Kicking over an iPad

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0:55Phil Kitromilides:fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

1:40Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of TSFP. I'm Phil Kittremelidis, He's host of the Spanish Football Podcast and joined as ever by Mr Sidlow, who as ever is very tired. He's also joining us from a hotel lobby somewhere in Valencia, which is where he's been able to squeeze in a bit of podding with his favourite Hellenic chum.

1:59Phil Kitromilides:Hello, Sidney. Hello. And I may or may not have just accidentally cut us off by putting the airplane mode on my phone and forgetting that I was running all the internet off it. So it immediately cuts off. So apologies for that. I am back now. Yes. OK. The listeners don't know that. This is take two. We've deleted that. I know, but they like a little bit behind the scenes, don't they? Everyone loves a bit of that. BTS. Sid is tired and making technical errors, as per usual. He's been at a couple of games this weekend, so there's plenty for us to talk about. This is what happened on Match Day 3 on Friday.

2:36Elche continued their strong start to the season, beating Levante 2-0, while Valencia ended Getafe's 100 % record. Sid was at Mestalla to see Los Che win by three goals to nil. Then on Saturday, the worst ever start to a season for Atletico Madrid under Diego Simeone continued. They could only manage a 1-1 draw at the Estadio Mendezza against Alaves. Oviedo got their first win in the top flight for a quarter of a century, beating Real Sociedad at home by a goal to nil. Lovely goal it was too, scored by Leander Dendonca and made by Jaysem Hassan. Sevilla got a much-needed win against lowly Girona, who are looking in all sorts of trouble.

3:16Sevilla winning by two goals to nil. And Real Madrid beat Mallorca 2-1 at the Bernabeu in a game which had a bit of controversy to it, not least because Real Madrid had three goals ruled out. Was there any controversy in it? Were they three correct decisions? More on that in just a moment. Sunday saw Celta Vigo score in the 94th minute. Borja Iglesias popping up to deny Villarreal a third consecutive victory. It finished 1-1 at Balaidos. Athletic Club, big win for them away at Betis, winning by two goals to one. And Espanyol continued their superb start to the season, beating Osasuna 1-0. The final game of match day three was a magnificent contest between Rayo Vallecano and Barcelona, which finished 1-1 at the Estadio de Vallecas.

4:01Now, it's shaping up to be quite a season in La Liga. Make sure you don't miss a thing. Come and join us over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP. Thousands of you already have. Patrons get the Monday and Friday pods without any adverts, the Q &A pod and the bonus pod every week. Plus, there's the newsletter. There's access to the Discord, access to the WhatsApp community. A certain level of patronship gets you access to the diary, to our Zoom calls as well. Membership starts at just€4.75 a month, just over a euro a week for all that lovely content around La Liga. Come and join us. Now, Sid, you were at Vallecas last night to see Raya 1, Barca 1.

4:40I'm really not sure where to start with this one because so much happened. Where do we start? The pitch, the VAR, Juan Garcia, Raya being amazing.

4:51Phil Kitromilides:Where do you want to start? I think we can wrap all of those things in. And this is kind of what I've been trying to get my head around today i think we can wrap all these things in as being this being a very very raya via canada kind of night a night that starts with protests that has all sorts of things go wrong and somehow ends up being really good for it that ends up being fun and exciting and chaotic and wild which is the way that this rioting play that feels like it fits the identity of not so much the club because obviously institutionally the club's in a mess the identity if you like of the fans and the players and and this is a team that that didn't do what teams normally do when they get results against Barcelona, which is obviously to park the bus and to try and go long and try and go into the space behind them.

5:31Phil Kitromilides:Now, they did do a lot of that, but they did it really relentlessly, very much on the front foot, trying to press Barcelona, trying to make life difficult for them, and really deserved the draw. In fact, deserved a lot more than the draw. As you said, part of the reason for it is that Joanne Garcia had a brilliant game, made a couple of extraordinary saves. I think, actually, in fairness, his best save, it was probably offside anyway, the very best of all of them, one where he moved just incredibly quickly. The very best of them was the first one against Andre Ratio in the first half. There's another one in the second half that's even better, I thought, in terms of how quickly he moved and how far he moved.

