#329 Justin DeLoretto - Ex-Mongols President Reveals What Really Happens Inside a 1% Club

22:20Because before I was just like the jock, right? I loved basketball and sports. And, you know, everyone was kind of getting into the skater crowd scene and those things. And I started first getting involved in listening to punk rock and just trying to figure things out. And that's when, like, I started getting in trouble for fighting. My twin brother used to, he'd been in trouble for fighting since, like, the third grade or fourth grade. But in the junior high, he was getting suspended for fighting. We were getting in trouble for stuff like that. And then... You both were? Yeah. He was getting in trouble more than I was.

22:51He was fighting more than I was back then. We kind of switched roles later on. What were you guys fighting about? Just high school or junior high school stuff. Probably nothing. Just ego or, you know, we were the new kids. Would you consider yourself a troublemaker? Then, yeah. Yeah? For sure. I mean, I wouldn't. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, we were troublemakers. But like I said, our family was supportive, but there was always consequences. It's like when my brother got suspended in the seventh grade, my dad was going to put in a septic tank and he decided he wasn't going to order the backhoe.

23:24He was going to make my brother dig the ditch because he was suspended. So my brother dug this huge hole for the septic tank and then my dad goes, fill it back in and I'm going to put it over here. So there was consequences for it. It wasn't like the family was turning a blind eye. I mean, they were doing what they could. We were probably the first pain in the asses under the last name of that group. And so there was this struggle to try and keep us, get us back in line, get us back on track. What were you guys getting into? Well, early on, once I got in the punk rock stuff, and then once I got, yeah, seventh to eighth grade, it still was just the basic high school, hallway fights and stuff.

24:05But when I went to, I went back to high school. So my parents had separated us, like I was saying, for schools. And so he was going to the country school for wrestling. and then I was at like back in the city and my freshman year I was into this punk rock band the dead Kennedys and the back of my shirt said Nazi punks fuck off and um at this time in that that area there was this white power skinhead group called Volksfront that was getting very large and most of them were either seniors or I graduated but they would still hang around on campus and so I got beat up my first day at school for having this they kept calling me a sharp which I didn't know what it meant because pre-internet where you can't just type stuff in and look it up, you know?

24:40But essentially it was because I was anti-racist, you know, I got beat up over it. And so I shifted, that was a big moment for me. Cause then I was like, well, I'm going to get picked on and bullied for this. I want to know what it is. And I really started looking into that skinhead movement and the traditional roots of it and the anti-racism part of it. So I started slowly starting to dress that way. And so now I'm having this like conflicts with these guys often. And it just continued all through high school. And it, it escalated to point where in my mind i was doing some social justice work right like i'm anti-racist but in reality it was pretty much just doing gang stuff it was us versus them um so i was getting in a lot of you know there was fights um thankfully at that era there wasn't quite shootings and stuff yet but i mean you know people were getting stabbed or hit with bottles i mean it was escalating escalating pretty quickly how old are you i was in high school so i got my first felony at 16 for for assault and then i got a felony again at 18 for assault so it was that was just kind of like our lifestyle was fighting.

25:34Let's back up a little bit. Yeah. So hold on. So you, you switch schools, you're going to a city school. There's a skinhead gang, a bunch of racists. You're an anti-racist. Right. So did you start a gang? Eventually. Yeah. So there were, so the term sharp stands for skinheads against racial prejudice. And it's, it was like back in those days, it was like an organization or almost a gang. and I never quite aligned with that. I was anti-racist, but I never like claimed it, right? But I eventually, you know, I'm dressed in a certain way and it would attract other people that are into stuff like that.

26:09So I found this other dude that was into that stuff. And then some of the buddies on the wrestling team liked the music and the fashion of it. So they wanted, so the next thing you know, there was a few of us. And yeah, we banded together initially with the goal to defend ourselves and fight back against these Nazis. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed. And so then a couple of years later, we moved to Portland. Let me join the bigger gang. And then it just kind of kept progressing. So hold on. Let's 16. You get arrested for a felony. Yeah. What was that for? There was a guy in our gang, the Capital City Hooligans, that was getting harassed by this other kid that was not really coming to school often, but he would hang out at the bus stop after school.

26:48And I thought I was Mr. Protector. You know, I was going to go protect my buddy. So I went up and hit the kid. and at that time, pretty young age, for him to be involved in drug use, but he was involved in drug use, so when I hit him, it collapsed his sinus cavity, broke his nose, and cracked his eye socket, so he had major surgery damage, so it made it a felony charge. And I was arrested and spent three years on probation and going to a scared straight program, anger management, cutting lawns for the county, those types of things. And I had to miss half a season of wrestling. Shit. And stabbings happening in high school?

27:23Well, describe the first time that happened. Yeah, yeah. So it's the same thing against the Nazi guys. One of the guys in our group had run into those guys, and they stabbed him with a screwdriver, but he got stabbed in the stomach and then twice in the stomach and then I think twice in the leg because he was, like, kicking up at him when he fell down. So, I mean, and then things start to escalate after that, you know, because then you're like, oh, hey, these guys are going to stab me, so then you carry a knife. so did anybody i mean did that did the fear get to anybody was anybody like fuck this i'm out that's tough to say because just like with the club stuff we'll get into later but when you're wrapped up in it you know and especially like at this age you know i'm clearly not mentally developed developmental to the point where i'm like being mature i'm like all off fight or flight i'm in this zone of you know i've got this image i'm a tough guy No one's going to mess with me.

28:16So I don't think I really thought of consequences, or I know I didn't think of consequences. And I was so wrapped up in it that the fear really wasn't there. Because, I mean, these guys would come to my house and bang on my windows, you know, and I'd have to go outside and fight them. Holy shit. And it was like if we were on a lunch break and we'd go out, you know, we'd leave campus to get lunch. Sometimes they'd be there at lunch. And like I said, these guys were either seniors or older. And I wrestled at 124 pounds. Man, I wasn't a big guy. And so, yeah, we were just like, felt like if we were out in the community, it's either they were going to attack us or we attacked them.

28:50So there was this back and forth thing that started out really early. Wow. How much of your time did this consume? I mean, that was my high school for the most part. I mean, I took wrestling less seriously, unfortunately. I never ended up wrestling in college because, like I said, I missed that semester. I was more into, you know, had this image of the tough guy. And also at the same time, we were doing the political aspect of it too, right? Like my mom was like going to the PTA meetings talking about that the school wasn't doing anything about those neo-Nazis. They were putting like leaflets and pamphlets all over the school and on lockers.

29:27And like so there was like this community. It was an organization called Communities Against Hate that I was like writing for a newsletter for. And we were like, you know, we'd have meetings to like educate people on who the Nazis were and what they're involved in. So it's like, if we weren't on the streets fighting, we were doing this political piece. But it was my identity by then. It took up my whole time. Because I remember in senior year when they're like, what are you going to go to school for? What's everybody doing? I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. I was like, I'll probably play.

29:56By then, I'd started playing guitar and looked like jam with some of the friends and stuff. And so shortly after high school, I joined a punk rock band. But so it was like, that was kind of, I was like, oh, well, I was in Salem. The big skinny gang was in Portland. And I was like, yeah, when I graduate, I'm moving to Portland. I'm going to join the big dogs. Maybe he'd be in a punk band. I mean, who were you living with? Were you living with your mom or your stepdad? I was living with my grandparents. With your grandparents? Yeah, yeah. My grandpa was like a very, very big role model in my life.

30:22He fought in World War II. You know, he was that generation of tough guy, but he was such a kind and caring person. He taught me amazing ways, amazing thing about the way to treat women. And he was so good to my grandmother. And, you know, he would sing to her. They would dance at night. Like, he would comb his hair before bed, you know, because he's going to bed with his wife. Like, he taught me some amazing, just amazing things. and he was just a kind and caring person. But, you know, he was a boxing champion in the Army, and, you know, he fought in World War II, and so he was the tough guy too, even though he was a real tough guy because he never acted like a tough guy, right?

30:51He would defend himself or his family, I guess, if needed, but it never came to that. But so I just, I mean, I hung on every word he said. Like, I just, he was the man I looked up to. What, I mean, what do your grandparents think when they've got a gang full of skinheads banging on the doors trying to get you to come out? So when that had happened, that was at my mom's, when I was with my mom and stepdad, and it might have been one of the reasons we moved too. Didn't happen when I was with my grandparents, but my grandpa knew of what was going on because I remember one time my brother got jumped and my grandpa was like, all right, who are these guys?

31:23you know um but i remember more like my grandpa memories are more like the disappointment in me when i'd get in trouble like that well when i got my felony my adult felony i was still in high school which was like the end of my my high school year and like i had went out got in this fight and then i went to a concert in portland and when i came home the next day he said hey the cops were here looking for you and um and the cops came and they were trying to interview us and we waited until I got an attorney, and we ended up going to jail. So now we're on probation, and then while I'm out on probation, I get in another fight, and the cops come back by, and I said, I'm out of here.

31:58I'm going to go on the run because I thought I was a young kid. I thought I'm going to go to prison. And I just remember my grandpa sitting down and just crying and saying, like, when's this going to stop? Like, you can't run from everything. And that's something I've never forgotten. Wow. What was that fight over, the first one at the concert? The first? Okay. So this one's a bit of a story, but I'd been kidnapped a month before that. And when I say, yeah, so we were out one night trying to buy beer, you know, young kid, or I think we were, yeah, we're 18. And there was this older skinned dude in town that would buy beer for us if he was around.

32:37So we'd went to his house. He wasn't there. And one of the guys with me was one of the guys from the Portland gang, like the older guys. We were trying to be cool, impress the older guy. and the kid there was a guy also going to this dude's house and and he's we said hey man we can you go buy us some beer and he says yeah sure and he was just i don't know we thought he was being sketchy about and we already came back didn't give us the correct change and so to us we were like he's trying to rip us off so we beat him up not to the level of like hospital or anything but you know we beat him up pretty good and took his stuff and of course he told the guy that lived there because they're friends and uh you know i'm in this like untouchable mode in my mind like you know we're hot shit and um it's the guy that lived there had called the mutual friend and said and said hey man i have that money owe you what come by and pick it up so him and i went over there and we knock on the door and yeah come on in and as soon as we walk in man the door shuts behind us there's about 15 people in there and they pushed up against the wall one guy's got a gun on me the other guy had a cue ball and a sock and he's hitting my friend and because of my affiliation with the gang in portland they just kept saying don't touch him but if you know if i would have done anything they would have and i kept denying it denying it and my dumb ass they took my wallet and this was back in the the days of renting video so i had a blockbuster video card in this kid's name because you know i was such a gangster that i was gonna go rent movies in his name and never bring them back you know and uh they they go you don't know him huh and they look and they say his name and i just go fuck man and one of my friends was in a car down the street and he i was driving my grandpa's car of course because i was messed up my grandpa's car i was in my grandpa's car down the street and some lookouts had come up the stairs and I said hey he's got somebody out front this was all around right at the same time when they pulled my ID and so my friend's in his underwear by now because they're taking his clothes off or they're hitting him they had my wallet as the door opened and said that so here's our chance so we just started swinging and running out the door so we're running down the stairs people are swinging bats at us going up the stairs and I'm running to the car and I'm yelling at my friend like start the car start the car and right as I get in the car they shoot at us and they shot the window out of my grandpa's car.

34:37Mind you, I'm a senior in high school, man. And my buddy that had to get hit with the pool ball. He's all bloody. He's in his underwear. He's running down the street within his boxers, his wangs hanging out. He's all bloody. And a family in a minivan were coming home from church and they opened the door and they told him, just get in. And so they got us out of there. Wow. So there's that piece to it. Another piece is one day after school, there's this kid that she's dating some girl in my high school. I didn't know who she was, but he started dressing like a skinhead. And of course that was my territory.

35:07So I had to ask him who he was and where he's from. And I didn't like his attitude. So I hit him and she, she turned it, obviously she had a grudge over it because I was being an asshole. Um, and so she had rounded up some friends, I guess, to try and beat me up. So they started calling me at my grandparents' house. And this was a week after that kidnapping situation. And because the window of my car got shut out, I don't know if they had heard about it or what, but I, cause I didn't know who's calling me, right? They just kept making threats and they said well you're gonna meet us at the park or we're gonna shoot up your house like we shot up your car well that's my grandparents it's the last thing i want to happen so me and my brother and two other guys you know i had a car up there early to see who was gonna get there and how many people there were because i mean you know these guys that kidnapped there was a bunch of them they were older so i wasn't like super confident in it so i had some guys that got there early to scout the spot and then me and my brother showed up and when i walked up there was these like nerdy kids from high school like i didn't even pay attention i knew who they were but i like they were never on my radar and they started trying to act tough and i was still like trying to comprehend like look like wait what and um so there was four of them and it was just me and my brother at the time and so i was carrying a pistol so i took my pistol out and i handed it oh there was a third friend there because i took my pistol and handed it to the third guy because i'm like i'm not going to use it and i didn't want to fall out when i'm fighting and i just we just start hitting these dudes and one of them i'd hit with a bottle i felt there was like a henry weinhard's orange cream soda always remember because it was an empty one sitting there on the ground and i had picked it up and hit this kid with it well they had the girl that had called and started all this she was at top already on the phone with the cops so as we're fighting once they started losing she calls um and we hear sirens and we take off and this is embarrassing but it'll date me but my i had dropped my pager on the run out of there so So they're in the minivan getting ready to leave, and they get stopped by the cops.

36:59But the cops didn't have enough information yet what was going on. They let them leave. I'm on foot, so I had to run all through neighborhoods, all the stuff once I got my pager. But, of course, they grabbed the bottle. They fingerprinted the bottle. So I don't know any of this. I'm going to Portland. I'm going to a concert, telling all the older guys how cool we are. We just can beat these guys up, you know, and then come home to the cops at our house. Shit. And so at the time, Oregon had just implemented what they called Measure 11, which was mandatory minimum sentencing, like the Tough Unviolent Crime Act.

37:28And so my charge was assault in the second degree, assault with a weapon. So it would have been, if I took it to trial and got found guilty, it's a minimum of five years, 10 months, no matter previous record, no matter the fact that I just turned 18. And I was guilty of it, right? Like there were circumstances and there was four of them and three of us or whatever, but still I was guilty of it. So I took a plea bargain of assault in a third degree. And so we did, I think, two or three weeks in jail when we first got arrested. Then I had to go back over Christmas break, spent my whole Christmas break in jail.

37:58And then I had to go back and do a month after everyone was going on their senior vacations and graduating. I had to go to county jail, spend a month there. And then I did five years of probation off of that. Holy shit. So how many times have you been to jail before you were 18? That was those two. Two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But going, here's the other thing too, is being 18 years old, only knowing of the jail prison system from either visiting my dad in prison or just popular culture, TV and stuff. And in my mind, these were all the racist skinheads around there. And I'm this 124 pound anti-racist kid.

38:31So I was scared to death of jail when I first went in there. The first couple of days weren't bad at all. Well, it wasn't, none of it was that bad once I got there. But the first couple of days they had me and my twin brother in the same cell. And I was like, well, hell yeah, it's like a sleepover. This can't be bad, you know? And I'll remember because they gave us slippers, and his slipper had a hole in it. So whenever he stepped, it goes. So we were always making fun of him for it. And one night, the guards came into our cell and split us up because they said, well, if your parents or someone's going to bail one of you out, we don't know if you guys are going to swap ID cards.

39:04Like, get the hell out of here. Well, you go ahead, bro. But so they split us up, and they're like rushing me. And he's like, hey, here. Here's your stuff. and I put my slippers on and I step out the door and I hear and he's just laughing in the cell. He gave me his holy slippers on my way out. Holy shit. Wow. Or there was a time where someone had stole a razor, a razor blade, and so they were doing cell searches and person searches. So they called you out of your cell one at a time and you had to walk across the whole tier and then go out and get frisked and then come back. So I'm coming back from the tier and it's quiet and I hear someone go, they checked his ass.

39:37He's walking funny. I'm like, what? I look over and it's my brother. Holy shit. Wow. So you and your brother, I mean, even after they split you guys up in a different town, you were still running the same gang, doing all the same stuff. Pretty much. So when I got into that skinhead stuff, he listened to the music, but he went to this country school. He thought he was going to be a roper. He was in the Cowboys, and he practiced roping in the backyard. And he had a cool belt buckle with a spur on it that spun around when he flicked it. He was really cool. But those Nazi dudes that were always looking for me didn't know how to twin, in and they jammed him up at like a circle k and uh i think kind of from then he'd realize he's going to be assumed it's him you know i it just he became his beef too and then so he was like well might as well join too so then he got kind of into it and then we started doing stuff together so when did you when did you guys head to portland right after high school right when after got out of jail in high school i moved to portland and part of it was good for me in the fact of probation.

40:36So when I'm on probation in Salem, which is a smaller town, it was very strict probation. When I went to Portland, I'm on gang probation, but I'm a skinny white kid. And the gang probation is in the Northeast part of Portland. And my PO is this bigger black guy. And he's like, what'd you go to jail for? He's beating up Nazis. Yeah, man, just don't get in trouble. You'll be good. They would visit me at work or you don't have to do urine samples and stuff, but I never really did drugs back then. I didn't really drink. So it was all fine for me. and you knew what gang you guys wanted to join yeah yeah there was a gang there called the ro city bovver boys um which i have ro city on my knuckles under my arm and they had started in 1995 right in the early eras of portland like it was the same thing as salem there was a lot of neo-nazi skinhead gangs there and they had it would reach national news when the neo-nazi group there east side white pride which became volksfront had killed an ethiopian immigrant Molliguitas Hurrah, beat them to death with baseball bats.

41:32And so there was a big trial where the family of the deceased had sued Tom Metzger and Lightarian resistance. So there was this big political trial going on, you know, and so it was all over the media and stuff like that. So there was like three or four anti-racist skinhead gangs there. And kind of the main ones from each one decided, well, let's just have one. And they kind of either beat up or ran off the guys that weren't down and they conformed together and they started Rose City. So by the time I was coming around, they were the only anti-racist in a gang in Portland. So any punk rock show I went to, they were there.

42:03All the different concerts, they were there. Because they were showing up to make sure Nazis weren't there. Plus, we all liked the same music. So for me, I'm 18. These guys are probably 22, 23. But to me, they were the older guys. So when I moved up there, that was my first thing. I moved in with one of them, and I was like, I want to be a part of this. Were they pretty accepting? No. so they were the type of gang that so and i say gang in this extent too other than we weren't there was no monetary value weren't like hustling drugs or anything but they were very territorial so even if you were an anti-racist again and if you came to a concert or to their who you who are you where you're from and you'd probably get beat up and if you came back you may get beat up again maybe not but then if you kept then you kind of like earn your way in by seeing that you're not a pussy because it was it sounds crazy but it was a very violent time dude and so it's like if everyone's going to be around we want to make sure you're not going to run off or you're not soft um so there was a lot of challenges in improving yourself coming up through that would they instigate things or they would just they would i mean they would beat you up but would they would there be an initiation yeah yeah there was a jump in i had to get jumped in like a traditional like they just beat your ass and what's a jump in so where everyone in the gang surrounds you and you're supposed to fight and they fight you and they're like i see stuff on tv where like oh you only punch in stomach or it's only 10 seconds, but ours wasn't.

43:21Ours was until somebody called it. And if you hit the ground, they're calling you a pussy. And I'm like, dude, I'm getting hit by 12 tough guys. What do you mean? When I got jumped in, so there was one of the dudes that was kind of like the shot caller for the crew. I think early on, once he, once, you know, I got comfortable and kind of started coming around more, I've always been like vocal about my opinion and, and always been good kind of drawing people in and always really rise to leadership positions and i think even there was this weird tension between him or he had some insecurities about me i think and so he he had made it my brother was already in and my friend zach who moved up there with me was already in before they jumped me in like they i had to wait like two extra years or something two extra years yeah it was a year or two extra that but they were all i mean i got to hang out party with everyone but i wasn't a member so i couldn't go to the meetings and couldn't claim to be a member you know um and you think it was an insecurity yeah absolutely especially after like when i joined and stuff too because he had given me some talks and it was like you know he had i had brought like a lot of the younger guys up with me and then as i was in i was a very active dude you know i'm outspoken i'm pretty sociable so i was bringing people around and so i think he kind of was seeing that that sphere of influence was changing um what i mean what are you and your brother saying about this you guys seem well as tired as it gets yeah yeah and you're not a couple years later you're still not in yeah so him and i fought twice physically over it when he was drinking and stuff because he would be like that's why you're not in or whatever and i'll also say part of it was eat my ego they said i wasn't ready to be in uh cockiness you know i mean it wasn't all his fault um but yeah i think it was a year after my brother got jumped in and i got jumped in that dude i'm talking about the leader guy we had been at a concert one night and this dude was saying a bunch of racist stuff and was grabbing on some girls we beat him up well apparently he was friends with this leader guy and he told them that we were saying racist you know something dumb like to get support and it was this guy's chance to finally beat me up right like now we had a reason so my band was playing a concert and he had been driving around telling all the guys when he saw me, he was going to break my jaw.

45:37And he's a big dude. He's a very tough fighter. And I'm sitting at the bar next door to where my band's playing. I was 20 years old, maybe. So, you know, probably, yeah, because I had a fake idea. So I'm sitting at the bar, and he comes walking in, and I just remember my stomach dropping. I was like, damn. This is the leader. Yeah, yeah. You're a leader. Yeah. So he walks in, and he goes, hey, man, you've got to go for a walk, which I know what that means. It means we're going to go fight. So we go into this alley, and he starts fighting me. And I didn't fight back, because I was like, A, I'm sure he can win.

46:05B, whether I could or not, I didn't want to make things worse. He already kind of had this fragile ego state. And then, I don't know. I just didn't want to make things worse. And I just wanted to be over as quick as possible. And I remember he was slamming my head against this brick wall. And I put my hand up. And it broke my thumb. That's why my thumb's all nasty looking. The bone was sticking out of my thumb. And I had to play a concert that night. So I had it all taped up. And I remember when I was strumming the guitar every now and again, the strings would get up underneath it. It was gnarly, too.

46:35Dude. Gnarly. But so my point is when I got jumped in, it was two weeks after that. So I'm in a cast. Still have black eyes from him beating me up. And then I was supposed to fight 12 guys. So that didn't go well. Did you ever make amends with this guy? Yeah. Actually, within the last few years, we've gotten. Within the last few years? Well, yeah. He called and apologized about four years ago. I mean, he was always. Holy shit. Because I left that world when I was 25. So I was only in for about five years. He has stayed in it, right? So there was those years where we're like, we had to coexist, but we didn't always get along.

47:10And then when I left, he was trying to rally everyone to jump me out, which didn't happen. What does that mean? So you're in the gang or you're out. So if you want to leave, you have to get jumped out, just like you get jumped in. And I didn't. The reason he wanted to jump me out is he said, like, once you're in, you're not allowed to be in any other gangs. And I joined a motorcycle club. And now, obviously, they acknowledge that that's not a gang. It wasn't the same thing. At the time, it was just him using his influence, trying to get me beat up, I guess. And so years later, he had reached out, and we had pretty deep talk.

47:47And then now we stay in touch and talk pretty often. Wow.

