Your Body Language Is Telling You You're Not Safe | Amy Cuddy

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25:02Lewis Howes:All rights reserved. Redeem money back guarantee within 30 days of cancellation. As a loyal listener of this show, you're always challenging yourself to grow, to be better, to keep learning. And Southern New Hampshire University can help. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 career-focused degree programs online. Plus, Southern New Hampshire University has some of the lowest online tuition rates in the U.S. So balancing school, work, and life actually feels achievable and affordable, too. Find your degree at snhu.edu slash greatness. That's snhu.edu slash greatness. Talking about the micro instances.

25:41Lewis Howes:Yeah. on how to overcome this if we're if we're feeling like we've got something we want to put out in the world but we're afraid of one or two pointers critics right that aren't going to physically beat us up or kick us out of their lives but how do we what's something like in the moment like like if we let's take an actual you know i often ask people what is your biggest challenge like what is the situation that you approach with dread and that you execute with anxiety and that you leave with a sense of regret. And so if you look at all of the, so dread, that is you projecting yourself into a future that's not gone well.

26:19So you're borrowing trouble, basically. You know, the anxiety in the moment is you thinking more about what the other person thinks of you than what they're actually just thinking. You know, you're worried about what you said a minute ago or what's going to happen afterwards. You're not able to be in the present and then regret is what we call post-event processing. You're going over it wanting a do-over, going, I didn't show, I wasn't seeing, they didn't see who I am. You know that feeling like, oh, they didn't see who I am. And you want to go back in. And like in a rom-com, you get to have a do-over.

26:56Right, right.

26:57Lewis Howes:But in life, sometimes you don't. So that sense of regret becomes like a piece of baggage that you carry into the next similar situation. And then you're worried because you don't want to do the same thing. You put more pressure on yourself. What if we could approach with a sense of composure and execute it with a kind of calm and grounded confidence and leave feeling satisfied? Even if we don't get the outcome that we want, we know that we did everything we could to show up. They saw who I was and it wasn't the right fit or whatever. And I can accept that outcome. So you can both accept the outcome and not have that extra piece of baggage.

27:38Lewis Howes:I was watching a TikTok recently about a mom asking her daughter to go and, I can't remember, do something by herself in a store. And this was like an 18 or 20-year-old. I think she was going to rent a car or buy a car or something like that. She was an older teen or early 20s. And she was franticking. She was like, I cannot go in there alone. Will you come in there and do this for me? Will you come help me? I can't do this alone. the sense of like social interactions online, but the inability to actually be in front of someone and be rejected or looked at funny or learning how to navigate in-person social interactions.

28:18Lewis Howes:Do you feel like people are going to be struggling with overcoming these fears more because of the internet and social media? Or how can they continue to navigate that fear of like the tribe in person, not just online? I don't even know where to begin. It's because there are also, first of all, like if I make any statement about where I stand on that, there will be a million people telling me I'm absolutely wrong. Got it. But that's like, and the truth is complicated, right? And in some ways, social media, like, so, you know, my son's on TikTok and I can't believe the courage he has now to just put a video out there and you know sometimes it goes and sometimes he doesn't and he's not he's fine if it doesn't if it doesn't go if it doesn't move so I think that that's actually been really good for him it's he doesn't feel rejected he just feels like well sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but I'm never going to know if I don't put myself out there right so I think in some ways young people have become more courageous at trying things I mean you know yes I would like than to spend less time on it.

29:33And I like that he's doing music. You know, he's like putting out, my kid's doing quality content. Yeah, exactly, yeah. No, but I think that in some ways it's actually given young people an opportunity to be braver. To express themselves in some ways. And to sort of, to be rejected and see that they've survived, right? Yes. But rejection, the rejection that I'm talking about is a video, a TikTok video not going viral. which is not the same as nasty comments like being rejected and trolled. That's a different kind of rejection. And that's not good.

30:09Lewis Howes:Yeah, yeah. What about just the anxiety of putting yourself out there whether it be going into a store and just interacting with people whether it be giving a speech online something in human interaction in person and feeling embarrassed or rejected or made fun of. How do we learn to overcome that anxiety or stress about it? Is it as simple as just you got to practice it and just know that you're alive? I hate to say something so simple, but yes, like I am, I, I am just not afraid to embarrass myself. And I, I have to sometimes like hold on to that. Like, because I think it's, I think it was really important for my son to see that.

30:59Like, to me, modeling that was really important.

31:02Lewis Howes:Not being embarrassed. Yeah, being, like, you know, making mistakes, being goofy, like doing something goofy in the grocery store. And being okay with it. Yeah, another one is being okay with, like, chatting with a stranger. And maybe they don't want to chat, and that's fine, then you move on. But, like, why not try? I think doing those things, first of all, I think it's great to model that for kids. But I also think it's good to do it just to see that you've survived. You're fine. No one cares. Exactly. No one even cares. I'm not remembering this for the rest of their life. You might have made somebody smile.

31:41Lewis Howes:Right. Right. I'm all about creating social challenges for yourself. Like if you're terrified. Well, I think that's a good one. I mean, like, chat with someone on the train, and I know it's hard right now. Right, right. Do something consistently. Yeah. Or, like, ask someone. Ask, you know, if you're at, I don't know why grocery stores seem like places where lots of silly things can happen. You know, if someone's, like, checking you out, checking you out. Checking you out. Checking you out. But that sounds funny. Checking you out. Checking out your groceries. And they are looking down and they seem, you know, grumpy.

32:23Instead of deciding they're not friendly, consider the possibility that they're having a bad day. And literally like pause and say, how are you? You know, or like try to connect with them without being intrusive. Make eye contact with them. Thank them. You know, make eye contact. Maybe they'll just be annoyed and not make eye contact back. But I feel like that kind of thing is really important to try. And those are things that create sort of social benefits for others as well.

32:53Lewis Howes:Absolutely. This is something you've been studying for, I guess, decades now, which is just mastering confidence, body language, overcoming these challenges. What's been the biggest challenge for you in the last 10 years that you've had to overcome knowing the research and practicing these things and talking about these things yourself? what's been the challenge for you, whether career or personal or... I think the challenge for me has been adjusting to, you know, being more well-known than the average academic, right? Right, right, right. And actually, you know, leaving academia. You know, I still teach, but I'm not, you know, I'm not...

33:34Lewis Howes:Full-time. No. You know, I teach in executive education at Harvard, but I'm not a professor. You know, I'm a lecturer, when I lecture that leaving was hard. Really? So, I mean, it was a big leap to say, to leave that security. But it wasn't, it just was not the right world for me. But I think the biggest challenge really has been dealing with becoming higher, sort of having, becoming higher profile and the kind of backlash that I endured as a result of that. Which is not, yes. And well, yeah, I mean, criticism's fine, but bullying is not, you know? Right, right. And I know that this is common.

34:14Like this happens to, in fact, it happens to a lot of junior professors who give TED Talks. Really? Yeah. It's funny. Somebody just wrote to me yesterday. She has a popular TED Talk. And she, you know, she said that at her university, people started calling her TED Girl and like sort of talking down to her.

34:32Lewis Howes:Even though it was a popular, well-respected TED Talk. Because it was popular, right? Like, it's like if it had been, if it had not really hit the radar, it would have been okay. Really? But because you had some success. Yeah. So people had to sort of diminish her in a way, you know, and I experienced a lot of the same stuff. So what became hard for me was talking to colleagues, right? Like standing up for myself. And, you know, the truth is we need to stand up for each other, right? When people are in an acute bullying situation, they really can't stand up for themselves. But I'm still figuring out how to engage with other people in academia who weren't necessarily bullies but might have been bystanders who didn't do anything.

35:17But to be able to say I still deserve to be having this conversation, I deserve to have the beliefs that I have. I deserve to defend this massive area of research on body-mind feedback, of which I contribute a tiny bit to. Just because these people don't like it doesn't mean I can't say, well, here's why I do believe it. That's really hard for me. That is the thing that I would approach with the most dread, I think.

