#256 Tucker Carlson - Epstein’s Emails, Political Blackmail and What We Already Knew All Along

26:10And every single time, I'm like, I can't. This is shocking. It's like, really? I guess I didn't really believe anything I said because there's nothing shocking about it. It's the most predictable. I remember going on Fox and writing the script and something I can't even remember. It could be anything. But I was like, it's kind of weird that all the people who lied are getting Presidential Medals of Freedom and consulting contracts at BlackRock, and all the people who told the truth are headed to jail. We're punishing the honest. I remember being like totally out. I mean, this was like 10 years ago I said this.

26:46And yet every single time I've seen it in the subsequent decade, I've been every bit as shocked. And I just think, no, it's time to acknowledge what's totally real. Charlie Kirk got murdered. No one was more shocked than I was. He and I had just talked about the possibility of me getting murdered. Oh, I'm not worried about that. I said, and then he gets murdered. And I was so shocked and, of course, upset. Upset because of him specifically dying, but shocked that someone could get killed who didn't do anything wrong. He just told the truth. And he was increasingly telling more of the truth, which is exactly why he was murdered, obviously.

27:23But I remember being shocked by that. I was like, no, no, no. And I talked to our staff about it, and we've had some real drama in our lives. We were totally shocked by it. And similar, you know, people trying to kill you. And I remember finally concluding and saying to them, and they agreed, it's like, what did you think this was? That's what this is. That's what our lives are. That's what everyone's life is. And we've gotten to the point where you can't opt out. You can't just say, I'm going to my fishing camp with the spaniels. I tried. There is no opting out. and anyway and people can reach different conclusions about what their role is and I think everyone has a different role not everyone has the same role at all not everyone has the same destiny or mission but we're all gonna have to face that choice because it's not up to us that's the nature of life so I'm never I don't care what happens I am resolving I'm not going to be shocked by it.

28:29And the extent to which you're shocked is the extent to which you didn't really believe what you were saying before. And now, finally, after all these years at 56, I really believe that what we're seeing is what we always thought we would see. Does that make sense? It does. It does make sense. You can't shirk it. You've been in it for a lot longer. You've been in it for a long time. You've been close. Yeah, but I didn't see it. I mean, and I've been so attacked. Like, how could you have not known that this person was doing this? Or my own family, even especially. You're lying. It's like, I don't know what to tell you.

29:06The human mind is amazing. The number of things. I mean, I've smoked a lot of cigarettes and thought to myself, this is bad for you. That's bullshit. It's like, oh, whatever, you know? And, like, we have the capacity for self-deception that really is without parallel. Like, it's incredible what we can ignore. And I've done my share, for sure. But, and I'm not being defensive about it. I just think that's how people are. It's certainly how I am. I'm very good at lying to myself. But especially about people I like and about myself. And, you know, we're just good at deceiving ourselves. But once I'd be...

29:43It's only been in the last 10 years, I was like, wow, I can't believe that all this stuff was... I can't believe that all this stuff was going on. And then I'm transitioning into the next phase, which is, it's okay. We were promised this. We're getting it. I'm so grateful, really, to be living in a time where I think there's less self-deception. I think people are being forced to acknowledge, not hysterical, but being forced to think about, you know, like, why am I here? And what is this? And what do I care about? What do I actually believe as distinct from what I profess? They're not the same.

30:16And I think there's, like, amazing clarity. And there's, of course, a great sorting going on, which you and I have talked about off-camera for sure, or maybe on camera, but the beauty of, you know, you lose so many friends. I've lost, you know, most of my friends. But the ones I've kept are real friends, and they're just people I respect immensely. And then I've made all these new relationships. Like, I pride myself in having no new friendships. Like, I have no new friendships, you know? I married my high school girlfriend. Like, I'm very much old school that way, the most. But it's also true that in the past five or ten years, I've met all these people I trust, care about, listen to, whose opinions I really listen to and that affect me.

30:57I allow their opinions to affect me, which is the sign of real friendship. You know, I let you critique me and I'll hear it. And I have a bunch of people I feel that way about. How great is that? So I lost a lot of, you know, acquaintanceships, and I gained some real friendships. How's that not a massive win? It is a massive win. That's awesome. Do you feel that?

31:27No. You will. I think you will. Your problem is you're... this is so fast. I'm extremely guarded. I've been fucked over a lot. Yep. I've been lied to a lot. And it's really, really, really fucking hard to gain my trust. I get it. I get it. I get it. But the trajectory of your life has been so radical and abrupt. Like, go from, you know, the height of one world, you know, like military, you got to the hype, obviously, the most famous part of the military, succeed in that. And then you completely change careers. Like, it couldn't be more different from what you did before. And then out of nowhere, you become really successful in that.

32:04So that's like, that's a big, very abrupt change. And I, no matter how resilient you are, there are going to be some bumps on that road because that's just, it's just too different. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, if I became, like, a super successful business guy or figure skater tomorrow, that would kind of be like, you know what I mean? Like, all of a sudden, I'm competing in the Olympics for figure skating, and I win the gold medal. Like, that would be very hard for me. Oh, shit. I would actually love to see that. We might have to create an AI video of you figure skating. In the comedy division, but yeah.

32:46But that is kind of like your life. Mm-hmm. Well, you can't see it clearly because you're living it, but from the outside, it's obvious. Like, what? You actually succeeded in this new business? What are the odds of that? I don't know. Slim to none? And more closer to none, I would say. Yeah. We track sleep, fine-tune our macros, and try to chase every biohack. But real performance starts deep, at the cellular level. Armora Colostrum is nature's original superfood. Colostrum is packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that help fortify gut health, help strengthen immune health, help fuel performance, and more.

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34:43We'll be right back.

35:26you know what really bothers me is just before i dug into this it's like there's some things that are fucked up we're gonna expose it We're going to make some changes. And then the deeper you get in and the more you look around, everything's fucked up. It's like what we were talking about on your show. Everything is a lie. And I mean, we manufacture fake fucking heroes in the military that even I believed went through what they said went through. You know what I mean? And it's only to find out if like 20 fucking years later, like, holy shit, this entire fucking story is a lie. This is a fucking lie.

36:12And that motherfucker is running around in a, I mean, I can't even imagine the prison that people live in, living a lot, like, everything that you're known for is a fucking lie. Everything that people come up to you for and praise you about is a fucking lie. Your awards are lies. Everything is a fucking lie you are you are a and this is a lot there's a lot of these people walking around and i just know a handful of them and then you look at the politics and you look i mean look at look at this shit the epstein files it's a hoax it's a hoax it's a national security threat they're fake this is like what the fuck man the american people are fucking screaming at you screaming that they want this shit released.

37:03Congress, I don't even know the name. What is it? I can't remember. How many people are in Congress? 400 and... 535 Senate plus House. 435 in the House. Everybody except one person. Yep. I don't know. Who is the one person? Some guy. Yeah. But... And so, like, back to earlier, like, we want to make an impact. We want to tell the truth. We want to, you know, do these. and we had a big influence in the last election. Was that was seemed like a great matter at a time at the time. It felt great. Did it. Was that a good thing? You know, you can't. Now we got a guy who's all America first, all this other fucking bullshit.

37:51And and everybody, everybody is screaming, release these fucking files. We want to know what is going on. We want to know. What would we find out if they were all released? Anything we didn't know? Honestly, I have no idea. Is it the end of the fucking country? Like, is it really that bad? C.S. Lewis has this... Well, I have tons of opinions on the subject. I don't have, you know, concrete proof. Of course, I think I know, but C.S. Lewis has this... I think it was C.S. Lewis has this essay in which he says, People debate, you know, was Jesus really God or whatever. If Jesus came back to Earth tomorrow and held a press conference, like a week later, people would be talking about something else.

38:38It's like, we actually know what's true. We know what's true. And the way that dogs know what's true, you can't reason with a dog. The dog can smell it. And he sticks with his opinion because he has no other input. If you hate a dog, you can't talk your way out of it. the dog knows you hate the dog because dogs have unerring instincts, and so do we. And so, of course, we know exactly what the Epstein story is about. It's about the deep corruption of global leadership, of course. And you can say it's about Israel. It's about the CIA. Well, it's about, is there a distinction really? Not just between Israel and, you know, Mossad and CIA, but about the British government or really kind of any government or any, you know, Bill Gates It's all kind of varieties of the same thing.

39:25It's corrupt leadership that is acting on its own behalf against the interests of the people they lead. It's the oldest story there is. It's the Pharisees. And if we're honest, we already know that. So, I mean, I, of course, I'm completely for disclosure of everything. But I don't lie to myself and say that disclosure would change human nature because it won't. And people have an opportunity to exploit others generally well. and the rest of us need to fight daily against that, not because we're going to win in the short term, but because it is our duty and to serve what's good and true, period, even if we're killed doing it.

40:04So I don't know. I mean, I won't stop pushing for disclosure. I really believe that. Trust is built on honesty. It's not built on lies, ever. You know, you say, you know, does it change? I can't remember your exact verbiage, which we were talking about, when this gets exposed, does it change anything? No, this is the nature of man. This is what happens. But - Where do you know the answer? Men need to be reset. And men have not been fucking reset, not in this country, for a long, long time. That's coming whether we want it or not. We don't want it, but it's coming. All this shit about women don't need men.

40:41You've obviously seen chaos in a society, right? Actual chaos. People just shoot into buildings and no one arrests them. You spent your life around that stuff. Those societies don't ask questions like, what are men for? You know what I mean? Right. And we're, of course, moving closer to that. And all of this, all of our silliest manifestations, you know, the trans craziness or feminism or other just revolts against nature are only possible because we live in this nerf world of affluence. But as that starts to change, and it is changing, then the upside of that, we're going to get poorer and society will become more dangerous, but we'll also be a little more rooted in reality.

41:21In the same way that rich people are insufferable, not all, but a lot of rich people are insufferable because they're detached from reality, from nature, from God, from the things that are real. And they convince themselves, because they can fly from point to point without going through TSA, that they have infinite power and they don't. And that's why they're so hard to have dinner with. But a normal society doesn't have these problems. It has all kinds of other problems, but doesn't have the American problems of like, you know, I'll just, you know, I'm a 40-year-old unmarried Citibank executive.

41:56I'll just get a surrogate. It's like, okay. For the suicide rate. There's not a lot of suicide in, you know, impoverished countries. Because, like, the mission is really clear. Eat. You know, there's not a lot of crisis of meaning in Burundi. You know what I mean? It's a fight for the day. Yeah, it's a fight for the day. Well, it's a trade-off. I mean, I would much rather live in a door-to-ash society because I like comfort and ease and everything, but it is a trade-off, and you trade comfort for meaning. That's just kind of what we've done, and again, we shouldn't be surprised by it.

42:33What do you think happens, honestly? Absolutely. One, do you think this is actually going to – is this going to come out? Or has it all been shredded? I mean, Mark Einstein said this is – No, of course. I mean, we don't have the JFK files. And so then you ask, like, why don't we? Who is being protected here? There are no living stakeholders in that story. There's no living participant in that murder conspiracy. It was a conspiracy. We know that. So who were the participants in that conspiracy? Well, no one's still alive, so who could we possibly be protecting by not releasing all those files? And that's a pretty short list of suspects.

43:16So I think we kind of know what that is, at least in part. I don't know the details. I know some. But I think it's pretty obvious. Same with Epstein. It's pretty clear who some of the players were. they were governments, the US government involved, British government involved, Israeli government involved at various levels. The guy lived a fairly long life. He died in his mid sixties. He was pretty active in government work, arms trading, for example, from a young age, from his late twenties, I think when he left Bear Stearns, he got into that business with Robert Maxwell. You don't trade arms by yourself.

43:53You do it on behalf of governments. And with the assistance of governments. Obviously, you've been around this, you know. So from that age, from say 30 to what, 65-ish when he died, so 35 years, he's intersecting with governments. And it's not just the Israelis. I mean, the Israelis were definitely involved. Ehud Barak is living at his house. I mean, okay. And we have a lot of his emails that prove that, but, and I'm not defending the Israeli government, which is hard to defend, but I'm just telling, trying to tell the truth, which is it's not just the Israelis. Okay. It's us. It's the British, the French.

44:29It's the usual players, the intel services that matter in the West and probably others. So that's who's being protected, of course, and then all kinds of other pawns. And so I think one of the main takeaways from that story, about which I know a lot, but not everything, is that the leaders that we believe are leaders, and people are starting to get this, like our elected officials, oh, they have so much power, senator so-and-so, president, what's his name? You know, like these are the people running our society, or not the people running our society. Of course, they themselves are subject to enormous pressures from, you know, other people and coalitions of people and forces and interests.

45:10And like, that's what they're... And the closer you get to them, the more time you spend with the people who are in charge, the more you realize they're not really in charge or they're only semi-in charge. How does it happen? I'm very... I mean, you know, how does it happen? Do they... We talked about this a little bit at Breakfast. I don't think everything is transactional as it may seem. Oh, no. I think that... This is from my own experience. And I don't believe I've fallen into any yet, but I think I have come close.

45:50I think they set traps. And that doesn't mean there's a hooker in the fucking hotel room that you walk into. Oh, there is sometimes. Oh, you know what I mean? There is sometimes. For somebody that fucking weak. You'd have to be. And stupid, by the way. And I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that are that fucking stupid. Or the porn sites. I'm going to look up tranny porn on YouPorn. Well, that's not controlled by a foreign intel service. Oh, it is. It is. That actually is true. So, yeah, I mean, there are a million ways that your weaknesses expose you to influence, for sure. I think they...

46:31They can be very giving. And it... I think they can be very giving, and it appears that you're being led into a group. And then... Oh, I'm watching that right now with someone, yes. And then you're fucking done. Of course. But not even realizing it until you're in. Oh, yes. And I think I've come close, and I always, like... If I even get a fucking inkling of that happening, I'm like, nope, I'm not going. Not getting on the jet. Stay true to that. Not going there, not going there, not doing it. Like, I'm my own fucking person, and I don't... What are you gonna give me, money? I've got that. How about when you...

47:13It's not all that's cracked up to me. You don't even know what's happening. I mean, how many plots have I been involved in unwittingly? I don't even know the answer, but a lot. A lot. I can think of a bunch of them where you have someone, like, who you work for, being like, you know, we should really take a look at this. This guy's bad. Let's, you know? Okay. You know, when I was young, living in Washington, I was used all the time and had no idea. I literally had no... It never even occurred to me. And a lot of my resentment as a middle-aged man comes from that. And I think a lot about it. And I'm not going to blame the people who did it, because that's who they are.