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50:45All right, Justin, we're back from the break. I think we were just talking about getting jumped out. Yeah, so I was in for about five years. And what was cool about that time, too, is I was in the band then, too. So like I said, I'd played some music with people in high school. We'd meet up after school to go to this guy's house. I'd play guitar. But we never did shows or anything. In high school, right when I moved to Portland, my first job was at the Hot Topic, that store in the mall. I know. That's embarrassing. But there was a guy that moved there from Connecticut that was in this other smaller punk rock band.

51:20And he was trying to get a band together. And so the assistant manager of Hot Topic, her boyfriend played bass. So I was like, well, I play guitar and he sings. So we just kind of put this band together. Because at first it was still the guys I was playing with in high school. And then my friend from Zach that I met at Hot Topic, I'd have him come and kind of jam with us. But it was like more kind of misfit soundy. And he was like, well, I was singing about vampires and shit. so uh he wanted to do more like a street punk thing and so we kind of built this band and at first well i feel like everything i do i go like all in so when we were doing the band like next thing you know we're touring several months that like we were we for four of those five years we took we were on the road for a month home for a month or on the road for two months hold on hold on you were you were touring yeah yeah yeah we're that good you were good we put out three we had back then you had to be on a record label if you wanted your music out there right for distribution and all that stuff so we we had three we had an ep come out then we did a full length on a bigger label and then the last one was another ep on a bigger like bigger for punk rock they weren't like what was the name of the band the escaped i think the biggest thing we did was we were on um the guy from rancid's record label give him the boot there was like a compilation called give him the boot on hellcat records and we were on that so that was like the most mainstream we got but we played like some warp tour dates we played cbgb's in new york city we played gilman's holy shit you guys were playing the warp tour yeah yeah we did a couple warp tour dates cleveland ohio and then oregon and then you know like famous cbgb's in portland where the ramones and everybody played and then gilman street which is where like rancid and green day and those bands first played so we got to play a lot of those venues we meet all these guys yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm still friends with like so like dropkick murphy's or like some of those bands are you serious yeah man yeah al bar the singer and ken casey bass were really good friends of mine Who's your favorite punk rock bands?

53:06Oh man, that's gonna be probably The Clash. It's always been, I think, as far as like authentic old school punk rock, The Clash. I recently saw The Misfits when they got back together and I just thought of nostalgia, it was cool, you know? Right on. And then more like mainstream stuff, probably Rancid because they sound like The Clash. Wow. I mean, damn dude. Quite the experience by the time you're what, 20? 20, 20? Yeah, 25, I think was around the time I left, 24, 25, when we broke. We stopped playing in 2005, and then we did a reunion show in 2015, and that was it. That was the last time I played guitar.

53:45That's the last time you played guitar? Yeah, and in between, I never really played guitar either, because at the time, I played it all through high school, and then I was in this band for five years, but I just played power chords. It was a punk rock. I'm not a good guitar player. I just jumped around a lot, played power chords. And so once I wasn't playing it to play music. I wasn't that guy who would sit in the room and play guitar or play along to the radio. And so I just lost interest in it. What's it like? I mean, as a young man going out into a Warped Tour. I mean, that's how many people are there?

54:13It was great. So Warped Tour wasn't one of our bigger shows because there's so many other bands playing at the same time. So like Lars Fredrickson from Rancid, he was in a side project called Lars and the Bastards. And they had played right before we did. And they were telling everyone, hey, go see The Escaped. but I want to say like AFI or some other big band was playing at the same time with us. So, you know, it wasn't our, it wasn't our biggest crowd. Gotcha. But you know, the crazy thing I remember about tour that is funny looking back on now is this was pretty, pretty pre-internet and definitely pre-navigation.

54:43So like when I was booking our tours, there was a book called book your own life and it was just. You were managing it. Yeah. I wrote the songs and booked the tours and everything. And so there was this book called book your own life where it's like, look up Cleveland and say, okay, here's the venues you could play. Here's the maybe a house, houses you could stay at. And here's the promoters and had everyone's like, you know, phone number and address. And this was in that era, email was just starting. So really you'd make a press kit and I'd mail out packages and I'd mail out demo CDs and record labels.

55:11And so I booked this, our very first U.S. tour, I was 20. We booked this whole U.S. I booked this whole U.S. tour off of this book. And it was a trip. And then Now we're navigating the country. We're going to AAA to get roadmaps. I mean, this is not to date myself, but I remember we had a cardboard box between the driver and passenger seat full of cassette tapes, mixed tapes. And then I'd have a pocket full of quarters in case you get lost. You got to go use a payphone. And then I remember MapQuest was kind of starting to come out. So then we could build at least an idea of where we're going. But if you got off route, you still had to have a map.

55:46It was just crazy for me to think of a bunch of kids in their early 20s navigating the country with no navigation, no cell phones. Yeah, different world, man. Yeah. We must be about the same age. I mean, were you drinking, drugging, partying? No, not really. So like – What were your grades like? When I applied myself, they were decent. But around high school, I was getting like Bs and Cs. I mean, I graduated, but I wasn't like, and when I went back to college years later, I was on a role and I've been in the Honor Society and all that stuff for my grade. You just put all your potential into the gangs and punk rock.

56:23Yeah. I mean, it's pretty fucking impressive. I mean, organized an entire gang, got into another one, managing and playing and promoting the band. I mean, that's a lot of shit. Yeah, stay active. I like to stay active. Damn, dude. I think I've been really blessed with networking. I've been very good at A, meeting people and maintaining relationships. Like I said, a lot of those bands we played with, I'm still friends with. I was just in Austin, Texas last week and got to see some friends I haven't seen in 20 years. So on our first US tour, our drummer was a mechanic. He's like, this van's going to be great.

57:02It's going to make it. It'll be golden. And we had issues all along the West Coast. In fact, our van broke down right outside of Compton. And this is like, like I said, we're 20 years old. and skinheads and punk rockers guys mohawks and stuff and uh the california i don't know if they still do i'm sure they probably do but if you break down the interstate they just tow you off the interstate so they drop us off in compton to find a car battery that dark so we get to this venue um and so we were just something i'll always remember because it was crazy and then uh you know everything worked out we got to the venue but we were just outside of austin texas and the van broke down and when we were out of the van trying to figure out what was going on with it it caught The carburetor caught fire, and then the van burned to the ground.

57:43So we had to call the bands we were supposed to be playing with. We called and say, we're not going to make it. Well, that morning, they came and picked us up all the equipment that we had salvaged and gotten out of it. And we were able to get most of the stuff out of it because it started at the front and worked its way back. So we could get most of the stuff out. But we ended up staying in Austin, Texas. I was there for two months because we would play shows. And then we had enough money. We'd send one guy home on a Greyhound. and we'd have some other local band guy fill in, and then we'd send the next guy on the Greyhound.

58:11And so, you know, I made some great friends there, and so when I was back there last week, I got to hang out with all those guys and catch up, and it was really, really cool. That's awesome, man. Wow. Wow. So were you and a gang in the punk rock band at the same time, or was it one of the other? Yeah. No, I was, and it was one of those things where, like, each, especially in the skinhead scene, but also in, like, the hardcore punk rock, the hardcore music scene, a lot of the bigger cities had their own crews or gangs, And so it was actually for me a good networking piece, because I met a lot of dudes from these other crews and kind of was just this network, get to know each other.

58:42So they'd come to our shows, we'd get to their shows. And it was cool. I mean, I met a ton of people that way. So it was cool. And years later, when I got into club life, some of those dudes did too. And so there was like these connections I had with other national clubs because I knew this guy from the hardcore scene or the punk rock scene. Why did you want jumped out of that gang? What was the name of that gang again? The Rose City Barber Boys? Yeah. RCBB? Yeah. So towards the end, for me, I was dating this girl for the last five years, pretty much the whole time I was in the band. And she had won some thing where she was trying to be a VJ for Fuse TV, like some contest.

59:21So she was in New York City for the finalists, and she said, hey, where should I go? What bar should I go to? And I said, hey, there's this, I won't say the name, but I was like, hey, there's this really cool bar down there. All the bands hang out there. so she went down there and one of my favorite bands was there at the time and she went up she's talking to the singer and and he was wearing this shirt for this um promotional company that i really liked and he'd taken it off and gave it to her and of course at the end of the night they end up hooking up and i don't i don't hear this for months and stories vary on whatever but either way i'm someone my brother had called me and said hey you know there's this thing on the internet because this competition like you had to vote for who you wanted to win and these people were like well at least I wasn't like Kristen and so-and-so and um these I knew we didn't like we played warp tour together and we maybe met a few times we weren't like friends but we knew of each other and like I said at the beginning he he knew me enough to go hey here's this t-shirt and so there was some ego involved for sure but the biggest place was I want to know like she was that first thing didn't happen so I was reaching out to this guy and he wouldn't hit me back he wouldn't answer so I started reaching out to mutual friends and my thing was I just wanted man-to-man talk to me did it happen why you know whatever and um he's involved in a pretty big gang out of their crew out of New York and so I don't probably just thought he could cool guy me or tough guy me I don't know but he was married at the time I don't know if he still does or not but some of my mutual friends had called and said hey I was like hey I just want this guy to get a hold of me and they said yeah you need to stop hitting people up or you're gonna get hurt and I was like cool.

1:00:54So now I'm getting threatened after all this happened. So I said, well, hey, if he doesn't call me before he plays in Portland, it's not going to go good for him. And never heard from him. So I had some, me and some scouts watched him in Boise, Idaho. We watched him in Seattle. And when they came to Portland, we jumped him and beat the band up. And they're a bigger band and they were a bigger crew. So all these other skinhead crews rolling west coast that initially were cool with it. People were picking sides and there was this drama. And his brother was in an even larger band and they were going to come back to play Portland.

1:01:29So his brother reaches out to our gang and he says, Hey, this issue seems between my brother and his brother. So why don't me and then my brother, Jeremy, so why doesn't him and Jeremy meet try and squash this? And when we had planned, when we jumped them, you know, we had planned it like a full military. I the shooters in the back and the cars down here because we this was a very reputable crew and we weren't sure what to expect hold on go ahead finish i want i want to i want to ask you afterwards you know what all goes into what what planning goes into when you're going to jump somebody okay but you're talking about spotters shooters all kinds of shit yeah yeah it sounds pretty intricate um *** Well, and I could lean into that because so when they were when we were I had people watch them in Boise because I wanted to get a headcount on who they had with them, how many they had on the road, you know, who had security.

1:02:24Did they have security with them? Where do they post up when they're leaving? Do they park in the back when they load their equipment? You know, I wanted to get all the information. And because we watched Boise, I did the same thing in Seattle. And then we kind of lost them in Seattle because I was trying to have them tailed. And there's only one, you know, Interstate 5 goes from Seattle to Portland. so my brother was on the side of the road with his harley and pretending like it was broken down until they came by and then he just got in behind them and called us then we knew where to expect them which way they were going um but because they were like i said to us we thought they were reputable guys that we didn't know if they had guns on them we didn't know you know they were on tour two other bands so they had a good amount of people um so we had people there all day super early to see if other you know who they had coming down there um we did have guys that were stationed to just stand in the back with firearms in case they pulled firearms.

1:03:13Otherwise, they don't get involved. We had spotters up in the highway, which next door was the parking garage, to see who was coming and going, where law enforcement was, because you could see the ins and outs. And then we all came down. So we went there the day before and dropped vehicles in to leave, and then we came in at different vehicles so we could separate and go somewhere else. So we planned it pretty well, and it went off without a hitch. got out there before law enforcement. And so then they want to schedule this meeting to make up with us. And I wasn't allowed to go anywhere in the area because they figured my presence there would just make it worse.

1:03:53And I don't know if it was leadership on my end for not impressing the importance enough, or it was just people comfortable or cocky, but we didn't do any of that the second time. We took the guy at his word that this was going to be a meeting. So there was like three or four guys with my brother, but my brother walked. They said, okay, here's the, got the call he walks up and as he's walking up there's these three guys that come up to him two of which were friends of ours one had stayed at my house um and they were both in bigger bands and just as a caveat one of them became a hell's angel later but not important till later but anyway so the three of them there and they end up jumping my brother and they beat him with a club or he he said it was a table leg or uh but he he was beaten so bad that he almost he was in icu for two weeks his his jawbone had broken went into his ear canal destroyed his eardrums equilibrium he has inner stem brain damage like had to learn how to walk again his ear fell off like it was in his fucking hand um holy shit so he i'm couldn't get a hold of anyone for like the check-in see how it went and all of a sudden he calls me and i'm like where are you at and he's like they got me they got me and i was like who got you and you know he's just had all this brain damage he doesn't know what's going on and he said i'm in a bush and i was like where i was like trying to and he had he had walked up to a clothing store the buffalo exchange and they just saw him covered in blood and they locked the door so by the time i get down there there's ambulance he was already in the ambulance um they had brought a bus load of people up from different crews from down from seattle and up from la and sacramento so they had probably 30 dudes with them so the other guys were getting they were fighting too but no one got it like my brother because he got singled out and jumped you know so you know now i'm dealing with my family i'd already lost a little brother right now my twin brother is in the hospital with a brain bleed family's freaking out you know and uh things got real serious and it got to the point where he finally got out of the hospital but he you know his ptsd was bad he was because of the the inner stem or because of the equilibrium he had spins all you know he couldn't get comfortable he was sick um and he we had like he had this walker that had like tennis balls on it but if it wasn't even he would go like this and keep him now he's deaf and he's getting used to being deaf and because everything's spinning he'd stare at the floor but you were supposed to take him out to practice walking so i'd take him to like the store you know friend my or something and he'd be doing this and if it was crooked he'd like start doing this and go off to the left so i'd fuck with his walker so he'd walk crooked but he couldn't hear you or anything because you know he's staring at the ground so nothing would spin he couldn't hear but it got to the point where one time so then we have a meeting with the gang and and um so there was that guy that i talked about before the leader guy and then another dude I looked up to in the crew and they brought in this pillowcase and they empty out some, you know, dump out some pistols out of it.

1:06:32And they said, Hey, you know, we need to have revenge. Like we got to, we got to rectify this. This is for the name of the crew. This is for retribution. And they said, so we got to go, but we knew where a couple of those dudes, the city they lived in, they go, we got to go down there and take care of these guys. And I said, they said, you guys take the bus down there and take these. And it was me and little Zach. So the guy went to high school with a wrestling team. Then he was in the first crew with me. He joined. And so yeah, he ended up being a mongrel with me for a while too so he's kind of done everything with me and so it's just me and little zach and uh and we okay well when do we leave and and this guy says no no we're not going you guys gotta go and i said i mean i feel like it's pretty obvious if something happens with these guys we're gonna go to prison he's like hey if that's what we got to do for the reputation of the crew and you know i was still pretty locked in so i was like i guess that's what we're doing and i go home and i tell my brother and he lost his mind he's like why the F would you do that?

1:07:23He's like, first, first I get jumped to take me. And then you guys are going to go to prison. And he's like, for what? Like, how's that going to help the gang? And so that the tension of that, and then things, you know, retribution not happening. And also the fact that my presence in that gang was the issue at this point, right? My band couldn't tour anymore because of these guys were like more of a national gang on a bigger level. They were a bigger band. so like uh the guys from rancid were one of them's in that gang so they dropped us kicked us off the label like there was all the guys that were my mutual friends i was trying to reach out to it was all everything was done after that everything got cut off shit and so um around this time right before he got jumped we grew up riding vespas like from the skinhead scene so we had like a you know two-stroke three four speed vespas we were cruising we thought we were cool as fuck on him.

1:08:14And one of our buddies, an older skin of duty owned a tattoo shop that I'd worked at. He went from Vespas to Harleys and he let me ride his Harley. And I was like, game over, dude. You know, just the torque, the power, everything. So my twin brother went to the Harley dealership and financed us both Sportsters or co-signed on my Sportster. And within about two months, we traded him in for big twins. And as soon as we had bikes, you know, we were still doing the crew stuff, but he, he couldn't ride after getting jumped or he wasn't supposed to. Um, he couldn't even walk. He was so dizzy. And I remember being at work one day and him calling me saying, I need to come pick him up.

1:08:50I go, where are you? And he tried to ride to a friend's house and he got there, but he's like, no way I'm not riding back right now. Um, and so we, I started hanging out, you know, more interested in hanging out with the guys, little Zach had bought an Harley. So like, you know, now, now there's like a group of three or four of us riding around and anything I've done, whether it was a skinny gang or the band, I was like, if I'm going to do it, I want to do the best of it. So I already was like, cool motorcycle club, you know? And, uh, and so that was kind of my transition where I was started, you know, kind of put one thing behind me and moved on to the next.

1:09:24When'd you get your first tattoo? I was 16. What was it? Uh, I had the laurel wreath, like the Fred Perry logo on my chest. It's covered up now. But I had it. My dude did it in the backyard with a guitar string, homemade prison-style tattoo machine. And then at 17, like me, Jeremy, Little Zach, the guys from our old crew, got this Brothers Till the End tattoo. It's like a straight razor. I have stuff behind it now. And then when I turned 18, I just started getting professional ones, thankfully. Do you have a favorite? No, I don't think so, man. Do you have a couple favorites? I mean, I've got a lot of memorial tattoos.

1:10:02that's probably being the most to me um but no i don't know if i have any actual favorite i like them all right on right on what's this one um illinois io so when we were uh i don't know if it's gonna get me in shit or not but when we when we started going at it with another club to say that another club in illinois uh they said we couldn't be there and they were gonna come take our rockers from us and they weren't gonna have stuff that said illinois so i tattooed it on my face that's a statement yeah how'd that work out still got it still here huh yeah right on so you're interested in motorcycle gangs that was it riding harley yeah yeah so there was a club in town called the outsiders which was like they'd been there since the 60s they they had a chapter in portland and tacoma so very old school like chopper club even around the time i joined most of them didn't even have newer Harleys they all had custom choppers and if you rode a sports store you had to park across the street that's one of the reasons we we traded them in pretty quick but um one of the guys had a Dyna and they'd call him store-bought Scott because because he didn't have a chopper you know like that was before everyone was riding baggers and like it is now you know so they were super old school and I didn't know you know I'd read all these books about it like it was skin in and everything else but i didn't you know i didn't know that like being in it i didn't know the culture and so to me these guys might as well have been hell's angels right like to me i'm like these are some outlaw bikers you know they're old school they were that long haired biker look you know um so i was super enamored so i was like spending as much time with them as i could i was going on rides and stuff with them hanging out the clubhouse and ended up prospecting for them for I think two months um but there was this moment where I kind of looked past the shininess of it you know and I looked around the room and I was like and this is a great club and great guys but I was like I don't have anything in common with any of these guys like you know they're listening to old classic rock they're like 50 60 years old I'm 24, 25.

1:12:12You know, outside of riding motorcycles, these aren't guys that I'd like go to the movies with or take to the homies barbecue. And I remember just, I was really thinking that and like even questioning like club life, if that's what it's like, you know, I loved the structure of it, the militant aspect, the protocol, you know, having the officers and everyone has a role. And, you know, and obviously when you're riding in a pack, just the feeling that was incredible um so there's a lot of aspects i like to it but there was just this lingering piece where i was like i don't know if i fit in here and i was the young guy trying to impress everybody and prove myself you know so i was trying to show that i'm tough and i could fight and i and the two opportunities i had failed miserably there was a uh i was at a bar with one of the members and some dude that was you know some local mma guy that was drunk and wanted to pick a fight, you know, and he's like, you guys think you're tough because you ride Harleys?

1:13:09And, you know, I was trying to pick a fight. He's like, I do this for a living and typical drunk bar stuff, you know, and so him and the member of the Outsider start fighting and I'm like, here's my chance. Hell yeah, I'm going to impress this dude. I don't pay attention to anything. I don't do anything I'd normally do about who's he with, where are they standing. I walk right past his friends and hit him and next thing I'm looking at my feet as I'm flying through the air. So I go back to the clubhouse and they nicknamed me Chuck for a while because I got chucked across the room. I said, well, that's not the reputation I want.

1:13:39And then as I was prospecting, I was out. And so a lot of prospects do the security, following around the members, paying attention to what's going on. So normally you're not sitting down, you're not drinking. So I'm kind of posted up and this guy kept calling me prospect, but he wasn't in the club. And I'm still learning the rules and protocol. And I knew he wasn't in the club I was prospecting for, but I didn't know if he was like in another club that they're friends with. Because I couldn't figure out why he was being so blatant. and he just kind of kept poking at me and I had gone outside and one of the outsiders told me to go back inside I don't know I was grabbing him a drink or something I was going back in and this guy stood in the doorway and he wouldn't let me pass and I said you know get out of the way dude he's like so move me so I hit him we kind of fought a little bit and there was an older member there that was visiting from Tacoma from the outsiders so it's just me and him and the dude didn't know how to fight so didn't take he kind of like doubled over and I uppercut him and he dropped.

1:14:31And when he hit the ground, my sponsor, so the one that had like brought me in, he comes running out and he starts kicking the guy and it gets broken up. And we go back to the clubhouse and I'm thinking they're going to say, yeah, Justin knocked this dude out. You know, it was so cool. Well, the old timer I was with goes, yeah, he was messing with the prospect. So I knocked him out. And I was like, I can't challenge his opinion. I'm a prospect. He's a member. So I just was like, cool. That was my shot, man. Shit. So yeah. And right around that time. So that was when this stuff was going on with me and my ex, Kristen.

1:15:02We had broken up. I was managing a porn store at the time. A porn store? Yeah, one of the members owned a porn store. And so it was a good job for me on tour because I could leave for two months, come back for a month, those types of things. And I worked day shift. I was manager, so I didn't like the ordering and the hiring. But by now, I'm 24 years old, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do because I'd left the band. I'm leaving the club or the skinhead gang and um when i was a senior in high school right before i got my felony me and my best friend at the time did delayed entry for the marine corps well i got the felony so i couldn't go in so around 24 ish let's see i i they had relaxed the felony rule for certain branches and the national guard was i tried every branch they wouldn't take them in the national guard so they could take me so i started lasering off some tattoos on my neck but then like the day before MAPS, they said, hey, we couldn't get the waiver.

1:15:58So initially, that was my goal, right? I'm going to go in the military, but no branch would take me. Why did you want to go in the military? I think for structure, for some sort of semblance of something to do. It was like, I just left the gang and I was looking for some sort of direction. And I thought, that might be it. And I mean, I was really interested in it. So in high school, when I was getting in trouble, my grandpa had called a Navy recruiter. My grandpa was in the army but some reason he called a navy recruiter and i got home from school he goes hey this guy wants to talk to you and they were trying to get me to join the navy so it was like my uncle was in the army my grandpa was in the army and so it was like you know i was like okay it's an option um and then when my best friend said he wanted to join the marines i was like hell yeah that'd be cool let's do that um but he got in and i didn't and then when i was trying to do the national guard when the band broke up three of my friends joined like we were all gonna you know, I would talk to these guys into doing it too.

