Unlocking Love: A Deep Dive into Trauma, Trust, and Transformation

27:02I know you've talked about this before in here, but how did you, for those that didn't hear this in a previous interview, how did you navigate this as you were evolving, changing, growing, developing in your 20s, 30s with your family dynamic? Not in your intimate relationship, although that has evolved and changed as well, but let's start with the family dynamic before we talk about intimate dynamic. Yeah. It was really challenging in my family, coming from a family that was very boundary-less, codependent. We had a very unified family identity. I was kind of taught growing up that family is everything with this idea of putting family, family needs first, even going back to this concept of selfishness.

27:43So all of that was kind of ingrained in my belief system and very dynamically, like I was sharing when we began, showed up in how I showed up or how little I showed up in my relationship. So as I started to become aware and see all of the moments where I wasn't giving myself space. And it was glaringly present in my relationship with my family that I was living actually in quite close physical proximity. By this point, I had moved home to the Philadelphia area. They were living right outside of Philadelphia. So I had endless opportunity to be at family dinner on Sunday or my mom's standard doctor's appointment with a lot of health issues that continued with my mom until her old age.

28:19So saying that to say there was a lot of the same dynamic happening at home. And I was awakening to the possibility of and necessity for me of creating some more distance, of not being endlessly available, of beginning to set new boundaries. And for the better part of several months, I would try. I would try to decline invitations. I would try to decline phone calls and not be immediately available. And I say try because it was always met with. A running theme in my family was when there was distance, and especially contact, immediately because there was so much health trauma that happened, health, you know, concerns and worry and anxiety, the immediate belief or worry would be when someone was out of contact for an unpredictable amount of time, it must be because something terrible happened to them.

29:08Are they in the hospital? Are they sick? Is something wrong? So there was a history of fear. History of fear. Which would create this - Hypervigilant monitoring of contact. Interesting. When I didn't call, for instance, on the regular, you know, weekly phone call, it was, you know, is everything okay? Just tell me everything's okay. and I would call at a very particular time frame up until this period of time where I was like wait a minute you're only doing that right to placate this kind of anxiety cycle you don't actually want to be calling in this moment yes I want to contact with my family but I didn't need to have regular contact every three days to tell them that I was alive right right so saying that to say I try to put up boundaries to create separation to create distance and space for me to begin to honor what I wanted and needed by this point I was building a practice.

29:55I was in a committed relationship. I had other things that I wanted to be putting my time and attention to. It was always met with this fear, this worry that would escalate into, I mean, I would get texts like, Jesus Christ, Nicole, just tell us you're okay. You know, we're getting worried. We're going to call hospitals, like endless. So I came to the really difficult decision to make a break and to take, I always kind of start to say, ask for space, but I didn't really ask for space. I more or less told my family that I was going to take space away from the family unit that I would be unavailable for any sort of obligation or anything that for the foreseeable future.

30:33And because I wasn't, I didn't trust myself to communicate to them in person. I was so afraid that when my mom started to cry or my dad became upset because my mom was upset or my sister was devastated because her and I were very trauma bonded in a codependent relationship trying to navigate my mom's health, I didn't trust myself to stand in my boundary. So I took the opportunity to write a very long email expressing things that I hadn't fully been able to share with them in terms of what I was coming to realize and how things in the past had impacted me and end it with that statement that I was taking time away.

31:09And I didn't know how much time I would want to take or need to take, nor did I know how they would react to my request. I mean, I was very much aware of the possibility that they would be so devastated and hurt that the door wouldn't be open on the other side of it. But at that point, I knew I'm probably from that deeper, intuitive place. My heart was telling me that I did need more space than I was able to create. So it ended up being the better part of, I think, 18 months before I started to, you know, really get curious about what they were where they were at. I had built a lot of self-trust in that 18 months, meaning I was getting more confident that I could engage with them again.

31:49And if the dynamic was exactly as I left it, I was gaining more confident that I could continue to maintain my boundaries and to, you know, live into the relationship dynamic that I wanted, regardless of what they were unable or able to do. And very gratefully, not only did they email me back near immediately, they let me know that they had been in family therapy and individual therapy and all the different types of therapy. since I had ended contact with them. And while it was very devastating, they, on some level, were appreciative of the opportunity that it gave them and us to kind of look at things newly.

