World’s TOP Productivity Experts: 3 HABIT HACKS to Crush Anxiety & Reach Your Full Potential

29:13How long does it take to actually form a habit? And it's dependent on what habit you're trying to create. and are there also also are there different stages of building and forming a habit? That's interesting. The stages part's interesting. People don't usually ask that. Okay, so very popular question. How long does it take to build a habit? It does depend on the habit you're building. So there are a variety of studies that show, you know, if you pick an easy habit, you know, might only take a couple weeks. If you pick something really difficult, maybe it takes six or seven or eight months, like, you know, who knows.

29:46but it also depends like the same habit can take very different amounts of time depending on the context. Imagine one person who's trying to build the habit of doing yoga every day and they live with a bunch of athletes or people who go to yoga studios or whatever. And then the other person is trying to build a habit of doing yoga every day and they live with nobody who works out and they kind of get criticized or poked fun at if they do it in front of them. Well, same habit, but very different situations. And so the environment's going to influence how much friction you're feeling associated with that.

30:17And obviously that will influence how easy or difficult it is. So I don't really know that the timing tells you anything, you know, there's all these kind of popular myths, 21 days or 30 days or whatever, and there's not really anything to back that up. But there's also a couple of studies that say on average, it's like 66 days or something like that. But again, the range can be quite wide depending on the habit. So I think the true answer, the honest answer to how long does it take to build a habit is forever. Because if it stops, if you stop doing it, it's no longer a habit, you know, like, and what I'm trying to get at with that is habits are not a finish line to be crossed.

30:55You know, they're a lifestyle to be lived. It's something to integrate into your new normal. It's not like, Hey, let me just do this for 30 days or 66 days, and then I'll be a healthy person, or then I'll be productive or whatever, you know, I won't have to think about it anymore. It's like, no, like what we're looking for is a change. that you can integrate into your new normal, something you can make part of your lifestyle. And then once it's part of your daily life, great, you can start to look at the next habit and try to integrate that one. And it's a, it's kind of this endless process. And maybe that encourages you a little bit more to look for a non-threatening change or a sustainable change rather than just trying to flip a switch.

31:31Yeah. And it also sounds like a habit is only a habit and correct me if I'm wrong, if it becomes and is your identity on a consistent basis. And if it's not your identity, then you're not doing it if it's not your identity. I don't think most researchers would define it that way, but it speaks to this question you asked about stages. And that was kind of the first thing that I thought about when you mentioned that question. So like, let's say, for example, let's just take like a classic habit, like going to the gym and working out. so early on going to the gym is kind of uncomfortable you know you're worried about like are people judging me do i look stupid i don't know what exercises to do um you know like i don't know where to put my stuff do they have a water fountain at this gym or do i need to bring a water bottle there's like all these like stupid little questions that you're thinking about when you're getting started and it's definitely not part of your identity you haven't shown up enough to be comfortable there and feel like hey this is just part of who i am and so early on the kind of the first stage when you're practicing it, I think the number one thing you need to do is scale it down, reduce the scope, and try to make it as easy and as frictionless as possible to show up each day.

32:40So that's probably like stage one is how do I make this? It's the opposite of what people try to do when they're like, I'm out of shape. I'm going to go every day for the next year, and I'm not going to miss a day, and I'm going to eat chicken and salad every day. Well, and you know what's interesting is, especially for ambitious people, it's really interesting or really easy to fall into that pitfall. Because when you sit down and you think about the changes you want to make, yeah, it's easy to get excited about that. I think implicitly you kind of, even though people don't say it, what the thing that's kind of in the back of their mind is, what can I achieve on my best day?

33:10Like, how can I get to peak performance, you know? And instead, I almost think it's more useful to ask yourself, what can I achieve even on the worst days? Like, what habit could I stick to even on the bad days? Because then if you start there, now you can start to build some momentum. You can show up consistently. you can establish the habit and you know, you can keep going. So that's maybe the first stage is scale it down. The second stage is you start to get some like other rewards associated with it. So you've been going to the gym for a few months and then maybe you start to see a little bit of a change in your body, or maybe you start to develop some friendships there and you look forward to seeing your new buddy there and you guys fist bump and you chat a little bit.

33:49And it's just like kind of more engaging and fun to do it, uh, to go there and, you know, work out. And so these are like other benefits, things that make the habit feel good and they kind of help you show up more and more. So you're starting to get these external benefits that are coming along the way. And then ultimately, maybe the final stage or a later stage is now it feels like it's kind of part of my identity. I go, like this is where I would say, so I've been working out for a while now and it's probably like the habit that I care most about, like in terms of personal habits, it's the one that feels like it centers me or it's the only time I really get for myself.

34:24And so I want to work out now. Yes, of course, I want the benefits of it and the physical changes and all that stuff. But what I really want is I just feel good when I do it. I feel like I'm being me, I'm being the kind of person I want to be. And it makes me feel like, yeah, this is the identity I want to have, this kind of person I want to be. And so I can get that satisfaction instantly. Like as soon as long as I'm doing one rep, I get that feeling. And so that's a reward that comes maybe later. You got to show up a lot before you get to that place mentally. But I think ultimately that's where you're trying to get to.

