The answer is Yes

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1:33Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the Spanish Football Podcast. I'm Phil Kitramelidis, joined as ever by Sid Lowe. Hello Sydney. Good morning Philip. You're back home. I am, yes. Yes. It's been a while, do you know what? Because of the Club World Cup and then a bit of being in London. That was a while ago. Yeah. And then a bit of, I think I've probably only been in this house for something like six days in the last two months or something. We certainly haven't been in this house for a long time. When was the Club World Cup? You're right. That was a long time ago anyway. Yeah.

2:06I'm properly back. It's quite depressing. Good. Well, no, I find it reassuring to see that you're back in your study. There are books behind you and all is right with the world. Obviously it's international break. We didn't have any La Liga this weekend, but we did have Spain. playing. We did a podcast on Friday to reflect on their 3-0 victory over Bulgaria and they played last night in their second World Cup qualifier and they absolutely spanked, demolished, destroyed, eviscerated Turkey by six goals to nil in a game which finished 6-0. They could have scored 10 or 11. It was a really, really big performance.

2:42Sid, as good as this performance was and it was fantastic. I've actually been struck by the level of sort of euphoria that this has sparked here in Spain. Certainly amongst the media, I heard people yesterday referring to it as, you know, a historic performance, a game which will never be forgotten by anybody who witnessed it. And this is a team that's played pretty well and has some pretty big results over the last 10 or 15 years. And yet it It felt last night, certainly the way it was being reported on, that this was a really, really big performance and result. Where do you stand on how we should be evaluating what we saw last night?

3:21Shall we rewind to our last podcast, what was it, four days ago, in which I was trying very hard to say, look, I think Bulgaria really aren't very good. I think what Spain did against Bulgaria needs to be put into that context because I think they were playing against an opponent that just wasn't good enough. Again, I'm in a position where I don't know how to judge how good Turkey are, but they're supposed to be good. This isn't supposed to happen to them. You know, maybe this happens to Bulgaria. It's supposed to happen. It's not supposed to happen to Turkey. And I thought Spain were absolutely fantastic.

3:51Now, it is true that we've seen before occasions where Spain have played phenomenally well. I was there in an empty stadium and indeed in a hotel room that looked down onto an empty stadium when Spain scored six against Germany, La Catuja, and were absolutely phenomenal. And I think we all thought at that point, you know, this is the beginning of something extraordinary. That was a while ago, wasn't it? And that was a while ago. 2017? Yeah, I think it was Lopetegui's team. So, and of course, now, obviously, there's the context of that team going to the World Cup in Russia and Lopetegui being sacked two days before they started.

4:24And so, you know, maybe that team would have gone on and been brilliant. I think it was Lopetegui's team. Anyway, I'm worried now that I might have got that wrong. I remember them being brilliant against Italy with Isco playing fantastic. You know, there's lots of times when we thought it was happening and it doesn't. And you can have a one-off good game. Now, the counter-argument to that is that this is a team that's just won the European Championships the way they want it. And I genuinely think that we've never seen a European champion be that good in terms of how difficult were the teams you had to play and how effectively did you get through them?

4:56Only really against Germany were they ever in trouble. Even in the final against England when they had to score with it, what was it, seven minutes to go or six minutes to go? They've been the better team comfortably throughout that. They beat four world champions en route. They played really, really good football all the way through. They've managed to mix up a little bit some of those traditional qualities of Spain with something a little bit more direct. The introduction, obviously, of Laminia Maal, but also of Nico Williams, changes the way that they play a little bit because they have wingers that go at you, not entirely in straight lines, but they go at you and beyond you.