35:50Lewis Howes:Were you able to implement and integrate some of your own practices and teachings when those things happened to you? when you were getting, whether it be criticism or bullying or, you know, any of the stuff you were facing, were you able to actually integrate the body language for yourself? I mean, for me, the thing that works the best is, I mean, certainly I, you know, I do, like I walk expansively, like I, you know, like long strides before this kind of stressful thing. I do, I won't sit, sit down with my hands in my lap. Like even putting your hands behind your chair. Like this is kind of opens you up a little bit, forces you to open up just doing that.

36:30But the thing that works the best for me is, is, is breathing. And I know there is so much on breath work now, and I don't want to, you know, I'm not an expert, but the relaxation response that's triggered by, by certain breathing patterns is incredibly effective for me. And, you know, so basically it sends your nervous system into this rest and digest state, which is the opposite of fight, flee, or faint. And so the one that I like best is called four, seven, eight breathing, and we can do it right now. So basically for four counts, you inhale. For seven, you hold your breath. And for eight, you exhale.

37:08So I'm going to count and you do it.

37:10Lewis Howes:Okay. Four, inhale. Seven, 10, hold it, 8, exhale. All right. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. And you repeat that a few times? Three times. Like one time you feel it. Yeah. It will put me to sleep at night. You know, if I'm relaxed, it makes me sleepy. But if I'm anxious, it calms me down. So that just, I mean, there's just so much research on the relaxation response and breathing. But what I think is interesting about it is that that kind of breathing is expansive. Just like what I talk about, you know, like expansive posture, that's expansive. You're breathing deeply and slowly.

38:00You're taking up more temporal space. You're expanding your, you know, like your physical body more. And when we expand, we tend to feel more confident, more powerful, more calm.

38:10Lewis Howes:Should we frequently be in an expansive postural state when we're kind of nine to five-ish out in the world doing our activities? What we should be in is having good neutral posture. Before stressful events, that's when I say find a private space. I think I said in the TED Talk, find a bathroom stall, which I honestly think just like I thought of at the moment. but I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who are like, I was in the bathroom. Or like people who see somebody in a bathroom with their arms up in the other, like, are you power posing? Or even Ted Lasso is saying she goes to the bathroom and does that, I know.

38:52I loved it so much. That's so good. You can't imagine. Like, I love that show and I had no idea. You had no idea it was coming. I was like sobbing.

38:59Lewis Howes:I was like, oh my God. Well, it's so cool that you, Brene Brown, and Esa Perel, who I've had both of them on as well, were all featured in there. and I'm just like, that's amazing. I know. And I think all of us were absolutely beyond thrilled. I mean, to have that. And I know I was telling Brene this, but the first time I saw that show, at the end of the first episode, I turned to my husband and I said, I love Ted Lasso. And he goes, that's because you are Ted Lasso. And I was like, well, I guess I had good self-esteem then. But I am Ted Lasso. And so are you. Yes, exactly. It's funny because Brene says that she's Roy Kent.

39:36Lewis Howes:Yeah. Yeah, I guess you can see a little bit. But anyway, yeah. So before these stressful situations, the ones that you approach with dread, that's when you find some space and really make yourself big. Expansive. Like whatever feels comfortable to you, expand. In front of other people, it comes across as really aggressive and domineering and off-putting. but if you're in you know the privacy of your own bathroom stall or office or whatever you can do whatever you want you don't have to worry about cultural norms or or you know putting people off in your our everyday lives we spend so much time like this you know with our phones and that is really bad at first it's bad for us just our posture and it's creating this sort of fixed thoracic stoop.

40:26But, you know, physiotherapists used to only see in, like, elderly people. And now they're seeing it in, like, 15-year-old boys from, you know, gaming, things like that. And that's something, like, you can't just be like, oh, I'm going to sit up straight. You have to, like, work that out.

40:42Lewis Howes:For years working it out. Exactly. Align your body. Totally. But so it's not only hurting our posture, but I believe that it is affecting our mood. And so, you know, even just set up your workspace so that you can be more expansive. But we neglect our body language when we're alone because it's language. And if we're alone, we're not talking to anyone. We're talking to ourselves. But we're talking to ourselves, right? So it's really important, I think, for us to be minding our posture. Also, So there have been a couple of meta-analyses recently, which basically are just studies that look at all of the studies on a topic and come up with a sort of an average effect size.

41:27Like they say, yes, this is a real effect, and this is how big the effect is, right? So studies that have looked at meta-analyses of power-opposing studies show really clearly that it affects the way we feel. By shrinking our body. Shrinking versus expanding.

41:49Lewis Howes:Affects the way, whether in a positive or... More expansive, more confident, and more powerful psychologically. Shrinking, less powerful, less confident. But what's interesting is that there are two meta-analyses. One of them shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between neutral and expansive. The other one shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between, you know, contractive and neutral. So I'm not, we still, in short, there's evidence that both of those things matter. But certainly neutral is better than contractive. Shrinking, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly.

42:31Lewis Howes:And it's probably, you know, even if you were doing a meditative breathing technique, if you're closing your body off and breathing, you're still probably limiting yourself. So you can be breathing and trying to relax the nervous system, but you're closing your body off. It's hard to feel like more alive and confident and calm, I'm assuming. Absolutely. It's funny. I once, this woman wrote to me, she said, I teach people public speaking, and I had this student who was really stressed out, this man. And so I got into power pose for a minute, and he said it made him feel worse. Really? And she said, but then I watched, we watched the video.

43:08She said, I videotaped him. And we watched the video. And I was like, were you breathing? He said, no, I didn't breathe. I held my breath the whole time. Oh, my gosh. He's like, well, that's not going to work. Yeah, you're going to pass out. You're going to faint. Exactly. So he had been like completely still in this power pose. And she, I mean, she was laughing about it. But yeah.

43:28Lewis Howes:How long should we be in an expansive postural states for? You know, it's funny. I really emphasize two minutes in the TED talk because that's what we had done in those first studies. I think actually less is more. Like we've gone out to five minutes. I think that it just gets awkward. It's that silly. You feel weird, but also like your body, you get sort of stiff. So, you know, I just think it's, I don't even think you have to be still. I think you can be moving in an expansive way. You know, I think there's, it's the whole. I sometimes wish that I hadn't called this power posing because it was so, it's such a sticky idea, right?

44:11It's got alliteration. It's like, you know, exactly. Great branding. Exactly. But at the same time, people got fixed on like standing like Wonder Woman or in the victory pose. And it's not, it's being expansive is more expansive than this. Yes. You know, it's in whatever way works for you.

44:32Lewis Howes:Yeah, the tighter you are, the probably less likely that you're going to perform relaxed. Right. And football training before games and in practices, they would always tell us to be loose. Yeah. You know, to move our body, to be flexible, to be expansive, but in a loose state of mind and a loose body. Not like rigid or you can't catch the ball if you're like too tight. So it's how can you be expansive, confident, and relaxed at the same time. Yeah. And practicing that in life with the power pose, I think is great. Yeah. And Ted Lasso, she did it great. She was like, ah, right? It's like a monster pose or something.

45:04Lewis Howes:It was awesome. I think she was like. It's amazing, yeah. She made this facial expression that I thought was great. She's a great actor as well. I wonder if that was like, so if they were like, just do a power pose and she made it up. Yeah, she probably did. I just feel like. She was great. She was great. Was there ever a time where you didn't implement this strategy and you realized, oh, I could have done better had I done this, but I just thought I'd had to figure it out? But only, you know, so I really love public speaking and it doesn't, it's like my favorite professional thing to do. It doesn't make me nervous.

45:42That's good. So for me, I think a lot of people assume that speaking is the thing that makes everyone nervous. So for me, it's not that.

