“They Tried to Kick Me Out!” Whole Foods CEO REVEALS How to Live in LOVE When People BETRAY You

29:38However, as you become more conscious, it gets easier. Because it's like, imagine that love is the deeper reality, but we continue to block it through our judgments, through our anger, through our fear. I talk a lot about it in the book about we're faced with choices every day of we can either contract into fear and anger and judgment, or we can expand into love. And here's the thing. I'm going to give you one of the most important tips that's helped me. The past doesn't exist. In the next moment, you can choose love. And if you forget, that's okay. Because in the next moment, you can choose love.

30:22And if you make a judgment or you attack somebody, you say something cruel, it's in the past. You can let it go. And the next moment you choose it. And you practice being in the next moment open-hearted. And yes, stuff's going to happen. Think about it as a big game. And things are happening. These are all challenges for you. You've got to overcome those challenges. Yes, somebody just did something really cruel to you and said something really hateful. or betrayed you. It's like, wow, what an opportunity for me to learn here. This is incredible. What were a couple of the biggest breakdowns that you experienced, whether in business or life, or personally or professionally, from people that either did things to hurt you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, or financial breakdowns?

31:13What were a couple of those moments for you? Well, there were many, and I outline them in the book. So there were actually four separate coup attempts to take me out. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Four times. Of your own business. Yes, exactly. What was that like? Well, it, it, there was a sense of betrayal. The people that I loved and trusted, I call it in the Lord of the Rings, there's the ring of power and the ring of power. People are so attracted to, to wealth, fame, and power. Those things are seductive. And in the Lord Lord of the Rings, in that particular fantasy series, the ring was, it was very difficult to wear it and not be corrupted by it, right?

31:54It began to - The pressure, the ego, the pressure. Exactly. The weight. It's a metaphor for the ego. Yes. The ego wants to be, you know, it's in this competitive war against all. And so I think as I became more successful and wealthier and better known, a lot of people wanted that. They envied it. They wanted that. How did you navigate it the first time versus kind of like the other three times? Did you get better at navigating it or each time was painful? I got, oh, each time was painful, but I got better at it. And because remember I was using, I said that, you know, you forget. I forget. I go back into the ego.

32:32I contract into fear. I'm on the journey like we all are. And I don't claim to never, you know, get upset or fall back into fear. But what's different over time, Lewis, is I don't stay there as long. It's like, oh, yes, I just did it again. I contracted into fear. But instead of beating myself up for not being perfect, it was like, yeah. But now, this moment, I can open my heart back up and be back in the love space. And so it's like anything. If you practice it, you get better at it. So I've been practicing it. I'm better than I used to be. Right. Still not perfect. I am not perfect. So how did you navigate that first kind of big betrayal moment in business then?

33:16How were you able to keep your heart open while also, I guess, protecting yourself and your interest in your business? And how do you navigate those relationships with people that want to hurt you? That's what's so powerful about forgiveness. You know, one of the things that it took me a long time to learn is that when we hold on to a grievance against somebody, we're actually, it's kind of like this poison that we want to give to them. We're drinking it ourselves. That judgment and grievance is harming us. Right. And so once you realize, my God, you know, I got to let go of that. That's really holding on to that anger and judgment.

33:57It poisons your soul. So you have to let it go. And forgiveness is the way that you let it go. So everyone that I've ever felt like, you know, harmed me or hurt me in some way, it's like I've forgiven them all. It's like I wish them the best. I love them. I want them to be. I understand they were doing it for their own ego drive and it wasn't satisfying them, but they wanted things. And I just let it go. I forgive them. I don't want to hold on to those anger and that judgment. So it's a skill. You have to practice it. I'm not saying and I've completely mastered it. I don't I'm I'm not pretending to be a fully enlightened being every instant of every day You put set yourself up for that people are gonna show you lots of ways where you're far from You sure you got that lesson?

34:42Let me test you again. Let me test you again Um When was the time that you felt like your ego was the biggest during this kind of Multiple decade business journey the one that the one that hurt me the most the story it was back in 2000 and 2000. And we had started back when this was when the dot com boom was occurring and Whole Foods wanted to we jumped into it. We created something called Whole Foods dot com and then we changed it to Whole People dot com. My wife and I moved to Boulder and we were doing we were doing it there. And we were we created a team. We raised venture capital money. And then that dot com boom turned into a bust and it and it failed and we had to shut it down we sold off we sold off pennies on the dollars what we had left and um meanwhile while i'd done that i'd asked a really close friend of mine that was the number two guy in the company president of the company to that to be so i want you to sort of run whole foods while i'm focused on this but that only went on for about a year and then i said i want to come back i'm coming back to austin and I'm taking back over this leadership role.

35:57After the bust happened. Yes. He did not want that to happen. Really? Well, he liked being in charge. And meanwhile, since I had failed, a couple of the directors didn't really want me to come back, and they wanted me to go. If you failed at this thing, we don't want you back failing at our thing. Pretty much. And so I was at my most vulnerable, you might say. And the betrayal was it was somebody I loved and trusted. And then there was a conspiracy, right? and some of the directors with this man, with this leader. And so, you know, this is because we're talking a lot about love. This is a great story of how I sort of overcame that.

36:38So the board calls this meeting in Florida where all my leadership, and his name is Chris. Chris is going to be there. The board's going to be there. My other executive team members are going to be there. They're all going to be interviewed by the board. So, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. I may not survive this. So I go, one of the things I do whenever I would travel, I'd always want to visit our stores. So I go visit the Fort Lauderdale store. And while I'm visiting the store, I had this, you know, my heart opened up. And my soul spoke to me and it said, this is your purpose. This is what you love.

