TSFP Live in London 2026

13:42Sid Lowe:It's easy, isn't it? the two legends that define the Seville Derby are the two players who've played the most Seville Derbys, which is Jesus Navas and Joaquin. I mean, presumably Sid is going to tell us someone from the 1920s.

13:53Phil Kitromilides:Well, you know, I was going to tell you a story about someone from the 40s, but I wasn't going to tell you about someone from the 1920s, which is a guy called Francisco Antunes, who in 1945 moved from Betis to Sevilla. And the Betis fans tried to block him at the train station so he couldn't get on his train to go and sign the papers. Physically block him. Physically block him. They literally blocked the train station. they then did a whip round to try and pay him the money that it would take to stop him leaving but the thing that kind of sums it up and one of one of the arguments that you'll sometimes hear in civil is that this is a division based on social class now obviously those kind of arguments they stand up a little bit but they don't always stand up entirely but bear in mind that this we're talking about 1945 we're talking about the possibly the most famous of all of the i was going to say republican but actually straight out communist orators famously la passionalia who's living in exile in Moscow.

14:41Phil Kitromilides:And on Radio Moscow, describes this as another assault upon the proletarian by the oligarchy and by the bourgeoisie. So there you go.

14:49Sid Lowe:Only you, Sid. Only you, Sid, would take a La Liga show about derbies in that direction.

14:53Phil Kitromilides:And tell you about totalitarianism in the 1940s.

14:56Sid Lowe:Before we move on to a different derby, a tip if you're going to visit, if you're going to attend the Seville derby. Do not go in summer.

15:03Phil Kitromilides:Do not. Yeah, if the game is in June, if the game's at the very end of the season in June, yeah, it's probably not a great idea. It's probably not great in August. Actually, if you go in August, there'll be no one there. They'll all be in Cadiz. Because the one thing that the rest of Andalusia likes to remind Sevilla about is that you haven't got a beach. To which Sevilla says, yes, we have. We've got Cadiz. Which doesn't go down too well in Cadiz. But yeah, go. If you can go. Go in the spring as well. This is genuine. I promise I'm not making this up.

15:29Sid Lowe:Seville smells amazing in the spring.

15:32Phil Kitromilides:Absolutely amazing. Because all the orange blossom is out. And it's just a fantastic place to go in the spring. last week when I was it's true though isn't it I was literally just walking through the streets oh it smells so lovely oh this is amazing and then I stumbled into the Atletico Madrid sort of impromptu fan zone in the middle of the city and that did not smell amazing at all sweaty

15:53Sid Lowe:very sweaty so there we go that is the Seville Derby a brief overview because like we said there's loads of stuff we could talk about but we're going to move on to La Capital Madrid the Madrid Derby this is a derby a proper derby but it is slightly different to what we were talking about because it is not the same as the Seville derby if we're going to talk about a word to define this what would your word be I think I've got a good one what's your word to define it

16:26Phil Kitromilides:I think the word's changed over the years and I actually think some of the things that we're talking about with the Seville derby can be carried across to Madrid the idea of a social class division and all the rest of it and the idea of inequality until recently. No one, no city in world football, well, in European football has had two finalists in the Champions League. So I think the answer to this question in a word is elite. Ooh, okay. Go on. To define this, I would define this derby as fraternal because Atletico Madrid are, but not in a nice way, in a sibling. Brothers who hate each other.

17:04Sibling, yeah. Because Atletico Madrid are the smaller sibling, constantly competing with the bigger sibling, sometimes beating him up. And the bigger sibling is a little bit like, yeah, all right, whatever, okay, it's fine. It's fine.

17:18Phil Kitromilides:I'll tell you what, when I'm bigger than you, you're so going to get it. Not that I'm speaking from experience. Because I've been to this derby many, many, many times. And at the Calderon and then at the Metropolitano, it is fierce. They properly hate Real Madrid. and then I've been to it at the Bernabeu and it's been like, okay, yeah, you know, these guys are coming, all right, let's have a little derby, it's fine, oh, what?

17:41Sid Lowe:Yeah, it's also worth saying this derby feels different, I think, kind of internationally than it does in the city of Madrid because if you look at it from an international perspective around the world, of course, Real Madrid internationally have a much, much bigger fan base. In the city of Madrid, it's more even. It really is even. It doesn't feel like big and small, it feels like big and bigger. Well, yeah, big and bigger, okay, yeah. Is that the sequel to Dumb and Dumber?

18:06Because, like I said, you can go to the Bernabeu and you can get Atletico Madrid fans sitting next to Real Madrid fans and it's all right, it's fine. It's a bit like, OK, yeah, sit next to us, it's fine, OK. But vice versa at the Metropolitano would be... Not quite the same. Classic games, Sid. Classic games. I mean, there are so many. There are so many. There was a night in Lisbon.

18:30Phil Kitromilides:There was a night in Lisbon. And do you know what? I actually think, in a way, what I was inevitably going to do was talk about loads of things and say, but let's face it, it's the one in Lisbon. But you've gone straight to Lisbon, so let's face it, it's the one in Lisbon. And it's the one in Lisbon for loads and loads of reasons. And the fundamental one is... The 2014 Champions League final. The fundamental one is, here's two teams from the same city in Lisbon. Here's 70 ,000 people driving down the A5, crossing the border and going to Lisbon and being together. And actually, the atmosphere being fantastic and there being no trouble at all.

18:57Can you imagine that happening with any other cross-city rivalry? Well, Spurs and Arsenal went to Lisbon. But anyway, like any of them, you know, that would be horrible, really horrible. I probably would even go. But just imagine some of these rivalries, 70 ,000 people in the same city like that. It would be carnage, but it was nice.

19:16Sid Lowe:It actually was. Well, until the outcome for Atleti fans. I was going to say, I think of this for Atleti fans. Those of you here at Atleti fans will understand. I mean, just imagine your club losing the Champions League final to your closest rivals twice. in three years and both times in really quite painful circumstances the most painful circumstances possible in extra time and on penalties

19:39Phil Kitromilides:Right, so let's do the back story and let's do the unpacking thing again let's do the back story of this let's go to what Phil said at the start the idea of this being fraternal but one of them is very definitely the big brother and this is why some of the other games that we could have talked about for example the Copa de Raiffe final in 2013 which Atletico Madrid win at the Bernabeu in extra time against Real Madrid after 14 years well this is the thing so it's the first time they've beaten them since 1999 the previous time they've beaten them in 1999 they've been relegated anyway that you get a situation in which 25 games go by without them winning a derby they do come back up to the first division it takes them two years they do come back up to the first division the first game back they draw 2-2 with Mono Bordogos saving a penalty with his nose there's blood everywhere but he saved it with his nose he's very pleased for himself but they hadn't won in 25 games they'd lost 10 in a row and there was this feeling and this thing that you get of the idea of Atletico Madrid being cursed.