45:52Lewis Howes:What makes you nervous? You know, interpersonal conflict, like one-on-one. or I get nervous in like smaller groups. I don't - Isn't that interesting? Like five or 10 people, I feel the same way. Talking to three people, I find much more stressful than talking to 3 ,000 people. So I don't like to sit in a room for a long time before I'm gonna get up and talk to people. I don't wanna sit there in a cold room. These rooms are often cold. And you're going like this and you're totally sort of stiff. And then you get up and you're like, oh. So I've had that experience enough times to learn I need to be moving around.

46:35I need to be warm, not cold. And come in sort of, you know, right before I get up to present or to discuss. So yes, I've had the experience of being still and kind of, you know, hunched up for too long.

46:50Lewis Howes:So we've got the affirmations we've talked about, self-affirmation, affirming who you are. not just making up lies about yourself. We've got, what's the actual technical term now? Not power posing. It's postural feedback. Postural feedback. And I think the idea is just keep in mind your posture is, there is feedback to your nervous system telling you either I'm safe or I'm not safe. It's kind of that simple. Like you're safe or you're not safe. It's interesting. I learned a technique 11, 12 years ago, about 2009. when I got into the business world and I started going to events and conferences and networking events.

47:31Lewis Howes:I remember feeling like, I'm a nobody. I'm this young kid who was just playing football. I still didn't have a college degree. I was 24. And going into a room with all these professionals and executives. I was like, why would anyone talk to me? Kind of had this feeling early on. And I learned from someone, he said, every time you walk into a door, just act like you're trying to connect the top of your head to the door. And just walk in and stand. Like every time you see a door at any time in your life, just practice. You're walking, you're entering a room just with your, you don't have to put your chest all the way out like crazy.

48:03Lewis Howes:Exactly. Shoulders back just a little bit, your head just a little bit taller, like you're trying to touch the top. Absolutely. And you said walk in with a smile. Yeah. And every time I do that, I practice it just all the time now. It's like it just makes you feel a little bit better, more courageous to actually say hi to someone. A smile, a little taller, your shoulders back just a little bit. Yeah. It really helps with that. So it's something that I learned early on that helped me kind of just gain courage. Well, in ballet, it's very much like imagining that your students are going through. But another technique that I think works really well for me that I learned in ballet is you're looking at the people in the balcony.

48:46And that opens you up. And it also makes you more aware of this interaction. And there's also kind of magic and chemistry in the interaction. right you're not alone yeah and that that that's a whole other yeah not a whole other thing but it's you know that like that ability to be present with people is is like um it feeds on itself right like you become the energy level picks up more and more the more you can build that intimacy with an audience and so by opening up to them you're much more likely to create that intimacy yeah

49:20Lewis Howes:And so, okay, so we've got the self-affirmation to self. We've got the postural feedback. If we can start implementing these strategies. Yeah, I got another one. Give me another one. All right. I love this one. So this was research done by a woman named Allison Woodbrooks, who's at Harvard Business School. She's a professor. And she was like a wedding singer before she went to grad school. Okay. And she just didn't get nervous. And she was really interested in stage fright. Like she was like, why do, I know it's kind of funny. She's like, this isn't hard for me. Why is it hard for you? No, but she's very confident.

49:54But she was really interested in stage fright. And she realized that -

49:57Lewis Howes:And learning why people have stage fright. Right, and she's a very positive person. And I think that what happened, and I don't want to tell her story for her, but my understanding is basically that she realized that for her, the nerves, So basically, emotions have two dimensions, arousal level, like it's a high arousal or a low arousal. And the fear, right? Exactly. And positive, negative. I mean, there's more than that. But like, think of it, those are the two dimensions and emotions can be clustered around those. So she realized that she was having the same high arousal feeling in her body before she sang.

50:40But for her, she interpreted it as excitement. not anxiety yeah and so she realized that it's not that she really was having a totally different experience it's just that she was like i must be excited to do this it's the interpretation exactly so she did experiments um she had people do singing contests using like uh what was the

51:01Lewis Howes:video game rock star was rock star might have been rock star yeah um uh she had them do like debate competitions i think they did a math test maybe different studies but she she assigned them to say to themselves before they did the thing, I am anxious or I am excited. And the people who said, I am excited, just said, I am excited to myself. They did much better. So she calls that reinterpreting anxiety as excitement. So reframe it. So before you go on, her name is Allison Wood Brooks, hyphenated. And yeah, so reframe anxiety as excitement. and this is definitely one of my favorites and i think um i think that that that helps a lot of people the other one is i love that kind of related a bit is is that a lot of times when we go into these stressful interpersonal situations where we know we're being evaluated and where the stakes feel high so like a job interview or or giving a talk or speaking in class or teaching whatever However, the dread leads us also to interpret other people to see them as potential predators, as people who don't want us to do well.

52:21And the thing is, mostly in life, people actually want other people to do well. Yes, there's schadenfreude. We sometimes like to see somebody fail, right? But for the most part, people are there because they want to learn something. They want you to do well. And so it's not comfortable to watch people not doing well. And so when I started teaching at Harvard, I taught at Kellogg for a couple years. And that's an intense place. It's a great school. But there's something about Harvard Business School that has this reputation. You know, so I got there and I was like, I don't know, 32 or something.

53:05And anyway, I was like mid 30s. Not that much older than the students. Right, right, right. So I felt like, you look like you could be a student. You know, I'm not big and, you know, blonde, I'm a girl, all that stuff. So people were like, you cannot show weakness. Really? Like you cannot, a drop of blood in the water, the sharks will come in for the kill. That's bad, huh? So that was sort of, that's what I was told, right? And so I prepared like crazy for that first class.

53:30Lewis Howes:For these 18-year-olds, you mean? Well, no, no. They're like 20. This is HBS. So they're like 28. Okay, got you. They're pretty smart. They're pretty accomplished. They've already accomplished stuff in their life. Yeah. Yeah. So I really prepared like crazy. But I realized that I was approaching it with this like as a warrior. And like, first of all, that's not who I am. Right. And second. The roller skating warrior. Exactly. The roller skating deadhead warrior. Yeah, exactly. I like people. So I'm like, why would I assume that they are looking for me to fail? That they're like sniffing blood?

54:05That doesn't make sense. They paid a lot of money to go here. They work like crazy to get in here. They want to have a good experience, not a bad experience. So I decided to go in with blind trust, like blindly trusting them and not try to sort of fake this, you know, badass, you know, personality that isn't who I am instead to go in and be who I am, assume they want me to do well. And so I went in on the first day and I said to them, here's what I've done. Here's what I love doing. You know, I've not done this before and I'm a little nervous about this, but I think that we are all in this together and I think we want to have a good experience.

54:48So just kind of letting you know where I am. And I feel I'm, I'm in touch with so many of the students from that year, that first year. I think -

54:58Lewis Howes:Was this pre-Ted Talk? Yeah, it was like a year or two before, a couple, three years maybe before my Ted Talk. And that really taught me that if I trust them, they give it back to me, right? You build trust. So I go in with blind trust. I mean, if you think about like in life, you can either in these situations, trust or not trust, like which mistake would you rather make? Would you rather trust and be wrong or not trust and be wrong? Like I'd rather trust and be wrong. Usually it's not that dangerous. I mean, there are some situations where you probably shouldn't trust, but I'm talking about just like average situations.

55:39Why not just trust and occasionally you'd be wrong and somebody

55:42Lewis Howes:actually is right right they humiliate you or they are but it's totally but if you go in and you don't trust anybody nothing good comes of that if they're if they're trustworthy you're not going to build a relationship with them if they're untrustworthy you're not going to build a relationship with them anyway i would just rather make the that the error of over trusting than under trusting wow my friend i hope you're enjoying this episode and the school of greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them.

56:21Lewis Howes:Please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation. At work, greatness sometimes starts with a pile of meeting notes here, follow-up questions there. But that's okay because ChatGPT Work, a new way to work in ChatGPT, can organize multi-step projects and help you make progress while staying in control. ChatGPT Work can use your apps, connected tools, and files to create things like landing pages, trackers, internal tools, even web apps. Say your team has a new product concept.