6:04Phil Kitromilides:And I think that one might be offside. He goes, I'm trying to picture it, he's going to his left, I think. Anyway, he made brilliant saves. He was absolutely fantastic. There were lots. And then, of course, as you say, they're a goal down because of a penalty, which VAR wasn't there to overturn. I don't know if VAR would have overturned it. because while I think the decision is wrong and while the referee admitted at half-time that the decision is wrong, I don't know if it's sufficiently wrong for VAR to have overturned it in the sense that I don't know this year, they're talking about a light touch on the VAR, they might have left it alone.

6:35Phil Kitromilides:I honestly don't know that. But anyway, the point is there was no VAR, which kind of adds that sense of chaos, adds that sense of this being a bit of a shambles. I can't remember who it was yesterday. It might have been Inigo Perez saying post-game, this doesn't look good for La Liga. A league, this shouldn't be happening. Inigo Perez was so angry when he found out he said for a moment I'm taking the players off the pitch we're walking that's how angry he was it was heat of the moment stuff it was he kicked over the little iPad that they have in front of the bench and he said right that's it we're going and then he said after the game I really love listening to Inigo Perez he's so reasonable about everything sometimes you'd like him to be a little bit less reasonable and so of course he has this moment when he loses his head during the game and he says post game I lost my head and I'm ashamed of myself.

7:20Phil Kitromilides:He said, I'm ashamed of myself because the referees have a really hard job. I don't want to have a go at them. He said, but the thing that upset me wasn't so much that there was no VAR, as that there was no protocol for deciding what to do when there's no VAR. He said, because we were told at the start of the game, there's no VAR and they're trying to fix it. And he said, you can't have a situation where there's no VAR, then it comes back for a bit, then it goes again a bit, and then it comes back for a bit, and then it's gone again. And he said, that is the thing because it conditions the way players play.

7:44Phil Kitromilides:And I think he's right, by the way. it conditions the way the referee's referee as well in terms of how quickly for example a linesman puts his flag up in terms of how where exactly the referee puts the bar for fouls and so on um i personally think referees are more keen to give fouls than they used to be because they think well if i get it really wrong the bar will correct it anyway um and so that's why he was so angry i also loved i thought this got overlooked but i think the best phrase or the most telling phrase he said because when he's talking about this and the problems he says oh which is how would you say that in English, like, look out, you know, look out, be careful, you know, let's not forget something.

8:18He said, oh, it could be that the technical fault was Rios.

8:23Phil Kitromilides:He said, and it wouldn't surprise me, which I thought sums it up amazingly. Yes. Which middling Premier League side do you think Inigo Pedas will go to in a couple of years' time and take into Europe? Well, do you think the process is that Andoni Adalo goes to a big crowd and he takes Bournemouth, I suppose that's quite lightly i mean he he said something else that i thought was very interesting post-game he was talking about half time and of course the penalty was pretty close to half time he said so i went off at half time and i was furious and then i realized in myself that i didn't need to pass that fury onto the players i didn't need to go on about what happened and i actually needed to calm myself down he said i'm really lucky because when i talk i can see the listening because they're looking at me in the eye and what what he did and what they all did was come out in the second half having already had a very good first half and have what i thought was a phenomenal second half I thought they took Barcelona to pieces.

9:16Phil Kitromilides:And I thought they were, which is kind of why I'm writing about them today, because in a way, it doesn't matter that they didn't win. It was that this was a very Rio Vallecano kind of night, playing a very Rio Vallecano kind of way. And what was supposed to be a night when the fans had refused to kind of support the team, they said, you know, we're going to go on strike. They ended up making loads of noise because they were enjoying themselves too much to stop. Yes, I mean, a lot of that noise was protest against the president of Alain Fischer. There is that. who they are just absolutely despairing of the way that he has run the club almost into the ground and the fact that they are triumphing on the pitch is in spite of what's happened.