37:18and you've not lived up to your own standards here. And so what the message was coming across that there was nothing I love more than this and that I loved all the customers, I loved all the team members, I loved everybody and that I didn't want to lose this and I was willing to commit and learn from my mistakes and do better going forward. I sort of was making this, meanwhile I'm walking around in this complete open-hearted love space. Guess who walks in? Chris. Wow. So I said, hey, listen, could we talk for a minute? Just randomly. Yeah, randomly. Synchronicity. Yes, synchronicity. Or is there synchronicity in those dreams?

37:57Maybe. So we go back into the store team leader's office, and I said, Chris, you and I have been close friends for 16 years. It's not too late. We can stop this nonsense right now. If you're willing to, we can go back to the way it was, and we'll just let this be in the past. And he said, it's time for you to go, John. You've had a good run here. And he said, you can go out with honor or you're going to get thrown out on. Oh, my goodness. And I said, it doesn't have to be that way. And he says, that's how it's going to be. Oh, no. So you had this beautiful dream. Hey, we're going to come together and everything.

38:35I'm going to be back in my position. But I was still open to my heart. The point is, I was willing to forgive and we could move past it. And he wasn't. No. But then I go into the board meeting. I am still wide open in my heart. Yes, I'm in love. I'm just loving. And I talk about how much I love Whole Foods and how much I love Chris and how the company's going to go from here on. I had a whole vision of where we were going to go. And I was told later, many years later, by the lead director, he said, John, you were going to lose that vote. and you came in there and you want everybody but one director over.

39:20Wow. And he said, and when Chris got in there, he went into like a 30-minute rant about what a terrible person you were, you know, cataloging all your failures as a leader. And so later on, another director told me, he says, well, John, you know what I did after, I wanted to know what went on there. So for many years after that, they wouldn't tell me, it was a secret, But I would get these directors one-on-one and take them out to dinner, pour them a couple glasses of red wine, ask a few questions. Time had passed, and I slowly built the whole story up. And so Chris had gone in there and ranted, and one of the directors said, well, we weren't sure we still wanted to keep you as a CEO, but we weren't going to put him in because he was crazy.

40:05He was like so angry that we couldn't put him in. And so we decided that you seem to have a vision for the future, and we thought we should give you another chance. They put you back in. They forgave me. You went from you to be kicked out of the company completely, but because you went in with a clear vision and an energy and an attitude towards love and forgiveness and appreciation and gratitude, and they didn't remove you, they actually made you back in the seat. Yes. Wow. And there's another important message here, which was I made a commitment when I was touring that store that I was going to be a better leader, that I was going to channel more love.

40:51And it was like my soul was saying, you either have to step up or get out. And I made the decision to step up. Conscious capitalism came directly out of that experience. That's when it began to take place. And what are the key what became the key tenets of conscious capitalism from that moment on? Yeah. Well, first of all, of conscious capitalism to explain to the listeners here, I got to say first what is not. It's not an economic system. It's not a corporate governance system. It's simply a management philosophy. OK, so it's because it's controversial now. You know, the whole stakeholder thing is being attacked.

41:29And and so it's just it's just the better way to manage your business. And so the four pillars of conscious capitalism, first, every business has this potential for higher purpose besides just making money. Business has to make money, but that's not why it exists. A good metaphor is like my body has to produce red blood cells or I will die. But my purpose is not to produce red blood cells. Right. Similarly, business has to make a profit or it dies. Yes. But that's not why it exists. It exists to create value for customers, and the higher purpose is in that value creation. For example, Whole Foods' higher purpose is to nourish people and the planet.

42:10We're about selling healthy food to people to help nourish them so they can be the healthiest versions of themselves. Google's higher purpose is to organize the world's information and make it readily accessible. Amazon's higher purpose is to be the Earth's most customer-centric company. These purposes can change and evolve over time, but these have been the stated purposes of these companies. What was the first pillar? The first pillar is that it's this higher purpose. Business has a higher purpose. Business is condemned. I mean, ask, what's the purpose of a doctor? Is it to make money? To heal.

42:47Yes, but they make a lot of money. Right. Teachers educate. Architects design buildings. Engineers construct things. They all have some type of higher purpose that is in service to other people. Well, so does business. It's the enemies that have made it into it. It's just about the money. If you go to a party, a cocktail party, you ask people randomly, for example, what's the purpose of business? They'll say, what do you mean what's the purpose of business? Make money. It's like, no, that's not right. It's not the purpose of business. It's to create value for customers. Profits come from that.

43:21Profits are not the goal. They are the result of creating value for other people. And if people could see this and articulate it, the hatred and dislike of business would definitely be toned down. Why do you think so many people hate wealthy individuals? Because they're stuck in that, well, envy, but also stuck in that paradigm that if somebody has more, somebody has less, rather than seeing that's not true. business is creating value for other people and it's it's if you people don't understand history of where we were for example if you go back just 200 years ago 200 years ago 94 percent of everyone alive on this planet lived on less than two dollars a day wow 94 percent 85 percent lived on less than one dollar a day the average lifespan was 30 the illiteracy rate 88 percent of the people alive on the planet couldn't read.