57:03Lewis Howes:Use ChatGPT Work to review customer feedback. Pull themes and draft a prototype. Maybe there's a planning doc that ChatGPT Work can organize into owners' next steps and a shareable status update. Make it even more specialized by installing specific plugins like Google Drive or Microsoft Teams. The big picture? ChatGPT work helps you get unstuck between thinking about your work and actually making progress on it. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. You know how people sometimes invest in something that seems incredible at first, but then it doesn't live up to the hype?

57:50Lewis Howes:Like when everyone was convinced NFTs were the future and people were buying them for thousands of dollars and now they barely have any value. Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for numbers that look great, like impressions, but then they don't see revenue. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, you can get the highest ROAS of major ad networks with LinkedIn ads. Cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend$250 and get a$250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash Lewis. Terms apply. What did you learn from that first year? teaching at the crazy shark. First of all, they're not.

58:24They're people just like everybody else. Like they've got insecurities too. And, you know, like 75 to 85 % of HBS students at some time feel imposter syndrome. Like they're insecure as well. Like, I mean, I don't, they're no more insecure, but they've got the same stuff that they're dealing with. And, you know, there are a lot of like really wonderful people in there. And the more they, the more you give them trust and get it back, the more they're building trust with each other. So I, I, I just learned to go into every audience and assume that they want me to do well. And that of all of the things, it's funny because my, my son, um, you know, he gets performance anxiety, like probably every musician.

59:09And it's funny because people aren't like, are always like, can't you like, this is your thing. I mean, to me, they're like, how does your son have any performance? Like, well, he's human, but also I'm his mom, right? So it's not easy to learn this stuff from your mom. Of course. But that's the one that works the best for him. I said, why would you go in to a performance situation, a musical performance situation and assume they want you to fail? They don't want you to fail. They want to see you do well. They want to be there. They really want to be there, right? Exactly. So he says that's the one that helps him the most.

59:40Lewis Howes:And just having that thought in your mind before you enter that, they want the best for me. They want to have a good time. Yeah. Something I was nervous for a long time was public speaking. And I did a social challenge for myself where every week I went to Toastmasters. And the first week I wrote out word for word my five-minute speech, which was called an icebreaker. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Toastmasters or if you've been before. And I remember saying to myself, I prepared for two weeks for a five-minute speech. It was so terrified. Yeah. Again, I was 24, going into a room of really great speakers who were all much older than me, executives, professional speakers.

1:00:20Lewis Howes:And I chose that one. I went to five different Toastmasters clubs in Columbus, Ohio. And I chose that one because it was the scariest for me. Ah, that's interesting. And I was like, I don't want to go to the easy place. I want to go to a place that's going to really challenge me. And it terrified me. I remember I wrote it out word for word, and I practiced it for a couple of weeks, and I could not look up the first time. I had to stay here, like looking here word for word, and dripping sweat, just humiliated and embarrassed. But luckily, they're there to give you positive feedback. It's not a bad crowd.

1:00:50Right, they are, that's true.

1:00:52Lewis Howes:It's not like I'm putting myself in front of, you know, critics that are really going to make me feel bad. They're there to say, you know, here's what you did well, well, here's what you can do better next time. But I did that for a year until I felt like I had the confidence and I could go out and get paid to do it. And for years, I would go speak in front of big audiences and get paid well, but I still had a little bit of nerves. And I was like, why have I not gotten rid of this? And I called one of my coaches. This was probably like five years ago. I called one of my coaches and I said, I don't know why I'm still nervous for these events.

1:01:22Lewis Howes:I've been doing this for so long. I shouldn't be, I'm not beating myself up. I shouldn't be nervous now. and he said the reason you're nervous is because you're still worried about what people think about you you're still thinking of you like making sure you remember that joke or maybe sure you're funny here or you don't mess up what if i forget this thing you're thinking about that's that's the distraction right and he was like if you just put your attention attention on how can i be of service knowing i'm not going to be perfect how can i help and add value and entertain or educate knowing i'm going to forget a joke or knowing that the pause isn't going to be there or knowing that I'm going to stutter, just let it go.

1:01:59Lewis Howes:And just be of service. And when I came from that place, I was like, I'm just going to serve. And I know I'm not going to be perfect. I love that. And that has helped me let go of those nerves. I still feel like, you know, the excitement feeling. Yeah. But it's more like, okay, every time I feel like I'm nervous or anxious, this is all about service. Yeah. And my friend Rory Vaden says it's hard to be nervous when your heart's on service. That's so true. I love that. And so I just give your heart to the audience. that's that's the sort of i mean it's very related to this trust yes right like they want to get something out of this um that made me think of two things uh one was that i i once asked the the person that at hbs who i thought was like the best teacher i said to her when did when did you realize that you um like that you were it's clear that she knows she's really good at this right Like, when did you realize that?

1:02:54And she said, I went from being a good teacher to a great teacher. The moment that I stopped thinking about what they were thinking of me and started just thinking about what they were thinking. Right. So I cared about what they, like, I started washing their faces. Were they confused about something that I said? Like, so it wasn't about me. It was about the content.

1:03:16Lewis Howes:Yes. And helping them to learn. Yeah. And I thought that was really good. You know, stop thinking about what they're thinking of you. and start thinking about what they're thinking. Why is that so hard for us to do in general? Well, I mean, it's back to that social rejection piece. Because we're environmentally, sorry, evolutionarily attuned to looking for signals that we're gonna get kicked out. And I don't know why we're still like that. And I don't know of a culture where people aren't like that. It's not like I can think of a society where people don't have that happening. So that was one thing you said you were gonna say.

1:03:49Lewis Howes:Do you remember the second thing?

1:03:53oh no i did remember actually it's that people love okay so the best performances are performances that have never happened before and will never happen again so in front of a live audience like when you go see a part of why i love the dead the grateful dead the dead and company is because they have never played the same show twice like every single show thousands of shows is completely different. They've never played the same set list for the entire set list twice.

1:04:24Lewis Howes:They always change it? Never, yes. Wow. Might be one song different and replaced, but they always... No, no, it's really mixed up. Really? It's really changed. And there are all these jams in between. So, I mean, there are just no two shows that are even close to being identical. That's cool. And that's part of what people love about it. They don't... Yes, sometimes they forget the lyrics. But that's because they've got like, you know, 500 songs on their catalog, right? So, but nobody cares. In fact, like last year, I mean, sorry, last night at Chula Vista, Bob Weir forgot the lyrics. It just like for a minute.

1:04:57And people loved it. The crowd like roared. They love that.

1:05:01Lewis Howes:They're cheering him on to remember it again. Yeah. And it's just like, you're real. You're here with us. You are being here with us. So I always say, give people an experience that has never happened before and that will never happen again. That doesn't mean you have to rewrite a completely new speech, but know that audience, know who they are. and don't be over scripted. You know, people want it to be a bit raw. Yes. And, you know, they remember the performance where somebody, you know, dropped their guitar pick and had to pick and didn't have another one. Or that's, it's like, I got to see that thing.

1:05:33Lewis Howes:Yeah, the mic went out and you had to scream. Exactly, exactly. That's cool. So I think that making mistakes actually is not only not bad, but it makes you more human and relatable. More interesting. More interesting, right. And more memorable. for sure more memorable identity came to my mind just now um and i'm curious about your research or just your personal findings on shaping our own identity with ourselves shaping our identity having an identity and how that helps us how that either helps us or hurts us with our confidence and our personal power well i mean there's so many different kinds of identities that we can have.

1:06:13I think that when we get, I mean, there's.

1:06:17Lewis Howes:Like, is it important to have a specific type of identity? Is it important to have a wide range of identities or things that we're into? Tell me what kind of identity you're talking about. Like, an identity is, you know, I'm a man from Ohio. I grew up in Ohio. I, you know, I love football. I, you know, I love, you know, all these different things that are likes, interests and that we identify as? Well, I think that the self-affirmation stuff is all about values. And so your identity is your values. And that I think is great. Being true to your values is great. The values I'm talking about are not values that need to be flexible.