47:54But I definitely participated in a lot of stuff without my knowledge that was much more strategic than I ever guessed. You're sitting in a meeting, you know, we should really do this. Okay, I'll do it. And you wind up doing it. And then ultimately became inconsistent with my instincts and my conscience. And I was like, ah, this is bad. I'm not quite sure how, but then you look back and you're like, oh my gosh. And now, of course, my whole life is, you know, I don't understand anything really, but you see glimpses of a lot of different things every single day. Well, you should go here and talk to so-and-so and like, what is this exactly?

48:30And if you're busy, you don't ask yourself enough, what is this? I mean, I think that happens to me every single day because my text is public. So, everyone has my text. Everybody has my text. I have the same number for 30 years. I'm not changing it. I just refuse. I'm not afraid of people, and I'm not going to change my number. And so I get hundreds and hundreds of texts every day. Some people I know, most people I do know. And, you know, some of them are totally straightforward and people I trust, and a lot of them aren't. And sometimes I don't care what plot you're hatching. I want to do this thing because I have my own agenda, which is to shed light on something that isn't well-known enough.

49:07This is my perspective, and I'm going to do it. I don't care whether it fits into your plans or not. I'm doing it. I've done a lot of interviews, like a lot of interviews, and traveled to a lot of countries with that in mind. But yeah, there are tons of people trying to suborn you and make you part of their agenda. And mostly it's not blackmail. I've never been blackmailed in my life. No one's ever suggested that. I'm not banging the hooker in my room. Sorry, I don't drink. I mean, it's kind of hard to blackmail me. I like to think it's impossible. Maybe they could find a way. But But that's not how it happens for most people.

49:41But then there's another element, which I'm thinking a lot about, which I don't really understand, but I know is real, where people fall under a kind of spell. Mm-hmm. And people you know to be rational, Mike Huckabee is one of them. We're talking about this at breakfast because I'm obsessed with it, because I know Mike Huckabee so well. I was at the newspaper in Arkansas over 30 years ago, and I knew him then. I went up at Fox News with him decades later. I worked with him. I knew him then. I always liked Mike Huckabee. I like him now. Mike Huckabee is not a bad person. He's very money-oriented, which is a weakness for anybody, of course.

50:20So there's that, but that's not unusual. He's not a bad person at all. Mike Huckabee is a nice man. But Mike Huckabee has participated in things that are just objectively evil in my opinion. And how did that happen? Because Mike Huckabee woke up and decided he wanted to do something evil? No. I know Mike Huckabee. He doesn't feel that way at all. He's decent man. I watch Huckabee and because I do know him, I marvel at it. He has fallen under some sort of spell. I do think it's supernatural. I know a number of people like that. I'm calling him out by name because he's been involved in something recently that's like so shocking to me that I can't even believe he participated in something like that.

51:01You said we wouldn't be shocked anymore. Exactly, exactly. We wouldn't be shocked anymore. So everything that I have learned comes from like sitting in my sauna trying to figure out obvious things. Complex things are very easy to understand. Simple things right in front of your face are the great mysteries. And when you know people and you have a fairly good sense of their character and their... you know, what their... the kind of things they'd be willing to do, what their goals are. I think Mike Huckabee's goal is to spread the gospel of Jesus. And I think that about him. I do. I think a lot of Mike Huckabee.

51:37How could a man like that wind up doing the things that he's been doing? Not creepy personal things, nothing like that, but like promoting things that are obviously evil, like the murder of kids. How could you do that? Well, he couldn't do that. He would never do that. He's doing it because he is under some kind of spell. He has no idea he's doing it. And I just explained a time in my life where I was under a kind of spell. It never even occurred to me. I worked for Bill Kristol at the time. Bill Kristol, my editor, my boss, who gave me this job, was hilarious in meetings that he could really be working tirelessly on an agenda that was totally anti-Christian.

52:23How could that ever be? That what Bill Kristol really hates is Christianity. That never occurred to me. And he wanted to stamp out nationalism and public displays of loyalty to Jesus. He hated that. I did not get that at all. It never entered my brain one time. So I was under a spell myself. So I'm not even judging. I'm just saying people fall into this way of thinking that is so clear to me, influenced by supernatural forces, where they are blinded. And the entire Bible from beginning to end is the story of people who can't see things right in front of them. They just can't. It's happening right there.

53:06So all this evidence, it's overwhelming. They They can touch it, smell it, feel it, but they cannot acknowledge its reality. And so anyway, that's part of it. People are engaged in these projects that are just like totally anti-human and they think they're on the right side. They really believe it. So I would just say like the analysis of, that I read on the internet, I'll try to not read the internet, but you know, you read it and you're like, people of good faith are like, wow, that person's clearly getting a payoff You know, they've got videotape of him banging a dog or whatever they think about with these ideas.

53:43Do you know what I mean? They're compromised. And I think because I know so many of the people they're talking about, I'm like, yeah, in some kind. Lindsey Graham, like, okay, I believe that. Like, what is that? But there are a million other people who I'm like, I don't think there's videotape of them doing anything wrong. I don't think they're taking money for this. I think they really believe they're doing the right thing. And that's more upsetting to me. because it's more subtle and it's more profound than just blackmail. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And looking back on your life, I mean, it's hard for any of us to look back on our lives without feeling very complicated feelings, but do you detect any moments where, like, you were involved in something and you never even paused to ask, like, what is this?

54:30Why am I participating in this? It never even dawned on you.

54:38I mean, I just, I think... You just have to, I mean, when I started doing this, I just... There's all kinds of... I've got all kinds of incriminating shit out there. I believe it. Tons of it. You know, but I did, and I'm aware of it. And I know it was fucked up, what I did. Yeah. But, you know, I'm not, um... But did you know it at the time? Reconciliation. Yeah, I knew it was fucked up at the time. Not all of it, but yeah, the majority of it. Like, I mean, it didn't... I didn't fall into any honeypots. I didn't need a honeypot. That's the point. That's too obvious. That's too obvious. So you're never gonna get you with the Russian hooker because everyone's on guard against the Russian hooker.

55:27They didn't need to do anything to get me to fall into anything, because I was already doing it all. and there's this thing you know called uh reconciliation confession whatever you want to call it you know you come clean and in in you you fucking own it you know jaco calls it extreme ownership right but i mean it's just it's taking ownership of your fuck ups and like you cannot be afraid of that and there's i don't i tend to think that people are very forgiving and so i don't know you know when we talk about shit like the epstein and all of this stuff right like when we talk about all of these things and all of the blackmail and stuff, it's like, just come clean, man.

56:07Just... I've made this argument a million times. Everyone wants to believe in our institutions. I certainly feel that way, as disappointed and angry as I am about the failure of every institution. I really want to believe in the institutions. You know, I really, really do. I mean that. And all it takes to restore a relationship with a person or an institution is honesty and repentance. That's it. It's not hard. People are so forgiving. I totally agree with that. All of us want to forgive. There's nothing better than the prodigal son. Like, he's gone. Fuck that guy. He took all the money and left.

56:39He's in war houses in Babylon, and then... But now he's here. It's all forgiven. We're so excited for you. We're throwing a huge party for you. All of us feel that way. And so I don't think it's hard. Or it's hard, but it's not complicated. And it's so worth it to say, I was completely wrong. I'll be wrong again. I'm going to try my best. Maybe sometimes I won't try my best, but just be honest. I think that's liberation. That's the only liberation, actually. It's freeing. I mean... Yeah, what other liberation is there?

57:20I just...

57:25Does voting matter anymore? I don't know. This, I'm just... I don't know whether voting matters... This confused me so much. Like, looking back, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I mean, we didn't really have much of a fucking option here, but I mean, we slow we thought.

57:47but nothing I voted for happened.

57:55What about you? Are you happy with anything? Oh, I'm happy with so much. It's going on. Of course not. No, it's just a nightmare of depravity and corruption in general in the world, but what did you expect? I am so struck by... You know, I'm not a TV watch, but there's the only really famous Seinfeld episode is Opposite Day. You're probably in the jungle or doing something bad somewhere. You missed this. But there's this famous episode of the sitcom Seinfeld where one of the characters decides to do everything the opposite that day and gets like results he didn't expect. It works. And I just feel like that is the lesson of everything.

58:38That's the lesson of life. That's the Beatitudes. The first will be last. The meek shall inherit the earth. What's that? It's the opposite of what you think. Jesus says, I'm going to build my church on this rock. Peter, who's just betrayed him three times to a girl. Rock? That's like jello. It's the opposite. You're going to build a church. You build it on the strongest man. He builds it on the weakest man. And everything in our life points to the same truth. It's the opposite of what you expect every freaking time. And so again, back to the same theme, no, I'm not shocked, but

59:17it really makes me happy to know the only thing that matters is the words you speak and that they're true. That's the only thing that changes history ever. You think about the number of wars, some of which you've participated in directly over the past 25 years, how many have like made things better or changed anything. I'm not really doing the math at zero. How many wars actually do it's the biggest war in human history, 1914 to 1918? Set the stage for the even bigger war in history. So it's like, but what does make things better? Telling the truth. In the end, when everything is gone, when your civilization has been leveled, and archeologists are trying to piece together what it was all about, the only things that remain are the words that you spoke.

1:00:05And they're the things that change people. And this is like an ancient concept. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Ancient cultures understood that an idea articulated emerges from the mouth of the speaker and becomes a separate living thing and lives there forever. And anyone who's argued with his wife knows that that's true. The second you say something harsh, especially if it's true, it can't be taken back and it hangs there in the kitchen over you, overshadowing everything. So, and, or this last argument I'll make, the way to, the way that I understand the world is in reverse, almost like an x-ray.

1:00:47So I look at the people who I don't respect, who I believe have totalitarian impulses and I try to assess what's true by what their priorities are. So your enemies are the people who want to control you and crush you and destroy your family and your nation, obviously. What do they want above all? They want to control what you say. They want to control what you say. What's the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights, It's the freedom of speech. What you say matters more than anything. Your words articulated out loud are living things, and they're more powerful than you are, and they live beyond you.

1:01:29Your grave will go unvisited. Your words will continue to reverberate through the universe. I really believe that. I know that that's true, and that's the whole story of history. There are no living ancient Hebrews. We know a lot about what they thought because they wrote it down. Their words have lived for 3 ,000 years. So what we say is the most important thing about us. And if we can force ourselves to tell the truth, we will change things. And by things, I mean people and their attitudes, their beliefs, their hearts. And that's all we can do. That's all we can do. And I would say, if we make a little extra money on the side, we should build a fishing camp in the woods because I think that's really important.

1:02:15But it's not as important as... I mean, like, yeah, I do think that. I have all kinds of sentimental attachments. I don't really care about things that much, but I care about nature. So, like, that is important. But it's not important in an ultimate sense. My fishing camp will be a strip mall someday, you know? Or it'll be a lunar landscape someday. But your words will outlive you. I love that. I just think that's true, and no one has convinced me of that. I've been convinced of that by watching. And really, I've been convinced of it by watching what the opponents of people and of civilization really care about.

1:02:57And the number one thing they care about is getting you to shut up. As long as you'll shut up, you can have whatever you want. And that really is the trade-off that our leaders make. is not by doing things, it's by not saying certain things. And the ones who refuse to be told what to say are destroyed or face the threat of destruction. And you know exactly who they are. Now, what have they done exactly? Does anyone care what the two or three truth tellers in our political system have done, what they voted for, what they don't even know? No one cares. All they care about is what they say out loud.

1:03:35And the reason they care is because that's the most important thing. They know what's important. We don't. We're totally sidetracked by this, that, baubles and fast-moving flashy objects. But they know what's important. The spoken word is the most important. Anyway, so that makes me feel good. That makes me feel really, really good because I know what my mission is. And I feel like if you know what your mission is and you know what the stakes are and you're willing to accept them, and I should just say I'm in such an unusual position because all my kids are grown and they're all thriving and I don't have any investors or debt.

1:04:12No one can control me. I'm kind of happy with less. I'm not a money. I've never been a money person. I'm not bragging, but I never have been. Ask anyone who knows me. And so they're really, the cost to me is so much lower than to a man with like four kids in private school, you're 35 and your wife's like, well, you're barely making it. You are subject to, and I have been in earlier in my life, subject to all kinds of control mechanisms. You don't even perceive, but you're so afraid of losing what you have. And you're really afraid of it because you have children at home. And having small children at home who are totally dependent on you, who you love more than your own life, that is a really, really scary time for every man.

1:04:52And I know that you're living it now. And I've lived it. My oldest is 31 years old next week. I've lived it for 31 years, I know. But you get to a point where it's not such an imminent threat because your children have their own lives. And if you're blessed as I've been, they're doing great. You love them and you want to see your grandchildren. and there's so many things you want, but you don't need any of it. And your responsibility is gone. I'm not responsible for educating someone and telling him the facts of life at dinner. You know what I mean? It's like, that's all, I'm done. So I'm just in this incredibly privileged position where the stakes are just a lot lower for me.

1:05:32So I can see with greater clarity, what am I doing for the back nine? And I just have such a simple, simple understanding of that. Just tell the truth. Don't be moved from the truth. You don't have to tell the whole truth. You don't have to say everything. I know a lot of shit, or I think I know a lot of shit, because that's my job. And a lot of it, I'm not sure it's true, or I don't know. Don't say everything you know. You don't have to. You don't have to tell people, oh, you're fat. You don't have that. Okay, it's probably true. You don't have to say that. You're no obligation to say that. Your only obligation, don't ever lie.

1:06:09Don't allow people to make you lie. I'll die first. I'm just telling you, die first. You're not going to do that. And I think that's your duty.

1:06:23Yeah, I don't know. Throughout this journey, in kids, especially kids, it's made me really try to start honing in on things that I can actually make an impact in. Yes. You know, and like we were talking about, There are things that you can make an impact in. We have little nuggets here and there. But I don't think fucking politics is for me. And I don't think... It's not for me either. It's not for me. I don't even understand it. And I mean, you were off fighting wars. I was covering the Congress and the White House and a million elections all around the country. I've been to every state. I know all the politicians personally.

1:07:08I still don't even understand the process. And I'm not interested in it. I really am not. Some consultant called me yesterday to get me to interview someone. And he's like, oh, this is Congressional District 13. And he says, I don't even know what you're talking about. I just have so little interest in it, you know? It's not interesting. And people who are really, really interested in it are damaged, I think, in general. I don't want to generalize. But, you know, overall, not a group I want to have dinner with. Right now, America's going through a transition in the way we think about money. For years, people called Bitcoin a fad.

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1:10:35I mean, I'm super passionate about my family. My family is so big that it's like, it's literally, I could spend all day, every day, involved in family stuff. There's just so many people, and, you know, I'm the oldest male, and so it's just, you know, really involved, really very close, super close, cohesive family. Very, everyone's everyone's best friend. It's just so interesting, and you can just, like, get involved and try to help in marginal ways or whatever, or just talk to people. So I'm very interested in that. I'm interested in more hobbies than any person's ever had. Way too many. My son's like, you should take a bow hunting.

