Spiritually bottom

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1:23Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the Spanish Football Podcast. I'm Phil Kitromelidis. I'm joined by Sid Lowe, who is wearing his Ray Loviedo shirt because earlier on today he was at an Oviedo game. We're recording on Sunday night, by the way, just after the final game played today. and Sydney. We'll try not to dwell too much on what happened to Oviedo today because it wasn't great.

1:45Phil Kitromilides:No, although I think in a way we probably have to because it sort of is the story of the weekend. I mean, obviously Real Madrid is the story of the weekend. It absolutely isn't, yeah. But Oviedo have sacked another manager. Well played, everybody. That's more managers or as many managers as victories so far this season. Very good. Yeah. Shambles. Shambles from Oviedo. We will talk a little bit about Real Oviedo this evening inevitably. This is what's happened on match day 16 in La Liga EA Sports. Friday night saw Girona come from behind and beat Real Sociedad 2-1 at Anoeta, Girona's first away win of the season.

2:21Real Sociedad were absolutely appalling in the second half of this game and they too have sacked their manager today, Sergio Francisco no longer in charge of the Basques. Atletico Madrid beating Valencia by two goals to one at the Metropolitano. Sydney was there for the first half of that game. He had to leave because he had to go and commentate or co-commentate. Mallorca's 3-1 win over Elche. I was on commentary for Barcelona's 2-0 win against Osasuna. And Sydney, the absolute glorious madman, went to Getafe of his own volition to watch them lose 1-0 at home to Espanyol, high-flying Espanyol, who are doing absolutely brilliantly.

3:00Then Sydney, the glorious madman, on Sunday went down to Sevilla and saw Roviedo lose 4-0. The final act of Luis Carrion's second lamentable tenure in charge of the Asturians. Celta Vigo, a big win for them, beating Athletic Club 2-0 at Balaidos. The game between Levante and Villarreal today was postponed because of torrential downpours in the Valencia area. And it's just finished at the Estadio Mendez. Real Madrid beating Alaves by two goals to one. And that is where we have to start the podcast, Sid, because despite your incidents, it's not the story of the weekend, Oviedo. Ray Oviedo, we will talk about them in a minute.

3:48We'll also talk about a lot of other things over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP for the rest of the week. Come and be a patron. I tell you every week, but there's loads of content there, loads of analysis. We answer your questions as well. It starts from€4.75 a month. It's really not a huge amount. of money you get loads of bonus content. Sid, I think we do more bonus content than almost anyone else on Patreon. Almost anyone else, certainly.

4:13Phil Kitromilides:Definitely. I mean, I don't know what anyone else does. Neither do I, but I've got the feeling that we're doing a lot. It's a bonus podcast every week, it is the TSFP Diary every week, it is the Q &A podcast every week as well. No ads over at patreon.com, access to the WhatsApp group, the Discord as well, the newsletter every single week as well. So yeah, there's a lot going on. Patreon.com forward slash TSFP. Speaking of a lot going on, let's talk about Real Madrid and their win at Alaves this evening, Sid, in one of the preview pieces I read. I can't remember if it was in AS or Marca. They said that Real Madrid tonight had to vencer y convencer, win and convince.

4:54They did one of those things, but not necessarily the

4:57Phil Kitromilides:other yeah I think that's a pretty good summary of it um and it's one of those when you come to the end of this game and you think to yourself has this changed anything uh now obviously the very very ultra short-term answer is yes because I think if they'd lost and if they'd lost particularly if they'd lost in a bad way then then that I think we'd all be sitting here now thinking well you know any time in the next 10 minutes any time in the next hour any time in the next couple of hours they're going to draw a line under this I think the fact they win probably takes maybe some of the urgency away.

5:29Phil Kitromilides:But I didn't think, and to use your line, as well as Ben Thierry, I didn't think they convinced. And in that sense, I didn't think they did anything that really changes Xavi Alonso's position very significantly. I don't really know, and you may have a better feel for this than me, because I think sometimes, particularly when you commentate on a game, your level of concentration is probably that bit clearer than mine. I don't really know fully how to analyse what Real Madrid did, or just as importantly, what Real Madrid were in this game. In my view, they were chaotic. In my view, there was no real control.

