Copa del Rey Final Preview

0:07Hello everyone and welcome to this week's TSFP preview podcast. It's Friday where we usually look ahead to what's coming up in La Liga at the weekend. There is no La Liga this weekend, but there is the small matter of the Copa del Rey final. Atletico Madrid against Real Sociedad. Me and Sidney are both going to be there tomorrow, so we thought we'd look ahead to that game, but also, obviously, firstly, reflecting on last night, Sid. Eh? Eh?

0:35Phil Kitromilides:It was brilliant, you know? I mean, it was a bad day for Spanish football, to be fair. Betis and Celta both going out of the Europa League. Won't somebody think of the coefficient, Sid? But Rayo's saving it. Isn't it amazing to put it in those terms, by the way? Rayo, the most dysfunctional, collapsing, terrible club in Spain are rescuing Spanish football and its coefficients. Terrible in terms of logistical organisation. Yeah, and as a football team, absolutely brilliant. Which puts into context their achievement as a team. We were back and forth a little bit last night. I was, anyway, from the two games.

1:13Phil Kitromilides:Now, obviously, you had one particular game. I'd watched Celta earlier and they just weren't up for it. The nicest thing about Celta's game was the response at the end. Now, if I say the players stood and applauded the fans and the fans applauded them back despite losing 6-1, you might go, so what? It went on for about 25 minutes. Well, it felt like 25 minutes. It might not have been quite that long, but it was a long time of them just standing there. Barry Aspas looked like he was going to break down into tears in any moment. I was impressed by how many people hadn't left. Yeah, exactly. No one left.

1:40Phil Kitromilides:They all left. They all stayed. They applauded the team. It was really quite something, you know? And I thought that what it did was it reinforced what they're doing, which is about identity. It's about a community. It's not just about how well the team's playing. And I think it will be good for them in the long term. The other two games, Betis and Rayo playing at once. That Rayo, what would you say, 15 minutes before they scored the goal that eventually put them through, before Issy's goal? Well, I would say they started well after about eight minutes. They had a couple of chances. Then from eight minutes to 51 minutes, they were terrible.

2:22Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, but I thought that that pocket before they scored was extraordinary. Because it's one thing being terrible and being overrun, which they were. That period, from the first bit of the second half until when they scored. They couldn't kick the ball. Exactly. No, no, it was bizarre. It was like someone had put their legs on the wrong way around. They couldn't sort of stand up. They couldn't kick the ball. They couldn't make a tackle. They couldn't control it. It was really weird. It was like someone had literally messed with their minds, like given some electric shock or something, and they just couldn't do anything.

2:56Phil Kitromilides:It was so incredibly bad that it was almost funny. I know obviously for you, it absolutely wouldn't have been funny. This is weird. And then wham, a brilliant goal out of nowhere. And that put them through and Raya in the semifinal. It's fantastic. Absolutely ridiculous. First time ever they've made a European semifinal. It's only their second ever European campaign. campaign in 2001 they reached the quarterfinals of the UEFA Cup and were knocked out by Alaves, the eventual finalists, and now they're going to play Strasbourg in the semi-finals. A little bit of context. I'm looking forward to that.

3:29Phil Kitromilides:A little bit of context this, Phil, I think is worth saying, is that it's only the second time they're in Europe and last time they got in Europe it was because of the Fair Play League. So this is the first time they've qualified for Europe, albeit it's true that last year a lot of teams got into Europe. So maybe it's not the achievement it once would have been. But it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yes, tremendous stuff from Rayo. Considerably less tremendous from Betis, who had a two-goal advantage over Braga. And then they scored, I think it was one that was ruled out by VAR to make it three.

4:03And they somehow lost 4-3 on the night yesterday. Was it 4-3? It was 4-3 on the night.