1:11:14Yeah, I don't think so. Like, I need more obsessions. I don't think so. Too many rabbit holes already in my life, but what am I interested in? My job? I mean, when you're talking about telling truth, when you're talking about, and the way I take that is exposing, you know, shining the light in the darkness. I'm interested in the elimination of white people. What do you mean by that? I mean, white people have been targeted for disappearance. And no one wants to say that because they've been bullied into not noticing or talking about it because you're like a white supremacist. Well, I'm not a white supremacist.

1:11:55I don't think whites are inherently superior to any other group. I don't judge how I feel about someone by his race. I never have, and I'm never going to. It's against my religion, and it's against my instinct. I believe in what people are like. But I travel a lot around the I'm not an expert in the world, but I know more about it than people who don't travel a lot. And I'm leaving this week again. And one thing that I have noticed, because it's impossible not to notice, is that majority white countries are becoming non-majority white. And that's a result of policies that are deliberate, that are not popular with the populations of those countries, and that people are discouraged from noticing in it.

1:12:37In some places, they're arrested, like in Great Britain, where I'm going on Friday. So it's like, what is that? And it's not happening in one or two, but in every single one. And what's so interesting is, because no one's been allowed to talk about it, the only people who talk about it are like crazy race theorists or prison inmates who are like, whatever, caught up in being white or something. By the way, you didn't choose to be white, okay? It's nothing you did. You didn't choose to have your eye color or your height. None of these things you can brag about because you didn't do them. They're an accident of your birth.

1:13:12So I've never agreed with any of that crap. But because normal people have been bullied into not noticing, the only people who ever say anything about it are people who are obsessed with it. But it is an incredible thing that every white country on the planet, except Russia, the one everyone hates, is on the road in very short order to become completely different from what it was 50 years ago. In its population, demographically different. Is that an accident? Well, of course, it's not an accident. It's the result of a bunch of different... It's a multi-pronged strategy, clearly, to make the populations of those countries hate themselves for how they were born and accept these changes.

1:14:04It's been systematic. What is that? I'm not, as I said, I'm not a white, by the way, I would just admit it at this point. Why do I care? I'm a white supremacist. Okay. I'm actually not. I disagree with that. Don't think that you should be obsessed with people's appearance, eh, or the accident of their birth or their genetics. I just am opposed to all of that. Again, for the eighth time, Paul, the chief prosecutor, murderer of Christians became the most important Christian once he met Jesus. So, if you need more examples, I don't know what they could be, that people can totally change. There's nothing to do with how you're born.

1:14:42It's what you become. And that's my deepest belief. So, if I sound defensive, it's because we have all been trained to ignore this amazing thing that's never happened before in history, where one group of people is being destroyed. And of course, have internalized that and are now enthusiastically participating in their own destruction and the death of an entire group of people. And it really is like if you go to Great Britain, it's the whites who can't wait to kill themselves. It's in Canada, same thing. They have The MAIDS program, which is state-sponsored killing of its own citizens. Physician-assisted suicide.

1:15:25No, it's the state encouraging people to kill themselves. And it's one of the leading causes of death in Canada is this MAIDS program. Is this the... Are these the machines that these... It could be machines. It's, you know, the state is licensed to kill its citizens. The citizen just goes in and said, I want to be killed, and they kill you. And basically for any reason, mental health problems, financial problems, a lot of poor people are just like, I feel like I'm a burden to the country. I want to go die and the state will kill you. It's one of the leading causes of death in Canada. So the numbers came out yesterday.

1:15:54Well, who's doing this? So Canada is about 65 % white, something like that. It's completely changed. Heavily, heavily South Asian and Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani and lots of other peoples. You know, it's massive immigration, massive, massive immigration into Canada. But who's being killed by the state in Canada? It's like 97 % legacy whites, literally. And what the hell is that? And of course, these are people who have been told and now believe that they're a burden to society. It's selfish to have children. They've been totally brainwashed into mass suicide. And of course, none of this is affecting my family.

1:16:35We have the opposite views. We're not proud to be white. We're not white because we chose to be white. We just happen to be born white. So there's nothing to be proud of. It's just a fact. On the other hand, targeting people on the basis of their race for destruction is the reason we say we hate the Nazis. And yet that's absolutely happening globally in every white country. Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, the United States, and Canada. That's an accident? It's not an accident at all. And no one will say anything about it. And why wouldn't you say something?

1:17:16By the way, if that were happening in India, we've got too many Indians here. A billion Indians? That's too many Indians. We need more Africans here. So anyone Indian, we can kill you because you're a burden. You just not have kids or take some SSRIs and just benzos and weed and just zone out until you die or whatever. But you're bad. I would be like, that's the sickest thing I've ever seen. Like, why do we hate Indians? I kind of like Indians or whatever. You would just be like, why is, why would we want to do that to them? What did they do wrong? I mean, I would just think that. And that's happening to whites globally at such a speed and no one is saying anything about it that I've decided because I just want to tell the truth about what I notice that I'm going to say something about it.

1:18:09I think I think it's totally wrong. I think it's totally evil. Again, it's exactly what we said we hated about the Nazis, and we're participating in it, and I'm gonna keep saying that no matter what they say. And they'll be like, oh, you're a white supremacist. No, I'm not. I have a lot of theories about what this is and why. What is it? Why would they do it? Who is they? Every globalist, the United Nations, the United States government, State Department, all of our politicians. The motive. Joe Biden's standing up and being like, the main problem in America is white racism from white men. Said that on tape many times.

1:18:45And I can't wait till this is a non-white majority country. What? Why would you? Okay, you could argue about whether it's better or worse as non-white. You know, okay, you could argue like the effects of it. But why would you want that? Why would you look around the country and say there are too many white people? And that's the official position of every institution in the United States. All of our schools, we give preference to non-whites, non-white males, every single school, every single big business, every single federal contract. Institutionally, we are opposed to whites and white men. And we're so marinating in it that no one stops and says, wait, what the hell is that?

1:19:20Again, that's why we hated the Nazis because they did shit like that. That's why we say segregation was wrong, which it was. That's why we hate Bull Connor. That's why we venerate Martin Luther King because that's wrong. That way of thinking is wrong. And by the way, it doesn't matter what group is being targeted. It is wrong in an absolute sense. It's a universal principle. It's always wrong. Whether you're Pakistani or Malaysian or Indian or from Myanmar or from Minnesota, it's always wrong to hurt people or help others to elevate some and suppress others on the basis of their race. I thought that was the basis of our common culture.

1:19:58And they told me it was. They put a monument on the mall to that, which I totally believe in. Judge a man by the content of his character, not the color of his skin. I grew up with that. I believe it. I believe it now. And we're doing exactly the opposite. And it's so totally pervasive, all pervasive. And nothing has been done to reverse it at all. We're mad about anti-Semitism at Harvard, which I'm against anti-Semitism completely for the same reasons. But no one's lifted a finger to address the actual problem, which is like normal middle-class white kids have no shot of going to Harvard. They're hated.

1:20:33The curriculum hates them officially. Here's a book saying whiteness is evil. Let's assign that. It's like, if there was a book that says Jewishness is evil, we'd be like, no. Or blackness is evil, no. So this has gone on for really since the Second World War. And I think like so many things that are bad. And if you say that, they're like, are you for Hitler? No, I'm very anti-Hitler. Hitler was anti-Christian and a murderer, destroyed his own people and lots of other people's, including Jews. And I'm totally opposed to all of that. But it's just a fact that since the Second World War, these trends, which are now flowering, and we can see that it's the end of something, they began then.

1:21:15They began in 1945. What is that? And I have a lot of thoughts about that. But one is that our leaders globally in the West took away from World War II one big lesson, and that's that any white majority Christian country is a threat to world peace, to the order. You can't have a majority white Christian country because Germany under the Nazis was majority white Christian. Now, of course, the Nazis were not a Christian government. They were an anti-Christian government that killed a lot of priests, but whatever. However, that has somehow become a kind of unspoken consensus among many of our leaders.

1:21:50In fact, I would say almost all of our leaders. They're embarrassed of tons of white people in the same place. Look at that picture. That doesn't look like America. And none of us have ever said anything like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're attacking people on the basis of their race? Isn't that what you say you hate that we're all against? But you're doing it. Why don't you stop that immediately? No one has ever had the balls to say that. And so it's kind of proceeded apace and it's become not just a consensus, but like the reason for everything. And the result of that is the total destruction of the white world.

1:22:31And there was a white world. There was a Chinese world too and an Indian world and an Arab world. There are lots of different worlds or different peoples in the country. And I know them all and I like them all actually because I've been to all their countries. I've never been to a country I didn't like. I've never merited it in a culture I didn't think was interesting and kind of cool, even though it's not mine. You know, I am not. I'm the opposite of, like, small-minded person. I'm, like, really for diversity, actually. I've really enjoyed it a lot. If I went, you know, I always spend a lot of time in the Middle East, and I enjoy it because it's Middle Eastern.

1:23:04It's not American. So, like, you can love different cultures, and I sincerely ask anyone who travels with me, I sincerely do, without wanting to destroy the one you grew up in. And like if other people are trying to destroy it on the basis of race, which they are, it's totally within bounds to be like, what are you doing and why? And that's what immigration is, of course. It's not an effort to make our economy better. And you see these people say, well, you know, which is true. This is true. But you'll hear people say of mass migration, well, it's an effort for the ownership class to access cheaper labor by globalizing everything.

1:23:40And that, of course, as a matter of economics is absolutely true, but it's not the whole story. When you start importing people from countries that are, you know, badly educated and socially dysfunctional and totally incompatible culturally with yours, are you really doing that so you can like reap their cheap labor? Are we importing Somalis so we can like set them to work in factories for half the rate that Native Americans? No, we're not. They're not working in factories, not working at all in a lot of cases. They're on state and federal aid. I'm not attacking them. I'm just saying I'm attacking the motives of the people who imported them against the will of the American population.

1:24:18I mean, there was never a groundswell. Let's bring in 50 million people illegally and put them on welfare. No one ever asked for that. No one ever wanted that. So why did they do it? Well, they did it not to make the country richer. They didn't. They did it to make it non-majority white. So that is an act by definition of racial hostility, of racism. And they've never been called out on it because somehow the first thing they did was take the moral high ground and occupy it and start yelling at everybody about how they're bad, you're racist. Shut up, racist. Shut up, Nazi. and they so thoroughly intimidated the population into not saying anything that they just destroyed it.

1:25:00And then a lot of the whites, who are really always the ones that I blame, since I am white, and you just sort of instinctively blame people who look like you, just a fact, they're always telling you, you hate the other. That's the opposite of what I've noticed about people. I feel like people are much more open-minded about the other. I've been in probably every country in the world and people do something outrageous and I'll be like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I'm much less judgmental. But when someone who looks like me who grew up in the same country I did does something wrong, I have no grace for that person.

1:25:30I judge them. And it was the whites who did this. Sorry, it's just a fact. And they're the ones who get hysterical when you point it out. And when I go to the UK, which is a lot because I have family there, as I said, I'm going in two days, I never have been in an argument with any Pakistani or Bangladeshi or Indian ever or Arab in London ever. They're always like, yeah, okay, you've got views. And they actually agree with a lot of my views, honestly. I just have noticed this, okay? It's always the rich whites who get way up in your face about it. In fact, I had a speech at a very, very famous school, one of the most famous schools in England.

1:26:15I had a speech on Sunday night. Someone at the school asked me to do it. Of course, I will do it for free. I was there, and so I would do it. And I just got a text saying, no, you've been canceled because they don't want you on campus because you're too dangerous. This is like a very famous white school. They're the ones who were mad. They're the ones who were touchy about it. And the reason they're mad and they're touchy is because, and this is such a familiar phenomenon, they've turned the hate against them inward on themselves. And people who hate themselves are the least trustworthy, most dangerous people in the world.

1:26:52If someone hates himself, he'll definitely hate you. There's just no doubt. There's no doubt. I've watched people carefully for many years, and that is the group that I fear, the people who've internalized the hate and turned it inward. And we have whole countries like that and whole leadership classes. Like the very familiar image of the angry, menopausal, liberal politician screaming at people about their sexism and racism. What are we really looking at? We're looking at someone who hates herself. You know, she had no leadership in her life, no security, no love, no real relationships. She's miserable, and she's turning that misery outward and projecting it on the population.

1:27:32And that's a lot of our leadership classes like that.

1:27:38Sorry for such a long answer, but I really feel it. Wow. Well, I mean, where does it derive from? Well, that's a really interesting question, and the short answer is I don't know, you know? I mean, as I think I've made clear in our conversation, I'm much more likely now, in the past couple of years, to think about the spiritual dimension of... Who wins? What is the motive? Nobody wins. That's kind of what I've arrived at. And that actually is what made me think more deeply about Christianity and about the spiritual realm and read the Bible. and has really changed my life was not because I noticed how decent Christians were to each other.

1:28:33I wish I could say that was true. But what changed my life was watching how American politics had changed from an argument about how best to serve the population. You had two sides, you know, having this debate. Well, I think we should raise taxes. No, I think we should lower them. But the goal was at least purportedly the same on both sides. Like, how do we do the best job we can for the people we represent, that we lead, for our people. And that was always the conversation. You had these kind of amazing, interesting arguments. And I literally did it for a living. I was on a show called Crossfire.

1:29:05It was right and left, and we would debate what was best for the country. And the debates were dumb and whatever. It was cable news, so of course it was at a pretty low level. But I never one-time questioned the goal was like, what's good for America? And then about 10 years ago, the nature of the debate changed. all of a sudden you had these issues that like immigration was one, the trans thing, the gay thing was another. And I was like, how in the world could that possibly be good for anybody? It's not good for the people you say you're for. It's not good for everyone else. Like I see only destruction, abolish the police or defund the police.

1:29:43That's one of the things that convinced me. It's like, okay, if you believe that George Floyd was beaten to death by a racist cop, he OD'd on fentanyl. But even if you believed He was beaten to death by a racist cop. And the biggest problem that black people have in America is racist cops, racist white cops making forty seven thousand dollars a year. They're the problem. It's not the billionaires that are the problem. It's the union cop is the problem. OK. All right. But if you believe that, let's say you really believe that and let's say, you know, you really, your life's goal was to help black people, which I'm not against.

1:30:17It's a fine goal. Help black people. How long would it take you if you really wanted to help black people to get to the solution, defund the police? You would never arrive at that solution because obviously defunding the police is not going to help black people or white people or Asian people or any people. It's not going to help people make the police better, maybe, but get rid of the police. Like, how does that work? How is that possibly going to wind up improving anybody's life? And of course, the answer was it can't and it didn't. But it was never going to. So I watched that. And of course, I'm opposed to it, you know, for the normal conservative reasons.