9:52It's a minor miracle. Yes, it is. Let's talk about Barca, Sid, in this game because, listen, they did have some clear chances and Dani Olmo has an unbelievably good chance to make it 2-0 right at the stroke of half-time and he scores that. It's a very, very different game. He had a chance at the start of the second half as well. in the first half rafinha has a good chance and then he has a chance to play ferran in and he does it doesn't la mean forces batalla into a decent save but those chances are sort of the first 50 minutes and then they were kind of switched off for the rest of the game i i think this is the second half performance was i don't know if it was worrying but the amount of times that rio got in and behind them with like like tremendous ease that that would be concerning i would say yeah

10:37Phil Kitromilides:there was uh i think it was uh it might have been it might have been issy now i can't remember which one it was said that indigo had called it the flick line and so they've been very very conscious of how high barcelona play which suits rio because while that makes it sound a little bit like you're playing deeper than you're going over them it's the opposite of ryes everyone's going forward bombing people into space really really aggressive very much in your face not sitting and waiting and going for you and barcelona didn't know how to deal with it um and obviously there's some extenuating circumstances.

11:06Phil Kitromilides:We can talk about the quality of the pitch, but I'm not actually sure that's really the reason. I don't think that helps Rio either. I think there's a tendency when we look at a poor surface to assume it's all about one team. It's not. It's about both. Admittedly, certain teams are affected by it more than others. But I thought Barcelona didn't really have a response. I thought in the last 20 minutes, there were moments when Frankie de Jong started to get a little bit of the ball and I wondered if he might find a way through, but it really, really didn't happen and you know what for me the most interesting thing is flick post game talking about egos and talking about collective spirit and and very clearly i think laying there that he thinks he's got a problem in his squad um and i was very very struck by that because while we haven't seen amazing performances from them so far this season we saw pretty good pre-season obviously they won the first two games i didn't i don't know about you but i didn't have a sense that this was kind of, how would I put this, in group terms, something that was going wrong at all.

12:04Phil Kitromilides:And it's Flick that's offered that up now. It's Flick that's opened us to that possibility. Flick starting with Paul Kubasi and Andres Christensen on the bench. No, sorry. Starting with Paul Kubasi and Anato on the bench. And we had Christensen and Eric Garcia, the starting centre-back pairing, which was quite eye-catching. I mean, I know he likes Eric Garcia and he's used him quite a lot. And I think he feels like he's got a role in this team. But I just felt like, were they being punished for previous performances? Was he trying things out? Why play those two in this game? I think there's a couple of things.

12:43Phil Kitromilides:I think one of them is that he's very conscious of the rotation. Obviously, it's a bit early to be laying everything on that. Smash day three. Exactly, exactly. But I think particularly with Jules Koundé, and I think we saw that in him being a sub the first couple of weeks, I think that was partly a message, but I think it was also partly about knowing that Koundé played too much last year, or at least, you know, that he was pushed to the limit. I think it's also about him not being at all sure what his best centre-back partnership is in terms of timing that back line right. And I don't want to go on and on and on about the same thing, but the absence of Inigo Martínez is really important.

13:13Phil Kitromilides:And so I think he's trying to find the defenders, not necessarily who are individually the better defenders, but who can read that part of it better. There was a moment yesterday, I was sitting pitch side, just to the right of the Barcelona bench. And there was a moment when the line was directly in front of me. It was really interesting to see it move, actually, as a kind of really, really perfect line. And Fick was there calling them. And obviously, you know, that takes coordination and it takes a lot of communication. And it's not that easy to do. And I think with Inigo Martinez, you had someone who led them through it.

13:46Phil Kitromilides:I think with Ronald Adelho, you have someone who trusts his own recovery speed and so doesn't maybe do it quite as well. Maybe it's not deliberately, it's just that it's just kind of not naturally in his thinking. I think Koubasi follows others and is important for them. But I think he's looking at Andres Kristensen and Eric Garcia and thinking, are these guys that can understand the mechanics rather than necessarily be the best defenders, if you see what I mean? That absolutely felt like what we should be reading into this. We should move on, but if you have any questions about what happened in that game, send them to us and we will answer them on the Q &A pod tomorrow.