1:06:58They can be wide. But I think that when we get really identified with a certain group or interest, it can get dangerous. I mean, I think first we stop thinking for ourselves and we start becoming much more, much more concerned about remaining part of the group than about our value, our personal value. Exactly. And so we compromise ourselves to be in the group. And, and I think that that can be really dangerous. Like we're losing our sense of agency for sure, but also, you know, might be doing things that are not good, like not healthy for us or for other people. So that I think we need to stay in check around identity in that way.

1:07:44Just because it's what most people in the group are doing doesn't mean it's what I need to be doing.

1:07:48Lewis Howes:What is something we can do, I guess, to reflect on or give ourselves feedback on a yearly or monthly or daily basis that supports that? I think I, and this is not empirical. I'm just, this is kind of off the cuff, but I've been thinking about this a little bit lately. Like, you know, thinking about what are my identity groups that I chose? Like what are the, what are my chosen identity groups? And, you know, are there things that have happened in those identity groups that I don't agree with, but I, where I didn't do anything to correct it or i i kind of let it slide like how can i keep myself how can i keep myself honest about these identity groups right you know so so because you may like you may like the you know the grateful dead right but there may be things that happen at the concerts that you don't acknowledge you don't like but yes you don't want to be well i'm never going to watch her or support the grateful dead again because this happened that's right but how can i make sure yeah i can enjoy a hobby and an interest but not the the identity of that thing that's right and and and yeah and so so i think that yeah there are things that happen at at uh at shows that i you know haven't been liking lately like you know we talked about this a bit like people being very territorial in the front space which is called the pit you know about their space and being really nasty to each other that kind of goes against to me the whole sort of essence of that community um And I get angry about it.

1:09:17Part of it feels like righteous anger. I want you to not be that way, but I also need to check myself. I don't want to contribute to the anger either. But because it's imperfect, it doesn't mean that I have to leave it. Because I get into that trap sometimes. I sort of get into the like, oh, there's something wrong. I probably shouldn't do this anymore. and I need to accept that nothing's perfect and I'm still allowed to love imperfect things as long as I'm checking myself.

1:09:52Lewis Howes:Right. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. No, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We talked about this a little bit earlier about the kind of fake it till you make it thing, but it's more of like facing it till you make it, I think is how you reframe it, right? I say fake it till you become it. Fake it till you become it. Yeah. Yeah, because it's hard to, Well, it's, you know, why is fake it till you make it harmful? If it's like, let me just keep faking and hopefully that'll happen. I think the problem, and it depends on how people interpret it, I realize. But the way I interpret fake it till you make it is kind of like, you know, sort of, you know, the slick salesperson who like really does not buy what they're selling.

1:10:35but they're going to sell hard. And they're going to be faking. Making it might be being promoted or making a lot of money, but they're still faking it. Faking it till you make it means faking it, getting the promotion and continuing to fake it. Fake it till you become it. And it's also about what you're conveying to other people. Faking it till you become it, the way that I think of this is you're tricking yourself into believing in yourself, right? You're tricking yourself into, you know, like incrementally be a little bit more courageous. And eventually you become the person that you are in your mind's eye as your best self, right?

1:11:29So you're not becoming, I mean, you're basically, it's like, I kind of think of it visually like, you know, you're this, you know, we're not just shells. But think of yourself as a shell and you're sort of half full. You know, faking it till you become it is sort of filling that shell more and more and more. You're partially up, but you're not fully up. You're getting there.

1:11:52Lewis Howes:Because imposter syndrome is a term that's been thrown around a lot in the last couple of years. I'm hearing it all the time. I'm everyone saying, not everyone, but a lot of people are saying, I feel a sense of imposter syndrome, like I don't belong or I'm not ready or I don't have that, whatever. For me, I have, I felt like I had nothing at the beginning and I was just like, I'm just going to throw myself in. And if it works, great. And if it doesn't, I have, I have nothing to embarrass myself because I had nothing. I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half. I had no money. I didn't have a college degree.

1:12:22Lewis Howes:So I was like, there's nowhere else I can go that's worse than where I'm at. I didn't have anything to lose. I was just like, I have nothing to lose. So I'm going to throw myself in there and hopefully certain things happen. So I didn't feel like an imposter. I felt like I'm an experience and I need to figure out how to gain experience by learning skills, by finding mentors, by reading, by consuming content and developing more confidence.

1:12:47Lewis Howes:But why is imposter syndrome become such a popular phrase? And is there a way to actually overcome it? or are we always going to kind of feel like imposters if we're constantly growing? Because there's a new thing that next year I've never done that I'm going to try to do that I'm an imposter because I've never done it. So I'm going to feel a sense of, oh, well, I've never done this. So here we go. If I'm growing as an individual, right? We should always feel it in a sense. Definitely. So I think, okay, to the question about, well, I don't know why it became, it's again, it's a catchy, it's a sticky, it's a sticky term to describe an experience that's pretty universal.

1:13:26And so it became, it's funny because to social psychologists, it's like a thing that we've talked about since the 1970s. Not that I was talking much in the 1970s, but it was coined in the 1970s. And so in academia, it's something we talk about, but it really got sticky in the last, I do think that I talk about it in the TED Talk. I think that was part of it. I think there were some other books that came out They were talking about it. And it just captures the experience so well of feeling like an imposter in your own life, right? But the interesting thing is that, well, first, the woman who coined the term Pauline Clance, who was teaching at Oberlin at the time in the 70s.

1:14:10Really, in Ohio? Yeah.

1:14:11Lewis Howes:That's great. Yeah, Ohio. That's great. My identity. My identity. Exactly. she well first of all she said she says that she she wished she wishes she had not called it a syndrome because a syndrome implies that it's pathological and rare like it's unusual and it's actually so not unusual it's common yeah it's like you know there are different estimates like 75 to 85 percent of people feel imposter syndrome also women do not experience it more than men men are just less likely to openly talk about it. So when it's anonymous, which is a burden, I think, because they think they're the only ones feeling it.

1:14:55Lewis Howes:And then women get the burden of being like, oh, you always feel like imposters, right? So it cuts both ways in bad ways. But I don't think many people stop feeling it if they keep on trying new challenges. So in my book, I interviewed Neil Gaiman, the amazing author of, you know, many, many, many, many bestsellers and, you know, super award winner. And anyway, Neil really had bad advice. Part of why I interviewed Neil, he's a lovely human, but he's one of the only men who talked openly about having imposter syndrome. And so I wanted to talk to him for that reason. Also, he has a way with words.

1:15:42But he said that in the beginning, when he first started writing and was successful, he kept being afraid that somebody was going to come and tap him on the shoulder and be like, are you Neil Gaiman? And he'd say, yes, I am. Say, oh, sorry. You know, we made a mistake. Oh, wow. You know, we're taking all this back. And then he said he finally got to the point he'd written American Gods. which was like his big novel, he said. Like that was the big grand novel. And he said he thought he'd finally conquered imposter syndrome. And he spoke to one of his mentors and said, I think I finally conquered this.

1:16:19And he said, I finally conquered writing a novel. And he said, you never conquer writing a novel. You just conquer writing the novel that you're writing. And so next time, so now a lot of his books have been turned into a really wonderful television series and he's a showrunner, right? And that was a whole new thing for him. So he said, it's just, it just pops up. You see it on your desk. You're like, oh, there's the imposter and he'll go away. And so you, you keep, you experience it every time you start something new, it just goes away faster. You don't, you don't get hung up on it. You don't become anxious about the imposter, the imposter feeling.

