Why Grit Isn’t Enough to Get What You Want | Angela Duckworth

14:54Angela Duckworth:like oh I was like I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough um but it was such a generous act and the reason is that he didn't want me or wasn't suggesting that I write about like all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage. I mean, it's like the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all.

15:12Lewis Howes:What happened?

15:14Angela Duckworth:And yeah, so I'll tell you the story. And again, I think like, it's just so indicative of like how we are doing this, like in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth. I was in my twenties. I, you know, had this dating philosophy. It was like, we're not getting married next not getting um but when i met him i was like let's do it really let's go like first couple days or first couple weeks you're like hey hours i had a dream the first night um and i wrote down in my journal so i have like written evidence that this is true i'm not making this up i had the dream that we were getting married i was walking down the aisle and i couldn't see the room and And he turned around and it was this guy I just met named Jason.

15:57Angela Duckworth:And so I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was crazy.

16:02Lewis Howes:Yeah, I guess that's a natural response. I was 26, I think.

16:08Angela Duckworth:I think I just turned 26. I just turned 26. I was like 26 and two days. And so we had a head over heels romance. Like there were some ups and downs, but like, oh, my God, I was in love. So that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter or whatever. Like it ended up being chapter five, not chapter one. But he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis. He thought it would be a great way to like explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Everything was going great. You know, he's like you and he's like me. Like, like try to outwork us. Right.

16:41Angela Duckworth:It's like, you know, like, let's go. Right. Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room. Like, you know, but like watch me work. Right. Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. And that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you shared with me that that's your personal story. So when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh, my God, let's go. And it was working. Like trying harder was our life philosophy.

17:04Lewis Howes:And it worked until it didn't. Until exhausted and burned out and overwhelmed. Yeah.

17:09Angela Duckworth:Yeah. So let's see. So maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever. But I don't think that happens for those people. So we get married. And he's starting his real estate career. and you know more about business than I do, despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know that, you know, I'm, I'm a professor, I'm on tenure track. He's a real estate developer, 2008 financial crisis. I know so little about like finance and economics that like, I still like, I gave him the copy for this chapter. And he was like, I think he got the sweetie, I think he got the date wrong for the financial crisis that like, you know, know, sent the United States and the rest of the world into like a global recession.

17:49Angela Duckworth:It was like the worst housing market in, you know, recent American history. So here he is like starting out as a very ambitious, I'll outwork you real estate developer in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is and this like I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant. so he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like i will try harder and that is my superpower i will work my way out of every problem has an incredible vulnerability which is like you go from 60 hour work weeks to 80 to yeah yeah to 100 100 right and i counted so right i know people are like oh you know if you really added it up like oh yeah trust me i added him up so he's working like crazy and um and honestly like becoming incredibly unhappy like miserable would not be the right no miserably would exactly the right adjective for it i'm you know trying to be what my mother who was raised in china like raised me to be which is the perfect wife like that's impossible i know well i had a lot of therapy since this all happened and But at the time, right, like, you know, 20 something Angela, head over heels in love and raised to be like a perfect wife.

19:10Angela Duckworth:So I'm working harder. So I'm trying to get tenure. But also we had these two girls and like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit and like keep up my Pilates routine. But also I've got this husband. And when you are raised as I was raised, like, Louis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation. and she with a tear in her eye said i'm so proud of you you're ready to be a wife um and so for me my husband's unhappiness was my failure um so then i just worked harder i was like i'll dust bust you know at five in the morning i'll so i will make everything right and my husband will be happy but then so we were both just digging ourselves into into like i guess kind of a foxhole because that's what it felt like we're just like you know we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work and all the happiness.

19:57Angela Duckworth:I mean, the joy, like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met, but I couldn't even remember that at this point. And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try harder people. And we had to reckon with the reality that trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner. It didn't work for us. And we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. I mean, to rescue ourselves. And so, yeah, I belatedly, in a way, came to understand that working harder in a losing situation is just a recipe for exhaustion, burnout, and misery.

20:47Lewis Howes:Wow. Now, there's a couple of things I relate to there. One, And I told you before that I was in multiple long-term relationships, not married, but just in long-term dating relationships, committed relationships. And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, we're not supposed to continue. But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up. You don't want to quit. I was like, I'm going to figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy, whatever it was. And I repeated that in like four or five different relationships.

21:16Angela Duckworth:Yeah. Yeah.

21:17Lewis Howes:And not most people, but I would say some people after five, 10 years of a marriage, until they get to that point, they would say, you know what? We've lost the love. We've lost this. Like we've burned ourselves to the ground.

21:29Angela Duckworth:We've tried everything.

21:30Lewis Howes:Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up. Even if we have kids, I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to make their decisions, but why did you feel like that? Ending the relationship and removing yourself from the situation was not the right thing to do at that time for you.

21:46Angela Duckworth:So there's some subtlety here, right? Because it's like, OK, so I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela. Like, why isn't breaking up like the right thing? And like you, I'm like, why would it be for me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life? Because I don't know anything about it, but I can speak personally. And there is some nuance here because divorce was a way to change the situation. Right. And I thought like I would be a happy, you know, single mom and then, you know, happier. Right. So you thought about this.

22:16Lewis Howes:You thought about, like, what would that look like if we were -

22:18Angela Duckworth:I took him out for a walk, and I was like, and out of the blue, I was, you know, like, all in one moment. I was like, okay, I know you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night, and I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. Wow. So it was not - How did he say that? It was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I don't know that I did it justice. Like, I don't think there's anything more devastating. He's, like, a child of divorce.