32:24We re-engaged contact over several family therapy sessions, which felt very safe to me because I wanted to have a contained conversation, not knowing essentially what I was walking into. And I signed online for that first Zoom session, and I saw my mom, my dad, and my sister for the first time in eight months. And we had some difficult conversations and had some future-based conversations where I was able to kind of acknowledge what I wanted and needed in the relationships moving forward and intended to create for us. And since then, it's just been really a gift in a lot of ways. We've been able to not only reorganize as a family, we've been able to separate.

33:03That has actually allowed us to deepen and build deeper, actual, real now, authentic connections, which has been really beautiful.

33:16you know I started a healing journey of 30 for those that aren't aware of their emotional traumas and also those don't have tools in a healthy way to to to navigate those what would be the process would you say let's say give it a framework yeah it's a healing trauma is it like a if you could simplify it not that you can but it's like there's four steps to healing trauma three steps one be aware two like because it's really hard to do it on your own so i'm going to read you the chapter titles okay because this is the journey yes it's my this is this is my journey from recovering from trauma in that process i share many many methods and tools that one can use immediately and also introduce the therapeutic practices that changed and saved my life.

34:07And in introducing those practices, I actually give ways that you can do them in real time so that you can say, oh, this was really soothing for me. Or I just listened to Gabby do some IFS with Lewis. I want to look further into IFS. But the journey looks to me like this. And then I think we all have our own individual journeys. But my hope in this book and the intention here is to help the reader, one, know that they're not alone. And two, know that there is a guided path from trauma to profound freedom and inner peace. There's no way I would put my face on that cover if I couldn't stand behind that.

34:41Okay. So here we go. So the first chapter one is become willing to become free. Willing to become free means you can't even open this book if you don't have a desire. To want to be free. To want to be free, to look more closely, to even just have a mustard seed of hope that there could be a better way. How does someone start the willingness process? Well, if they're still listening, they're willing. Okay, good. You're going to have a curiosity, you're willing. If you're here, you're willing. And even if you tuned into this episode, you're willing. Because I'm sure there'll be trauma somewhere in the title or whatever you decide.

35:20But it'll be something that's going to be an acknowledgement. Yeah, there's something in that for me. Many, many, many more people are willing these days than ever before. I think that if I'd written this book five years ago, I'd have a half the audience that I have now. Right. I mean that. Okay. For this specific content. Chapter two is become brave enough to wonder. So in my case, I literally didn't remember and had to be brave enough to wonder what was there. And in other people's cases, they just have to maybe wonder, not that they don't necessarily remember what happened to them, but to wonder what could be behind these triggers.

35:59What could be some feelings behind these triggers? What could be, I did a podcast with somebody the other day, and she was like, I have, she's like, my co-host has so much trauma and she's so open about it. And she's like, I have no trauma within five minutes. We were like the neglectful father and the, this, and the, you know, like, it was just like instant and everybody's got it. Everybody's got it. So you just have to become brave enough to wonder. and it might be a little t but it becomes big t over time what was interesting she's like i guess i just have little t little t and then she started to describe her story we were both like that's big t trauma so um chapter three is why we run so what is it what is the reason that we're running why are we running and recognizing okay we have this trigger we have a feeling behind it we have a reaction to it and then what could it be is it just so it's so painful for us to face it That's why we run most of the time.

36:50That's right. It's just so hard for us to what? Mentally, emotionally understand it. Underneath all of the unresolved traumas, big T, small T, from our past is the belief system that we are unlovable and inadequate. How, and we did not, you said beautifully that now little Louis has big Louis helping him process this stuff that he wished he'd had when he was little. But when we're young, we don't, And if we don't have a caretaker or a primary care caretaker that has a secure attachment to us, helping us in those in those young moments to feel safe and seen and soothed and secure, as I talk about later and I'll get into that.

37:32Then we literally have to rely on the protectors, all those storylines that we build up, the parts. yeah yeah the challenge is i mean how many parents have tools are healthy in their own emotional so how do they how do you raise a kid who's healthy when so many people are struggling with their own challenges read the book yeah i'm so serious because then we get into well if you fast forward to chapter nine it's about reparenting yourself but so much of this book is if you go through this book you are you will be a better parent yeah without a shadow of a doubt i mean i've got a whole i've got a chapter in here about hiding behind the body that we have impermissible rage locked up in our back pain in our headaches in our gastrointestinal issues and our insomnia eczema and i talk about the psychosomatic effects of the mental disturbances that have not been resolved and how they affect the body and then speaking about shame and then going even further and ifs and all the somatic work that we can do and then it carries on so i take you through this is the playbook.

