The Friday Podcast

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1:35Hello everyone and welcome to... We had a bit of an existential crisis wondering what we should call this podcast because it's not a preview podcast because there's nothing to preview. It is on Friday though, so let's just stick with the Friday podcast. Hello, Sydney.

1:50Phil Kitromilides:it's imaginative, the Friday podcast, where we don't preview anything. Well, I mean, we can mention that Second Division are playing this week. We can, but don't expect us to go in-depth into La Liga hyper-motion. Sydney's had quite enough of that for one lifetime. Yeah, although I suspect I might have a bit more of it next season, don't you? I do, my friend, I do. I'm glad you are approaching this season with realism. I absolutely am, yeah. Yes. So, look, we're here. We thought, shall we do a pod? Should we not do a pod? Is there any need to do a pod? There's nothing to preview, but we're still doing a pod.

2:23What we can do is talk about Spain. They played last night and they're playing on Sunday as well. They've got a very short World Cup qualifying campaign. They've got six World Cup qualifiers. So each one of these games in an admittedly straightforward looking group is really quite important. You've got very little margin for error. They were away in Bulgaria last night. They're away in Turkey. They've got Georgia in the group as well. On paper, it's a group that they should win pretty comfortably. And yesterday they did win pretty comfortably. And I was enjoying listening to your diary entry, which is for some of our higher tier patrons.

3:00You get access to the TSFP diary. It's a new thing that we're doing this season. Every week we talk about some stuff behind the scenes and what it's like to cover football and from our perspective and blah, blah, blah. And Sid made reference to Uncle Bulgaria, which is a cultural reference that is, even for people who are from the UK, a little bit vague. It's from a sort of 70s, 80s kids show called The Wombles, which, you know, almost none of you will remember or know of. And anyway, you said, never mind Bulgaria, they might as well be playing Uncle Bulgaria. essentially saying Bulgaria weren't very good and Spain were comfortably better than them.

3:41Which they were. You've still got to be what's in front of you, Sid. But yeah, yesterday it was very one-sided.

3:46Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, Uncle Bulgaria, for those who don't know, is a kind of a cuddly, rodenty character that lives under Wimbledon Common and certainly not an international footballer, let alone 11 of them. So I had to try and put this into context for you. It's very difficult to judge how good Spain were yesterday because Bulgaria were really, really poor. You know, they just weren't, it just wasn't a contest really. Spain completely boxed them into their area. I thought Spain used the ball very well. I thought the thing that did strike my guess, and we've talked about this before, any professional team that plays very, very deep are going to make it difficult for you to create chances.

4:23Phil Kitromilides:And I thought Spain continued to create a lot. Now, admittedly, certainly to begin with, it was because actually Spain were getting behind Bulgaria really quite easily. and then by that dominance increasing, Bulgaria got deeper and deeper and then it became harder. But they were still carving out chances. They were still able to, the little quick interchange in tight spaces was really impressive. And Spain did look very good. But as I say, I'm reluctant to get too excited about Spain because I thought they were up against a team that were pretty horrible. Well, they were. But let's just put this into perspective.

4:55I mean, England only beat Andorra 1-0.

4:57Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, absolutely. No, no, absolutely. Germany lost to Slovakia last night, you know, so to completely dominate another international side like this and one with, you know, Bulgaria is not Andorra. They're not that good, but they're still more of a footballing powerhouse than Andorra. And to make them look like Uncle Bulgaria was really quite impressive. We did a little preview of this or we mentioned it in our bonus podcast yesterday. for patrons at patreon.com forward slash TSFP. And one of the question marks that I potentially posed in the starting XI was up front, through the middle, who was going to play?

5:38Was it going to be Mikel Oyarzabal, who we almost certainly thought it was? Was Ferran Torres going to get a chance through the middle? Well, Mikel Oyarzabal started the game, scored, played really well as well, Sid.