44:17That's 200 years ago. It has been science and capitalism that has lifted that up so that today the average lifespan is pushing 80 across this planet. And those numbers have reversed on the literacy. Now 90 % of the people across the planet can read. The average lifespan has gone up and the average income, the abject poverty of people that make less than two dollars a day it's dropped to like six percent well it's it's and it'll be ended because as long as we continue to allow science and free markets and capitalism to lift people out of poverty people don't understand that they don't know their history they don't know where we were what about people that think that you know we should have more i guess socialistic economies or you know people should just be getting paid the same amounts no matter what job they're at you and the government should be funding these things.

45:10So socialism's not new. I mean, in the last 100 years, 41 countries have tried socialism. 41 failures. Really? It doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? But there seems to be like this utopian dream that it should work, but why hasn't it worked? Well, because a socialistic country is one that, like the Department of Motor Vehicles, is running everything. You have these giant bureaucracies. You don't have the entrepreneurs that are being creative and innovative. They don't have the power to do it any longer. You've got bureaucrats telling everybody what to do, like when you go get your driver's license renewed.

45:53That's what socialism is like across everything. You get in lines to get your food. You get in lines to do everything. and you have these government officials determining everything, and you no longer have the entrepreneurs, you no longer have innovation, you no longer have creativity, you no longer have this upward flow because we've damped it all down. So is there any countries that are doing it well or semi-well right now? Doing what well? Like socially, you know, communities or? No. There's no successes ever. Really? So the ones that are usually held out are the Scandinavian countries. But have you ever heard of...

46:31You hear about like their happiness levels are way higher and things like that. But those are not social... None of those Scandinavian countries are socialist. Really? Yeah. Sweden was back in the 60s. But if you look at the Economic Freedom Index, which measures economic freedom, all the Nordic countries are in the top 25. And three of them have more economic freedom than the United States does. Denmark, Sweden, and Iceland all have higher degrees of economic freedom than the United States does now. Remember when the COVID lockdown occurred? Sweden didn't even lock down. They were open. Exactly.

47:05Living their lives. People say, we ought to be more like those Nordic countries. And I say, you're right. We should be. Do you know what the corporate tax rates are in Sweden? Uh-uh. 21 % lower than it is in the United States. Wow. Did you know that in school choices, Sweden has 100 % school choice. Every parent gets to pick what school their kids go to. Really? Yes. There's so much more freedom in Scandinavia than people realize. So they're thinking about the wrong things. Now, they have lower corporate taxes. They do have higher income taxes on the average people. And that's what they're focusing on.

47:44But you know what? I'd take the higher income taxes if you'll do the rest of it, too. You can't just cherry pick it and take the one part that you want, higher taxes on those rich people. Sure. But get rid of the school choice, get rid of the lower corporate taxes, get rid of... Health care stuff, probably, yeah. Yeah, the health care stuff is what those high personal taxes are paying for. Uh-huh. Yeah. Oh. It's a longer feel to talk about the Scandinavian countries. They're just not socialistic, although they have a social welfare state that's more developed than ours. Wow. Okay. So what's the, what's pillar number one?

48:24The second pillar is that all stakeholders matter. And the stakeholders are the ones that have a stake in the business, right? But I always say there's two tiers of stakeholders. They're the ones that have not only a stake in the business, but are also trading with the business. So like customers are trading with the business. Employees are trading with the business. Suppliers are trading with the business. Investors are trading with the business. And communities are trading with the business. But say other stakeholders like critics, journalists, government officials, policy labor unions, they may not be trading with the business, but they do still have a stake in it.

49:03So all stakeholders matter, but they don't all matter equally. They're not all equally important. But once you see that the stakeholders matter and that they're somewhat in, they are interdependent, they're connected together, you begin to manage the business more consciously. It's like I'm creating value for not just of our, not just for our investors, but I'm creating value for these customers, for our employees, for our suppliers, for the communities that we're part of. They're interdependent. And then you begin to think about it differently. I ask the question, what's the win-win-win solution?

49:36Yes. What's good for every stakeholder? and what's the strategy where all can win and if if you have a stakeholder that's losing it's not a good strategy it'll actually it'll come back to bite you down the road right you've set up a negative feedback loop pillar number three that leaders that the leaders should be more conscious and by that I mean they should be conscious of the higher purpose they should be in service to the higher purpose and to all the stakeholders instead of just lining their pockets. Right. I mean, you see some sometimes people spend years going up the corporate ladder and they get to finally get to be the CEO for five to seven years.

50:16And all they can think about is how do I get as much money as possible? That's not conscious leadership. That's not what conscious capitalism is about. It's about people that are more servant leaders, that are serving the organization, serving all the stakeholders, serving the higher purpose of the business. And finally, it's culture, conscious culture. Human beings should flourish. Working for a business should be something where humans, everybody that encounters the business should be touched in a positive way. Business can be this amazing force for good in the world when it's managed in a more conscious way.

50:52And everybody it connects with feels better about everything because the business is. And so that's a culture. So it's purpose, stakeholders, leadership, and culture all done more consciously. That's conscious capitalism. When did you start to feel like you were earning more in abundance financially? Like what season of the business were you like, wow, all this energy and effort and this level of service and love and being there for stakeholders and team and customers and everyone involved, like it's actually, I'm seeing the fruits of my labor financially as well. And so when was that season starting for you?