22:43Lewis Howes:Oh, man, the heartbreak.

22:45Angela Duckworth:I don't think there is anything I could have said that was more wounding than that. I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you can think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. It was devastating. And I won't lie. Part of the reason why we're still married is grit because he was a little bit like, oh, no, I'm not done. Like, you know, like, you know, we'll do it. So there was a little bit of grit, but I will tell you, I'll tell you, you know, what happened and why it is that like getting situated, I guess, you know, there were other ways to do it, but I'm glad that we went the path we did.

23:23Angela Duckworth:So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to like a radical like changing, you know, like just splitting up. So I was also raised not to have therapy. Like I was raised. I remember my father and my mother were, you know, I have siblings. And there was a moment in time in my childhood.

23:42Lewis Howes:No one talked about emotions or feelings or like like verboten.

23:46Angela Duckworth:And there was a moment in time where like I think the school somebody reached out and was like your family needs to go to therapy. And by that, I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode, you know, it's like a sepia colored photograph. It's a little fuzzy. But I remember being on this couch with my family. When you were a kid. Yeah. And my parents were there. And my dad like stormed out and said like, you know, very like unrepeatable things about like the therapist. So like I did not I did not grow up thinking like therapy is great. Like therapy should be part of your situation. So at this marriage crisis, Jason, you know, said, whatever, pleaded, said, like therapy.

24:30Angela Duckworth:Like you need therapy, I need therapy, and we need therapy.

24:33Lewis Howes:And how did you respond?

24:34Angela Duckworth:I was like incredibly resistant to the idea. You know, like also like when you feel like you've already gone to the place where you're like, oh, by the way, I've thrown it all out and like there's no solution here. There's no coming back. There's no coming back. But maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that was like, oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy. So like we went and that was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to like help people like you and who has seen as like pattern recognition.

25:08Angela Duckworth:So I found this therapist. Her name is Dee. She's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist. We went through another.

25:15Lewis Howes:So you did it individually and then together?

25:17Angela Duckworth:We did like we had the biggest therapy bills like in well, maybe not in history, but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage. And that wasn't a great ratio for me. And we were, you know, just it was a huge amount of our income, time, energy, you know, these like two little girls who are raising like, you know, grandparents, like taking shifts so that we can each go to therapy, that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change. But like you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is like a whole different world from like you together, like vulnerable enough to be like, I guess it's time for therapy.

25:54Angela Duckworth:Like, I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you, except for if there's this third person in the room. like it did it wasn't and it wasn't the only thing we did but it was like part of the turning point right um you know asking for help i think is a big part of getting situated it is

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28:27Lewis Howes:Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season?

28:35Angela Duckworth:I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because you know what I've also found in my research, Lewis, people aren't gritty when they're not happy. So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy.

28:48Lewis Howes:But maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation, maybe you would have felt a sense of freedom and peace. Well, there's the road not taken. You know, it's like, oh, maybe I don't have anything. I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like changing myself. Like maybe it just been I can be who I want and find someone else.

29:02Angela Duckworth:So I nearly memorized the road not taken by Robert Frost. You know, like, you know, two roads diverged in yellow wood. And there I, the weary traveler, stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth. Right. I haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end. It's like, you know, basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time is like, who hasn't thought about like, but what if I hadn't stayed with you? Or like, what if I had got like, or what if I had stayed in Ireland or whatever it is? You know, you just have these like, what if I'd stayed in football?

29:31Angela Duckworth:Like you have these other roads and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I mean, I'm trying not to swear, but I love this road. And I so, so love my husband. Like, I don't know, but I will say this. The thoughts that I had in my head, like, this is ruined, like, it's no longer a fairy tale, like, I can't make you happy, therefore I'm a failure as a wife, like, we are not meant to be. Those thoughts are not true. And it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to, well, you are miserable and I am miserable. Facts. It doesn't have to be that way.

30:11Angela Duckworth:It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person or that I am congenitally unable to be a good wife. Like there are so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts. Right. And I think one of the one of the things I would really do, like we've had a conversation before this where I said I'm slightly uncomfortable, like, you know, being on book tour, like, you know, I don't. But there is something I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology. And that is my job, right? I'm not a real estate developer. I'm a psychologist.

30:45Angela Duckworth:Like in psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career and I think is important to deliver to the world. And it gets back to like, well, how does this all fit together? There's just three boxes if you want to draw them on a piece of paper. And the third box is like how you respond, how you feel. Are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident? Are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three.

31:17Lewis Howes:And that's how you respond to what happens? That's how you're responding, right? Your response.

31:21Angela Duckworth:And people can be different, right? You're like, oh, you know, Ryan, you know, John, like Sally, like they stayed later. And, you know, Sue didn't like, OK, that's the response. Right. Then what happens in box two? What box two are your thoughts. So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like cognitive therapists, your thoughts, like what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident? Like you're feeling like an imposter. Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. And like, let's try to understand, you know, you don't think this marriage is going to work.

31:55Angela Duckworth:You feel whatever you feel like it's the thought. So cognitive therapy, like you go and a therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts. Right. So I think that's a lot of as a lot of growth. You talk about greatness. Like, I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I want to say, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too, but I want to say that there's another box. It's like, okay, that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation. Like, who are you with? Like, are you with a therapist or are you not with a therapist?