1:16:52And they're all still in and I didn't get in. And so my cousin lived in Nevada or outside in Carson City in Reno. And her husband worked for this gas company and they were hiring people like to teach how to work on gas meters. And then his buddy was also said that he could help me get into the electrical union. So I'm thinking, okay, here's an opportunity to go do one of these two things, maybe have more of a career. So I left the Outsiders and I moved to Carson City, Nevada. I had, man, I didn't really have much. I think I mailed a box of UPS clothes to my cousin's house and I got on the Harley and I rode down there.

1:17:29And went to work for the gas company and it was all well and good, but I was still reading about motorcycle clubs. There was a lot down there. I was wanting to hang out with motorcycle clubs and started hanging out with clubs there. And there was a local club called the Booze Fighters that they were going to this thing called the Confederation of Clubs. Heard of them. the Boots Fighters yeah yeah have some they've been around since like the 40s Robert Patrick's a member like there's like a lot of like they're a very big national club and but they're not like a one percent outlaw club so there's a lot of great guys in that club so I was hanging out I hung out with them a little bit and they were going to this thing called the Confederation of Clubs which each state essentially has and that's where all the clubs in that region meet up and talk about legislation or politics, you know, helmet laws and stuff like that.

1:18:14So I know I'd see all the other clubs there. So I go up there with them. And at the time, you know, I'm not in a club. So it was like, it was a fashion biker, you know, had a leather jacket with a denim vest over it. And there was a club there called the Vagos that I don't maybe seen on the internet. This was like early bikers just started having websites and stuff. And they were the first time I ever met a Hells Angel. Like all these clubs are there. and uh i'm standing outside of this meeting just meeting people you know and i remember these vagos kept looking at me because i'm wearing a jean denim vest and that's what they wear with their patch on it and i'm thinking man i hope they don't think i'm trying to be one of them or something i don't even know them but there was a lot of younger ones and i was thinking well that's kind of cool you know these guys have a little different look and a lot of them were in punk rock and skateboarding i found out later and but this meeting ends and i was hanging i stayed a little bit longer to try and meet some more people and the booze fighters said uh hey meet up with us after and it was one of those like you know go three blocks this way take a right go here in this street and you'll see us all so i'm trying to navigate this on my own you know drive around town and i see a bar with a bunch of green out front so i assume it's the booze fighters and as i pull in i pull in past two prospects like i kind of had it blocked and as soon as i pull in i realize fuck this is vogel bar but i'm already here so i back my bike up to the curb and I put my kickstand down and I'm just kind of reading the room, looking, you know, the outside.

1:19:34I'm looking around like how many they have, where they at. And man, there's probably 30 of them. Everyone's looking at me and now I'm looking like I'm dressed like them, you know, I was like, well, this can't be good. So I didn't want to look like a pussy. So I said, fuck it. And I walk into the bar and I wasn't drinking at the time, but I'd ordered a beer, just have a bottle. And I sat in the corner and the president came up to me and asked what I was doing there. And we start talking and two hours later, we're still talking and he gives me his business card and asked what I was doing. you know he'd asked what I was doing there I said I was there for work and the next day was my first day of work and on my lunch break I checked my voicemail and I had a call from him asking how my first day of work was going and I was like well that's pretty cool you know um and I'm poor you know I just started working out there I moved with my cousin so he invites me over for dinner so I go over there for dinner and next next you know like every week I'm going over there for dinner um so I start hanging out more and more and I was like man he was older but there was a lot of younger guys and like you know it was this was reno where nothing bars don't close right so i wasn't really drinking at the time but we'd stay out late we're riding bikes fast i was like this is this is it this is for me and he was building a new chapter called border town right there on the border of nevada california and said hey if you join this chapter you won't have to prospect you can just be a full patch member because they need the members to join the chapter and so i ended up joining that was the first like big motorcycle club i got into shit where's your brother at at this time so my brother had chosen to start prospecting for the outsiders after i'd left and moved and moved to nevada so he's in oregon but now i'm calling him up telling him about hey there's this club here and these guys are great and they're younger guys and um so he came down to visit a few times and i talked him in moving down there with me so when we joined we joined together actually no shit yeah right on yeah we had we rode to nevada we had a ride to las vegas to a big run where they handed us our patches.

1:21:20And then they're like, put these on. But they said you have to make sure that they don't peel off. Like no other member can't grab it and peel it off. And you've got a needle and thread, and they're giving you like 20 minutes. You know, come on, come on, we're getting ready to leave. And we're trying to sew it. And I sewed it to the ironing board. I sewed my vest to the ironing board. And what sucks is that was the second time that's happened because with the outsiders when I started prospecting, they had a tradition which they'd asked me not to share. But the tradition got me a little buzzed up.

1:21:48And then they go here. So your prospect rocker's on. So it's the top rocker that said Outsiders and the bottom one that said Portland. And I'm trying to sew it onto the pool table. And I sewed the top of it into the felt of the pool table. So sewing was not my thing. Right on.

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1:22:48This isn't just something that came across my desk. It's something we're actually working into our routines. What I like is that it's simple. It's not another capsule or powder you have to add to the routine. It's just a daily 2-ounce liquid shot that tastes like mango, and it's easy to work in. New customers can save 35 % on your first month of subscription by going to dosedaily.co.srs or entering SRS at checkout. That's D-O-S-E-D-A-I-L-Y.C-O.srs for 35 % off your first month subscription. Anything significant happen with the Vargos? yeah yeah i mean so this is now this is a much bigger club i'm starting to you know in oregon there was four major clubs there and they all got along so there was no clubs at war there wasn't the violence like you know every like every club everyone thinks their club's the best right but they all party together they work together there was no um you know like big war stuff going on and when i joined the vagos at first it was like just a fun party stuff but um they were starting into kind of butt heads with the Hells Angels already.

1:24:01And they had, there was some old agreement that I didn't know of, you know, obviously it was new where there was a club called the Renegades that the Vagos told couldn't be in Nevada anymore. And, and the Hells Angels agreed to it. Well, the Renegades came back and now they've got support from the Hells Angels. The Vagos are mad. So it was, you know, these meetings about what's going to happen. And I'm sitting there thinking like, I was all excited to join a club to ride bikes and parties with my friends now we're talking about fighting hell's angels you know and i didn't even know much about hell's angels like so to me i was like crazy like that's some next level stuff right um like a suicide mission yeah dude and in fact one of the first times we we thought we might actually have to fight them is when i saw how structured and impressive they were is we were going to one of those confederation clubs where there's those are supposed to be like neutral ground but there's still a flex there you know and the vogos had some out of state guys come and we're like hey we're going to go here.

1:24:55And if those renegade guys are there, we're going to tell them they can't be here. And we think we're smart by going an hour or two early. And when we get there, the Hells Angels probably been there four hours early. And they had guys in trucks and cars that are already blocked off the exits. The guy up, you know, we're in this parking lot. There's guys up in this parking lot. Like they had guys that were roving up and down the aisles. Like they had it on lock. And I remember being super impressed about their security because I've always been into that, especially from the gang stuff, like that structure and the security and the protocol piece of it.

1:25:22and you know they had guys at the back door and the front door and i remember thinking man if something kicks off we are screwed you know um and so we had walkie-talkies i think at the time if i remember correctly or maybe it was next tell two ways it was the next tell two ways but some of the guys in our chapter were inside the meeting and we so we don't know what's going on but we're waiting for a call and then we were in a spotter car and there were some other spotter cars but it was me and my brother and two members of the vagos and this hell's angel car it kept pulling up next to us and stopping and then driving off and one of the guys said hey if they pull up next to us if they roll that window down we're gonna have to shoot like we don't shoot them before they shoot us and i'm sitting there like okay this is getting crazy and sure as shit man they pull up next to us and the window starts coming down and they start yelling shoot and i'm just like and thank god nobody should take one right when the window comes down the guy just reaches out and he like does this on the side of his car and then they drive off but i remember that was one of those moments where I was like, that's how quick these things can happen.

1:26:23Shit. And so there were some situations like that, some standoffs. There was a club in Northern California that called Hellbent that I had met their chapter and they were all younger guys. And I was really impressed because they had a president that was like 27. I was like, whoa, you can be a president at 27. And you're like, cool. And they were getting into what the hell is angels. And so they ended up joining the Vagos. So now I'm going over to Sacramento and Redding, to jessica county or i'm partying with these guys all the time because you know i'm in reno so it's like i think two three hour ride and me and my brother were so new that we wanted to to get our name out there so we were riding everything we would go reno to vegas to la sacramento we were going back to oregon like we were always on our bikes like every weekend we had in fact i got fired from the gas meter job because i was taking time off to ride all the time started selling bikes for harley davidson but you got to do that on the weekends we got fired from that because my whole focus was just, you know, I wanted to be in this club and I wanted to, like, start earning a name for myself, which is when I got my nickname Mooch.

1:27:22How'd you get that? We were on a club run to Hollister, California, and, man, it was like 114 degrees going there. It was brutal. Like, we had to pull over every 20 miles and drink water and people were passing out. And we get to this campground, and this is like one of those terrible biker parties that's out in the field there's no women there's no there's nothing we're just sitting out there's no shade even there was no trees no water and everyone was just miserable and uh normally like at these events you normally stick with your chapter so like our chapter had our own like where our tents and campground food were but we kind of all mill around together too and i remember just being exhausted and asking that my chapter president if i could go back to camp for a little bit and he goes yeah yeah we'll be back in a little bit.

1:28:06So I go back into camp and I'm sitting there and I'm eating a sandwich or a burger and the president walks back up and he goes, man, where'd you find a chair at? Because there was barely even chairs. And I was like, oh, it's Glenn's chair. And he goes, and you're cooking? I was like, yeah, yeah, Barry's cooking. He's like, where'd you get that hat? I was like, so-and-so gave it to me. He goes, didn't I give you that shirt? He goes, yeah. He goes, man, you're a fucking mooch. And I was like, all right. And he goes, he goes, well, that's your, he goes, that's your new nickname. And I was like, whatever.

1:28:31And he goes, I want you to go around introduce yourself as Mooch so you know it's new so I had to go chapter to chapter hey what's up I'm Vago Mooch from Border Town and every time I said Mooch they go Mooch huh we were like a beer or a burger or something and I go well yeah this is gonna be all right and that was it man stuck with me ever since that's right on yeah it wasn't that I ever asked for things or you know what I mean it just things worked out man they came my way and I'll say okay right on right on um but Yeah, so we did that run. We had a couple of other run-ins with Hells Angels that didn't turn violent or we got there too late.

1:29:06You know, those types of things. There was a time that the Hells Angels had raided the Vagos Clubhouse in Redding. So we got a call. We had to rush over the hill to get there. But, of course, by the time we're there, it's over. So we're just there to help with security and support. So there was these almost cold wars that we were involved in. What are the beefs over? Territory, drama. And here's when I say territory. Everyone thinks it's like drug territory or money. And I like to say that I wish that was true because it would at least make sense. Right? But it's not. It's we were here first. This is our city.

1:29:38This is our state. You can't be here. And or like in that instance, first it was they were supporting the renegades and the Vago said we can't have renegades here. And then in Shasta County, hey, that's Hell's Angels territory. And we're not going to let Vago start a chapter here. so it's just this ego of who was there first or whose area it is so when you have a help i mean how big were the vagos compared to the hell's angels a lot smaller i mean they're they're pretty big now but at the time the vagos were mainly in southern california they just moved into northern california they had two small chapters in southern oregon and then in nevada so i guess what i'm asking is are these like but i don't know any other way to describe it were Are they like feeders into the bigger clubs?

1:30:24Like a minor league ball team? You have the, I don't know, the St. Louis Cardinals and then the farm team. So there are a lot of clubs that are like that. The Vagos, so there's like, depending on who you ask, there weren't six or eight clubs that stand on their own, and then there's a lot of these other clubs that are support or farm teams. Like the Renegades, for example, they would have been a feeder club for the Angels. The Vagos are on their own. They didn't answer to another club. They didn't support another club. They were quite a bit smaller at the time, but they were their own independent club.

1:30:55Why would somebody in the Renegades want to be a feeder to the Hells Angels? Why wouldn't you just want to become a Hells Angel? So that's a very good question that people ask often. And to answer it, I'll tell you that I had support. I'd wanted to start the support club for the Mongols, but I didn't want to have like 12 different ones. I just wanted one, right? And this was years later, but it answers the question is, we developed this club called the Raiders, but it actually already existed, but I changed the program so it could be national. And what I noticed was there's a lot of people, especially now that motorcycle clubs are a lot more mainstream and popular culture that look at Mongols or one percenters and go, I can never do that.

1:31:35That's crazy. But I want to ride and have a patch and hang on the boys and go to the parties. So I'll do this one. And they take the smaller one. And then once you get into it and you're riding, you realize, okay, I'm putting in the same amount of work. The rules are pretty much the same. Then people kind of step up. It's an introduction to the lifestyle yeah but a lot of people don't necessarily do it so they could say oh i'm gonna go from here to here a lot of people say oh that's a better fit for me because maybe you got a good job and a family and you're trick yourself into thinking it's the club that engineers it they engineer it is that what you're saying the club engineers it so that it's a it's like a baby step when it comes to direct support clubs for sure when it comes to some of those smaller clubs there's a lot of people that want to wear a patch and be involved in a club but don't want to be involved in a major club.

1:32:21They don't want the wars and the drama and the stuff that goes with it. But they still want this brotherhood and wear a patch. And in order to do that, often, you have to be affiliated with whatever club's in that state, whatever the dominant club is in that region. So if you want to say you and eight guys wanted to start a chapter in Nevada, you're going to have to find out who the local, you know, who the big club was there and then have to get their permission. And to get their permission half the time, they're going to say, yeah, but you got to wear the support patch or, you know, you got to come to our parties.

1:32:50What about something like the Booze Fighters? Do they fall under it? I mean, that's a national club. It might be an international club, huh? I think so. That's a good question. They're definitely national. They're big. So I think, A, they've existed longer than most clubs, so maybe they're already in some of these regions. But what I have seen, they definitely don't answer to any other club or they don't support any other club. They stand on their own. But due to politics and because of the levels of where club stuff goes, state by state, they're probably aligned. Like if you go to Washington, maybe they're aligned with the angels.

1:33:22And then over here, they're aligned with the banditos. And when I say aligned, I don't mean like they're following their rules, but those are their friends, like they're friendly with, because it's the politics of that state. And these major 1 % clubs operate on a different level. So they have to have these cordial relations. Like the booze fighters don't want to go with the war to the hell's angels, right? So they want to keep things cordial. So they keep things political at their meetings, but they're not stepping on each other's toes and taking each other's members or you know all those things that stir the pot all right where do we go from here okay vagos i'm getting ready to leave the vagos because um i had just moved back to oregon and i transferred to a vagu chapter there one of the vagos there had owned um a tile company and so i was learning how to lay tile saying okay maybe this is still searching for this career i can do where I can be a biker, still work, right?

1:34:15And popular contrary, people think you can join a motorcycle club and make money, but it just costs money, man. You're getting, you're paying dues, you're on the road all the time, you're going to events. And at least every club I've been in discourages any sort of major illegal activity. Because if me and you were in a chapter and you're selling a bunch of drugs and you get busted, it's going to affect me, it's going to affect everyone else in the circle. So there wasn't like opportunity where you join this club and you're like, cool, that's what I do for a living now, right? Like it was on Sons of Anarchy and all this stuff.

1:34:43There's individuals sometimes in different clubs that do illegal stuff. I always chose, I known a lot of people and I networked a lot. So potentially maybe I could have gotten into drug dealing if I wanted to, but I watched my dad go to prison for it. And I always said, you know, I would, I'd rather be poor and free than be the guy with the flashing cash around and quick money and then end up going to prison over it. So it's just, to me, I was always looking for a career or like a, you know, an actual paycheck, but trying to balance that where you're on the road and trying to be active. And especially in a young age with not a lot of work experience outside of being in a band and some retail stuff, it was a challenge.

1:35:15And so when I got offered that tile position, I was like, okay, the guy that owns it, DeVago. So he can, he makes it work. He's still active and he, and he, you know, and a lot of those trades you make good money too. So I moved up there to work for him. And as soon as I moved there, I saw that the two chapters in Oregon didn't like each other and at first I was thinking you know we're all the same club right so it's probably just some egos or whatever but around this time one of the vagos that actually met that Hollister run Wild Bill when I got my nickname he got shot off his bike and killed in California Southern California and there was rumors that it could have been with from the club he was a member and it could have been from another chapter and that didn't sit right with me like I was again I joined a motorcycle club to ride bikes and party, you know, and if we have to defend ourselves, I'm down.

1:36:01But being in a club where you might have to worry about your own club killing you, I couldn't even fathom it. Like there's no brotherhood in that. And I'm not saying that that club does that. But what I'm saying is at that time, that is what had happened. And now here we are in Oregon, that club that had patched over in Shasta County, they were having a big meeting with the state leaderships, like the the Northern California boss or rep for the Vagos was coming to this meeting. And they'd asked us to show up to like as support to be there and hear what's talked about, maybe supportive. And as I show up, I'm here, you know, in my vest and I'm with the Redding guys.

1:36:41We're all in our patches. And then this, the state boss comes in with all these guys from this Sacramento North Sacramento chapter. And none of them are wearing anything that says Vagos, none of them wear a thing, anything that says anything green, they're wearing leather gloves and they're frisking everyone going into this meeting. And I was like, man, this is how we treat each other. You know, like this, A, it's some bully shit, but B, it's like, this is supposed to be out brotherhood. So it was already, those two things were already on my mind. And then the final straw was, I mean, we're in church talking about, which is our weekly meetings.

1:37:11And because of what we just saw in Shasta County, that state boss said he was coming up to try and work things out between the two chapters in Oregon, and then weren't getting along. And we saw how they worked things out in Shasta County, right? So my president's talking about where we're going to stash guns in the clubhouse if we have to defend ourselves. And I remember thinking, like, what the hell am I doing here, man? We got to defend ourselves against the chapter that's across town. And so that was kind of the beginning of the end of that club for me. When I was living in Nevada, I'd met a Mongol who turned out to be a confidential informant the whole time, which I hadn't known.

1:37:51but you know he was going to church there i remember when i moved there my cousin goes oh we know a mongol goes to our church um and that wasn't something i'd heard of or thought before okay and then he would do this stuff where uh he was into martial arts and he was a fighter and he would do those demonstrations where like he would break through ice or punch coconuts and stuff like that and uh had a reputation as a tough guy but he i wouldn't say he was that cool even but he was cordial and when i told him i was moving to oregon he said i think we have members up there. If you ever need anything, give him a call.

1:38:20So I had his business card and there wasn't any up there, but I had his card. And then right when all this is going on, the Mongols had a new website. I'm just funny to say out loud, but either way, they had this website and Doc Cavazos was the national president of Mongols at the time. And this was in a period where he was really pushing expansion across the country. So they were starting new chapters all over and he had put on the website, you know, Mongol Nation welcomes the Oregon chapters. Well, I know now that there was, I think, one guy. They didn't really have an Oregon chapter. But at the time, I had called them up and said, hey, you know, I'm from here.

1:38:58I know a bunch of people. If you guys need anything, let me know. We can ride around together. I'll introduce you, show you around places. And it was kind of like my introduction to that club because now we're talking back and forth. I'm talking to their national leadership. What drew you to them originally? What about that specific club? They have a rule that Mongols can't fight Mongols. There's nothing two brothers can't sit down and talk about. And that was the biggest piece for me. Is that the only club that has that? The Outsiders had that rule too. But as far as national clubs, I believe so.

1:39:32What are maybe the top five clubs? Well, there's Hell's Angels and Outlaws, which is the most well-known. I would say the Mongols are up there now. The Pagans, Sons of Silence, and probably Vagos now. Oh, and Bandidos is a big one, probably one of the biggest, actually. What are they known for? What are the characteristics, the culture? In the early eras, I mean, even right before I joined, it was more a reed. Like, if you went to Texas or down south, it was likely Bandidos. If you were in the Midwest, then it was outlaws. If you were on the East Coast, it was pagans. If you were in California, it was Northern California, it was Hell's Angels.

1:40:12If it was Southern California, it was Mongols, Vagos, Hell's Angels. Banditos were also up in Montana and up there. So it's kind of like they had their own little regions, and that was the big dominant club for each region. Any specific characteristics? I mean, the Mongols were primarily Hispanic. The Vagos, both because they came from Southern California, had that more kind of gang culture, Hispanic culture, kind of like that car club slash street gang culture. The pagans, at least that era of the pagans, were like still really grungy old school biker dudes um so yeah it just kind of depended on like what that region was like but but it was more the a resolved reflection of the culture right southern california versus texas right the banditos looked like they came from texas they had a handful i mean they had a good amount of hispanic members too um and then a lot of the clubs the most other clubs were all pretty predominantly white okay any any anything like this was the most ruthless club this is i think every club will say they they were but um you know at the time the mongols were known as the most violent motorcycle club because of all the public stuff that had happened you know laughlin had happened in 2000 was it 2002 what was that that was when the hell's angels and Mongols got into a shootout at the casino in Laughlin, Nevada.

1:41:37And what was it? Three, one Mongol died and two Hells Angels. Yeah, three people I think were killed. But, you know, it was a huge public shooting. It was all over the news. Were you a part of that? No, I joined in 2007. Okay. But that was like the first, one of the first big, like nationally known fights between the two. And so also when the Mongols started, they were very small. And they went to, their war started with the Hells Angels in the early 70s, and we're talking bombings and shootings. And the Mongols didn't get wiped off the map, in fact, grew and got bigger and are still here. And so they were known as just this violent club that took care of themselves, took care of each other, supported each other.

1:42:16So there was this big brotherhood piece, but there was also like they can stand up on their own because even the Hell's Angels couldn't wipe them out. What's the history of the Mongols? How did it start? So the Mongols started in 1969 in Montebello, California. There was a group of, I want to say there was nine guys, but it could have been six. But there was a small group of guys that had come from the car culture that wanted to get into motorcycle clubs. And they had met at their garage meeting about, hey, we want to do a club. And they went out and they were hanging out with this club called the Molochs, which were big in that area at the time.

1:42:50And as they hung out, the Molochs wanted to, told them what prospecting was like and hanging around. And they wanted to treat them a certain way. And the Mongols thought they were above that treatment, these guys. And so they said, well, why don't we just start our own club? And so they got together and they called their club the Mongols. You know, the misconception is that we hear in the media a lot is that the Mongols, the guys that started the Mongols, weren't allowed in the Hells Angels because they were Hispanic. But the Hells Angels had plenty of Hispanic members, especially back then. I mean, not even especially, but I mean, there was plenty back then, too.

1:43:19And so, I mean, there's just some false narrative that I'm honestly not even sure it came from other than it's like Coke versus Pepsi, right? The Mexican club and American club. Like, I think it's just more of an easier way to describe the two's adversity. But it was like where a lot of clubs started. It was just in that era of a group of guys got together, were riding bikes, and they saw, like, the booze fighters and the popular culture of, you know, Hells Angels on Wheels and all these different movies that were coming out, and they wanted to start their own club. Right on.

1:43:49I am a little curious, too. I mean, I know you're craving the brotherhood. a brotherhood but why didn't you go with something that was not a one percent club so at first i did with the outsiders they weren't a one percenter club um but like i said to me they were at the time right because that's all i knew the vagos weren't a one percenter club when i was in at the time they they are they are now but they weren't considered one percenter club when i was in um so to me it was almost like a step like i was learning the process learning the program and It was kind of a step up. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that would be the best way to describe it.