51:35That was a gradual thing. So, I mean, like, and again, this is, the book gets into some detail about this, but when Renee and I started out, we were so poor that we moved out of the co-op and we moved into the store which we weren't wasn't legal for us to live there yeah it wasn't zoned for that we lived it was an old house we lived on the third floor of this house it was an office we didn't have a shower or bathtub or anything we actually took showers in the hobart dishwasher come on yeah wow well i mean you know we were young that's awesome yeah it's adventure and we took 200 a month out of the business so we were probably getting you know we're working 70 80 80 hours a week, so we're far less than a dollar an hour.

52:20And, but we didn't, you know, it was fun. We're loving it, yeah, it was an adventure. Exactly, and I remember when we got, we moved Safer Way to Whole Foods, and the new store was successful, we started getting paid$800 each a month,$800 a month. They were like, wow. And I was thinking, oh my God, I'm so rich. I'm rich. And I was getting by on a little moped, I said, I'm gonna buy a car now, I'm gonna buy a car. bought this used RX-7. And I felt so wealthy making$800 a month. But then what happened is the business continued to grow. And I suppose I didn't really feel super. I felt wealthy when in 1992, 14 years after we started the business, Whole Foods did an IPO.

53:02We went public. And I didn't have that many shares because I didn't have any money when we got started, but I had a little bit. And I did the math on the first day of the IPO and I was now worth$7 million. I thought, oh my God, I'm a millionaire. This is unbelievable on paper. Right. So I think that was the first time I became conscious of the fact that, wow, I'm, I'm, I probably don't ever have to, I'm going to keep working because I love it, but I probably don't have to, if I didn't want to. Wow. And then, And the big change for me was in 2006 when I decided I have enough. I'll never have to worry about money ever again.

53:42I have enough, generational wealth. And I just stopped taking any compensation then. Really? I've never taken any. I've never taken anything. As CEO, you stopped. Stopped taking any money at all. Stock? Were you taking stock still or no? The stock options that I would have received were donated to our foundations. Wow. I had enough. and it's been that way ever since. There's this interview I saw with Jim Carrey, I think it was a year or two ago, where he was promoting, I think, his last movie. And he said, it was a virtual interview, he said, I think I'm retiring. And the interviewer said, no, like, you're too great.

54:21We need you, like, we'll miss you. And he goes, you know, I'm going to say something that I don't think any celebrity is willing to say. and that is I've done enough, I have enough and I am enough. Love it. And so when you said that, it kind of reminded me of him, you know, his message. And he's like, I love my spiritual life. I love my art, making art every day. And he's like, unless there's some script that really pulls me that I really want to explore in the future, I think I'm done. And I think it's interesting because in a world where so many people want constantly want more and when things are hot and they're building it's like you can keep stacking the chips and saving for a rainy day even if you have generational wealth you could keep earning more and you're justified to as the leader and the visionary and the ceo to receive compensation for the service and the value you're creating in the world yes that's interesting that you decided not to i guess for the last 12 to 14 years, right?

55:26Since 2006, so that'd be 18 years. Oh, 18 years, yeah. So, but the thing was that for me, that was one of my clearest demonstrations of that servant leadership. And I'm serving the organization. I'm serving the mission. I'm serving the purpose. So there's a great story that I'm going to tell you in the audience that some will have heard it, but it's such a great story. So the two great writers, Kirk Vonnegut and Joseph Heller, were invited to this billionaire hedge fund party. And they're around there. And Vonnegut always being a little bit of provocateur. He's kind of needling Heller because Heller wrote Catch-22.

56:06And he says, so Joe, this guy makes more money every day than you will make for all the books you've ever sold or ever will sell. He makes it every day. What do you think about that? Heller thinks about it. And he says, you know what, Kurt, I have one thing he'll never have. And Kurt says, what's that? He says, I have enough. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Why do you think so many people feel like they don't have enough? I think that that's that ring of power, it's the hungry ghost, it's the ego. you can never have enough of what you don't really want. I mean, you think you want this. You think wealth will lead to happiness, or if you're more famous, people will love you.

57:01If you have more power, you can get your way. These are very seductive things. When what we really want is we want more love in our lives. We want more connection. And those other things are distractions from them. You can view them as tools if you understand what they are and they're not the master. We think by having those things, we'll feel more loved. Yes. But you know what you oftentimes have if you have a lot more money is people envy you. You don't have more love. In fact, you have more people hate you because you're wealthy. Right. If you have more fame, people want to be you. and they may want your autograph and whatnot, but in general, a lot of people don't like you because you have more fame than they do.

57:49You're in this competitive relationship. You may not intend it, but that's how they oftentimes see you. So what we want is, if we want that more love, we want more connection with people, those things can be tools or they can be addictions. Most people get addicted. They can't get enough fame. They can't have enough money. They can't have enough power. You see it happen all the time. And it's one of the things that you see in all the movies and television shows is a billionaire that's trying to get another billion. I've seen I've taught I'm not going to name anybody. I've I've known plenty of billionaires and I've and I'm not even close to one.

58:27And these guys, they compare themselves to each other. It's that Forbes list. And they might be worth five or six billion dollars in there, but they're not. they're comparing themselves to people that have you know 20 or 30 or 100 million billion like i got to get there yes exactly and instead they're not satisfied they're not happy they don't have enough and i've and think about how you have all these famous actors and celebrities and they're constantly trying to get more celebrity more fame uh they date each other not just fake fake relationships to get more fame yes exactly and um it it doesn't satisfy the soul and what if you what ends up happening like if you have so much money you have to now have to have security guards because your kids might get kidnapped or you might you know you you're not even free any longer now you have to have some bodyguards around you all the time or if you get super famous same thing people are always asking you for autographs asking you to sign this or do this or and you start to lose your freedom and power is not any different so those things past a certain point don't enrich our lives but they trap us they create more problems they create more problems as you started to become more famous as a an entrepreneur a CEO as Whole Foods brand became more famous and more well-known around the world and you started to put out more content and books and all these different things and speaking, et cetera, and become connected to famous people and famous billionaires and powerful people.