38:37Yes. This is the playbook. And now one thing I'm really cautious of with the reader is not every chapter is going to be right for where someone is right now. For you, you could pick this up and be like, yeah, I could do all of that. Or I've done half that. I'm going to do more. And for Marta, it's the same. It could be somebody on the street could be like, okay, I just have to read this right now and just take it in. Yeah. I can't even get started. I got to come back in a year to do the exercises. Now, okay, so once we're aware and once we have the willingness and we're starting to wonder and look at some of these things and we say, okay, here's two things from my past that I haven't been willing to tell friends, partners, husbands, wives, spouses, parents, like I've neglected to talk about these things.

39:15They're so shameful. I'm so afraid to talk about them. Let's say it's one thing, two things, whatever. What is the next step? Once you become aware of your trauma and you know there's something you want to heal, is it, well, there's a number of different therapeutic experiences you could go through. Here's a few to try. Is it everyone does it differently? Some people are more introspective and they do journaling prompts. Others need to speak to someone. What are the best ways to heal? And really integrate the healing. Because I think it's, again, I don't think it's like I'm aware and I'm healed.

39:48It's like you've got to integrate the practice. And every time you're triggered, can you breathe and respond differently? Integration is the word, actually. It's the word. And, well, like I said, everyone's going to resonate with different methods in this book that are appropriate for them at this time. You can trust your own internal system and intuitive force to know what's safe enough for you today. You'll feel it in your body. So for me, I wasn't going to be able to do the somatic experiencing, the body-based work until X period, like two years ago, because that was when I could feel safe enough in my own body and almost back in my body.

40:30Like I would just departed my body and I was like back in my human body. What somatic experiences? You mean like just body work or physical work? So Essie, which is somatic experiencing I write about in this book, it's invented by Peter Levine, is built on the premise that trauma is the inability to be present. And when we have deep-rooted trauma, yes, it's activated in our thoughts at times, but primarily it's body-based. So we have these triggers that then send... Stored to the body. The body keeps the score. Correct. So they send these messages, these triggers send a message to the brain that says, like, fight, flight, freeze.

41:17And so what happens as a child is whatever you were unable to do, like in my case, let's say I needed to push someone off of me. That became, I mean, I was not able to complete that, that full blown, you know, so fight, flight, and then it froze. Right. So if you freeze in time, you're, you're stuck, that, that energy gets truncated in your system and you become stuck in the neural loop of fight, flight, you know, and then, and then you get stuck and then fight, flight, it's stuck, you know. and that repetition repetition and so the beautiful process of of somatic experiencing is about no storyline it's not about this that what happened where you were you it's all about the body and going right into the body going right into the presence of the body and allowing the body to show you what it needs to do to fully reprocess the experience that's powerful and so in some cases it's very slow right so it could be like if you wanted to punch somebody it's like a really really really slow movement.

42:18And I give, and this is body-based work. So the practices that I give in that chapter are also things that you can do right now to start to ground your body. So a heart hold, like putting your right hand on your heart and your left hand on your belly. And actually, interestingly, try this out. Put your right hand on your heart and your left hand on your belly. How does that feel? That feels good. Okay, switch hands. Left hand. Does that feel better or worse? Different because I'm used to putting my right hand over my heart. So not as soothing. Not as natural. There you go. Okay. So it's important.

42:50I just learned this. I interviewed Dan Siegel and I was doing this and he's like, well, you put the right hand on your heart, but I did the left. And he's like, 70 % of people put their right hand on their heart and they feel that safety and the rest kind of do the left. So you have to check on which side's right for you. But the heart hold or a head hold, these practices are really profound for settling your nervous system. uh breathing in for two strokes out one long stroke if you're feeling overly anxious and activated so

43:23uh tapping eft which you've talked about tapping on the gamut point so there's a point between your ring finger and your pinky finger and if you're in that stressed out place and you're getting in the loop tap i am safe and tap and just repeat i am safe i am safe a power pose like standing like superman you know superwoman that can change your nervous system so these practices are really body-based practices for letting your system settle in the moment and then of course i say in the book if you want to go further find a somatic experiencing therapist and here's how yes and and all of the methods that i was guided to for my recovery were all spiritual therapeutic practices i can say this because i'm not in the clinical space but i I believe that they're all extraordinarily spiritual, the specifics.