35:02Now, there is there is maybe one more stage after that, which is. The tighter that you cling to your current identity, the harder it becomes to grow beyond it. And so this is kind of an endless process, you know, like you, we all can sort of think Think about like, let's say you have a surgeon who they've been doing an operation a certain way for the last 20 years, and they have a bunch of successful patients and cases from that operation. And they just are like, yeah, you know what? I know it works well this way. And then a new technology. Yeah. Yeah. A new technology comes along and they're like, you know, hey, you can do this with robots now, or you can do it laparoscopically or whatever.

35:42And they resist it because they're like, no, I have a lot of evidence for doing it my old way. They cling to that current identity and it's harder to grow. And five years from now, they find themselves behind the curve. Or you've got a teacher who they've been doing their lesson plan the same way for the last 10 years, and they don't want to integrate YouTube or some new learning modality or whatever. And five years from now, they find themselves behind the curve. And so the tighter you cling to your current identity, the harder it becomes to grow beyond it. And it's kind of this endless cycle.

36:11In the early stages, what you want is to foster the identity, to like reinforce being that kind of person because it helps you show up. But then eventually, a couple of years from now, the world changes and you need to adapt. And so it's kind of like evolve or die. And you need to continually be retouching or optimizing or refining that identity in your approach. And so there are some various stages there, but those are kind of some of the big ones that stuck out to me. yeah and it's like people who are stuck to whatever fax machines and then it's you know then from faxing to email and then email to you know cell phones and whatever it is it's like our grandparents don't keep up with the technology and then we can't call them on facetime because they don't know how to turn it on or whatever so that's interesting there it sounds like there's different stages to these habits and it sounds like when you become successful the habits that got you here may not necessarily get you to the next stage or season of accomplishment fulfillment success, health.

37:09Is that right? Yeah, it's interesting, because I would say there's kind of like two categories, their habits are like timeless that you the we call those the fundamentals of whatever your domain is, you know, like, in my case, reading and writing are probably always going to be habits that will serve me as an author, you know, but then there's other stuff, you know, the way that I executed the book launch for atomic habits, you know what, like, if I launch another book in 10 years, a lot of those strategies will probably be outdated. And And so you need to upgrade and improve. You need to evolve and change.

37:38And so there's both the fundamentals that you always need to stick to. And there's just this continual growth and learning process that you also have to be committed to. What's the habit you think you're going to need to innovate over the next one to two years in this season of life that supported you to getting here, but won't support you to the next level? Yep. My biggest fear is that I know how to write a good book, but the way that I know how to do it doesn't work for me anymore. So I had a, I had a, um, a period the last like six to nine months of writing atomic habits where it was just all that I was doing, you know, it was like, I would wake up, I'd write for 12 hours a day or edit for 12 hours a day.

38:22I'd go to sleep. I dream about it. I'd wake up again and do it all over. And that was just like, it was this kind of, I don't know, to call it a dark period is probably too extreme, but it was just like this very intensely focused period. And I can't do that anymore because I have kids and I got a family and it just doesn't work. So I know that if I can force myself to go through that, which by the way, that was a difficult thing. My little mantra for that period of life was, Alain de Botton has this quote where he says, of many books, the reader thinks this could have been truly great if only the author was willing to suffer a little bit more and i just kept telling myself it's kind of true though yeah i mean so i just that was like my little mantra was like this can be great but you just have to be willing to suffer a little bit more and so i just told myself that like every day um and you know i just uh can be true and it cannot it's also not true you know it kind of depends on how you create you know for For sure.

39:21I, I just can't, I can't do it that way anymore. So I have to go back to that little thought experiment that I mentioned earlier, where I've got this new constraint. And so now I have to ask myself, okay, if I can only write for one hour a day, how could I write a book that's even better than a topic than atomic habits? How can I write something even better than atomic habits? If I can only write for one hour a day. Now you got a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer yet, but that's my little, that's the, that's the thing I'm noodling on for right now. That's the better question that hopefully that is a, That is a great question.

39:52I mean, again, it goes back into maybe you didn't think it was possible with your newsletter because you had to do whatever, 10, 15 hours a week on it. And now you're doing two. And it's impacting people, you know, in a potentially a greater way with the results it's getting. So it's, I think there's a world in which you could write two hours a week and write a better book. There's got, it's got to be possible. You know, I mean, the, the obvious answer is like, well, it'll just take longer, you know, like, but. But I also don't want to – But if you had to do it in the same – if you had to do it in one year, I'd bet there's a way.

40:25So that's where the question gets really interesting. If you throw another constraint and you say, okay, you can only write for one hour a day and you only get two years. Can you write something that's better than Atomic Habits? I think you would. I think you would because, again, you've got 10, 15 years of experience writing now. You know what works. You can do it faster. You can pull into your archives of memory better. you have all the documentation from the previous you know you've got this skill now that it it should flow more effortlessly if you allow it to but we'll see i appreciate your uh your enthusiasm and uh encouragement about it because i'll need it but i i don't know we'll see that's that's my little task is to see if i can find an answer i'm curious i uh it's another personal question for you i um when i when i interviewed liz gilbert about you know she did you pray love which i I think did 10 or, I don't know, 20 million copies, whatever it's done.

