Fishing in choppy waters

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0:47Phil Kitromilides:like how you should only drink Jägermeister at zero degrees Fahrenheit, ice cold, like those frozen cavemen they find, which makes you wonder, what would a caveman think of Jägermeister? Well, if you served it warm, he'd probably throw it in your face, say, Oonga Boonga, and storm off. And nobody wants that. So drink it cold or not at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur, 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Mast Jägermeister, U.S., White Plains, New York.

1:20Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's edition of the Spanish Football Podcast. I'm Phil Kittrema. ladies I'm joined but I'm somewhat bedraggled but still lovely Sid Lowe. Hello Sidley, you all right? Good morning Philip, how are you? Good, good, good. The morning after the night before, Sid's in Barcelona in a below par hotel by his standards.

1:41Phil Kitromilides:Well not by my standards just certain, it's a very tall hotel, it's a very tall hotel where the lifts don't work very well. So you think you're you know one minute from your hotel room, you might still be 15 minutes from your hotel room. That's a design flaw, I would say. It's a very big design flaw, yeah. You were in Barcelona at the Camp Nou last night to see Barcelona be proclaimed champions, beating Real Madrid by two goals to nil. More on that to come in just a second. There were other fixtures in La Liga this weekend. The Clasico always tends to eclipse everything else, but not on this show, guys.

2:19Not on this show. We will talk about other things as well. This is what happened on Matchday 35. Levante produced a massive win for them. They were 2-0 down after 20 minutes at home to Osasuna, but they came back and won 3-2, thanks in large part by Osasuna goalkeeper Sergio Herrera, just getting himself sent off in one of the most bizarre sequences I've ever seen. He just came running out of his penalty area to try and get to a ball, doesn't get it, and just decides to handle it instead, like 20 metres outside the box. It's unbelievably weird.

2:51Phil Kitromilides:It's like he doesn't realise he's outside the box, even though he's a very, very long way outside his box. Bizarre, really bizarre. And Levante ended up winning, which is massive for them and obviously has a lot of effect on many other teams at the bottom of the table. Saturday saw El Chin Alaves play out a 1-1 draw. Sevilla with an unbelievably important and equally dramatic 2-1 win against Espanyol. Espanyol still haven't won in 18 games. Atletico Madrid beaten 1-0 at home by Celta Vigo. Borja El Panda Iglesias scoring the only goal of the game. What a goal it is. Go and watch it because it's magnificent.

3:29And Real Sociedad and Real Betis playing out a 2-2 draw in San Sebastián. A drama, an incident-filled game which Betis should have won. They were 2-0 up. And then Real Sociedad really could have won with some very good chances injury time. Mallorca and Villarreal played out a 1-1 draw on Sunday. Valencia went to Bilbao and beat Athletic Club 1-0. Huge result for them. Oviedo and Getafe 0-0. And Barcelona beating Real Madrid 2-0. Monday night, footballers in Vallecas. It's Rio against Girona. If Girona get a point, then Oviedo are officially mathematically relegated. Now, the season is almost over, but the content never stops.

4:11If you want full TSFP coverage of the World Cup this summer and Spain's inevitable march towards the trophy, If you join us at patreon.com forward slash TSFP, Sid and Al are both going to be there. And over the summer, as always, we're podding exclusively for patrons. You can sign up from€4.75 a month. It is even cheaper if you get annual membership. So, Sidney, the Classico, hey? How about that Classico, huh?

4:35Phil Kitromilides:How about it? It was, I suppose, in some ways, a portrait of the way the season's been, in that fundamentally Barcelona were just too good, that there were only very brief moments when you thought Madrid might make a game of it. They had a tiny little bit of a flurry in the middle of the first half and then a little bit of a flurry towards the start of the second and probably should have had a penalty when Bellingham went down in the area with what looks suspiciously like an elbow from Eric Garcia. But fundamentally, this was Barcelona being the better side, comfortably being the better side. And actually, not, it seemed to me, really, really going for the throat.

5:12Phil Kitromilides:I think one of the reasons why they didn't go for the throw is that that moment that I mentioned, that Real Madrid looked like they might get in the game. They got a couple of balls over the top. There's a chance for Garcello Garcia, which he put just wide. There's a moment when Bellingham breaks through and he's got the opportunity to deliver the cross to the far side and it gets cut out, I think, by Eric Garcia. There's a moment after that, which I loved, which is Pedri saying, whoa, and literally putting his foot on the ball. Stop. We play. And we don't let this become wild. At this point, Barcelona were already 2-0 up.