44:11So EMDR, which is eye movement to sensitization and reprocessing, that's designed, again, to help you reprocess that loop. So once we figure out which therapeutic experiences are best for us, because it's going to be different for each one of us, what would you say, can we fully heal something? How long does it take? Is it based on the trauma and how long we've said it's stored? is there hope for people to say I don't have this trigger for the rest of my life yeah I feel like peaceful well let me ask you this things happen I don't want to be reactive let me ask you this in general how do you feel incredible yeah yeah I feel good me too yeah but I for 25 years I've felt a lot of inner stress you know inner inner conflict so thank you to the 25 years for all that it offered you to get you to where you are now right but you feel awesome yeah so do I so while it's been a good committed devotional practice we are living proof that there is a guided path from trauma to profound freedom and inner peace absolutely we're living that right and it doesn't mean that we don't still have triggers it doesn't mean that there isn't like more of the crystal to shine doesn't mean that i still don't go to therapy every single week and sometimes twice a week.

45:27But because I want to continue to care for and honor and respect all of the parts of who I am. Yeah. I mean, I come from the sports background, which you know, and I'm a big fan of having accountability for your goals, right? If I'm talking about sports background, it's like, and I know I can't do it alone in athletics. So why try to do it alone in my emotional growth or my mental growth, my spiritual growth. I can go pretty far on my own, but I think it's just good to have the accountability for whatever that looks like for people. I'm not saying they need therapy every week or they need to invest in something, but it's good to have accountability however you find it.

46:11I agree, yeah. I think it's really powerful. It's been powerful for me. It's one of the reasons that the 12-step program works so well. It's because of the fellowship. It's because you have a sponsor. It's because you have meetings. People are looking for you. Where is that person today? I just got a text message from one of my friends who I've been sober. we've been sober for 16 years he's been sober 17 years and I was the first first person I met in AA and he texted me today and he's like check it in you're still good yeah check it in how long were you in AA for I'm still in AA really yes so once you started you never stopped some people stop so is that once a month is that once a week what is that well really depends on who you are and what you need right so I I go to meetings now you can go to zoom meetings I go to meetings in person sometimes but mostly zoom since since the pandemic unfortunately right right is it hard for people who start at aa to not need it anymore or you kind of like well i think that can you transcend that i guess you can move into a different type of program you can move into a different type of therapy there's plenty of people when they get long-term sobriety that they start to feel less resonant with some of the meetings and things but it's suggested and i think recommended to stay close to it because you don't want to forget where you came from.

47:27I think everyone's path is different. I actually share a story in the book about sharing about, I believe, and Gabramate would say this and other folks in this trauma. I've been watching his stuff. I love his stuff. I've got to interview him soon. Yes, you do. He looks amazing. What he would say is that, and I agree with this completely, is that trauma is the root cause of addiction. That's what he says a lot. 100%. Couldn't agree more. Because if you're not, yeah, if you're not, you don't need addiction if you're not traumatized by something, right? If you feel peace inside, why would you need to reach for some coping?

47:59Correct. And we all have trauma and so we all have reactive ways of acting. But the bigger the trauma, oftentimes the bigger the coping mechanism, a.k.a. the firefighter part. Yes. And that's an addiction, right? So addiction is a way of, a huge way of putting out the fire. So the root cause or the root of addiction is trauma or unresolved trauma, it sounds like. That's correct. So if you want to eliminate your addiction, your negative addictions, the key is to figure out where's the trauma and start healing that trauma. Yeah, that would be the goal. But I noticed when I noticed in my own with a lot of sober people in my life that they all have had similar experiences to myself and to you and big T traumas.

48:42And even being clean and sober, it's still terrible. I mean, I was sober 11 years before I was ready to face into my big trauma. Interesting. Do you feel like if you would have faced it year one or two, do you think you would have? I wouldn't have been able to, and I'll explain to you why. So I said to my therapist when I remembered that trauma, why now? Why am I remembering this now? And she said, because you're safe enough to remember. You've been in enough therapy. You have enough spiritual foundation. You're safe enough to remember. You've got to get support group. You've got to get partnership.

49:15Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That's right. But if he is saying that the root of addiction is trauma, wouldn't we want to start going to the trauma first? But if you're saying if you don't feel safe enough to face it, it may take you time. So that's the point. So I think going to the trauma is so delicate and gentle. And it's like peeling back those layers of the onion. And anyone that's listening right now, still listening, because many people might have just been like, I'm so activated. You know, this is a lot for me. and they'll come back in a half a year or whatever, a year from now and listen again.