20:33Phil Kitromilides:They're el pupas, they call them, the kind of the accident-prone one, the cursed one. And basically, Real Madrid fans laugh at them. And they laugh at them for years. And then in 2013, they get in a Copa de Re final and they beat Real Madrid. In 2014, they win the league title. The curse is broken. We're going to Lisbon. We're going to win the European Cup final against Real Madrid. Oh. And that's why I think that final is so big because you've got an Atletico Madrid team that, first of all, because you've got this final that's absolutely elite. The two biggest teams in Europe facing each other and they're from the same city.

21:07Phil Kitromilides:Then you've got the idea that this is the end of the curse. We've broken it. But then the curse comes back again because you lose it in extra time. You're really unlucky. Two years later, it happens on penalties. I was working for Real Madrid TV at the time of both of these finals and the 2014 final, obviously, I was with my colleagues. And before Sergio Ramos scores that goal, they were literally saying, this is the worst night in Real Madrid history. This is the worst night in Real Madrid history. Well, let's put the Real Madrid context in. So we've given you the Atletico Madrid context. The Real Madrid context is at this point, Real Madrid are still looking for, I mean, it's funny now.

21:38La décima. They're looking for the 10th European Cup.

21:40Phil Kitromilides:I mean, I don't know what they're on now, 75 or something. They're looking for the 10th European Cup and it's become an obsession. It's been 14 years, which feels like an eternity for Real Madrid. My God, we're not going to, this 10th European Cup instead, a week before Atletico Madrid won their 10th league title. This is all going wrong. and you go into the last minute and they're going to lose the European Cup final. To these guys. To these guys. And then Sergio Ramos does. And then they don't. Sergio Ramos does, yeah. Other classic games? Well, I mean... Briefly? Within all of this, obviously you've got loads of other ones.

22:14Phil Kitromilides:You've got the two European Cup finals. You've got the 4-0 for Atletico Madrid which seem to reinforce this idea that they're really competing now. And I remember walking down out of the old Calderon and you used to have to go out in the corners and suddenly there was this big crowd. no one was moving and it took ages to get out of the stadium in that corner and to go round and it was because everybody had stopped to take a photograph of the scoreboard because genuinely everyone was like take a photograph this is never going to happen again and that's the thing it's about that and it's about the fact that it kept being really really cruel but in the end Athletic Conference broke the curse but then when it got to Europe they didn't

22:48Sid Lowe:and they still can't The other game I was going to mention was going back to 1994 a brief word about this chap

22:56Phil Kitromilides:Raúl González Blanco, who was in the Atletico Madrid youth system until the genius president, Jesus Hill, said, what do we need a youth system for? So he crossed the city, played for Real Madrid, became arguably the best player in their history. I say arguably because Cristiano Ronaldo, Alfredo Stefano, a handful of others would challenge that, but came to symbolise everything that Real Madrid are supposed to be, and yet he'd come from Atletico Madrid.

23:20Sid Lowe:And November 1994, his second game for Real Madrid, His second game for Real Madrid is a derby.

23:25Phil Kitromilides:Honestly, you cannot believe how brilliant he was at 17.

23:27Sid Lowe:His first game at the Bernabeu, he scores his first goal for Real Madrid. If you go watch the goal, that's not a player scoring his first goal. That's a player scoring his hundredth goal, the way he takes it.

23:36Phil Kitromilides:As you say, it's his second game. The previous game was against Thalag Otha, and he'd actually missed a load of sitters. He played quite well, but missed a load of sitters. And Jorge Valdana, who was the coach of Real Madrid at the time, and after whom Raul's first son was named, had spoken to Raul in the build-up to that game and said, I'd like to play you but I'm a little bit, I'm not sure what to do because you're only 17 and so on and Raul turned around to him and said if you want to win, play me. If you don't don't worry about it. And so Balan thought, we'll play him then.

24:07Sid Lowe:And actually in that first game he did look a bit nervous but in the second game against Atletico he was phenomenal. And the other game I know you wanted to touch on, Sid, I think might be your pick. I think it's my favourite, which isn't to say

24:17Phil Kitromilides:I think the most symbolic without doubt is that first Champions League final but my favourite I think is is one that brings all of these threads together brilliantly. And that is the last ever European game played at the Vicente Calderon. And it's another European night and it's another opportunity. Atletico Madrid maybe can break the curse domestically, but they can't do it in European football. They lose the first game 3-0 to Real Madrid. They go back to the Calderon, last European night at the Calderon, unless they win, of course. They go 2-0 up and they are absolutely battering Real Madrid.

24:45Phil Kitromilides:Two things happened. And I talk about this a lot, so apologies if you've heard this before. but Luka Modric basically decides I've got this and basically Luka Modric spends 20 minutes playing on his own give me the ball, yeah, run around a bit, calm this down, it's fine but one of the most amazing performances I've ever seen and then Karim Benzema does that ludicrous piece of skill that leads to the Isco goal and that's the end of it now why do I like this game? because with about 20 minutes to go and it, you know, the risk of being sort of overblown here, it becomes, it's poetic with about 20 minutes to go the heavens open and it starts to rain.

25:20Phil Kitromilides:And it rains like you have never seen before. It was like a biblical... Unreal! And that stadium wasn't particularly good on roofs. So the rain is pouring through, no one moves. Real Madrid go through and their fans are celebrating. Atletico Madrid go out and their fans are celebrating as well. Before the game, there's a banner and this brings this whole thing together, this idea that, you know, Real Madrid are the power, we're the people. Now again, like lots of identities, that's a little bit of a myth, but it's there and it's powerful. And before the game, their banner says, proud of not being like you.

25:51Phil Kitromilides:And when they get knocked out, this is, if you like, the embodiment of that. They stay in the stadium and they celebrate the Atletico Madrid fans. We're proud of what this team has done. We've taken the fight to, let's go to your phrase again, to the big brother, to the bully in the family. We've taken it to them and we've given them a bloody nose. Yeah, we've lost, but look at us celebrating this. And yeah, there's a pocket of them selling rating up there as well, but this is what makes us different and this is what we love and this is the way that we want to say goodbye to the Calderon. It was absolutely phenomenal.

26:21Sid Lowe:And essentially, I was reading what you wrote that night and you asked the question because they were moving to the Metropolitano. You wrote, will things ever be the same again?

26:29Phil Kitromilides:And what Simeone said was it'll be the same people even if it's a different stadium. I think it's taken a while. I think they're getting there.

26:35Sid Lowe:Yeah.

26:35Phil Kitromilides:It's not the same, but I think they are getting there. And it was, you know, look, I've always liked this, the road that leads to the Calderon. And I always felt that this embodied Atletico Madrid's identity and this idea that they were cursed and this idea that they weren't going to beat Real Madrid and that they were downtrodden. What's it called, Sid? It's called Melancholic's Way.

26:55Sid Lowe:What a brilliant name. Melancholic's Way.

26:59Phil Kitromilides:Pissed off Avenue. Fucking annoyed street. It's brilliant. Big game for them on Wednesday. Yes. In the Champions League semifinals.