32:30Angela Duckworth:I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. there were also professional changes we make we changed box one we changed our situation when you change your situation you automatically change your thoughts when you change your thoughts you automatically change your behavior so i feel unapologetic and unequivocal that like people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think

32:59Lewis Howes:is influenced by your situation i believe that for sure and this you know this guy this younger guy who came yesterday to meet with me. The one who asked you for advice? I love this question, by the way.

33:10Angela Duckworth:I already love this guy. I've never met him.

33:12Lewis Howes:Nice guy. I was telling him like, listen, everything I went through, all the challenges, they've all taught me who I am today and this and that. And I'm grateful for all the experiences. But I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships. And I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. And I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better sooner. Because now being married and with Martha for the last five years, it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways.

33:53Lewis Howes:I feel like better, right? It's given me more and more energy, given me more confidence, all these things and less stress. And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life and I, and I make, you know, and I don't respond, like you said, in the third box as well. Right. You're not your best self.

34:09Angela Duckworth:Not your best self.

34:10Lewis Howes:I'm like a six out of a 10 every day or like a four out of a 10.

34:14Angela Duckworth:So are you like a different Lewis because like it's Lewis and Martha?

34:16Lewis Howes:A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking, to just act, oh, we're in love. And this is amazing. And it feels good. And let's just not ask the deep questions. And this, it feels good being around each other. So early on when we were dating in the first couple of months, I was like, listen, we're having an amazing time. And it seems like it feels, so many things are lining up. We're like, this is amazing. Right. But I said, for whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy.

34:57Angela Duckworth:Really?

34:58Lewis Howes:Yes.

34:58Angela Duckworth:At the beginning of your relationship?

35:00Lewis Howes:Beginning of the relationship because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never worked out.

35:05Angela Duckworth:You're like, wait, we have the tail.

35:07Lewis Howes:And I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great. And then we move in in a year or a year and a half or whatever it is. And then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with Jason, right? Yeah.

35:21Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

35:21Lewis Howes:In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy of the beginning and you can't find it because you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you're hating each other, whatever it is. And I was like, I don't want to get to that point. I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning and we're really honest with each other. And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out. Yeah. Which is great.

35:42Angela Duckworth:I'd rather do that in three to six months than three to six years. God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome.

35:48Lewis Howes:It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said absolutely let's do it which i thought also a good sign great such a good sign and we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly and it wasn't always comfortable and there were some moments that were vulnerable and it was like oh this doesn't feel good but we were able to work through it with a mentor a third party yeah that's all they do.

36:16Angela Duckworth:Yeah. Instead of us figuring out when we're emotional, it was the greatest gift we gave

36:20Lewis Howes:ourselves and our relationship to this. Um, probably about a year. Wow. And the first year, and it was just like, we appreciated each other genius as I know we're in this together and we've done this work early and we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to. And it's been the most beautiful five year experience with someone ever.

36:43Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

36:44Lewis Howes:And again, we've faced challenges. We have adversity we're going through and different stuff. Like we just had twin girls 10 months ago, challenges at hospital, all these different things are happening. But the fact that we created a, almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability, of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship. Now, again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created a much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore.

37:14Angela Duckworth:So I have never met anybody who was like, oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like, we're going to therapy.

37:19Lewis Howes:But I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart-wrenching for me. That didn't work out. That I was like, my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation. Right. Talk about in your book. Right. And the people that we surround ourselves with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers.

37:43Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

37:44Lewis Howes:And those are the environments, in my mind, that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Yes, those are also elements.

37:56Angela Duckworth:Yes, those environments are crucial.

37:59Lewis Howes:but if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach a mentor a friend who's holding you hostage who's gaslighting you that you're pouring into and you feel like it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you so i feel like the people situations that you're in those are the most important are the most emotionally important and everything else as well like stack everything you can like you talk about in your book but it's the people that hold you back and so many people i've interviewed they're like make sure you choose the person you

38:31Angela Duckworth:marry wisely really has that come up as a theme because it impacts everything just venture

38:35Lewis Howes:capitalists and i asked my i asked my therapist this who works with a lot of like very financially successful kind of older men right who are maybe in their like 50s 60s and 70s right yeah and she has a lot of like high profile clients and things like that and i'm asking her you know after like a year and a half for a couple years of doing this and i was doing individual therapy and then hers with couples therapy as well. When I did it at this session at one point, she was like, so what do you want to talk about? I was like, man, I just feel so good. And it was just happening every time. I was like, I don't really know how anything to talk about.

39:06Lewis Howes:But I go, how about this? Let's go into the future, future Lewis. Say everything works out for me, everything I want. And I accomplish everything and all my dreams come true and I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's going to be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients.

39:26Angela Duckworth:You asked her this question.

39:27Lewis Howes:You asked your therapist this question. I said, what are your clients coming to you and what's their biggest challenge? And you say, all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace. They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation, their marriage. They've cheated with someone. They've strayed from the family. They've allowed their power, their money, their success - Their ego, whatever. To get to them, whatever. And they made mistakes that ruined their life. So they ruined their situation that's a good thing for something else maybe more tempting.

40:03Lewis Howes:And then they spent years trying to regain respect from their kids or their... Repair. They eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be, and it's too late. And so she was like, just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow. You're going to continue to succeed.

40:17Angela Duckworth:Right. And you're going to be more successful. And the temptations are going to be greater.

40:21Lewis Howes:Exactly. So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together. Right. And I think that is the thing where most people fail is like they get too successful and then they forget. I guess they forget about who they are, you know. So.

40:39Angela Duckworth:So, look, you know, you can be like, what's more important? Like the people, places, or things. I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? Like first as people. Like first and foremost. Like it's right because they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're like helping you remember who you are or they're distracting you from like your. So I think I'll agree with you on that. Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering, but like if there's one.