4:09Phil Kitromilides:And the 4-2. 4-2. Yeah, because I switched over. Sorry. Yeah, my mind for a minute there. Hang on. How many was it? Well, the three, when we thought they were winning 3-0, albeit it was taken off of them, that was a moment when I thought, well, this game's gone. I'll watch the other one. Betts' were so much on top and it was so comfortable and it was done. And then it's not done. No, very much not done. And by doing that, Betts' shot themselves in the foot doubly because they went out of the Europa League and he absolutely mashed up the coefficient as well. Spain were in a really good position to get the fifth Champions League spot.

4:47And now they are just a few points ahead of Germany, who obviously have the massive over of Bayern in the Champions League, who could well win it. And if they win it, then Spain are in trouble. Yeah.

5:00Phil Kitromilides:And just to clarify why that's a double hit on themselves, because you didn't quite say it, is that because that fifth spot would have been Betis's or could have been Betis's. So, Betis have denied themselves a place in the semi-final of a European competition. And they might have denied themselves the chance to put their current position being a Champions League place. So, yeah, they are sideshow Bob treading on that rake. Yes, just constantly smashing themselves in the face with a rake. All right. Bad night for Spanish football, but a terrific night for Rayo. And it will live long in our memories.

5:35And tomorrow, Sid, we've got the Copa del Rey final in Seville at the Estadio de la Cartuja. It's Atletico Madrid against Real Sociedad. Real Sociedad won this competition during the COVID-19 pandemic. There were no fans there. They beat Athletic Club. And it was a, well, it wasn't really an event or a spectacle at all because there were no fans there. They haven't had a competition there with fans, which they'd won since 1987, right? Or, well, a competition, a final since 1987.

6:07Phil Kitromilides:Exactly. So it's going to be very special for them. Atletico Madrid haven't been in a final of the Copa del Rey since 2013. It's been an incredible week for Atletico Madrid because they got through to the semifinals on Tuesday night of the Champions League. Real Madrid went out on Wednesday, which is always good for them in the Champions League. And now they've got this Copa del Rey final as well. Lettia, big favourites for this? Yeah, in theory they are. I think there are a lot of mitigating factors that mitigate. There you go. Balga la redundancia, as they say in Spanish. Yeah, a lot of mitigating factors that mitigate that.

6:45Phil Kitromilides:I think the fact that they played in midweek, while obviously the emotional boost is fantastic for them. Obviously, there's a tiredness element to it. I think they do come up against a very strong team and an adaptable team. and one I think that's been preparing this for a while, even as they've been playing well in La Liga, apart from last weekend when they allowed a lead to slip and drew 3-3. But Raul Sociedad are another team who currently believe there's a chance of them getting that final Champions League place if it's fifth, which it might not be now. I think fourth probably will be beyond them.

7:20Phil Kitromilides:And Atletico Madrid are a brilliant side. And this really is big for them. You know, Copa del Rey, do you know what? Barcelona and Real Madrid fans might have to forgive me for saying this. I like the Copa del Rey when it's everyone else's competition, if you see what I mean. Now, obviously, it needs Real Madrid and Barcelona to be in it occasionally to re-infuse it with the idea that this is really big and this really matters. But it's fantastic when you get clubs for whom this really is their season, or not just their season, a historic moment for them to go and possibly win a Copa del Rey. It infuses the final with an importance that I think is really enjoyable.

7:55Phil Kitromilides:Seville will be absolutely packed with people and a lot of fun. And yes, Atletico Madrid are favourites and it matters to them. As you said, not won a Copa de la Re final since 2013, when of course they won the final at the Bernabeu against Real Madrid in an extra time with that Medanda goal. That's the beginning, if you like, of the Simeone era. So this is the beginning of that early run where they have his first full season. So his first half season, he gets them into European play. His first full season wins the Copa de la Re against Real Madrid at the Bernabeu. second full season wins the league title against Barcelona at the Camp Nou you then of course have two Champions League finals in in three years albeit um he doesn't win either of them you get a Europa League final what is it two years after that I think if I'm writing I think I'm writing if I remember rightly it's 2018 but Atletico Madrid have not been back to a to a Copa del Rey final it's not just they've not won it they've not been back to a final and this really really matters them.