1:00:03What was the biggest, I guess, challenge you had to overcome in your rise to fame, success? How did I resist those temptations, so to speak? Because I remembered who I am. And I remembered who everybody else is. We're all, there's utter equity because we're all the same being. We're all part of the one self. And so I'm not better or more important than anyone else. I'm just on this different path. I'm waking up. My job is not to become more famous or rich or more powerful. My job is to extend more love in the world and help other people to connect to their hearts and they extend more love. That's the game I'm playing now.

1:00:46And that's what my new business, Love Life's about, I might add, is to help people be the healthiest, kindest, most loving versions of themselves. If someone's watching and listening right now and they're saying, you know what, I really want to generate more financial freedom for my life. And if you could give them one piece of advice on creating financial freedom from your perspective, what would that be? Create more value for other people. People don't understand that. Money is, you get money by creating value for others, and then they trade with you. And so one of the challenges in business I'm always putting to my team is like asking this question again and again and again and again.

1:01:31How do we create more value? What are we not giving our members or our customers that would enrich their lives and make them happier, make them more fulfilled? And so as long as you're thinking about and you're constantly improving your offering to create more value Then you're going to become wealthier Those go together and people separate those out and then they forget Yeah, and it's almost like you're gonna become wealthier Maybe not financially right away, but you'll feel more enriched right away Well, you also become more financially well right time if you're true creating true value exactly Young people ask me this kind of question all the time and I said well how are you going to create more value for other people?

1:02:11Because that's where the money comes from. It's not about doing the bare minimum and doing the least amount. It's how can I add the most value to someone? And that never ends. Even when you're creating value, you're still asking the question, how can I create even more value? As long as you're focused and think about that, you're making other people's lives better and you're becoming wealthy doing it. That is a win, win, win game. Yes. But a lot of people don't want to put it. It feels like work for people. It feels like that's hard work. So you have to do this for years until it pays off. I don't see the results right away.

1:02:44Well, that's a bad attitude. I know, but that's what a lot of people think. They want the money now. They want the freedom now. Well, nobody, the world does not owe you a living. You will create wealth by giving to others. That's what it's really about. You create value for others and then they trade with you. If you're not willing to do that, well, then you're never going to have very much money. And how important is having a positive attitude towards generating wealth? Does that help, you think? Yes, of course it does. Absolutely. I mean, some people hold themselves back because they have guilt about money.

1:03:19Have you ever felt that? Guilty about earning money? No. Well, when you see people that have a lot less or struggle or friends, family, or society members? To be completely honest, this is something I struggled about when I was younger. until I really saw that the wealth that I was creating was something because I was creating value for other people and I didn't have to feel guilty about it anymore. So you did feel guilty in the beginning a little bit. Well, yeah, I took on the values the culture has that if you have wealth that maybe you stole it, maybe you took too big a piece of somebody else's pie.

1:03:56And I had to get my own thinking squirt around that I wasn't stealing from anybody else. I wasn't a crook. I wasn't greedy. I wasn't stealing. I was creating value for people, and they were exchanging with me. Yeah. And so they were getting better, and I was getting better, and that's how the whole society advances. That's how progress is. Yeah. Wow. Now, the tricky thing there sometimes is sometimes we create, we give people what they want, but it's not good for them. That brings us into a whole other ethical plane, right? Give me an example. Like if you make money and you build financial wealth, giving people what they want, but it's not good for them, what happens to you?

1:04:44Good question. I'm not sure I have the answer for that one. I have to think about it. But I would say it stains you a little bit, particularly if you're conscious. Your soul or? Maybe a little bit. So, I mean, there's good examples. I mean, tobacco is the best example. People want tobacco. It apparently makes them feel good. but it destroys their health and so if you're in that business you're giving people what they want they're trading with you voluntarily but you're destroying their long-term health yeah so that would be a business I would not want to be in yeah but then you could say the same thing concur with junk food for example of course or alcohol or you know whatever yes people people off or any kind of drug that that is addicting and uh people do want it and they trade with you i mean pizza for me it's like i want pizza but i know it's not the best thing for me it's like you know i could eat it every day though if i wanted it right but it's not going to make me healthy yes unless there's some you know really healthy pizza then it's not pizza anymore it's some but people are going to keep eating pizza of course by the way there are always there are healthier pizzas out there.

1:05:50Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. So that's the tricky thing. And I think it's a fair question. You have to ask ethically. You know, my very first store, for example, was a vegetarian store. And it didn't sell coffee. And it didn't sell alcohol. And it didn't sell meat. It didn't sell sugar. It didn't sell meat. No cheese. No cheese. Well, we did sell cheese. We were lacto-ovo vegetarian. but we did almost no business because the market wasn't big enough and when we when whole foods when we moved from safer way to whole foods merged with another company another small business like ours and started to sell meat started to sell seafood started to sell um alcohol coffee uh and some sugar um the business took off wow and so it was like you it's the tricky thing is is that Oh, man, this is challenging.