27:10Sid Lowe:And it is all or nothing. The season rests on that. For both teams. For both teams. very much for both teams.

27:18Phil Kitromilides:Hang on, have you given up already?

27:20Sid Lowe:In the Premier League? Yeah, kind of. But let's see.

27:23Phil Kitromilides:Spanish football podcast. Anyway, should we choose a Madrid Derby legend? Yes. But, you know, Derby legend. You want a Derby legend? Right, well, again, we're going to talk about identity and I realise that I'm... I feel a bit like this isn't entirely fair that I'm giving you the Atletico Madrid version of history. But in a way, Real Madrid's version of history doesn't need all this narrative. It's like, there's the European Cup. Atletico Madrid are the ones that kind of have to build a story. And so for me, there isn't anyone. I mean, you could talk about Simeone. You could certainly talk about Luis Arragan.

27:53Phil Kitromilides:There isn't anyone like Fernando Torres. Not least because Fernando Torres expressed this idea so well. I remember going to an interview when he was 18. And he was just bringing it all out. Oh, yeah, you know, Real Madrid fans, they're prisoners of a result. We're prisoners of a feeling. They don't feel their football. We love our football. If they didn't win, they wouldn't bother turning up. We do. We go down. Bear in mind that they'd just been down to second division. and Torres had helped bring them back up to the first division. You know, we fill the stadium every week in the second division.

28:19Phil Kitromilides:If they went to the second division, they wouldn't have any fans. He's 18 and he's giving the whole, look at that lot over there thing. And it was a real kind of embodiment. And this is why they loved him so much, because he embodied everything. And he also embodied their change. So he leaves them to go to Liverpool because he basically decides, look, this is never going to happen with Atletico Madrid. He'd never beaten Real Madrid when he left. He comes back eight years later. He's been in the city three days. He plays Real Madrid in the Copa del Rey and he scores and they knock Real Madrid out.

28:50We've got some lists here of potential legends and they're all Atletico Madrid players. Well, apart from Raul. Who was Atletico Madrid. Which fits with this because, if you like,

29:01Phil Kitromilides:the storyline of this derby is kind of written by the losers. This idea, history is written by the winners. But in a way, it's not. The storyline is sometimes written by, I suppose, by those who need a storyline rather than just a picture of a cup. A recommendation for the Madrid derby. We do get asked quite a lot how to get tickets at the Bernabeu. It's actually gotten a lot harder since they turned it into a shiny spaceship. A lot of people want to go there.

29:26Sid Lowe:Yeah, and of course the capacity didn't increase. And the capacity did not increase, really. So it's tough. It's tough to get tickets for that. The Metropolitano is more accessible. Yeah, and if you can go, like we said, it's not the Calderon, but it's great. And we've said it might be the noisiest stadium. Yeah.

29:41Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, it holds the sound in really, really well. it's very noisy we mentioned this briefly the other day in the pod that they it was kind of a very modern stadium with quite a lot of space between seats and they filled in all the spaces they kind of squeezed everyone in and I think that's been really good for them anyway a piece of advice for this derby

29:57Sid Lowe:recommendation

29:59Phil Kitromilides:you know what the funny thing the problem with the new stadium is it's not actually a place where you could recommend somewhere to go before the game it doesn't really have which new stadium? the Metapolite Down right the Bernabeu is where it still is where it always was obviously and so that does a little bit I don't have a recommendation How about my piece of advice

30:16Sid Lowe:Is not advice for you or for us But it's a bit more generic It's be careful what you wish for Because what's the one thing here We haven't talked about The very very famous banner That the Real Madrid fans held up Aimed at Atletico Which you can see there And it says looking for a decent Or dignified opponent for a decent derby Wanted Because they felt they hadn't got one because, as you said, they went so many years without losing.

30:43Phil Kitromilides:What you can't quite see is the top left corner is the symbol of Silna Mano, which is a kind of a loot-style magazine, a classified adverts magazine. So this was done as a classified advert looking for a worthy rival for a decent derby. And Rathonaki basically means, you know, ask here.

31:00Sid Lowe:Yeah, and they asked for it, and they got it. They asked for it, and they got it.

31:03Phil Kitromilides:The thing is, of course, they would argue, yeah, we did get it, but then we went to Lisbon. So this whole thing comes full circle with this image, which is perfect. I mean it is a great fixture also definitely worth visiting but my recommendation is go to it at the Metropolitano rather than the Bernabéu to get the full Derby hatred

31:19Sid Lowe:because it's angrier because it feels like more there's more on the line alright let's move on from the capital we'll go to the magical mystical land of Galicia there we go which is how we always introduce any sort of segment about Galicia

31:37Phil Kitromilides:but it's also how they do You think it's a cliche and then you ask a Galician to explain it and they'll say the same thing. A word to describe the Galician Derby, Celta Vigo against Deportivo La Coruña, by the way. A word to describe the Galician Derby, Sid. We've got Salty.

31:57Sid Lowe:Yeah, I like Salty because it's the Atlantic, it's the waves crashing in. You've got Depos, Ria Thor Stadium literally right next to the beach. Foggy. Wet. Wet. Are we selling it?

32:10Phil Kitromilides:I'm going to justify that in a minute, by the way. Witches. Oh, I'm going to justify that in a minute. We've got witches here. Witches. Witches. The idea of Galithia being mystical is this idea that there's spirits, that there's witches and wizards and what would you call it? Kind of fairies, I suppose. A fairy that doesn't sound like fairy. What's the word I'm looking for? Like a little spirit. Like a pixie? A pixie. I don't know. We've gone off on it. But this idea that they're there, obviously it's the Atlantic coast, it's a community, a region, that looks to the sea. And that brings up all sorts of characteristics, the idea of...

32:48Phil Kitromilides:Ocean. Ocean is the word. Yeah, exactly. It looks out to the ocean and there is nothing. And the idea that they live off that economically, that they live off that in terms of the creation of a character, an identity, a personality, it's all about the sea, which brings in all sorts of notions of death, brings in all sorts of notions of being weather-beaten, brings in all sorts of notions of a kind of... People talk a lot about Mourinho, the idea that you're longing, longing for something that's been lost.

33:14Sid Lowe:Of course, Galicians were the explorers and the travellers. Absolutely.

33:18Phil Kitromilides:And, you know, what do Argentinians call all Spaniards? Gallegos. Because they were traditionally all Galicians.

33:24Sid Lowe:If you say as well, of course, the first two derbies on our list were... I had a word, by the way. Go on, Kitcher, go on. I had a word. Go on. Oh, distance. Well, there you go. That's exactly what I'm saying, because the first two derbies were city derbies. Yeah. Within a city. This is two different cities. And they're quite a long way apart as well. 150 kilometres between these two cities, Vigo and La Coruña.

