Giving Sid ideas

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1:46Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the Spanish Football Podcast. I'm Phil Kitcher-Milides. I'm with Sid Lowe. Hello, Sidney. Good morning, Philip. You all right? Yeah, I'm just... There's sort of a lot has happened, but nothing's really happened. I'm in that Monday morning state where I don't really know what to do. Or just sit here and talk about Spanish football with me. There is that. And then hopefully that will help me, you know, that will give me ideas. Sidney doesn't know what to write for his column today. So let's see if speaking about Spanish football for the next half an hour or so can clarify some things for him.

2:17This is what happened on Matchday 12, the Friday night game. So Elche and Real Sociedad play out a 1-1 draw. Then on Saturday, Girona got a really, really needed win at home to Alaves. They beat them 1-0. Sevilla beating Osasuna by the same scoreline. Osasuna still really terrible away form and looking pretty bad under Alessio Dici this season. Atletico Madrid beating Levante by three goals to one. Antoine Griezmann coming off the bench and scoring twice. in that victory. And Villarreal winning away 2-0 at Espanyol. Gerard Moreno scoring against his former club for the first time. Then on Sunday, Nico Williams scored an absolute golazo.

2:58Terrific goal. If you haven't seen it, go and see it as Athletic Club beat Oviedo 1-0. Rayo Vallecano and Real Madrid playing out a goalless draw. The first ever goalless draw between these two sides at Vallecas. Valencia and Real Betis finished 1-1 at Mestalla. where Mallorca needed a win and they got it, 1-0 at home to Getafe, had Barcelona, went to Vigo and beat Celta 4-2 in a pretty crazy game on Sunday night. More on that in just a second. Now, have you joined us over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP yet? You really should. Patrons get the Monday pod and the preview pod advert free, plus they get a Q &A pod and a bonus pod every week.

3:40and there's the newsletter every single week for everyone. The Discord, the TSFP Diary. Membership starts from just€4.75 a month, which is very, very little when you think about it. So come and join us. TSFPs at patreon.com forward slash TSFP. Talking points. Part one, Sydney. We will start at Balaidos, where Shelter and Barca played out a typically entertaining game. Robert Lewandowski scoring a hat-trick for Barca, his first hat-trick in over a year. There were two assists for Marcus Rashford as well, who is now the leading assist provider in La Liga with seven. What did you make of this game?

4:22Do you know what? The best thing that happened for Barcelona was that in the second half, not very much happened. I thought that was in a way, for me, the analysis of this. The first off was wild. It was very, very open. and Celta seemed to find ways of going through Barcelona really quite easily. Even though, I mean, it's difficult this, because I suppose this feeds into everything that we talk about with Barcelona. But actually, if you look at the shot count, even at halftime, Barcelona were racking up far more opportunities than Celta. But Celta's were really clear. It was 3-2 to Barca at halftime, by the way, if you didn't see it.

4:54It was 3-2 to Barcelona at halftime. And I think at that point, it was something like 17-4 in shots. And yet Celta were going through that line because Barcelona weren't getting the timing of it right. They weren't getting the pressure right. All of those things that we've talked about lots and lots of times. The game was really wild, really wet, pouring down with rain, really open and loads of fun. And in the second half, I thought what was interesting about it was that Barcelona continued to press very, very high. But they did it through controlling. They didn't allow Celta to turn and play a pass.

5:23They didn't allow Celta out from deeper positions. They didn't allow them to ever break through them. And the second half, I thought, was a really, really quite impressive performance in terms of controlling the game, in terms of shifting. A game that's so wild to then become so different in the second half. And I thought what we saw was two, how do I put this? I was going to say two very good performances from Barcelona because the first half wasn't good, but it sort of was at the same time, if you see what I mean. They made a lot happen, but at the other end, those same recurring issues. and in the second half, as I say, what was most interesting to me was how they managed to fix those particular issues and to actually apply some control, which really and truly hadn't been there in the first half.

6:04I mean, obviously, it was less fun. The first half was really, really enjoyable. I mean, it was considerably less fun from a neutral perspective. I think Barcelona fans would probably have quite enjoyed seeing their side control again. Once they got the fourth in the second half, things really did kind of calm down. I mean, shall we talk a little bit about individuals in this game? Yes, OK. And Bobby Lewandowski getting a, I was going to say, a much-needed hat-trick. It feels like, you know, it's come at a good time for him, with him not necessarily being first choice this season. Yeah, and it's the first start since, I think, the Sevilla game when they got battered, and he wasn't fully fit then.

6:46After the game, Flick was talking about how, you know, he's come back from injury different. He looks positive. He looks more kind of in tune with things. I think it's good for Barcelona that they felt that they could wait before starting him, that they weren't throwing him straight back in before he was fully ready. I think, and we've discussed this before, but I think that for all the doubts about Lewandowski, and I think those doubts are entirely legitimate, by the way. I'm not going to fall into the trap of him scoring a hat-trick yesterday. And I was reading it this morning in one of the Catland papers.