41:18It's done over 10 million copies, right? And I remember her talking about, you know, is my best selling work behind me? Yeah. And kind of that, is it, you know, the fear or the worry or just the thought about it. I'm curious for you, in your opinion, what are three to five non-negotiable habits that every human being should, and if they could do on a daily basis, it would improve their lives and everyone's life around them? What are those non-negotiable habits on a daily basis we should do? Yeah, three habits that would improve everybody's lives on a daily basis. It's so hard to give an answer like that because obviously everybody's, you know, dealing with different stuff.

42:01But there are a few things I think, I do genuinely think most people would benefit from. So the easy answer would be, or the easy way to frame this would be reading, but I don't think it actually has to be reading books. I think it just is the habit of learning something new. So if you, you know, listening to podcasts, reading a book, watching a good YouTube video, whatever, it doesn't matter what version of that it is. But if you go to bed a little bit smarter than you were when you woke up, that's going to improve your life. And just having this thirst for lifelong learning, having an eagerness to learn or discover something new each day, it's going to pay off in a huge way in the long run, no matter what topics you're interested in.

42:42So a habit of some small habit of daily learning, let's just call it, learn something new for 10 minutes each day. Some sort of physical activity, you know, this is, I think, an important realization about all habits, which is in most areas of life, there might not be a thousand ways to do something, but there's almost always more than one way. And, you know, I like working out in the gym, but not everybody wants to train like a bodybuilder and that's fine. You know, like you can kayak or go running or rock climbing or ride a bike or whatever. There's like a bazillion ways to live an active lifestyle.

43:21And you should choose the version of your habits that is most exciting to you. Like in a, in a way that's the first biggest hurdle to clear when you're building habits is have you selected a habit that you're genuinely interested in that you're actually engaged with. Because if it's something that you actually care about, there are going to be like endless opportunities for improvement. If you're not actually care, if you don't actually care about it, if you're just doing it because you kind of feel like society's encouraging you to do it, or your parents want you to do it, or your peers are kind of subtly saying, hey, this is something you should do, then even the obvious improvements are going to feel like a chore.

43:59So let's call it 10 minutes of learning something new, some sort of physical activity, whatever is exciting or interesting to you. And then I think the other one is a process, a habit of reflection and review. So it's very easy in life to be so busy or working on stuff heads down, or just have the next task come up, whether it's things you got to do for your kids or responsibilities at work, that you never take even five minutes to step back and just breathe and ask yourself, am I working on the right thing? You know, am I directing my attention and energy to the highest and best use? And boy, there is nothing so wasteful as working hard on the wrong thing.

44:44You know, like so many people work really hard, but are you directing your energy and attention to the best spot? And so the only way to discover that, like, I know I'm not smart enough to figure it out on the first time. Like I can't, I can't just sit down, give me five minutes and be like, oh, this is exactly what I should be focused on. It takes iteration. It takes refinement. It takes a process of reflecting and reviewing and looking back on the previous day and be like, hey, was that a good way to spend my time? Like, did I live a good life today? And the more that you do that, the more you start to course correct.

45:17And the other tricky thing, and the reason this needs to be a habit that you revisit consistently, I don't necessarily think it needs to be daily, but consistently, is the answer changes over time. You know, like what you want shifts over time, the situation you're in or the resources you have or the time you have shifts over time. And so you need to keep coming back to this. Maybe it's every week, maybe it's once a year, but whatever it is, you need a chance to reflect and review and to try to ask yourself, is there a better way to do this? Am I working on the right thing? Am I working on what actually matters?

45:52Am I directing my attention and energy in the highest and best way? Yeah. And how important is accountability then in your mind when we are taking on these new habits for ourselves? Is it important to have self-accountability, buddy accountability, coach accountability, you know, social accountability? Do those support habits, forming these consistent habits? and what other factors are in play there? They definitely support them or hinder them, potentially, depending on the people you're around and the group that you're a part of. Ultimately, the form of accountability that matters the most is self-accountability.

46:33It's almost impossible to exceed the standards that you have for yourself. That almost always sets the baseline. If your beliefs or your standards are almost always going to be the limit on what you allow yourself to do or what you accept. Now, it's easier to stick to high standards in a supportive environment than it is in an unsupportive one. So there are a lot of things that can influence whether you want to maintain that standard, but ultimately the standard you hold yourself to is going to be the most important thing. Now, having said that, I do think that the social environment, the tribes that you belong to influence your habits in a really dramatic way.

47:13So if I had to pick one topic that I think is even more important now than I realized when I was writing the book, I would probably say the social environment. You know, we're all part of multiple tribes. Some of those tribes are like really large, like what it means to be American or what it means to be Australian. Some of those tribes are small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street or a member of the local CrossFit gym. but all of those tribes, large and small, they have a set of expectations. You know, they have a set of social norms. They have a set of beliefs that, Hey, this is how you act in this group.