41:02Lewis Howes:And imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you.

41:08Angela Duckworth:We worked in the same company. This is how we met. So we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey Consulting. And he's very proactive, like, like, you know, Boy Scout class president type. And so he's like, I'm going to organize a dinner for all the people who are going to go work at McKinsey Consulting in New York City. I'm a little less like, yeah, it's great. And, you know, that's why you need people to, like, organize your high school reunion. Like, he's your guy. So he organizes this dinner. And I meet him. Yeah. Fall in love. But the point is that we both went to McKinsey.

41:39Angela Duckworth:And so we were, you know, like in the same track. And I wasn't more successful than him. But I will say.

41:46Lewis Howes:Just smarter than him.

41:47Angela Duckworth:Better working. more charming um uh i wore shorter skirts i will say that i got that feedback in a performance

41:54Lewis Howes:review they're like yeah you know he liked that but apparently not my engagement manager but um

41:59Angela Duckworth:uh so so here's the thing being a successful person i think is hard um being a successful woman in a marriage i think can be hard for the husband um he frequently reminds me that he is the son of a like his parents divorced and so he was raised by both his father and his mother but like not at the same time. And his mother, Sharon, is an incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. She became a school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that, like, I should be more articulate about this, Louis, but maybe is it because it's emotional or is it because it's hard to describe? The support that this man gives me, like, it's not that he tolerates my success.

42:37Angela Duckworth:It's not that he is capable of, like, managing his own ego. And by the way, he is successful, too but i think he would point to my success like it is true love right when it's like i assume that like the greater that lewis is like the more fulfilled martha herself is like it it is that way on my you know on my side of this marriage like i feel like you know like like he might enjoy my success more than i do um i i think that that's good words into you on a consistent basis

43:13Lewis Howes:around your project that you're working on?

43:15Angela Duckworth:I think he is, A, a lot more, like, he has ballast, you know? I mean, I get, like, very excited about things, like, and he has a steadiness. There's, like, a, you know, there's, like, a salinity to Jason Duckworth. I think he also is, like, ethically and morally, like, I don't know a lot of people. I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of a relationship, but I also can say I don't know a lot of people, like, like, Jason is actively trying to be a better person. Like he actively prays to be a better person. Like he asked the question, like, is this the most ethical way?

43:51Angela Duckworth:You know, like we're now in our fifties, like, is this the ethical way to be like using our money, using our time? So I have this person in my life who has like unconditional, um, uh, it's not like in any marriage, like, you know, you're also happy with the other person, but like this unconditional commitment, um, and, uh, unconditional support. But then also he's this like, you know, paragon of like integrity. Like I am not an immoral person, but I don't think on like, you know, like I don't wake up in the morning and pray like, oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean, I try to be nice, but I think he's another level.

44:28Angela Duckworth:And yeah, think about the, okay, so like, let's assume that Robert Frost is right. And our life is a road. And we, and you know, sometimes we come to like a fork in the road, and we could be with this person or that person, we could go to therapy or not go to therapy, we could stay in our job or not stay in our job, we can move or not move. We'll never know the roads not taken. There's not only one road not taken, there are uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, I could not have come this far.

45:06Angela Duckworth:Like I wouldn't I wouldn't even, you know, I shared with you this. You know, my mom, by the way, I think would be OK with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91. And I think she looks back and she was like, what was I talking about when you were at college graduation? like probably not the thing to say like you know i'm glad you're happy you know you could be a wife but i know this road that i've been on and i know that there's no way i would get this far and one reason i know is that being raised in that you know be a good wife be a good wife you know like make him happy like literally i was told at the beginning of my marriage like my mom again not the 91 year old i have now but back then she was like when he comes home play some soft music and like as if you were a lion or something.

45:51Angela Duckworth:It's like, play some soft music and like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food ready. So I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today, who's like, I'm going to, I'm going to just go, like, I'm going to be as great a psychologist I can be. I want to like, I want to do everything I can. I don't think I would have given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like, I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road and this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to go. Right.

46:22Angela Duckworth:Because yeah, like, and we're so happily married and you know, this ring, so this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right. And then we got married, we got this ring and I have a third ring. And after our marriage crisis, uh, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like, you know, here we are so much therapy, right. Well, I was part of a better situation. So like you re-imagined a new

46:44Lewis Howes:situation.

46:46Angela Duckworth:Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like it leads to an even better situation because like now you're, you know, now you're making better decisions across the board. This third ring is like, you know, the ring to celebrate our second marriage, like the sort of, you know, like we are not just going to try harder individually or even together to like, we will when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know, like you asked me in the very beginning, like, do we know like on schedule? And I said, I think we often know too late, But here's a way to know if you are trying and then you're trying harder and then you're trying harder still and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything.

47:28Angela Duckworth:You're like more effort is not producing more results. I think that is a time you should stop. Ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing and try harder. But that, I think, is the signal. And I think I missed that signal. I was just like, oh, just keep going. I mean, that's the problem with the superpower, right? It's a kryptonite you don't realize.

47:57Lewis Howes:My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need.

48:22Angela Duckworth:Now, let's get back to the conversation.