14:22That game at the Bernabeu side between Real Madrid and Mallorca. I don't necessarily want to dwell too much on the supposed controversy because I don't think there was anything too controversial about it. There were two offsides and one handball, which was, OK, perhaps a little bit interpretive in terms of what is immediate or not. But it hit Ardegula's hand. The goalkeeper made a save. it fell out to him and he immediately scored in the rebound so i don't think it was crazy

14:46Phil Kitromilides:that it was ruled out um yeah not do i not do i and actually and actually i i quite like the way that um many dealt with it post game i do think it's probably the wrong decision and certainly referees i've spoken to have said that they think it's the wrong decision because it should be the immediate touch you immediately score the fact that it comes back off the goalkeeper but my argument with that is yeah but it only comes back off one second later you've been allowed to take it but exactly one second later and because you've been allowed to take advantage of the controller with your arm, which is accidental.

15:13Phil Kitromilides:Now there's another question, which is whether that rule should even exist. But anyway, that's David Ellery sinkering with things again. I just like Chirmeni post-game because he was kind of very calm about it. He said, look, when the referees came to speak to us earlier in the season, they said if the guy who does the handball then scores, it's ruled out. He didn't use the word immediate. So I suppose in that interpretation of it, it's right. Now, it's possible, of course, that Chirmeni misunderstood or has read it differently, but I just like the fact that he wasn't ranting about it. And I agree with you.

15:40Phil Kitromilides:I didn't think it was particularly outrageous, any of the decisions, really. From this game, I want to talk a little bit about Rodrigo, Sid, for Real Madrid, because we're here on transfer deadline day. He's not going anywhere. He's been linked with every big team in Europe. Remember, at the start of the summer, Liverpool wanted him, Manchester City, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham. There were loads of suggestions that he would be going and there were no offers, no offers for Rodrigo. So it looks like he's staying. And I think we maybe misinterpreted or didn't really understand how Xavi Alonso wants to use him because we all thought and we interpreted, oh, well, you know, he hasn't started any of the first couple of games, didn't start apart from the first game at the Club World Cup.

16:23Mastantono is ahead of him. Brahim Diaz is ahead of him. Gonzalo Garcia is ahead of him in the pecking order. But no, who's ahead of him in the pecking order? Vinicius, because Rodrigo is going to play on the left in this team, right? Because he started the previous game against Oviedo. He started on the left and then was replaced by Vinicius. And in this game, he replaced Vinicius on the left. So he's going to stay. He's going to play in his favoured position. The only problem is that he's going to get a lot less minutes than he would like in a World Cup year because his compatriot, Vinicius, is ahead of him.

16:53Is that a fair analysis of what's going on here?

16:56Phil Kitromilides:I think that's a very fair analysis. I'd just like to add one little dimension to it, which is I think that Xavi Alonso is clearer now than he was six weeks ago that Mbappé can play through the middle. So when we talk about that left-sided position, and we've talked a lot, haven't we, about trying to fit the spaces for Mbappé and Vinicius to both play and the extent to which they kind of tread on each other's toes. And I think if Xavi Alonso had decided that he wasn't convinced that Mbappé could be right through the middle and that he wanted someone like Gonzalo or a reference point and Mbappe plays off him to the left, then he has a problem because then he has three players for that position and three really, really good ones.

17:31Phil Kitromilides:And then at that point, maybe he's a bit more keen to say, OK, we need to find a solution for Rodrigo and push him out. Well, not push him out, but encourage him to take another deal. And I think the fact that Mbappe is now not part of that equation helps. And so you can say to Rodrigo, look, Vinicius is probably first choice, but you're going to get a lot of minutes this year and you're going to get them on the left. And the other tiny bit to add to what you were saying, And the other dimension in this is that Rodrigo himself wants to play on the left, not on the right. So even if it means being second fiddle to Vinicius, it's the position he wants to play in.

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19:37A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in.

19:42Phil Kitromilides:They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com. Okay, let's discuss a historically bad start to the season for Atletico Madrid. They were held at the Estadio Mendes de Roza. So they took the lead early on with Simeone, son of Diego, scoring a goal that shouldn't have been allowed. He was in an offside position.