1:30:56We need police. But even the fact that we were having that conversation was a signal to me that this is a very different thing than I'm used to. This is people advocating, and not just like the underclass. By the way, black people played no role in that conversation at all. No one ever asked black people what they thought. It was just like eight of their designated representatives on MSNBC were like, I'm a black person. But no one actually asked black people what they thought because no one cared. The point was never to make anyone's life better. It was to destroy the country and the people who live in it.

1:31:32It was purely destructive. I really brooded on this because I had to write the script every night. So I was like constantly in my head thinking like, what are we watching? Don't be distracted by the bullshit. Like, what is this? And I concluded because there was no other conclusion that the point was destruction. That was the point. So I have always thought since I was a child that it's a binary. There are creators and destroyers. A synonym for this is good and evil. God creates. His opponents destroy. God created the earth and the heavens. His opponents destroy them. It's that simple. I mean, it's complex in many ways, but fundamentally, it's that simple.

1:32:09It's creation and destruction. And I've always been for creation, always. I believe in procreation. I believe in impregnating women. It's awesome. I believe in building cabins. Awesome. I like to create. I like what my dogs have, puppies. So I saw this right away and I was like, this is not a political debate. This is a spiritual struggle, creation versus destruction. And that totally changed my life in every way. That really set off a chain reaction in me that changed me and changed my understanding of the world, changed my sense of my own purpose in the world. How long have you been thinking this?

1:32:51since Memorial Day 2020. What happened on Memorial Day in 2020? George Floyd riots. And I'd covered, you know, a lot of stuff and been a lot of places and seen chaos and stuff. And one thing that I have concluded that I just noticed as a kid, watch, you know, Katrina or in Iraq or in Pakistan where you see, like, things fall apart, is that everyone, you know, was so scared of war and violence and all that stuff, but that the scare and oppression, you know, I was always an Orwell fan, so I was like, you know, Big Brother's the scariest thing. No, the scariest thing is chaos. Chaos is the scariest thing.

1:33:34Chaos. And then later in life, when I read the Old Testament, I was like, God brought order out of chaos. Of course. I didn't even know. I mean, I'm Episcopalian, so I didn't really know anything. but chaos. I just noticed it because I was in a couple, several times in the middle of what was chaos. No one in charge. Kids with rifles are in charge. They have no goals. They have no program. There's no ideology. My whole life, I've been understanding history through the lens of ideology. There are these revolutionary peasants in Peru and they're Sendero Luminoso and they're revolutionary peasants in Vietnam and they're the Viet Cong.

1:34:10Everything was about the idea And what I didn't realize until I saw it in person was, no, it's not that. It's atavistic. It's much deeper than that. It's more primitive. It's more fundamental than that. It's the struggle in the universe. It's between order and chaos. And I'm on the side of order. Not on the side of oppression. Order is now a synonym for repression, which I hate because I believe in the human soul and the dignity of every person. But chaos is the worst thing. And I saw people in my country fomenting chaos for its own sake. I don't know if they're intentionally evil. Probably not.

1:34:48Most of us aren't. But they were tools of spiritual forces doing that. And I instantly recognized this was totally different from everything I'd been covering and thinking about, writing about, talking about on TV for 30 years. This was a new thing. And, um, and that just changed it. When that chaos broke out in Minneapolis, I'm not from Minneapolis. I have no attachment to Minneapolis. Yes, there are a lot of Swedes in Minneapolis, or were. I think they've left. But I saw this for what it was. And I was so bothered by it that I actually went to the convenience store where George Floyd tried to pass the phony$20 bill and went to the site where he was killed and went all around by myself.

1:35:27I literally landed there, went by myself, didn't do a story on it or anything. I just want to see it. And what I saw was what I expected to see a year later. It was a year after it happened. In 2021, I went, and I saw a place that had never recovered and never would recover. And that, to me, was proof of what I suspected, which was the point was destruction. The point was not rebirth. They always tell you it's rebirth. We need to tear it down in order to rebuild it. They never rebuild it because they don't want to, because that's not the point. And people who want to build, just go ahead and build.

1:35:56And people who want to destroy, go ahead and destroy. And they're in totally different camps. They're on opposing sides. It's literally that simple. Anyone who tells you we need to knock it down in order to build it again is lying to you and probably to himself. He may think that that's not his goal. His goal is to destroy because Satan's job is to destroy you and everything around you, everything good, everything beautiful, everything orderly, everything warm and loving and fraternal. Everything honest is to destroy. Destroy loyalty, destroy beauty. All the things that are virtues will be destroyed in that all-consuming fire of destruction.

1:36:31and I just didn't know that. I was thinking in totally different terms, political terms, stupid terms, childish terms, and I didn't even know it. I didn't even know how dumb I was because you never do.

1:36:48Holy shit. So that was a moment for me and I was, the beauty of my job then and now is there's a lot of... Not a lot, not enough, but there is some contemplative time. Because if you have to talk about stuff or present an opinion, part of the process is thinking about what is my opinion. And now that I have no pressure on me from anywhere, I have zero pressure on me at all. I don't have a boss. I don't care about what people who hate me think, necessarily. And if they have a good point, I try to listen to it, but... their purpose is not to instruct, to destroy. But anyway, now that I have no pressure on me, I have more contemplative time, and I have a freer mind, and I think I can see things more clearly.

1:37:38I hope I can, always with the knowledge that we go really off track and don't know it, including me, but I think everything I've said is true. I believe it's true, anyway. Do you think that this agenda that you're talking about, do you think this comes from nations, governments, humans, or do you think that this is spiritual? Well, it's clearly spiritual. Really, every big thing that we do is... If you believe what every culture has ever left any record of what it believes, has believed, there is an ongoing unseen struggle between light and darkness, order and chaos, destruction and creation, good and evil, God and Satan.

1:38:26There's no culture that hasn't believed that ever, ever, except Western culture since the end of the Second World War, where it's absurd delusion about God is dead, but God's not dead. And everyone has thought that and everyone's thought that because it's obviously true and the signs are all around us. So if you believe that, and I didn't believe this five or six years ago, So I may have told you I believed it, but I definitely didn't really believe it at all. I didn't live like I believed it. I didn't think like I believed it. But now I do, because I've seen a lot. I've seen more than most people.

1:38:57And that's my conclusion.

1:39:01And if you believe that, then you know that in the end, the good guys win. There's a lot of drama between here and there. Probably won't live to see it, but it doesn't matter. you do your part. But definitely, it makes a lot of the details not unimportant, but it sets them in context. And it definitely gets you out of this kind of pointless loop in your head of like, shock, outrage, I can't, you know, into the kind of social media dialogue that goes on inside your own skull where you're, you know, it's like point, counterpoint, well, this person did this. I used to believe in that person. I can't believe he's betrayed me.

1:39:48It's like, again, for the fifth time, what did you think it was? What did you think it was? Did you find yourself believing that a human being was going to save your soul and like fix human sin? Who's the asshole? You. You believe that. And I no longer do believe that at all. And I know how flawed I am. I mean, I have a keen sense of that. I'm reminded of it every day. And so how can I expect someone else to be like good and true and pure and never bend the knee and always do the right thing? Like, no, we're all imperfect, but we're, you know, some of us are at least trying with the knowledge that we're going to fail and, you know, humiliate ourselves from time to time.

1:40:35But I've just, I'm not shocked at all anymore. But what is it? The destruction of whites? I don't know. I really don't know. But tell me how that's not real. It is real. And what's so hilarious is they're like, one of the reasons I started thinking about this was, you know, I hosted this TV show. I still host a version of something like that, I guess. And so in that process, as you well know, you get a lot of numbers. Like you're an American, You're trained to make decisions based on the data, have your perceptions shaped by science, you know, all these things you grew up with. And so it's always like, hey, can you pull the numbers for me on this?

1:41:17Like, who lives here? Do we know? This is such a big country. And I've been all around it and feel like I know it pretty well, but I don't really know it that well. No one knows America. It's like the CIA. No one person in CIA knows what everybody is doing in CIA because it's compartmentalized. America, same thing. So I would pull these numbers and like, I never was interested really in demographics. I'm still not that interested, but I would shoot these numbers and it's like, holy shit, this country is changing fast. On the most basic level, who lives here? You know, like this town was 90 % white, now it's 60 % Hispanic.

1:41:52And that took 20 years. Has there ever been anything that moved that fast? Like human populations change very slowly. You do blood tests and the people who live 20 miles from Stonehenge and then you do excavations at Stonehenge and you find that they're related. So what do you, what do you think? So, but I would see this and I'd be like, wow, this country is really changing. And then I would see, but I still wasn't like hyped up about it or anything, but I was like, wow, that's really kind of crazy. This is happening so fast. And then I would see people like Chuck Schumer stand up and be like, the one thing you're not allowed to say is that the great replacement theory is real.

1:42:23You're an anti-Semite. And my first thought was, what, what are the anti-Semite? What does that have to do with it? I guess I'm too literal or slow or something. And I'm like, it's nothing to do with Jews. It's not anti-Semitic, but like, how is that a conspiracy theory? That's, here are the numbers, dude. And there's you on the floor of the Senate saying, I can't wait till this country's minority white. Okay. So you're telling me you can't wait for something to happen. And when I say, what are you talking about? You scream at me and call me a bigot and tell me that I'm a conspiracy theorist for noticing what you just bragged about.

1:42:56You don't have to be a genius. And I'm definitely not a genius to say, what the hell is that? And that's when I, and then of course I travel something in Australia and like, oh my gosh, New Zealand or Canada. What is, and again, to answer your question in one sense, I don't know exactly, but this is the biggest thing, just biggest fact, biggest change to happen to global population ever in recorded history that we know of. and nobody mentions it because they're too intimidated that they'll be like called David Duke or something.

1:43:36So, I mean, what you're saying basically is the white race is destroying itself from the inside, just like the country is destroying itself from the inside. I mean, look, again, I hope I'm being honest about my lack of understanding. I don't understand the full outlines of this, but... What does it look like if the white race is destroyed? I don't know. But why would you ever want to destroy any race on purpose?

1:44:05I mean, we had, you know, Europeans in the United States had a lot to do with the destruction of the American Indian. It wasn't all intentional. Disease played the primary role. But there was also like a sense that we can't have the whole continent if people are still occupying it. We got to move them and keep them from roaming around and pen them up in Oklahoma or whatever. And that was intentional. And what was not all intentional, again, disease played the primary role, but there was intent there. And why did my ancestors do that? Europeans do that? Because they wanted the continent and there were people there.

1:44:45And that story is pretty familiar. Like that's the story of the Mongols sweeping across the steppe. That's the story of the Normans showing up in England. That's the story of every invasion and rape. And, you know, that's the story. Replace your genetics with mine. Rape your wife. My Viking ancestors participated in that. Sorry. Okay, so we know that. That's just like a feature of history because it's a feature of human nature. Is that what this is? I don't know. But it's never been more effective than what's happening now. And it's, as far as I know, never happened with the active, enthusiastic complicity of the people being replaced.

1:45:21I've never seen anything like that. It's incredible. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because people do commit suicide and they are convinced that they have to kill themselves. But the pure hate it shows is what still stuns me. How could leaders hate their own people so much? And as a father, I don't understand that. And I'm really bothered by that. If you have people in your care, your only real job is to love them. And we can argue about what love looks like and how it manifests itself, but you can't hate them. You cannot hate them. And our leaders have hated us with homicidal hatred. Homicidal hatred.

1:46:04It's not just, I want to get rich and, like, you know, steal all your shit. It's like, no, I want you to die. And they couldn't have been clearer about it. I don't know how I didn't see it, but the results make it irrefutable. Irrefutable. The country I grew up in, I was born in May of 1969. Tell me the differences between America in May of 69, months before we landed on the moon, or whatever, and now in the main differences, a completely different group of people live here. What happened to the old people? How did that happen? It was intentional. Of course it was. They said it out loud, the president of the United States.

1:46:45And I can't wait to listen. He's just like, again, going back to the first part of this conversation, how is it that you see things right in front of you and yet don't see them? I don't know. It's a spell, but I want to break free from it.

1:47:05do you ever feel that in your life like something's just right there and you couldn't see it oh yeah all the time all the time and then i get pissed at myself no of course me too or just bewildered like gosh i flatter myself i'm such a keen observer really i mean you know you You say that the politicians hate us. I believe you. I think the same thing. I don't think any of them... Can't say any of them. We talked about Eli Crane earlier. For sure. Oh, I know. So you had Tim Burchard on. I like him, too. Love Tim Burchard. I love a couple of them. I don't want to wreck their lives by telling you who they are, but they're a couple I talk to and love and think are really decent people caught in a maelstrom.

1:47:53Caught... You know, though, I mean... I thought about running in 2020, or not 2020, last election, and I really thought about it. I was like, fuck, man, I'm... Here? Yeah. I thought about running for Congress or... I was just like, somebody's got to get involved. You know, and I called, you know... the two people just named that i the only fucking people i trust in there and um i called some other people too but the general consensus was like you're not good you're not going to have any impact no they know they don't have any fucking impact and they're so frustrated they're unhappy so unhappy so unhappy No, it's a nightmare.

1:48:49I've known people at all positions of leadership, and the best ones are the most frustrated. They leave. They leave. They leave. Yeah, they leave. They make accommodations that destroy them. The real battles within us, right? So don't be destroyed. Don't make the trade. Power for your integrity. Never do that. It's never worked that. I know people who've done that. That's the trap that we were talking about earlier. Well, it's the... Right. Fall down, worship me, and all this will be yours. I mean, that's the bargain. That's the bargain, and every person faces that. Every person faces that. Usually a lot.

1:49:33And I know a million people who've taken the deal, and I know a few of them really well, like intimately well. And I know it sounds like moral, and I've certainly done that a million times in my life. You make accommodations because you think it's worth it or whatever, you know, I'm not being judgmental. But I know a couple people intimately well who've done it in a big way, you know, big accommodation, big reward. All this will be yours. And I can say from firsthand knowledge that that is not a good trade at all. And those people are tormented. They're in hell on earth. And I'm not guessing at all about that.

1:50:12And it's really sad. They're captives. They're absolutely captives. And you can tell who's free. You feel bad for them? Oh, my gosh, yes. Why? They fucking sold us out. Because they're living in hell. Because they're in bondage. They sold you out. They sold your wife out. Oh, I've certainly been sold out a million times. They sold your wife out. They sold all your friends out. They sold the whole fucking country. Oh, of course. And I... Why do you feel bad for them? Because imagine being that man. You know, the person you feel sorry is for in the whole New Testament is Peter. Jesus is like, you're gonna...