5:24And last night, I thought, was a brilliant combination of all of those things. I think as well, maybe if we're trying to put this in a historic context, It's their second biggest away win ever. The first is against Lichtenstein. Now that really is an opponent where it doesn't count. Sorry if you're from Lichtenstein, anyone. And so I think people are entitled to feel very, very excited about this. Let me give you a really simple and probably meaningless way of framing this. I have to write about this today. I was always going to have to write about this today. It's not because they won. The email from my editor on Friday of last week said, can you do a piece on Monday taking in both of the Spain games and you know are they going to win the World Cup I just thought what a silly question and this morning I'm thinking the answer to that question is yes they are they are going to win the World Cup yeah yes easily of course not easily now they probably won't still probably something will happen only one team can win the World Cup all sorts of weird things happen but there isn't a team I don't think and I say this with the nervousness of saying it because I'm not watching absolutely every international team in the world but there isn't a team that's playing like this I think well you can't possibly know that because we're not watching all these all the teams right no exactly yeah but I'm looking but you're looking at results you're seeing highlights from games you're picking up on on reports of everyone nobody who else anywhere is getting excited brazilian shambles I mean Argentina you have that down go on Portugal did beat Spain in the ninth Nations League yes they did yes they did and Spain have come from I mean that's one way of putting it Spain have come from a European Championship win where they were the best comfortably, a Nations League final, and now obviously heading into the World Cup.

7:00Does it mean they're going to win it? No, not necessarily. And I think you're right. By the way, I think Portugal have an incredibly strong squad. I always find Portugal to be a miracle. I don't quite know how they do it in terms of population. But Spain look really, really good indeed. And I suppose one way of framing it is if we talk about the team that won the European Championships and we ask ourselves, in what way are they better? I think we can pick up on two or three really tangible ways in which they can be better than they were at the Euros. Okay, go on. Well, Laminya Mal is older. Yes.

7:31I also think, and playing with more consistency, I also think if you look at him, he's physically better than he was. Oh, he's bigger. Yes, but you saw last night, I was really struck by this. A few times last night where he was beating players through more basic things than normal. Just being bigger and stronger. around them and having big shoulders and nudging them off the ball and being able to go through them. And that's not really something we'd seen from him before. So there's that. I think there's the shifting role of Pedri and the centrality of what he's doing, which I think is potentially really important.

8:09I personally think, I think it's much too early for me to get too excited about this, but I am impressed. I think the role of Dean Halston might turn out to be really important. Someone who can bring the ball out, who can step into midfield, that when you play really deep teams that's happened last night, effectively steps into midfield and allows all the midfielders to then take a step further on as well and to really box the opposition in. Now, could Spain end up being caught because he's stepping forward? Yeah, maybe, maybe, but it's there. And so, you know, there are three very basic, tangible things that I think put them in an even better position than 18 months ago.

8:43Let's pick up on the Pedri thing because last night was an exceptional performance from the magician from the Canary Islands. He scored twice. It wasn't just the goals, though. It was really the heartbeat of this team. And it does help with him playing in his best position. And his best position is not at number 10 anymore. We saw it last year with Barcelona playing a little bit further back, being able to control matches. It's true that in theory, if he does play further back, then he's not as close to the penalty area, which is where he can cause damage. He's got a fantastic shot. We saw that last night.

9:17We saw it for Barcelona on match day two when he scored against Levante from the edge of the area as well. He's got that in his locker, but he's so able to control matches from a little bit further back that I think that change in position and not just him playing in a different position, but it means that someone else is playing where he was further forward. And last night it was Mikel Moreno who scored a hat trick who seems very effective in that position, but you've got options. You've got Dani Olmo. Where does Fabian Ruiz play in this team as well? So Pedri's shift back has helped him, but I think it's helped the team as well.

9:47I think that's absolutely right. And last night we saw it, as you say, in particular with Michael Marino, it'd be easy to pick up on his stats, but pre-goals, you can't ignore three goals. I think there's more than that. I think it's Marino's ability to be everywhere. So to be at the top of the pitch, but when he's needed to be doing some of those covering runs as well. I think there's also something else to be said about Pedri's role, which is to say that, you know, you talk about he's good close to the area. He's good at providing that final pass. And actually, recently, we're seeing a Pedri who shoots more often.