7:16One of these classic pieces says, don't ever retire. Well, you know, and in a couple of weeks' time when he's terrible, you'll say, oh God, who is this guy? Can we please have another number nine? But I do think that Lewandowski does things that Ferran Torres just doesn't. And there have been times when I myself have looked at the important, look how well Ferran Torres moves, look at what he does for the team, look at his positional ability to come in from the side, to create chances and to not always take them because Fran Torres' finishing is quite up and down. But I think Lewandowski gives you things, even in a game like this, where actually if you look at the statistics, he didn't give them very much.

7:55In that first half, I put them in front of me. I think he only touched the ball 12 times. Right. But he scores goals. I think he does that thing, that Spanish thing, the Spanish phrase, which I'm not quite sure what you call it in English, of fixing the centre-backs, kind of putting them in a position which allows the two wide men to maybe have a little bit more space, which clears that space around the front of the penalty area as well. He also finishes very well. So what Littley gets, he gets those. And the other thing that I don't think gets talked about enough, we've done it, but I feel like not many people do actually.

8:27And I'm not entirely sure why. It's that ability that Lewandowski has to come and receive the ball and by doing that, bring the two central defenders with him. And that opens the space behind. Now, the biggest beneficiary of that last year was Rafinha and he's not available. So maybe we're seeing that less. But I think he's important from that point of view. and I thought he, well, it's obvious to say this, that he had a very good game when they win 3-0, but I think it's a little bit more than that. I think it's what it does for the players around him as well. They won 4-2, not 3-0, but he's...

8:55Sorry, yeah, yeah, sorry. Lamine, what do we think of Lamine? He's scored. What do we think of Lamine? I think we saw... I'd like to know, actually, if Claudio Khinadeliev had conceptualised it in these terms. I think we saw Celta double-team him. I think we saw them put two men on him all the time. I think that did open space for others. And we're talking about Lewandowski fixing the central defenders. Lamine fixed kind of both sides of the left side of the pitch. Celta, obviously, they play with five at the back, although it's sort of three plus two, really. And normally the two wing-backs get up and down a lot more.

9:27On this occasion, I thought they got up and down a lot less, partly because they were looking at Lamine. I thought he had a lot of the ball. It's very interesting, actually, that I think after Frenkie de Jong, I think he had more of the ball than anyone else. He wasn't always able to escape, but I think he becomes a, focal point of a lot of what they do. And without it being an outstanding game for him, I thought it was a very good one. Yes, I would go along with that as well. I mean, he's still in the build-up to this. You know, Hansi Flick said he's still not 100%. Don't get carried away with what you saw in Bruges because he's still not 100%.

10:03I don't know if we're reading something into that with him going away on spaying duty. Well, I mean, just to the manager. Just a slight tangent, but not a huge one. You go to the Athletic Club game and Nico Williams scores a brilliant goal and he's suffering from the same injury that Laminio Males. And post-game, Ernesto Valverde said, you know, he was good today. It doesn't always show, but certainly it's a risk playing him two games in a row. And I felt that, exactly what you were saying about Laminio, I thought that was a message to the national team. It's like, listen, don't you dare play him in both of these games.

10:37Please don't play him in both of these games. And I think Barcelona feel that way. Now, look, Spain could qualify in the first game. And I think that's so there's a good chance that, you know, then you can leave players out of the second game. I think Laminya Mahler, and actually it is true that the injury that he's got, it's one of those where it's not a kind of a continuous line. So it's not an improvement over time. And after a week, you're this much better. And after 10 days, this much better. And after two weeks, it's much better. And after three or four weeks or whatever it may be, you can forget it.

11:04It's one of those that comes and goes. it's one of those that needs i suppose one way of putting it is it's an injury that needs management rather than one that gets cured if you see what i mean nico williams isn't in the spain squad is he well anesto valverde i i haven't looked at space but unless of alverde he said he's not well he actually said he's about to go with him that is quite bizarre is he yeah oh well he wasn't initially unless he's been called up and uh to replace someone who's dropped out or unless Valverde is wrong. I mean, it's perfectly plausible that he's wrong. I'm looking for the quote now because...

11:39Anyway. We digress. Marcus Rashford, we've spoken about him previously on the podcast. We'll obviously have to speak about him again because I think he actually played pretty well in this game. Maybe his best performance for Barcelona with those two assists and constantly looking dangerous. He was involved in Laminia Mael's goal as well. It wasn't an assist, but it was his ball into the box which was partially cleared into Lamin's path. Is there still this feeling that his numbers are good, but his actual involvement in matches isn't as impressive as the numbers suggest? Or is that just a ridiculous notion?