33:43Phil Kitromilides:Have you ever tried to get around Galicia? Because that's not 150 kilometres on a straight line motorway, nice and easy there in an hour. Yeah. That is... Are we nearly there yet? Yeah. It really is. It's not that easy to do. It's like Arsenal and Lincoln or something. It's just like they're so far away. And yet it's fierce. Arsenal and Lincoln. How far is it from London to Lincoln? I don't know. I just made it up, but you know, whatever. It's just Arsenal somewhere north. Is that because we were talking about Imps and you've just got all Lincoln on us? Very good. But yes, so they're from the same region, but they're very far apart.

34:16And they absolutely bloody hate each other. But at the same time, there is this sense of Gallego-ness. Yes. Galician-ness. Definitely. Which is highlighted pre-match.

34:30Sid Lowe:Oh, yes. You mentioned the singing of the, you loved this, the singing of the anthem. Yeah. I mean. Collectively. We couldn't get a clip of it. But before the game, before the Galician derby, they sing the Galician anthem, like the regional anthem, all together. Everybody together in the stadium, away fans and home fans, like, we are all Galician. That is exactly how it goes, by the way. Accurate translation. And then it starts. They would not be at all offended to think that they're... So how even or uneven is this derby? We said the Seville derby is even. and we said the Madrid derby is big and bigger.

35:07Sid Lowe:What's this? Right.

35:10Phil Kitromilides:Well, at the moment, obviously, it's uneven because Celta are in the first division and Depo aren't. There's been moments in history where Celta have been bigger. But then, of course, you come into the late 90s or the mid to late 90s and then Depo winning the league in 2000. Playing in a Champions League. Playing in a Champions League. And that is a particularly Galician story as well. A president who takes on the club, who builds a club who really and truly is spending money they haven't got in an era in which there's a lot of money coming into Galicia for all sorts of fairly nefarious reasons that is kind of this idea of an emergence of Depor as a powerhouse that they previously hadn't been which I think plays into if you like the irritation with them from Vigo there's also a socio-cultural thing here and again I keep saying it these identities sometimes are not entirely true but it doesn't mean that people don't buy into them the myths matter even when they're myths and the famous phrase is that while Vigo works, Acorunio enjoys itself or relaxes.

36:10Phil Kitromilides:This idea that one's a service industry, the other is much more an industry industry based on the shipyards, based on the fishing. And fishing in Galicia, by the way, isn't fishing the way you imagine it. It's shell fishing. And there's two fundamental ways of doing it. One of these platforms that are out in the sea and the other are people literally wading into the sea themselves, into the Rias Brassers, into the low rivers to pick sea shellfish. Like Barry Aspas' mum. Like Barry Aspas' mum. And it's incredibly dangerous. And it's genuinely dangerous. And it's part of their identity, this idea that you are taking a risk all time.

36:43Phil Kitromilides:There's a reason why this is known as the coast of death. And that is part of that kind of idea of mysticism and spirits and everything that goes with it.

36:52Sid Lowe:You mentioned the great man, icon of this podcast, Barry Aspas. Maybe we don't talk about him as much as we used to a year or two ago. He doesn't play as much as he used to. He's pictured here. I think we've got some clips of him scoring twice for Celta in a 3-1 win away at Depor back in 2017. Celta won 3-1, I think, at Ria Thor. As you said, Sid, not a derby that can currently take place given that Depor are chasing promotion and Celta are in the top flight.

37:20Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, and Barry Aspas, who said that one of his favourite moments growing up was from a derby. he didn't choose a goal he didn't choose an amazing save he didn't choose a fantastic win he chose the moment that Wagner Love who played for Celta at the time booted Diego Tristan up in the air down by the corner flags this is one of my favourite moments he also said in an interview he said I think I'd have a real problem if I had a girlfriend she supported Depor I think I'd have to end it there I can't fault his commitment to the Celta cause

37:57Sid Lowe:That's Barry scoring a very tasty free kick.

38:00Phil Kitromilides:I mean, he's proper good, isn't he, Barry? I know everyone in England laughs at him because he took a corner badly once. But I think he's brilliant.

38:07Sid Lowe:Before we make him our legend, did you find a classic game?

38:12Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, I think we did. And this is where I'm going to justify my choice of words. 2013. Six years since the two teams have played each other in the first division. and so there's footage of the Celta de Vigo fans in the stadium. The bus turns up and there's a picture on the side of the bus and it's an advert and it just says for sale and they're taking the piss out of the fact that Deportivo are in financial crisis and looking for a buyer and the cameras focus on a fan up in the stands. He's got his hood down like this and he's giving it large to... What is he doing? Well, he's grabbing his crotch and he's telling them to come and he's telling them to come and he's being quite rude.

38:53Phil Kitromilides:and he's being really, really aggressive.

38:54Sid Lowe:Whoa, whoa, whoa, all the rest of it.

38:56Phil Kitromilides:Anyway, all this would be, well, I was going to say it would be fine. Maybe we shouldn't condone this kind of thing. We should condone this kind of thing. That's not what we want to see, Sid. It's not what we want to see. No, definitely not, definitely not. All of this would be sort of fine if it wasn't for the fact that the person doing this was Hugo Maillot. Hugo Maillot is a Celta player. He was suspended. He was there with the Iago Aspas fan club on the day in which the Iago Aspas had been sent off and he's the one giving it large to the fans from Deportivo. Celta actually lose that game. Yagwas is sent off.

39:29Phil Kitromilides:This footage comes out. They realise it's Ugo Mayo who thinks that no one realises. His phone has run out of battery, so people are sending him a message saying, stop it, stop it, you're going to get us in trouble. He's like, shit, he didn't find out to the following day. And to come full circle as to why I describe this derby as wet, one of the Celta players is asked about this after the game. He said, yeah, we're really, really disappointed. We're really, really annoyed. but this sometimes is what happens. If you go to bed with children, you wake up covered in piss. Wow. What does that mean?

40:02Phil Kitromilides:Well, I suppose it means that if you take the risk of, you know, having children, immature people on the pitch in the stands, you're going to, you know, you're going to end up covered in piss. Okay. I like it. I, yes. I, yeah, no, that one of my stories is terrific and the footage, which I actually tried to find the footage and it seems to have been deleted online. You can't find it online but I remember the images. I was living in Spain at the time and it was pretty funny. So yeah. What are we recommending? Well, at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious we're recommending you that you eat seafood and good seafood because it's Galicia.

40:42Phil Kitromilides:That's what you're going to do, isn't it?

40:43Sid Lowe:Eat fresh seafood as close to the sea as physically close to the sea as you can be. You mean don't get it from Gamber Fresh? No, not your favourite frozen food emporium, Sid. But no, like literally, you know, right next to a port.