49:47But the bottom line is that we all have these traumas and we're running from them. And to go headfirst into them would be like ripping off the Band-Aid or just being in the dark and all of a sudden walking into the brightest light you've ever seen. And it would maybe blast you out. And that can happen. It does happen. People do remember when they're not ready to. And even when you are ready, it's terrifying to remember these things. or accept things, but yeah, you have to go slow.

50:20What about when someone says, you know, I'm with this person, they make me happy. What does that happen when you're looking for someone to make you happy in the relationship? Well, the day they don't, you will say they make me unhappy, or they don't make me happy, but it's they do to me. I'm the recipient of what they do. They have the power. They can give, they can withhold. I depend, I crave, I long, I yearn, I respond to them. And what should we be thinking of instead of this person makes me happy? How should we approach that? We give each other a good foundation from which we can each launch into our respective worlds.

51:07Ooh, that's cool. A home is a foundation with wings. Or I like to think a good relationship is a foundation with wings. So you feel the stability that you need, the security, the safety, the predictability, as much as you can, as much as our life allows us. And at the same time, you have the wings to go and explore, discover, be curious, be in the world sometimes together and sometimes apart what do you think happens when people are in a relationship and let's say they're together for a year a couple years and they decide okay we want to get married but maybe one or two each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person maybe there's like three things that they really don't like or don't accept or wish they change what yeah I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, I love so much.

52:05We have this great connection. We have so much fun and we're growing and building a relationship. But behind their back, you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, I wish they'd changed this, this or this. I don't like this thing. I don't like this thing. That's ambivalence. What does that mean? Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings of what you like and what you don't like. What makes you want to be here and what makes you not want to be here? what happens when we don't accept that though and we when we and we like you know hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that i don't like about them what happens when we're in that space we're not fully accepting that when you get married you're not just making a deal with your partner you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is going to change and then when it doesn't you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself which you never said out loud it's the private bargain you do with yourself and all of us when we pick someone and make private bargains with ourselves too.

53:03And it's often that bargain that is broken, more than the one, because the partner never promised you that this would change. Exactly. And so it just creates more resentment. When we want something to change, we don't accept it. Expectations are resentment in the make. Uh-huh, yeah. The more expectations you have, the more things you can be disappointed of afterwards. Right. Especially when they're not articulated. I think what you need to know is what are some of the things, if you are with someone who, And if you go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection and you know that this is something that really is important to you, being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you and you don't want to live without it, then listen to yourself.

53:55If it's not an important part for you, because that is not the way you express yourself most, then you know that this is not the centerpiece of your relationship. You have other things that you share. If you know that you don't want children, or the reverse, that the other person doesn't want children, don't go in there hoping that they're going to change their mind. Because that is not fair to you nor to them. if you are with someone who says i do not want to marry and you do or if you are with someone who says i see love plural i do not see myself just with one partner and this is clear to you that that's not okay or that you want it differently listen to yourself those are values that involve life decisions that you don't sit there waiting till they're going to catch up with you and what What happens when two people's values are not in alignment?

54:55Can they still have a beautiful life story or do you feel like there's always going to be some type of unnecessary story? No, I think it depends on the degree to which people can live with what we call a sense of differentiation. Meaning, if I am okay wanting to go to church and that's not part of what you do, we come from the same faith or we come from different religions. and one of us wants to adhere to their tradition and wants to participate in the practices of their religion. And it's okay doing it without the other. It doesn't feel that that needs to be shared. It doesn't experience every time they sit in church, I wish you were sitting next to me.

55:37Why do I have to come here alone all the time? You know, that. So it's accepting someone's choices. It's accepting that your choice, if you practice it, you can accept to do it without your partner. So it's you accepting it. It's you accepting it. Of course, the other person. But the other person can often tell you, you go. If you like to be there, I don't want to go there on Sunday morning. I have other things to do with my time. Sure. Okay? Religion is a major one on that. Travel is another one on that. Children, work, et cetera. Family, in-laws. It's difficult to say to someone, I'll have a child alone.