6:07Phil Kitromilides:There was actually for 20 minutes before they scored. They had 80 % possession in the first 15 minutes. Exactly. In that period before they scored. But from then on, I felt there wasn't a very clear pattern. There wasn't a clear structure. there wasn't a clear sense of, if you like, kind of a collective approach to what they're doing. Now, obviously, the context of this is, you know, the number of players out is in double figures. All of the defence is out. So you're playing with Fede Valverde, a right back. You're playing with Valde Peñas at left back, who, of course, will get better with age, Dudum, Tish and so on.

6:39Phil Kitromilides:You're talking about a team where he's put on all of the creative players he can, more or less. So he's playing Rodrigo, Vinicius and Mbappé, plus Bellingham. First time those three, I believe, had played together. Rudugo, Vinicius, and Embaid. Started. As starters, yep. And I didn't think it necessarily gave them very much. I mean, obviously, it gives them a lot in terms of there's a lot of talent on the pitch. But, for example, even something as simple as try and tell me what the formation is. So my view is the formation is four at the back, but with the two fullbacks pushing quite high on occasions and giving width.

7:14With Chamini in between the two centre-backs. Yes, exactly.

7:16Phil Kitromilides:Exactly. So it's four at the back with the two wing backs pushing quite high, but the central midfielder is sometimes dropping between them. In those moments in which the central midfielder isn't dropping between them, it's a midfield central partnership, sort of, of Germany and Articula. Theoretically, Bellingham playing on the left, but not playing very fast to the left, but playing a bit nudge to the left. Theoretically, on the right-hand side is, my mind's gone black, Rodrigo. But he's not playing out wide. He's playing sort of tucked inside. It's almost a circle, Brownbridge's midfield. The middle of the midfield is almost a circle or a square, if you like.

7:50Phil Kitromilides:And then up front, and this is one of the interesting things for me, Vinicius and Mbappé, but with their positions the other way around from what we've seen quite often. Now, not all game, because they were changing at times, but it was striking to me how often Vinicius was one through the middle and Mbappé was one drifting wide to the left from where he scored. Now, that's a broad overview, but I don't think that structure held for very much of the game. No? I mean, I don't know. I don't know, maybe you saw it differently, but that was my feeling with this. I was kind of watching it thinking, what are they?

8:24Phil Kitromilides:What are they trying to be in this game? Well, so this is, not just in this game, that's it. I mean, this is the question that we've had constantly. You know, Real Madrid with their individual talent, and when you've got the best goalkeeper in the world, and when you've got the best centre forward in the world, and they're both in terrific form, you're going to be okay in quite a lot of games because they will get you out of it. but just structurally and in terms of an idea and I say that but then there is supposed to be an idea and we sort of we saw it at the start of the season, we thought we saw it, we thought we knew what this team was going to play like and then it's just sort of falling apart.

9:00It feels

9:00Phil Kitromilides:like the idea has been lost at the behest is probably not quite the right word has been lost because of the if you like, the significance of the players. So in other words, this is an idea that a manager wants to put in place with some players that he has decided either don't really want to do it or don't naturally do it or don't fit with it and aren't that enamoured with the idea. And so bit by bit, it gets taken, not taken apart, but kind of gets broken down slightly. Now, we've talked about this a lot. It's not necessarily a bad thing for a manager to accommodate his players. In fact, I've said lots of times, I think one of the greatest skills really good managers have, which is really underrated is to listen, to listen and take on board what those players are saying.

9:44Phil Kitromilides:But it feels like that disconnect and that hasn't properly been bridged at any real point. And, you know, bear in mind that one of the reasons that Xavi Lanzar comes in is precisely because of this apparent desire to have a system, to have a manager with an identity and a clarity. And here's a plan. And we all allowed ourselves to be drawn into that mindset that said, wow, look how good these players are. imagine if there was a structure and a system, which for what it's worth, by the way, I think was unfair on Anjadotti in the first place. I also think it's unavoidable to look at last season and say anything other than that was a disastrous season for Alhamdulillah.