1:44:33And also, like I said, when I get into it, I just want to be, to me, it would be, especially young me with the ego, it would be hard for me to be at a bike event thinking, hey, me and my club were top shit, and then the other club comes in, and we're like, shh. You know what I mean? So just my personality, I think, attracted to me to want to be in the more dominant club. that the caveat to that is when I did join the Mongols, there was no Mongols in Oregon. So I started the first chapter there. So we weren't this, they might've been really big in California, but we were unknown. No one really even knew what Mongols were at the time and we were severely outnumbered.

1:45:11So it was almost like starting from square one in your own club. Right on. See, shit. So there was one Mongol in Oregon at the time. Yeah, yeah. We kicked him out pretty shortly after that. he uh he wasn't our type of dude no he was a truck driver he didn't have a bike he didn't have a bike no he was from some club called the loners and i don't know if he was between bikes or what his deal was but he was a truck driver so he was never around and i think i don't know how they brought him in for why but when we started they were like oh yeah we got this one guy up there and we went mad with him and we're like yeah no this ain't gonna work dude same for you um but yeah so i had was making these calls trying to you know introduce people we'll see if we can meet and i had talked to my time my whole chapter which was the south valley vagos were not cool with all the stuff that was going on and again i'm new to the vagos yeah so that like the internal fighting okay um and then there was just the you know the politics club politics and stuff they weren't happy with certain things and i was still new and naive so i didn't really know much about it or be involved in any of that i know it was only in the vagos for just I had two years.

1:46:18So, you know, I'm still learning, but I was telling my president Magpie that, Hey, I know a guy in the Mongols, like we had gone out to lunch and I remember him saying he had been in a smaller club that became Vago. So he said, man, I was already in another club. The only other club I joined is the Mongols. Otherwise, like, I guess the club was not for me. And I was like, well, Hey, I know a Mongol and I've been talking to these guys. So I reached out and asked to get, I reached out to that informant and Coconut Dan and it asked him, hey, who's your boss? Like, who can I talk to? And so someone from the, the model's governing body is called Mother Chapter.

1:46:56So someone from their Mother Chapter called me and we're kind of shooting the shit. And I said, well, hey man, here's the thing, we're interested in patching over. And I said, initially it was supposed to be my whole chapter, but the way politics and stuff goes, you know, people were talking behind each other's backs and these guys were deciding, okay, well, if Magpie was the president, if he goes, that means if I stay, I could be the president. And there was this stupid politics stuff. So, um, but initially I thought there was going to be, you know, six or eight of us. And so the president or the, they do from other chapter of the Mongols, he says, well, I'll tell you what, we're going to be at Daytona bike week.

1:47:33And I don't know, something like say a month. Um, this was in March. No, it was October. It was because it was by Oktoberfest. So he goes, why don't you fly out here, spend the weekend with me and some of the Mongols and, you know, we'll talk and see if it's for you. Looking back, crazy. So I fly out there by myself. Don't know these guys. Didn't bring anybody with me. Never even been there. I'm still wearing a Vago t-shirt for who knows why I thought that was a good idea. Because in club life, in theory, I was supposed to tell my chapter, hey, I'm going to be out of state. And if you're in another, there wasn't Vagos out there at the time, but still that means I should have told national leadership.

1:48:10I'm going to be over here. Like anytime you're going to wear your patch somewhere we're not at, you have to get clearance and all that. But I was, you know, cocky young me, I didn't care. Shortly before, maybe a few months before that, the Vagos had started, tried to start a chapter in Georgia and the outlaws had shut it down. And so there won't be Vagos out here. I don't know, paying attention to any of this, right? I'm just a cool young guy. So I fly out there in my Vagos shirt and meet up with these Mongols and we're going out and we go to the strip club the shark tank and as soon as i walk in i saw two outlaws and they were sitting in the corner and i'd never seen an outlaw in my life to this time right they were out in the east or midwest and south and um there was two older guys and i remember thinking this this is this badass club here the outlaws these are two older guys you know and these bigger all the bouncers they were really big dudes and they were kind of i i noticed they were kind of corralling us to a certain spot and they kept going hey you guys got weapons that's if you do we'll stash them back like they were trying to take our weapons from us.

1:49:09And I started paying more attention and they were wearing like one percenter necklaces and rings. And these guys were outlaws. And what I didn't know is the outlaws and that Mongol boss that I was with were having a scheduled meeting. And that's why we were there. So, you know, I'm there as a guest, so I can't ask all these questions. You know, I'm just like, oh, we're cool. We're going out. The Mongols had just started a chapter in Florida and the outlaws weren't real happy about it.

1:49:35So So I'm standing there and just now figuring out, hey, all these guys that are corralling us here, they're outlaws. And I just hear this roar of bikes. And I'd say 15, 20 outlaws come rolling in. And at the time, their national president was there. He's up front. He's wearing overalls, this big, tall guy. And he's wearing overalls, no shirt. He's covered in white power tattoos. He had like, his head was big bald, but his sideburns were grown out and he had these swastika beads in them. I mean, like he was a presence, you know? And I just remember feeling this real tension. And him and the Mongol boss walked out in the back of this strip club.

1:50:12And they wouldn't let anyone else go out there. And next thing you know, it's five minutes, 10 minutes, 20, 30 minutes. And I noticed these Mongols I'm with are starting to get uncomfortable. The outlaws are posted up all around like security. You know, they got guys in the corner. And any time that informant, Coconut Dan, he went to go check on the president because he was the Sarge of that chapter. And first they told him he couldn't go out there. and then they pulled him out there and then he didn't come back. You know, everyone's starting to think, fuck, dude, it's pretty sketchy. And so I got up just to take a leak and an outlaw pushes me and says, go back to your chair, go back to your table.

1:50:44So now it's me and there's three Mongols with me. One of them, my son's passed, but me and Dozer and then two other guys. And I remember them thinking like, this isn't good, dude. Like, I don't know if we're going to get out of here, you know? And I remember texting my twin brother going, yeah, I don't know if I'm coming home from this one, you know? And I remember the Mongols looked at me and they said, hey, listen, dude, you're not a Mongol. You're a guest. You can leave. And it just wasn't in me to leave. I showed up with them. I was going to leave with them. So I sucked it up and stayed. And things looked worse than they were.

1:51:17And we ended up leaving. But because I stuck by, I had a meeting with them. And they said, hey, man, you're welcome to join the club if that's what you want to do. So I went home and rounded up the guys I had. And then we had to go to Nevada and do like a formal interview where we met with some like old school, the leadership guys. And then they do a background check and all that stuff. And then we got the OK to join. A background check? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. If you join the Mongols, there's like an application packet. And like, I mean, you go back to where you went to grade school, who your high school friends were, where it was your first job.

1:51:50Because they have private investigators that look into all this stuff to make sure you are who you say you are. and another important part too is make sure that you know you're not a child sex offender or you know an informant or a snitch or someone had told you know any of those types of things so they do this this detailed background check but what's crazy about it is um you know feds can figure things out and there was when i joined in 2007 2008 was operation black rain which was a i think five-year undercover investigations the mongols they had six undercover atf agents three were males that were members.

1:52:23The other three were their wives, their wives. And they had all gone through the same background checks. In fact, passed lie detector tests and the whole time they were undercover federal agents. So the background check couldn't really catch. I guess my argument with the background check stuff was always that, right? Like A, how are you going to find out someone's an informant? Because a lot of times they get caught doing something while they're in the club and then they start telling on people there's no vetting process for that, right and b it's the federal government man they have these guys got made up secure social security numbers background checks everything else um and so if they really want to they're going to figure it out i know like for me it was easier in oregon because i grew up there i knew it even if i didn't someone starts coming around if they grew up there i can find someone i know that went to high school with his friend or you know what i mean or something like that but as the club got national and bigger um you know they couldn't really do that and so when doc was bringing all these people into the club, you know, he was letting whoever join.

1:53:19And so for the idea of, hey, we're going to be in all these new states, but it brought in those three undercover guys. There was three ATF agents that were out on the East Coast that later became outlaws before they ended their investigation, and they were started as Mongols in Virginia and Baltimore. So, like, you know, through this expansion brought in a lot of undercover agents.

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1:55:16What kind of stuff were they asking you for the interview or onboarding? What did you call it, initiation? Yeah, it was an interview. It was pretty much an interview. It was one of the most serious dudes in the club, so I want to respect very much. And, you know, why do you want to join? What were you doing before? What did you say? well i i had told him i really liked that the brothers you know brothers couldn't um kill each other that brothers weren't even allowed to fight each other so the mongols had a really good reputation for like brotherhood like the focus was brotherhood and i don't mean the word i mean like everyone stuck up for each other like we instead of being like portland chapter or salem chapter we were the mongols like everyone especially once oregon grew like we rolled as one big chapter so it's just the support and the you know riding in the big groups and the packs and the big parties.

1:56:03But on top of that, the Mongols had a reputation. No one messed with them. The Hells Angels didn't even fuck with them anymore. So that was obviously attractive. And also the fact that if they did, we have all the support. And I think too, what helps is, so when I started it, I was the president because there was no one else there. I mean, I was elected by the group of guys we started with, but I had spearheaded it, so I became the president. And it didn't take long before I realized. So the Mongols have a constitution and a whole booklet of bylaws. But as long as you follow those, you can kind of run whatever program you want.

1:56:36And I remember that it was an opportunity for me. Like everyone goes, why didn't you join one of the local clubs that were over in Oregon? But these dudes were, back then at least too, they were that old school biker. Like these dudes, there was guys that were doing meth. These guys are stealing bikes. And even outside of that stuff, there were just a different culture of people, you know, where the Mongols gave me this opportunity where I could come in and kind of build a chapter and then eventually a region based off more of my morals and values and still be a clean cut and, you know, but do all the same stuff.

1:57:08But I had more freedom to do that. And if any of the other clubs told me we couldn't be here and try to stop us, well, now I've got the backing of a national motorcycle club. I always thought that was interesting. I actually looked into doing this. I didn't get very far. But when I was contracting for CIA, I was looking at this. and I kept reading about it and watching everything I could get my hands on. And I saw, I read a bunch of different times that it was, one of the ways to make money was stealing other people's bikes. And I just never, I was like, why the fuck are a bunch of motorcycle enthusiasts stealing each other's fucking bikes?

1:57:46It just never made any damn sense to me. It makes no sense. And in my era, there's no money in it because everything's stamped. You know, like those early bike eras, I think probably even through the 80s, maybe 90s, that's why everyone has custom choppers, right? So you take pieces off this bike, put them on that bike. They had swap meets where they're selling parts. But nowadays, I mean, Harley and the government, they've all gotten, you know, every piece of that motor you've got over there has a stamp on it, a serial number or anything, you know, on the outside of the cases. And then you have to get now, you know, everything has to be registered.

1:58:15And like, so if you bought, say you steal a bike,$15 ,000 motorcycle off the showroom floor, it's probably two grand worth of money. it it's like what's the point you know um but yeah that was a thing back then for sure and it was kind of probably dying out by the time i was around but it was there were still clubs and dudes that were known for doing it and and i think to go more towards what you're getting at is there's this elitist mentality in a motorcycle club right like where you guys are all you guys are all wannabes you're the rich bikers the yuppies you know the starbucks bikers so you're trying to bite our culture we're gonna dentists and the attorneys yeah exactly you're gonna ride down at starbucks well watch this we're gonna steal your fucking bike okay so i and i'm not saying that morally that's okay at all but i can imagine that was that mindset you know like we were the ones living this life um we weren't stealing each other's bikes you know okay i mean i want to be clear i never sold anybody's bikes when i say we just mean that culture you know what other kind of questions were they asking you um that was i mean because i'd come from the vagos you know there was obviously the why would i choose one club over the other which i had explained um if was there going to be any issue which there was what other clubs were in what other clubs were in oregon were they going to have an issue which they did um but kind of seeing like is it worth bringing these guys in is it are they gonna was it gonna be a headache is it gonna be more trauma um what i do for a living because they you know they don't want to bring in a bunch of drug dealers and um you know those types of things like to get a sense of a my background but be like what we're going to do like what our priority is or our goals or are we going to come in and create a bunch of drama or are we going to come in and be able to run a good program and be successful and grow you know I mean, I understand why they would have put you there because of the network, but at the same time, you're new to the program, at least this one, the Mongol program.

2:00:07It wasn't - You're not immersed in their culture. Why would they have not taken somebody that was deep in their program to bring that exact culture to Oregon versus somebody like you? The way that it worked would never have worked other than that time period. And by that is exactly, so normally for like when I moved to the Midwest, then I start telling chapters there because I've already been in a club 10 years, right? You normally wouldn't start a state with guys that weren't around the club, didn't come from the area, didn't know the history. I just happened to come in under that last 10-month window of Dakavas being a president where they were just letting people join so they can plant a flag in a new state.

2:00:52Any other leadership wouldn't have allowed it. In fact, because I came from the Vagos, most of the time, most of the clubs and the Mongols had agreements later on with the Vagos that we couldn't take their ex-members. A lot of the big clubs don't take members from other bigger clubs. So I probably would have been denied for that too. Why is that? Why won't they take a member? They think it's a mole or something? Potentially, but no, it's more than just the drama that comes with it, right? Like when I left the Vagos, there was a contract out on my life. I mean, I never used to believe in those things, but the ATF came to my house in front of my mom.

2:01:24it's intercepted some letters in prison where there's some oregon vagos were trying to get somebody to come kill us because we'd left right we was disrespectful then we left and not only did i leave but i took about 12 guys with me because i had the oregon guys i took eventually i packed all those guys in redding that i was telling you about their vagos i brought we made them all mongols i brought two guys in from vegas a guy from reno so you know we we poached out of their pond essentially and so there's this that again goes to ego but it's also disrespect um so it especially with other national clubs right like say we take um a member of of the outlaws for example and on the east coast we're all close friends but now we did this so this this state's mad at us and the mongols every club runs a little different but the way the mongols work is if you put hands on a mongol in oakland you have beef with the mongols everywhere you know it's it's not like oh that's a florida issue or that's it's everywhere and so taking someone from other club and then stirring up problems like that now the whole club is fighting another club because you are because you're guys.

2:02:25And so it's usually discouraged. Gotcha. So you make it. I make it, yeah. Send you back up there. So I was already back, you know, I was back in Oregon on this tile thing. They sent me back up there. I get the guys together. At the time, the Vagos had a rule, and I don't know if it still is or not, but there used to be this old school rule in all the old school clubs that you had to sign your title over to the club, and if you ever quit or were out in bad, they kept your bike. it was kind of an antiquated rule because this was back when people owned their motorcycles there were choppers or something you know and by the time i was around most people were financing their bikes there isn't a title to sign over um and i also think they found out later that if you try to leave the club and me and six guys keep hounding you and trying to steal from you we're just pushing you into the arms of law enforcement anyways right like it's it's uh i don't know i just don't think it was a good a good rule but either way um the vagas were attempting to take my motorcycle because i had lived at this apartment with other tile layers that all worked for this vagas company um so i had to go get my bike back before they got it and then we just kind of separated ties and and started trying to build our own program and and uh it's crazy to think about man because everything worked out in these like right times otherwise it wouldn't have existed.

2:03:47Like the Gypsy Jokers are the biggest club in Oregon. They're a very reputable gangster S1 %er club. And they had a rule or should probably do that there's no other black and white, no other clubs with the colors of black and white in Oregon. And then no other 1 %er clubs in Oregon. And then here comes my 25 year old ass and her, let's see, by now I'm 27. Me and four or five other guys. And they probably got 80 in the whole state and we're like yeah well here we are um we started in eugene oregon where this club the free souls have been there since the 60s they were the only one that got to claim eugene and here we are so we kind of you know put our thumb in the eye of all these disrespectfully these clubs that were hey we're established here's the rule we all get along fine and then we show up and uh no one was getting along anymore you show up with four or five other people so six of you yeah we started with six i did what is your first when they tell you hey you're gonna stand this up in oregon what what is your first move with this with these four or five other guys well at first i thought we're gonna have closer to 12 and then i come back and find out that that chapter was like no we're staying with the vagos you're on your own and in fact my president when i was in the vagos my chapter president was this guy named magpie he's the one we had the lunch together you know but i had like i went out and put in the work but it was you know we were on board with it when he found out the whole chapter wasn't going to go.

2:05:07He wanted to stay and be loyal to his chapter. So he did the right thing and stayed with the Vagos. And to reward him, they made him a, took his presidency away. They made him a prospect. They had him running like menial errands. This has got to start, you know, help run that chapter. Disrespected him to the point that, you know, I went and picked him up and said, hey, come on, dude. They obviously, you know, they don't want you here and it should come with us in the beginning. So that's interesting, too, because you had mentioned that during the interview, they don't want you pulling from other clubs and starting all kinds of fucking drama.

2:05:40And here you are going right back, going to the Vagos. Come on, boys. So at that time, there was obviously immediate issues because a handful of us already came from there, right? So, I mean, there was already that beef between us and our chapter now. So I don't even think it did anything. It stoked the fires. I think it was already going. And on top of that, they were running him off by the way they were treating him. So I think they kind of assumed that was going to happen anyways. Okay. But our issue wasn't bad with them at the time because they were down in southern Oregon and we were up in the valley, you know, Salem, Portland area.

2:06:16And so they were three hours away. So like we didn't really, we weren't bumping into each other at bars and stuff like that. So it was more of a rumor mill thing or if we were passing through type stuff. But as far as people putting hands on each other, it never escalated to that. Okay. What else are you thinking about other than personnel? Not getting shot off our bikes. Well, so these other clubs are telling us we can't be there. And then at the same time, Now, law enforcement, they don't want a new national club in the area. So we got, now we're getting followed everywhere we go. We can't go to a bar without eight cops out front.

2:06:53You know, first time I ever met an ATF agent, you know, we're standing in front of a hotel. This ATF agent comes to walk up to warn us that these other clubs are out looking for us. And so it's like things get real intense real quick. And again, it's so easy to get caught in the shuffle from going, hey, I want to be in a motorcycle club to hang out my brother's ride and party. And now it's like, if we want to be doing this, things are serious. It's a wartime club, and every club here wants to kill us. So we no longer were just party mode. It was militant mode. Do you have an HQ? A headquarters?

2:07:34So Mongols are different for the fact that they've been at war forever. having a clubhouse is a dead giveaway of where you're going to be at it's a target right for the enemy and so no i mean we ended up having clubhouses in oregon 10 years later when we're now getting along with every club there and uh it was great to have a place to do meetings and you know meet for rides and throw parties but at this time it was better for us not to have one so where would you meet different people's houses garages i mean we moved in around a lot i didn't want anyone to be able to to i did this optics game where we'd have a lot of my friends from the punk rock and skinhead scene and stuff like that would support us and hang out um and at the time we were allowed to have support shirts that said the word mongols on it like every club is different how that goes but um like the hell's angels for example they don't have any support shirt that says support hell's angels it'll say support red and white support big red machine but if you see a t-shirt that says hell's angel they're they're a member gotcha mongols would have support models or stuff like that or different logos especially back then it wasn't as strict so you know most people wouldn't be able to look at and say oh that's a member or a supporter and so i was putting support shirts on all the homies and so and if we went to a bar sometimes we wouldn't wear our patch because i don't want to say hey there's three patch holders and eight friends we would just all wear t-shirts that said models on it or support stuff so i was always trying to make us look bigger than we were um you know obviously for safety reasons um and optics And then on top of that, I started, I learned this going through it kind of as I'll go, but it was this low risk, high reward is what I would call it, is that these clubs, say the Gypsy Jokers, for example, they definitely were a warrior club.

2:09:20I'm not saying that they weren't at this time, but a lot of the members either hadn't had any altercations or beef in a long time or were newer guys that hadn't lived through it. so although they were the dominant club their program or their structure wasn't the same as say a wartime club and what i mean by that is like one guy would go to a bar over here this guy hangs out over here like when the mongols won't go out we'd go out together we'd have a chase vehicle we'd have i mean we were running a program we walk into a bar and and someone had already scouted it before we got in there when we're in there there's people watching we go to the bathroom in pairs uh no one's ever like if me and you were talking there's someone watching our backs like and and a lot of it was the optics of those guys have their shit together i don't want to mess with them right which kept people especially when it came to like drama from frat boys and drunks hard target um yeah and and especially for the clubs that notice exactly and so i was doing a lot of that but also what i wanted to show these people is that if you motorcycle clubs going to war isn't just like cool when you guys are all together at the swap meet we're all together to swap meet we're gonna go heads up right it goes on spills onto the streets And so I wanted these guys to know, hey, if you're going to put hands on any of my guys, this is going to change the way you live your life.

2:10:33And so, for example, if I knew one guy from the other club was going to the same bar every Wednesday at 6, three or four of us might show up and have a drink and then leave. But he'd see us. If I knew this guy rode his bike a certain way to or from work, we might be hanging out at the stop sign when he cruised through. Never did anything to him. But they had to have that peace of mind where they go, okay, so if one of my guys attacks these guys, they know the way I ride to work. They know the bars that hang out. Now I can't go here. Now I can't go there. And it really made people rethink getting involved, right, or escalating because they saw they were going to have to change the way they live.

2:11:06We were already living this way. We already went out in groups and did it. You know, we already had this program set up for it. And so I think that kept the violence at bay. Right on. Right on. Wow. Shit. How fast did you grow it? pretty quick so it pretty quick i would say so it was november of 2007 was our first chapter um we started a second chapter about three months later up in portland which there were still smaller chapters you know holy shit but you know and also i lived here right so i know a lot a lot of people i know a lot of younger people that were just getting into harleys that didn't want to be riding around the older groups a lot of us were all from the same circle and punk rock so you know the connection piece helped quite a bit but then in april i got busted and it was all over the news mongol leader is you know going to jail mongol leader attempts to run law enforcement off the road mongol leader attempted kidnapping on federal agents it's everywhere and uh man media media plays a lot where all of a sudden a lot of people go oh dude the mongols are here and especially as I fought my case and it was on the news about me speaking out about that it was BS case and I was getting targeted by law enforcement people that supported people that saw that law enforcement was targeting us or didn't like that wanted they made them want to support us and so it wasn't just that our name got out there it was the the mission or the image where they were like wow these these guys because you know a lot of stuff that I was arguing eventually in my trial was that we're not the working especially we weren't a criminal organization like we chose this club because of the support and the backup but we're running our own program and um you know we had like a no methamphetamine rule later on years down the road we'll have more influence everyone had to work out three days a week everyone had visible means of income like we were trying to make this a positive thing everybody had to work out three days yeah yeah and once I got into regional leadership I had rules that everyone had to work out three days a week so you implemented an entire program yeah yeah Yeah, yeah.