5:49Phil Kitromilides:Yeah. He's a footballer, Mikel Oyarzabal, who if you do... How do I put this? If you do a checklist of qualities... Yes. You're sort of not really sure what you come up with. He's someone who's sort of seven on most things. Apart from speed, I would say. He's seven or eight on most things. And the things he's really good at are not the things that immediately, to use a Spanish phrase, they're not the things that fill your eye, that catch your eye immediately. And I think what he's really good at essentially is the quality of the understanding where the ball's going to drop, the intuition, the movement those things that are not necessarily easy to measure or sometimes even to grasp and when you watch a player and that sense that it kind of drops to him quite often you think well why and it's because he understands the game so well I also think he's not really a centre forward and I think at times that helps with Spain because I think he's quite good at vacating space about about creating spaces for others to go into about playing off people I think he is capable of going beyond the fences but it's not really what he naturally does I think he is capable of playing around the fences, but it's not really what he naturally does.

6:58Phil Kitromilides:As you say, it's kind of this seven and everything, but really good at all of it. And that intuition, I think, is much higher than the seven. And yet that's the thing that is hard to fully measure. And his goal scoring record with Spain is really, really good. We were talking about how good France was. It was roughly a goal every other game in 48 or 49 internationals. I think it was 21 in 49, if I remember rightly. Oya Thabla is up at something like 16, I think. and probably in slightly fewer games, although I'm not 100 % sure about that. And that just kind of that awareness of the game, which I think makes him useful.

7:31Phil Kitromilides:And I think Luis de la Fuente really likes him because of it. And I think at the moment, he and Ferran Torres are the two choices up front because they don't have, at the moment at least, an obvious choice up front, except for Morata. And there does seem to be a slight sense that, OK, Morata's moment may have passed. Mikel Ojerzaval opening the scoring in this game Marco Correa also getting on the score sheet as did Mikel Marino and I thought Miki Marino had a good game as well Yeah and I think here for me is the most significant thing about last night on the pitch or at least in terms of the 11 and that is that the midfield three which was Thuby Mendy, Pedri and Marino and I think we've been calling for this for a while because Pedri has been playing deeper for a year now with Barcelona was inverted So what would once have been Subimendi with Mourinho and Pedri in front of them was Subimendi with Pedri and Mourinho in front of them.

8:21Phil Kitromilides:And I think it worked. And I think it suits all of them. I don't know, to be perfectly honest with you, that Mourinho will continue to play in that position because I think it's more likely to be Danny Olimar more often than not. But for the moment, at least, and the good thing about Mourinho there rather than Olimar, I suppose, is that Mourinho also has, if you like, the mindset of a deepened field. So in those moments when you need it, he's more likely to do some of that defensive work he's more likely to drop in he's maybe more likely to put the pressure on the on the deep midfielder of the other team or even the centre back of the other team although I don't think Olman does that badly by any means but I think the fundamental thing for me last night that was different and that was different in a positive sense was Pedri playing from a deeper position in which he could run the game now I didn't see the final stats last night but he was up at something like 110 passes by the end of the game Now, admittedly, you know, not all of those are important.

9:12Phil Kitromilides:It's about the nature of the game. But I think it tells you something about Pedri's evolving role into a midfielder who's at the very, very heart of everything, not just there to provide the final pass in a move. Yes, absolutely. Mickey Marina also giving a sort of aerial threat as well. We've spoken about Spain needing perhaps a little bit of a, if not a plan B, but certainly someone who can, if you need to stick the ball in there. It can help. It can help. And you can score the goal that maybe opens the game up or score the goal that maybe defines a game that you're struggling to find that chance, as we saw, of course, against Germany and the Euros.

9:50Phil Kitromilides:I think if you look at this game last night and you think about it in terms of what has changed from the Euros, what has got better, I think the evolution of Pedri into a deep midfield position might be one of the answers. And I think the other one, by the way, the first goal is a really nice goal. And it starts with a Dean Housen ball wide to Lamin-Yumala. A really lovely diagonal that Lamin takes down brilliantly. And I think that the fact that Lamin is a couple of years older, I think is part of this. And I also think Housen and his ability to bring the ball out from the back may well prove to be a really big step forward for the Spanish national team.

10:23Yeah, and we saw that a lot yesterday as well. We really did. 120 accurate passes from Pedri. 120 is it in the end? Wow. From 130.

10:34Phil Kitromilides:10 loss, that's quite bad. That's pretty rubbish actually. Why did you bring him up? So Spain with this very comfortable win and just what was ordered to kick off the World Cup qualifying campaign. They're in Turkey on Sunday night for what should be the other team in the group who could in theory top it. I think Turkey won their first game as well against Georgia 3-2, so it's between Spain and Turkey. Let's see. One other thing just to throw into the mix, if we're looking at this game and trying to think about positives, or at least just trying to think about things that have shifted or changed or that make us feel that this is a side that can be really strong, is when you see in the second half a triple substitution and the players coming on are Carvajal, Rodri and Olmo, you start thinking, actually, there's a real strength in depth here, and I do think that Carvajal is going to be very, very important indeed.