1:17:00Lewis Howes:And I think the more you're living your life and creating and building. And if you can start to reflect on like, look at all the times I was feeling an imposter syndrome and look what I was able to create and the results I got and the success or the impact that I had from making this thing or creating this thing, I can do it again. Exactly. It's like looking backwards to see the results. Right. So you have this transferable sense of agency. Like self-efficacy is, I mean, the way it's defined in psychology is like, it's your belief that you're able to do this certain thing. Agency is wider than that.

1:17:36And this feeling of being agentic, like, and I think that when you conquer imposter syndrome again and again, you, that feeling does become transferable, right? And you're like, this is a totally new thing, but like, I've never been part of this rodeo, but I think I'm going to be okay. Right, right. Yeah, exactly.

1:17:54Lewis Howes:You just know, okay, I've done this before many times. I can do it again. And if not, I'll be okay. I'll be all right. I'll survive. Right, exactly.

1:18:30Lewis Howes:for you. Dell.com slash Dell dash pro.

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1:19:22Lewis Howes:It's no wonder more than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. If you've been thinking about therapy but haven't known where to start, BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. Just answer a few questions and get matched with a therapist. And you can feel confident knowing BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com slash greatness. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com slash greatness. I'm curious. I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of dreams.

1:20:02Lewis Howes:I think when we doubt ourselves, we're not breathing correctly, we're shrinking, we're not taking any actions, we don't have the courage because we're just constantly in self-doubt. Do you think we can ever have too much self-belief?

1:20:19That's a tricky question. First, I think what you call self-doubt, I think of as personal powerlessness. And what happens is that it activates what we call the behavioral inhibition system. So it leads us to be more pessimistic, to be more fearful, to think more narrowly, less creatively, to not take risks, to see people as predators, right? It inhibits us in every way. Even physically, like we can tolerate less pain when the inhibition system is activated. Interesting, really. Feeling personally powerful activates the behavioral approach system, which does all the opposites. It's like instead of seeing a challenge as a threat, we see it as an opportunity.

1:21:03Interesting. Instead of seeing other people as potential predators, we see them as potential allies and collaborators you know we feel optimistic instead of pessimistic now you could you can get to the point of feeling too powerful and you know in that case i think that one of the things that that what we know that one of the things that happens is that people they're they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives so they're not as good at perspective taking when they become really, like when, and this is a lot about social power. So when people have both social power and personal power, they're not as good at taking

1:21:43Lewis Howes:other people's perspectives because their feedback or their information or their ideas, or understanding what other people are like. So it's, it's honestly, it's really more about social power as people gain social power. They're less dependent on others. And so that when you're, when you have not much social power, when you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, you really need to be able to read other people's minds. Like you really need to understand what they're thinking because you're dependent on them. And as you gain more power, you're less dependent. And so you're more likely to stereotype people.

1:22:16You're more, you're less likely to be able to take their perspective. You just kind of forget what it feels like to be where they are. And so I think that's, that's a problem yeah um you know i think you know there's a lot of research on overconfidence versus confidence and overconfidence is um i don't even really fully understand like where it comes from and i don't i i to me i don't think it is overconfidence i think it's a different thing altogether it's like ego yes or like arrogance you know it's an overconfidence arrogance is often coming from a place of feeling threatened and defensive and it's a smoke screen for insecurity right so yeah i say it's a smoke screen for insecurity and it's a it's a way of deflecting it's a way of preventing people from challenging you because because honestly they don't find you pleasant they don't challenge you because they don't like you, not because they believe you, right?

1:23:20So I always say confidence, not arrogance. Confidence allows room to be wrong. So you can hear people. When you're confident, self-affirmed, you know who you are, you're able to hear feedback. You don't feel like you have to steal the microphone all the time.

1:23:39Lewis Howes:Yeah, confidence plus curiosity. It's like being willing to be, okay, I feel confident, but I also have a beginner's mind. Totally. And if you're confident and you're excited about an idea, you should want that to be as good as it can be. And so, you know, if you're around people who are offering you good feedback, confidence allows you to hear the feedback, which I think is really interesting. Like, so I love watching Shark Tank. Yeah, it's great. I love reading the body language. Jonah, my son and I used to watch this like when he was younger. He loves reading the body language and guessing who's going to do well.

1:24:11And I know you've talked to people about like the body language of lying. and it is so fascinating. I think like this body language of arrogance is really -

1:24:22Lewis Howes:You can read it, you can feel it. Yeah, and it's also, you know, body language is also nonverbal vocal cues, like a certain way of speaking. But it's like, it's when they don't buy what they're selling. If you don't buy what you're selling, nobody's gonna buy what you're selling. You know, if you don't believe your story, nobody's gonna believe your story. Not at least in the long run. How do you learn to buy what you're selling? Well, first of all, when people say, well, how do I sell something that I don't believe in? I say, don't. Don't sell it. You shouldn't be doing it. Go find a different vision.

1:24:55Right? I mean, you can drive, but I don't think you should. You need to check in with yourself about that. Like, you know, the whole, like, for, okay, there are different reasons why we don't buy what we're selling. You could not buy what you're selling because you're actually self-doubt. You doubt your ability to sell anything.

1:25:13Lewis Howes:Okay. Right? And that's different. Than the product or the vision you have. Right. Or it's just not interesting to you. It's not something that you would use. But it's not that you think there's anything wrong with it. So there are a number of reasons that you can fix, right? You can learn to understand, well, this product, you know, really is helpful and valuable to these other people. And I need to understand their perspective, right? That makes you a more effective, you know, salesperson. but there are also reasons that should lead you to go i shouldn't be selling it right so you need to figure out like is it because i don't i don't relate to it or i don't believe in myself or is it because there's something wrong with this thing who are the people on shark tank that you see after their one or two minute pitch where you're like they're gonna get someone interested you know if the numbers line up and everything works out just based on their body language their belief what do they have in common where you're like yes i would invest in them there is well or i like them you know okay there are three kind of characteristics the one the first is that they believe they just you feel that they believe their story that they just so deeply buy what they're selling they really care about this yes and it's with their body language sometimes they say it and i'm not sure that helps when they like say like i mean and i i don't think they're necessarily lying when they say it saying it isn't like it's you can just feel it they convey it with their body language their energy their postural feedback everything right there there's also um they're confident and not arrogant and so they are open to feedback they're not like this is the greatest thing in the world completely like the arrogance is just it just it kills the it kills the whole the all the energy.

1:27:01Why would a shark want to invest if you're clearly not open to feedback? If you think you have all the answers and if you start conveying that right away, you're out.

1:27:10Lewis Howes:Yeah. Why are you here in the first place? Right. So you have to buy what you're selling and convey that. You have to be confident and not arrogant. And that is, like I said, you show your confidence through your openness, your willingness to be open. It's not insecurity. It's not like, oh, I mean, if you don't know the numbers, you're out. You do need to know the numbers. You need to know certain things. But you can't know everything. That's why you're there. Right. Because you need support. Totally. And the last thing is that their verbal and nonverbal language is synchronized. So what they're conveying with their words, the feelings they're conveying with their words match the feelings they're conveying with their body language.

1:27:53And if you see somebody trying to you know demonstrate like deep care in an issue but their body language just doesn't line up with

1:28:05Lewis Howes:it they're crossing their arms yeah exactly or whatever yeah yeah or or um or if they're trying to convey um i don't know like you know confidence but they're showing fear that when we when we are you know fully present and just you know in in it that stuff becomes synchronized we're not scripting our body language we're bad at scripting our body language we're best at scripting our words second best at scripting our facial expressions ish but below the neck we forget about it all like i you know like people don't know what to do with their hands for example right there's like i don't know what there used to there was a 30 rock episode about this yes about not knowing what it's like he's like in i can't remember i just remember there were so many yeah there was a whole episode about not being able, not knowing what to do with your hands.