40:55Phil Kitromilides:Well, I mean, let's go to Acaruna then, shall we? And say that if you ever, I don't know if some of you will have seen pictures of Ria Thor. Some of you will have been to Ria Thor. It is on the beach. It's absolutely fantastic. I think that, Rating Santander, and I'm struggling to think of it. Oh, and Gijón as well, right on the beach. There's something magical about a stadium right on the beach. And actually their stadium is built in a way that makes it look like a ship. it's fantastic

41:18Sid Lowe:did we pick so is is Barry Aspas our legend do we have do we pick a Depo legend Sid there are so many candidates

41:24Phil Kitromilides:well yeah I mean obviously with Depo you kind of feel like you've got to go to the super Depo era and I think no one defines him better than Fran but we've been trying to look at legends that sort of somehow define the derby and Fran is too gentle to ever get involved in that but he represents symbolises Depo better than anybody else a guy who played with him in the third tier all the way up to the first tier very very quiet can barely get a sentence out, or at least back then he could barely get a sentence out. You listen to him now and he does. But he just... And in a way that kind of embodies the idea that the Galitians are kind of a bit mysterious.

41:57Phil Kitromilides:They don't give you a clear answer. There's the cliche that says you see a Galitian on the stairs, you don't know if he's going up or down, that he'll answer a question with a question because he'll be evasive. And that was kind of Fran as a player. Okay. His son's decent. His son is quite decent. Yes. Nico Gonzalez.

42:13Sid Lowe:One other player as well. He's pictured here on the left a man who played for both teams, Pajinho, played for Celta, Depo and Real Madrid in the middle.

42:21Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, and he'd been top scorer with Real Madrid in Spain. He always claimed that he didn't make it to the 1950 World Cup because he was too left wing. He was a reader of... Not on the pitch. Not on the pitch, he was centre-forward, I'd be very good. He was a reader of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and, you know, just this kind of intellectual character. and he always claimed that the reason he didn't play for Spain was that he was in the Spain team in 1948. Obviously, we're talking about the relatively early years of the dictatorship and at half-time in a game, a general comes into the dressing room.

42:58Phil Kitromilides:He doesn't know the general's name, although he finds out later. And the general basically says, what you lot need is more bollocks and more Spanishness. And of course, this guy can't quite help himself and he starts to laugh and he doesn't play for the national team again. So don't laugh! stop it

43:15Sid Lowe:I think he's still top 10 all time La Liga goal scorers or certainly top 15 he's up there he's right up there yeah I think you might be right yeah okay so those are potential derby legends for the Galician derby and by the way let's hope that we get more Galician derbies very soon if Depp will go up fingers crossed because it is a it is a it is a it is very good and also it would be quite nice

43:38Phil Kitromilides:just to see Depp in the first division wouldn't it certainly would it's where they belong alright let's go to another derby maybe a controversial selection here or maybe it isn't, the Valencian derby the Valencian derby there are many derbies from the region of Valencia whereas Elche are there, Villarreal are there Castellón are there Valencia and Levante are the two clubs from the city of Valencia, we were actually sort of, we were thinking do we even put this in? Is this worthy of TSFP

44:12Sid Lowe:defining derbies. But why the doubts? Because it's not great. It's not great derby. Or because it's too uneven? Is that the... Yes. It's not great derby. And it should be because Valencia is Spain's third city. The city has, you know, loves its football. Levante are smaller than Valencia, but still have a fantastic little stadium, terrific number of supporters. This should be bigger than it is. And Valencia are a giant club. with what might be the best stadium in Spanish football in Mestalla. And yet this derby just feels meh. So what's the word? Meh.

44:49Phil Kitromilides:Well, that's why the word, you can choose two words that mean completely opposite things. And I'm going to have to cheat again. One of those words is close. And the other of those words is, I don't know if this is, can I make this one word? It's far away. Because that's the thing. The distance between these two teams is gigantic. And yet it is the closest derby in the whole of Spain. Are you ready for this? As the crow flies from Valencia's ground to Levante's ground, 2.4 kilometres. It's the closest in the whole of Spain. It's 3.2 kilometres in Seville. It's 4.2 kilometres between Getafe and Leganes, although I challenge you to try and walk it.

45:25Phil Kitromilides:Don't, don't, do not walk it. It's a simple motorway. Yeah, exactly. It would be great fun to try it. Well, no, it would actually be lethal to try it. 5 kilometres between, 5.3 between Barcelona and Espanyol. These guys are the closest. but in terms of the level of the two teams they might well be the furthest apart

45:42Sid Lowe:so if and when Valencia move if they do leave Mestalla will it still be the closest?

45:47Phil Kitromilides:no I don't think so but the new Mestalla is not that far I don't know what the distance will be you've caught me there Al I wish you told me you were going to ask that I don't look it up for you I was impressed so I think that's it I'm going to level with you I messaged a colleague of mine who's a Levante historian to say to him you know what would you choose if you had to choose Levante historian and that is an interesting job. Don't be nasty. No, I'm doing this. I said, what would you choose? And, you know, we're talking about this isn't a very good darby. He quite literally sent back a message which suggested a nil-nil draw.

46:21Phil Kitromilides:Now, admittedly, it could have been like a really feisty nil-nil draw with loads of people sent off. It wasn't. It was a nil-nil draw in week 37 when Levantis survived. There's another game in week 37, which is far better. Levanti win 4-2 against Flensia in 2007. that's also week 37 I was going to say

46:39Sid Lowe:the club I've got here no the club I've got here I think it's another 4-2 but not that 4-2 this is Levante 2 Valencia 4 from 2019 in which I think Levante went 2-0 up and still somehow managed to managed to blow it

46:53Phil Kitromilides:there's a little bit of a parallel with what Phil was saying about the Madrid derby obviously as they say in Spanish salvando las distancias right it's not quite the same but which is that this is a derby that exists much much more for Levante fans than it does for Valencia fans in terms of the idea that, well, you know, this is really faced... No, it's not. And Valencia fans will go, Levante, little Levante, and Levante will want to give a little bit back. But there is also, reading through some of the press reports of that 4-2, not this one, the other one, sorry, you know, coordination and all that, that Levante win, there was a feeling that actually maybe this party happened because there was kind of a bit of a gentleman's agreement and that they shouldn't go down, they should win this game.

47:37Phil Kitromilides:At least there was no real edge to it. And I think that's part of it. Should we give them some amazing statistics? I mean, the most significant one of all, the one that sort of defines it, is that Levante have never finished ahead of Valencia. Never. Never. There is a social difference in theory. Now, again, I'm a bit uneasy about this, but in theory, the social difference, Levante's kind of story is about emerging from the port area of the city, being the kind of the ship workers being the people who are down on the docks being that kind of hardcore maritime working class identity which Valencia isn't.

48:12Phil Kitromilides:The thing is Valencia is such a big club that the idea that Valencia are anything other than kind of a cross class club is just nonsense and there's plenty of working class people there but the storyline if you like sort of says yeah we're the ones from down by the port. There was actually a nice article in one of the papers a couple of years ago and it said it did it by postcode where the fans are from in Valencia. I think it was, I think I did write it down, but I haven't got it in front of me now. I think it was 32 postcodes in Valencia and there were more Valencia fans in 30 of the 32 and only two more for Levante.

48:47Phil Kitromilides:Right next to the stadium. Well, the port area and the stadium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a bit uneven, but yeah, it's a derby that we felt we had to stick in because it is from Spain's third city.