12:15Because, hey, if he's providing assists and scoring some goals, then what more do you want him to do? Yeah. And there was a feeling that this would be his last start because Rafinha will be back. Well, not his last start. Obviously, look, he will play again. But But what I mean is that he won't be an actual starter once Rafinha is back. And for all it's worth, I think that's understandable because I think they've missed Rafinha. And I think Rafinha is massively important. And there is a contradiction in there. I would largely share that analysis. And in fact, we've talked about that analysis ourselves.

12:44This idea that, you know, it's not always great, but, you know, numerically, you cannot argue with it. The thing that's made me and this shouldn't make me change my mind, but I'm going to admit that it has. The thing that's made me not change my mind, but maybe change the balance of where I put this is reading everybody's sort of determination to do him down. I'm going through the Catalan papers this morning and reading almost every one of the guys. Oh, you know, Rashford, who really winds you up sometimes because he's doing nothing, provided three assists. Now, as you've said, it's actually statistically two, but it's kind of a hat-trick of assists.

13:19And I was like, what do you want from the guy? And so, you know, at the risk of sort of defending someone because of some perceived slight, which really isn't a slight, it's just an analysis. But the repetitiveness of that analysis, and I think that you posed the question is quite right, because I think everyone is asking that. Everyone is looking at Rashford and thinking, I don't know if he's good, but Christ alive, those numbers. I mean, those numbers are good. They are absolutely brilliant. Right. They are absolutely brilliant numbers. And, you know, this is a guy that you got him on loan. You didn't pay anything for him.

13:52Actually, I don't know if there was a loan fee. I must confess, I don't know that. Now, I suppose part of it is hung on the fact that you've got a€30 million purchase clause. Which doesn't seem a lot. Doesn't seem a lot from a Premier League point of view. Now, this maybe is the big, big question. At the heart of everything we're talking about, maybe what's really the crux of this issue is €30 million doesn't seem a lot, if you're looking at it from Manchester United's point of view. €30 million for Barcelona actually does feel like quite a lot. One of the reasons they went for Rashford, and this feels like a dismissive thing to say, and perhaps it shouldn't, but it's true, is that they couldn't get Nico and that they couldn't get Luis Diaz.

14:30Now, that's not necessarily to say Rashford is third choice, but actually Rashford was third choice. But he's partly third choice because he's very cheap, because he's useful all across the front line, because in truth, it is true, Barca have been looking at him for a while. Barca have liked the idea of Sarai. In fact, Rashford himself said, this isn't the first time I could have gone there. And so this doesn't mean that he's rubbish, but it does mean that this was a solution to a problem they couldn't quite fix with the players they really wanted to fix. Now, let's say this, by the way, it might not have worked with the other two players.

15:02Who knows? And so I do think that when you come into this and you think, well, 30 million, well, of course you sign him. With Barcelona's financial situation and with the potential for them to, how do we put this, in the summer, to be looking higher. You know, if they are financially better off, I think their ambitions might be higher than Rashford. And so actually, despite everything, you should look at the numbers and say, well, absolutely you sign him. I don't think the answer is absolutely you sign him at all. All right, well, we'll see how he gets on. And he's played more minutes than we thought he was going to play already with the injuries to Rafinha and Lamine and Daniel Moune.

15:37More than any of the others. I was looking at this for this weekend's game. He played over a thousand minutes across all conditions going into this weekend's game, which is more than any of the other forwards. Yeah, it's quite a lot, isn't it? Quick word on Celta Vigo, the only team in the division yet to keep a clean sheet. They should be all right, shouldn't they? Yeah, I mean, yes. But, you know, I suppose if you keep on... Yeah, I mean, it depends what you mean by right. Look, it's saying, will they get dragged into a relegation... Not getting relegated. No, they're not going to get dragged into a relegation battle.

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17:35And Messi only trusts Duracell. so good so good so good new summer arrivals are at nordstrom rack stores now get ready to save big with up to 60 off brands like rag and bone levi's adidas and free people join the nordy club to unlock exclusive discounts shop new arrivals first and more plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free great brands great prices that's why you rack OK, let's talk about Rio 0, Real Madrid 0. There was already a really massive overreaction to the defeat at Anfield from the Madrid press. I was reading a piece in Ask building up to this game saying that there were a sea of doubts created and everything being questioned, not just the style of play, but Xabi Alonso's man management, etc, etc.

18:32etc. Today in ASS there is a piece from a very well-connected journalist who's now very high up in ASS and when he writes something it is coming almost directly from the upper echelons of the Bernabéu and the headline is that there is a worry for the unexpected drop-off in form from Real Madrid and you know you can go and read it if you want if you read Spanish or maybe it's translated into English. But here's a line. It's not, they're not that worried about the play and the results, but that in the dressing room, they don't fully understand what Xabi Alonso wants in certain moments. Back-to-back defeats here, back-to-back failing, no, not back-to-back defeats, back-to-back failing to score against Liverpool and Rayo Vallecano, two poor results, two poor performances, and already we're getting this with Real Madrid, you know, clear at the top of the table.