11:28Phil Kitromilides:I like I like Porro, but I don't think he's Carvajal. I like Porro. I mean, he's quite similar to Carvajal. I don't think he has that quite the same edge of nasty bastardry that Carvajal has that I think is really quite important at times. He's got a bit of it. He's got a bit of it, to be fair. He's got a bit of it. I love that. I don't know if you saw it. Far bit from me to pick up my work or anything. I interviewed him. I've actually interviewed him a couple of times now, but the first time I interviewed him, which will be a couple of years ago, he came up with this amazing phrase, which I love.

12:00Phil Kitromilides:Sorry, who? Pedro Porro. Pedro Porro. And he was talking about being kind of thrown in at the deep end and, you know, having to arrive in England, not speaking any English and, you know, a difficult situation. And the point he was trying to make was, look, I've got the character for this. I've got the courage for this, the nerve. And his phrase was, throw me in a prison and in 24 hours I'll be running the place. And I just thought, what a brilliant way of putting it. Wow, yeah I mean, maybe I could see that maybe not I mean, I'm not sure if he knows quite how rough a prison can be I have this image of prison break with whatever the guy's name is with all the tattoos and Pedro Porro turning up being the bad guy Yeah, it could be quite handy quite tasty, Pedro Porro He's from rural Extremadura which doesn't scream No, it doesn't It doesn't scream tough guys, does it?

12:53Anyway, so So Spade beat Bulgaria 3-0. And let's see what they do against Turkey.

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14:32A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com. Do you want to talk about Second Division, Sid?

15:02Phil Kitromilides:Well, I mean, here we go. Let me tell you the thing that occurs to me about the Second Division. And I was actually intrigued by this. I was intrigued by what would happen on international break during the second division, because obviously I noticed this. International break in the second division over the last few years was always Oviedo against Sporting. And it was clearly a deliberate, structured policy from the La Liga. Let's have the biggest game, the game we can best market for the weekend when there's no first division games. So we can give people something to fill the gap. So I was thinking...

15:30Phil Kitromilides:What they've done instead. Exactly. What's going to be the Asturias derby? And it's Sporting against Depor, which is massive. And I'm quite pleased it's that as well. Depor against Sporting. Depor against Sporting, yeah. Yes, at Reator on Saturday afternoon as well. So, yeah, I guess that is the big fixture. But you've also got, you've got Zaragoza against Valladolid as well, which is pretty big. You've got Malaga against Granada. Well, I was looking at the attendance figures from last weekend in the second division. And obviously, I was conscious of this when Oviedo were there. And, you know, hopefully I won't have to be conscious of it again if I'd be able to go back down.

16:09Phil Kitromilides:But I think it reinforced something that we've talked about a lot. I think the attendances from the first weekend of games, I think there were four games of the... Sorry, of the 11, actually, in that division. Four games of the 11 that were over 20 ,000. The second division is full of big clubs and full of clubs that we'd really, really like to see in the first division again. You'd really like to see Sporting and Depp Porter and Thadagoth back in the first division. I saw, I think it was a piece in Marker over the last couple of days where they were suggesting that more young people are becoming fans of their city's teams rather than Real Madrid and Barcelona than in previous years, which has aided numbers big numbers of Sotheos and season ticket holders for clubs in the second division that this sort of impulse from younger fans and I think actually that might be right Well, I honestly, I can't even anecdotally, anecdotally, I can't really stand it up for everybody else.

17:11Phil Kitromilides:But it's 100%. You're talking about Oviedo. Exactly. That's where I was going. It's 100 % true of Real Oviedo. 100 % true. One of the things that really struck me and one of the things that I talked about a lot with Oviedo, supporting friends who obviously mostly are older because I'm an old man now, was this really keen sense of excitement at how an entire generation of people who'd never seen Oviedo in the first division were packing the stadium. You would see a city full of shirts. You would see a city full of young people pre-game, really getting into it with the fireworks, meeting in the bars around the stadium.

