The long walk home

0:07Hello everyone and welcome to this week's edition of the Spanish Short World Podcast. I'm Phil Kitromilides, Sid Lowe is with me. Hello Sydney.

0:15Phil Kitromilides:Good morning Philip. You alright? Yeah, not too bad thank you. How are you? Good, good. All good my friend. Have you recovered from your long walk home? Oh it was so long. It was such a long walk home. We were both at the Copa del Rey final on Saturday night at the Estadio de la Cartuja in Seville. We will get into the game in just a moment. But if you want, we can just kick off right off the back and start ranting about what a ridiculously bad place it is to host the cup final. There is no real public transport there. There's no real buses. There's no metro. Cars can't really get there. Taxis don't drop you that close.

0:51There aren't any taxis anyway. so at 1am I had to walk 6.2 kilometers back to the hotel um which I was quite pleased I did it in in quite a quite a good time to be fair but it's very bad place and everybody was just completely flabbergasted at how bad the organization was again when I tell you that my Greek colleagues my Greek colleagues couldn't believe how badly organized it is and when Greeks are telling you is badly organized, if you let me. That's telling you something. So, yeah. And this happens every year as well. Yeah, I mean, this isn't new. This isn't new.

1:28Phil Kitromilides:That's the amazing thing about it. It isn't new. And it happens every single time. You were about an hour and a half ahead of me, I think, in terms of leaving the stadium. And I got lucky. Me and a colleague literally kind of flagged down a van driving out the stadium and said, listen, can you please take us to the city? Hitchhiking. I mean sort of as it turned out bizarrely one of the people in the van was actually someone I know um from back in the day who works for media pro and he was like wow how are you and so so we got to lift some of the way back into the city fortunately yes um anyway world's smallest violin and that I know no but for a lot of fans as well that's the thing and you know what I saw like some like how can I put this not very mobile Basque grannies with like a walking stick and like So I'm hobbling.

2:16I was thinking, wow, you are struggling. How are you going to get back, Abuela? You are in trouble. So, yeah. And, like, young kids as well. Super late. Yeah, it's not ideal. Really not ideal.

2:27Phil Kitromilides:It's a brilliant city in terms of the pre-match atmosphere. It's a great place for fans to be gathering. But then when you do the actual stadium bit, it really doesn't work very well at all. I was thinking, like, in a very, very, very, like, off chance that, you know, Ryo ever get to a final here, bringing my son. It's not ideal. It's not ideal. There were loads of kids. Yeah. Yeah. You have to find it. I have a colleague who works for one of the, well, actually works for one of the big national sports papers, but he's the Svill correspondent. He goes the night before. He knows it's sort of a secret place and leaves the car parked there the night before.

3:03Phil Kitromilides:Oh, right. Because it's the only way. Yeah. Anyway, so that was the Copa del Rey final. It finished Atletico Madrid 2, Real Sociedad 2 after extra time with La Real winning 4-3 on penalties. we'll discuss that game in just a moment I should remind you that we've got a live show coming up in London on Friday by the time this podcast comes out I can't actually guarantee there are any tickets left I think there were literally two or three tickets left, it's at the Fox on the Green Pub on Upper Street in Islington on Friday, 6.30pm looking forward to seeing quite a few of you there so that should be good fun, the link is in the pod description if you want to try and get some tickets, we're also over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP which is where we do our best work Sid I think that's where we do the really good stuff It's where we do our listeners best work because that Tuesday podcast with the Q &A our listeners produce fantastic questions which get semi-decent answers at times Yes, occasionally above average answers so if that sounds like something you'd be willing to pay just€4.75 a month for you get the bonus podcast as well on a Thursday Q &A pod.

4:13You get the TSFP diary, the TSFP newsletter. There's no newsletter this week because there wasn't any La Liga, but there will be. And yeah, loads and loads and loads of extra content over at patreon.com forward slash TSFP. And that's the only place we're going to be podding all over the summer. All right, so let's talk about Real Sociedad winning the Copa del Rey. And let's start off by talking about Real Sociedad, I think, because we've, we spoke a lot, Sid about on the preview podcast and you know you did a tremendous interview with Rino Matarazzo for for ESPN and you know we'll talk about the game and we can talk about La Real as a team in just a second I just want to wax lyrical a little bit about this guy and about his story and about how this is like the culmination of someone and I know it sounds cheesy and corny but it's true someone who literally had a dream and did not give up on it like this guy got the degree from applied mathematics from an Ivy League university from Colombia, could have easily got into work in finance and made a lot of money.