2:13:12And you know why? Because when I first started coming around with those 1 %er clubs, even the outsiders, these old-timers would go, hey, welcome to the nightmare. You're going to lose your old lady. You're going to lose your job. You're probably going to lose your freedom. And I was thinking, well, what the fuck, man? This doesn't sound honest. This doesn't sound like a good deal. And then I'm bringing people in too, right? And a lot of these people I went to high school with or whatever, like I wouldn't go, hey, what's up, man? You want to join my club so I can ruin your fucking life? You know, I wanted people to say, and maybe it's ego or maybe it's personal accountability, but I didn't want to even go, oh man, I started hanging out in Mooch and my life went downhill.

2:13:43So I wanted to try and make this, like bring as much positivity to it. Now don't get me wrong, there's violence, there's threats of getting killed all the time, there's threats of going to prison for violence. So there's threats there, but I wanted to very least make it that, man, these guys got me on a workout program. I mean, eventually I became a therapist, I got guys sitting in church telling me how they feel. We're talking about men being able to express emotions. Like, I'm trying to make this a positive thing, you know? We had a no methamphetamine rule because— You implemented that? The no meth rule was just in my regions.

2:14:15How many people did that piss off? Man, see, my regions were different because I started a lot of those chapters. There was a lot of guys that, like, I resonated with or got along with, so we were on the same page. We didn't have a lot of the old-timer dudes that were into that. But, I mean, here's the other thing. There's always going to be people fight back because we're outlaws, one percenters, and we got a shitload of rules, and I have even more rules. Before we go into all the rules and stuff that you implemented, what is the mission? It's like I've talked to Mel about it. I've talked to George Christie about it.

2:14:51It kind of clicks, but it kind of doesn't. I mean, it sounds like it's...

2:15:00I just don't fucking get it. It's a lifestyle, not an occupation. Absolutely. and the mission gets lost in the shuffle you know the mission for me was i went from a street gang to wanting to still have that you know sense of that that sense of belonging and people to go to go out with and party with and ride bikes with and it goes from that to all of a sudden now you're defending yourself now all these other clubs want to kill you and now you're kind of thrust into this other life and now you got these blinders on where now we're militant now we're running a certain way now we have this new program like it it just keeps it i don't want to even say evolving because it's not it's escalating well nobody can i mean nothing will create a brotherhood faster than a bunch of people trying to fucking kill a group of dudes absolutely i can attest to that yeah and and i mean that's a lot of you know a lot of the guys that come to motorcycle clubs come from military and then they get out and they're seeking that a the brotherhood But where a lot of people miss, it's that thrill, right?

2:16:00The adrenaline. And especially that shared trauma, shared adrenaline. Like we're on the road together. Man, two of us just got shot at over here. Like we're still here. Whoa. You know, those types of things. And it's like, hey, unless you've been through it, you can't describe it. But it's one of those things that obviously makes everyone tight. I mean, imagine a group of six guys where every other club in that state wants to kill you. We got pretty damn close. You know? And there was, you know, we're so, we were still young kids, and even as adults, there's so many times where we're just fucking around at the clubhouse, laughing, telling jokes and, you know, talking shit.

2:16:37I mean, that's the other thing that, you know, I mean, you had mentioned earlier, you were, I mean, it was the party, too, right? It was the party. Absolutely. I'm sure there's plenty of meth at parties, plenty of women at parties, plenty of booze at parties. Is it partying every night? No, no, because, you know, and I guess that's part of that too, some of that stuff I implemented. So, you know, we're an outlaw club. We're not supposed to be able to tell you we can and can't do. So telling someone they can't do drugs is crazy, right? That's what I think. But, and I had initially had no hard drug policy at all, but I just found out people were doing cocaine behind my back because it is a lot of partying, you know?

2:17:16the reason that I struck with no methamphetamine and thankfully like I said a lot of the guys that I was around weren't guys that did meth anyways was because if you're doing any type of drug say it's coke or even weed we've sent guys to rehab Mongols have their own rehab center like in Pasadena owned and run by Mongols I mean the public can go to it but that's like if you're a Mongol member and you're struggling that's where we'll send you if we have a member that's struggling with addiction we don't kick them out we try and help them and And what we say is struggling is we notice if now you're not paying your dues, you're not showing up to meetings, you're not getting your workouts in, eventually one of the workout rules, but you're being a flake, all the things that come up being a drug addict, right?

2:17:55Then we're going to step in and we're going to get involved. I feel like recreational drugs is a personal choice. It shouldn't affect everyone else. As long as you're not, you know, there was always a no needle rule from like since the 60s because, you know, you can't be strung out and ride a bike. But also for me, when it came to methamphetamine, I've seen the lives of ruined. I'd seen that it's not something people do recreationally. Next thing you know, you know, they're stealing or lying or whatever. Right. And then a lot of those, I don't know if those piss people off or not, but it is what it is.

2:18:26A lot of people that are living that methamphetamine lifestyle become snitches, informants. Like there's, it's, it's not a trust. There's no trust. There's, it's a moral value, right? It becomes, it becomes a personal trait and it brings no benefit to the group. Like if a guy is spun out on anything like that, what value does he bring to the group? I agree with him. And so that was my thing. If we're all at a party and some dudes are doing coke so they can stay up later tonight for a night, like whatever, dude. To me, it's no different than everyone drinking alcohol, right? The flip is because we were at a wartime club, we didn't get drunk at bars.

2:19:00We weren't allowed to be, we had a two drink limit everywhere we went. If we want to get drunk, it was at the house or the clubhouse, but we wouldn't be drunk in public. There's no way. And in fact, I was the most sober I've ever been in my life from those early years because I was in charge and I was in charge of a lot of people in a leadership. And the last thing I wanted was anything that was going to affect the way my mind thought and being slow or miss the guy standing over here or that car that passed by. So we had to be on point. So I think there was that piece to it too, where, you know, if we wanted to go, we went out often and it may look like we're parting all the time because a lot of going out and flying the flag means you're going to bar to bar to bar, but that's because that's where you're going to be seen.

2:19:35But we didn't get drunk at bars. We get drunk at the clubhouse. We get drunk in the homies house when we got home but outside of that or you know big national runs but even then especially early on i'm still learning everyone on the club and this is a club full of killers and gangsters sure we're not a lot of fighting in each other but it's also not a it's not a shield i can't walk up to some og and come a bitch or i'm getting punched in the face and so i didn't want anyone getting drunk and being too comfortable either so it's like hey if you went to national run if you're gonna party hard you stay in your room like i mean how hard was it to enforce the rules of not beating each other up fighting each other killing each other I mean, you've got a handful of degenerates, you know, all grouped in who probably don't like being fucking told what to do.

2:20:15Alpha male in town. Yeah. And here you come barking all these orders. No meth. Get your ass up and work out. So I think the way it worked is because that— Don't beat each other up. Other than the no fighting each other, none of that other stuff came overnight. So it wasn't like I'm coming in and just trying to change everybody's culture, right? The fighting thing, to me... But you have to change their culture because now it's Mongol culture. Exactly. But those were rules I instituted as a Mongol. So initially, we worked our way up to those things, right? And like I said, at one point, I said, okay, no drugs.

2:20:53I found out, okay, they didn't fly. No meth. People resonated with that. They understood why. They got behind the mission. Working out, it was a vote. I can't just say, hey, everyone's got to work out, but I could persuade and talk and have a voice, and then everyone votes. Well, if you voted, now you're into it. Everyone's doing it. so it's like i did this in steps right but as far as the no fighting thing so like in the skinhead gang if if you were late to a meeting you got beat up if a guy was mad at you you went in the backyard and you fought and there used to be you know they had this adage of oh two brothers can fight we can share a beer after but what i saw firsthand especially now being a therapist everything else is the ego and everything else that goes into this sure we might shake hands but all of a sudden the guy that beat me up calls and asks for backup.

2:21:36I'll show up, but I might move a little slower. Or, hey, we're having a vote. You think it's going to go your way? You know what I'm saying? There's always the guy that got beat up that wasn't fair. He put his thumb in my eye. You know, whatever, right? There's always sure we're brothers, but I saw how much it undermined the brotherhood. And so in order to have these rules and enforce them, you have to explain to them why we have these rules, why this isn't acceptable. And I think the other piece too, Like in Oregon, we started as one chapter. Those two guys moved, two of the guys from our chapter moved to Portland.

2:22:07They start. So we were like branching off from each other. So we weren't Eugene and Portland chapter. We were Oregon Mongols. So we ran as a unit. So we didn't have this internal beef. We're in California. You know, the gang culture, neighborhood culture, this chapter thinks they're better than that chapter. And there's this, there still weren't fighting, but there was these internal beefs. And it would take strong leadership. You know, when little Dave was a national P, if one chapter, if we found out that one chapter was talking shit, right, we'd make him sit down and talk about it, work it out and get involved.

2:22:35And, you know, discipline would be instead of you can't discipline people with violence. So you can find them money, hit them with the pocketbook. If you really get in trouble, you have to re-prospect for the club. You know, so tell a 10-year member that if he does this, he has to go back to prospecting. He's probably not going to do it, right? So it really came down to leadership. Strong leadership can enforce any of those rules. I mean, strong leaders, to have strong leadership, you have to obtain a massive amount of respect. How did you do that? I think just being... I mean, you're dealing with a bunch of guys that I'm sure fucking can't stand authority either.

2:23:09Absolutely, absolutely. And you're barking orders at them. Is it what, 20 what year old? Yeah, 27 at the time when I first started doing it. And I think the piece with that was to get them all bought in on it, right? To understand the program and why we have leadership. I didn't just start out and say, hey, I'm the boss and you're going to do this. I would have got my ass kicked and shit down the road. So, you know, explaining why we have these rules. And then, like you said, the building that bond through the violence, you know, now, oh man, I saw how he reacted in a situation or how he maintained his cool role.

2:23:40I get why he's in this leadership. Now they respect you and they're listening to you. So I was always a lead from the front guy. And in fact, to a fault where I'm the one that ended up in jail the one at first six months in because I would never ask God to do something I wouldn't do. And I wouldn't be in the back and all right, you guys got to go fight these dudes. I went through that in that skinhead scene. That's one of the reasons I left. And so I think also got respect because I was practicing what I preached and the rules were consistent for everyone. I had to follow the same rules. I wasn't doing meth and telling you, you couldn't.

2:24:13So just, I guess the personal pieces, this is where the brotherhood comes in the most because if you love your brother, you're going to support your brother and you respect the program, you're going to follow the rules. Because it's not what's best for you, it's what's best for the group, the greater good. And it really weeds out those selfish personalities or, like you said, the super strong, like, fuck rules, fuck authority. If you don't like rules and authority, you're not going to be in a motorcycle club. I promise you that. Because there's more rules there than there is anywhere else. Makes sense.

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2:27:21We never did finish what the mission is, I don't think. Yeah. No, well, kind of what my mindset on it was, the mission initially was the Brotherhood, riding bikes, traveling, being a part of something. And then I feel like it gets lost when it turns into the violence, the defending yourself, the ego, just getting wrapped up in that world, you know? And I think the mission gets lost to that extent. I mean, the Brotherhood hopefully is there and stays there. But as far as like, hey, the good times on bikes, it all, I mean, we still have a lot of fun. And we had talked about the parties and stuff.

2:27:57But, you know, it kind of gets swallowed up by this constant, essentially being at war, right? Like the Mongols have been at war since 1969 with the Hells Angels. And then as we started up in other states, now we're at, you know, josey joker said we can't get there or when i moved to the midwest that galloping goose said we can't be there and then mudale and i lost we can't be there so it's this constant state of somebody else telling you what you can't do and then you know by then after you start building the reputation or the name or you're in you're like who the hell's gonna tell me what i can't do yeah and so i think we get further and further away from the initial goal of hanging out the boys riding bikes and having good times yeah you admit did you just say the hell's angels and the Mongols have been in war since 1969.

2:28:44Well, yeah, so I've misspoken the date. So the Mongols started in 1969. It was the mid-'70s since the Hells Angels-Mongols War first started. And then it has continued on back and forth since. Still to this day? To this day, I have at least three close friends I know in the club that were murdered by Hells Angels. I have a close friend that is in prison for life for killing a Hells Angel. um you know it's something that that started back then and has continued there would be lulls there would be times where there was a little bit of peace here and there but then it always kicks back off how did it start so that's a good one because i don't think publicly not a lot of people know the story you know what a lot of us were told going into it is that the hell's angels told the mongols they couldn't wear a bottom rocker that said california they said that they they were the only club that could claim California and we weren't allowed to.

2:29:36And although that did happen a little later on, turns out that's not quite what instigated it. And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about how the public perception was angels wouldn't let the Mongols join because they're Hispanic, but there were, we've, we already talked about how that wasn't true. And there really was no beef between the two clubs. The Mongols back then were a small, pretty small club and the angels were much larger. And from what I've been told from some of the old school dudes is their path didn't cross a lot early on or occasionally they would party you know see each other bars and stuff but um i want to say it was in the mid 70s there was a famous hell's angel up in northern california george wagers wagers wedron i don't know anyways george from the from the hell's angels norcal hell's angels and the story goes he had there was two people that were visiting the hell's angels up there and the hell's angels were partying with them and then they dosed to these guys with acid you know they got they were on lsd they were getting crazy and the angels ended up killing them.

2:30:32And they threw their bodies, and George had this big ranch, and they threw the bodies in the well of this ranch. Well, this investigation comes out, George testifies, and there was another member, Bud, well, no, it was Bud's brother, who had testified as well. So this was an act of Hell's Angels that had testified about this murder trial. So the guy that had testified, he moves, He leaves the Hells Angels and he moves to Southern California. And, you know, this is pre-internet, right? So the information doesn't travel as fast. You can't be like, hey, here's so-and-so's paperwork. Everyone knows.

2:31:07You know, he moved far enough away that I don't know who knew where he was or what. But he moved in with his brother, Bud. And the two of them started. Chester Green was his name. So Chester was the Hells Angel that turned informant and moved to Southern California. Moved in with his brother, Bud. him and Bud had started their own club and that club then get absorbed by the Mongols so now Chester and Bud are Mongols on the other side there's Keith Ball who was a work for Easy Rider magazine writer for Easy Rider magazine well-known Hell's Angel and like that George Christie era early on his wife and his son his wife leaves and she starts dating Bud so essentially the son Frank who's a good friend of mine frank ball it's for lack of better terms this is dad and stepdad right dad's a hell's angel stepdad's mongol so we all hear about or people that know the history often hear about there was a big swap meet where the angels and mongols clashed for the first time and they got in a fight but what earlier was transcribed or what used to be told was that the mongols there was more mongols than angels which i still believe is true but that Mongols were just being cocky and arrogant and one of the members of the angels was mad at it and said F this and punched him but the more the truth comes out the more we've dug into the story Bud recently passed away and since he passed away a lot of these family secrets are coming out Frank's getting out starting to tell his story like he's been on my podcast and some other ones or just mine and then George Christie's been talking about about it a little it so people are just starting to hear this actual story where bud who is now a mongol right and then frank's dad keith they see each other at this spot meet and keith punches bud they get into a fight mongols start fighting angels everyone's hitting each other with motorcycle parts and sprockets so it's this big fight right after this fight as george christie would say they will go back to their clubhouse and the hell's angels who were this big dominant you know wild club back then or like who the f are these guys who we have to make an example out of these guys they think they can just stand up and you attack us like and essentially if you think about it from a strategic standpoint if they let some small club get away with it who else everyone else are going to start challenging them too right so they thought they need to make this big statement and so uh two mongols red beard and jingles who actually both had their wives in the back were riding back from los angeles to san diego in another time and they were machine gunned off their bikes and killed them.

2:33:37With their wives on the back? Yeah. I believe one of the wives died and the other one was paralyzed, if I remember correctly. Fuck. But they were machine gunned off their bikes and killed by Hells Angels. A week or two later, they have their funeral and a red and white car shows up, which is a Hells Angels color. They leave red and white roses at the funeral and the car blows up at the funeral. So they bomb the funeral of the two two Mongols that were killed. So obviously things escalate. Then there was a motorcycle shop called, it was a motorcycle shop in East Los Angeles called the frame up.

2:34:11A couple of Mongols worked there and the hell's angels, George Christie had talked about this on some podcast, but the hell's angels had brought, had a guy go in and drop off a motorcycle tire. It said they needed it switched off a wheel, but there was a bomb in it. So when they took the tire off, it blew up and killed some people. So now there's this tit for tat going back and forth. And then Junior, who was a member of the San Diego Mongols, shot and killed Ray Piltz, who was a Hells Angel in San Diego. And ever since then, they've just been killing each other. Shit. And, you know, there's, I feel like when this violence and stuff happens, both sides always feel justified, right?

2:34:47Both sides are, they're the ones that are getting, they're the victims. They're getting bullied. These people tell us we can't do. So the Mongols are feeling, hey, the angels are trying to tell us we can and can't do this. and the angels are saying, oh, these guys are trying, there's too many of them, they're being cocky. And, you know, everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. And then once people start dying, everyone starts standing up for themselves. When that happened, that's when the Mongols said, well, why don't we wear the California bottom rocker at this point? Because what do the hell's angels do?

2:35:14Go to war with them? They're already at war, right? And so then they ended up switching over to their bottom rocker reading California, where before it was like Long Beach or San Diego or whatever the city was. Damn. And it's been going on since then. You know, I've had little PK was a close friend of mine. He was pretty close to my age. And he had shot a Hells Angel in Northern California, and that Hells Angel survived. And I think less than a year later, he just disappeared without a trace. He was a heavyset dude. He was riding a big full dresser motorcycle, which has never been found. He left the party, told some guys he was going to go meet up some girl.

2:35:51And a couple months later, he was found in the hills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, and he was half burdened, had a bullet in his head. Shit. My brother Rambler, who was a very close friend of mine, he was, we had both been Mongol. Well, I was a Mongol in San Diego when he was hanging around. He ended up joining San Diego, but I'd moved back to Oregon. He was up there visiting for work. And in Oregon, by now, things were pretty chill with all the other clubs. So we wore our patches everywhere. I mean, we still had our program, but it was pretty relaxed. In fact, he said, this is like Disneyland up here.

2:36:20We can just go to the strip clubs or we can go to the bars, you know, because in San Diego, if we wanted to go to a bar, you could only stay for about 30 minutes, couldn't drink, you had to have a chase truck, you had to have X amount of members. Like in Oregon, I mean, we still try to run off those rules, but in general in Oregon, you could let your guard down. And he was visiting, so he would walk to the strip club over here. And so he was getting ready to move home, or he was getting ready to move Portland. So he went to San Diego. He bought a truck from one of the brothers. He drove it to San Diego.

2:36:47He was loading it up with stuff. the night before he was moving home he went out to a bar with his old lady in san diego um two hell's angels approach him they kind of put shove each other rambler decides he's gonna leave he gets on his bike leaves pulls over to a taco place with his wife to get some food the hell's angels had followed him comes out of taco place they stab him in the throat armpit and groin and he bleeds out right there and dies shit did you ever have any run-ins yeah but i mean nothing And obviously not to that level, but, you know, I had a tattoo. I've since covered it up. But after Rambler got killed, I got a tattoo of the Hell's Angels Center patch.

2:37:28But it was hanging from a noose with X'd out eyes and a tongue hanging out. And it said FTHA, blood dripping off of it. Wow. And it caused some controversy. But that's where our mindset was. And that's the problem with this war is, A, no one knows why it started. But B, once you're in long enough, you don't care. Because both sides, right? Both sides lose members. And now they're the enemy. And, you know, people are dying and going to prison. And most people don't even know why. So it's been, it's after leaving the club and getting to know Mel and some other former Hells Angels, my co-host for Patched, Jason, he was a former Hells Angel.

2:38:06You know, that kind of initial goal we had was we wanted to show that everyone in this life and those major clubs, how much we all have in common. you know like for me you know i joined the mongols because i knew a mongol all my friends that were in like the hardcore crew fsu in boston they joined the outlaws and then some of them later joined the mongols and then the northern california skinhead and hardcore crews they joined the hell's angels because it was what was there in their region or who they knew it wasn't we chose one because we hate the other right we all came from the same thing and we were the same people that just wore a different name and invent and then it turns into people killing each other um and so you know getting into that why did it really happen piece and then trying to explain and how much we have in common.

2:38:45And I don't even know if that'll help at this point. Because, I mean, you've got to think that's years and years of war. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how long did it take you to get over it and start talking to Hell's Angels? I mean, you co-host a fucking podcast on one. Yeah. And, you know, so little Dave, the former national president of Mongols, had introduced me to Jason, that former Hell's Angel. And he had read my book and really liked, you know, kind of my philosophy on things. And he was like, hey, dude, let's do something where we can try and help. Let's try and – the initial goal of that podcast was to show all the similarities.

2:39:19It kind of transformed into more of a mental health podcast on what it's like when you leave and refinding identity and purpose. But it started as this, like, trying to show peace. And so initially, it was really – mentally, it was really hard, man, you know? Like, the first time I met Jason, which was the first time I met any Hells Angel, ex-former Hells Angel in person, And we were at a motorcycle rally in North Carolina called The Smokeout. So I was riding up for Savannah. This was a six-hour ride or something. And he's giving me address this Airbnb. He's going to be there with two or three other former Hells Angels.

2:39:53And then a guy had met my friend, Lauren, from a company called Street Syndicate. He used to be a Hells Angel. And he was going to meet us there. So I'm riding up there at first, happy to meet my new friends. We've been talking. And all of a sudden, the sun's going down. And I'm riding. And the next thing I know, I'm in this country. and I'm riding down this gravel road to this dark house. And I go, fuck, dude, you think they're playing the long game? Like, am I going to walk in and there's plastic on the floor? But, you know, conversation was a little guarded at first. And just the trigger of seeing, like, some of them still had their club logos or tattoos.

2:40:25And just seeing that death head even was like, it was hard. Mentally, it was tough, man. But the more we talked, the more we saw in common, we had in common. And then hearing the other sides of stories where we were both at, you know like there was a moment where lauren's like oh shit that was you or you know what i mean things like that where it was like we were both there for the same things and had different perspectives and i think can you go into one of those um yeah yeah the one he was talking about is we i had helped start a chapter of mongols in spokane and the hell's angels were really strong there but at the time most of them were in prison for a racketeering case and murder case so there wasn't very many left and the ones i started came from that hardcore crew fsu and a lot of dudes in MMA and jiu-jitsu.

2:41:08So they were tough dudes. And I knew we'd be able to hold it down. But once we opened up there, obviously there was pushback. And that guy, Junior, I talked about, he had come back to the club and he kind of oversaw our area at the time. And he had called and he said, hey, the Angels, they have a bunch of guys coming from out of town. They just had this run-in with the Mongols last night. We needed to send everybody up there. And at the time, I was on on association probation because I just got out of jail a few months before that and I wasn't allowed to affiliate with the club or leave the state but again I've always been a lead from the front guy so I said all right so I'm going to call them to everyone they got to go up there we're all going so we go up there and we get I think I left in the middle of the night we get up there early in the day and more and more guys from you know Idaho is coming to Oregon where and everyone's like what's the plan what's the plan I keep going we got to wait for junior you know it's finally I called junior just for chain of command and I finally called junior and he goes I can't show up there man there's too many cops and uh that was my first falling out with that guy but um from that so like okay well then i guess this i guess we're putting this together so we had developed a meetup spot and essentially the goal was we were just all going to go out and fly the patch and make a presence and if they wanted to come get it they could but we were going to show them that a we had support that we could show back up with the swiftness and that we all stuck together and uh we were at one of the guys owns a tattoo shop up there and we were at this tattoo shop just kind of killing time, waiting for more people to show up.