49:00Sid Lowe:A legend or two?

49:03Phil Kitromilides:Well, I wanted to include Juan Fran just because I could then give you the useless fact that I love about Juan Fran. Which one? He's a qualified hairdresser. Juan Fran Torres? Yeah. Is he? No, not that Juan Fran. Sorry, the other Juan Fran. The one who played for Spain. Played for Spain, played for both of these two teams and cuts hair.

49:19Sid Lowe:There you go. That makes him a legend. He's in? Derby legend. Oh, yeah. Kitra, you were saluting... I was saluting El Comandante. El Comandante Morales. It definitely helps to have a good nickname, doesn't it? Yes. to achieve legendary status. Yes. El Comandante Morales is still there.

49:34Phil Kitromilides:What I love about his nickname is that there is literally no reason for it.

49:39Sid Lowe:He gave it to himself.

49:40Phil Kitromilides:He gave it to himself and it stuck.

49:42Sid Lowe:Did he really? Yeah.

49:44Phil Kitromilides:One day he decides to slew. That's a bit much.

49:46Sid Lowe:His dad's an electrician.

49:50Phil Kitromilides:His mum's a cleaner. There's no military background in the family. There's no reason for this. He hasn't been in the army. He didn't even make it to professional football until he was 24. He was playing football, playing in Padla in Madrid, little town outside Madrid he doesn't make it to the first division until he's 27 he has one game where he feels really that there's a lot of pressure on him he scores a goal he salutes he calls himself a commandante and it sticks and I promise you it sticks like properly sticks no one I would be willing to bet that half of Spain doesn't know what his first name is they think his first name is commandante it doesn't help

50:20Sid Lowe:that the name on the back of his shirt has had initials which are not

50:25Phil Kitromilides:his name a lot of players do that drives me mad so he is Comandante Morales he is a bit of a legend he left Levante they weren't very happy and there's a nice quote from him when he left he said look they'd gone down he has a chance to leave to go to Villarreal and he said for the first time in 11 years the time since he's been at the club I decided to think of myself and not Levante it didn't really work that what did work was coming back and getting them promoted again and there's an amazing bit of radio footage I absolutely love this the night that Levante get promoted back to the first division.

51:01Phil Kitromilides:They get him live on the radio and he's in the stadium and they've got a reporter in the stadium. They've got a reporter back in Valencia. I can't remember where they were playing, away from home. Back in Valencia with the fans celebrating. And the reporters, they decide, well, tell you what, we'll just put him on with the fans.

51:14Sid Lowe:Oh, Morales, I love you. Oh, man, I love you. Oh, where are you? We're at the square where the fountain is. And they go, what time are you going to go? Oh, wait. We're coming back. We're coming back. Wait for us. Oh, I love you. I love you. I love you.

51:24Phil Kitromilides:And he comes back to Morales and he said, you know what? He said, I've gone a year without having a beer. He said, I went to a mate's wedding last summer and I drank all the beer there is to drink. And I've gone a year without having a beer because I knew this was so important to bring us back up. And tonight I'm going to drink all the beer there is to drink again. Nice. So there you go. It's a bit like me working up to this podcast. Haven't had a beer for a while.

51:50Sid Lowe:Valencia have many legends. Can you pick one, Sid? but it means

51:54Phil Kitromilides:the Derby legends

51:54Sid Lowe:specific Derby legends yeah

51:56Phil Kitromilides:and we come back to that thing that we've been talking about before the idea that the story is told if you like by the other club we're really

52:03Sid Lowe:we're focused on underdogs aren't we in the show yeah that's not a bad thing that's right we recommend eating paella we're going to where are we going we're going we're going to Malvarosa we're going to La Pepica La Pepica that's where I go on the on the Malvarosa beach frequented by Ernest Hemingway, apparently. Well, still. And now you. And now me. And lots of Valencia. I know who I'd rather read as well. In terms of the current state of this derby, we're worried about Valencia, aren't we? Well, there's a great headline. Worried about Valencia. Levanting.

52:40Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, because you assume that Levant are already gone. You see, you're asking the wrong person. Well, the wrong people. Because me and Kittcher are in this really weird position now. Lots of teams we don't necessarily hate. God, we hate them. when your team is in relegation trouble everyone around you you just want them to lose all the time how angry were we at Elche the other day for beating Atletico Madrid we were so angry angry with Atletico as well who were doing their best to let everybody else beat them except you and me

53:07Sid Lowe:when they faced each other in February

53:11Phil Kitromilides:Valencia and Levante one of the headlines in the papers was the most dramatic derby in history because it was the first time they could both go down and they really could Could still happen. Could still happen. Could still happen. All right. We're edging towards the end of the first half, but we normally like to end the first half and the second half with a game. Yeah. Thank you. Come on. Who would like to play the game? We need two volunteers. I don't know what the game is yet. It could be really dark. Be careful. And yes. Yes. You and you. Come on up, guys. Come on up. Come on up.

53:55So, guys, we are playing. It's a game I think we played last year as well.

53:59Sid Lowe:I think we do it every year. I think we do it every year. It's who said this? You have to guess. Who said the following statement? Multiple choice. Multiple choice. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just for fun. You're both going to get a prize, so it's all right. No pressure. It's fine. But here we go. It's all about... Yeah, all about the Seville Derby. All about the Seville Derby. You've got four questions all about the Seville Derby. So here's the first one. Who said this? I'm the most important man in Seville after the Pope. Was it Sergio Ramos? Was it Jose Maria del Nido Sr.? Was it Jose Maria del Nido Jr.?

54:41Or was it Denilson? Del Nido Sr. Del Nido Sr. And your guess is? Ramos. Sergio Ramos. It was Del Nido Sr. 1-0. Point to you, my friend. I'll keep track of the score. You keep track of the score. I'm trying to hide the answers. All right. Who said this? I don't even want them to win matches that they play in training sessions. Was it Manuel Ruiz de la Opera? Was it Julio Baptista? Beast. Was it Joaquin Caparrós? Or was it Joaquin Sanchez? Joaquin Caparos that's your guess the other Joaquin the other Joaquin is correct 2-0 2-0 flying we didn't even ask your name what's your name? Anil Anil and your name?

55:34Alex and Anil double A okay here's another one there's absolutely no comparison our fans are so much better than theirs was it Jesus Navas who said this Was it Luis Fabiano? Was it Sergio Ramos? Or was it Freddy Canute? Luis Fabiano?

56:03It was Sergio Ramos. Still 2-0. Someone said, it's got to be Ramos.

56:09Phil Kitromilides:I like the idea of Freddie Cano's hey being that bold and that mild-mannered friendly. The most mild man on the planet. And who said the following? Finally, after winning the derby, he said, whoever gets home before 5am is getting fined. Was it Juan de Ramos? was it Joaquin Sanchez was it Pepe Mel or was it Fididi George

56:40it was correct

56:41Sid Lowe:final score 3-1 a 3-1 win for Anil congratulations now brilliant stay where you are both of you are going to get prizes as is traditional we've got our fantastic selection of La Liga shirts a grab bag of shirts the winner can choose first you'll both get to choose a shirt from the bag. And you also get a book and a mug as well. So I'm going to get the grab bag now. Winner chooses first.