17:45A real sense that by being in the second division,

17:49Phil Kitromilides:or maybe not because they're in the second division, but maybe it's just chance. But I think actually it is partly a corollary of that, that Oviedo had effectively gained a generation of fans, gained a new life, if you like. and I think it's really, really noticeable. Oviedo did something which I thought was really lovely in the first home game after 24 years. The honorary kick-off was taken by two Real Oviedo season ticket holders who've been season ticket holders since they were born and both of them were born in 2001. And the idea was, here's the symbolism of these people who've never seen us in the first division but stayed with us all the way through, you know, never went away.

18:23Phil Kitromilides:And I think there's definitely been a surge in young fandom and maybe that is partly a response to getting a little bit bored of the bigger clubs. Maybe it is a response of wanting to feel some identification with something that's more tangible because you can go. And certainly, you know, as I say, and I really hope it's not just Soviedo, I'd love to think this was true of Sporting and of Depor and of Thadagotha and of Rating Santander and of Valladolid as well, because I think it's very, very good for football if that's the case. I mean, I feel like it is. And certainly when you look at the numbers of fans going, the number of Soviedo's, people becoming members and people becoming season ticket holders, you know, people, I think, you know, Rating Santander have had record numbers.

19:03Valladolid, last season Valladolid, they were absolutely terrible. They were relegated. They had a record number of season tickets and never had as many season tickets as they sold last season. And we talked about this in one of the Rincon Cultural newsletters last season. The concept of people having two teams, supporting the team of your city, but also saying that you're a Real Madrid or a Barcelona fan. And I think that probably does still exist, but maybe people are more fans of their hometown club than in the past.

19:39Phil Kitromilides:And they're encountering a different experience as well. And I think what this does as well, and I think it is quite important. And, you know, I don't want to turn this into a kind of an attack on the Super League or whatever. But one of the arguments of the Super League was this idea that, well, kids just don't watch football anymore. Kids aren't interested anymore. They haven't got the attention span. and they'd rather watch it at home. They're not bothered by smaller clubs. And I think and I hope that this phenomenon is actually making a lie of that. I mean, not necessarily a lie, because obviously people still want to watch really big teams play against each other.

20:12Phil Kitromilides:But maybe there's a division of experience now. Maybe there is experience that says, yeah, I want to watch the biggest games on TV. But you know what? I also want the experience of being in the ground and being a participant and feeling identified with my club and feeling like I actually play a part in it and for me at least one of the really really satisfying things about following obviado over the last well i mean in particular over the last 10 years or so but i will go further is that sense of participation that sense of it genuinely mattering and feeling like actually you know what they need us as much as we're going just to be entertained by them just going back to the concept of sort of having two teams and being supporting the local team and supporting real madrid and barcelona as well i'm in a whatsapp group with them you know a few different spanish people.

20:54One of them is a big Oviedo fan and the other someone else is a massive Atletico Madrid fan. An Atletico Madrid fan was teasing the Oviedo fan in the build-up to Oviedo's first home game against Real Madrid. You're all Real Madrid fans anyway, let's be honest. The stadium's going to be full because you're all Madridistas. And Oviedo traditionally was a place that sort of lent towards people being Real Madrid fans as well as being Oviedo fans and and Gijón and Sporting, more Barcelona fans. Just, you know, people having those two teams. But we're talking about two teams, Sporting and Oviedo, who have really massive, passionate fan bases as well.

21:35So it kind of jars with the concept of people having a second team as well. But it is something that has occurred. And let's see. I mean, we kind of promised, Sid, to our listeners that we wouldn't just bring everything back to Oviedo now that you're in the Primera División. And still, you know, every time we get...

21:50Phil Kitromilides:But to be fair, it was a concept that was applicable to Oviedo. And I hope at least that the Oviedo view of it helps to explain it. We haven't previewed anything. We've just gone off on a tangent. But there are some big games in La Liga. High promotion, to give it its official name. A couple on Friday, Alba, Sete, Mirandes, Córdoba, Castellón. Then on Saturday, you've got those big games. Deportivo La Coruña, Sporting, Quijón. Saragoza, Valladolid. Málaga, Granada. Then on Sunday, you've got Ceuta, from the tiny Spanish enclave in mainland Africa, hosting Huesca. Ceuta have lost all their games so far.