10:19Phil Kitromilides:An absolutely dreadful season all year long. And I thought we, and I include myself in this, I'm as guilty as others, I thought during the Club World Cup and in the opening games of the season, we allowed ourselves to see the beginnings of the structure because I think there was one. And I think we imagined that would continue to progress and actually it didn't and it hasn't. So you're saying it's not progressed because of the players? I think it's not progressed because there's been a kind of a realisation that it's not fitting them, that they're not following it through, that they're not taking it on in the way that Alonso would clearly have liked them to.

10:54Phil Kitromilides:And by the way, that is partly his fault as well. A manager's job, by the way, and it's worth making this point, is not to impose his system. It's to impose the right system. That's quite deep, Sid. Yeah, I like it. All right, so it wasn't great from Real Madrid. They did get the win. Mbappé with his 17th league goal of the season. Rodrigo, scoring his first league goal since the 19th of January, he's almost gone an entire calendar year without scoring in the league, broke the longest ever goal drought in Real Madrid history midweek against Manchester City and scored again tonight. I mean, I guess that's positive.

11:35I mean it is positive it's not negative but yeah that's positive Valdepeñas a decent little debut from him in difficult circumstances I don't know

11:48Phil Kitromilides:if you had a chance to see it yet because obviously we're coming straight off the back of the game but in the press conference just now Xavi Alonso made a point of saying that Valdepeñas played really well and I was very pleased with him and he said in the only moment in which he got it wrong they scored which is that ball through for Carlos with Hente. Gorgeous touch and finish, by the way. Really, really well taken. And I don't want to say that Xabi Alonso is wrong because he will have seen the movement, he will have seen what Valdez Pena did and he will think that that was flawed. But I feel like I have to take issue with him here.

12:22Phil Kitromilides:He's not the one playing. Exactly. It's Rudiger that plays him onside. It's not Valdez Pena that plays him onside. Now it's true that it's Valdez Pena that steps out and maybe if he doesn't step out, that doesn't happen. But Valdez only steps out and by his position succeeds in playing Carlos with the offside. It's Rüdiger that's back out of position. It's true that at that point, Rüdiger is partly distracted because he's having a go at his teammates but not putting the pressure on further up the pitch. And so in a way, that's quite a nice portrait of, if you like, the lack of coordination in Real Madrid.

12:50Phil Kitromilides:You've got one central defender stepping, one not stepping, and the one that's not stepping is pointing at the guys in front of him and saying, put that pressure on. And in taking the time to have a go, misses the pass, or at least misses his moment to step out and catch the player offside. And I just, there's a bit of me, and I don't know if I'm reading too much into this. I don't know if I'm reading too much into this. So tell me if you think I am. Is that a manager who, for whatever reason, didn't want to publicly call out Rudiger who has a status that Valde Peñas doesn't have? Ooh, I think you're reading too much into it.

13:25Okay, good.

13:26Phil Kitromilides:Thank you. Right. I prefer to think that. I prefer to believe that. But you... Because I think that's right. But I couldn't help wondering that because of the way things have gone over the last few weeks. You do have a more suspicious and twisted mind than me. I'm sort of naive. You know, in my head, it's just rainbows and pink, fluffy clouds. Is that the same rainbows that Real Oviedo can't score in? Is that the same one? Something like that. All right, listen, there's loads we didn't talk about Real Madrid. Ask us a question. We'll deal with it on the Q &A pod on Tuesday. I want to move on and talk about Barcelona, who were seven points clear of Real Madrid.

14:04Real Madrid cutting the gap to just four points. Barcelona taking a while to break down Osasuna. It was goalless at halftime. Osasuna had done this at the Bernabeu as well on matchday one. They'd gone away and they did what they did at the Camp Nou, which was play a back five. And it was a flat back five. So it wasn't two wingbacks. It was just five players across the back. very difficult to break through. They did manage to break through. And at the end, it was Rafinha who scored a brace. Let's talk about Rafinha, Sid, because he was playing as a number 10 in this game. It feels to me like it's a position he really likes and he's quite happy to play there, but it doesn't feel like it's his best position.