57:09Phil Kitromilides:We should say, by the way, you say a book. It's a brilliant book. It's not his. It's not mine. I see. It's not his book. That was fantastic. It is a brilliant book. It's not mine. It's significantly better than mine. Brendan's in here somewhere. I don't know where he is. But do read this book. book. Al, do you want to get it out and show everyone so they can... Is it in the bag? He's doing the grab bag. He's doing the grab bag. There we go. You've gone for the La Real. Very nice. There are some really quite random shirts in there. I'm not going to lie. No, no one's gone for the Al Maria 2015. It's a treat for later.

57:56I do like those. Bravo!

58:05there will be another game at the end of the second half as well and you could be up here choosing some out of date la liga shirts so don't we call them retro now retro after the success the tremendous success of the la liga retro weekend this is the retro well done guys this is the only ball we have so we're not giving that away okay 15 minute interval please go and buy lots and lots and lots of drinks. Order some food if you want some as well and we'll be back in 15 minutes. Thank you. Thanks. Just looking at some shirts here. We're very pleased that everybody's representing shirts. We have got Malaga, Oviedo, Depot, La Real, Girona, Europa?

58:47Sabadell. Wow. Very nice. Valencia. What have we got there? Nastic de Tarragona. Did you win that in one of our previous... No, you actually bought that. Okay, that's decent. Nice. Osasuna representing Legades. And he's got a super Pepino with him.

59:09Sid Lowe:Oh, my God. Yay! Winner right there. Okay, so how many people have we annoyed with our comments during the first half? Not too many. I don't think we offended too many people. I saw a better shirt. There's a Barca shirt as well. There's some Madridistas at the back. Madridistas at the back. Athletic Club. Wonderful. Good. That's what we like to see. Nice spread, nice spread, because Spanish football is not just about Real Madrid and Barca. We know that. Okay, so we start the second half of the show by talking about a really good derby, a terrific derby. In the north of Spain, not that one, this one, yes.

59:48The Basque derby, which is, as we always say, a very special and unique game of football because they don't hate each other that much.

1:00:01Sid Lowe:So my question is, does that make it better? Does it make it less of a... Do we want a bit of aggro, a bit of niggle, a bit of... What do you want your derby to feel like? Do we want a derby to be friendly? It's like everybody's sitting there, yeah, it doesn't matter, it's fine, we're all Basque, this is fantastic. But it's not true.

1:00:20Phil Kitromilides:I mean, it's kind of true. Exactly, that's why... So the answer to Al's question is it's not a problem. because the fact that it's friendly doesn't make it any less fierce. So they go and they drink together and they sit together in many cases and then they go onto the pitch and kick seven shades of shit out of each other. And that's the way it should be. There's a great line. I can't remember who it was that said it to me years ago now. Why would you argue when you can have a fight? I quite like that. Let's not argue. and it's a sort of Was that in relation to the Barstow? Yeah, the idea that get on the pitch have a fight why argue?

1:00:59Get on the pitch

1:01:00Phil Kitromilides:have a fight Get out of your system and then at the end of it go well and then go and eat some pinchers I think we shouldn't we shouldn't disguise the fact that there is a little bit of edge there is some tension there are moments when they dislike each other but broadly speaking this has been to go back to what you were saying earlier fraternal it's been it's been a you know when when Real Sociedad won the league but a different kind of fraternal very different kind like a unified fraternal rather than sort of hatred of your sibling yeah and it's you know when Real Sociedad won the league in 1981 athletics fans celebrated it there was a real sense the two clubs I mean let's not go too far let's not claim they celebrated as in they went out and they were driving around the city and beeping the horns and diving into fountains but they were pleased about this partly because of the moment of course you're talking only five years after the death of Franco or six years after the death of Franco I would say in large part because of the moment Yes, of course.

1:01:53Phil Kitromilides:And because of what it symbolised. And the fact that you then get two titles for each of the two big Basque clubs at the start of the 80s. And everything that that symbolises and that idea. And there was the chant from some Basque fans when Atletic, Real Sociedad, Osasuna, Rural First Division teams and Alaves hadn't come up yet and they were on their way up. And the chant was, Ya somos tres, solo falta Alaves. There's three of us now. The only one missing is Alaves. The idea that they wanted everyone up in the First Division. and there was a sense of a shared identity and a shared community and importance.

1:02:25Sid Lowe:I mean, some of the pictures we've got here, literally fans of the two teams arm in arm. And that is one of your favourite views in Spanish football, I think, Sid, looking down towards San Mames in Bilbao.

1:02:37Phil Kitromilides:So you can see San Mames at the end. And this is the new San Mames, but the old San Mames was on the same site. The pictures rotated, but the old San Mames was on the same site. And it used to be, just like it is now, This is Pothas, the street that runs towards Sammermes, where it feels like every doorway is a bar on the way down. And Pothas is kind of like a portal, because it's narrow, and at the end of it you can see the stadium. And with the old stadium, it was exactly where they put the badge. So at the end of the road you could see the badge, just nothing else, the badge. And it's like if you go into Pothas, you can't end up anywhere else other than the stadium.

1:03:11Phil Kitromilides:It's like you're carried along to it. Admittedly, you're not going in a straight line, because you're going in and out of the bars, but you're carried along to it and there's a real sense that this is kind of like the I don't know what you call it, I suppose the heart of this club, of the stadium as well, one of the big success stories of a new stadium by keeping it in the same place, keeping the same liturgy keeping the same community, keeping the same pre-game atmosphere and I think that is partly because that's all bound up in what they are and what they want to be

1:03:42Sid Lowe:In terms of tradition and culture and all these unique elements, this might be the number one derby.

1:03:48Phil Kitromilides:Well, I mean, you know... In that sense. We've been asking in all of these cases for a word. And I think the word for this one is identity. Maybe even more powerfully than any of the other derbies. All of these derbies have an identity element to it. Of course they do. Everybody identifies with their club and every fan thinks their club is special. You go to the Basque derby and you think, yeah, they're right. They're actually right. I mean, there's a really simple way of saying it. These two met each other. I've got the statistics here because I wanted to check that I wasn't going to get it wrong.

1:04:16Phil Kitromilides:When they met in the Copa del Rey semi-final, what is it, two months ago? Of the... Here we go. Of the 22 players that started that game, 18 of them, 18 of the 22 had come through the youth academies at the two clubs and 15 of the 22 were Basque. And that, by the way, is if we don't count Navarro as Basque. and of course for a lot of people in the Basque country Nevada does culturally, socially politically, not administratively from their point of view count as Basque so the numbers are even higher you're talking about a part of the country that accounts for only 4 % of the population of Spain only 1.9 % of the territory and yet produces two gigantic clubs because the football tradition there is so entrenched because the sense of identity and the sense of who they are is so powerful if we talk about a classic game to represent this derby, there is one that very much springs to the mind.