1:50:49Imagine... Okay, so the family that I grew up in, which was not, you know, conventional at all, but we had a very simple moral code in my family. Very simple, the most simple. It was the mafia code. You know, some things were discouraged but allowed. You wind up banging your assistant. Don't do that. Bye. You know, some things happen. You cheat on your taxes. Okay, don't get caught. Betray people you love who love you. That's it. That is not acceptable in any way. Betrayal of someone you love is the worst thing you could ever do. True betrayal. Denial of a person you love. and that was just beaten into us.

1:51:29I mean, we never even questioned that. That was the center of our family, that belief. You never betray your father. I remember my father saying, don't commit a triple murder, but if you ever do, like, call me, you know, we'll get you to Bolivia, you know, or whatever. And that was just like, it couldn't have been clearer. So then you read the New Testament, it's like Jesus is like, to Peter, his guy who loves him more than anyone loves him, Jesus loves Peter most. And he's like, you're going to betray me three times. Betray you? Yes. And then Peter does it to a girl. This little girl is like, don't you know him?

1:52:02And Peter's like, I've never seen the guy before. And I remember the first time I read that, I was like, you are disgusting. You betrayed your friend? Like, I just, in my mind, I think whenever I see someone do something bad, I'm like, yeah, I'm so glad I didn't do that. But I know my, I could do anything. I'm just being honest. Like, I don't, I don't trust myself. I would never betray someone I love. I've never done it. I never would do it. And then you see that and you're just like, imagine living with that. Imagine betraying somebody. I mean, I've been denounced this week by like 20 people I've helped.

1:52:38And you sort of toggle, like in a couple of cases, like really helped. And you toggle back and forth in your head between being like outraged. Like how could you, you know, all the things I did for you. I had you on my show. I helped you in your divorce or whatever it is. in the case of one guy, I sold your schlocky books because I felt sorry for you. And now you're calling me a Nazi and you're like, oh, I'm so mad. And then really, I mean this, I'm not just saying it. I really ended up feeling like, oh, how'd you like to be that guy? How would you like to be that guy? Like your wife knows your wife is, she's never gonna enjoy sex with you again.

1:53:18You know, a woman can't respect a man like that. Losing the respect of your wife? Oh, man. Your wife's pissed at you that, you know, whatever. Your wife doesn't respect you? Rather be dead. I mean that in my heart. I mean that. Rather be dead because that a wife's respect for her husband is the basis of a family. If you could distill it to one thing that makes a happy family, happy children, it's a wife's respect for her husband, period. Lots of elements in the stew, but the stock, the base of it is a wife's respect for her husband. Now, of course, it's not given, it's earned, but it's the basis of everything.

1:54:05And if a man, you know, weakness is very hard for women to forgive, real weakness, not physical, but a moral weakness, being a worm, man, they know. They're like animals, so they know, and they don't lie to themselves. Like a woman knows what a woman knows, and you can't dissuade her from it, because she can smell it. She doesn't doubt her own instincts on anything. Woman's intuition. It's the realest thing there is. And the number one thing they don't like, and have every reason not to like, is a man who is weak. And she will not respect that man. And period. You can't make her... You actually can't really make women do anything.

1:54:38We learn. And which is great. That's what I like about him. But... That's what I like about him. Yeah, you have to really lead. If you want a woman to respect you, you know, you have to be better, actually. No one wants to hear that, but it's just true. You can't make him respect you. You can't beat him into respecting you. Shut up, respect me! No, it doesn't work that way. So that's why the relationship between men and women is so compelling. It's like the movie that never ends. It's like a cliffhanger at every turn. It's like so complex and interesting and rewarding. And it's like, it's the main source of joy and fascination in life.

1:55:18But this one person I'm thinking of, I'm not gonna name him, but specifically, I literally was like blown away that this guy called me a Nazi. And then of course, it's like a career of calling me a Nazi. And then I was like, oh, at what cost to you? I mean, in three months, no one will remember. Why were they calling him a Nazi? He doesn't seem like a Nazi. No one will care. No one ever cares about this stuff over time. We can't remember. You hear people's names, and you're like, weren't you in some kind of sex scandal 10 years ago? No one can remember. But a man who loses, who behaves that way in a dishonorable, degraded way in front of his wife who betrays someone for advantage, like, she'll never forget that, ever.

1:55:59and he has to live with that. And I don't have, of all the sins I've committed and there are many I could write books about them, that's just not one of them because I'm never going to do that. And I'm not being pious or self-righteous, but it's just true. And so I do feel sorry for people who've taken that deal. It is not worth it. And the other thing that you have learned and that I've learned, if you're ever successful in any way and all of a sudden, like the things that you want and you can have, like, oh, I really want this thing. And you get the thing, and it's like Christmas morning. The second you open the present, it's like, ugh, kind of a letdown.

1:56:34You know? The best part of Christmas morning is before you open the presents. What's beneath the wrapping? Holy shit, I can't, you know, is it a bike? Like, you don't know. And it's totally compelling. And the second you know, it's a lot like an orgasm. It's like, oh, man, I worked hard to get here, but... Ugh. It's like, it's why the French call it le petit mort, you know, the little death. because it's a letdown. And everything in life is that. Everything material is that. And so you get this thing that you thought you wanted, whether it's the new bike or control over a nation or adulation or vindication or billions of dollars, and then you sit there alone in your living room, and you're like, eh, kind of wasn't what I thought it was gonna be.

1:57:18That is true. And the one good thing about being successful is you learn that, you know? That's, like, the first thing you learn. This is what I got. people kissing my ass or a summer house. It's like, okay. I mean, it's not against any of that. It's, you know, great to be respected, great to have a summer house, but like... It's not worth having your wife not respect you. Nothing is worth that. Ever. Everyone used to know that. People would be like, happily go die, you know, to win the respect of their wives. And they should. They should. It's worth it. Why did you decide to have Nick Fontes on?

1:57:53I thought you guys... Oh, I hated Nick Fuentes, and he... Well, going back to what I was just saying, he criticized my dad, also criticized my wife and my son, but... I don't know much about him. Well, I was super pissed at him. He was 27, and he criticized my dad. Why were you pissed at him? Because he criticized your dad? Not allowed to criticize my dad. I'm his oldest son. Those are just the rules. Can't stand that. My father was a flawed man. What did he... But a great man. Oh, CIA guy. He did all this bad shit. He was involved in Iran-Contra. And so it was true, you know, sort of true, or something true enough, I guess.

1:58:30So that made it worse. It didn't matter whatever he said about my dad. But I just, my father just died, and I was like, I can't, I'm, that just drives me absolutely insane. So, and I feel an obligation to be mad about it because it's my dad. Those are the rules. So I attacked him, and then I called him. And I was like, look, I don't know you, but I want you to know why. I always want to tell people why I don't like them, and I want to do it right to their face. And I always call people and just say, I'm going to attack you, or I did attack you, and I want you to hear why from me. I just did that yesterday to somebody.

1:59:06Anyway, I always do that. And so I called Nick Fuentes, and I said, I want you to know why I attacked you. I attacked you because you criticized my father, and I just never going to accept that. My father was a great man, and flawed, but a great man, like literally a great man, and I'm never gonna accept that. And he, to his credit, was like, I get that. I get that. But I still didn't like him. I'm not friends with him now. But I, because of that, I got a lot of input from people. Like, I don't know that much about Nick Fuentes. I'm 56. I don't like the internet, so I don't really know that much.

1:59:42I've seen clips. He's very talented. I know that. But I'm not an expert on that at all. And I got calls from a lot of people, including some very influential people who know a lot about Nick Fuentes. And they're like, this kid is the single most influential figure among young white men, and not just white, actually. Is that true? Oh, it's definitely true. I mean, it was true last month. I don't know if it's true now. I mean, everything changes. Who knows? But that was definitely my impression, and I think it's right. And in the subsequent weeks, I've asked a million different people, Nick Fuentes, And like, yes, he's extremely influential among young men.

2:00:22Wow, how young? What age are... They're 20s, teens and 20s, college students, high school students, college students just out of college, can't find a job. They can't find jobs, right? A lot of this, by the way, a lot of the frustration is economic, which no one wants to talk about or seems invited to talk about. It's not about the Jews. It's about the economy. And it's about the betrayal that young men feel when they go through all these hoops and get all these stupid degrees and find out they're worth nothing and they're in$300 ,000 in debt and I'm like, I did what you told me to do and I'm fucked, so I'm mad at you.

2:00:54And why wouldn't they be? They have every right to be. That's my personal opinion, but it's just true. Anyway, and a lot of those men watch Nick Fuentes. So it was like, Nick Fuentes is one of those figures that everybody, like Putin, that's why I interviewed Putin. Everyone talks about this person, but nobody, I believe, and one of my missions, this is not everyone's mission, it just happens to be mine at this stage of my life, is I want to hear what people think. And I want to give people a chance to speak for themselves. Because I think every person from Idi Amin to Mother Teresa has an inherent right to tell their own story.

2:01:30And you can disagree with the story, and you can doubt the story, and you can do whatever you want. But to say they don't have a right to tell their story, I just reject that. I disagree. I disagree. And I feel like that's not my only mission in life, but that's one of my beliefs. and I've done what I can, my limited attention and means to give people a place to tell their story. Why should people on the internet have a right to define anybody with two-minute clips, and that person doesn't have a right to tell his own story? I just reject that. I don't care. I reject that whether it's Hillary Clinton or Nick Fuentes or anyone in between.

2:02:10People have a right to say what they think. And if you want to watch it, don't. So I just believe that and I'll never stop believing that. And if they don't have that right, what you're really saying is other people have a right to speak for someone else. And they don't. They don't because we're all created by God and we all have the right to say what we think. So I believe that. So I was like, yeah, if I have Nick Fuentes on, obviously, probably some people will criticize me, just as they did with Putin. You know, you love Nick Fuentes. You agree with everything he says. Nope. I've interviewed war criminals in Liberia.

2:02:47I've interviewed cannibals. I kind of liked them, just being honest. I kind of like everybody I interview. You guys break bread together? Me and the cannibals? No. And by the way, this was in Africa, and I did not lecture them about cannibalism, which I'm totally opposed to. But anyway, so I did, and it was really interesting. And I try not to lecture people just in general because I don't like being lectured at all, and I don't think most people do. And I think the purpose of lecturing people usually is self-aggrandizing. The point of lecturing, you know, Sean Ryan, you're a bad person. Unlike me, I'm a great person.

2:03:29Listen, I don't have the need to convince people I'm a great person at all. I just don't feel that need. They can decide for themselves. And I feel like that's a really dishonest way to interview people. You're using them as a man uses a prostitute for his own pleasure. So I'm using you to make a statement about myself. I'm not doing that. I don't need to do it. I don't want to do it, and I'm not doing it. So I'm not going to lecture Putin about his war crimes. You can read about Putin all you want. I want to hear what Putin says. And I took that exact same approach with Nick Fuentes. And I knew there would be, you know, an outcry or whatever.

2:04:04Probably understated it a little bit. But, you know, not up to me. But my conscience is clear. One of the only parts that kind of bothered me, but now it amuses me, is there was a point in the interview where Nick Fuentes said, really, out of nowhere, I love Stalin! I was like, Joseph Stalin? And he's like, yeah, I love Stalin. I mean, this was not relevant to what we were talking about at all. It just was out of the blue. So I said... Just had to get it in there, huh? I guess. He had like a need to tell me he loves Stalin. So I made a snap decision. I said something like, I don't know what you're talking about, we'll get back to that.

2:04:42And then of course, I got completely sidetracked and forgotten, didn't get back to it. And I was criticized, didn't get back to it. It's fair, I guess. My instinct really was, he's just saying that, He probably doesn't know much about Stalin. I actually do know a lot about Stalin. It's like the only thing I studied in college and I'm interested in the topic. Maybe he does know a lot about Stalin. I don't know. But I do, actually, and I have a lot of thoughts on Stalin. It's a very interesting topic. And people flipped out about that and accused me of loving Stalin. And what I found, now find amusing about that, is those exact same people were also getting mad at me for questioning the course of the Second World War and the conclusions that we're drawing from it.

2:05:24Now, my main problem with America's involvement in the Second World War was the fact that we sided with Stalin and armed Stalin and made it possible for Stalin to fight that war through a program called Lendlease, which was passed, I think, in the fall of 1941 with a unanimous vote among Democrats in the Congress. And Stalin was the greatest murderer in history by some counts. Stalin, Mao, you know, pick one, but Stalin has a good, has a right to be called that and was definitely unchallenged the most prolific murderer of Christians in history, genocider of Christians, of Christians and murderer of priests and a destroyer of churches and like a true enemy of Christianity.

2:06:04Killed tens of millions of Christians. And the U.S. government sent him billions and billions, adjusted for inflation, but billions of dollars in cash and clothing and and war materiel, and airplanes, and tanks, and jeeps. I mean, we armed the Red Army. We armed Stalin. To which people say, well, are you for Hitler? No, I'm totally opposed to Hitler. But I'm never going to accept arming Stalin. I'm just not. Why would I? And these same people were like, well, you had to choose. Well, no. How about what started, we're not arming Stalin. We're also not going to arm Hitler. Why would we do that? You lose all moral authority.

2:06:42You're sending billions to Joseph Stalin of the Ukrainian famine and the purge trials and all the rest. I don't take you seriously if you arm Stalin. Why would I? It was those exact same people who jumped my shit for being pro-Stalin in this interview with Nick Fuentes. And I'm like, I don't take you seriously. I'm starting to think you'll say anything to get me to be quiet. And that just made me laugh to myself. I had no one to talk to about this, of course, but I was amused by it. No, I'm very anti-Stalin. That's actually one of the reasons I'm mad at Churchill, because he was closely allied with Stalin.

2:07:24I'm mad at Roosevelt for the same reason. I'm sad about my country's involvement in a war where we sided with Stalin. And I'm bewildered that no one will say that. And that anyone who does say that is like anti-American. My family's been here for like 400 years. I'm hardly anti-American. I couldn't be more pro-America. And I'm pro-America because in general, we don't arm Stalin. And I don't think we should ever arm Stalin again. Or back Al-Qaeda, or have the Al-Qaeda guy to the White House like the other day. I'm just not for that. So I guess long story short, I have concluded through much experience that some of the people screaming at me don't have the moral authority to get my attention.

2:08:07Good. Fair? Good for you. What did you learn from that interview? I learned that he's popular for the same reason most people are popular in unmediated media, because he's got a really compelling message, which is like 90 % true or pretty true. What is his message? His message is we've been betrayed by the people who thought we're on our side. We thought these people were for us. They actually sold us out. Well, that's certainly true. Israel has way too much influence over our Congress. Obviously, 95 % of members of Congress take money from a foreign lobby, AIPAC. How is that defensible? By the way, you could be for Israel, but still be like, what is that?