56:12You don't have to participate. But it is easier to say, I will continue to practice my religion because it is central to me. You don't have to be a part of that. We have other things that we will share. But you need to know to do that and feel okay about it. If all the time... Now, that doesn't mean that on occasion you don't miss and you wish you part of it. There's a great sermon. I so wish you had been there to hear it. Great. But if it's chronic and you just feel this hole all the time, and you know from the beginning that it is a unifier for you and your partner doesn't show curiosity because you can come from something else and say, I'm interested in this.

56:52Let me see what this is. Sure. If you want to go back to live in your home country and your partner has zero intention of living where they are, listen to them. Don't hope. If they tell you, yes, I would like that at some point, then listen carefully. if they're saying this to pacify you, if they're saying this to make sure that you don't leave them, or if they truly intend to do this at some time. And don't hope something's going to change. Don't hope they're going to do something later after you get married or in a committed relationship. Start from the place that it's not going to happen. See how it is for you.

57:27Can you accept that? Can you accept that? Then, if things change, all the better. But don't start with the hope that it will be different. Right. and how does jealousy play in relationships i used to be extremely jealous and insecure i remember that and then something switched in me i don't know five years ago six years ago maybe somewhere around that time where i was like you know what this does not support me or my relationship at all this this jealous nature or this that you knew even when you were jealous oh yeah i knew but i couldn't i couldn't let it go right so it's not what you said to yourself that changed what something changed yeah i don't know exactly what it was but i remember just being like i'm tired of this i'm tired of feeling this way so what did you change not what did you say to yourself i think i changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing uh and trusting that everything was going to be okay and not needing to be jealous i think i was just afraid like are they talking to some guy or something you know is there something behind my back that they're doing i don't know it was a worry of like an anxiousness right so and then i was just like wait wait wait yes part of what accompanies jealousy you know jealousy starts at one and a half year old okay it's not an early emotion interesting it needs a sense of self first it needs the beginning of self-awareness as a baby to be able to experience jealousy it's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness.

59:03So where does it come from? And anger. Where it comes from and how evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy. But where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience how you respond to what other people are doing. I want that too. I don't want to lose something. what changed for you is that you became more confident yeah you felt less that your sense of self-worth is in the hands of the other person and that and they turned away from you that means that you are not enough exactly that you're going to lose them or that they're going to leave you that's what changed and then i'd be like hurt or empty or sad or in pain because of their actions and i think that's 100 i think i didn't feel like i was good enough or something where else it's like, you know what, it's all going to be okay.

59:56You know, if they do something or... But this, it's all going to be okay, followed in different sense of yourself. Absolutely. Where you were less in the panic, less in the grip of they're going to abandon me and I'm not good enough. And from that place, you began to say, it's okay. Absolutely. Nothing bad is going to happen to me. That's how we diminish jealousy. It's not how we react to what the other person does. It's how we feel about ourselves that changes how we react about what the other person does. Absolutely. And it's been an incredible freedom and gift that I received or gave myself.

1:00:37But it took me, you know, 30-something years to learn it. And it feels incredible. It feels incredible. But for years, I struggled with it. And I think a lot of people in general, at least guy friends that I knew growing up, struggled with it as well. where they didn't feel comfortable or maybe their female partner didn't feel comfortable with them doing certain things without them there or whatever. And now I'm just like at peace of whatever my partner wants to do. I'm like, live your life. Have you ever had a conversation about jealousy with your girlfriend? I've talked about it. Because it's highly cultural.

1:01:13Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it with her. I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not jealous. Right. But Americans think that being jealous diminishes them. They pride themselves when they say, I'm not jealous. Really? Yes. It's a kind of a thing like it's not a nice thing to feel. Other cultures see jealousy. Or Latin cultures. It's intrinsic to love. It's how you love. If you're not jealous. You don't love the person enough. Yes. That's a distortion in the other direction. But it's very cultural jealousy. Jealousy, if you track the magazines in America, is a subject that disappears for decades sometimes and then suddenly re-emerges.

1:01:52But it is often seen as a negative emotion. It isn't seen as an emotion that is so simply part and parcel of the experience of love. Is jealousy then a healthy emotion in a life story? It sometimes can be a perfectly healthy emotion and sometimes it can be very, very challenging and sometimes it can become pathological. It covers a whole range. Where is jealousy a good thing? when someone has jealousy. When is jealousy a good thing? When have you experienced jealousy and you didn't feel like it was debilitating and crippling you? I mean, debilitating. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I think there might be...