10:15Yeah, I think he's been told to. Yeah, I think he probably has. I think we saw a stat this morning. I think I'm right in saying it's four of his last five goals to come from outside the area. Or maybe it's three of only four, which perhaps is not quite the step again. But again, it's a bit of a step. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that those goals have all come from the deeper position. So although you're playing in further back, you're not denying the opportunity for him to do that. And I think this is the important point here for me, is that Pedri's deeper role doesn't mean he's deep all the time.

10:45That's just the starting point of what he does. And so I think what's really happening is it's changing the beginning of the sequences he's involved in. Take, for example, the second goal yesterday, which was 75 seconds of Spain moving the ball all over the pitch. Pedri being involved at a deeper point, at midpoint and at a higher point throughout that move. And so it's not that Pedri kind of gets the ball in deep midfield like Busquets would once have done. plays it to someone, and everyone else gets on with it. Pedri is the thread that runs through a lot of these moves. And so, whereas before, if Pedri's at number 10, it might be that he doesn't get involved as much.

11:17Why? Because he's waiting for the ball to come to him. What's happening now, because he's at the start of those moves, he's not waiting for the ball to come to him because it comes to him early. But nor is he then, having played his pass, waiting to see what everyone else does with it. He's then joining it. And I wonder if, and I don't know, and I'd love someone with a proper tactical and analytical eye to kind of explain this to me. In fact, I'm going to ask some people about this. I wonder whether Hauston's ability to step up and occupy the space that Pedri has just been in allows Pedri to keep stepping up.

11:48If you sort of mean, it allows the chains, the links in the chain to keep moving forward, if you sort of mean. So Pedri is always in the move. It's not that Pedri's at the bottom and then it's gone. It's that Pedri's at the bottom, then in the middle, and then at the top. And so I think, of course, there's a risk in that. And there's a risk in maybe Pedri following the move through and then being turned and the move goes and it's behind him. He gets caught out. Yes, there's that risk. But that's in theory what Philby Mendy is there for and also what Hausson is there for stepping into. So I think it's I think it's really exciting.

12:16And, you know, I think what Flick has done for potentially for the Spanish national team is really quite important in finding that deeper role for Pedri, which doesn't deny him the chance to play an attacking role as well, because it's not deep role only. The starting XI for this game was the same starting XI that started three days before in Bulgaria. It's not usual for a manager to keep the same XI for two games in the space of three days. Obviously, it was Unai Simon in gold and across the back four, Pedro Porro, Dean Housen, Lennon Mand and Cucurea. Midfield, Subi Mendy alongside Pedri with Mikel Moreno just ahead of him, Nico Williams, Lamin and Ollar Zabar.

12:52That looks to be potentially Spain's strongest starting XI with the two question marks over Pedro Porro slash Danny Carvajal and Subi Mendy slash Rodri. Apart from that, and also, well, I guess we could add the, you know, Fabian Ruiz as well. He usually tends to play at some point. But yeah, there seems to be a call there that I think the manager likes once. And certainly the front three seems to be very much on paper. We know that it's going to be those three. I wanted to ask you about Rodri. He came on for the last few minutes of this game and against Bulgaria as well. Got the feeling that he's not quite there yet.

13:30But obviously, when he's 100 % fit and fully back and in competitive rhythm, as they say in Spanish, he should start ahead of Martin Thuby Mendy. But now he's got competition with Thuby Mendy, providing pretty stiff composition and showing that he can be very strong in that position. Yeah, I mean, to use De La Fuente's own line when he was asked about Rodri's injury, He said, look, I've got the best central midfielder in the world, but luckily I've also got the second best, which is Soutan Mendy. And you're right. I think Rodri doesn't look quite there yet. I think it may well be that this takes longer than we anticipate.

14:03It may well be that it takes not just him to be there, but maybe Manchester City to be back at a level that enables him to kind of fully... That might not happen for a while. Well, I mean, and that's genuinely important. This is a contextual part of it. that might impact upon the way that he plays and the way he's able to play in his development. And those things do play a part. And, you know, talking to people who've had ACL problems before, that quite often there's a really big difference between when you come back and when you're really back. And it can be five, six, even seven months sometimes before you're fully on that cycle again.