2:08:59Why is that allowed? Are there bigger lobbying firms than AIPAC? Well, there are a million lobbies, and not all of them have organizations. You know, I don't think Israel's America's biggest problem. I've never thought that. But it's certainly America's most insulting problem. It's so insulting to be ordered around by a country of 9 million people when you're in the United States. Like, what? It's a totally irrelevant country. It's only relevance is we promise to protect them. Therefore, we're, like, involved in all this crap. You've fought some of the wars. But if you take that out and you're just like, hey, you know, good luck.

2:09:33You're great. Wish you well. Can't wait to go to Jerusalem next summer on vacation, which I have done and hope to do again. But if we've imbued the country with all the significance that is not, there are no resources. It's the size of Maryland. It's got 9 million people. Like this is a big world, very complicated. And somehow our Congress and successive White Houses have decided that the only thing that matters is this tiny, irrelevant country. It's not an attack on the country. I do wish Israel well. I always have, And I still do. But I am pretty offended by that behavior because they're supposed to be representing me and my fentanyl-addicted neighbors, and they're not.

2:10:09And they don't care at all about Americans. Our leadership. I'm not attacking Israel. I'm talking about our leadership. So that's a totally fair position. And that is basically his position, or that's he's describing the frustration that normal people feel when they see that. And I'm good for him. The Jew-hate stuff, I'm totally opposed to on every level. moral, and practical. And I told him that. Whatever. So I'm not going to whine about how people are misrepresenting my views because that's who they are. But I personally think big picture, it's always good to get clarity about what people really believe, about what they really care about.

2:10:48We should know. We should know. And maybe you're more for them or more against them, but like it's the lying that bothers me. So I'd much rather have people just be totally straightforward about what their goals are. I'd love to see what's really in your heart. And I think we're seeing that much more than we did last month. And so for that reason, I'm glad we had the conversation, despite the fact, you know, they're attacking my family, like for real attacking my family, like for real. But we'll be fine. Pretty strong family, so I feel okay about that. And I feel bad for anyone around me who's been hurt by it.

2:11:28It certainly wasn't my intent. But I do think there's been a real upside, which is clarity. It's better. Like, by the way, the dumbness of these people. That's the other thing that, you know what I really learned is how dumb. One of the reasons that the status quo was bad was because a lot of decisions were being made in true secrecy. Like not only did you not know who made the decision, you couldn't know why and you were discouraged from talking about unformed policy questions. You just couldn't know. Shut up. Shut up, Nazi. Okay. The debate that we've had over the last month has risen to the surface a lot of things that were subterranean.

2:12:07And as I said, I think that's good. But one of the things we've learned is that the people who are really kind of running America's foreign policy, whether it's Lindsey Graham or whomever, these people are not geniuses at all. Like, they're dumb. They're dumb. They're just mediocre. Jeffrey Epstein is my favorite example. Because Jeffrey Epstein lived his life basically in the shadows, like, you couldn't really know where the money, you still don't know where the money came from, or, like, what's the goal of this? What is this? You can't know because it's all secret. Classified, national security, da-da-da-da-da.

2:12:39you start to assume that Jeffrey Epstein is this like Spengali and he's like he's a genius and he's controlling everything and then you read his emails he's like a fucking moron from Staten Island who can barely speak English he's like dumb he has no he's totally impressed by Harvard he went to Cooper Union he's impressed by Harvard because the brand name impresses him it's like wearing a polo shirt with a horse on he thinks that's cool he's totally unsophisticated actually and not smart at all. He's crafty. He's got high canine animal intelligence, but he's not a genius at all. He's a dummy. He's a thug.

2:13:19And that has been kind of amazing to see. His only real advantage is that he's evil. He'll do anything. He's got just no limits at all. Like, you need to kill someone? We'll do that. If we have to, we'll do that. And that person, the unscrupulous person, does have an advantage because there are no boundaries, right? So if your goal is to get rich or powerful, you can get there faster if you'll do anything to get there. Doesn't end well, ever. Didn't end well with him. But that's really what I learned, is that the people who are mad at me call me names because that's literally all they can do. Shut up!

2:14:00You can't speak at that event! We don't want you on stage. We're deplatforming you. Okay, I don't care, really, but like... Who's saying that to you? Oh, yeah, I mean, every... No, I mean, what do I mean? I don't even want to go through... I don't want to make it about me. I'm certainly not oppressed, and you haven't impressed my spirit. You could fucking shoot me, and you're not gonna impress my spirit. I mean, I'm just asking, because I still see you all over the place. I saw you... Of course. But I guess all I'm saying is... No, no, no, I haven't. I think you were just with Megyn Kelly and her tour and...

2:14:31Megyn Kelly is a tough woman, man. She's for real. And I mean, she's more for real than people know. I'm not saying she agrees to me on everything. She doesn't. And by the way, she doesn't agree with you. She's like, I don't agree with you. You know, she's like that tough. She'll just tell you. But she is... You can't make Megyn Kelly take a position. You just can't. She just won't. Megyn Kelly just absolutely will not. If she agrees, of course she'll agree. But if she doesn't agree, you're not going to scare her into agreeing. There aren't a ton of people like that. There are some, they're all my friends.

2:15:04Even if I disagree with them, I just love people like that and I want to be around them. She's one of them. No, but what's interesting is not that they've like... really inconvenienced me, they haven't. It's that they've revealed who they are. So like, once you... They did this with Fuentes. This is the thing I learned is that Fuentes, I didn't know much about him, to be honest. I'm just too old for this shit. It's not my generation, so I just didn't know. But Nick Fuentes first became known freshman year of college, like first month of college. He's a student at BU, and he puts something on the internet, Twitter or something, and basically like, why does Israel control our Congress?

2:15:45Something like that. He's a college freshman. And Ben Shapiro, sitting at like command center somewhere, He's like, what? A college student who's not on board with the program? Destroy him. And Ben Shapiro tries to, quote, cancel this kid. He's a fucking college student. He's a freshman from Chicago. Rather than just call the guy and be like, hey, actually, I saw what you said. I don't like it. But there are reasons that we're allied with Israel. And like, it really helps us. Or whatever. Make your case whatever your case is. His first instinct was, this man must be destroyed. He can never have a job in Con Inc.

2:16:22Like some, you know, no one can hire him. And how'd that work for you, Ben Shapiro? Well, of course, it didn't work at all. Nick Fuentes is way bigger than Ben Shapiro has ever been, way more influential than Ben Shapiro has ever been. You can't cancel an idea. It just does not work. Let's kill Jesus. Okay, how'd that work? World's biggest religion. It just doesn't work. And any wise person knows that. So the only way, liberals used to say this, they don't believe it apparently anymore, but the only way to stop bad ideas is by countering them with good ideas. You want to defeat lies? Tell the truth.

2:16:58It's literally that simple. And as if I needed to be reminded of that, the last month, I don't think a single person has ever made the case that I'm wrong, that Nick Fuentes is wrong. The Jew hatred stuff is wrong, period. And I said that, the white hatred, Black hatred, Jew hatred, Malaysian hatred, Bedouin hatred, it's all wrong. I believe that as much as I believe anything. Okay. But the rest of it, his analysis, which is actually smart, and in a lot of cases true, no one's even attempted to rebut it. 95 % or whatever the number is, if members of Congress take AIPAC money, how is that good?

2:17:37Shut up, Nazi! So if that's your only defense, you've lost. You've lost. You didn't even enter the game. We're playing different games. I'm trying to tell the truth, convince people that what I think is true is actually true. And you're trying to make me be quiet because you don't like it? You can shoot me, or you can shoot everybody, but it won't. It doesn't go away, because the truth is an immovable object. It just exists, and you conform to it or you don't, but it doesn't change, because it's nature. Why do you think you got so much shit for having him on? He's been on other stuff. He's been on...

2:18:16Well, I got shit precisely because I'm not an anti-Semite. That was the whole point. I mean, if David Duke or whatever, pick an anti -... I don't know, even though there are many... I'm sure there are famous anti-Semites. I can't think of it. But David Duke is a famous anti-Semite. If David Duke interviewed Nick Fuentes, they'd be like, you know, they wouldn't say anything. Whatever, who cares? They're talking to each other. But if someone who is openly opposed and sincerely opposed to hating people on the basis of their bloodline, which I definitely am, interviews Nick Fuentes and is like, hey, Nick Fuentes, stop with the Jew hatred, but let's talk about your views on the betrayal of Republican voters by conservative institutions and the undue influence a foreign country has over our government.

2:19:01Those are entirely reasonable conversations and they're scary because they are reasonable. They're very difficult to refute. You have to, like, what is, what's the counter argument? The country should be controlled by a of 9 million people? Like, what are you even saying?" No one agrees with that. So if a reasonable person says it, that is an actual threat. And they were like, well, must destroy him and his son and his brother. And it's like, I'm not afraid of you, man. I'm just not. And not because I'm so tough or brave or whatever, but because why would I be? You call me names and I'm gonna...

2:19:41You're not telling the truth and you know you're not. You start saying things about me that are true, that I'm trying to hide, whatever those might be, I'll get in fetal position and hide in the corner. But you throw lies at me? I'm totally unintimidated. And anyone who believes that, I'm sorry. I'll just say it again. Here's the truth. Don't believe I can't control that. So, yeah, that's why they don't like me. Not because I'm extraordinarily brave. I'm not. Definitely not because I'm extraordinarily smart. I'm not. But because they don't have an actual argument, so all they can do is destroy it.

2:20:21And I think they've reached kind of the limit, like, what's the next stage? That does concern me.

2:20:29Not that much, really. But we're moving into a new time, for sure. After the last month, and there are a number of fairly influential people on the right who've just basically said out loud, I'm for censorship and identity politics. We just had an election a year ago this month in which Republicans won because they were opposed to, let's say it, censorship and identity politics. And then their voters find out that a lot of the leaders of the party are totally for censorship and identity politics. How does this continue? Well, I'm out. I mean, I know that. But so are a lot of other people. Like, I'm not, would never vote.

2:21:06I don't care what you call yourself. If you're for censorship and identity politics, two things that I truly, on principle as a Christian, oppose, I'm not voting for you. Period. Ever. So that's like a big, big change. Like the veil has dropped. We can see like you're walking back from the shower and your towel slipped and I saw what you look like naked. I can't unsee that. Right? Has that ever happened to you? Mm-hmm. You see what someone looks like naked, and you're like, I want this out of my head. I don't want to know. I saw your appendix scar! It's like... Oh, man. Right? So I don't, I mean, I don't know.

2:21:51I never know anything that's coming. You know, I can't, you can't. It's always something different from what you thought. But as of right now, I think it's like November, probably. It's before Thanksgiving right now. I know for certain that we're in for big, big, big, big changes because just like fighting with your wife and you say something awful but true, things are never the same. What is it about him that... What is Gen Z or what are the younger generation? What's the draw? What's the draw to Fuente? Well, he's unusually articulate, self-confident, clear. He's a clear talker. I don't agree.

2:22:37I mean, he's 27, so, you know, not to be arrogant or be like, young man, you don't know, but, you know, hanging around a long time gives you, I think, a fuller perspective, and he hasn't. So, like, there are things I disagree with, conclusions he draws that I think are not true. But in general, the guy is highly articulate, totally fearless, doesn't care at all. That's always a draw. Like, the man who just doesn't care, he's just gonna say it, always has a big audience because people are attracted to strength. Period. Every time. What's strength? It's fearlessness. I'm not afraid. That's how, you know, that's how the Vikings pick their leaders.

2:23:16Who's the least afraid? Of course, human beings are like that. They'll never stop being like that. So, only in the... Only in our world are there other... Do you put like terrified menopausal women in charge? Normal studies don't do that. We're not gonna do that in 20 years. But Nick Fuentes is just a reminder that people follow fearlessness because they read it as strength. We should not be surprised. Why are they open to it? Why are they not watching the approved? Why are they not watching Fox News and some Sean Hannity? What does Sean Hannity think? They don't know who Sean Hannity is. Why?

2:23:51Why are they open to this? Well, changing technology is one of the things, one of the reasons. They don't watch TV. They don't have cable subs. But the main reason is because they've been completely betrayed. Nick Fuentes is absolutely right. They've been screwed. They can't find jobs. The average age of a first-time home buyer in the United States is almost 40. 40 years old. It's a disaster. That's like collapse. And they've been blamed for it. And people have been hating on them their whole lives for being white and being male. Toxic masculinity and white racism are the twin perils we face. those that's passive aggression that's hate posing as concern if you tell white men that the biggest problems are toxic masculinity and white racism what you're really saying is you're the biggest problem we hate you and everything our leaders have done has proven that they hate young white men everything from the drugs they prescribe to the fake conditions like adhd that they make up out of thin air in order to anesthetize boys.

2:24:54Everything about it, it is an organized conspiracy, conscious or not. It's effectively a conspiracy. I don't need to know whether you planned it to know it was a conspiracy. You did this and you achieved this result. That's all I need to know. And they did it. And young men know it. They know it. And why wouldn't they be mad? I'm mad just thinking about it. And I'm 50, I'm fucking old. I am 56. So I'm like, I'm 30 years older than Nick Fuentes, and I, because I care about America and care about people in general and hate to see mistreatment and cruelty of the weak, I'm outraged by that. Just on principle, I hate that.

2:25:32It's exactly what I hate. Pissing on weak people. That's why I hated using fire hoses on protesters in Birmingham in 1956, and it's why I hate the toxic masculinity, white racism lie of 2021. It's all the same. And so I am sympathetic to that because it's true. It's provably true. And so my feeling was, I'm going to immediately say, I'm totally against Jew hatred. It's anti-Christian. And I said that. And he's like, you're right. Okay. Now tell me what you think. Again, my conscience is clear. I'm glad I did that interview.

2:26:13Have you guys spoken since then? No. No? No. No, and I... And he... Someone, a reporter, just texted me from some New York Times or Politico and said that he's starting a PAC, a political action committee, in the next political cycle, 2026, to hold politicians accountable. I've never... That's the first I've heard of it. I know nothing about it. I'm not involved in politics on that level. but, and I don't know if that's good or bad, but in general, I think it's very good, in fact, necessary to force leaders to do what they say they're going to do. Otherwise, come on, dude, we're moving toward one of two endpoints.

2:27:01One is a totalitarian society where you just don't have the option of disagreeing. You have to obey because you've got programmable digital currency and universal surveillance, and you just have to do what they say, or they'll starve you to death. It's not going to work here. I hope it does. I pray it doesn't. It's not going to work. Or we're going to have a revolution. It's one of the two. We're getting totalitarian government and a revolution. It's going to work for a little bit, and then it's not going to work. I pray you're right. I'm a gold buyer on that basis, an ammo buyer. But again, I have no track record of seeing the future, but I'm convinced that the current course won't work because it's a lie.