5:42Phil Kitromilides:And then Barcelona just played their way to the title. Rondo. It was basically one wrong rondo, wasn't it? Yeah. And, you know, there was a little bit of a flurry of activity, as I say, in the second half. From momentarily, it got confrontational, which I think probably would have suited Real Madrid more than Barcelona. I did notice, and I know this is a bit cruel, but when there was a first set two and the players kind of waded in on each other, the last man onto the scene, in fact, the man who didn't want to be on the scene was Chiomeni. He wasn't going to get involved in this particular fight.

6:11Phil Kitromilides:and Barcelona were just stronger than them, better than them, better with the ball all the way through the game. But for Courtois, maybe there would have been a couple of more goals as well. And it was them completing a league title in which basically since October, they have been much, much the better side. And yet on February the 16th, Sid, Real Madrid were top. Yes. And I should hold up my hands here and be honest about this. And it's only about six or eight weeks ago when I said, laughing admittedly, But I said, Brahma and Jutta are going to win the league, aren't they? Because at that point, he thought, how can they keep being this bad?

6:45Phil Kitromilides:Well, at least I thought this. I'm not going to accuse you of thinking this. How can they keep being this bad and still be this close to the top of the table? I've seen this moment before. And it's one of those where they're going to somehow get away with it. And they absolutely have not got away with it. We were very much aligned in our thinking, Sid, on that particular subject. Do we pick stuff out about yesterday's game? because I think it's difficult to sort of analyse that game given the context. But, you know, I'm sure there are things that you will want to pick up on. Well, I suppose you pick up on it in the context of the season, don't you?

7:18Phil Kitromilides:OK. Which is to say that, I mean, let's talk about... Maybe let's run through some of them quickly that I thought were a portrait of the season. One, obviously, is the one I've already mentioned, which is Pedri saying, right, we play. And that's what Pedri's done most of the year. I think he's not had the continuity that he had last year. And I don't think he's quite reached the level he's been at last year, but I think he's been very, very good indeed. Obviously, the disappointment yesterday was that Lamin-Yama was missing, because if this is anyone's league title, it's probably his, in terms of the quality and the consistency.

7:48And maybe if Lamin is on the pitch, maybe he's one player that doesn't sort of take his foot off the accelerator and keeps going.

7:55Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, or at least that when he gets those sightings of goal, he puts it in the net rather than we've called to our saving them. I thought what we saw, a couple of other things that we saw, I think are very interesting. It's not the story of the season because it's only happened late on, but Gabby is very definitely back in. And we didn't think he would be actually. When he came back from injury, we didn't think he would play as much as he has. And he's played a lot. I guess we saw Marcus Rashford score a brilliant goal. We've talked about this a lot. Fantastic statistics this year. Pretty much the perfect low move.

8:28Phil Kitromilides:and yet still that doubt about whether or not they would pay 30 million plus his salary to keep him. And he was trying not to be drawn into that last night, albeit Ferran Torres was trying to get him to be drawn into it. Say, oh, you can stay, you know, this would be great. And you'll see the, you know, you'll see all these celebrations and you're going to end up staying. I thought obviously Ferran Torres... By the way, I think that was his best game for Barca. I thought he was very, very good indeed. And he's had some, a lot of good games this year. I think if we're honest with ourselves, we still think that Barcelona centre-forward should be a bit better than him, to be honest.

9:01Phil Kitromilides:But his performance level over the season has been largely really quite good. And I think he is a really, really good player, possibly as the guy that kind of covers all of those forward positions. The other player I wanted to pick up on, well, actually there's two more. One was Eric Garcia, who's played everywhere and more minutes than anyone else, well, more games than anyone else, and been really useful across pitch. The other is Gerard Martin. I mean, he was the backup left-back last season. Yeah. And now he's first-choice centre-back. And his first-choice centre-back. And I actually think he's a big part of the reason that Kubarsi is OK.

9:38Phil Kitromilides:Kubarsi, for my liking, Kubarsi still gets caught with the ball over the top of him too often. Doesn't see the runners on his shoulders quite often when that line's high. But I think a lot of the time it's Gerard who's... I wouldn't quite call it cleaning up because he's not this sort of athlete that comes flying around and, you know, makes the challenge and rescues you from having been opened up a little bit. But there's a degree of that, or there's a degree of him seeing things and preventing trouble from happening. I was looking at the Barcelona back four yesterday, and I was thinking, you know, if you told Barcelona fans at the start of the season that, you know, the definitive Clasico, matchday 35, this is the back four that you're going to start that game with.