47:47This is what's normal and expected. And the more that your habits align with the expectations of the group, the easier it is to stick with them, the more like appealing and attractive they are because they signal to the people around you, Hey, look, I belong to, you know, like I'm part of this. And the more that they go against the grain of the tribes that you belong to, the harder they are to stick to because you start to get criticized for them. And if people have to choose between, you know what? I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in. I belong. I'm part of something. Or I have the habits that I want to have, but I'm cast out.

48:23I'm ostracized. I'm criticized. I mean, the desire to belong will often overpower the desire to improve. You know, belonging will, the loneliness will lose to belonging. And so you need to get those two things aligned and join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. It is so true. And it doesn't mean you can't make it happen. There's a great example that came up this week. Someone on my team on our team call said, I asked, I asked everyone on the call, I said, what is one thing you want to let go of next year for your life? Like, what's one thing that's not serving you right now that you want to let go of?

48:59And this person said, I want to let go of drinking, drinking alcohol, like, or at least drinking as frequently as I do with the social circles that I'm in. And I thought that was interesting, because I've never been drunk in my life. I don't drink. It's not it's not a part of my identity, right? I never did it from sports. And then after sports, I was just like, why? It didn't make sense to me. Nothing good or bad about it just wasn't fitting my values. Personally. I have other problems, which is sugar, right? It's like, I've got that. That's my vice, right? So no judgment here. But I was just like, this never stopped for me, you know, in every until maybe the last four or five years, where anytime I'd go out in college, after college, then the business world, restaurants, networking events, like all that stuff, people would always try to influence me to drinking.

49:50And so I had to be I had to be so firm in my beliefs and really just not even care at all about it. I just knew that people were going to try to influence me. They would try to say a joke. They'd be, I can't believe you never drank all these different things. Try to get me to drink for the first time, all this stuff. I knew it happened every single week. And I just realized, okay, this is going to happen no matter what type of circles I'm in, unless I find people that do not drink, which is very rare. And which is one of the reasons why with my girlfriend, when we started dating, I was like, listen, it's not going to work.

50:21If you like to drink, I don't think I can date you. Like, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. I just don't want to be in that environment. for the rest of my life with the person I'm choosing to be with. And so I had to make a conscious decision. And she was like, well, I don't really need it. Like maybe I drink a glass of wine once a month. I'm like, okay, that's fine. But if this is a weekly thing, like it's just not going to work because I've chosen this to be a high priority of my value for my life. And it's very challenging if there's something you want to do and the people around you are influencing you the other way in terms of accountability.

50:57So I think it doesn't mean you can't do it, but choosing to be around people or groups or tribes, like you mentioned, that are supportive, even if it's the local CrossFit gym or whatever it might be, find those communities as much as possible. You know, if your family isn't as supportive, find these other micro tribes to support you in that habit form. So I think it's really powerful. It's so much easier to stick to a habit if you're in an environment that supports it. And there's this whole chapter in atomic habits. It's called the secret to self-control. And one of the surprising things that I came across when I was researching the book is a lot of these self-control studies, we typically will like kind of the standard story we all tell is, oh man, I wish I had the discipline of that person.

51:39Or I wish I was, you know, as consistent as this professional athlete or whatever. But in fact, um, the people who exhibit the highest self-control are often the people who are tempted the least. That's like the predominant pattern that is common across those different contexts is that they are just not - Don't put cookies in your house, you're not gonna eat them, yeah. And so, you know, you want to stack the deck in your favor and design an environment or join groups and tribes where your desired behavior is normal, where your desired behavior is easy. And if you do that for yourself, sure, you'll still have to put effort in, but it's gonna be so much more productive and easy to stick to the habit because you're in a space and a context that's designed to support it.

52:21And that's maybe one of the biggest hacks or strategies for building better habits is worry a little bit less about having superhuman willpower and worry a little bit more about designing an environment where you don't need willpower at all. You did something really smart, which I think a lot of people aren't willing to do. You spent 10 years writing every week in an incredible article or articles that were so detailed, so thought out, so researched. And you said, how can I serve the maximum number of people in my niche and then start branching out into space as well and do it consistently over a decade without really making a lot of money selling other things?

53:07and then you came out with a book. And now this doesn't happen for everyone, but then you came out with a book and it became one of the best-selling books of the year, of the most-selling book of last year on Amazon, like you said, top five, I think, this year as well. And it just continues to add value to people. And I think it's a testament to what you created for a decade plus of adding value. So congratulations on everything, man. Yeah, thank you. That's very, very nice of you to say. It's been a wild ride. There are a couple of things going on there. I do try to operate with this core value of always give value before you ask for value.

53:42And if you think about in any business, but like in my business, writing books, the amount of what it costs a reader or what it costs a customer is not just how much they have to pay for the book. It's also how much time they have to spend reading it or finding it and so on. And whatever that total cost is, time plus money, that's like the amount they have to pay. And then whatever I get paid is what I make. But what they get in return should be like well in excess of that. So like the value they get minus the time and money they spend, there's some surplus there and we could call it whatever.