1:28:56And people really don't pay attention to what they're doing with their feet and their legs. How important is body

1:29:02Lewis Howes:language with the feet and the hands when building trust and confidence with others? It's funny. Have you ever had Joe Navarro on? No. Do you know who he is? Former FBI agent. I want to have him on, yes. You should. He's great. He's such a character. I love Joe. He's many body language books, but one of them is called What Every Body is Saying, which I love. Great. It's clever. And, you know, he really gets into the nitty gritty, but he says one of the things as an FBI agent, I think he did like counterintelligence, was to pay attention to people's feet. Like, so if they, if you're questioning, and I'm not saying that this is, and I don't know what the, what the actual stats but that like if somebody looks like if their feet are turned away from you and they like they want to run he's paying attention to that so he like if they're but it's more if their feet are turned toward you and they don't seem afraid he's more likely to believe them right like if they if they right right if but if that's the asynchrony hey i'm here i'm fine Right, exactly.

1:30:13And their feet are... So yeah, he thinks the feet are really important.

1:30:17Lewis Howes:More than the hands? Well, only because people are so unaware of what they're doing with their feet. So it's not that necessarily... You can hide your hands, you can put them in your pocket. Yeah, exactly. They're just not thinking at all that my feet are going to give me away, which is kind of interesting. um but yeah he but also i think there's really a lot of evidence that that you know that feet you being grounded is is really important to how you feel right so like you know walking around if you're speaking or something on i know this is like i'm kind of switching a bit here but feet can really help you feel better you know not like sometimes people will stand with their ankles crossed or not totally balanced like make sure that your feet you feel that you're grounded and you feel that string right i have a friend uh named rachel kossar who used to be a professional ballet dancer and a rhythmic gymnast and she does body language training now and she's really into the that feeling of being grounded and how much that helps you like yes you're connected to the ceiling but you're also safe you're you're connected to the floor right like you're not going to fall through it there's no trap door you know allow yourself to find energy in that feeling grounded it's fascinating how how many psychologists talk about body language the power of body language to just improve the quality of your life i know jordan peterson i think in his book 12 rules for life i think one of the first rules is sit up straight yeah put your back straight put your back up straight it's like the rule of life that's the whole just put your shoulders back you're right right it's just like the funny thing about that you'll have more opportunities.

1:32:00Lewis Howes:People will like you more. It's like, yeah. I think that like the, the, the, the funny thing about sit up straight is that, you know, a lot of us heard it as kids from grandparents, but also I think part of it was because we were told to do it out of, to show respect to others. And, and the thing is, it's actually more about showing respect to yourself. Like be suffered. You like that one? It's good. Sit up straight to respect yourself. And if you respect yourself, you're more likely to be able to respect others. You know, you have to feel good about yourself to be able to treat others with sort of generosity and respect.

1:32:41That's true. So I think if we tell kids, well, you know, if you sit up straight, you know, you're going to feel better about yourself. They're more likely to be open to that.

1:32:51Lewis Howes:You're going to feel more confident. You're going to love yourself more. You're going to feel happier. You're going to have more to offer others as well. Right. When you respect yourself, like you said, you're going to have more generosity, hopefully. Right. Or more cool. So the whole like sit up straight, you're being rude. If you don't sit up straight, you know, kids are like, well, then I'm just going to be rude. It's so funny because, you know, our parents' story of make your bed in the morning, you know, was something that I never did. Until I actually went to a boarding school that was kind of similar.

1:33:22Lewis Howes:They graded you every morning in the dorm to make the bed. Is that like a military school? It wasn't military, but it was like just a strict kind of boarding school with rules and, you know, dress code and all that stuff. And I remember just like after that, when I went to college, I was like, I'm just going to, you know, wake up and let the bed be messy. Yeah. And then when I got to, I think it was like in my late 20s, I was like, I just don't feel good when I come back and look at a messy space. Let me try this out. Let me just start making my bed every morning and just spending two minutes, even though it's kind of a hassle.

1:33:52Lewis Howes:Like, let me do this so I can come back and just feel a peace in my resting space. Yeah. Not messy. Yeah. And I'm like, I wish I would have wrote the book, Make Your Bed, because that came out like five years later and became like this massive speech and phenomenon. I know. I know. What our moms told us growing up, you know, for me, I was like, this has got to be a routine. Every time I don't make the bed, I feel like I have a sloppier day. Yeah. I feel less productive. I feel less proud because I disrespected my sleeping space. Yes. Those little routines like that really help. I mean, that's the whole thing about being sort of neat is that it's self-respecting, right?

1:34:31And I mean, it also, I know there's, yes, it clears your mind, right, to not have to worry about clutter. But I think the self-respect piece is a big part of it. Although for me, I was like an OCD bed maker as a kid.

1:34:45Lewis Howes:Oh, so you were like. It wasn't good. Like people couldn't sit, if somebody sat on it, I'd be like, yeah, it was weird. I had, you know, a lot of kids can go through OCD periods and not have it as an adult, but I definitely had some weird stuff like that. You still have it as an adult? No. Okay. You can hug people and you can be messy. Sadly, I don't with the bed naked. Yeah. Now you're a messy bed, yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny because to me, you know, being a grownup is about having freedom, you know. You know, I want to do what I want to do now. Well, you know, it's like I have a lot of flexibility right now.

1:35:18And my son called me the day. It's like 10 o 'clock. And he's like, are you still in bed? And I'm like, yep. And he's like, why? And I'm like, because I'm a grown up. And I'm allowed to be.

1:35:29Lewis Howes:I can do what I want. Exactly. So funny. Yeah, I love that. I mean, it's more of like just what are the routines that are going to help you be optimized for that day and that season of life? There's certainly months where I'm like, okay, I'm just going to sleep in and I'm not going to do what I want to, you know, what I know I could do to be optimal performance. That's the season what I need right now, rest, recovery season. So it's being okay with that as well, not being so militant like every moment. I think that's not helpful either. You're too obsessed. No, for sure. Absolutely. You've got to hit every routine all the time and every minute.

1:36:03Lewis Howes:Yep, absolutely. Wake up in the same, you know, that's a lot. They have to be your routines that work for you. I was talking to a friend of mine who was an Olympic skier and a national champion in women's downhill. Lindsay Vaughn? No, but her name is Alex Bubbles. And she's a fascinating person because she also, she had a second wave of fame. I mean, she was pre-downhill skiing, getting a lot of attention, right? So that was like 98 to 2002 was like her era. Her maiden name was Schaefer. So anyway, but her married name is Alex Bubbles. And she became famous again about five years ago because she is now an emergency room nurse.

1:36:53And she was working at a hospital in Utah, the University of Utah. And there was a car accident. There was a patient. She specialized in burn victims. He was badly burned. He was unconscious. and a police officer wanted a blood sample from him to see if he had alcohol in his system. By the way, it turned out he did not and it was the other person who was drunk, but really not the point. The point was that you cannot take a blood sample unless you have a warrant or verbal permission. And he - He was unconscious. Right, so he couldn't give verbal permission and they did not have the authority to do it.

1:37:38And she was defending this man and nobody else really was. I mean, they were kind of being bystanders and she was doing exactly by the books what she was supposed to be doing. Her voice is shaking. She's clearly really scared and not getting support. It's on video or something? Yeah, sorry, it's all on video. and this police officer eventually um he's just this is this is not a statement about police officers this is just an agitated guy okay and who was just like i'm gonna get this blood sample right he throws her against the wall and handcuffs her and throws her into his cruiser and arrests her and she's screaming it's like 90 degrees outside the way it's it's a it's a really upsetting scene.

1:38:28And she absolutely did the right thing. So she became, you know, known as people as a super brave person and who she is. And I knew I wanted to interview her for my next book. And, but I didn't know her. I'm giving a talk at the Association of Critical Care Nurses. It's like 10 ,000 people. It was, it happened to be in Boston. And I did, I think the longest book signing line in my life um nurses really relate to this material i think great anatomy it's been on there five times i think that like there's a lot of power stuff going on in health care it's tough and they're exhausted and anyway i did the signing line and there's one and i i was really tired i i loved signing lines i love talking to people but i was like exhausted It was, it was a few hours.