10:16Eric Garcia at right back, Paul Kubarcy and Gerard Martinez centre-back pairing and xiao cancello at left back yeah it would have been like what eric garcia plays right back for us now gerard martin the substitute left back is our first choice center back where's joe cancello come from he's back at the club like the everybody would have just been incredulous that that is the starting back four for the biggest game of the season certainly domestically um and i guess a lot of that is down to hansy flick isn't it yes and i think i think

10:46Phil Kitromilides:that yesterday was a lot about Flick. Flick's father passed away in the morning and obviously he chose to be there and I think there was a real sense of them kind of supporting him and making this about him. And I think it is his league title in many ways. I think because of the management, exactly what you just said, of finding places for players, finding a commitment for players, I think obviously it's probably enhanced, this idea has probably enhanced and possibly also slightly exaggerated by what's happened at Real Madrid. So his management of addressing him in the way that Real Madrid haven't been able to and his ability to get performances and effort and collectivity out of his players in a way that Real Madrid haven't, I think obviously makes that seem like an even bigger achievement than perhaps it is.

11:35Phil Kitromilides:I think it underlines how difficult it would be. And obviously for me, I think it goes back to what he said, Hansi Flick, after the game against Rayo back in, was it August? I think it's week. week three week three yeah um he goes baby and he he comes out with this line which is that egos kill success and the reason he comes out with that line at that point is because he's worried it might happen because he can see the direction of travel in in the attitude of some of his players and he found a way to prevent that getting out of hand and if you like to realign things um and and to re re-channel uh the attitudes of the players and so on and i think in that sense this is this This is very much his success.

12:14Phil Kitromilides:He's fortunate in the personalities of some of them, but that doesn't mean they're all easy to handle. And I think he's done a fantastic job in that sense. Yeah, as you said, you know, this is Hansi Flick's league title and credit to Joan Laporta for bringing him in, you know. Yes, of course. No, no, definitely. You know, a terrific signing. The best signing of the second Joan Laporta era, without doubt, has been Hansi Flick. And let's see now, you know, I mean, we'll get on to Real Madrid in just a second. but people are talking about potential Barcelona domestic dynasty. I mean, don't get carried away because whenever we start doing this, the other team pulls its act together.

12:53But two league titles, one pretty well, pretty convincingly, and with a certain style of football, which is important to Barcelona as well. I think this season they've been a little bit less spectacular than last season, obviously because of the injuries. Rafinha missed two games last season. Neither of them were for injury. I think Pedri missed one game with Gastro and Turit. It's stomach problems. Now, they weren't injured last season. Both of those key players have missed long stretches of the season through injury. So, yeah, slightly less spectacular. Better defensively. Joan Garcia coming in is obviously a big part of that.

13:32And without doubt, the best team in Spain by some distance.

13:36Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, you're right there. By the way, Joan Garcia, I think, has had a very good season. Very, very good season. Maybe their player of the season? Well, I think Lamine is, but yes, he could be their player. I think Lamine is probably player of the season in Spain, just generally. That's slightly undermined, I suppose, by how much he's missed at the end of the season and by that difficult period with his... What did we describe that people decided... Groin. That Pou Belger is? Yeah, Groin. Sportsman's hernia, I think it's called. Anyway, that meant that he wasn't that great through the autumn. But when Barcelona started to really rack up the results, it's Lamin.

14:14Phil Kitromilides:And Lamin, just the quality and the level of his play, I think is higher than anyone else in Spain this year. There's a couple of other names I've thrown in over the course of the season, but I think he's probably at the top, with the possible exception, if you're looking at it in terms of expectation of Maurici, who's been phenomenal. But you're right with Gio Garcia. I think there have been moments when Barcelona haven't been that impressive, where he's kept them in games that they might not otherwise have been kept in. And, you know, for 25 million euros, it seems like a very, very good bit of business from their point of view.

14:45Yeah, a huge bargain. Oportunidad de mercado. It didn't necessarily feel like we must go out and buy a goalkeeper because they did have Ter Stegen, but it was unmissable bit of business, which they jumped on. Real Madrid, Sid. Real Madrid. I thought they were abysmal yesterday, to be honest. genuinely terrible. Yeah, yeah, no.

15:06Phil Kitromilides:I didn't think they were awful. I just thought they were, I just thought they were kind of tepid, as I say, but a couple of brief moments when they sort of sparked into life. But basically, they looked like a team that knew the title had gone, that knew the other team was better than them and wasn't going to do too much to change that. Well, isn't that awful? Yeah, I suppose so, yeah. That's terrible. They turned up to just play that game. They were like, all right, you've won the league. We're not going to win the league. It is all over. Let's just get this game out of the way. Yeah. whole thing at the camp now.