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49:52Lewis Howes:Shop now at Tempur-Pedic.com. If you want a cool, comfortable night's sleep, you must check out Tempur-Pedic, the most highly recommended mattress brand in America. let's hypothetically go back and say you know you you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't maybe it got a little bit better but it wasn't really transforming after therapy and you guys just cut we're just gonna stick this out for the kids or whatever like yeah we're just gonna stay

50:19Angela Duckworth:asking me to like think through this kind of factual right yeah go back in time but also

50:23Lewis Howes:imagine that like yeah and let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together and let's say he wasn't encouraging? Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts, would that have hurt your experience in life and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would have been able to overcome that with that type of

51:00Angela Duckworth:situation like you like literally just described my mother's marriage to my father right so i know what that looks like because that was her so you know my parents also fell head over heels in love they were actually fabulously good looking like i i watched these like old movies of them and i was like holy my mother was like a female uh you know like like like she was a goddess i mean she looked like a chinese sophia loren um and my dad actually to my shock and all was like actually pretty good looking too. And, you know, he had a big white convertible. I mean, they had this like very head over heels romance, much like Jason and I.

51:39Angela Duckworth:But you just described really, I think, what their marriage was like. So my mother immigrated to this country, like knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She wanted to be an artist and she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right? The land of opportunity.

51:58Lewis Howes:She changed her situation, moved countries.

51:59Angela Duckworth:She changed her situation, which I think is good.

52:01Lewis Howes:Step one.

52:01Angela Duckworth:Step one. Yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency. But her situation wasn't perfect. So she moved from, you know, Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because, like, as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States. Like, she went to great art schools here.

52:18Lewis Howes:But there was challenges because she didn't know the language and other challenges.

52:20Angela Duckworth:And she overcame them because she's also gritty. Okay. So, okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by YK, because he's like a very unpronounceable total Chinese name. Let's call him YK because that's what everyone did. In marrying YK, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage, like a very traditional Chinese marriage, because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the 1930s. So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to marry a good wife. And he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome.

52:55Angela Duckworth:Well, awesome, maybe, but mostly because she was beautiful and kind, but not because she was like a great artist and like ambitious and smart. because like my mom was every bit as you know is as every bit as smart as my dad was my dad's not passed so when you describe this marriage like angela go back in time imagine imagine greatness and the ceiling that you know how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home if you had somebody who was giving you like you know doubts and so forth and was like actually resentful i was like i don't have to imagine it louis because that is the marriage my mother had so what happened to this?

53:31Angela Duckworth:Like, and my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like, she was a prodigy. Like, I saw the paintings. She still has them that she made when she was a teenager. And I really think she had a gift. So she had a gift and she had grit and she was in America. Like, what's, you know, what's wrong? What's wrong is like, well, the trifecta, but I guess there are four things because like she didn't have the marriage. So my dad was not mean

53:58Lewis Howes:and not a bad person kind of dismissive or kind of just like not supportive right like that like um don't do that stuff you should be doing well like you know what like let's start a wholesale

54:10Angela Duckworth:needlepoint company um because it will make money and do you know what needlepoint is needlepoint meaning what is that okay it's a handicraft i thought it was like sewing like it's a version of sewing okay you get this canvas yeah it's like artwork needlepoint yeah like the canvas is usually like painted with like i don't know like a unicorn or like your dog or something right or it can have like a saying like you know like home is where the heart is and like it's painted so you get this white canvas and it's painted and needlepoint is this like string in there like uh yeah so this is like you know by the way this is partly why their like business idea didn't take off but anyway like nobody does needlepoint so like you you like if it's green you stitch green and if it's yellow you stitch yellow so my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad it's like not evil but when you're married to somebody your job is not to make them happy but your job is to help them realize their dreams and my dad did not do that so he wanted my mom to run this business she wanted like they became small business owners i mean he had a career he was a chemist but he gave her this assignment which is like side hustle yeah full-time side hustle so she ran this business this is like needlepoint business where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like, you know, you know, like whatever, you know, home is where the heart is like, whatever it is, like unicorns.

55:31Angela Duckworth:And then, you know, getting other people to paint them and then selling them to stores and not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself, like a real painter. And that was their whole marriage until he died. And then he did die. And that is when my mom started painting again.

55:47Lewis Howes:Come on.

55:48Angela Duckworth:No. Yeah. Like,

55:48Lewis Howes:So how many years were they together until he died?

55:50Angela Duckworth:Over 50. Gosh, I must not have a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many years is my... Definitely over 50.

55:56Lewis Howes:So for 50 years... 50 plus. 50 plus years. I've been married 25 plus. She did all of her work to get to this country to start pursuing it, but then, not in a negative way or a bad way, she was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess.

56:13Angela Duckworth:and that situation if you want to contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner yes uh he was many things but supportive about art he was not curious like i grew up in that house we never went to the art museum like there is a beautiful art museum in philadelphia it looks like it should be in greece it's like you know uh one of the greatest art museums in the world we never went to the art museum like uh you know my mom you know like had one painting that I used to like, it had like cherry blossoms and there was another painting that had boats. Those are only two paintings in my house.

56:50Angela Duckworth:Now that we've talked about this and, you know, life is long and you learn a lot. And now my 91 year old mother looks back and says, like, I should have said something. I should have done something. I asked her why there weren't more paintings like when we were growing up. And she was like, well, you know, I was taking care of your father. He was like my fourth child. And she said, you know, sometimes I I would paint something like because I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner. And and I would put it up on the wall and nobody would say anything. And especially your father, like he would walk by a new painting for months and never acknowledge anything because he didn't notice.

57:27Angela Duckworth:Like you didn't notice. So, like, I don't know, Martha, but I already like like that's changed your life. You know, I think that's Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously there are a lot of people who are like, sounds great. How do I get one? But even knowing that like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you. Like I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a poem about like the road not taken. Like, okay, I'm on this road. It's not only like, I mean, like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road. Like, right. And it's changed me.