8:50Phil Kitromilides:I think obviously in the context of what happened in midweek, you could now look at it and feel like it matters less. But I don't think that's true. I think this is huge for them. No, I don't think it matters any less either. It is absolutely massive. For Atletico de Madrid, two league meetings this season. They met in Rino Materazzo's first game in charge back on the 4th of January, finished 1-1. And then we had an entertaining game in Madrid just over a month ago, which Atleti won 3-2 at the Metropolitanos. Those are the two games that we've had previously this season. Between these two sides, you've done a fantastic interview, Sid, with Rino Materazzo for ESPN.

9:32Go and seek it out and read it, guys, because it's a really tremendous work from Sydney, as per. Rino really sort of opened up to you, Sid. He's got an incredible backstory. We've mentioned it, but I think you in that piece particularly just hammered home the idea of how much this guy was obsessed with trying to make a career in football when really he had many other options. And to go and be a lower league player in Germany, play fourth division football, third division football in Germany, when you have a degree from Columbia University in applied mathematics, and then to stay there and to make it your life.

10:11This is his absolute life's dream to be involved in professional football. And this is the pinnacle of that. I know he's only 48. So he's still, this is his first, with respect to Stuttgart and Hoffenheim, this is his first shot at a bigger, I don't know, OK, maybe Stuttgart aren't bigger than Real Sociedad. I don't know. But this is the, he's on people's, a lot of people's radar now for the first time. And this is going to be by far the biggest game of his career so far. It's an incredible job what he's done so far since he took over at Real Sociedad at Christmas. If the league started then, they'd be fourth.

10:49He took over when they were 16th, battling relegation. He's now got them fighting potentially for the Champions League and into this final. It is an incredible job. And it's an extraordinary story, Sid, which I think you told very well in that piece. Thank you.

11:02Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, yeah, no, it really is. And so to give you the basic overview of it, the son of Italian immigrants to the US from both of them, both of his parents from the area near Naples down in southern Italy, grew up with his parents in New Jersey in the US where football was a very, very popular participant sport, but not a popular sport in terms of, you know, its place within the sporting structure of the United States. but very much at least the way he sees it. And it's curious actually, because I was talking to someone from a similar area of the US last night and he said to me, you know, I think football was more popular than he believes, than Matarazzo believes.

11:43Phil Kitromilides:But Matarazzo sees it as part of, if you like, that Italian community. Growing up playing football was part of being part of an Italian community. He gets the chance to go to Columbia University. Now the caveat here, as he does make this point, is that you partly get into Columbia University through your footballing ability, through the sport. but he gets a degree in applied mathematics and of course everybody thinks right brilliant a big city law firm sorry not a big city law firm a big city banking firm opens up for you now you could make a lot of money but he's determined to chase it he tries a trial in Italy doesn't come off he goes to Germany he gets to play over a nine-year period in Germany's third and fourth tiers which are regionalized isn't quite good enough to build a really big career but it's but it's a but it's a it's an occupation for him you know it makes him enough money to to to get by he he's starting to come towards the end quite young as professional players go i think 28 29 and and then again that option opens up you think well obviously look you've got a degree in applied mathematics you've got that possibility of city firms you've got that possibility of getting into banking says no i'm going to carry on with this i want to be a coach and there's lots of moments during that period where it doesn't doesn't look like it's going to work out like it looks like he's going to have to abandon it, like he's not making the kind of money that really makes you comfortable at all.

12:58Phil Kitromilides:And then, as you say, through Stuttgart and through Hoffenheim, originally through Nuremberg's second team, he gets a chance to coach. And this now, at Roussard today, is the really big one for him. It's the first time he's been in a final. Shall I admit this? Go on. I'll admit this. He does the cliché thing. He said, well, I suppose you could say I've been in games that were a bit like finals because it was the game to go up and a game to rescue a team from one of my teams from relegation in Germany with Stuttgart and with Hoffenheim but this is a first final and one there's lots of things that make what he's done at Real Sociedad extraordinary one of the things that I liked about this and maybe this says something about me as well as much as about him is that one of the things that has made him embrace Real Sociedad and made people in Donosti embrace him is his willingness to do precisely that to embrace it as a culture, as a city, as a community, as a sense that this is my place.