5:15He said, no, I really want to be a footballer. Went and played third and fourth division football in Germany, just about eked out a career until the end of his 20s. Then he could have gone back and said, you know what? OK, let's make some money. And I was like, no, I want to coach. So he was a youth coach. He was an assistant coach. He made it to a head coach. He made it to La Liga. And now he's a Copa del Rey champion. This is a guy who has kept going for years and years and years because of love of the game, because of love of what he does. And like I said, it sounds corny, but I genuinely think that this is the example of what footballing, you know, passion for football is all about, Sid.

5:52Phil Kitromilides:Absolutely that. Absolutely that. Grew up in New Jersey, an Italian family. His mum and dad from the area quite near Naples, they were Maradona fans, they were Napoli fans. He grew up watching Maradona's Napoli, which to be honest, if you're going to get a passion for sport, it's a pretty good place to start, isn't it? And he always felt that playing football was part of, if you like, his Italian heritage, his kind of connection to a community, not just the Italian community, but the US community as well. And as a participation sport, of course, it's still pretty big, or even then was pretty big in the US, but not the big headline sports.

6:30Phil Kitromilides:He chased this dream. He went to Italy, having been promised a trial, didn't get that trial. He felt that he'd wasted almost a year being in Italy, but he was on his grandparents' farm up in the hills, not far from Napoli. Actually, at the top of the hill where he used to do his hill runs is the church where he got married. This was him pushing for this thing. He didn't get the trials he was told he was going to have with Salah Nadana, but he then got a trial with a third division team on the last day that they could have possibly signed him. The coach said, look, it's only one day. I can't really make a decision based on what I've seen on one day.

7:02Phil Kitromilides:I think you should go and play some regional football and maybe we can talk about it in the future. He goes back to the US. He then gets a call. He gets the offer to go and do some trials in Germany. He goes at a point in which people are saying, well, you know, you've got this degree. I mean, for what it's worth, we should say that he gets the degree, obviously, partly through the sports scholarship system in the US because he's a great football player and he plays for the university team. But he gets his degree in applied mathematics from Colombia. I mean, you know, this opens doors. He has offers to go and work in the city.

7:32Phil Kitromilides:He has offers to go and work in big banks. But he wants to chase football. He gets this opportunity to go and try out in Germany. And then even at the end of that, there's that chance to go back. I love this. Did you see it at the weekend? And Takekubo was asked about this after the Goblet Rave final. I just love the way he said it. He said he could have gone and worked in a bank for clever people. And he said he decided to carry on. It's a lovely way to put it. You're asked, moron. He said, un banco destos para listos. which I thought was a great way for one of those banks for clever people. But it's true.

8:04Phil Kitromilides:And then even then when he started... It's such a romantic idealised notion that this is what... Yeah, it is. Absolutely it is. And even when he starts coaching and at that point post-playing career, which he jokes about how bad a player he was, but you've still got to be brilliant to play third or fourth tier football because we're talking about possibly the most competitive and the most meritocratic industry there is in terms of trying to get a job in the entire world. I genuinely think that. I don't think there's a more competitive or meritocratic industry than trying to be a footballer in the world.

8:38Phil Kitromilides:I'd love people to come up with alternatives, by the way. That'd be fascinating to know if there is anything that competes with it on that. And then even then, so there's an opportunity to go back. He says, no, I'm going to try this coaching thing. But then the coaching thing, you don't get on courses. You don't get the opportunities. And there's a moment where he's not really making much of a living and he thinks, okay, I'm working at youth team coaching now. I'm helping the academy build a structure. Maybe I'll just settle for this. I'm quite comfortable. We've got a family. It'll be okay. His wife says, no.

9:07Phil Kitromilides:We keep going because this is what you have driven. This has been your dream. This is what you do. And even then, of course, talking to him after the game on Saturday night, there were moments when my wife said, you've got to keep going. We've had five years of living apart because of moving around, because of coaching, because, of course, you've got a son who's at school, got a year and a half left at high school to go. You've got to sacrifice an awful lot of things. And so for him to be there on Saturday night, I think it was 12 members of his family in the stands. His dad was there. His mum couldn't be.

