work. You deplete the others. But again, remember when I told you about looking at the label, at the very end, it just says protein. But protein is much more than that one line. It's 20 amino acids. And we must account for those nine essential that we need. A branched-chain amino acid added to, say, a plant-based shake is doable if it hasn't been corrected for those amino acids. A whey protein shake, a protein bar, typically those are a little lower in protein, but there are great bars that hit at least 30 grams.

1:15:22Lewis Howes:So the powder in the shake is usually better.

1:15:24Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And also remember the quality of protein matters. A plant-based protein has lower amounts of those essential amino acids. So the way in which you overcome that is you may need a bar and a half, as long as your calories can manage that.

1:15:39Lewis Howes:What's the best protein powder out there? Whether it's, I don't know, it's a specific brand, but just like, is it whey? Is it, you know, isolate? Is it?

1:15:49Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I work with a company called First Form. They're amazing. Andy's great. Yeah. Amazing company. They make amazing whey. They make a natural whey, which is what I use and I recommend.

1:15:59Lewis Howes:Natural whey. Yeah. As opposed to an unnatural way?

1:16:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Just depends on what you like, like flavor-wise. Okay, yeah. So for me, that's what... No taste. Yeah, yeah. No flavor.

1:16:10Lewis Howes:Gotcha. Okay. But a whey protein is what you're saying is probably the better...

1:16:14Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, and for people that cannot tolerate whey, like you said, some people can't, that's where you would do a plant-based shake. There are other kind of animal-based shakes that are great, and you can try those. Sure. Just make sure. So collagen is not a complete protein. So I think collagen is amazing, but collagen does not count towards overall protein intake because it is deficient in tryptophan and extraordinarily low in branching amino acids.

1:16:42Lewis Howes:Is it good to throw in your shake then? Sure. Yes.

1:16:44Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, I always throw it in.

1:16:45Lewis Howes:What do you put in your shake?

1:16:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I put in, well, I mean, so I mostly eat my food. You don't take your food. Not usually, but I do put collagen in my coffee. If I'm having a shake, I'll do one scoop of whey and then one scoop of collagen or I'll scoop and a half away. I don't really do a lot of fruits early on.

1:17:05Lewis Howes:Could you do too much? Could I do four scoops and it's like, okay, now it's just like.

1:17:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I mean, your stomach might hurt and you'll use all of it. That's a myth where you absorb and utilize all of it. For a muscle perspective, you probably won't get more benefit or much more benefit over 50 to 55 grams. Got it. But it doesn't mean that it is a waste. It's not.

1:17:26Lewis Howes:Interesting.

1:17:27Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah. Okay.

1:17:28Lewis Howes:So if they say use one scoop, should you do a scoop and a half?

1:17:32Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Why not?

1:17:32Lewis Howes:Okay.

1:17:33Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Why not?

1:17:33Lewis Howes:You at least want 30 to 40 grams of protein. At least. A meal. Yeah. Why not? Yeah.

1:17:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And again, it's not the protein because there's, you could say, I just ate 30 grams of soy protein. That's not the same. It's the amino acids that matter. It's quality protein.

1:17:50Lewis Howes:What if we eat a lot of protein, but we never work out?

1:17:53Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That's a really not a great strategy, but I don't think that... I mean, is there a benefit to that? It will protect your muscle, but you should train, right? You should. Is there a benefit? Yes, because number one, like I mentioned before, protein is hard to store as fat.

1:18:07Lewis Howes:So it doesn't convert into fat as much. It's very difficult to store. Even if I don't work out at all?

1:18:12Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yes, it would be very difficult. But again, we're not just eating protein in and of itself. You're eating whatever it is. Sugar and carbs and everything else. You're eating all this other stuff. But I don't think that we should think about it in this dichotomous way. You should be resistance training. You should be eating your protein. And I think when we think about longevity and we think about overall health, we must shift the conversation to muscle.