20:20It wasn't picked up by the VAR and there was controversy there, but he scored. And then they almost immediately conceded, Sorlach giving away a penalty. It was dispatched and Alaves picked up a point in a game which they've consistently had the best of Atletico Madrid. we were talking about it on the preview pod that Atleti hadn't won there I think in in four years they consistently struggle when they go to Mendy for Rafa and so what happened Sid what happened in this game where Atletico Madrid again started pretty well again scored the first goal as they have done in each of the three matches and again just faded yeah um I think it's slightly different

21:01Phil Kitromilides:to Espanyol uh I think it's a little bit different to Elche but more similar I think this is the worst of three by some way i think this is a team that just didn't play well at all and sime only talking post game about that lovely word that we can never properly translate contundencia being decisive you know that when you land the blow it lands you know when you defend you get rid of it you don't mess around it's that i suppose it's the no pissing about of football isn't it it's you know you get a chance it goes in the net you have to defend it gets out the area and and and he was saying that wasn't happening now i think there's a couple of problems i have of that um i think first problem is that it totally takes out of the equation how you've played and they played badly because what it does is it puts the flaws at one each one end of the pitch and the other end of the pitch the other thing i think it does is i think it points upwards for the blame and it points downwards to blame because when it's contundentia you can either be pointing upwards because you're saying well i haven't got the defenders who have who naturally have that or i haven't got the forwards who naturally have that or you're pointing down and saying those dickheads missed it it's a way i think it's a way of shifting blame i don't know if it's necessarily deliberate i don't think it's necessarily quite as pointed as i'm making it sound but but essentially it's a way of not offering an analysis i completely agree because there are things wrong i completely agree and i got exactly that sense of um that sense when i was listening to those quotes from uh from cbodeon on saturday after the game i was thinking well hold on a second contundencia you know we we missed efficiency in front of goal and blah blah blah you know look at how many chances did they have in this game not too many not too many Antoine Griezmann hits the post three Antoine Griezmann hits the post in the game I mean the xg is 1.06 I mean you know they scored they scored one goal that was their xg it was not like they had an unbelievable amount of chances so I don't know I don't I don't necessarily buy that it's a lack of efficiency in the front of goal it is true and if we go back in each game you can pinpoint moments so there's that moment in uh espanol where there's a beautiful move and i think it's marcos llorente who is alvarez who hits the post from inside the penalty area and and then there's the alex saulot chance threw on goal against elche to make it 2-0 and that probably would have changed things as well and then there is antoine griezmann hitting the post from a difficult angle but from four yards out so maybe that's what he's talking about but you can't just base your entire analysis on on missing a couple of chances.

23:23Phil Kitromilides:No, and even if you're right, you know, as you say, even if you can pick up on those three... But that's not an analysis. We should have scored our chances. Exactly, that's not an analysis. We know that. That's an analysis if everything else is okay. But if the structure around it isn't working, then it's not much of an analysis. I'd like to go a little bit broader here and just say something that I said to you and now at the weekend on the WhatsApp group. Just very simply, and we said this in the summer, with the exception of Alex Baena. And I even think Alex Baena doesn't really count because he's not as good as Antoine Griezmann was 18 months ago.

23:58Phil Kitromilides:So, all right. Or not as good as Antoine Griezmann even was at this stage of last season. Because I think until Christmas last year, Antoine Griezmann was brilliant. You look at the players that Atletico Madrid have signed. Is there a real leap in quality there? I don't think there is. I think their team's weaker with the departure of Rodrigo de Paul. You look at that midfield, that midfield is a lot more plodding than it used to be. admittedly rodrigo the poor was very erratic you know you didn't always get those performances out of him yeah yeah when he was good he gave you things that no one else gives you and then the problem now isn't just that no one else does give you that it's no one else can give you that i don't think in that midfield yeah i was looking at some of the signings and thinking about the people who have gone off the back of your comment about that you know none of them have really sort of improved the squad and okay our mother's coming now the school i think they have the 11 is my 11.