9:37Phil Kitromilides:She was back in the US. But his wife and his son were there and lots of cousins and stuff. And I think it is. You're right. It can sound a little bit corny, but it's not. It's everything. This is what it's about. I mean, last night was the sort of final, well, not on Saturday night, That was the sort of the final scene in the Netflix series of Rino Matarazzo. You know, it starts in Bergen County, New Jersey as a boy and it ends winning the Copa del Rey final. So anyway, we've gone off a little bit. No, but we should do. And we should do because let's, should we go on to the less emotional part of it?

10:08Phil Kitromilides:Yeah. That's not about his journey and his journey is brilliant. And actually, I think it's true that for a lot of players who make it, the journey is for me the most fascinating thing. And also the thing that I think reconciles us with football as a kind of a human pursuit. It's what makes it wonderful. But should we go on to the sort of, if you like, the more purely footballing part of it? Let's look at the other part of the journey, which is the journey they've been on with him and the impact he has had on them. This isn't him turning up, getting a good team and winning a cup. This is him turning up, getting a very bad team.

10:37Getting a very underperforming. Yeah, getting a very good team that's massively underachieving.

10:41Phil Kitromilides:That's massively underachieving, yes. And where they were when they sacked Sergio Francisco, they were one point off relegation. By the time he took over, they were two points off relegation because they drew the next game under interim managers. Even at that point, the club was saying to him, you know, the Copa de Ré is the kind of thing that maybe can give us a lift emotionally. So there was a sense that we take the Copa de Ré seriously, even with the league form being bad. As it is, they're now in a position where they could compete for the fifth Champions League place, which, well, the fifth place, which we hope is the Champions League place.

11:12Phil Kitromilides:They've won the Copa de Ré. Bear in mind this, only the fourth in their entire history, only the fourth in their entire history, albeit it is true that it's the second in five years now, which is quite amazing as well. And we'll come on to those kind of questions in a minute. Change their mindset, change their dynamics, change the way they play. You listen to the president talk about him, you listen to the players talk about him, and they are absolutely enamored with him. There was something very interesting the president said. Just phenomenal. He's changed everything. And he said, and when I first met him, I didn't know about him.

11:42Phil Kitromilides:And he said, the only thing I have done as a president that's been good in this is I've listened to two men. I've listened to Eric Bretos, who's the sporting director, who told me to go for Matarazzo. And then I listened to Matarazzo. And he said, when you listen to Matarazzo, you're completely convinced. Yeah, he said he was blown away when he first heard him, you know, when he spoke to him. All right, so that's Rino Matarazzo, his story and what he's done with Real Sociedad. On the night, how much do you think that they deserve to win? I think they well I mean deserve is such a difficult word isn't it but I actually think they did deserve to win up to a point I certainly don't think we could say oh this was you know Atletico were desperately unlucky I think Atletico were unlucky-ish I was very interested in the way that the game swung and I think what Raul Sotidad kept swinging didn't it yeah I think what Raul Sotidad did was very very impressive kind of emotionally so they score after 13 seconds 14 seconds depends exactly when you stop the clock.

12:41Phil Kitromilides:I think as it crossed the line, it's still 13, but it doesn't matter, it's 14. Officially the fastest goal in Copa Re final history. Atletico Madrid haven't touched the ball from Rau Sofidad's kick-off. They go back to the goalkeeper, they go long. Atletico Madrid produce an amazing chain of errors. I can't remember who the first player is. I think it's now El Molina watches it just float over his head. I think Giuliano Simeone, who's behind him, doesn't expect him to let it go, so then doesn't react. The ball bounces over his head. The cross comes in with no real pressure on the crosser. The defender in the middle, which I think is Ruggieri, who has tracked Benyat and Barrenechea, doesn't really react.

13:23Phil Kitromilides:Barrenechea scores. The goalkeeper doesn't really react at first, and he sort of then scrambles and tries to dive, and it's in the net. Wow. And at that point, what I thought was interesting, and it might be that this is exaggerated because I was watching from behind that goal, was that I felt that Real Sociedad did quite a good job of alternating between waiting to counter-attack and going and putting the pressure on Atletico Madrid. And I thought they alternated between the two. And I thought Atletico didn't deal with it at all well. I thought Atletico's first half was really poor, with the exception of Luckman.