58:00Lewis Howes:Yeah, but you've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time.

58:06Angela Duckworth:Yeah, not a perfect person, but like...

58:09Lewis Howes:Yeah, but he's been encouraging. He hasn't put doubt in your mind. Maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he reinforces positive encouragement in your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you, right?

58:25Angela Duckworth:And research shows, right? And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth. But Angela, the professor and psychologist who can tell you what. So one of the really surprising things about confidence, and I think, you know, what thousands of podcast episodes, right? Like the theme of confidence of belief, like I believed I could do it, right? Believing you can do something always precedes doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do. human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence your partner is telling you you can't do this exactly okay so so exhausting so i don't know in the marriage context i'm sure this is true but uh but in other contexts it's like been shown in research so much of your belief

59:09Lewis Howes:comes from other people's belief it's saying i believe in borrowed just saying hey i believe

59:13Angela Duckworth:you can do it yeah and then like acting that way and so forth so like how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you. It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion effect. It's actually appropriately, since we ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So it's not a true story and it's not a research study. But the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion, and he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it.

59:53Angela Duckworth:And he so believes that this statue is real, that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, like sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and basically brings the statue to life. And the reason why this research study called the Pygmalion Effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like it will transform them. It will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California, and they're just going through elementary school. And before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist named Bob Rosenthal, who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, that self-confidence comes from other people that you need to be in these relationships because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it.

1:00:44Angela Duckworth:So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not. Right. And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. I gave them the like Harvard test of inflected reasoning. I mean, he made this up. He made up the test. He made up the title. But it sounded very fancy. And he was a Harvard professor. And he said, and these are your bloomers. And it might not be obvious on day one of school. And it may not be obvious on day 10. But like before the end of the school year, you will see that they bloom because they are gifted.

1:01:18Angela Duckworth:So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right, experimentally. We'll just wait to see what happened. And sure enough, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great. And even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better by a lot by the end of the year. And so the Pygmalion effect is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth, is not just because of Angela Duckworth. It's because of Jason Duckworth and, you know, like another set of people.

1:01:59Angela Duckworth:But it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only like what your opportunities are, but like how you think about yourself as a person.

1:02:09Lewis Howes:Yes. And that's why I think your book is so powerful situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. And you said people first in the title.

1:02:19Angela Duckworth:I guess I could have said places and it was, yeah, it takes primacy, right? It's pole position.

1:02:23Lewis Howes:And you talk about mentorship and relationships. The relationships we choose to create. Now, obviously, when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings. But at some point, hopefully, your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment or whatever it might be to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive reencouragement, positive self-belief, it is going to give you such a greater advantage than being in, you know, the perfect school and perfect place without those people giving that to you.

1:03:04Angela Duckworth:Like you like the people part. I, I, I, I couldn't agree more. And Liz, it's, it's really like, not like, oh, you'll be 5 % more productive. Like, um, you'll be 7 % more efficient. Like if, like it is, I think to me, the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become. Like, that's the thing. Right. Like, and your mom, like who could she have become?

1:03:27Lewis Howes:Not that she was, not that she's not great right now. And she raised great kids and she had a great marriage, but who could my mother have become?

1:03:34Angela Duckworth:could she become who could might like what and it doesn't mean that she was could have been a famous

1:03:38Lewis Howes:maybe she could have been famous but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more creating

1:03:42Angela Duckworth:the art she had inside of her yeah like like like she will tell you herself that uh she asked that question right and again you know is she sorry that she raised her family like do she did she feel like she had infinite freedom like no but yeah no and and um you'll be happy to know at age 91. I mean, she paints every day.

1:04:01Lewis Howes:And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like?

1:04:05Angela Duckworth:She texted me once and she said in this text message, like, when I paint, I have no age. Like, I forget that I am old. Wow. Right. And she says, like, every day I'm good to work to, like, make these dreams come true. Yeah. Like, God bless. She's very healthy 91 year old. But I think it's just I mean, it really is. It's like, OK, now she's in a situation where like there are people. I asked her about her art. Like growing up, I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked mom, like, do you want to go to the art museum? Like, what are you working on? Like, do you like this painting?

1:04:37Angela Duckworth:Like now I ask her about her art. I ask her to send pictures there. I go to her art studio. Like I, like I'm only a tiny part of that situation, but, but yeah. And I think the, the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is like, again, it's not about 5 % or 7 % gains. It's a transformation in who you are. You are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation.

1:05:03Lewis Howes:So true. I've got a couple of final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions I had here.

1:05:08Angela Duckworth:I can't believe we talked about my marriage the whole time. I think it's fascinating. It's okay. It's an important part of my life.

1:05:13Lewis Howes:I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you. We talked about off camera about early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that belief, that energy, that confidence.

1:05:43Angela Duckworth:And that's a self-assuming prophecy, right? It is.

1:05:45Lewis Howes:And it makes you more gritty and all these things like supporting each other.

1:05:49Angela Duckworth:The alien effect and the placebo effect are highly related. They're both about belief. And they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality, right?

1:05:58Lewis Howes:There's a book out by Nir Eyal. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief.

1:06:03Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

1:06:03Lewis Howes:It's really interesting.

1:06:04Angela Duckworth:His book is Nir Eyal. He's a psychologist or something, right?

1:06:06Lewis Howes:Yes. Like, is really? Am I guessing? Yes.

1:06:07Angela Duckworth:Okay, yeah.