1:02:37I mean, it was always debilitating for me, I think, before I learned to process it and let it go because I realized it wasn't supporting my thoughts and my emotions. and I was saying or doing things that wasn't the highest level of love, I would say, or the most conscious way to communicate when those scenarios would happen. So I just realized it wasn't supporting me, and I didn't feel good when I had that emotion or those jealous thoughts in a relationship. But if you were part of a culture that told you that jealousy is not something you want to get rid of, but it actually signals certain things to you and it communicates certain aspects of love, you would have had a different experience.

1:03:19Maybe, yeah. You know. Now, when is it positive? Probably the easiest example for me is if I ask people all over the world, by the way, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not sexually attractive, just drawn to. When other people are interested in that more? That's one of them. That is one of the main four. When other people are flirting or giving them attention. Yes. When I see them with other people, when I see other people captivated by them, when I see the magnetism that they have over other people, when I see how others are drawn to them, when they don't belong to me. Now, if you are jealous in a feeling that is really crippling and painful, then you do not enjoy that.

1:03:59You feel uncertain. You feel insecure. You feel scared. You feel like they could leave you. You realize that maybe, you know, they're not attached to you. But if you are more grounded and if you feel more secure in your connection to your partner and to yourself, then when you see that experience you have a tingling of jealousy but it is a jealousy that actually increases your appreciation for your person. So that's an example of when do people experience jealousy in a way that actually is fueling. Healthy jealousy. Right okay. But I don't call it healthy and unhealthy because I don't think this is a puritanical definitions of health.

1:04:39It's just, this is the issue, is that is it problematic or is it additive? That makes sense. It's more than is it healthy or unhealthy. I think healthy and unhealthy doesn't help us in this moment. Is it hurting you or the relationship or is it supporting the relationship? Yes, yes. So you thought there was four ways? Yes. What's the other three then? So let me ask you, when do you find yourself most drawn? What would you say? To Martha? I find myself drawn to her. I mean, for me, I feel drawn when she loves and accepts me for who I am. When she's affectionate, when she is sharing appreciation with me and gratitude with me, when she's joyful in her most expressed self, like just pure energy and love and fun and play.

1:05:32I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for her when she is living her dreams also. Like she's doing what she wants to do fully. And I'm like, that's inspiring. You know, it draws me to her. What else? I think the fact that she is so in integrity with her word draws me to her. Because I feel more and more connected and grateful and appreciative and safe in the environment. So, I mean, sexually, so many different ways I'm drawn to. But, you know, when I say the first four, it's just simply because I've gone around the world asking this question. And I just began to see themes, right? The first one is when I see my partner in their element.

1:06:18Yeah, doing their thing, their best at. Doing their thing. Competent, radiant in their element. It could be on stage, at work, on a horse, on a slope, you know. But it is basically when they are self-sufficient and when they are radiant and they're in their element and they're passionate about something and they are alive. And all of those things also mean that I am not needing to be burdened by a certain form of emotional caretaking. She doesn't need me. They don't need me. That's it. And when they don't need you, you can want them. Yes. If they're always needing you, how does that affect the relationship?

1:06:58So let's wait a second. So they don't need you in that moment. And that not needing you clears the pathway for desire. It allows you to want. Because if you need it and you need to take care of them, then you are loving, but you're not necessarily desiring. Got it. And what happens over time when people say this, and the admiration is extremely important here because I think it's much bigger than respect. Admiration involves a certain idealization and it means that there is a sense of otherness. She's different. She's other. She's her own thing. And in this space between her and you, between me and the other, lies the erotic elan.

1:07:41And when people ask about sustaining desire in the long haul, this is the place. In their element, in their own way. Yes. Not reliant on each other to be... That's love. Love and desire, they relate and they also conflict. and herein lies the mystery of eroticism so that's number one in her element when she's joyful when she makes me laugh when she those two it's like there's a sense of aliveness of vibrancy of vitality of energy that is erotic that is erotic that's the number two okay you know and usually it means when when there is an element of surprise yeah she's very adventurous because It's unsolicited.