14:42And I suppose the good news is how well Fubi Mendy has been playing with Spain. I'm yet to, obviously, all of us are yet to really know exactly how well that will fit with Arsenal and how much continuity he'll get there and how well he'll play and how much of a difference. He's done pretty well so far. Yeah, how much of an impact that will have on him. But I mean, it's a mad thing to say, but the Ballon d 'Or winner being absent at the moment doesn't seem to matter for Spain. And that's a pretty good position to be in. And right back? Right back. I think it will be Carvajal, but I'm not 100 % certain about that.

15:14Again, it will depend on what kind of condition he's in. I think we talked about this a little bit in the last podcast. I think Carvajal gives you some characteristics that maybe Poto doesn't, as much off the pictures on it, although Poto has some of those. And, you know, I suppose if you're going to point out anyone who you felt was slightly got out a little bit yesterday, it was Poto because what Little Turkey did was on that side. But I think that would be very, very nitpickety to do that. But I think you, I suppose you have to, and particularly if you're a manager analysing your team, you have to look at all those details.

15:45But I think you're right. I think that it probably will be Carver Howell but bear in mind Carver Howell correct me if I'm wrong he's 32 and has just come off the back of an injury I think he's a bit older than that he's older than that even and just come off an injury so it may well be that it's still Pedro Rapport by the time the World Cup comes around Yes confirmation that he's 33 33 okay Also shout out to Fruity George Jorge de Frutos Ray Vallecano's winger slash forward who made his debut for Spain and there's a brilliant video go and check out our social media on X, we posted it there at TSF underscore podcast of basically the whole of his hometown it's a small village in Segovia where 92 people live his parents own a bar and everybody was crammed into this bar last night watching Jorge de Frutos make his Spain debut, so shout out to Fruity George who came on in the second half and made his debut you go and check that video out.

16:47La Liga is back this week so why not join us over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP. Membership starts at just€4.75 a month. As always this week patrons are going to be getting the newsletter, the Q &A podcast and the bonus podcast plus there's the discord and the whatsapp community and for some of our top tier patrons we've got the TSFP diary. Last week Sid was talking about what it's like to cover the Spain national team from a journalist perspective This week, the diary is going to cover Al's trip to San Sebastián for Real Sociedad versus Real Madrid. So expect football chat and also lots of food.

17:24Yeah, it would just be the sound of Al in a pinch over half. Yes. Just going through these incredible constructions nailed to bread with little... Oh, fantastic. So come and join us, patreon.com forward slash TSFP. If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo. Odoo is an all-in-one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy-to-use platform. So instead of wasting time switching between disconnected systems, your entire business works together in real time.

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19:02City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Now at Lowe's. Faster quotes start at the Lowe's Pro Desk. Got a material list handwritten on a sticky note or saved as a photo? Perfect. Bring it to us and get a quote in minutes. And if you don't see what you need on the shelf, we'll help you get it. You can access thousands of products beyond what's available in-store or on Lowe's.com, right from the Lowe's Pro Desk. Build quotes faster and source the materials you need to keep Keep your jobs moving just like that at Lowe's. Sydney, I wanted to pick up on something. Looking through the stories in the papers this morning, trying to find interesting stuff for us to discuss on the podcast, given that it is international break, so we don't have La Liga matches to talk about.

19:51There is a La Liga match that I do want to talk about, and it's the one that is supposed to take place in Miami, Villarreal against Barcelona in December. We had the president of the Players Union, who's been speaking, and he's been in the papers today, David Aganzo, saying and bemoaning the lack of communication with La Liga, saying, we don't know anything about this game. We literally have had no communication. We don't know what's going on. They've told us nothing. We know La Liga really wants to make this happen. We know that Javier Tevez has been trying to make this happen for a long time.