1:06:41You have to meet the market kind of where you find it. But then Whole Foods was always trying to urge people to healthier options. To healthier options. Maybe you can give me some advice on this because for 11 years of running this show, I've turned down so much money. I don't know if for good or if it's just stupidity. But because I don't drink alcohol, I've never been drunk, and I'll have like a Bailey's on ice for Christmas, right? It's like just sip on it. That's about it. But I don't believe in promoting something that I know is more harmful than it is good for most people. So we've never had advertisers that sell alcohol.

1:07:17And they want to give a ton of money. Sure they do. They want you to bless it. Of course. And, you know, it's like different stuff like that or, you know, other gambling things or whatever it might be. It's like I'm trying not to endorse something that I want to use. But like you said, there's a market for alcohol, meat, cheese, processed box foods at your stores that maybe you didn't have originally on. But it's like, is that a bad thing? Is it a good thing? Is it like you're still serving and adding value, but it's a value really serving people's souls if they're making certain choices? Is that our choice to decide for them?

1:07:55You know, how do you grapple with that if it's against your values, but not your customers' values? Well, so first of all, you did phrase all that perfectly well. And by the way, there's not a right answer. I can't give you the right answer. You have to find that answer within your own soul and be okay with it. So I think that you know within yourself when it's appropriate and when it's not appropriate. And you have to come to terms with your own values and where you'll make exceptions. Yes. And if those exceptions are justified, it's hard to be completely pure. And make money. Well, that's tried.

1:08:39To a certain extent, that's true. It's true. So but you can, you know, I'd be a priest. Right. That's so this is a this is some of the I wrestle with these questions all the time with, you know, I had the safer way than Whole Foods. And it's, I have another saying that you should remember this one because it's a cliche, but it's very true. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Perfect is the enemy of good. Yes. You have to sometimes ask, is there more net good that comes from this? Because if you're perfect, but nobody does business with you, then you haven't done any good either. Yeah, and you have thousands of employees that you're helping their livelihoods, and you wouldn't be able to serve and give jobs and opportunities in a happy place if you weren't able to sell these things.

1:09:27One of the reasons business is judged all the time is because business is more pragmatic. It makes compromises to serve customers. Remember, we're trying to create value for customers, and they're trading with us and exchanging, and they want things from us that may not be good for them. But they're so I'm trying not to force my values on everyone else. If someone want, you know, I actually gave up alcohol two and a half years ago because of my Apple watch. I was my because I have an app called auto sleep. And I noticed I started to I wanted to get better sleep. So I when I got a good night's sleep, I looked at everything that went into it.

1:10:06And first thing I discovered was exercise. You want to sleep well, get a lot of exercise. That's going to give you deep sleep, longer sleep. The next thing I realized is that if I eat too late, it interferes with my sleep. If I eat too much, I eat too late. So for me, I need to eat earlier and not as much at dinner, lighter dinners. But the third thing was alcohol. Any time I had even one drink of alcohol, my deep sleep went to zero. I got none. And instead of getting like seven and a half hours of sleep, I got six hours of sleep. And the next day I didn't feel as good. So then I started, I did this experiment costly because, you know, I didn't, I kind of liked drinking.

1:10:46It was fun to do with friends and stuff, conviviality. But the facts were clear. If I want to sleep well, I'm not going to have any alcohol. I haven't had a drink since. Wow. But I reserve the right that someday I may sacrifice a good night's sleep. Sure. But so far, I'd rather have a good night's sleep than have a drink. Well, it's going to impact your long-term health and your lifespan and your healthspan and your energy levels and your memory. Also true everything absolutely you're gonna become more cautious you're gonna become more loving It's quite hard to wake up with less sleep and it can be more forgiving and loving it is Austin if you feel bad, it's harder to be loving and forgiving you get you're more impatient.

1:11:24You're more snappish Wow, that's interesting. So you've had to I guess would you say you've had to make certain compromises over the years or would they not be called compromises? I mean these are really good questions. I'm trying I'm trying to bring it for you. Yeah, so So, again, I don't think there's a right answer. There's the right answer for you, wherever you're at. And if you're going to feel terrible about something, don't do it. It's not worth it. And so people will. It's not worth the money. It's not. People will, but people have to draw that line. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that, because I, you know, I've been a vegan for 21 years, and people are always apologizing.

1:12:05Yeah, sorry I'm eating meat at this dinner. I always say that, listen, I don't, you eat whatever you feel is appropriate for you. I'm not going to judge you because you eat differently than I do. And that, you know, so our judgments are the problem. And if you're going to judge yourself. I said that about alcohol with people too. I'll be out where people are drinking and it's like, I'm not going to judge you, but I'm not going to be out all night where people are drinking. Also, I'll leave eventually. I'll tell you, I'll tell you a funny story on the alcohol. Cause my wife, she doesn't drink. She's never drank anything, never had alcohol in her life.

1:12:36and I used to ask her I said Debra how come you don't you don't ever want to hang out with my friends you know and she said well John it's because your friends all drink and you know you guys think you're getting funnier but actually you're getting stupider it's boring yes it is after a period of time it becomes boring and and she says you don't notice it because you're right along with them but when I stopped drinking I started hanging out with them I had to come home one night and I said, you know, you're right. It's true. All my friends, they think they're funny and clever, but they're stupid.