13:54Phil Kitromilides:And they were looking for him all the time. They were constantly looking for him. I mean, it was like they only had one pass. It was like, lads, give it to Luckman. And yet even then, not a huge amount came of that. he scores a very good goal and it's 1-1. But I felt that Atletico were really, really... I thought Real Sociedad had it very much under control in that first half. The second half, Atletico Madrid had loads more of the ball and I thought a bit more intent about them. But actually, really and truly, they didn't create a genuinely clear chance until they equalised. And that was in 84 minutes or 85.

14:27Phil Kitromilides:And it's a brilliant goal, by the way, from Julian Alibar. So I actually thought it had a really good game. Yeah, he did. Really good game. they score this goal there's six minutes plus added time left and they could have scored three more Atletico, they absolutely should have won it the Cardoso one and the the Baena one, the Baena one for me is even more I think Baena's offside then maybe yes, I suppose if it goes in then it gets checked and perhaps it doesn't count anyway the Cardoso one which is a fantastic save as well from Maredo, the goalkeeper who tips it wide and at that point you're thinking okay this is Atletico's now now here comes the swing and this is the bit that most impressed me about Real Sofidad they had six shots in the first nine minutes of extra time so having been under pressure having had the psychological impact of losing it with six minutes to go having them been on the edge of being beaten because they absolutely were on the edge of being beaten they then found this response and they found this response with Geddes having gone off with Oya Thabal having gone off I thought their changes were good ones um Kubo came on just before the very end of normal time and I thought he made a bit of a difference but as much as anything else with him coming on and I think it was Oscarsome came on about 10 minutes before that sort of 79 80 minutes roughly um when when they made those changes I thought it was a way of saying we're still going to play this you know and I thought for the first 10 minutes well nine minutes I just said it was six shots in nine minutes of extra I thought they were fantastic And I thought, wow, this is a real thing that says, this is a statement.

16:03Phil Kitromilides:Admittedly, it didn't happen. And then the game did drift a little bit towards penalties. And then you win on penalties. Do they deserve it? Well, I suppose whoever wins on penalties kind of deserves it. And the other team kind of doesn't deserve it. Shall we go back to giving credit to Rino Materazzo, who stuck with his cup goalkeeper, Unai Marrero, when he had Spain international Alex Ramiro on the bench. But he stuck with Marrero, who had been the hero in the last 16. They won a penalty shootout against Osasuna. He'd saved two penalties then. And he saves Atletico Madrid's first two penalties from Sorlo and Julian Alvarez.

16:38I mean, the one from Alvarez is a really brilliant save. The one from Sorlo is decent as well. But I think, you know, two really good stops from Unai Marrero, who is the hero and officially the man of the match, the MVP.

16:49Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, Unai Marrero has not played a single minute in La Liga this season. Who played the Copa del Rey. He missed actually a couple of the other game because he broke his jaw or his cheekbone, I think, and actually came back. He missed the quarterfinal and the first leg of the semifinal, came back for the second leg of the semifinal wearing a mask. You know, this whole idea of this kind of heroic image of him as well really plays into that. As you say, he'd been the hero already in the penalty shootout. His post-game interviews were really funny because he sort of didn't know what to say. Yeah, no, I don't know.

17:23Phil Kitromilides:Oh, wow. and he said I don't really know what's happened here tonight what's happened here tonight I don't understand this and there was a nice moment well a nice moment I also felt a slightly intrusive moment but you know we're all for the intrusive emotional moments at times like this where he does an interview in the car park with one of the radio stations and then the radio stations carry on videoing him after he's finished and he goes over to his mum and his girlfriend I think standing by the car and basically collapses and starts balling and it all comes out um which is which is sort of lovely i feel a little bit weird being intrusive on him but it's lovely as well um and he was he was fantastic he was also brilliant on crosses by the way every time i had to cross in he was so good on crosses and as i say that save from carroso i think is a outrageously good save because it's the speed of the hand it's the speed of the hand is so good I was behind that goal.