54:20But I like think about it as like goodwill. And I always want to have a surplus of goodwill. And so everything that I create, whether it's an article or a newsletter or the book, I I want people to have this feeling that it's like, oh my gosh, I get so much out of this. Of course, I would want to open the next email. Or of course, I would want to buy the book. It's like such an obvious win for me. So I always try to give value before I ask for value. And I don't think that there's any one way to do this. Like you could start with the book and not have an audience, for example. But the way that I did it is I wanted to focus on building the audience first, building the platform first, give as much value as possible, get the audience as large as possible.

55:01And then I was able, you know, I didn't have any credentials, right? Like I don't have any background for, and there was no reason for me to get a book deal. I was just a guy with a blog. And the only reason that any of the publishers in New York met with me is because I spent that time building the email list and developing the audience. And then that got my foot in the door and got the book deal. And then of course you have to execute well on that and create something valuable. And then, you know, ultimately the book being a hit was sort of just all this potential energy that had been built up for two years or five years or whatever.

55:34And then it being released when the book came out. So I, you know, to a large degree, I kind of think that's the hardest thing about writing books is all the work is up front. You know, you have to build the audience and write it and edit it and make the marketing plan and start to record interviews and execute on that. You have to do all of that stuff before you sell a single copy. And most people are just not willing to delay gratification that long. You know, I mean, it's probably, depending on how you measure it, Atomic Habits took somewhere between like three and six years. Definitely at least three years, because that's how long it was from when I got the book deal.

56:12But I was doing a lot before I even got the book deal. So, you know, it's just a long time to work on something without making a cent from it. And so if you're willing to do that, then you can get a great result. And here's the challenge, though. Sometimes people are willing to do that, and they don't get the result that they're looking for. They go all in. They take two years or four years working on the book. And it's not maybe a flop, but it doesn't get the expectation they might have of like, oh, it's going to sell 10 ,000 or 20 ,000 copies or 100 ,000 copies. And they realize actually how hard it can be to sell books.

56:48and that can be discouraging for people too and say, well, okay, this didn't work. I'm not gonna do it again. But I think that's not the way to look at it. It's like, whenever I do any project, and I remember I'd started this with my podcast 10 years ago. It'll be 10 years in January. I said, if this impacts one person in a positive way, it's worth it for me at the time, right? And I think about that with my books and my work where it's like, if this can, yes, I have goals and yes, I wanna do certain things, But if it can impact a few people and really support them and getting out of a lot of pain or overcoming some challenge that's been a hurdle for a long time, then it'll be worth it for me.

57:27You know, yes, I want to make money. Yes, I want to make, you know, return on my investment, all those things. But I think when we get caught up in that focus, we lose sight of the true purpose of it, the mission of why we're creating something. Well, the two things are connected. You know, part of it, like I was just saying, if you do a good job of delivering value to people, solving their problems or helping them in some kind of genuine way, then it tends to be the case that those sorts of products sell better and, you know, spread wider. I mean, Atomic Habits is sold over 10 million copies.

57:59My audience, you know, my email list now is 2 million people, but like where are those other 8 million coming from? And I'm not even saying that everybody in my audience bought it, right? So it has far outpaced my ability to promote it. And the only way that that happens is if the product is good enough that other people feel like, oh, I have to tell somebody about this. You know, it's like it's been so useful for me that I have to share it. And so ultimately, it always comes back to creating the best possible product. And I like Seth Godin's little like measure for this, which is if you want word of mouth, then you need to create something remarkable.

58:35and that means that it's worthy of a remark, you know, that it's worth talking about. And so ultimately it comes back to word of mouth. And the only way to really get that is to actually deliver on your promise to actually create something super valuable. Now, that said, there are tons of people out there who pour their heart and soul into a product or to try to their best to deliver value and maybe still don't see the outcome that they want. And so you do need that. Like that's kind of the first hurdle to clear but there's a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes with a product like Atomic Habits.

59:09There's obviously my ability to promote it in my audience. But again, that's not enough on its own. I think a couple of things that are really like working in my favor. So the first is the frame of the book or just the topic that you choose. The example I like to give is there's a chapter later in Atomic Habits where I talk about deliberate practice. Now, it could have been a book about deliberate practice where I talk about habits. But instead, it's a book about habits where I talk about deliberate practice. And the difference in how those two books would sell is enormous. Because I don't need to convince anybody that habits are important.

59:51Like you just kind of get from growing up in society that having good habits is favorable and having bad habits is unfavorable. And so it taps into a desire that people already have. And what I have to do is to say, hey, this is the best possible solution for that problem. This is like, if you want the most comprehensive guide on the topic, if you want to see all the tools and strategies laid out in an easy to understand way, and if you want these strategies to be easy to apply, this is the book that'll help you do it. But I'm not trying to convince people that it's worthwhile at all. And I actually think, even though most authors don't think about it that way, a lot of the time they are kind of fighting an uphill battle.