1:13:07And when they're drinking. Yeah. After two drinks, the person I'm talking with usually doesn't become funnier. No. It becomes more exhausting and like, okay, they're like, it's just too much. So it's like, if you're going to have dinner and someone's having a cup of glass of wine, cool. But at that point, all right, let's leave. Let's go home. I've gotten to your place. It took me a long time. In fact, I wish I'd stopped drinking many, many years ago. It was part of my family all drank. Sure, sure. It's culture. It's culture. Yeah. John, this has been powerful and loving all these stories. I'm curious, you've mentioned your wife a few times.

1:13:40What has been the greatest lesson she's taught you about love and business? So in the book, I get into some detail about my wife. And from the very first day I met her on a blind date, I had a little voice tell me that she was more conscious than me. And my ego freaked out about that. I said, no way, I'm older. I've had more experience in this way. And then as the first date wore on, it became increasingly clear. I'd never been with anybody that was this conscious before, this loving. Well, she didn't drink, so that was a tell right there. That's right, exactly. I didn't drink that night either.

1:14:16And so we ended up, you know, we got together. And although I can tell you the story in the book is very much worth reading. I call it the woman in the dream because I had had a repeated dream about her. You know, the thing that she has taught me about love, she has a saying that I practice or try to practice. And it's very powerful. She says, John, don't overcomplicate this. It's not as complicated as you think it is. It's really simple. Just love everyone all the time. Wow. What about people that wrong you or hurt you? Don't differentiate those people. Wow. Just love them too. Just love everybody.

1:14:58But don't you have to create boundaries sometimes? Yeah, sure you do. It doesn't mean you don't love them. I mean, people make this mistake that if you're, they think love, if you're love, you're weak, people are going to take advantage of you. You know, you've got to be tough and hard. And somehow their love is this, it's been, love is powerful. Love is strong. You can be very powerful and strong, fully masculine, fully powerful and loving, and nobody has to take advantage of you. You do draw your boundaries. Like, no, I don't think that would be appropriate. I mean, people ask me for favors all the time.

1:15:33And I just very lovingly and kindly say, yeah, no, I don't think I can be able to do that. I'm sorry. I mean, you still stay in your heart. It's about where your consciousness is at. It's not, as my wife has said many times, she said, you know, John, you can just, you can be kind to people. You can be loving to people while being firm and saying no. Those are, it's not weakness to, to, to say, it's not a weakness to say, you're not saying no or drawing boundaries does not mean you're not being in your heart or being loving. Right, right. Yeah. You can still be loving and strong. Yes. Yeah. In fact, if you're not strong, I question how loving you really are.

1:16:18Yeah. You got a lot of great stories in here. It's called The Whole Story, Adventures in Love, Life, and Capitalism. I want people to go grab a copy of this book, give it to a friend, check it out. Excited about this. You also have a new vision, endeavor that you've been working on called Love Life, love.life. If they want to go to the website and check it out. I looked at it today and I was like, man, I wish this was closer to my home because this is like the ultimate health sanctuary, it seems like. Can you share a little bit more about that too? Yeah, I'm so excited about Love Life. It's kind of the continuation of my own higher purpose, my own life dream, so to speak.

1:17:01We've opened it, but it's a soft opening. It's here in the L.A. area. It's in El Segundo. And our grand opening is going to be August 10th and 11th. You ought to stop by then. Awesome. About the first 20 years that we had Whole Foods Market, Louis, people don't know how bad grocery stores used to be. And so they'd come into Whole Foods and they'd say, gosh, this is amazing. I've never been in a place like this before. And Whole Foods has had this effect over time on other grocery stores. They begin to copy us in many, many ways. We had a, we had a, we just changed the grocery industry. We really did.

1:17:38So when people go into Love Life, like I've been touring people around and friends have come by and they go in, it's like, wow, I've never been in a place like this. this is incredible. Why has no one ever done this before? I think that's what people are going to say for many years to come, the first time they go into Love Live. And it'll also be obvious, and they'll ask that question, this is such a good idea. Why isn't it happening? What's the vision behind it, and what is it? So what is it is that we have this, we took over an old Best Buy. It's large. It's 45 ,000 square feet located next to a Whole Foods market that is one of their best stores in in Southern California.

1:18:16Wow, that's cool. I had this advantage of knowing all the best stores in Whole Foods. So you can get the real estate at the right places. I know, exactly. So you come in and we have a healthy restaurant. It's not a plant-based restaurant, but it's what we call plant forward. So you can have bowls and salads and you basically decide on what kind of protein you want on the bowl or the salad or the handheld or whatever. That's open to the public, but members will get a little discount in the restaurant. And then we have, then you check in and we have this state-of-the-art fitness center. We're kind of into biohacking.

1:18:51We've got a lot of biohacks built throughout here with the type of equipment we're using, the way it can accelerate workouts from power plates to all kinds of different recovery modalities for exercise, for cryotherapy. We have six cold plunges set at 40, 50, and 60 degrees, depending on where you're at. We've got hyperbaric oxygen chambers. We've got pulsing electronic microcurrents. We've got lymphatic massage suits people can wear. We've got a huge sauna, huge steam room, five infrared saunas. We've got all these recovery modalities. We have three indoor pickleball courts, which are, I think, kind of state-of-the-art.

1:19:37We've got a Pilates studio. We've got yoga studio. We've got a physical therapy studio. Everything that has to do with wellness and thriving, we're going to do. We're going to do acupuncture, chiropractic, Ayurvedic medicine. And then we have a state-of-the-art spa where you can get massages or you can get Rolfed or you can get a facial or you can get an exfoliant scrub or whatever. It's not a medical spa, so you can't get Botox there, for example. Right, right, right. And then we have a medical center, and that's kind of the most important part of what we're doing. Lewis, when do most people go see a doctor?