20:28They think that it's important for the growth of the league to take it away. And we have also discussed how we feel about it on a sort of emotional and psychological and conceptual level. I just want to sort of ask you, you know, Sid, do we think this is going to happen? This is going to happen? And the league union, the players union, they don't really have the power to make it not happen or do they? Right, well, I mean, that was the first part of the answer that I wanted to give you. If the blocking of this game depends on the players' union, on the Afe, and on David Agantho, then it will happen.

21:07Because when you hear David Agantho, and he's talking about the lack of communication and so on, and he's talking about that players haven't been consulted, whenever you hear him, I don't know about you, but I always feel that he's very lukewarm. You never really feel like this is someone who's actually going to stand up for this, that's actually got a clear position on it. It may well be that one of the reasons for that is actually not all of his players agree, that some of them may well be in favour of it. We all assume that players don't want to go to Miami and so on. But obviously, bear in mind that only two teams go.

21:36A lot of players probably don't really care. A lot of players probably consider that, well, we won't go in the end. And they may well feel that actually they may well have been through some of the arguments and think that this generates the kind of money that in the end is good for us. And essentially, we earn this money. Who was it the other day that was talking about it? Was it Inigo Pereth, I think, the Brio manager, saying that, you know, we complain about these things, but so long as we're on that wheel and we're part of who benefits from the generation of money, we kind of can't complain too much.

22:01Now, I think, to be honest, that's a little bit of a cop-out. I must admit, I think that's a little bit of a cop-out. From a manager who, by the way, I admire enormously and I think always speaks really well, really reasonably. Anyway, sorry, the point I was making really was I don't think that if it's down to the players' union, this will go ahead. I think there's absolutely no way they will block it. I don't think that they will have the power to do so. I think you might even get a point at which there's some threat of a strike, but it won't happen. I think really the only way this gets stopped now is if somehow UEFA intervene and prevent it.

22:30Now, we know that FIFA won't prevent it because Gianni Infantino is in favour of it, but it wouldn't amaze me if UEFA tried. And I think Fefferin is more likely to be opposed to it and more likely to put his foot down. but he may well feel as well that he doesn't have the jurisdiction to entirely do that. I think UEFA are looking at it this week. I think they've got a meeting on Thursday. Exactly. Watch this space because obviously it's a really big thing. A lot of our listeners are in the USA as well. So this is a big thing for them. It's a big thing on a sort of, like I said, intrinsic conceptual level for Spanish football as well, whether or not this match actually happens and what it means.

23:06And also the knock-on effect. So you talk about the impact for Spanish football. If this works, there will be other leagues who think, okay, this is worth trying or have a competition. Now, obviously, the Spanish Super Cup is already in Saudi Arabia. The Italian Super Cup, I think I'm right in saying, is also Saudi Arabia, or is it Abu Dhabi? I think it's Saudi Arabia. So, you know, it's the beginning of something. Now, what would be interesting, from my point of view, do you know what the first thing I thought, actually, when I first heard, I can't remember the exact line now, but there was a phrase from Zephyr in which basically said, we're opposed to this.

23:36I think the phrase was, European football should be played in Europe. I think that was the phrase. The first thing I thought when I heard that phrase wasn't, oh, that means maybe the La Liga game won't happen there. The first thing I thought was, ah, so the Champions League final isn't going abroad then. Because to be perfectly honest with you, I have been convinced for a long time that we're not that far off a Champions League final being played in New York or Los Angeles or whatever. Now, obviously, we can go on about this for ages, and I'm not going to now because we've done it before. And it does propose all sorts of kind of conceptual, and if you like almost, I don't know if moral's quite the right word, that makes it sound far too overblown.

24:13But they've posed some pretty significant questions, which I actually think mostly haven't been addressed by the people involved. One very brief thing to say. There was a suggestion from the Villarreal owner that, well, look, we will get all of our fans out of there, all of them. Yes. So, okay, I would love them to call your bluff. I would love you to be in a position where suddenly you've got to house 25 ,000 people to find plane seats and tickets for 25 ,000 people. He literally said that we will pay for flights. All of them. He didn't say that they'd pay for the actual expenses but he said flights and tickets will pay for it.