13:51Phil Kitromilides:And I mean, how could you not when you turn up in a city like Donosti? But he has really felt at home, even though he's not entirely his son, his wife are back in Germany, because his son's still got a year and a half to go, years to go at high school. But he's been absolutely phenomenal. And he's been phenomenal because he's embraced them as well as trying to change them. you sort of spent a day with him in San Sebastian for this for this piece he comes across really sort of thoughtful intelligent articulate with a sort of little bit of a bubbling intensity that you get with I think you know top managers someone who's a real thinker someone who's actually really good at explaining his ideas and his concepts as well and from what I've been told from people close to the Real Sociedad dressing room, they've really bought into it.

14:43He came in, and this was a guy that not a lot of people had heard of, let's be honest. No one had heard of this guy. And he came in, and he won the dressing room over pretty quickly. They bought into his idea. And this is a guy who didn't speak Spanish. He's learning it now, and he can understand it, and he's trying to do some of his press conferences and pretty much interviews in Spanish. But it was all in English to begin with. and they saw, I think, you know, the players saw something in him. He obviously saw a lot in the players as well, but the players saw something in this guy and was like, hold on, I think this guy knows what he's talking about.

15:17This guy has a pretty clear idea of what he wants us to do and they've improved massively under him. And to be fair, he did have a really good core of underperforming players. Oh, absolutely.

15:30Phil Kitromilides:And he would certainly be the first to say that, that when he looked at the team that had got 16 points from 16 games, then had an interim manager got one more point. So he comes in at 17 points from 17 games. And they're only two points, I think, from relegation at that point, which is actually one point better than they'd been the week before, before the interim managers took over. But he looked at it and thought, this team's good. There's a lot here. It doesn't take very much for this to start moving in the right direction. And he was very conscious. And he's very interesting during the day, talking about the mechanics of trying to get a reaction.

16:04Phil Kitromilides:and the mechanics of, and one of the things he said, which is the most simple thing of all, but he said, you start with the things that can take you the long furthest with the least energy, with the least effort. That was the things that are simple, that make an effort because you're building the smaller things, but that's the thing that gets everyone saying, okay, it's working. It's heading in the right direction. And one of the main things was about changing the way in which they press teams and the way in which they go at teams, having fewer moments on the ball, but being more decisive with it, being more energetic, being more energetic in everything, off the pitch as well, in terms of delivery to players, in terms of training sessions, in terms of how you play the game, going at people.

16:39Phil Kitromilides:You look at the players you've got and you say, well, we've got a player like Geris, we've got a player like Oya Thabal. And that's before we even talk about the rest, they're also very good players. How can we be in this position? How can we get the best out of those players and play in a way that works? Now, obviously, you have a degree there at which you are at the mercy of results because you can play well and still not get the results. And the best example of it, I suppose, is the Barcelona game. So the first game they get a draw with Atletico Madrid. They beat Barcelona. Now, of course, this is where Matarazzo would disagree with me in terms of the way I'm framing it now.

17:10Phil Kitromilides:And in fact, we talked about this and he said this, which is that the Barcelona game is the game where you go, wow, there's something here. And his point would be, no, the Barcelona game is where people outside think, wow, there's something here. People inside know that we've been doing good things until now. And he said, also, people inside, we know we got quite lucky that night. And Barcelona absolutely battered them. There's no two ways about it. The highest ever XG recorded in La Liga, I think, or something. I think you might be right. Yeah, I remember talking about it at the time. And yet they held on, they 1-0 up, they hold on, they get equalised on, and then they respond immediately 2-1.