2:27:38If you tell people they own the government, they're in charge, they rule through the representatives in this democratic republic, that's what we've told, that's our system. Has been for 250 years. If you tell them that's the system and you don't deliver on it, they go crazy. They go totally crazy. If you tell them, by the way, I've spent a lot of time in... What do you think happens when a government takes everybody's currency in a country that has more fucking guns and ammunition than anywhere else in the entire world?

2:28:10I mean, I'm, as I've said a million times... It works for a little bit. And then when the desperation kicks in, that shit doesn't fucking work anymore. Well, so that's exactly, we're saying the same thing. It's we're moving toward totalitarianism or revolution, violent revolution. By the way, if you tell people they can't say what they think and their vote doesn't matter, how many options have you left for them? Just one. Violence. Not very fucking many. That's right. So don't do that. Don't do that. It's much better to give a little. And you do this with your kids, especially when they become teenagers.

2:28:44You reach a point where it's like, hmm, you can smell the defiance on them. How do I handle this? Just punch them in the face? Cut them off? Starve them out? No? You know, you listen. You make it clear that you're in charge. You'll be deciding. But you take their position into consideration because you have to because they're becoming adults. You have to be a little flexible. No, you can't smoke weed at the breakfast table. There's something you will never accept. But you can't ignore every single signal you're getting from your children. Well, your population's very similar. I'm getting really angry right now.

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2:31:00Thank you.

2:31:30All right, Tucker, we're back from the break. Nice shot, by the way. And we figured out how to run an excavator about 50%. I was standing in the back. I'm like, you can't start that without a key. And you did. But, oh, man, where were we? It got pretty deep there. Well, I was musing, as is my habit. and you said, this is so fucking dark, I have to get out of here and shoot a firearm. That's where we were. The hair on the back of my neck was starting to... I just wanted to... Yeah. I just wanted to reset my thing. Can I just restate? I feel totally cheerful. Because once you see things in their full perspective, it's not scary.

2:32:12It's exactly what we were told. We just didn't believe it. And now that we do believe it, it's great. It's fine, actually. Yeah, that's... That's... I'm not there yet. But maybe one day. Oh, for sure. Where do we go from here? So... Well, it's always darkest before it's completely black, as you know. Sorry, I'm stealing someone else's line, but I do like that line. I don't know. I mean, clearly we're... I mean, just in political terms, we're at the end of something and the beginning of something new. And no one wants change. I don't. But we're not in control. and the current system clearly doesn't match the moment at all.

2:32:55And so it's changing. And it'll change along probably predictable lines, but also in some unpredictable ways. But I'm for democracy. Most people are not. The overall majority of people don't want democracy. They just don't want it. They don't like it. It's tedious and annoying and too imperfect, and they want results. And so we're moving towards something that is not what we had before. And, you know, I'm not in favor of that. I wish we could return to 1985, but we can't, so...

2:33:29But you have to just reduce the amount of lying. Like, lying is bad. Lying is bad. It alienates you from other people. It alienates their leaders from their... people they lead. Everything about it is bad. Just no more... Let's just stop lying. That'd be great. I don't know how the fuck you're gonna get anybody to stop lying. By calling out the liars. But, well, yeah. Yeah. You know, we were talking about impact earlier and, you know, one of the things that I want to chat with you about, I don't know how to bring it up organically, so I'm just fucking bringing it up. This is something that it's just, it's the most important issue to me.

2:34:05And that is sex trafficking, sex exploitation, and all that shit that is going on in this country. And, you know, I think it was, I can't remember if I was telling you about my really good friend Ryan Montgomery on camera, off camera, whatever. But that, you know, I talked about all the impact that we thought we would have that we didn't fucking do anything on. But that is one that it's like it seems to be the forbidden topic that everybody's fucking scared to talk about, legitimately scared to talk about, except for a few. And that's, you know, the problem with sex trafficking and sex exploitation in this fucking country.

2:34:48And as far as an impact, I think that is the biggest impact that I've ever made and probably ever will make. because what we did with Ryan was, I mean, he made it. You hear about this stuff all the time, right? And it's hard to believe how prevalent it actually is. And he proved it on the show. I had him open his laptop and I said, just get in any. I don't care what it is. I just want to see how long this takes. I'll sit here for two days if I have to, five seconds. And I had him screen record it so that we could prove it. and so i just had him anyways the impact that was made i think i know for a fact we scared the shit out of a lot of pedophiles we educated a ton of i mean the interview has 10 million views and then with the clips and everything else it's hundreds of millions of views and we educated on parents on how predators are targeting their kids.

2:35:53We educated kids on how predators are targeting them. And so anyways, I think it was a huge win for kids. And so I brought him back on last week. He's releasing this week. But he came on to talk about this satanic cult 764. Have you heard of this? No. Holy shit, dude. Like, so this is an online cult, and they hang out in, you know, online. They hang out, and there's a game that all the kids are playing nowadays called Roblox. Sounds like Roblox, but people know what I'm talking about. Roblox. And Minecraft. And they're fucking everywhere. They're on Xbox, they're on PlayStation, they're on computer games, they're on chat rooms, they're on social media, they're on everything.

2:36:49And what they do is they target primarily young women, you know, teenage women and below, girls. And, you know, they might, you know, have them do something for a Louis, sexually exploit them for a fucking Louis Vuitton purse or something like that. and then you know then they have the photos and then they they they keep in touch and they call them back with these groups of people with the photos and say they're going to release this and they're having these girls carve slut into their arms with razor blades they've had people they have gone so far now and this is this is spreading like wildfire they had one girl swallow the razor blades after she carved slut into her flesh.

2:37:40And they had another girl kill herself. And, you know, that's what I want to go after now. Because there's an impact that you can have where you don't have to wait on some political prostitute to introduce a fucking bill into Congress or the Senate. and you're actually going to save somebody's fucking life or save somebody from being sexually exploited or trafficked or, you know, all of the above. But, man, that stuff's like, it's just so alarming and so disgusting. And are you tracking any of this shit? Well, yeah. I mean, there's, I would just, yeah, yes. And I just had an interview, which hasn't aired yet, but with your friend John Rich, about this topic this week.

2:38:42We went pheasant hunting together in South Dakota and did it there, and talked a lot about it for three days. I would just say two things. One, I don't think, and what you just told me confirms, gives further evidence to what I believe, which is sex trafficking is not primarily about sex. It's about defiling innocence. Sex is hot girl, want to sleep with her. This is not that. This is... and child molestation and all these... carving slut, having a girl carve slut into her arm, what's the benefit to you? Well, there's none. What you're doing is defiling innocence. It's destroying beauty. It's making ugly something pure.

2:39:35It's pissing out an image of God is actually what it is. So it's by its nature demonic. That's what demonic is. So this is a spiritual phenomenon, I think that. I've always thought that. Like, what is that? As someone who likes sex and thinks women are beautiful and everything, what is this? It's not about that. It's about destroying something innocent. So that makes it the most evil thing that there is. and I couldn't agree with you more, I also think it's way more widespread even than you described, it's called OnlyFans. And I don't know why the guy who runs OnlyFans is not in prison, like right now.

2:40:09Because he's a massive contributor to all kinds of different left-wing causes. But, so there's that. But, you know, if you're turning, like, a huge percentage of America's young women into prostitutes, you're a criminal. And punishing you and stopping that is like top of our priority list because you can't degrade my country and turn my women into prostitutes. Like, that cannot be allowed. It's not. There's no human right that says you can pimp a nation's women, young women. No. Take advantage of their misery and confusion and desperation and poverty to turn them into prostitutes. That's what an invading army does.

2:40:51So I'm... Of course, I couldn't be more opposed to all of it, pornography, all of it. Like, I'm violently opposed to it. I guess I would just, my only concern is that we imagine a self-described satanic cult. I'm actually way less bothered by satanic cults than I am by OnlyFans, which is also a satanic cult, because at least the official satanic cults call themselves what they are. It's like nice to have the opponent identify himself. But like, what does you porn call itself? Adult entertainment? No. I mean, what? It's the same thing. And the point is the same. It's to destroy our civilization, and it's working.

2:41:32And people, because that's what a civilization is, is a collection of people. So yeah, I'm really upset about it. And I think we should... And by the way, a lot of our leaders and institutions take money from these groups, like the ones that are legitimate. There's nothing more legitimate about OnlyFans and there is about a satanic cult that lures girls online into carving slut into their arms or swallowing razor blades. It's the same thing. What do you think the Republican Party is gonna turn into after this? I don't know. I mean, of course, you know, it's the party in power right now. It's an amazing amount of power and amount of money, and there's a lot at stake.

2:42:12I mean, we shouldn't underestimate just how powerful a political party is. You can be against political parties, but they run America. So, okay, there's that. So maybe you shouldn't ignore them. Maybe you should engage. I don't want to because I dislike them too much and I dislike the people, but I'm glad that there are some people fighting for the soul of the party, whatever that means. Well, I know what it means. It means restating out loud why we're here. And we're here to make the country better for the people who live in it. Not for a foreign country, whatever that country is, and not for your donors, but for most people or everybody, kind of, try at least a little bit.

2:42:47And that is the argument right now. Does the Republican Party exist to help its voters, every voter, actually, every citizen, or does it exist for some other boutique corrupt reason like serving a foreign government, serving your donors? And I do think that's the argument. I think that's the argument that Trump started when he ran in 2015. It was not about make America great again, which everyone is for, who wouldn't be for that. It's about America first, which is the idea behind MAGA. America first, just put your country first. If you're its leader, you don't have to put America first. You're just a citizen.

2:43:23But if you're running the country, you have a moral obligation to put its citizens before all others. It's not a controversial idea. It's the only idea. But there are an awful lot of Republican leaders. Every Republican voter pretty much agrees with that. But Republican leaders are, and not just elected leaders, but though certainly them, but like the whole constellation of nonprofits and publications and we're conservative and like, okay, you can call yourself whatever you want, but what does that mean? And now we're getting to the definitional part of the argument. What are you talking about?

2:43:57Make America great again. How? What are your priorities? Shut up! And they're screaming because they've been exposed as liars. And everybody knows they're liars. And by the way, that's the Fuentes. That's the actual Fuentes message. I'm not an expert on Fuentes. I interviewed him. But from what I could tell, he is angry because he feels that the conservative establishment, You know, Ben Shapiro all the way up to some idiot Republican senator. All of them are telling the same lie. We're on your side, but they're not. There's nothing more legitimate than that. That is true. I would know. I've been involved for 40 years.

2:44:39I know every single person. That's true. They're correct. They don't care that much or enough or at all about you. And they have an obligation to. So that's the debate underway. And everyone on the other side would love to make it about, why do you hate the Jews? Well, I don't hate the Jews. It's not about the Jews, whatever that is. It's about the country. And so I'm fervently hoping that the America First people win. I fervently am hoping. I think they will. Have you ever been around Republican donors? Have I been around Republican donors? We probably never met a Republican donor. Oh, I'm sure I have, but I don't know.

2:45:20I mean. They're not all bad, some nice people, but in general. If Trump voters knew who was paying for everything, they'd be like, wait, I have nothing in common with you at all. And now I think they're starting to figure that out. Oh, it sure seems like that. I mean, what do you think? You know, the Gen Zers are definitely not responding to the traditional bullshit. bullshit. I mean, you had mentioned that they're, you know, that Nick Fuentes is, they are gravitating towards that. Then you got, you know, the other side, Memdani, you know, just one mayor of New York. I mean, what, what, in your mind, what do you think 10, 20 years from now, what does it look like?

2:46:06I mean, look, Does it look the same? I feel weird speaking for people 30 years younger than me or more. What do I know? But I have actually made an intensive, longitudinal, good faith effort to find out because I matter. Plus, I've got a ton of kids in that age range. And my impression right now is that, of course, they're enraged. Both sides are enraged by people serving Israel. What? Stop with the Israels. Be quiet. Nobody cares about Israel. Just shut up about Israel. But I don't think it's primarily about Israel. I really don't. I don't think people care that much I know I don't care at all about Israel.

2:46:45I really think it's about economics. I really do. I think that's what Mamdani and Fuentes have in common. And there are a bunch of people who want to pretend it's about ethnic hate or even about foreign policy. I don't believe that. I don't think the evidence shows that. I think what they're really mad about is the lack of opportunity, economic opportunity, that they know they're facing. And then if you look at the debt loads, That's what I look at. Like, how much debt does the average 30-year-old have, and who does he owe it to? And it's overwhelming. It's, like, unbelievable. I had 10 grand on a credit card once.

2:47:22I mean, I literally couldn't sleep over it, because that was weird. You know, 25 years ago, 10 grand. I just didn't make enough money. I had to get another job. It was fine. But debt is a huge, debt is the problem for young people. And what's so infuriating and alienating is that both parties are completely on the side of the lenders and not the debtors. And in fact, it's a symbiotic relationship. There is no borrowing without lending and vice versa. They are engaged in this dance, and ultimately, one is basically exploiting the other. That's just a fact. And no one will acknowledge that. So the Democratic Party is like, well, everyone has too much student loan debt.

2:48:07Who's benefiting from student loan? Well, the student loan lenders are benefiting, of course. But so are the colleges. They're being subsidized for garbage. It's garbage, right? They're getting rich from these student loans. The colleges are. And they're administrators. And then so are the lenders. But the Democrats are like, well, so because of this, we're going to get rid of student loan debt, but taxpayers are going to pay for it. Really? So you spend your life trying to pay your kids' college tuition. It gets super expensive because the lenders and the colleges are getting rich, and then you have to pay for other people's college?

2:48:40Like, what? And the Republicans are just like, shut up. Pay your debts. It's your fault. Which is partly true. You accrue a lot of debt. You shouldn't have. On the other hand, it's not just you at fault. So here's the analogy that always occurs to me that I never hear anyone use, which is drug addiction. So you've got the drug addict, and we disapprove of drug addiction. Of course we do. Fucking drug addict. But ultimately, we don't punish the drug addict as harshly as we punish the person who sells in the drugs, do we? Who's worse, the addict or the dealer? Obviously the dealer. Look at the penalties.

2:49:15Look at the moral outrage. Are we matter at Pablo Escobar or some guy dying of a drug OD in Central Park? It's not even close. Pablo Escobar is the root of the problem. He's the one getting rich from the addict's misery. Well, I have no idea why we don't assume the same posture toward debt. Yeah. The kid shouldn't be 50 grand in hock to a credit card company, but what about the credit card company? They have no role in this? They sent this kid a credit card offer in college when he's 23? They're letting and buy DoorDash on credit, which is very common now. Buy now, pay later, that's debt. It's disguised, no interest, but there are late fees.