15:38And I thought it was terrible. And they couldn't play the ball out from the back, Sid. They could not play the ball out from the back. Not once.

15:44Phil Kitromilides:Well, do you notice that the only time they did with any kind of effectiveness was when Asensio did those launches that he does. And a couple of them... That's not playing the ball out from the back. Exactly. They had a lot of ball forward. Yeah, exactly. They tried. A couple of them kind of came off almost by chance. There's one that Koubassi makes a mess of, which is the one that Vinicius has the chance to lob it over over Joan Garcia and doesn't do a particularly great job. And Joan Garcia stands tall and so on. But no, it was, as you say, it was Real Madrid playing out the season because they had to, not because they really thought there was a chance that they might not play out the season.

16:18Phil Kitromilides:You know, they went there knowing that they couldn't prevent Barcelona being title winners and not seemingly that interested in preventing them from being title winners last night. I mean, they were fortunate, I guess, that Barcelona didn't go for the absolute jugular and really try and put a historical defeat past them because it's up there with being Real Madrid's worst week in living memory. Yeah. I mean, it would have been even worse if we were talking about a 6-0 win for Barcelona, which at times it felt it could have been yesterday. But it's still been an absolutely, historically, almost, you know, without precedent, bad end of the season for Real Madrid.

16:59Phil Kitromilides:Yeah. and the end of the season really is, if you like, the final culmination of an all-round season that's bad. You know, and I think this is, we talked about this the other day, so I don't want to labour it too much, but I think it's worth briefly saying that the issue, the fight between Chirmeni and Fede Valverde and everything that's gone with it, is kind of, it's partly a product of the tension of the four results. It's partly a product of, if you like, the mental state they're in because they haven't won anything, but it's also partly a cause of them not winning anything. And this is a team that's had a divided dressing room all the way through the nature of the culture.

17:42Phil Kitromilides:Essentially, Barcelona's, sorry, Ramirez's collapse or crisis is a cultural crisis. And it's a crisis about mechanics. It's a crisis about work ethic. It's a crisis about the ethos, the culture, the way you go about things. And in that sense, it is. And it would be a bit simplistic to just kind of point at the top. But in a way, you have to, because it's the way that the club expresses itself and goes about things. Now, that's not to say this is a disaster and everything has to be torn up. Although right now it must feel like that for a lot of us. I've done it again. A lot of Real Madrid fans.

18:18Phil Kitromilides:Because obviously, you know, it's only a couple of years ago that this team won the European Cup. And Aboulard made that point. He said 17 of these players were European Cup winners two years ago. And that is true. But of course, the risk is that then you start saying, well, what happened two years ago? And of course, and it's, you know, there's a symbolism there. There's a reality there. There's a bit of both there. You go, well, Mbappe came. Now, it's far too simplistic to say this guy ruined everything. But I also think it's far too simplistic to just dismiss that as part of the explanation of what's happened to Real Madrid.

18:52It's a cause. It is one of the causes.

18:55Phil Kitromilides:It is part of the shift in dynamics, the shift in culture at the club, the way that the dressing room responds to things, the approach to also how you play. We've talked a lot this year about the numbers of pressing, who runs the least, and he's at the top of the list, partly with Vinicius. Although I think actually one of the things that's happened in the narrative, the discourse in recent weeks, is there has been a feeling, well, at least Vinicius turns up. And at least Vinicius breaks his balls for the team. Yes, he's all the things that Vinicius is. And yeah, maybe for the team is the wrong part of that phrase, but at least he puts the effort in.

19:35There was a furious online reaction, and we're not all about discussing furious online reactions on this podcast, but Mbappé, during the game, put a story on Instagram. Did you see this?

19:49Phil Kitromilides:Saying, a la Madrid or whatever, with a little white heart. when they're already 2-0 down. They're 2-0 down. Surely you do that at kick-off, don't you? Yeah. And then you celebrate if they win. Yes. It's just another... I mean, you know, it's a stupid and ridiculous thing for us to be discussing, but I guess it just points to the fact that he is being consistently, like, poorly advised on these kind of things, and that is not helping. And I'm telling you guys, Thursday night at the Bernabeu, Real Madrid against Oviedo, it is going to be generationally toxic inside that stadium. There is already a movement to whistle and boo specifically for Kylian Mbappé in the 10th minute to make the furious anger felt directly towards him in the 10th minute.