1:39:21And I, I, um, there was one last person and, and she was with a man and the man walks over and as she approaches, I see who it is. And he says, um, I don't know if you know who this is.

1:39:35Lewis Howes:And I just like, she's crying. Like I knew exactly who it was. We embraced, I mean, we just like held on to each other. And she's like, you mean so much to me. Like you've helped, your work has helped me so much. And I'm like, I am such, you know, I'm such a fan of you. And I wanted to reach out to you. Anyway, it was Alex Bubbles. I did not know at the time that she is, she was an incredibly good skier, you know, and national champion many times. And I love skiing. Yes. Anyway. Oh, that's great. What's interesting is that she's a physically brave and socially brave person. To ski like that, also she's like the nicest person on earth.

1:40:19She would give us ski lessons and be like, well, what do you want to achieve today? Just for fun. And my husband wanted to be able to get his hips on the ground. And she's like, we're going to make that happen. And by the end of the day, she's cheering for you. She's a great person. But I said, what are the similarities, you know, going down the mountain, you know, 70 miles per hour and being brave in that situation? And she said for her, it's about like following her own kind of rule book. She said the best skiers are not skiers who have like a one size, like take a one size fits all approach.

1:40:57like you know um you know lindsey vaughn you know she she likes fashion she likes style and people were really critical of that and and it's like she's got to be able to be who she is to be the best at what she does like why are you bothered that she likes to wear makeup and and you know have nice clothing why why does that bother people the more she was able to be who she was the better skier she was. And Alex said it was the same for her. The more she was able to do it her way. And, and she had a coach who recognized that like she could not, she needed an off day before, before, um, races. And he, he was like, okay, I'm not going to force you to rate.

1:41:42Like I realized that for you, you're going to perform better if you can do it that way. The bravery thing, there is there's this this she said for me in that moment i knew that like i could not live with myself if i did not like this was just the right thing to do yes and and i had no she said there was no question that i was going to do this and and she said i was following my rule book she said to me that's what's important i knew that that justice was important justice in this sense of protecting this man's sort of freedom and his rights. And she said, I just knew that. And I knew when I was skiing that I had to do it my way.

1:42:25And that allowed me to be brave and perform at my best. So I think that that's really important. You've got to figure out what are your, again, it's back to what are your values? And how can you be true to them? But she's just, yeah, she's pretty wonderful. Wonderful.

1:42:41Lewis Howes:I feel like I could talk to you for another few hours. I know. But I want to bring us home here. And we're going to have you back on when the book comes out. God, I do that. And have you on for another long session where we're both recovered from surgery. I know. We're on. For sure. I feel like actually the pain has been going away throughout this. Good. I feel like earlier in the day the pain was tightening. but with you, I feel like I've just been so excited about learning this, that this information has been so powerful. I've got so many notes here. Oh, good. So I'm just excited to go back through all this stuff.

1:43:15This is a, before I ask the final couple of questions,

1:43:19Lewis Howes:again, I want to thank you, Amy, for being here. This is really inspiring. Thanks for making this work. I've heard so many great things about you from all mutual friends over the years. I'm glad we were going to make this work. How can we, before I ask the final questions, how can we be of support to you right now? What's the thing that we can do to, is there somewhere we can go on your social media? Are you most active on your website? Can we opt in for your newsletter? Can we get your books? Is there speaking to what you're doing? What can we do? Follow me on social media. I'm on LinkedIn for sure.

1:43:50Lewis Howes:Is that your main place? It's funny. I have the most followers on LinkedIn and I don't post that often because I want to post like really good, like sort of longer, high quality content on there. Twitter, Instagram, you know, keep up with me on social media. Amy Cuddy everywhere. And yeah. And, you know, like for me, it's just like sort of be brave. Like that, that would make me really happy. And it's okay if you say like, you know, tag me when you do it. Like I want to, I want to see it happening. But, you know, when you see, for example, somebody being like bullied on social media, The way to handle that is not to attack the person attacking them.

1:44:33It's say something nice about them in the comments. Like support them. It could be totally unrelated. Just say, you know, say you see something, somebody being, you know, trolled or whatever, and there's a pile on because that looks like the norm. So more and more people are doing it. Change the norm by being nice. Say, hey, so-and-so, you know, I really like that thing you shared last week, and this is how it helps me. And it's amazing. What you'll see is more and more people will start being positive. That's a way of being brave. Like be the one to make the first positive comment to turn things around.

1:45:10Lewis Howes:I love that. That would make me feel supported. Okay, cool. Yeah, so if you're on Instagram, make sure to share this and tag Amy. Again, Amy, Patty over on Instagram, tagger that you're watching this or listening to this over on YouTube. Leave a comment below. Leave something positive about this. the thing that you enjoy the most about this over on YouTube as well. Okay, there's a question that I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three truths question. Okay. So it's a hypothetical question. All right. Imagine many years away, it's your last day on this earth. You've lived as long as you want to live, and you accomplished all the dreams, and you have the life you want.

1:45:50Lewis Howes:But for whatever reason, everything you've ever created, your written word, this video, content, has to go somewhere else. It's not on this earth anymore. Okay. So it goes when you go. All right. Hypothetical. And the only thing you have to leave behind are three truths, three lessons that you learned that you would share with the world. What would you say would be those three truths for you? Oh, my gosh. Yes. Off the cuff. Oh, my gosh. It's really hard. The whole haters going to hate philosophy, like the idea that people are just, there are just bad people and, and people are just going to be bad.

1:46:28Don't buy into that. It's just keep trying that the, the, the only thing that makes that absolutely true is if we believe it's absolutely true, you know, so keep trying to be, to, to be a better person, to model better behavior, to be optimistic about people, to, to, to, to have grace. That's the, I think that's the most important one. Okay.

1:46:50Lewis Howes:That's number one. The second is, you know, you know, I'm going to quote Maya Angelou, stand up straight and realize who you are, that you tower over your circumstances. So that is, again, Maya Angelou, not me, but I love what it captures, which is carry yourself with a sense of pride and, you know, and, and, and self-respect and you will become more self-respecting and you will treat others better yes that's the second um the third i think is like we just leave room for people to um to be weird like you know what let people let their freak flags fly like don't put people in a box let people be different like appreciate it just just stop judging like do your thing let your freak flag fly and let other people do the same thing.

1:47:46Like if they're being, if they're not hurting other people, you know, I just, I like give people space to be themselves.

1:47:52Lewis Howes:Absolutely. That's it. Those are powerful. I love those truths. Um, before I ask the final question, Amy, I want to acknowledge you for all that you've done, all the research, all the work, all the giving back to serve people and helping them gain confidence. Thank you. And improve the quality of their life. That's what my mission is with the school of greatness is to help people improve the quality of their life. And it's to bring people on like yourself that I've been inspired by for a long time to teach what you know. You have this information, this knowledge from deep research, practical experience and teaching it to so many people that this audience could really use.

1:48:31Lewis Howes:So I'm grateful for your consistent dedication. I'm grateful for you being weird and starting to express that more on social media in the world and accepting that socially by posting the stuff that is unique to you, the things that you love and reminding us that we need to continue to be unique to ourselves as well and be willing to share that. And acknowledge you for the generosity you have with so many people. Again, I have so many mutual friends that say you're an incredible giver, incredible, kind human being. Thank you. So I really acknowledge you for the impact you've made on my friends.

1:49:06Thanks. And the person you've become.

1:49:09Lewis Howes:So hopefully we can be friends after this and have you back on many times. And I want to see you continue to spread this message far and wide. Thank you so much. What a pleasure. Yeah, of course. Final question is what's your definition of greatness? I think greatness is, I think people might think of it as sort of about being the most, sort of the best, the most competent. I think it's a combination of being, yes, your most sort of effective self, but also your most generous self. So greatness has to combine those two qualities, right? It's about being both generous and capable. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week.

1:49:58Lewis Howes:And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

1:50:43Lewis Howes:Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

1:51:37We'll be right back.

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