2:42:35And the FBI was outside driving around and stuff. And I remind you, I can't leave the state. I'm not supposed to be there. So I'm down in the basement of this tattoo shop getting ready to get tattooed. And the prospect comes running down the stairs. And he goes, Mooch, Mooch, we got to get you out of here. The FBI is in here and they know you're here. And I'm like, fuck, dude, I'm going back to jail. Well, my twin brother had just had a baby, so he didn't come with us. And he's in a club. So I called my twin brother. I guess they said, yeah, well, we know Jeremy is down there, which is my brother's name.

2:43:01So I call my brother. I go, don't answer your phone. Don't go outside. If anyone has, you're in Spokane. And when the sun got down, I got out of there. But there was a standoff at one point where we went to one bar and all the angels were at the bar across the street. And there was like cops in the middle and we were all on the sidewalk and having this big stare down. And it turned out Lauren from Streets and he was standing on the other side of that road. So we were like, we're telling a story and I was like, yeah, he was like, you were there for that? I was like, yeah, I was there for that. Or there was a, the one that he got upset about is there's a, a former Hells Angel had lost, had left the club.

2:43:33He was the national secretary. So he had this spreadsheet that had every Hells Angels chapter, address, and members names and phone numbers on it. And, uh, look at all, I shouldn't say it on the air, but whatever. It's nothing illegal. but um i had i had this app where you know you can text people from other people's phone numbers and there was a time it was during sturgis and we were that was with thest louis chapter of the mongols and we were riding intost louis to go to some bars we were coming from alton illinois and we're riding intost louis and as we're coming down the highway there's hell's a fast eddies hey yeah that's where we were coming from was that fast eddies area yeah absolutely that was a bar we went to a lot but we were heading into we were gonna go to shady jacks inst louis sort of actually no we were going up the soulard area but anyways we're going down the interstate or it was the highway and all of a sudden this hell's angel goes flying past us by himself and i've got nine guys with me and then i chased you know the we had a crew called the wrecking crew which is like our support club that didn't ride the security guys they're behind us and i remember watching them and thinking fuck man and i go whatever i do this the whole pack whips a bitch we start chasing this guy and we're probably doing buck 10 you know 105 miles an hour at least and this guy he's flying he's looking in his mirrors and he pulls into this gas station and he was far enough ahead that i could see him do it but like we weren't right there and i remember thinking well i mean that's smart somewhere public at least you know well we pull in the gas station everyone's all hot ready to roll and and we can't find him so everyone's kind of they're all on bikes still someone's weaving in and out trying to look around for him and as i call it to leave we're pulling this u-turn and i look in there was like a trailer park right there and i look down and I see this Hells Angel.

2:45:10He's like peeking out from behind his mobile home. It's like, well, there he is. So we pull into the trailer park, but most of us had stopped because this is the Midwest. I ain't rolling someone's front door unless I'm gonna get ready to get shot, right? So we stopped. And one of the members that was actually from Kansas City, he had something to prove because he was the older guy that was just kind of got in trouble at church for like not following through with shit or just kind of being soft. And so he wanted to prove something. So he comes rolling up. He jumps off his bike. He starts walking up a hard end.

2:45:41He freezes. And one of the guys goes, why is he freezing? I go, the other dude must have a gun. And then all of a sudden, the Kansas City guy starts backpedaling. And one of the mongos goes, does he think he's the only one? I'm like, whoa, dude. It's like three in the afternoon at this trailer park. So this hell's angel comes out. And he's got a pistol in his waist, but he's holding an iPad. And he kept yelling, call 911. Call 911. And obviously, I was like, all right, dude. This dude ain't going to do shit. He's in the right. If we go jump him or whatever, the cops are going to come. um so i said let's wrap it up and get out of here well the more i was thinking about it kind of like i'd said before about the low risk how to reward i was like this situation i kind of with these dudes so i got off that list i got a number from a san fernando valley hell's angel and i started texting this hell's angel whose house we were at convincing him i was another hell's angel and i said hey brother uh we're in possession of this video of a bunch of mongols in front of your house and you're yelling call 9-1-1 and he's like brother brother that's not how it happened that's not quite how it happened i said well i'll tell you what we're gonna have an officer's meeting and i'm just guessing at this point you know we're gonna have his officers meeting this weekend so in the meantime why don't you put all your club property in a box we're gonna come out there and decide if you can still be in this club and for two days he's texting me and blowing me up like trying to stay brother it's not like that until he figured out what wasn't you know eventually so i guess they had to have like two or three officer meetings about it because i was doing that and then um There was a dude, Beau from Outlaw Archives, where he collects old Hell's Enderman and preserves the history of it.

2:47:07And a lot of the new members don't like him. So every now and again, he was sending text messaging and messing with them. And this national organization had to have this whole West Coast meeting about not answering texts unless you know for sure who it is or answering the phone. And so Loren was pissed that he had to keep going to these meetings. So when he told that story, he goes, That was you, dude? You're the reason I had to keep going to this meeting? Damn. Wild, wild. Yeah, my wife said I was a nerd because there was another time where they were hosting a fight night in St. Louis, the Angels and the Galloping Goose, or the Forresteros, like they were doing it together.

2:47:41So I was texting the Angels from a Forresteros number and been like, you guys need to step up security. This shit's soft. You're right. And then I was doing it back to the, just trying to stir the pot. So I'm just sitting there giggling on my phone like an idiot. My wife's like, what is wrong with you? Wow. How long have you been married? We've been together 10 years. We've been married for five. How'd you meet? And she was working at a bar that we had stopped in. And we had rolled in there. It was really kind of funny because she's 10 years younger than me. She's not from that life at all. And someone at the bar said, a bunch of Mongols are coming in here.

2:48:13And she goes, Mongoloids? What? Who's coming in here? Mongoloids. And then most of us, like I said, we were sober at the time. We're not drinking. So we walked in and we all were in Mountain Dews or something. She's like, all these tough guys? And they came in and ordered Mountain Dew. And then we went back there another time. and when I do drink, I like fruity drinks. I don't give a shit. It tastes good. I don't like to taste alcohol. If it comes in a fruit or got an umbrella, I'm in, right? So I walk in and I order a Mai Tai and apparently she either didn't know how to make it at the time or didn't have the ingredients for it.

2:48:42So it was the worst Mai Tai I've ever had in my life. But she was still in a relationship and we didn't even talk then. But she found me on social media and sent me a friend's request. So maybe two months later, it was right after New Year's, she liked a picture and I was like, ooh, who's this chick liking my photo? So I sent her a message, and of course, she made me wait 24 hours to show me what time it was. And then we met up and started hanging out, and that was it, man. Right on. She was, not to sound cheesy, but this is the facts. So I was engaged a year before that, and we split up over, mainly because, like a month before our wedding, I was in Thailand doing stuff with the club, and when I came home...

2:49:20Wait, what? So I had helped start the Australian Mongols, and the Mongols in Australia can't come here, and I can't go there. so we would meet in thailand for meetings so it's like why can't you go there and they can't come here well i couldn't go there at the time because my criminal record i was a felon but also if you're a known member of motorcycle club australia has crazy motorcycle club laws a lot of the states you can't even wear a patch or have club tattoos um so immigration on both sides they won't let you in gotcha and so thailand we could because you don't need visas to visit you know um and it's also was like mongols had just started in thailand so it was our chance like from leadership to go out there and meet the Thai guys.

2:49:56So I spent 10 days in Thailand, and the club had paid for me to go because I was doing this meeting, and they paid for the flight, but still, it's Thailand. Everything else is pretty cheap. And they'd offer to bring her, so I was like, maybe we're going to go to Thailand, and she was all against it, which should have been a pretty big red flag because the minute I landed in Thailand, I got this Dear John text about how things weren't working out, and we were supposed to be saving for a wedding, and I'm spending money on motorcycle parts, but it really came down to she wanted to have a kid, and I don't.

2:50:25So I come back to an empty house and I spent a full year just being single. I mean, I was doing a Tinder thing and meeting chicks, but it's something I talk to my clients about a lot too, is I don't feel like you can be happy in a good relationship until you can be happy alone. Because so many people get codependent with others and they'll put up with bullshit or bad relationships because they're just the fear of being alone, right? And so I spent alone time, like I was dating, I was going out and hanging out with girls and stuff, but if there was any sort of red flag i just moved on like why get serious i was to the point where i i was cool with what i was doing um so i really wasn't looking for anything serious when i met her and she just gotten out of relationship but when her and i started getting close it was like this like i was like this makes sense on why my other relationships didn't work out like everything just fit into place so well like the way we thought and morals values there's so many things that were so similar there was no jealousy or possessiveness or arguing fighting and I was just like, this is how it's supposed to be.

2:51:23And I wouldn't have known until I had it. But I wasn't going to let that go, so I put a ring on it. Do you still not want kids? Yeah, correct. Why not? Just I'm honest with myself, man. I'm selfish with my time. I like to be able to pack up and go when I want. You know, I work with kids. I have an amazing niece and nephew. I've got a sister that's 22. But as far as, like, the responsibility of children and the financial burden of children at this point, um you know we rescue uh dogs i used to foster english bulldogs so i've just always kind of been more of a dog guy and i love kids and you know people people say all the time oh you'd be a great dad or oh your life would change or you'll see it and i don't doubt that but i also am very honest with myself that it's not something i want and so um you know i'm 45 now so i definitely don't want to start doing it now and and so that was something when her and i were getting serious i wanted to make sure we were on the same page with right on right on It's 3 a.m.

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2:53:34so i had were we missing anything in oregon before we go to the midwest me going to gym my trial my case well that would be a pretty big thing yeah yeah so been in the club for about six months there was um this party in eugene for the club the free souls and there was like their every chapter of the state was there and then all the outsiders gypsy jokers brother speed all the clubs were there together and they were going to make this big presence to like essentially show them all as we couldn't be here and i didn't want to do this i wanted to show them that we were serious and we weren't going to cower down so we took all six of us plus we had some guys come up from nevada and stuff i think there's maybe 10 or 12 of us and we just started going to all the bars they go to like i knew where they were at i had eyes on their clubhouse i knew who was out and about so we weren't putting ourselves in too bad of a spot but we made sure to go make a presence and all of their bars around town not to necessarily stir the pot i mean to some extent, but mainly to show like, hey, we're still going to do what we're going to do.

2:54:31And we had just checked back in at the hotel and three of the guys that were in this group of 12 turned out to be informants. So it made sense. We were getting followed by the ATF. And this ATF agent was the first time I'd ever, that's the first time I ever saw an ATF. In my mind, from TV, you know, these guys were all military looking and in shape. And this dude looked like Grimace from McDonald's, wearing New Balances, were all flattened down on the sides. And he came walking up and he had let me know or informed us that there had been a car that had gotten pulled over that had a president of the gypsy jokers president of free souls and or president of brother speed and the president of the outsiders in it and they had a trunk with guns in it and they said they're out mongrel hunting that's what they told us so they had a they had a duty to warn so they asked us to stay at the hotel just don't go out and the informants were dead set i'm not going out they were scared i mean obviously we didn't know their informants but now it made sense but we said fuck it dude plus this may sound silly but the fact of it is too is a we were all going to go do it but now we have there's cops following us federal agent like the risk is goes down pretty pretty much after that right i'm not saying that someone wouldn't still do something it wasn't a shield but it wasn't as um threatening as if you know we were out there by ourselves in the middle of nowhere and these guys were coming to get us so i didn't want to cower down so we went out there and and nothing really came of it and a couple weeks later this front page back when the newspaper was a thing the front page of the sunday newspaper was biker war comes to oregon police police fear violence as motorcycle moguls roll into town and it's this huge like it was a multiple page article about how the gypsy jokers were going to go to war with the moguls and how the gypsy jokers have a rule that there could be no clubs with black and white colors in their state and then they started talking about some of the different violences that happened with the not between the two clubs but you know what they had done over the years so we're all on high alert right we're i mean especially now it's in the paper and my parents like I said before they they own like 100 and I always forget I think it's 120 acres but they live in this big big property and they have a big house at the top of the hill and then there's a little house at the bottom where we used to live before they built a big one and my brother lived there so I was staying with my brother and I'm getting ready to leave I was going up to Portland and I was in my brother's pickup truck and bind you my felon and I'm on probation so I can't carry a weapon you know I can't have a firearm or anything and I'm coming down their driveway It's a quarter-mile driveway, and there's four no trespassing signs coming up.

2:56:53But every now and again, sometimes someone gets lost and turns around. So I'm coming down the driveway, and here comes an all-blacked-out SUV with Washington plates. Ford Explorer started coming towards me, and when it sees me, it stops. I mean, it stops at a distance where I could see an outline of two people, but couldn't see, like, who they were, what they looked like. And so, A, you know, I stopped, too, and I'm sitting here thinking, okay, I don't have a weapon, so I don't want to run up on them. But I do want to know who they are. So I'm just kind of waiting, thinking, trying to tell myself, okay, maybe it's someone that's lost.

2:57:21And they kind of do this weird turn. You know, they had to do a 12-point turn to turn around. But as they're going down the road, they keep looking back at me. And I remember thinking, well, maybe I scared them that they're lost. And so we come to the end of the driveway, and I was going to go north, which would have been left. And they turned right. And I remember I had this internal dialogue that I'll never forget. I decided to turn right. And I remember saying, is this one of those moments you're going to look back on and say, I wish you would have turned left? and I turned right and I followed them for about 10 miles through like country road but every time I followed them they wouldn't let me get close to them so it was more alarm flags were going on and then we come back to the interstate and now we're at the interstate now they go north so now my like now I'm definitely thinking something's off because they would have gone north from the driveway right so they're kind of doing a circle so now we're on the interstate and as soon as they get on interstate they gun it they're going in and out of traffic so I'm like fuck it's on so I'm chasing them we get to north the north part of salem and they take the exit and they drive to the gypsy jokers clubhouse and in order to do that you have to go through a couple neighborhoods and a cul-de-sac so it's not by chance that they go there right yeah i didn't want to follow them down these neighborhood roads so i park at a gas station across the street that had eyes on them so they pull in front of the gypsy joker clubhouse but they wouldn't get out of the car and i'm thinking okay this is all sketchy right the passenger side's window rolls down and a finger comes out and does this to me from across the street.

2:58:44So now I say, okay, this is the enemy, right? So I call my brother and the guy, little Zach, that I talked about earlier from high school. And I say, hey, here's what's going on. Where are you guys at? You want to meet me somewhere in this area? So at least maybe you got, they don't know what you guys are driving. Maybe you guys can get next to him. At least we just want to see who they are. So as I'm talking to him, they get back on the interstate, but now they're going back South again. So I'm worried. Maybe they're going back to my house they know that i'm not there so i get back behind them and for a while i don't think they realized i was still following them um but when they did they start speeding up i followed them for 60 miles after this so this is like now we're already an hour and a half into this and as we're going into the city of eugene we had a chapter there so i call some of the eugene guys and i said hey told them what's going on i said why don't there's two different groups i called i said why don't you guys each get in a separate car meet me off the freeway and i'll call you when we come close and i want you to jump on like merge in but they don't know who your guys cars are so get a good look at them or at least be with me if they pull over for gas so we're following them and it gets to the point where i just said fuck it dude let's just kind of slow them let's box them in so i get up behind them someone gets next to them i get in front of them and as soon as we do that they slam on their brakes so the guy in this car swerved slightly and it was enough where they went from the center lane to the fast lane.

3:00:02And as soon as they did that, they hit a siren. I was so locked in the moment that I started looking around when I heard the siren because these are enemies, you know? And then they went from the fast lane, which they jumped over three lanes of traffic, took the exit. And as they were doing that, one of the other guys got in front of them and slammed on his brakes, which scared them. So when he did that, they hit their lights. And I go, fuck, these are cops. Holy shit. I've been following a cop for an hour and a half. I got leather gloves on, two cell phones next to me. But I started thinking, I'm like, well, I haven't done.

3:00:33What have I done that was illegal? All I did was follow somebody. I was in other cars that swerved at them. So now they're following me because they had pulled over. And so I started using my turn signals so they could see where I'm going because I know at this point I'm going to get pulled over. And I pull into the nearest parking lot. And they pull in and they pull around and they face me, but they wouldn't get out of their car. I'm already thinking, now I'm like, damn, I'm stupid. I think that's the car that that ATF agent had when they came up to us in Eugene. I wonder if this is that ATF agent.

3:01:03But I was also thinking that when he came up to us in Eugene, he even said, I have your number. So in my head, I was like, well, he could have called. You know what I mean? So I was like, I don't see I did anything wrong. And I look in my mirror and there's like 30 cops around me, guns out. Get out of the car, get out of the car. And I'm like, fuck, dude. I thought for sure I'm going to get shot or beat up. So they pull me out of the car, handcuff me i'm standing next to the car and i only know this now from trial from the discovery but you know that the car has his recording and the cop tells that atf agent so he gets out he starts walking up to me and the cop says hey we're recording so he turns the radio up and when he walks up to me he was like telling me they were playing a game of cat and mouse it was funny they're gonna see how long see how long would take till i ran out of gas he even said i don't you didn't do anything wrong we're gonna cut you loose my i had called my aunt and because she living in town and my brother and Zach who had been following me they were across the street and the cops never knew that they were following them so they were recording it with the camcorder and I was looking over at Quiznos thinking hell yeah dude I'm gonna go get some lunch I'm hungry when I get out of here next thing you know I'm in the back of a cop car I got police motorcycles in front and behind this cop car like some presidential thing and they take me to jail so I sit in holding while they round up the other two guys and because now again there was an informant that was involved so he had told everyone who was involved and normally in this case you're supposed to lawyer up right like i mean even cops lawyer up at this point but because i didn't think it was a risk i didn't think i was risking any serious charges i wanted them to be on tape admitting that it was a game of cat and mouse what were they doing and i had questions too like why don't you identify yourself what are you doing so i i said yeah i'll do the interrogation and in the interrogation they said this was a game of cat and mouse we were just out there to see if we can find out where you live then you caught us ha ha ha so why'd you go the gypsy joker clubhouse were like, oh, it was convenience, or it was a mistake.

3:02:50And they were making these jokes. They were like, I had it all on tape. So we're getting ready to, now they say, okay, we're going to go book you. And I said, for what? And they said, we haven't figured it out yet, but I think attempted assault. And at this time, the jails were overcrowded. There was no funding due to this timber law budget, that federal timber thing budget that was going on. So they weren't holding people. So I was like, whatever, dude, I'll be out in the morning. So I go to jail in the morning, I go down to my arraignment and instead of bringing me in with everyone else, I'm sitting in a single cell by myself and I see my co-defendants walk by and they're like pale white looking at a piece of paper.

3:03:22I'm like, fuck, this can't be good. And then slide my indictment over the door and they indicted me on conspiracy to commit kidnapping, attempted kidnapping, unlawful use of a weapon, conspiracy to commit awful use of, there was like eight felonies. And the kidnapping was because they moved in a direct, they moved from the center lane to the fast lane in a direction. They didn't want to go. Yeah, right? $14 million bail. And then I had a bail reduction where I went down to$1.4 million. $14 million bail. Front page of every paper, Mongol leader tries to run cops off the road. One of the jail guards would let me out and watch myself on the TV at night in the nightly news.

3:03:59And I was, because I was a high profile inmate, I was in the 23 and a half hour day single cell lockdown for the two months I was there. And every time I violated, went back, it was the same. so I take it to trial it's like a week and a half trial this ATF agent I always knew that everyone knows that cops will lie but I never thought they would blatantly lie right I couldn't it didn't make sense this ATF agent's on the stand and and he says he's talking about when he came up to talk to me and he goes I was screaming at him because I was in fear for my life I thought what were you doing we had our guns out and like try to make it like this whole thing that wasn't you know and my whole entire was like oh when the interrogation tape comes I haven't been saying this and this.

3:04:40They fought and somehow got the interrogation tape out. They weren't allowed to introduce it as evidence. Holy shit. The judge was against me. Like, I don't want to sound like I'm a victim because I did chase these dudes, but the system was fucked. Thankfully, my family helped me with a very expensive attorney and I won. You know, cost us$25 ,000 and a lot of time. But what I did get found guilty is, It was reckless driving, misdemeanor, and a misdemeanor charge called menacing. The maximum for that is a year in jail and then five years probation. They gave me the max. A year in jail, five years probation.

3:05:17And it was essentially felony gang probation because I had a non-association, so I wasn't allowed to affiliate with anyone from the Mongols, including my twin brother. Nightly curfews, couldn't go to bars, everything. I tried to appeal the part about not hanging out with my brother, but they didn't. and um so now i go to jail go back to jail and i get released after a day of being sentenced so i was there for like two months in a day or something because they have the sentencing guidelines in the matrix and they're like okay no longer my risk like when i'm there for conspiracy to commit kidnapping i'm high enough risk right if i'm there for reckless driving and they need to make room so who's gonna get kicked out so i only knew i'm getting kicked out because i look out my cell and there's just media crew everywhere reporters and someone goes it's probably for you and i'm yeah right it was and thankfully i asked it one of the cops let me go out the back door after i was processed out instead of the media exit so i avoided that stuff but dude even in trial they did just so many crazy things like at one point they put the whole jail on lockdown and someone goes watch they're gonna they're gonna say this is you tomorrow at trial i'm like yeah right how and sure as shit they said that a motorcycle that mongol had ridden by and left a suspicious package up front.

3:06:28So they had to call a bomb squad and put the jail on lockdown. They had credible information. The Mongols were trying to bust me out like this was some Wild West movie, dude. And because they convinced the judge that the Mongols were trying to break me out, they allowed extra cops in my trial. So there are times where there'd be 12 uniformed officers in my hearing. You can imagine how that influences the jury, right? So it was an uphill battle, but I won. And so I get out after road crew, everything else, I get out. And now I'm, you know, I've been a Mongol for seven months, eight months now. That's it.

3:07:05Yeah. And I think it was eight months in and I'm being told I can't hang out at the club for five years. And so I was like, I can't do that, man. Fuck this. I said, I'm going to move to San Diego. And that guy that interviewed me, he was the president of that chapter. I said, I'm going to move down there to the heart of where the Mongols are. I'm going to learn to be the best Mongol I can. I go, they're not going to come. I mean, I'm going to have a probation violation. I'm going to have a warrant. But you think they're going to extradite me on a misdemeanor warrant? You know? So, and I moved to San Diego and joined the Mongols there.

3:07:33And then in October of 2008 is when that Operation Black Rain that I talked about concluded. And everybody got raided. Every house in Oregon got raided. Like, I woke up to a text, 20 texts. I said, are you okay? I was like, what? Was there an earthquake or something? And just like out of the movies, man, I turned on the TV and it's like, mongols motorcycle club national raids and are showing SWAT teams going into houses and all these mongols in handcuffs and i'm thinking well fuck i have a warrant peeking out the window um and i stayed up in the yucca valley mountains with my aunt for another month or so and then i drove home and turned myself in and uh did two months and then for about that whole year man i'd be out for a couple months and get caught hanging out go back for a couple months and every time i went back was a 23 and a half hour day lockdown.