19:38Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be a smart arse about it, but I was sort of thinking last night that we've reached the release the hounds moment far quicker than I thought we would. Yeah, I mean, I thought, you know, obviously, look, Anfield was disappointed, but I think it's a place where you can be beaten. That said, it was the nature of it. was the fact that they overrun by a Liverpool team. And you tell me, Phil, you're watching far more Premier League football than I am. That isn't really very convincing this season, but against Real Madrid were. Against Real, they didn't play well. They didn't really create chances.

20:11I think Real are a difficult team to play. Bear in mind, Madrid haven't won there now. They did create chances. They created two very good chances in the first half. Madrid? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Two very good. The Asensio header and... And the Vinicius spin and shot. Oh, the Vinicius spin and shot. That's how they saved. Yeah, that's right. But they didn't create very much. I mean, over 90 minutes, it's not a huge amount. There's an Mbappe shot that flies quite a long way wide. And there's that dribble right at the very end. Yeah. Vardegula when he gets quite close to goal, but then gets blocked just as he's coming in and about to get the shot.

20:41But not very much else. I think, you know, they haven't won there in four visits to Vallecas. The last time that Barcelona went to finish 1-1 and Barcelona were... Sorry, 1-1 or 2-2? 1-1. 1-1. And Barcelona were fortunate, I thought. Barcelona haven't won there in three seasons either. Yeah. And then the last time Atletico Madrid went, it was 1-1, and they also struggled. So this is a place where it is going to be difficult to go, where Real don't allow you to play your way, where they create an intensity, which in theory shouldn't actually be enormously problematic for Real Madrid. Although I do think that Xabi Alonso is trying to turn them into a slightly different team.

21:13And maybe that's part of it. Maybe that's part of the players saying, well, you know, we were so good running into space. We were so good into that. So why are we trying to be this kind of controlling side? I also think they don't actually have, we've talked about this a lot, the absence of a number five, that position, that player that makes them play. They haven't been sparkling all season, but they've been well organised. And maybe actually that's part of it. Maybe that there is this sense amongst some of the players of, you know, it was, when it's wild and it's open, things happen. And when things happen, Madrid have the players for it.

21:44I also, but you know, the bottom line is you said it yourself there, right? This is two games, two games. And everyone's losing. Although it is true that But there aren't very many performances this year where you feel, oh, they were brilliant. At this stage of the season, last year, Real Madrid were six points behind Barcelona in second place. They're currently three points clear of them at the top of the table, just for a little bit of context comparing to last year. Yes, as you mentioned, it's a fourth consecutive year that Real Madrid have failed to pick up a victory in Vallecas. One of the papers referred to trips to Vallecas as not a headache for Xabi Alonso's predecessor, Carlo Ancelotti, but as a migraine for him with those three consecutive matches that he never managed to win.

22:32Zinedine Zidane lost there as well in 2019. This is a place where Real Madrid have often struggled and so proved the case. I'm just looking at some of the stats, Sid, and I was suggesting that Real Madrid did create chances. They created one opt-to-defined big chance. Which is presumably the Vinicius one, or do you think it's the Ascensio one? Which of those two are they defining as big? Which are they defining as big? Good question. I'm not sure. Ascensio. Possibly. Ascensio, Al says. Ascensio. They had five shots on target. They had fewer expected goals than Rayo in this game as well. So it wasn't a brilliant performance.

23:14Any individuals you want to talk about? Because it doesn't necessarily feel like it's a, I don't know, this felt more like a collective problem rather than an individual problem. Yeah, it felt collectively like it was a bit flat, collectively like they weren't getting to the ball that quickly, that Rayo tends to get there before them, that the use of the ball, the moving of the ball around the pitch was done a little bit, it was a bit plodding. And actually the few moments when it accelerated tended to be when it went out to Vinicius. But actually, if you look at Vinicius, I know this is the nature of a winger, but I think he tried to take his man on, I was looking at the stats earlier, I think it was 10 times and only succeeded, I think three, maybe four.

23:52Now, actually, that's quite a lot, I suppose you could argue, because you only need to do it a couple of times and maybe you'll win the game. And I suppose this takes us back to Marcus Rashford. Two or three good balls into the box, There's your free assists or your two and a bit assists and your job is done. But I do think that Madrid, it was kind of, yeah, it was kind of, I suppose it's a bit, I mean, this maybe is one reason why you can analyse this and sort of say that things aren't great. Because in some ways it wasn't enormously different from what we've seen quite a lot of this year. And it was sort of semi-well organised.