1:08:23But, you know, sometimes people say when my partner is vulnerable. And I say that is because it's not usual, the case. Right. So it's a surprise. It's a surprise. If they were always vulnerable, it would not be on the list of when I was drawn to my partner. It's because it's different. It's the side of them I don't get to see so often. It's the side of me that they don't get to see that often. So when they accept me fully and I can open up in a different way because it's different, it's unusual, it's out of the ordinary. That's number two. number three is when I see my partner through the eyes of the others that's the jealousy piece that you know when you see it so when you see others admiring or respecting or attracted to sexually or any of those things what does it mean it means my partner doesn't belong to me means that other people can look at them to can fantasize about them too you know I always say your partner doesn't belong to you they're just on loan with an option to renew mmm right Every day, right?

1:09:18Exactly. Interesting. And the fourth one is when we are apart or when we reunite. So that desire is also rooted in absence and in longing and not just in being there. How important is creating space in a relationship, whether you're dating or in a marriage, and creating day apart, days apart, weeks apart? and has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay growing, if it's months apart or something? So the first question is how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David White this week when we had a conversation together, and he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.

1:10:05Not always having to speak or... Yes, or the importance of being able to be with yourself. while being in the presence of the other. What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the room? Could be that. Could be that you go away for a few weeks because you want to go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in. It's the notion or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself, but that you stay in dialogue with yourself and a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner. When you mean silent with yourself, do you mean like not speaking at all for part of this time?

1:10:45Yes, but you're taking it literally. It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it. So I'll explain the context. Our conversation was called, because that's your question about how important is distance. I would say distance is very important in a relationship. But the way I define it is this. Every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness, connection and independence. Every relationship. In every relationship, there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness. One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves.

1:11:34One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment. One person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both, but we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality. And it might evolve seasonally too. Completely. So we need connection and we need distance. We need the things that are joint and together and we need the things that are separate. The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship. So when you ask how long can we be apart, it depends what you do with the space in between. If you keep the space in between alive, We are away, we have been together five, six years, and you have to go do a project and you're gone for three months.

1:12:25But during those three months, you have a whole letter writing experience where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication. Every two days or so at night, you sit down and you write a letter, not just what you've done, the catch-up of the day, but then you create an aliveness to that space in between that can be even richer than when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every morning. That's interesting. That's powerful, yeah. What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships that you had to face yourself?

1:13:08Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband, Jack, when I was 22. You're what, 35 now? Yes. I like it and actually 35 years together yes 35 years together married married wow that's amazing no we're together even more than that wow that's powerful you know but I probably swallowed the romantic ideal quite a bit as a young girl too are you going to meet the right man with this man if you meet the right person you will never feel alone again you will never feel lonely you will never be sad you will seriously You know, whatever you feel, you will feel again until some of it you may feel until you drop dead.

1:13:53But if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths. How long did it take for you internally to let that go or evolve or heal those myths? Ah, yeah. I would say the first decade. You know, it's slowly over time you begin to, you know, you begin to realize that. I think, you know, he was, I looked up to him. I still look up to him. He's a very smart guy. And I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him. Interesting. Is this smart? Is this good?

1:14:40Can I publish this? Getting approval. Getting approval, you know, from the mentor. Interesting. That was the first 10 years. Yeah. No, maybe a little bit less than 10, but certainly five years. Okay. Certainly five years. I really needed him to check everything I would write and to validate and say it's good. Because he had the PhD. I don't. And then finally, I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write. He said that. Yes. I'm not going to be your professor. I've got to work, yeah, yeah. And I was just like, oh, who's going to help me? Who's going to help me? And beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition.

1:15:24Mating in Captivity was written completely on my own. Without his approval of every chapter. I had an editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer, it was not an emotional dependency. It was a professional relationship. so that was a major transition i think also understanding the difference between equality and equity what is the difference it's not 50 50 the relationship is not no no relationship no it's 100 100 you know and and complementarity there are certain things that i will never do that i rely on him and certain things that he will never do and he relies on me and they balance each other out.

1:16:06And there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity. You know, if I want to go do something, it's just go do, enjoy, be the best, you know, this complete generosity. And that generosity towards distance or freedom or individuality, this is a very important thing. So here's a question for you and for your listeners as well. Ask yourself, you can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love. To me, that was a very important question. I understood early on that I needed freedom. No, I went very differently. I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.

1:16:56You needed freedom. I needed freedom. More than security. So I understood early on that I'm going to be self-employed, meaning I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is going to come from. But I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation. And this was back in the 80s, right? Yes, yes. This is my 20s, early 20s. I just, but then I applied it to relationship. Interesting. I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, go do your thing. and someone who says to me, go do your thing. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:17:35Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:18:14And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

1:18:23you