1:18:37Lewis Howes:Okay. Well, I'm glad I'm working out. And I'm glad I'm working out eating protein. So you've got to do more of it. Anything else we should be aware of that you think is important to talk about? Or you feel like we've covered a lot of it?

1:18:48Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I think we covered a lot of stuff. There's a few things I would love to share with your listener.

1:18:53Lewis Howes:Go ahead.

1:18:54Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:I am launching the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon show. Okay. And the goal of my show will be to have these kind of transparent conversations. Nice.

1:19:04Lewis Howes:Okay.

1:19:05Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And it's really dedicated to the listener, and it's dedicated to their education and their understanding and really their strength.

1:19:13Lewis Howes:Where can they watch or listen?

1:19:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Well, they can go over to my YouTube. It's going to be a show like yours, like a dual show. So it will be YouTube and on all the Spotify, all that. When's it coming out? Well, I... Soon, hopefully. Yeah, it will be within the next month. Everything is set up. We did an amazing studio setup.

1:19:34Lewis Howes:That's great. That's great. If they follow you on social media, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Twitter, Instagram, or your website, drgabriellyon.com, then they'll get that information as well.

1:19:45Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And of course, if they would like to be a patient, they can apply to be a patient. On your website?

1:19:50Lewis Howes:Yep.

1:19:51Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Unless they know someone, we do typically do it by referral.

1:19:54Lewis Howes:Okay, cool. And so that's coming out. You're working on a book, so people can look out for that as well. That's a while.

1:20:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah, yeah.

1:20:02Lewis Howes:They follow you on social media. It's 2023. They'll stay up to date on all that stuff. How else can we be of support to you?

1:20:09Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:That just spread the message. I know that there are components to this that people will find a bit controversial, and that is not my intention. Yeah. My intention is that we just are having open conversations, that we can tone down the emotion and come together collectively. And that's, if we really want a healthy world, that's what it's going to take.

1:20:31Lewis Howes:Well, I want to acknowledge you for diving in on this topic because I don't think a lot of people are talking about protein and muscle like you are. They're not as passionate and as committed to this as you are. So I think it's really powerful that you're helping your clients really think about longevity in a way so they stay healthy, you know, and stay healthy in a long life as well. And definitely having muscle, having strength is the key that we know of to making sure that if you fall, you can pick yourself back up, that if you get injured, you can recover faster. So you're not just living, extending life and suffering, but you're thriving.

1:21:10Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:You have body armor. You have the capacity to live in extraordinary wellness. It's the ultimate in strong medicine.

1:21:19Lewis Howes:I like that. Yes. Well, I'm really glad that you're doing this work. And I acknowledge you for your mission and your service on this topic and everything you're doing with your clients. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth. but you have taken so much protein and you've built your muscles that you live as long as you want to live, right? And you're thriving. But for whatever reason, it's your last day on earth.

1:21:46Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Yeah.

1:21:46Lewis Howes:And you've created and accomplished everything, but you've got to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this knowledge anymore. Your show, your books, all this stuff is gone for whatever reason. But you have three things you can leave behind, three lessons or three truths. What would you say are those for you?

1:22:02Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Always stay committed to your cause.

1:22:06Lewis Howes:Okay.

1:22:07Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Always be committed to your cause. The second truth I would leave to my children.

1:22:14Lewis Howes:What would that be?

1:22:15Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:And that would be that they are perfect just the way they are. And the third truth is know exactly what you stand for.

1:22:24Lewis Howes:What do you stand for?

1:22:28Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:Excellence, integrity, commitment to a cause greater than myself.

1:22:32Lewis Howes:Yeah, that's great. Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

1:22:38Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:My definition of greatness is to make an impact and make individuals' lives better. It's ultimately to be of service.

1:22:50Lewis Howes:There you go. Gabrielle, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Yeah, of course. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

1:23:25Lewis Howes:I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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