1:00:28They're trying to convince people to care about a topic or a framing or a positioning that they're just not naturally interested in. So I think that's just one of many things that you can look for is like, yes, you need to try to provide excess value, but you also need to position the product in a way that you're swimming with the current rather than against it. You know, like it's so much easier to promote something if the wind is at your back.

1:00:58for those that aren't growing on a consistent basis and they're more on autopilot what happens to majority of those people and what about the people are saying this seems like a lot of work robin and you're tiring me out with all this growth talk and you know i just want to live a simple life and you know i'm happy with where i'm at what would you say from the pushback on that i would say are you really happy or have you seduced yourself into thinking that you're happy as a way to survive. The truth is the truth is the truth. If someone comes up to me and says, I am a gardener and I am chasing my bliss and I've got the life I'm handcrafting, I will get down on my knees and salute them for their honor because all dignity has labor and who am I to judge someone else's journey?

1:01:41Yes. If they are truthfully happy, they are far wiser than I am. But if it's a mask, if it's i'm i'm happy but they're not really happy unconsciously perhaps their heart is broken and they've just given up on life then i i would say you know yes this sounds like a lot of work but actually if you do it it's incredibly fun yeah i mean here's my experience it might not be all your viewers experiences but getting up in the morning and running the 5am club protocol is fun. Dopamine pulsing through my brain is fun. Serotonin is the antidote to unhappiness. It's fun. Reducing your cortisol is fun. Being fit is fun.

1:02:27Reading amazing books brings me alive. Following my craft is fun. Serving people is fun. Getting to travel is fun. And on the point about, well, what about when you just want to watch Netflix? What about when you just want to eat a pizza? What about when you just want to rest? So much of the Everyday Hero Manifesto is so disruptive against the hustle and grind culture. I believe live your life in seasons. There's a time to be super productive and there's a time to just enjoy the fruits of your labor. John Lennon said, time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. And I think that's a great way to be versus 24-7 on.

1:03:08Absolutely. When has been the time in your life where you needed to go through a big spiritual purge? And what was the lesson you learned on how to get through that? I think it's a brilliant question. First, I'd say I'm really happy for the place that you're at. Thank you. And yet the place that you were, you once were, had great magic to it as well. Absolutely. Bad day for the ego is a great day for the soul. And I think, you know, we are closest to our greatest power when we are on our knees. And if you look at the Mandelas and the Mother Traces, the book is The Everyday Hero Manifesto. Those are the celebrated heroes.

1:03:45Right. But if you look at the great ones, they have one thing in common. They suffered more than most people. So suffering, you know, Khalil Gibran, in his wonderful book, The Prophet, Lewis, he said your joy is simply your suffering unmasked. Suffering unmasked. Unmasked. So your joy really flows from your pain. Yes. Our greatness really flows from our disconnection to who we are. And so I'm really happy to see you so peaceful and you're so clear. Yeah. And you're just radiating this great vibe. I wish everyone could feel it. Sure. And yet the place where you were is, I would respectfully suggest not to be discounted.

1:04:30It's okay to not to be okay. And it is the times in the valley of darkness that teach us the great virtues that make us heroic. Absolutely. You know, it's our suffering that teaches us how strong we are. It's our pain that teaches us our true power. It's our difficulties that birth our creativity. It's the tragedies that give us wisdom and teach us love. So enjoy your time in the sun. Absolutely. And I hope no more valleys of darkness for me. You know, it's interesting. I'm sure you're the same way. Whenever someone has gone through a lot of pain or challenges or suffering or events that occurred in their life that seemed overwhelming in their life, if they look back 10, 20 years later, if it's 10, 20 years has passed, a lot of people say they want to change that darkness.

1:05:20I know for me, I wouldn't have changed all the things that happened in my life because I don't think I would care as deeply about human beings as I do. I wouldn't want to serve and create something to help others. I'd probably be just more into myself. I don't know, like, what can I make for me? What can I gain for myself as opposed to how could I create to serve? When you look back on the most painful valleys of your life, do you wish you could change them? Absolutely not. It's the old question I get asked a lot, which is, do you have any regrets? And of course not. When I look back at my life, I see it almost as a set of invisible hands creating a magical orchestration and a life school perfectly designed to carry me kicking and screaming into the human being destiny wants me to be.

1:06:13And I'm very practical. The Everyday Hero Manifesto, it's part playbook for exponential productivity. I talk about the seven threats to world class. I share a lot of the methodology I've shared with billionaires, sports superstars, and empire makers. And having said that, the book is also a call to arms on being a spiritual heavyweight. Because what's the point of being top of the mountain but losing your soul in the process? And what I want to bring to as many people as possible is you can be uber productive. You can be an empire maker. You can dominate your domain. You can materialize your primal genius.