17:44Phil Kitromilides:And what Matarazzo will tell you is that, yes, we were lucky, but that moment in which we responded at 2-1 was also part of the discourse, which is, how do we react when things are against us? How do we keep going? How do we maintain that process? Because if you look at Real Southad in the first 15 games, They were a team that as soon as it went against them would crumble. And so that changed. This also speaks to what we're talking about, about the embracing of them, coming in and delivering messages in Spanish, even in Basque, the opening messages. But in English, this is, I think, really quite interesting.

18:16In English, with subtitles.

18:19Phil Kitromilides:So he would do his team talk and it would be on the board and there would be subtitles. He would do parts of his discussion with them very slowly in English, mixing up languages. he believes that actually mixing language helps. That far from this assumption that we have that players can't understand it, actually mixing it up can be useful. That you do some individualised conversations with those players who can understand you in English or Italian or German. You do some stuff in Spanish. But I remember talking, I think I told you this at the time, and I think it was after the Barcelona game. And by the way, here is where I hold up my hands and say, Reno, I'm as guilty as everyone else.

18:51Phil Kitromilides:It's the Barcelona game when I start, when I first write about them. Why? Because of course this is the headline game. But it's really the headline game that underlines the good things that they're doing already. And Alex Romero that night said, you know, he came in and there was a closeness about him and he spoke to us in English, but really slowly, really clearly in very short, simple concepts that we could grasp. And of course, one of the things here is that that simple concept is about delivery, not necessarily about the concept and the work being simple because the concept of the work is quite complex in the analysis, but the delivery to the players in things that they can understand.

19:30Phil Kitromilides:And there is, I think, in this final as well, there's something like that. There's something that Matarazzo said to me. Funny enough, I should say this now, not in this interview, in another interview I did with him, which is coming out in the Guardian tomorrow, where there's some of these similar themes, but some new stuff as well, in which he said, if you look at Atletico Madrid, and I think this is really interesting. If you look at Atletico Madrid, they're very flexible. And he said, and they're very difficult to analyse. It's very difficult to define. And then he said something very interesting.

19:59Phil Kitromilides:He said, and even if you can define them, you being the coach, your analytics team, your staff, they're very difficult to then communicate that definition to your players. So you've got to come up with ways, solutions to that, solutions to the players understanding what this means. And I think that tells you something about a player, sorry, manager, who is about the in-depth analysis of the football tactical side of it, but also the reaching of players and the communication of it. Now, you'll be listening to this at home or on the bus or wherever you listen to this podcast and think, well, of course, all managers do that.

20:34Phil Kitromilides:Of course they do. The interesting thing with him is how successful he's been at doing it, how quickly it's happened, and talking to him, you can see why. Because he's totally convincing.

20:46Okay, Real Sociedad with their manager from New Jersey, Rino Materazzo. There's also someone else from New Jersey he could be involved in this game as well on the other side. Of course there is.

20:56Phil Kitromilides:I've forgotten about that, yeah. Yes. I want to not necessarily dwell on Jody Cardoso. I want to talk about Diego Subioni. How likely is it, Sid, that this is his last season at Atletico Madrid? I got asked this the other day. Yeah. And I started thinking, I don't think this Copa del Rey final conditions too much, although it might help if he wants to go out on a high. If he wins the Copa del Rey in the Champions League, it's the Champions League really, isn't it? The Champions League is the mic drop. I've done. I'm done. Yeah, 100%. So if you ask this question in sort of general terms, is this the last season for Simeone?

21:29Phil Kitromilides:I would say to you, no. No, I mean, there's nothing for us to indicate that it would be, right? He's building something new. And there's a new generation of players coming in. He said something that I thought was striking post-game the other day. He talked about, I've been here for 14 years. It's been new teams. We've redeveloped things. We've built again. We've started again. And it was said with an enthusiasm about this current generation, or not this generation, but this kind of new team with Griezmann about to go, with Koke coming towards the end, although they've both played big roles this year, which we didn't anticipate.