3:08:19And that kind of life-changing moment for me was the last time I got, went in there, one of the guards said, Hey man, I lost the bet. And I go, what do you mean? You know? And he goes, I bet the other guys, you wouldn't be back here. Cause he goes, you're not like these guys. And I remember just looking around the jail and nothing against the people that are there, but I was like, I didn't feel like I was a criminal. I was there for violating probation, but I wasn't, I wasn't a drug dealer. You know what I mean? I was like, Like, you're right. I don't belong here. And I was getting really tired and burnt out of this.

3:08:47That was my life, in and out of jail. And I was trying to think, what is something I can do as a career? What can I do to break this cycle of going out of jail? And there was a Mongol out of Hollywood chapter named Richie Rich who had his PhD in clinical psychology. He looks like he just walked off the prison yard. He's a big dude, blasted neck tattoo in great shape. and he was involved in an incident with the hell's angels and mongols and sturgis where hell's angel got stabbed he wasn't he didn't do it but he was around there so he got fired for being involved and this dude's a clinical psychologist right and this is 2008 yeah 2008 2009 and he goes man i'm having a hard time finding a job after that he goes i can't find anything that pays more than 100 he goes everything they're offering me only pays 100 a year and to me especially back then i was like that's your problem i want to have that problem and you know by now I've got mongols tattooed huge on the back of my head I've got felony now I'm on probation you know probation and I was like what's it what's a field that I can get into where I could help others give back because I always wanted to be a teacher but I couldn't once I got my felony and I said I'm gonna start drug and alcohol counseling so I went to school I got my associate's degree in drug and alcohol counseling then I stayed because I fell in love with psychology I went to Whittier College in Los Angeles for a while and then came back to Oregon and I completed my bachelor's degree in social behavioral studies.

3:10:04And then in 2017, I got my master's degree in social work. And at my last semester of graduate school, I had to do an internship. And the internship I really wanted, an internship I interviewed for and got was to be a counselor at the Oregon Youth Authority for the kids that were in jail. I was really excited about it, and I was getting ready to start. And they gave me, I did the interview, and they said I was hired. and they gave me this like information and i had to go go to this address for training on these four days or whatever it was so i wake up in the morning i'm dressed up i'm all excited i follow the gps i pull in the parking lot and it's the fucking oregon state police academy that's where everyone from the youth authority gets trained even the counselors so i end up calling my wife girlfriend at the time but it's my wife and i said man i know i have a little bit of ego but maybe no one here knows who i am right i get out of the car and a cop stops dead in his tracks and stares at me and now looking back i know it was the oregon state chief of police saw me walking in i was even told i don't know if it's true or not that they were teaching a class about me somewhere you know about the malls in oregon somewhere in those halls so when i would get out of the class to take a leak it was like someone farted you know like everyone just stopped and stared at me so i got pulled out of class really quick i got uh accused of infiltrating and they thought that the government's perspective was that I was, I went to school for eight years and spent$150 ,000 at school so that I could go recruit kids for my gang of the youth authority, you know, 15 and 16 year olds that don't ride motorcycles.

3:11:36I'm going to waste all my time to do that. So they fired me. Well, I found that to be unconstitutional. I don't think it was just, I explained to them, like I would explain to anyone that my history in the club and my background is what I thought would make me a good therapist for kids. And so I filed a lawsuit against the state of Oregon for, for, against youth authority for wrongful discrimination. And I won, but when I won again, it's all, I won a thousand and$1, you know, that$1. So everyone always remembers, but you know, it wasn't a paid internship. There was no monetary value. They paid the attorney fees and the thousand bucks, but it was all over the paper.

3:12:12And at the same time, I just fell in love with jujitsu and found jujitsu. I was 10 years into the club by now. I was overseeing all of the Northwest and all that estate out of out of country chapters I'd helped start Australia like I was I had a lot on my plate um you know my two years ago my fiance had left and now I'm dating Ashley like you know it's just my life had changed a lot and when I really really got right before I fell in love with jiu-jitsu my all my buddies were doing jiu-jitsu and so I was like sure I don't want to do something everyone else doing so I started doing kramagaa my first night class and I walk in and you know it's pretty law enforcement heavy activity and And so there was a lot of cops in there.

3:12:48And all I could think is, hey, listen, if I'm good at martial arts and I don't like you and you come to my gym, I'm probably just going to beat you up. So I was like, yeah, worst case, they're going to kick my ass or maybe they're going to try and get to know me. But instead, they went to the police union and made this big deal since I had the victims of my crime or law enforcement. And I got kicked out of the gym until I couldn't train there. So then I started training at jiu-jitsu and I fell in love with jiu-jitsu. And I was traveling for jiu-jitsu and I was down in Los Angeles training with Orlando Sanchez.

3:13:15rest in peace he passed away recently but he he was a friend of the mongols and he was an adcc medalist and big big name in jiu-jitsu and because i was in a club i was getting free lessons with him and training with him all the time and at that gym i met these guys from a team called pedagos mission fighting a small team out of illinois and at the time they were very unknown small team but they were pumping out world champions these guys were living at the living on the mats most of them came from nothing they were each other's family and it reminded me of everything of punk rock and being in the bands and traveling being on tour you know it just I was like this is this is awesome I can resonate with this like these dudes they weren't like the high-end gym that had the money and the rich kids there these were all kids that were you know they were training for free but they were living on the mat but they were winning tournaments and they were kicking ass and I was like man as much as I love jujitsu I want to get into it so I'm going to train I want to train with the best and at Orlando's gym you know I was beating a lot of these guys you know obviously at my like age group and stuff but i was still a new new blue but our new white belt but i'd grown up wrestling and so i had to come advantage everyone on the pedagos mission fighting team had beat my ass dude and i'm talking like submitted me six times in one round and so i was like hell yeah that's where i want to be you know so i went home i'm trying to find a job and i can't because of all this stuff that's going on the paper so i started talking to my wife about maybe moving out there trying to start fresh i'd also considered kind of stepping away from the club because there was no mongols in the midwest and there was two members in kansas city chapter and one chapter in indiana so essentially there was no mongols in the midwest there definitely wasn't any in oregon i mean in illinois so i could go out there and i would still be somewhat involved in the club but i wouldn't have to be as active you know kind of take a break i could really focus on jiu-jitsu and then getting into my field of work you say you you you haven't done much social work or therapy sessions up to this point no i was a little bit with the kids and then i'd done some internships working like advocating for the homeless community and stuff like that.

3:15:08Did you like doing it? So sure. The advocating for homeless community was difficult. I'd done some drug and alcohol counseling, which I ended up down the road not caring for because a lot of my guys were court-ordered and didn't want change. But it wasn't until I got to Illinois that I really just started doing traditional mental health therapy, come and sit on my couch and talk. And then I was doing perpetrators, domestic violence counseling, which I fell in love with. That was really cool. But my wife was about to start at Oregon State University for her master's degree in dietetics and nutrition.

3:15:36And as it turned out, SIU had a dietetics nutrition program, and it's right by where I wanted to move. So we decided to. We were been together two years. I can't believe I talked to her. And I'm picking up and moving across the – or one year. And we picked up and moved across the country, packed the dogs and stuff in two cars and drove out there sight unseen and rented a house. And I started training, and she finished – she went to school, and I started doing therapy. Going to therapy or conducting therapy? No, I started working in social work and being a therapist. And I was really heavily focused on jujitsu.

3:16:12And I had talked to our national pilot, Dave, about retiring from the club. And he said, no, just go out there and you can show up to what you want. You can be as active as you want. But you don't have to be alone. I was in the club's mother chapter by then at national governing. So I didn't have to have a chapter near me. But, man, it didn't take long. I was out there and Heath Pedego from Pedego Submission Fighting, the coach. His brother, Randy Pedego, had grown up doing MMA and he's the one who got Heath into it, but he had just bought a bike. And he was this local legend in that area, this tough guy and a little crazy.

3:16:46And me and him lifted weights at the same gym. And so he introduced himself and he goes, yeah, you know, I know, you know, you train with my brother. And he goes, if you ever want to start a chapter out here, I live to Prospect. And he walked off. And I was like, well shit and I still wasn't I still wasn't necessarily in my mind but there was a group of guys from this hardcore crew called BDC that were in Alton and St. Louis area and they were friends with the Spokane Mongols so the Spokane Mongols were calling me hey since you're out there we got this great group of guys they want to hang out well I didn't have friends really outside of jiu-jitsu so now I'm hanging out with these guys and one was tattooed so I'm getting tattooed and they were awesome it's so much fun to hang out with and then they approached me and said hey we want to be Mongols.

3:17:23And I had this kind of conflicting moment where just because I didn't want to be in anymore, should I stop other people from being in? And I mean, looking back, the answer might've been yes. But at the moment, you know, I'm at the blinders on, I'm in the club. And so I said, let's go. And like I said, when I started there, there was two guys in Kansas City. So I was the only guys in Missouri, no one in Illinois, one chapter in Indiana and none in tennessee when i left that area we had four chapters in missouri two in illinois five in indiana and one in tennessee wow i spent some time growing the chapter out there which created a lot of conflict with a lot in other clubs um and then um yeah i spent my time out there before i ended up leaving the club wow well and in 2009 ever in a million fucking years where i think a one percent biker gang dude would become a therapist yeah inside the fucking club yeah and like i said i wasn't the only one you know richie richie's i think still an active member as far as i know and he's got his phd in clinical psychology i mean that was one of the main reasons did you ever do therapy for the club member i mean not traditional therapy but like i said uh have said before is that i got to this point so you know now that i'm in this leadership position This is when I got to the point where I was able to institute like these guys working, you know, the workout rules.

3:18:45And I mean, we had that in the Northwest too, but it was later on when I had this authority. So in the Midwest, as I'm creating all these chapters, so I get, you know, I was following the club's bylaws and stuff, but I also was able to kind of institute my own program, right? And so this was my opportunity to start doing these more positive things than I wanted to do. And one of the big things that I did do was opening up man-to-man communication, man. sitting at church and how do you feel about that or you know what i mean those types of things and seems counterintuitive to a bunch of alpha males but man i'm telling you the guys loved it and now instead of just going to the bars we're hanging out at the gym we're lifting weights together we're doing jiu-jitsu together i know before i left oregon man we bought wrestling match and we had them down on the clubhouse and we'd have our meetings and then we'd all fight and do jiu-jitsu and so it's like we weren't just drinking at the bar we were like creating these bonds doing other activities that were positive and had a positive influence on top of that now the members instead of that uh adage of these beer bellied out of shape bikers man everyone's in good shape you know we're training most of the guys at least know how some basic fight experience um i got into stick and knife fighting i was teaching some of the guys that so it was like especially in the midwest when i told everybody we all voted the the whole region i had them all vote and everyone had to work out and there would always be you know that the old timer that goes oh i need to work out my trigger finger or whatever and i go cool show me you're going to the range three days a week show me what you're training that three days a week or the the old guy that's not in great shape cool go walk at the park three days a week but do something active and i really saw that the changed it i mean if you go like the mongols have a rule where you have to have meetings our church once a week if you run out of things to talk about once a week what do people do they start talking about other people and then there's drama but if we had church and we had nothing to talk about we'd all go lift together or we do jiu-jitsu together so we're still getting that weekly face-to-face time but we're doing positive things and i noticed the more people are lifting and training the less people are partying and the less people are partying less drama there was and there was all this cool positive things coming out of it you know positive outcomes and it was it was really really cool for a while wow man that's interesting very interesting why did you wind up leaving the club so there's a few factors to it our national p little dave had just gotten thrown out of the club of her allegations of being a federal informant which he wasn't and he later went to trial and was proven that he wasn't not a shred of paperwork but he had had an infidelity and um his wife called him when he was drinking and and kind of set him up for some statements that made him look bad and you know was used against him as a political move by now i've been in 15 years i had when i first joined there wasn't a lot of out-of-state chapters by now and i didn't start all the out-of-state chapters i'm not saying that but by now the mongols had grown all over and when i first came in like that guy junior i was telling you about from california was supposed to be in charge of oregon but he didn't know the politics of other clubs there you know the history of other clubs he didn't even know half the members so i was like that doesn't make sense so as the club grew and i got into positions of leadership i developed this program called the regional rep program where like for example someone like me someone that started in that area been there the whole time gets elected to oversee the region to make sure everyone's following the same rules, the protocol.

3:21:59And then they're the ones that answer to Mother Chapter. So essentially you're like a liaison for Mother Chapter. You're a part of Mother Chapter. You're not the national boss, but you're kind of the in-between, right? Because now, say you got to sit down with other clubs in that area. It's not some guy from LA coming up and sitting down with some club from Oregon. It's some local that knows the history, knows the people. And so I developed that program and we kind of rolled it, well, we rolled it off around the world eventually, but I rolled it across the country. And then when I was telling about that support club the raiders i developed a program so they weren't they weren't their own independent club and each one of them had to was a tied to a mongol chapter so it was really turned out to be like you said before more of a farm team where a lot of these guys joined the raiders thinking they didn't they didn't want to be one percenter didn't have the time and the more time they were doing it they're like this is all the same shit i might as well be a mongol so by now there's a lot of mongols that came from this program that i had started too so politics are involved.

3:22:51There's a new national P, but they have elections are coming up. And a lot of people start saying, well, moot should run. And I'd said a hundred times, I wasn't interested. And what I used to tell people is at the next all members meeting, stand up and say, raise your hand if you've ever been a national P. And I go, not one hand's going to be raised because you either get kicked out of the club or you go to prison. That's not how I want to leave this club. And at a president's meeting before that, someone had asked, can you be a president if you live? because there was always this idea that you had to live in Southern California to be a president because for the most part, back then at least, most of the club was California-centric.

3:23:27The majority of the club was in California. And at that time, they said, no, you can be a president from anywhere. Then they took inventory of how many members were in the country, and they realized that there was more out-of-state than there was in-state of California. And then Little Dave goes on this national podcast to defend his, clear his name, and it was about him and his, clear his name. but the host had asked him like what would what do you think should be done that would help the mongols and he said they should have a new president someone from like oregon or missouri so you can imagine singling you out yeah i don't he says it wasn't intentional um but you can imagine a target that put on my back so our next national run was miami which ended up being the very last national run i went to before i left and i'm there and i have everyone there tell me you know you can't be president you know you can't run i know i know they come up at the national meeting with a rule hey does everyone know there's rule you have to live in la like i was even as much as i expressed i didn't want to be it that was a threat so i go back to the midwest and here i you know i'm overseeing these five states and all of a sudden i get a text message or a text message that goes out to the regional representatives that says you know so and so from california is in charge of tennessee now and i go wait what and they go oh no no it's both of you're doing it and then oh so and so from california are in charge of indiana now So they were trying to take away my influence, right?

3:24:45So I saw the writing on the walls to that. But the big piece was, you know, when I started up there in Missouri, it was the Galloping Goose might as well. They were like the gypsies of Oregon. They said we couldn't be there. There should be issues. And then when I started in Illinois, it was the outlaws. And at this time, two people close to me were murdered. You know, one of them, he was the president of the Southern Illinois Outlaws at the time. and when I first lived out there and him and I developed a really good relationship and we got really close and he'd been thrown out of the outlaws and he kept hitting me up wanting to be a mongol and we were still had pretty good relationships the outlaws then and we had an agreement we wouldn't take each other's members and so I told him hey dude I'd love to have you but unfortunately we have this rule and on top of that they say he was thrown out for drug use and I don't like excessive drug use um and so if that was the case I wouldn't have wanted him anyways but at this time the only other club in the country that was accepting ex-outlaws was the pagans and i knew a guy from jiu-jitsu that i did trained with that was starting pagans chapters around the country and i put the two of them together and he has joined the p joins the pagans he starts doing a chapter in marion of the pagans and some of them were other were ex-outlaw guys or out bad outlaw guys and we had this run coming up on a saturday to like because by now things with the outlaws are getting pretty tense and so we figured well us and the pagans we'll ride around together to show that we're united you know kind of show this united front and he calls me friday night that he's outside working on his bike he hangs up the phone someone pulls up and shoots him like 14 times and he gets killed the day before our ride damn at this shortly thereafter that i get visited by the fbi i say they have credible information from an informant that there's a threat on my life and apparently some member of the outlaws was saying things like oh we got tug we're getting mooch next and and i'm gonna be very clear that i don't believe the outlaws killed tug but at the time that was what it looked like or the speculation and um do you know who killed him no but he was involved no one's been busted for it but he was involved in this like stolen bike raid thing and um i don't want to say anything that would look bad about him but there was things outside of club life that he was involved in that i think likely played a role.

3:27:04But at the same time, so I, you know, the outlaws had told us we can never have a chapter in Chicago or in Illinois. And I was very cordial with the outlaws for a long time. I sat down with them and did all the major meetings with them. I would go to their, I went to Taco Bowman's funeral. I was going to their, I was like sitting down with their national peas for several years, national presidents. We were very close. And I partied with all the ones in Illinois. And so much so, in fact, that they had four chapters down there that didn't really do anything together or get along. And I was meeting with them like once every two months, helping them be more structured.

3:27:35Wow. And so we were friends. And so I had started telling them, I go, listen, a lot of the guys here in Illinois are St. Louis Mongols out of respect for them. But the more of us there is, I go, you know, we're partying with you guys all the time. We're all friends. We hang out. Why can't we just call it Southern Illinois Mongols? The only thing different is what says on a rocker, right? We all lived in the same place, same city but when tug left or got thrown out someone else took over that chapter that didn't like us and tension started it to flare and they started saying well if you're a mongrel and you're in illinois you need to call and check in before you ride anywhere if you're going to go to a bike night you got to let us know if you're going to go to harley you got to let us know and we sure as shit weren't going to do that we'd already been there for years and my thing is when i was trying to talk to them about starting southern illinois i still always said the same thing from the minute i moved there is i have no intention of ever starting in chicago dave had told me we wouldn't we had a lot of members that lived in chicago but they were running out of like gary indiana or you know chapters around chicago it's a rough town very rough and they have a big chapter there um which the outlaws asked us to start because they said though yeah it's a fucking horrible i went there twice and was like no i'm good we can meet somewhere else but these are worse than eastst louis that's a tough call but it could be man it could be did you spend a lot lot of time in eastst louis no i rode through there once and said never again damn i used to spend a lot of time in eastst louis yeah no you know what it's where all the strip clubs there is but the hell's angels owned a lot of them so i sure as shit wasn't gonna get caught going to those they own those i did yeah are you serious yep what year i was there 2017 and left in 2024 and up until at least 23 they owned um not i didn't know there was 23 fucking strip clubs over there i thought i'd been to all of them no no i meant in 20 up until 2023 um but there's a bunch in that area that's where they all are right right there um shit where was i at strip clubs you got me distracted um anyway so yeah so that i had said how we wouldn't start in chicago we had members there our national p was still little dave at the time gary indiana yeah so We had that Gary chapter, and a lot of the Gary guys lived in Chicago.

3:29:46And again, out of respect for the Outlaws, they could live there, but their patch said Gary, and they would go to their meetings in Gary. If they were in Barhop, they'd generally do it in Gary. Same thing with Illinois guys. We went out in Mount Vernon a lot, but if we were going to go out otherwise, we'd either go to the Outlaws Clubhouse or we'd go out in St. Louis. So there's already some tension building now because this dude in Marion Outlaws is talking a bunch of shit and making threats. and then there was issues between the mongols and outlaws in florida that were and then mongols and outlaws in pennsylvania there was like we went from supposed to being friends to like these friction and a member in utah was getting a little dave's ear about how many members he had in chicago that would join if we start a chicago chapter and he just they kept getting on dave about it and they kind of gave him a sales pitch that wasn't true and dave knew i was trying to start southern illinois so dave calls me goes hey cool green light on illinois we're going to start southern illinois chicago and i go fuck you know i just told all these guys we're not i never said we wouldn't do it but i definitely said i have no interest in it we don't have any interest in it which is pretty much saying it right just didn't box myself in the corner so when we started chicago they started they tried to attack a pack in them in chicago and a couple of them got shot and ran over and then they tried to walk into a bar and shoot at some mongols but they got shot so things started going pretty heavy up there and i was getting the blame for it because i had told these guys we weren't going to do it or you know at least we had no intention and now we did it which i understand but also the way club works is when the boss says that you're doing it you're doing it and so when dave says hey we're doing it um i was in charge of it but it wasn't my decision so anyways now dave's out i get this threat on my life from you know allegedly from the outlaws tug gifts gets killed and the new leaders call the outlaws and say yeah we didn't we didn't authorized Chicago.

3:31:34That was Mooch and Dave. So my own club against this club that's supposedly trying to kill me, throws me under the bus. Why the fuck would they do that? He's at this point, they were politicking. I mean, well, A, this new leadership, this dude is not very intelligent. I mean, definitely not leadership material. He doesn't even like riding motorcycles. He even straight up said, like, he goes, yeah, I don't go above 55 miles an hour. I'll just meet you there. I'm like, why the hell are you in a club, let alone in that? Why do we need to join a gang at that point? But I mean, I don't want to sit here and bad mouth.

3:32:04So I'll digress. But in Texas, I think 2019 or so, the national club, their big club there is the Bandidos. They've always been the only one percenter club there. I was very tight with them. I used to go to meetings and party with them often. And a bunch of their Hispanic members in leadership had defected and ended up wanting to join the Mongols. And we put it up to a vote. And I had argued and voted against it, but I lost the vote. And they ended up joining. that so now banditos among us are going after it the same guys in leadership tell the banditos that was mooch and dave so i what's it like when you're partying with these guys and you have good friends in another club and then it comes down there's a mandated war it's awful man talk to them at all after that are you like hey like the hard part is they stopped talking to me because all the blame got put on me right so these dudes that i was tight with they feel they've been wronged by you yeah and they took it personal because i was i was at their funerals in their their clubhouses and we partied together you know gotcha and so i went from a year before that being able to party with almost every club in the country other than the house angels to all of them want to kill me so we got that going on but the final nail in the coffin is and this is this is a tough one but when i moved when i first moved to illinois um there was a member dealer Dan he'd been in a long time he used to live in Illinois now he's in Oklahoma so he knew a lot of people in that area so when I started St.

3:33:31Louis he kept going this is his chance right hey I got guys here I got guys here but everyone he sent to me were not people that I would bring into the club they weren't the type of people I was bringing to the club so whenever he would suggest I would start blowing it off after a while and he kept going I got these guys at Lake Ozarks I got these guys at Lake Ozarks and two of them were relatives of his and I just had this picture in my mind so I was like no no no well we went to this event called the boogie this big motorcycle rally in indiana and the ozark guys were gonna come out meet me and i figured okay at least give him a chance to meet us and they show up and majority of them were just awesome guys and there was a father son that was in it that were the ones related to dealer dan and the son was 25 24 25 he was in the army had left the army he was had done mma before most people knew what it was he was doing jiu-jitsu like we had so much in common man but this kid he was like a young bright face like good kid you know what i mean he had a lot going for him and uh dude they had so much fun that they ended up staying the night and they had nowhere to stay so they slept on the dirt and like i'm in a motor i'm in a camper and i come out these guys are sleeping in the dirt and uh i started spending time with them i'm like these these are good people man you know and so eventually they kept calling me and i called me and we did some meetings at shady jacksonst louis and finally i said i'll tell you what there was no chapter for them to prospect out of.