1:06:49And at the same time, you can be so loving to people and you can care about the earth. You can care about service. You can care about becoming the person your higher power wants you to be. And if you can marry those two universes, then I think you've done your job. And so my difficulties, and I've gone through a lot of them. There's a chapter early on I mentioned before we went on. That time, 10 years of my private journals were vanished. And Louis, I'm a daily journaler and I've been doing so for going on 22 years. And so I had in those journals, I had my dreams, my hopes. The times that I was heartbroken, I wrote about my difficulties, my weaknesses, my fears.

1:07:44I wrote about my travels. I wrote about my learnings. I wrote about my struggles. Everything was in those journals because that's what journals are for. And one sunny Friday, I went into the cupboard and they were all gone. Where'd they go? Well, you know, I'm going to protect the unpresent because we all do our best based on the place that we're at. And I'm not going to judge. I have absolutely no bitterness or anything. because it served me again. It was a platform for possibility because that taught me one of the most powerful lessons I think a human being can learn, which is the ability to let go.

1:08:30It's okay, so what? Someone sees them. One of my favorite movies is a Jeremy Renner movie. And in it, he says, you look inside every person's life and what you see, the movie is called Kill the Messenger. And he said, look inside anyone's life and what do you see? a three ring circus. And so what are they going to do? If they look inside my journals, they see a man who has dreams and ethical ambitions and aspirations and wants to live beautifully. And they see a man who's flawed and scared sometimes and has things to work through and has struggles like anyone. And that just makes me human. What's the biggest fear insecurity you had about what people might know about you from from those journals or what might people might know about you now of fear and insecurity that if people knew that would make you feel i don't know if they really want to know this i think just how much pizza and chocolate i know um no i would say well there there's there's another thing i write about in the book which is the whole idea about being good enough And we all have our own struggles based on our own ancient wounds.

1:09:40But one of my core themes that I've been working on for many years is just not feeling, it's not imposter syndrome, but it's just not feeling good enough. Like no matter what I achieve, what's the next mountain top? How long have you felt that? Probably since I was a little kid. Really? Yeah, and it's served me well in the sport that I'm in. Yeah. Because you just keep on pushing. And I think if you look at the great ones, the Michael Jordans and the Kobes and the Muhammad Ali's and the Bobby Fishers and the Hedy Lamars and the Mandela's, I think they all share a similar wound. I think what can be a curse can also be a blessing.

1:10:24But for me, just because you've asked, it's that feeling like no matter how many books I write, no matter what I do, what's the next mountaintop? And that can lead, I think I'm a very happy, content person, but it can lead to a frustration. I mean, 20 million copies sold of your books. How many books do you need to sell in order to feel like you're enough? Well, ask James Patterson and Paulo Coelho. No, I'm joking. You know, and that's where. And how can, you know, I'm asking this question for you, but also for everyone listening. It's like, okay, if people haven't written one book that they've been trying to do, if they haven't done a fraction of what you've created, how can they feel enough if you can't feel enough?

1:11:09I think part of our neurobiology is progress. Yes. So I think, you know, when you look at the healers and the emotional pundits, they say heal the wound. And I understand that. And there's a very powerful tool in the Everyday Hero Manifesto that has served me dramatically as well as my high-level clients. It's called the AFRA tool. And it allows you to move through micro and macro trauma in very profound ways. How do you use it? It takes a while to explain it, but basically you go into the body, you get very, very present. Let's say it's a situation where you get activated, you get jealous, or you don't feel enough.

1:11:49You're triggered. You're triggered or activated. And you literally go in the body and AFRA is a, you find the awareness, so you're located in the body. Where's the pain? where's the tightness the tension it is because what i mean it's such a long conversation but we are taught in our society not to feel so what do we do we become machines yes and that's why we hurt our brothers and sisters and that's why we become selfish versus giving to the world we become machines so we live in our minds we get disconnected from our hearts when we are disconnected from our hearts we are disconnected from our our truth and our truth is creativity Our truth is heroic productivity.

1:12:29Our truth is decency. Our truth is to serve the world. When I was growing up, my dad said, Robin, when you were born, you cried while the world rejoiced. He said, son, live your life in such a way that when you die, the world cries while you rejoice. This is all our truth. But through the micro and macro trauma that we pick up and then swallow, we develop what I call in the book a field of hurt. And I think this is really powerful because we all read books on productivity, elite performance. We all want to be less distracted. But I think the missing link to personal mastery is not in the head.

1:13:04It's not a new technique. It's doing the emotional healing that releases the blockages that build intimacy with who we truly are. And as you do that through the AFRA tool and the other tools that I talk about, each day there's a payoff. And it's that there's a metaphor. I start off the Everyday Hero Manifesto with. And I actually saw this monument, but I was in Thailand and I heard about this golden Buddha. And long story short, there was this incredible priceless golden Buddha, incredibly towering. And the monks loved it and the nationals of the country loved it. And then they heard there were going to be these warriors coming in.