1:20:15When they're sick. Exactly. Not preventative. Exactly. Our vision is the doctor's job is so that you never have to see a doctor. You don't get these chronic... People don't realize the things that kill Americans, heart disease is number one, cancer is number two. Then you have a stroke and autoimmune diseases. Infectious diseases are way down the list. I mean, COVID spiked it up for a little while, but now, you know, it's tuberculosis is not a big killer any longer. The flu, pneumonia, these are still killers, but they're not, you know, they're usually not in even the top seven or eight for killers.

1:20:51So it's chronic diseases. And it takes a long time for chronic diseases to develop. But if you can catch it early and prevent it. Yes. So it starts out, the idea being that you'll come in, you'll become a member of Love Life, and then we'll start out with a battery of tests on you. We need to get your baseline established. We're all on a health journey. We could all be healthier than we are. We just really don't even know where we are. So it starts out by finding our baseline and then working with the doctor and with the wellness coach and depending on the type of path you want to go down to create a precision, individualized plan for you and then track it with wearables.

1:21:28and with further testing so we can see whether you're making progress or not. And so on the medical way, we have these three different paths people can go down. I know which path you would go down. The first path is if you have a chronic disease or you're on your way to developing one, we want to put you on the healing track. We want to heal you. You can heal heart disease. You can reverse it. It's not a death sentence. You can reverse it, and you can certainly prevent it. Diabetes, type 2 diabetes is... You can reverse it. Reverse it. You can do it pretty quickly, actually, if you're willing to make dietary lifestyle changes.

1:22:04Same thing with stroke. And most autoimmune diseases are also reversible. I mean, but we now live with autoimmune diseases increasing, but there are strategies to reverse those diseases. And so that's the first track, healing. The second track, which is the one I know you'd sign up for, is maximum performance. How do you get to be... Exactly. your absolute fittest peak strength peak endurance do the VO2 max we'll set goals we'll increase that the third one is for aging baby boomers like myself longevity how do we all play movement yes how do we how do we increase the the health span and the lifespan if you ask people question would you like to be lived to be 100 the general answer is hell no i don't want to be decrepit right it's like well what if you aren't decrepit what if you're just as physically active as you are right now and you have clear mind would you want to be 100 then yeah sure okay that's the longevity program yes so um did i did i mention the pickleball i think i did didn't i so anyway we have these customized medical we have a concierge option amazing but the whole idea is that to help you be the healthiest version of yourselves we're also going to be doing emotional and spiritual work with people so we're going to be doing meditation we'll be doing breath work Wow and we're gonna have an emotional program as well that we're developing right now so help people don't you know most people suffer from PTSD they just don't even know it they don't have to been in the Marines and go to Iraq or Afghanistan we had things happen when we were kids yes Traumas.

1:23:48Traumas. And there are ways to work through those traumas. That breathwork is one way to do it. If psychedelic therapy was legal, we'd be doing that. And it's legal in Oregon and Colorado. So if we had sinners there, we'd be doing it there. But there are other things that we can do, other modalities. And we're interested in all those things. So we really want to help people become great. We want them to become the best version of themselves, whatever that may be. help them achieve their goals and their dreams that's amazing so that's love life of life and so if people go to love.life they can see what this is all about there's memberships they can go explore it and yep www.love.life that's amazing yeah are you gonna be expanding into other cities too or in LA to start you know we I live in Austin so the question is well why are you going to the first one in LA and it's like you know what if this idea won't work here it won't work that's That's right.

1:24:43LA is the most advanced market probably in the world for what we're trying to do. People want to be healthy here. They want to look good. They want to feel good. They spend money on health. Exactly. This is a very, very awake place. So this is the best place to prove out the concept. It's exciting. I'm going to check it out for sure at some point. The whole story is the book. Love.life is the new venture. John, I have two final questions for you before I ask them. John, I want to acknowledge you for your journey and the lessons that you're sharing here. But the way you show up in love and in service over the last 40 plus years in your business, in your career, and in your life, I just think it's really beautiful to see and experience leaders leading in a different way.

1:25:29Where most people feel like it has to be win-lose, you're all about the win-win. Where most people are living in fear, you're living in love. And so I acknowledge you for living that life. Obviously not perfectly, and I'm sure you have breakdowns, but constantly remembering who you are and living in that space. So I acknowledge you, John, for the beautiful man that you are. I'm grateful that you're here. Lewis, I feel like you're talking to a mirror there, dude. That's who you are. Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. I hope we just stay connected after this. I've got two final questions. This one is a question called The Three Truths, something I ask everyone at the end of the interviews hypothetical scenario okay you get to live as long as you want you know you're part of love life so you live well into your hundreds and you get to create and be on the journey and do whatever you want for the rest of your life all your dreams do come true in reality and in the lucid dreams that you have everything it all happens for you yeah um but for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario on your last day you have to take all of your work with you.

1:26:37This conversation is no longer here. The books you create, the businesses, for whatever reason, it's gone. So we don't have access to your information or your content anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons. And this is all you would get to leave behind to the world. I call it the three truths. What would those three truths be for you? So follow your heart. Love everyone all the time. Follow your higher purpose. Final question, John, what is your definition of greatness? My definition of greatness is becoming the very best version of yourself. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:27:23Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you, and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.

1:28:07And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Bye. Bye.