1:06:08Lewis Howes:It's called Beyond Belief.

1:06:09Angela Duckworth:I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book.

1:06:11Lewis Howes:The book is powerful.

1:06:12Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

1:06:12Lewis Howes:I think the previous book was called Hooked. I think it was. Yes.

1:06:14Angela Duckworth:That is the one about distractions. The new one is about belief.

1:06:17Lewis Howes:You should check it out. It's called Beyond Belief. And I believe he was also atheist, I believe, before from what he was talking about. And he said, in all my research of studying beliefs and the benefits of beliefs, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily... I didn't grow up thinking about this, and I never prayed before. But prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more. So I'm going to believe it. So I believe it, even if I don't know really 100 % there's a God. I choose to believe. I choose to believe based on the psychological, emotional, and health benefits in my life.

1:06:53Lewis Howes:Yeah.

1:06:53Angela Duckworth:Prayer. Yeah.

1:06:54Lewis Howes:And so I pray every day because I believe it's going to make me better.

1:06:59Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

1:07:00Lewis Howes:And then when you're talking about your husband, Jason, how he prays every day to be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices?

1:07:08Angela Duckworth:You know what? There are lots of books about believing. And I am not saying that you shouldn't read that one. But I will say mindset, you know, like, you know, like when you're like there, there are lots of things about what you do in your mind. You pray, you meditate, you set goals. I think I believe in all of it, by the way. Like, I think there should be a thousand books, a million books. Right. Because that is a lot of of changing like your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this. Many people, let's take prayer as an example. Like, why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right?

1:07:44Angela Duckworth:Like, why are there sacred spaces, right? Like, well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants. And art museums. And art museums and art studios, right? Like, and I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation. But just on the side of the, like, the physical spaces matter, too. I think prayer is easier in certain places. Like you could pray at Starbucks, you know, and maybe some people are really good at praying at Starbucks. But when I go to church, which I do, you know, like that's a different space. Right.

1:08:17Lewis Howes:You're more present to it. You're more in the moment. You know, at least for me, right?

1:08:21Angela Duckworth:So, again, like, it's a late understanding of mine in a way. Because I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work out. It's like, no, no, you just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best first and foremost. I think we agree. And the environment. Lewis and Angelo agree.

1:08:40Lewis Howes:And the environment.

1:08:40Angela Duckworth:And the physical environment. Well, you put people first.

1:08:43Lewis Howes:So, you know, that's... Yeah, I know. And I'm with you.

1:08:45Angela Duckworth:Like I'm speaking from the same hymnal, but, um, but I think the, I think the physical matter, I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, Oh, I love it. Right. Like, and I, I think it was

1:08:55Lewis Howes:great, great vibe, right.

1:08:57Angela Duckworth:Like details matter. So like, do all the details matter the same? No, but I think like, once you just open your eyes, like just look around, right? Like look around, who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say, like, what am I doing here? I will tell you, the billboards are different in LA than they are in Philadelphia.

1:09:22Lewis Howes:They're probably not as, they don't make you feel as good, probably.

1:09:25Angela Duckworth:Well, have you been to Philadelphia?

1:09:27Lewis Howes:Oh, I haven't been there a long time. I know the weather is better here.

1:09:31Angela Duckworth:I think our billboards are 90 % about like...

1:09:33Lewis Howes:We can see the billboards. You can't see the rain there, the clouds. Okay, that's true.

1:09:37Angela Duckworth:Well, that's the other problem. But in Philadelphia, our billboards are mostly like um you know like how to you know sue people like you know like political or government

1:09:46Lewis Howes:yeah what's that called like legal like the legal thing where like you know there's a lot of those here too though on the highway they're everywhere yeah okay well maybe that make me feel better i

1:09:54Angela Duckworth:just like passed a lot of entertainment one so i just thought like very different thing but um but yeah you should just be i think be aware of it before you change your situation right because absolutely you should but i think just being aware that's probably step one just like notice step one.

1:10:08Lewis Howes:Yeah. That's it. Angela, this has been powerful. I got a couple of final questions. This question is something I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. Okay. Hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. But for whatever reason in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone. Grit is gone. All of your speeches, content, video, all gone. From this world. Everything is gone. This podcast is gone.

1:10:35Angela Duckworth:Everything before this moment.

1:10:36Lewis Howes:Yes. But you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world. And we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you?

1:10:48Angela Duckworth:Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations than others. Number three, you can change your situation for the better.

1:11:06Lewis Howes:Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated, where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, now you can be a wife. Now you're ready to be a wife. Now you're ready to be a wife. Yeah. If you could go back and just hypothetically time travel, you are who you are now, and you see that girl then on graduation day. And if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds, and you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, What would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through? And what advice would you give her?

1:11:41Angela Duckworth:I would say, Angie, you think of life as a watercolor. And you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it. But that's not the right metaphor. Because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes. and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined. It's an oil painting. In an oil painting, you can just like throw on a whole nother layer. The things, you know, it's a work in progress. When I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension. and when things did go south in any endeavor, I did try harder.

1:12:36Angela Duckworth:But in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, I chose the road with Jason, it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like this marriage must be ruined, to like it's an oil painting and if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then we're going to be more than okay. And if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on.

1:13:10Lewis Howes:Yeah, that's beautiful.

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1:14:07Lewis Howes:Finding that person matters. Indeed, sponsored jobs get you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, Situated, Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best.

1:14:50Lewis Howes:People first. People first. For me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately live a better life. live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing. And that's what we try to do here on the School of Greatness is give people those tools. So I'm going to acknowledge you for this. I want to acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage.