1:13:49So they had to protect their national monument and their treasure. So one monk hatched a plan and he said, let's cover it with layer upon layer upon layer of soil. So they said, that sounds good. And they did it. Eventually the invaders came in and they walked right by it. Many years later, someone was passing by and he saw a glimmer of gold shining out from this mountain of mud. And he started digging and he started moving through the layers. And every time he moved through the layers, there was more and more and more gold that began to shine and he got very excited and he brought his friends together and they started moving through the layers and layers and layers of golden buddha until eventually there was this magnificent monument that was gasp worthy and i cannot think of a more honest metaphor for us as human beings you know we are born into genius but many of us get resigned in apathy and mediocrity And it's these layers of doubt, disbelief, fear, the programming that we are taught that create these layers over our gold.

1:14:52But this work, whether it's the Afro tool, whether it's meditation, whether it's prayer, whether it's sweat lodge, whether it's acupuncture, whatever it is, these modalities allow us to move through the layers if the teacher is right and the discipline is good. So we reclaim that golden Buddha, which is really what the everyday hero is about. We all can be heroic. We just don't know how to get there, and then we're not willing to pay the price to stay with the program. What's the biggest thing that gets us in the way of getting to our heroic adventure? Is it fear, doubt, insecurity, shame, pain, hurt?

1:15:27What is it? Self-forgetfulness. What does that mean? What it means is from the moment we are born, the world does a con job on our greatest self. Our early caregivers, well-intentioned as they are, start messaging their programming, their scarcity, their belief system onto us. We also pick up this micro and macro trauma. You're in grade five. You don't get invited to your best friend's party. You remember it for a year. You remember it for a year. Someone, you're singing loudly in biology class or whatever, and someone says, you sound terrible. You carry that wound for a lifetime. You say, I want to be a billionaire or an astronaut or a movement maker.

1:16:09I want to change the world, mommy or daddy or teacher or best friend. And they laugh at you and they laugh at you for the next three weeks. And then a story gets set up about your undeserved ability. And here's something that any great psychologist will tell you. Your daily behavior is always matching your deepest beliefs. Lewis, it is our story. Our story that we can't be in the NBA. Our story that, you know, obviously you need certain physical attributes, but your story that you can't build a startup, your story that you can't change the world, your story that you can't find love. Because your daily behavior, if you don't think you can find love, you're not going to ask the person out for a date.

1:16:51That's right. If you don't think you can launch the startup that will be the next billion dollar or trillion dollar unicorn, you're not going to pick up the first book. And so I think what it is, it's we forget who we are and then we buy into a story that was taught to us. And then we keep rehearsing the story intellectually, emotionally, physically and spiritually daily until it creates a brainwashing and a heartwashing. And we hypnotize ourself against us for who we truly are. And then we walk out in the world and we see the Mandelas, the Mother Teresas, the Rosa Parkses, or the kind people on the street, or the startup entrepreneurs, or the great artists, or the amazing bakers.

1:17:33And we say, but they are not cut from a cloth that I can wear. And then we resign ourselves to average. Self-forgetfulness. Forgetting who we are. And the stories we tell ourselves. What were you saying? It's the deservedness. Like the behavior, the daily behaviors are what? You're saying something around that and deservedness. Our daily behaviors reflect our deepest beliefs and our income and impact are always aligned with our self-identity. Our income and impact are aligned with our identity. Can you share more on that? It's this inner story. So if you don't believe you are deserving, then you won't find great love.

1:18:19If you don't believe that you have been infused with talent and power because you've been put down all your life, then you have a self-identity of apathy and victimhood. I think a through line through the Everyday Hero Manifesto is you walk out in the world every day and you have a choice. You can subscribe to being a victim or you can subscribe to being a hero. You've got a whole chapter on that, victim to hero leap. So growth is one of those habits on a daily basis. you feel like 95 % of people aren't doing consistently that they could be adding, what would you say are two more habits that the 95 % aren't doing?

1:19:00Well, again, even the question makes me feel like, to answer it would be almost like I'm disrespecting people because I don't want to sound like I'm talking down, but I'd say for me or the people that I mentor, growth is a key habit. I call it the 60-second student. like at least 60 minutes student at least 60 minutes of learning every day is very very powerful i think another great habit is the five great hours rule that i talk about in the book it takes most producers two weeks to do five world class hours of work because we haven't set up our ecosystem because we're not getting into flow state and transient hypofrontality because we're constantly checking our phone if you look at the great geniuses they all had one thing in common.

1:19:49They spent long periods of time alone in their work lab thinking about solutions to their biggest problems. So this five great hours rule, it's set up your workplace so you cannot be distracted. Set up your devices so you can do real work versus fake work and do five sweaty, intense flow state hours versus playing around. And then after that, you've got the rest of the day off you know if you start at eight you finish at one you can go mountain biking be with your family enjoy your life do all those kinds of things so that i think is a great habit you know i'm going to obviously get it saying getting up early and installing the 5 a.m club method it takes 66 days according to the research of university college london to set install a new habit imagine getting up at 5 a.m doing your morning protocol of exercise supplementation journaling, prayer, meditation, etc.

1:20:43Sounds like a lot, but learning chemistry the first time sounds like a lot. Learning Italian the first time sounds like a lot. Falling in love when you're clueless sounds like a lot until it becomes easy. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts, share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well.

1:21:24Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.