2:49:55It's debt, and it's debt slavery, and they're enslaved by it. But the slave master never gets blamed, only the slave? Tell me how that works. That is totally illegitimate. It's immoral, and it's on us as adults. I mean, I have no debt. That's rule one, no debt. I won't buy. I can't afford it. I'm not buying that. Not because I'm a virtuous person, because I'm so afraid of debt, because I know that it means no freedom. I'm indebted. I'm literally indebted. I'm not free. And no one ever says that. Anyone who says it is like, shut up, socialist. But even the socialists aren't saying it. That's what blows my freaking mind.

2:50:29That's when you know it is a real conspiracy. You talk to the DSA kids. Oh, I'm so radical. I'm a DSA. Whites are bad. I'm pro-trans. That's not radical, Dude, that's just fucking stupid. You want to challenge power? Why don't you criticize the banks once in a while? What? All they want to talk about is race and gender. Where's the real power? In white supremacy when whites are dying off? It's not a white supremacy, son. It's at Citibank and JP Morgan. You didn't know that? They themselves are tools of actual power, left and right. The right is way off into libertarian economics. It's the free market.

2:51:05There isn't a free market in this country? Period. Hasn't been in my lifetime for sure. There definitely isn't. Now it's a monopoly economy, obviously. And then the left is way up and all this other garbage meant to divide the population against itself to keep them from challenging actual power. And I'm not for revolution, but we're going to get a revolution if we don't readjust a little bit soon. So I would say let's hold lenders at least as accountable as we hold debtors, because that's fair and obvious. And in fact, I think lenders are way more culpable than borrowers. And let's take a good look at the interest rates.

2:51:42No society has ever allowed usury at the scale that we do. Oh, shut up. You can't talk about usury. Why? Because you're benefiting from it? Fuck you. I'm not afraid of you. Like, are you? No. What's the top rate for a payday loan in the United States? I'll tell you, it's 600 % annually. 600%. Are you serious? That's illegal. Yes. Holy shit. And why don't we care? because it's just black people. It's the ghetto or, you know, it's poor people. It's not just black people. Of course, it's literally not. But in your mind, you're like, oh, that's pathetic, a payday loan. Okay, but that's a human being.

2:52:15That's a fellow citizen and we don't care at all. 600 % annual interest. That's a desperate human being. Why is that allowed? Why is it so hard to say, how about no? The same reason you can't make my daughter into a prostitute, OnlyFans, because it's disgusting. And if we can't say it's disgusting, at the very least, before we even say it's illegal, how about it's just bad? Then we've lost the most basic defense mechanism that allows any society to continue. You have to be able to say, no, that's too big a threat to us. No, Satanism is not the same as Christianity. You can't have a Satanist, you know, crash in the state capitol or whatever they call it, shrine to Satan.

2:52:54We're not doing that because that's self-destruction. That's suicide disguised as freedom. So anyway, we just lost the ability to recognize the true threats to ourselves and our children and our grandchildren and our nation. And one of the greatest threats, maybe you could argue it, but definitely one of the greatest threats is debt. And people are getting rich from debt. I know them personally, and so do you. We call it finance. That's the name of it, finance. What does finance mean? Loading money to people at interest. There's a place for that. I don't think that it's inherently evil to loan money to people.

2:53:28I've loaned money to a million people personally. I never get it back, but whatever. Anyway, the point is it's not inherently evil, but the details matter. At what rate? Who are you loaning it to? What are the terms? There has to be some boundary or else it's just pure exploitation of your fellow human beings, your fellow citizens. And rather than rein it in, we celebrate the people who do it And we wind up with the entire economy is based on what? Finance and real estate. And neither one is a productive industry. One is loaning money and interest and the other is just reselling dirt. Okay, that is not going to last.

2:54:05That's not... And then tech. You know, I complain about tech a lot. I don't... You know, I'm worried about the implications of emerging technologies. You know, obviously, I've talked about a lot. But the idea of tech, building something new, creating something, of course, that's what we're supposed to do as people, make something new. So that's like inherently more legitimate. Real estate and finance are components of a healthy economy. If you find that they are the economy, you're going to get what you deserve, dude. And nobody is saying that. I don't know why. Well, I do know why, because the real estate and finance lobbies are way more powerful than the normal person lobby, which doesn't exist.

2:54:45But young people, anyway, I'm far afield, but the point is young people are being destroyed economically. And they have no opportunity. They're being disrespected and lectured and given a whole pharmacopoeia of every kind of drug to keep them passive so they don't foment a revolution, so they stay in their little cages, which is sinister. It's lethal. It's homicidal, actually. It kills the spirit at the very least, but not just that. They can't own anything. And the idea that you're going to roll out with a straight face a 50-year mortgage, which is literally the opposite of what we need, who benefits from a 50-year mortgage?

2:55:32Well, the guy collecting 50 years of interest. Who loses in that deal? The guy who doesn't own his house. He's a renter for 50 years. I don't know, man. I'm probably way off because everybody I respect thinks that that is a fucking horrible idea. 50-year mortgage? I think it's a good idea. How? Because I don't know anybody that has held onto their home for 30 years and paid it all down. I think that this county, for example, real estate prices have gone through the fucking roof. A lot of people can't afford to live here anymore. I think that you can build wealth through real estate. I think you could use the 50-year mortgage to get yourself into a market that's appreciating at a rapid pace, start to build your wealth, sell that, take the equity with you, and build it that way.

2:56:26There's no question you could do that. And I, that's, but that's just how I, I think. And so I think it's a good, I think it's a good thing that 50 year mortgages are here because it gets, it gets the payment down. It gets people to be able to afford a home. Yeah. If they pay it for 50 years, they're going to lose their fucking ass. But if they play their cards right and they actually study, you know, and they, if they play their cards, right, then they can get in, they can gain the equity. They'll gain a lot more equity in certain markets than they will pay an interest. And then they can get the and roll that into something else that's actually affordable.

2:57:00There's absolutely no question that people can parlay credit into real money. There's no doubt about that. And I know a million people who've done it, and every real estate investor does that. That's what they do. And they're good at it. I would just say two things that make me concerned, very concerned about it. One is that's a very sophisticated game, actually. it is to be, you know, to take leverage and turn it into actual wealth. Like, you've got to know what you're doing. It's beyond my reach mentally. I'm not smart enough to do that. I'd be afraid to play with that. A. B, I think the value of a home is the ownership of it.

2:57:46Like, that's why it's better than renting because of the psychological rewards and because it reorients your thinking. toward permanence. And like, I own a piece of this. Like, owning a piece of dirt is just psychologically a completely different experience than not owning it. It vests you in the country. You have something to defend. This is mine. It's not much, but I own it. You can't take it away from me, and I will take a stand on its behalf, OK? And I know in my own life, I didn't own a home, actually own a home. I bought a house at like 24, 23, 24, because it was a different world. Bought a super cheap house on credit with a mortgage.

2:58:31And I've owned houses ever since then, so like a long time, over 35 years. But I didn't actually own a house until I was like in my late 40s, and I decided to deal with Fox. And I was like, I'm going to pay off the mortgage. And I called my smartest friend, who's like, that's so stupid. You know the tax advantages in mortgage interest? Of course, I knew that because I had a mortgage my whole life. And I was like, I don't care. He said, you're going to lose$50 ,000 a year just by owning it. And I was like, so that means the system is set up to penalize me for not being in debt? I have to pay for the privilege of not being in debt to a bank?

2:59:08Who's writing these laws? The banks. But I did it anyway because I'm a lunatic. And I'm like, I don't care. All I care about is the psychological benefit. And the psychological benefit was so much more profound than I ever anticipated to owning the house. Even though I still had steep property taxes, you don't own anything in this country because you always owe somebody something. And if you stop paying them, they take it away from you. So that's not actual ownership. But it was a lot closer to ownership. And, oh, my gosh. I was just like, that's when I really went crazy when I owned it. I was like, come and take it, bitch.

2:59:42I'd pay 50 grand just for the peace of mind. Oh, 100%. And not just the peace of mind, but like the swelling of power, I felt like. Not even an impressive house, really, but I was like, this is my house. I don't take any, I don't pay anybody. Of course, I was paying frilliance in property taxes to the stupid, corrupt D.C. government. So it was kind of a fake, it was a facade, but it was still real to me. I just feel like getting out of debt was the biggest psychological change that ever happened to me, really. it's like i'm my own man i own my house maybe i think small okay that's why i'm not in business but it made a big difference it was it was that's when i started like telling the truth so much they fired me i paid off my mortgage it's like yeah i have no mortgage what are you gonna do about it fire me yeah i don't know yeah i don't know i just i i don't think it's the best answer the 50-year mortgage, I would rather them just lower the fucking interest rates.

3:00:47What if the bottom drops out the real estate markets? I mean, I think long-term real estate, I mean, obviously, that's all I do is, you know, I like real estate, so I buy real estate. But, you know, it's cyclical. So, like, there are times when, you know, it just happened to me, actually, on something. But anyway, in the last year, yeah, the value goes down sometimes. It's not just up. So, like, if you've got a 50-year note, like, I don't know, you could be more underwater than we already are. Definitely could be. Yeah. I mean, that's happened. I didn't have to sell, but I mean, I've definitely owned houses where I owed more than the houses were.

3:01:30Not a great feeling. You don't really feel like this is an ownership society when you couldn't sell the house for the amount that you owe on it. Yeah. Yeah. Feels sort of precarious, though I will say it does drive you to work harder. That's for damn sure. What do you got coming up, Tucker? I know we got to wrap it up soon because you got a dinner. Man, I talked too much. Are you coming up? I don't know. You know, some kind of meeting with destiny. How's your new documentary? Meeting with destiny. Well, we just did a documentary on Thomas Crooks, which I thought was really, really interesting and very unsatisfactory in the responses we got from the FBI.

3:02:13So I'm really concerned about the FBI. I'll just say that. Very concerned. I don't understand exactly what's going on, but... I don't think anybody understands. It's concerning, and I know people who work there, and I've spoken to them, and I'm not against them, but, like, what is this? And I can't get an answer. I feel the way about a number of FBI investigations in progress. Like, I don't know what this is, and I'm definitely unsettled by it a lot. I hope, you know, I hope I find out, and I hope everything's okay, but I'm worried about that. And we're doing it. We just commissioned another documentary.

3:02:49I had... We did documentaries at Fox, and so... I worked with documentary guys who specialize in making documentaries, one of whom lives here in Nashville. who worked for me for years, and we just hired him again to make documentaries. So I know a lot of people in that world that made a million documentaries, and I love the form. I thought it was going away. I thought no one would ever watch another documentary. Dude, are you serious? I know. Well, what do I know? I mean, I've not been good at calling changes in media. I thought the podcast was the dumbest thing I ever heard. I told Rogan to his face.

3:03:18I was like, I did not think this would work, dude. Four hours of talking? Like, who would watch that? The whole world? So, anyway, I personally thought that documentaries were a dying art. My father made a million documentaries. I have them on film cans in my barn. So they've been around a long time, and I love making them and writing them and voicing them, and I just love the whole experience. So we are doing a ton of documentaries. We're doing a multi-part documentary on the FBI and some... Is that the next one coming out? No. A bunch of different parts. I just commissioned it really yesterday.

3:04:00Oh, man, that's gonna be a good one. I think it's gonna be good. Not to brag, but the documentaries are the product of... I decided what we're doing documentaries about, obviously. I'm involved in documentaries, but if I'm being honest... And the Crooks thing, I got that material on Crooks myself and brought that to our guys. But really, we have a couple people, a guy called Charles Cougar, Scooter Downey. I mean, these guys are like, I could never do what they do. They're so freaking good. It's incredible. And Charlie Cougar, especially, is like one of the most talented people I've ever, who I've worked with for 10 years at least, is one of the smartest people I've ever met, way smarter than I am.

3:04:43So it's such a thrill to watch that. Do you pick the subject, Matt? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. I pick the subject. And I used to write the documentaries. Like, when I was at Fox, I always wrote the documentary. I'm a writer, so I wrote all the documentaries. But he's so good that the Crooks documentary, which we just did, and I voiced it. You know, I do the voiceover and sit in my barn. We have a family library in our barn. I sit in the library and voice it. And he brought it to me. We had talked a lot about it, and I brought him the material, and then he followed up on it. But he basically did the whole thing, and he wrote the whole thing.

3:05:18and it was better than I could have done. And I ad-libbed like eight words that I changed. But I mean, I read it cold. That's how good he is. So I just want to say that out loud, man. This guy, I say kid, he's not a kid anymore. He's a father. But it's just incredible to watch people. I always thought he was smart, obviously. But he's just become a true force. I don't think his name is known by anybody. Probably doesn't want it known. I probably shouldn't have said his name, but he's an amazing person. So, and so is Scooter Downing, this other guy. So, and a wonderful guy too. So, yeah, I'm super psyched.

3:05:55It's nice, I will say one thing about getting older, the bad part's taking a leak in the middle of the night, but the good part is, you end up knowing who the good people are. Like I've worked at every network, you show up at these networks and it's like, you have all this big staff, you have no idea who's honest, who's a liar, who's talented, who's not, who cares, who doesn't. Like you just don't know anything. And then after a while, over years, and move from this place to that place. Like, you really identify some of the most impressive people in the world. It's just absolutely crazy. Like, the people we have working for us now, every single person I would have stay at my house, and most of them have, and every single person I would trust with my checking account.

3:06:33I mean, there's every single person I believe. Every single person is a good person. It's just incredible. I hope this moment for our company, Z, companies, I hope it never changes. because I just love everyone. We've had so much drama over all these years, and now we're still at a place where, like, everyone is great. Well, I'm happy for you, man. Oh, dude, it's the best. Good for you. Good for you. Well, thank you for having me. Sorry I talked so long, and thank you for your guns. Can we just say one last thing as a coda? The.357 lever gun is the greatest gun ever. I mean, probably not if you're fighting in Afghanistan, But if you're, you know, shooting steel or bowling pins in your backyard, there is no more fun gun than a.357, or I shoot.38 out of mine because I'm cheap.

3:07:23That is just the greatest gun. No recoil, dead nuts accurate, fun to shoot, cheap ammo. It's real. It's not a.22. It's like a thump. Like, everything about it. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Oh, fuck yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. Next time you come, we'll have some fly rods and hopefully some fish in that damn pond. Catch a largemouth on a fly rod, and if you think that fly fishing is like some faggiest feet sport with your little hatches and your number 18 midges. I love fly fishing. Oh, dude! Throw a popper across a farm pond and a largemouth hits it, or even better, a smallmouth. It's like, wah!

3:08:04Yeah. Well, Tucker, thanks again, man. It's always good to see you. God bless. God bless.

3:08:39us a review on Apple and Spotify podcasts.