14:49Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, I think that probably sums it up reasonably well. In fact, post-game yesterday, I quite liked both his response and actually Hansi Flick's response on this. He said, look, I can play there and I enjoy it. And he said, but if you ask me what my favourite position is here, he says, I would say my natural position. He actually says my origin position, you know, my original place. And he makes a very interesting point. And I actually think this is really worth grabbing hold of. He says, when you come inside and you play in that central position, he said, you have so much less space and so much less time.

15:24Phil Kitromilides:He said, you spend longer periods of the game not getting on the ball, which on the face of it is possibly counterintuitive. And you might say, well, you come inside, you're closer to where the play is. But obviously, if you go outside, you're more likely to be able to receive the ball and go at people. You're more likely to be able to pick it up. And that thing that we've talked about before, and I've explained this before, that idea of reference points, that when you play on the wing, your reference point is the whole pitch is to the side of you. And there's no one coming up behind you. There's no need to be looking there.

15:51Phil Kitromilides:There's no deep ball worrying about what's coming, or at least not most of the time. In the middle of it, you've got to be aware of that all the time, which is one of the reasons why the players that are successful there are so good, because they're the ones that can deal with that in a way that others can't. And so Rafinha saying, I can do this and I like it and I like being close to goal, but it's harder and my other position is better, raises that question about if you are going to try and find the number 10 from amongst your forwards, rather than from amongst your midfielders, in other words, instead of it being Ferdemey or Dani Olmo, you're going to choose it from one of your forwards.

16:25Phil Kitromilides:Does that lead us back to going to the Lamin-Yamal experiment rather than the Rafinha experiment? Even though Hansi Flick, I think, probably prefers Rafinha there than Lamin-Yamal, or at least prefers the overall balance of the team more when it's Rafinha than Lamin-Yamal. And this is where I come on to what Hansi Flick said, because I liked his comment about this. He was asked about this and he said, but it's not about what Rafinha likes. it's about what's good for the team and of course that's the way it should be so is it like yeah okay I'm interested here to see what the future is in terms of the Barcelona forward line because I hadn't considered that this would be something um sort of a potential set thing going forward But we've seen Hansi Flick and his desire and ability to get players to play different positions.

17:17You know, I mean, Gerard Martin is now sort of starting centre-back for Barcelona at the moment when, you know, he was substitute left-back last season. Eric Garcia can literally play, I mean, genuinely played everywhere. He's played right-back, centre-back, left-back, centre-mid. You've got Rafinha now playing at number 10.

17:36Phil Kitromilides:The other thing about Eric Garcia is he played ahead of Frenkie de Jong this time. So this wasn't him playing in midfield because there was emergency because people were missing. No. This was him playing in that midfield position even when Frenkie de Jong was available. And I think that's really interesting. And obviously, we should point out at this stage that Eric in midfield was something that Xavi Hernandez had done as well. But without a huge amount of conviction, I think. Yeah. He'd sort of seen it as a solution. And I think Hansi Flick had initially seen it as a solution. But I think it's a solution.

18:05Phil Kitromilides:he's increasingly becoming quite convinced by. You think so? I mean, in a big game? I think he likes it. Yeah, okay. I think he likes it. I mean, he definitely does like it, whether or not it's the right thing to be. And also, it's worth remembering that, you know, we're talking about that adaptation of one of the forward players to play behind the forward line. Yeah. It's worth saying that that is happening while Danny Olmo's out and while Ferdermain's out and while you're looking for an alternative because you don't necessarily have the other man. You know, Gabby's not available at the moment.

18:35Fermin is not out. Fermin is available. No, you're right. Sorry, Fermin's not out. You're right. Fermin's not out. Very much available. Started in midweek in the Champions League.