1:15:21Lewis Howes:I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today.

1:15:23Angela Duckworth:I did not think so. But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question? I know that you often ask your interviewees, your guests, like what their definition of greatness is.

1:15:36Lewis Howes:Well, that's my next question for you. But can you answer it for me? For me, it's discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought greatness is about being the best, being number one and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was like a teenager, 20s, you know, something. And I realized that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results, but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted rather about we and service.

1:16:18Lewis Howes:And so then as I started to start the School of Greatness, I went through a healing journey and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me, even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted. Right, you were winning. But why am I unhappy? Why am I in a breakdown of relationship? What's going on?

1:16:38Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

1:16:38Lewis Howes:And I realized I was just like, oh, that's not the secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. it should be about win-win not win-lose right and in sports you know you're just conditioned like win give your best like get better and improve and if you're not a winner and if you're not a winner you're a loser right so that framework of sports is a win-lose unless you look at sports differently and say even if i lose how can i win even if i lose where's the lesson where was the growth where was the good what about that moment we had as teammates like what did i learn from my coach?

1:17:15Lewis Howes:What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty. And I responded with my integrity, you know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss. And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought like, if we don't win, then I'm a loser. I am a loser. Right. And I cannot deal with feeling like Like a loser. I am not, I experienced a loss.

1:17:39Angela Duckworth:Yeah.

1:17:40Lewis Howes:It was an identity of I am instead of we experienced this loss in this game, but I'm not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, oh, this is unsustainable way of living life. Yeah. And I believe like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God, someone gave her that she was curious about. She wanted to paint and she pursued that for a while. And then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing it again. And she says she feels ageless. And it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia Museum and makes millions of dollars.

1:18:25Lewis Howes:but she feels the most alive she's ever felt. It sounds like pursuing her gift and talent. And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding a way to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. So that's for me what it is. But what's your definition of greatness?

1:18:58Angela Duckworth:I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself. And that is also the definition I would give for meaning. And the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Viktor Frankl.

1:19:16Lewis Howes:Yeah. Man search for meaning. Man search for meaning. So great. Stimulus in response.

1:19:20Angela Duckworth:And I think Viktor Frankl is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Viktor Frankl. People are like, oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz. That's true. Stimulus and response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space, we find our freedom. him. He often quoted Nietzsche, and he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation. And I think that's the lesson that people take from Man's Search for Meaning and then his own triumph in adversity, because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation.

1:19:57Angela Duckworth:But if you read Man's Search for Meaning carefully, he says two things that I think are not always understood about Viktor Frankl. One is he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should, because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic.

1:20:15Lewis Howes:Don't stay in a horrible situation.

1:20:17Angela Duckworth:I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp. You have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change like where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. You can't change whether, you know, you hang out with this person or that person. You have zero freedom. I think Viktor Frankl, when he escaped, when he was released from the concentration camps and he came especially to lecture in America, he said, you know, emphatically that you do have freedoms and so you should consider them responsibly. So that's one mistake we make that like Viktor Frankl did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation.

1:20:49Angela Duckworth:Viktor Frankl wanted us to be in better situations and make them better for others. And the second thing I was saying -

1:20:56Lewis Howes:to put places first over the people.

1:20:58Angela Duckworth:I don't know. Viktor Frankl, I wish I'm not going to put words in Viktor Frankl and he probably would say, oh, it's both. He probably put people first. But Viktor Frankl had a debate. When you talk about what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Lewis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, right? It's about pointing towards something that's not you, right? Greatness isn't Self-actualization, it is what Frankl called self-transcendence. So, again, I don't know that people, like, got into the nitty-gritty of what Viktor Frankl wrote about for the rest of his life.

1:21:31Angela Duckworth:Because he wrote over 30 books, right? Man's Search for Meaning was the first. He had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow's higher— Yes. Wow. They were contemporaries. Both Jewish. Abraham Maslow, born in the Bronx or something, or Brooklyn. So, like, did not survive the concentration camps. But they sparred, right? They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debate each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence. In other words, what is greatness? Yeah. And in 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs on the bottom. It's like, you know, food and survival.

1:22:10Angela Duckworth:Exactly. All the survival needs. And then it's like and then there's to love and be loved and then there's esteem. But the top. Right. So, you know, he never drew a pyramid. But the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts and your ambitions. But that was not what you gave. You said in service to others. Right. So the debate was that Viktor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He called it self-transcendence. He said it's not self-actualization. It's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people.

1:22:45Angela Duckworth:So I will just say that I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence. I like it. And you can either take that lesson or the fact that, like, you know, Viktor Frankl doesn't want you to be a masochist and, like, suffer in illusions. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage. He doesn't want you to have a toxic, you know, work environment. But I do think that there is so much wisdom there. And I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response.

1:23:18Angela Duckworth:And in there, there lies freedom. And I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah. Like, marry Martha or Jason. Like, find your Martha. Like, find your Jason. Yes. Like be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you.

1:23:35Lewis Howes:Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I want to make sure people get the book Situated. It's out right now. And also hopefully we see you more on Instagram because I saw some sparse content on there, but hopefully you're on there more frequently in the future. We're working on it. I changed that situation.

1:23:51Angela Duckworth:You're going to see me more on it.

1:23:52Lewis Howes:Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. And Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much.

1:24:01Angela Duckworth:I enjoyed it.

1:24:02Lewis Howes:Thank you. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

1:24:56Lewis Howes:on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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