18:15Phil Kitromilides:I thought, goal? It's one of those where you think, it's done. And then suddenly this hand comes from nowhere. Yeah, got a fingertip to it. It wasn't actually given as a corner. No, no, he got away with it. Or maybe he would have liked a corner, because at least then people would have realised, yeah. Yes. So he was one of 15 Youth Academy players in the matchday squad for Real Sociedad. Ten played. It's amazing. Ten of them played, and a couple for the other team. Is that true? Yes. Yes. So you look at the starting 11 and it's five for Real Sociedad and then four come on as subs. And then you've got two, as you say.

18:53That's nine, not ten.

18:55Phil Kitromilides:Sorry, I've got it wrong then. It's six. Sorry, it's six at start and four come on as subs. Yes, six. And Atletico Madrid have, as you say, two. And that's the other part of this is the success of Fulvieta, the success of the structure at Real Sociedad. You know, the guy that scores the winning goal is actually, funny enough, one of, is the only of the Canteranos, I believe I'm right in saying this, the only of the 10 Canteranos who's not from Pusco. Yeah. He's from Logroño, which is not very far away. But he also had a sort of a slightly up and down season, I think started roughly half the games, Pablo Marin.

19:35Phil Kitromilides:I like the moment where, so Marrero makes a save and he goes up to him and he gives him a hug and says something to him. I actually asked post-game in the press conference, what did you say to him? He said, oh, I can't remember. I think I just said to be calm, but I gave him a big kiss on the cheek. I was like, okay, that helps. That always helps.

20:09honor to share no it's our honor it is our larger honor no really stop you can really feel the respect in this battle pick a meal to pick a side participate in mcdonald's while supplies last all right let's talk a little bit about uh atletico madrid because we focused on la real for the for the first part of the uh of the podcast um just monumentally disappointing for Atleti. This was a really, really viable opportunity for them to get some big domestic silverware. They haven't won this competition since 2013. They hadn't even been in the final. Winning this would guarantee that it is a very successful season for Atletico Madrid because anytime they win any silverware, it is a major achievement for Atleti because they know that they're always coming up against the monsters of Real Madrid and Barcelona.

21:01And now all their eggs are in the Champions League's basket, which is a difficult basket to win, if I absolutely slaughter the metaphor. But yeah, I mean, you could tell that they were pretty, pretty, I'm not going to say broken, but you know, the disappointment was clear, clear for all of the players and Simeone as well. He's got to try and G them up for the semi-final against Arsenal, Inshallah. Come on, Atleti. Please.

21:33Phil Kitromilides:No biased journalism here. With the Spanish World podcast, we support Spanish teams in Europe, right? Yes, you'd have definitely said the same thing if they were playing Spurs in the semi-final of the Champions League. Well, we played them earlier on and we knew what was going to happen there. Anyway, we digress. A number of players I felt underperformed from Atletico Madrid in the game. I thought, obviously, Antoine Griezmann was really, really good for the first 60 minutes or so. Luckman looked threatening and scored a really, really good goal. Giuliano Simeone was very, very quiet. We've spoken about Julian Alvarez being really good in the second half, taking the mantle on and being like, I'm going to make things happen.

22:19I wasn't overly convinced by the changes that Simeone made as well. What did you make of it all?

22:24Phil Kitromilides:Well, I mean, I'll start at the end there, your thing about the changes, because I was struck by that. And admittedly, in the chaos of the game itself and the chaos of the game when you're working, some of this sometimes washes over you. You have a feel for the game and you're not always clear about substitutions. So I actually went through yesterday and wrote down the substitutions because I was thinking, hang on, this didn't feel quite right. And, you know, so Atletico is a Saul off and Nico on 62, Almada and Baena on 70, Nal Molina and then Lengley. But it's Ruggieri and Lukman going off. Lukman going off was a bit of a surprise, but I guess that was possibly a physical thing.

23:00Phil Kitromilides:And Simeone said post-game that they'd paid for the effort made in the Barcelona game in the Champions League. Now, that can sound like an excuse, but I think there's an element. truth in it. There is, there is, there is. Yes. And not least, I mean, one of the reasons why I think there's an element of truth in it is actually you listen to Reus Othirad, you listen to, I think Matarazzo said it, and one of the players did, and I can't remember which player it was post-game. That was lovely, by the way. I really like this. And one of the beauties of a team winning the cup is that post-game, you hear from a lot of players because everyone's enthusiastic and excited.