3:34:50And I know that the Forresteros, Galpin, Goose didn't want them there. So I said, well, let's start you guys as Raiders, the smaller club. I go, if you could sustain that chapter of the Raiders for a year, be active, support the other functions in the area and grow without getting in trouble, I'll consider making you guys all mongrels in a year. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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3:37:05Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. So we start the Raiders there. Things are going well. There's a lot of rumor mill with the Galloping Goose. There's some shit talking. A couple of little fistfights, but nothing major. And the Galloping Goose say, there's never going to be Mongols in this area. And so I made a bunch of phone calls and we ended up going to Lake of the Ozarks Bike Fest one year. 180 motorcycles and over 210 Mongols. And I had my brother came out with me and me and him are leading the pack so remember when i said i used to ride with six guys i had 180 motorcycles behind me man there's video footage of it's insane there's video of it yeah yeah i'll send you some dude it was wild um i mean that's probably the peak of my career you know and uh we made this present it's like hey you say we can't be here look at this and so there was still some threats made back and forth but it finally had chilled out and at one point some of their leadership guys called and I talked to the leader there and we just kind of agreed to ignore each other there's gonna be no beef and uh I was out to eat with my chapter one night and they were at a bike night they were these guys were at a bike night like at the bag no damn during the day and the galloping goose showed up to try and fight him and I didn't normally they would have to tell me they were going to something like this and I don't know if he knew I would have said no but But they went and the goose were outside.

3:38:30They were going bar to bar looking for him. And they come in to the bar where the Mongols are and they all buy beer. So they have bottles and they stand outside and wait for him. So Blaine decides, you know what? This isn't the time or place. Like essentially, like a what would Mooch do? Let's leave and deal with it another time. So they all walk out and he's all the way up to his bike and had turned his bike on when they attack someone in the back. So he runs up there, starts fighting. He starts hitting us with his helmet. it. Gunshots start going off and he gets shot, killed on the spot. So I'm out to lunch or I'm out to dinner with my chapter and I get a call from his dad and he says, Blaine's been shot.

3:39:09Blaine's been shot. And it was one of those moments in my head. It was just, it didn't make sense yet. You know what I mean? Sorry, but it didn't make sense. I was like, what do you mean? You know, he's okay. Right. He's, he's okay. And he goes, I don't know. No one will tell us. We So I call my wife, pack me a bag. Me and my chapter grab our bags. We get in the car. We're rushing over there to see what's going on. No one's telling us anything. And we start seeing pictures on the news. And there's a body there under a tarp and his arms hanging out. And the wristband from the boogie is on his arm.

3:39:41And it was Blaine. And he was killed. And, you know, because of decisions I made, because of a chapter I agreed to start, because I fought against my intuition of letting him join. And he did. And that hit me heavy enough that that was it for me, man. I left shortly there after that. I'm sorry, man. Yeah, I'm sorry. Give me a second.

3:40:05Sorry, man. It's all good, brother. But so between that, the politics that were going on, threats on my life, I saw the writing on the walls and I saw that I was likely going to get kicked out or pushed out. So I had retired in good standings initially, which means I can keep my patch. I can keep my T-shirts and my club stuff. I can still have contact with the club because, you know, I've been in 15 years by then. And one of our members, after Blaine got killed, you can imagine that people were pretty pissed off. And one of our members was at a bar and some outlaws came in and they got in a fight and he beat them up.

3:40:43And it was, he smacked him around. He punched him a few times, but it was nothing serious. well the outlaw press charges i mean i have the paperwork to it which that's not something we do in one percent world but it's outlaw press charges and uh so this member mike he's he's facing this court case and he ends up taking a plea bargain of a three-year suspended sentence so if he gets caught hanging out the mongols he goes to prison for three years so he wants to step away from the club for obvious reasons well i had retired he was supposed to be the president the other members in that club were his brother, his co-worker and best friend, and then the other guy from our gym, and then a homie that just moved in with him.

3:41:21That's how tight-knit our chapter was. And the Mongols have a rule, after Black Rain and everything, they had a rule that you can't retire unless you've been in for 10 years. So these guys have only been, some of them, one year, two, three years for these guys. And so they'd ask for permission to leave in good standings, and then they were going to come back when Mike can come back. I think leadership saw this as their opportunity to get rid of me. So they kept saying they're advocating for them to be in good standings. They're advocating. But then I get this phone call and they said, Hey, you know, we're sorry, but the club decided those guys are out in bad standings.

3:41:53The rules, the rules, we got to follow the rules. They're out bad, which means no contact, which means you can't have contact with them. And, you know, uh, our homeboy just died. We went through this shit together. We started this chapter together. We were doing jujitsu together. We were working out together and uh i said well hey i'm not gonna lie to you guys i'm gonna keep hanging out with these guys dude and a lot of the brothers i was tight with around the country saw it as i was taking picking them over the club but i what it was the principle for me right like those dudes that that i fell on my sword for and went with i wasn't like they're gonna be my best friends forever i didn't know but it was the per the principle right like you're gonna throw these dudes out when this dude just damn near ruined his, went to prison for years over this, and they're being loyal to their brother, and we're gonna kick him out.

3:42:42So I said, well, I'm gonna keep hanging out with him. And they said, well, you know what that means? That means you're out in bad standings, son. And I said, well, then so be it. And a message went out to everyone in the nation that Mooch has chose to move on with his life. There's no ill will, but he's on no contact. And that was it. That was the end of my club career. Fuck, man. But you know what, man? So it turned into - How long ago was it? That was the very beginning of 2022. So the blessing in disguise was if I was still retired, I would have to answer to them still, follow the rules. I wouldn't be able to be on podcasts.

3:43:17I couldn't have wrote my book. I couldn't have been doing, definitely couldn't have been going on podcasts with Excel's Angels and trying to push this peace message. And I needed that shove out the door to move on. I really needed it. So it ended up being a positive. Do you spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder? No. There's people in other clubs that still don't care for me. And that just is what it is, man. That's life. But I mean, you know, I pay attention on the people that don't like me and I know where they're at, but I don't let it affect what I'm going to do with my life. and i'm not saying that like i'm sort of badass or anything like that but it's just to me it's not i don't have beef right so if they want to that's on them but i'm not going to let it interfere with where i go and what i do have you processed your friend's death not as much as i should apparently i mean so i have stayed since then i became best friends with his mom and dad i talked to them every week we We hang out and vacation together.

3:44:24I've gotten really, really close with them. His mom just is having a very tough battle with cancer right now, which is terrible. Their family's already been through enough. But it brought us very, very close together. I mean, they're some of my best friends to this day. Good. Are you a Christian? I'm not. Why? You're from an Italian family? My family is, like, I grew up, I was baptized Episcopalian. my family well my grandpa was christian i suppose we're episcopalian we would go to church i never found religion to an extent i do believe i have my morals and values in line with with christianity and religion for the most part i believe in uh higher power but i just am in this fundamentals of do good be good do unto others and i really value that and what i do like about religion and i've seen as a strong role is especially in this age a lot of my friends have found religion and it's put them on a positive path it's helped improve their lives it's helped them become better people because it gave us something to believe in that aligned with their morals and values if that makes sense what do you think happens when you die i don't know man i i mean i grew up saying nothing you know i thought that's it but i think it's just lights out and that's it yeah i mean that's that was my thought for years I don't know where I'm at with it at this point.

3:45:50You don't know where you're at? Yeah. I mean, like I said, I've always just been a that's it. So are you exploring? Not necessarily. So more and more of my friends have gotten into religion, and I've seen it be a huge positive impact on their life. But the things that are positive are things that I already feel that are part of my life as far as that, um, the feeling of the greater good and not yourself and giving yourself to others and giving back and helping and those types of things, you know? But as far as afterlife, it's not something I really consider or haven't considered. You haven't considered what happens after you die being around that much fucking death?

3:46:31Probably because that's why I haven't probably considered, man. I was just always in the moment. there wasn't a lot of time for reflection when you're in there you know i do know because i've been a part of shit like this it was just legal yep but yeah i mean i've only been out a couple years and uh you know i've been on this mental health mission and this mental health journey and it's exposing me to more of it um are you shutting it out no i'm not opposed to it you know mel sends debate um his devotionals and and some of my homies talked to me i'm like i'm not against it i don't i love what it's done for my friends my friends that found it and it's i've seen the positive i love it i'm all about it i just don't know if it's for me only and and i couldn't even tell you why i'm not sure because i maybe it's just the structure i don't like which is funny since i'm a guy of structure right um i don't know structure huh what's structure well i just mean like the going to church and uh i guess that's it coming to church because like i said i feel like i already have a lot of those values and um i don't know i just have a lot to consider i guess when it comes to that i haven't really done a lot of reflection on it how many friends do you think you have that are dead now let me show you something

3:47:51beginning of my book is in memory of

3:47:57two full pages friends And this was three years ago. There's more. So a lot.

3:48:09You don't think any of those guys have visited you? I do as far as the lessons they taught me and the feelings, those types of things. Absolutely. Like the presence of the lessons I learned from them, the kindness that they shared or the connections that we have. I definitely feel that, 100%. I don't know. And, you know, same like my little brother that passed a long time ago. You know, there's, I just don't know if I've equated it to, like, their presence is here or it's something I carry with me and in me because I learned it from them or it's something, the impression they left on me.

3:48:50You got to dive in, man. What's that? You got to dive in. Okay. I'm sure there's a ton of shit that you're not telling me. In relations to what? All the shit you've done. Yeah, yeah. All the violence. There's only so much time, right? And then, yeah. I mean, I get it. I know you can't go into everything. Yeah. Especially since it was only, what, four years ago? Yeah.

3:49:20But if there was, if you do believe, if you think there's even an inkling of Jesus or God or heaven or hell, where do you think you're going? Good question. Good question. I don't have a necessary inkling of heaven and hell. And for me, I see it as more of a way to enforce morality, social control, but more the enforcement of morality. If you don't do these things, here's the bad things that can happen. And the thing I like about my friends that have found it in the good stuff is that they're being forgiven and moving on, and a lot of people have to unload those things to feel better. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful.

3:50:08I'm just trying to process this out loud. But I've seen it be good for people. I just have a hard time believing in hell, especially with shit I've gone through here.

3:50:30So then you got your master's. I do, from Christian College. From Christian College, Tom. Oh, the irony. I figured you'd like that one. Wow. Where at? George Fox University.

3:50:47that's actually where i got my finished my undergrad too

3:50:53have you ever looked at psychedelic therapy yeah and i'm a strong proponent i've never done it i'd love to but i'm a strong proponent of it one of my friends was uh he was actually forced recon marine as well and then became a mongol and got into addiction from the club and went through a lot got out and um now advocates for for that type of therapy uh well he's doing psilocybin mainly because he's doing stuff in the United States but he's really advocating it for vets and treatment like that and I've you know as a therapist I've read the studies and I and I know people have done it and that the outcomes have been amazing I mean one of my close friends that was also marine and was a mongol he was probably one of the grouchiest meanest people I met man and actually took him to meet Mel back in March and I was like dude what has changed like he was peppy and happy and he went to Mexico and did one of those treatments and said it helped him put his life in the focus and uh was more confident with himself and he was i mean it changed him in the most positive way the amazing way you talked to cody about it cody alford and i've seen him posting stuff about it but i would never like sat down and talked about it but i'm all for it i think it's great i've done it i'd love to do it changed my whole fucking life man yeah i bet i mean i bet it's awesome and i feel like uh the stuff i have to process would be great but you know there's always barriers to treatment like that when it's expensive you got to go to the country and there's things like that where it's like it's that that social services in a nutshell right like there's a lot of people that can benefit from great services but it's getting them connected to the services that's the challenge do you want to do it i'd love to do it it's a financial thing absolutely i'm a social worker bro i don't i'm pretty what if i get you a slot let's go i love it man all right i think i can probably get that done that'd be amazing man it'd be that would be amazing you can go to the same place i went mbo okay that'd be awesome man ibogaine that's why that's what the a lot of the new stuff studies are coming out that i read about

3:53:01i think if you do that you'll realize there's a lot more after that Yeah. They said I'm open.

3:53:09Can I give you something? Yeah.

3:53:29It's easy. Okay. It's called the Jesus Calling. one thing a day takes about 60 seconds. Okay. I'll give you my word. I'll read it. Just give it a shot. Okay. See if it see if it speaks to you. Absolutely. I'll let you know. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. You're welcome, man. And I'm serious. I'll talk to Trevor at MBO and I will see if I can get you a slot. That'd be amazing, man. Thank you so much. You'll go? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I'm all in. Fucking A, man. It'd be great. So tell me about being a therapist. It's been incredible, man. And like I said, so initially I'd started, one of the things I really resonated with that first was I was doing group therapy for perpetrators of domestic violence.

3:54:20And a moment I will never forget is it was me and a woman co-facilitator. And, you know, essentially we're breaking these generational habits and learned behaviors and all sorts of cultural stuff right and we're sitting in this room with all these guys they're court ordered and the topic is of possessiveness or control over how a woman dresses and this guy was like yeah i would never let my woman go out and address that short he looks at me he's like right brother because he thought i was in the class and i was like nah man you know and then class went on whatever six months later he's getting ready to go out a new guy comes in the new guy says damn near the same thing and this guy goes that's not cool bro i was like yes and i remember being at Walmart and a guy from class going babe babe this is the guy I was telling you about and then I was at the other grocery store dude was with his homie he's like bro bro this is the dude I was telling you about and like so seeing the positive outcomes and the change like not only did it change his life but obviously the women that come into contact with him really really motivated me and then I got into doing a therapy I do now with with at-risk youth and um I do multi-systemic therapy so I work with kids from 11 to 17 they're at risk of being being placed outside the home and So either correctional settings or foster care with the goal of keeping the youth in the home.

3:55:32And although it's called therapy, I'm not really sitting down with the youth and asking about how he feels or even addressing his trauma. What we look into is what are all the systematic factors that are driving this behavior. So, for example, say the youth smoking weed, which is just the easy example. We'll find out where's his access? What's his supervision like at home? Like, where does he smoke? Is he being supervised? Does he go to his friend's house? Does his mom know, does the caregiver know who the peers are, how he's paying for it? And then we meet with the parents and we develop these interventions such as rewards and consequences, increased supervision, support.

3:56:06So if mom's at work, who's watching the youth? If youth is going to a friend's house, does mom know who friends are? They talk to the parents. So we teach these parenting skills, so to speak, to parents so that when we're no longer in the home, they can continue this. And we see amazing, amazing results. It's, you know, it's a scientific approach to it. So the evidence is supporting as long as we adhere to the model. And it's really, I mean, it's powerful, man. You know, seeing these kids are, because I know firsthand, right, what it's like to be on paper and be involved in the system and having a hard time getting out.

3:56:36And so teaching these positive skills to both parents and kids, because a lot of these parents are, in this day and age, especially in that reality, it's a lot of single parent households. and the single parent is working a ton and, you know, maybe didn't have good role models growing up in their lives. So not knowing how to parent. So these, all of these different things where we're going in and we're, cause it's, it's an intensive service where we meet them in the home, then we'll come to us and we go two, three times, sometimes four times a week. We only see five or six clients at a time. So it's a very intense sentence for 120 days.

3:57:09120 days. Yeah. So anywhere between the highest we can go up to 150 but it's generally the average is 120 days of us in the home wow and seeing because that way you know when we say okay here let's develop say a bedtime nighttime routine so because the youth is not sleeping or you know not waking up in the morning so okay well what's access to the computer or their phone or you know whatever all the stuff we look at it we'll do it in the home like if they say you know johnny won't wake up at 7 a.m to go to school i've tried this this and this so cool next sessions at 7 a.m i'll be there with you when you try and wake them up, see what happens.

3:57:41And now if we're there and we see it, we can see what's driving that behavior, right? And then we could systematically attack which driver we want to do, what interventions we're going to do. And essentially a lot of those interventions will generalize to the other behavior. So once those things increase, sometimes, you know, leaving without permission might get better or the backtalk or verbal aggression, all of these things. And so that's been really cool. So I'm a clinical supervisor of that now. So I don't normally see clients anymore but i oversee two teams so i'm anywhere from three to six therapists when i do that and i help them develop the treatment plans and then i also shadow go to the home and make sure they're adhering to the model and then um another thing i started about a year ago you see yourself in a lot of these kids when you work yeah yeah for sure i mean yes and no so like you know there's that adage that people join gangs wherever because of poor family life and i never i had an amazing family you know and a lot of what i see is single family households and different generations, different cultures.

3:58:38You know, I'm on the East Coast versus back in Oregon. But a lot of things are the same. And what I see a lot is that the role of pro-social activities, sports, clubs, the role that plays in keeping the youth out of trouble and teaching them positive lessons where there's so many budget cuts, funding, or these rural areas that don't even have, you know, to have the means to do this. So there isn't a lot of sports or after-school programs or all these things that I had as a kid, right? It's like school's out and kid goes home until eight o 'clock when mom gets home and who knows what's happening in between.

3:59:11And they're not getting these pro-social activities or not having these positive peers in the same environment. You know what I mean? And so they're often left unsupervised with, what do you think teenagers do when they're left unsupervised, man? Usually not good shit, right? So there's those similarities that I think you see with a lot of youth. But what I do see is what it's like to be in the system, to be on probation and the pushback against authority once you get there. you know all those things that come with it i'll bet they can relate with you a lot yeah yeah i mean that was my argument from the very first day with that organ youth authority is that you know part of therapy is we don't self-disclose but i don't have to tell them my story from them look at me and go this guy gets it you know and that's been a big strong suit i mean it's been awesome um and then i started this thing called devil's advocate which is a right now it's just a one one day a week men's group it's monday nights but a lot of the men that come to us they're either former motorcycle club members military members some of them have been in prison and we really address this piece which we i could talk about we also do on the patch podcast of when someone devote devotes the majority of their adult life to something and they leave it whether it's a club or a gang or the military even law enforcement the struggle of finding your identity again who are you what's your purpose right what's your goals and helping people align with that by hearing the stories of others that have been in similar situations, by hearing what worked for other people or what didn't work.

4:00:37So it's like this group collective of, you know, helping each other. And then another big, you know, we do, we have, we'll do anger management stuff to some extent through that way, emotional regulation and, you know, the parts of not letting other people control your emotions, right? Like being confident with who you are as a person, knowing who you are so you don't care what other people think, like all these topics we discuss on. and that's been really really powerful and the bonds that I built in there and the changes I've seen in people there has been something where I definitely want to grow that program and see what I can do about getting getting to getting through to more people with that it's fucking awesome dude thanks man yeah it's been uh it's been very rewarding but it's just been really cool you know the connections I made that the people I've met especially when we're going through these journeys together, like the men's group and stuff, like far outweighs the brotherhood that I thought I missed leaving the club.

4:01:33Do you miss it? I don't, man. People ask me often, you miss it or would you go back? And I would be a strong no to both of those. Not in a negative way. The majority of it I enjoyed and I learned a lot of great lessons. But my life, my morals, my values, my life is no longer aligned with that life. I feel like I'm on a different path and um like when people ask me a lot hey I want to join people hit me up on social media all the time and ask questions and I try and respond to everybody when I can and I always say well if you're thinking they say I want to join a club you think it's good I said well write down all the positives it could potentially bring to your life how could it make your life better and how can it make your life worse what are the risks and then you tell yourself if it's going to be good for you or not because I don't want to talk anyone out of it, you know?

4:02:16Um, but you know, the, the risks, a lot of the times these are guys that are in their, like where I was in my mid twenties, early thirties, trying to figure out what am I going to be doing? What am I supposed to be doing? And they're like, well, you know, I'd love to be a part of something and have these brothers. And it's, it's an attractive lifestyle. But if you start thinking of the risk of death, prison, you know, all the stuff that comes with it, um, especially if you're married and you have a family, I'm not saying there's a lot of members that are good members and good husbands and have good jobs.

4:02:46So I'm not saying that you can't do it, but I'm saying it makes things challenging and it's an extra stress in your life, and it's not for everybody. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is your wife a Christian? No. No? I don't think her... I don't know if her family's not very religious in general.

4:03:09What's next for you?

4:03:37how long you're in. I want to help the guys that are ready to put it behind them and move on. And there's a member from the Hells Angels named Pee Wee that started this Facebook group called Brothers for Life. And it's a lot of ex-members of the major clubs around there. And it's just a Facebook group, but they meet up once a year. And I went to their meetup last year, which was wild. One of them asked me, so we just still got that tattoo. but um there was a guy on there that posted not that long ago he was a member from cleveland and his i don't know if it was his blood brother if he said brother because it was the club but his his brother from the hell's angels was murdered by a mongol and he wrote on there he said that his brother was murdered by cowards and normally i think that might have triggered me because if you think, like I said before, both sides feel vindicated, right?

4:04:28So I wrote him back and I said, well, first of all, dude, just so you know, I mean, sorry for your loss, but I said, this group is for guys that put that life behind them and it sounds like you might still have some strong feelings towards that club. I said, secondly, it's terrible what happened to your brother, but we could go back and forth. I could say the same thing. I've had members murdered by cowards, right? I go, what you really need to do is take a step back and you're going to be mad at the soldiers, be mad at the war. What caused that to happen? And they sent me the longest, nicest message, and now we're friends and we talk a lot, because it really changed the way he thought.

4:05:00Instead of blaming someone else or calling someone a coward or anything else, it was the situation. It was this ongoing war where people are fighting over a piece of cloth. And I think the more people that start to recognize that, hopefully maybe that'll help it stop. But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm going to be the change to make it happen, but if I can help a couple people, man, then it'd be great. I think you've already helped a lot of people, man. Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome. How's your brother doing? My brother's doing good, man. My brother's doing good.

4:05:32Is he still in? No, he retired in good standings right before me, but he is in good standings, so we're not supposed to hang out together or post pictures together because he still follows the rules of the club since he's in good standings. But he's on the other side of the coast. He's got two awesome kids. his wife, who he's been with since we were in the Vagos, so 20 years now. Wow. It worked. Yeah, yeah. She's awesome. Their kids are amazing. He owns a house for adults with developmental disabilities, so he works with, well, I said adults with developmental disabilities, but yeah, he owns a group home for adults with developmental disabilities, so he works kind of in the field too, and he's helping others.

4:06:16Yeah, he's been doing really well. Good, man. Good. life's gotten good man life's been good i'm happy for you dude thank you so much you're a good person i appreciate that my pleasure thanks so much for having me on man this has been great it was an honor i'll be praying for you man i appreciate it i'll definitely read the book and let you know how i feel for sure you don't have to yeah i like to follow up it'll give me a accountability cool you know mel's gonna be on your ass after he sees this i'm sure he will I'm sure he will. He talked to me a little bit about it before I came on. Cool. Well, Booch, it was an honor, man.

4:06:56Thank you so much. I love the story, and I know there's a lot more. I want to start focusing on the second half more. Good for you. I appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you.

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