1:05:18Not necessarily for the football. I don't even know how this game finished, but the Icorinha game, Sid, is the sort of defining moment.

1:05:25Phil Kitromilides:Well, we were talking a minute ago about the moment and the context. This is in 1976. At this point, the bass flag is still illegal. This bass flag in this picture,

1:05:37Sid Lowe:the two players of the two captains,

1:05:39Phil Kitromilides:Inacio Cotabaria and Jose Angel Iribar, Hedipas, the goalkeeper, who is about the most mythical figure in Spanish football history, just about. This is the guy that when he celebrated his 80th birthday, goalkeepers all over Spain played in plain black shirts to pay homage to him. Because there's this sense of him embodying everything that you want, tradition and history and commitment and identity and everything to be. And this is them coming onto the pitch with a bass flag at this point that is still illegal. it's worth pointing out that this Bass flag was made by one of the player's sisters and smuggled into the stadium and they walk onto the pitch with this flag and you're right it's just occurred to me I don't know what the score was I honestly don't know what the score was it doesn't matter any other games where we do know the score and it was classic we know we know lots of other games with scores should have probably checked that one yeah no we know lots of games with scores would you like to go through some of them or do you want to just choose the best one Well, I mean, these two meeting in cup finals is very big.

1:06:43Phil Kitromilides:So here's the thing, right? It was big. It was big. Even though there were no fans, it was big. Right.

1:06:47Sid Lowe:That's the thing. I was going to say, I was going to pick some highlights from that game to show. But you watch the highlights and the fact that the stadium is empty because it's during the pandemic. It's not the same.

1:06:57Phil Kitromilides:No. And last week, on Saturday night, when Real Sociedad won the final, there was one phrase that stuck with me more than any other from Miquel Ollabal who of course scored the winning goal when they met in the Copa de Re final in 2021 it was actually a 2020 final but they'd waited a year to play it and he scored the winning goal there and of course he scored again in the final last weekend because Miquel Ollabal scores in finals he's played six finals and he scored in all of them in his career and the phrase that really stuck with me was after the game he's asked about it, he's asked about the previous final and he says, seeing this today with all of our fans here makes me feel even more sorry about what happened five years ago.

1:07:37Phil Kitromilides:Not joyous that we won it, but no one's taken that away and no one's claiming it's anything other than an amazing achievement to have won the Copa de la Re and to have won the first ever All-Bas Copa de la Re final. But to say it actually made me feel... The phrase was incluso más pena. Even more pity, even more pain at not having had the fans in last time. He actually said before this recent cup final that it was possibly the biggest game in his career. someone who has played into pretty bloody big games in his career but this one was the biggest one because the fans were there because they were there and because it carried with it if you like this final was like winning the last one as well or certainly celebrating this final was like saying we celebrate both of these and this is why I think so you say which is the most important fast RB ever I think that the answer is not the final they played five years ago but I also think the answer is the final they played five years ago.

1:08:32Phil Kitromilides:Suitably cryptic. I'm going to explain why. It's not because this final, this game is all about the people. It's all about their communities. It's all about their societies. It's all about their identification, what it means to the people, what it does. And we saw that in the celebrations when Athletic won the final, not against Real Sociedad two years ago, and did that incredible celebration with the Guevara. I think we saw it this week in the celebrations in Donosti when Real Sociedad won the final. So that's why it's not the best, because there were no fans in the stadium. but it's also why it was because they played that final in 2021 it's the 2020 final those two clubs said during the pandemic we want to wait for our fans and they waited as long as they would be allowed they played the 2020 final one week before the 2021 final because basically they've been told your cutoff point is next year's final you cannot play last year's final after next year's final if you see me after this year's final so they waited as long as they could and they still had to play it without fans.

1:09:29Phil Kitromilides:And this is why I think that empty stadium is actually the best possible demonstration of what these clubs are because I don't want to cast aspersions on any other club in Spain. But I think I'm fairly certain that no other pair of finalists would have done that. No other pair of finalists would have said, no, we're not playing. We're waiting. We want our fans to be there. We're not doing this. If we have to wait a year, we wait a year. if we have to not go into Europe, which, by the way, happened. We will not go into Europe because our communities have to be there. And the terrible tragedy is that it still wasn't enough waiting a year.

1:10:07Phil Kitromilides:But I think the symbolism of an empty stadium is these two teams waited and they waited for their people and it wasn't enough, no. But I think they did something that no other two clubs would have done. He's good at it. I like that. Yeah, convincing.

1:10:20Sid Lowe:Convinced. Totally convinced. Does that work? Are you happy with that? All right, good. I'm glad. It's good. it's nice that you can surprise us after all these years it'd be beautiful you said that Iriba is the legend he is the he is the goalkeeper in Spain but he is it's funny as well there's a thing about Basque goalkeepers isn't there because he's not even the only he's far from the only legendary Basque keeper you talk about Arconada for L 'Areal and others as well well Arconada

1:10:45Phil Kitromilides:has really come into focus this week of course because because you you have Real Sotirab winning the final with Unai Marrero the substitute goalkeeper who'd been a star already in, was it the last 16 or the quarterfinals, can't remember now? Last 16. Last 16, who then saves two more penalties in the shootout this time around. He's the subshoot goalkeeper. He's wearing the Arconada shirt. Now, we shouldn't overplay this a bit in that that's a commercialised shirt now and it's what they do. It's not that he'd taken that decision, but there has been a conscious decision to emulate Arconada, to wear a shirt like Arconada used to wear.

1:11:14Phil Kitromilides:And every time you talk about our goalkeeper in Donosti, people relate it to Arconada, who was a genuine superstar. He was. I know someone in Madrid who's just a little bit older than me, and he works for Real Madrid TV, and he is very, very, very, very Madridista, Madrileño, and of a certain political persuasion. And when he was a kid, he told me, I supported Real Sociedad because of Luis Arconada. Like, that's how much he had a cultural sway on people. And it was, I think it was, am I right in saying it? Palop wasn't it when Spain won the Euros in 2008 Palop wore an Arcanada shirt Arcanada who some of you will know this but who was Palop's from Valencia exactly there's no connection there's no reason to have a connection Arcanada was a Spain goalkeeper who made a mistake in the Euros final in 1984 when they finished runners up and there was always a feeling of rather than saying what an idiot he made a mistake there was an embracing of him because this guy is an absolute legend and it can happen even to him and it's funny

1:12:14Sid Lowe:because keepers don't tend to be the biggest stars or the biggest names or the biggest heroes but in these cases they were here's a

1:12:21Phil Kitromilides:here's a totally off the top of my head I'm probably about to say something stupid one for you a rincon cultural is this to do with pelota is it to do with a sense of you know the sporting identification of the Basque Country is different the Basque Country is a place which has televised wood chopping so and quite often before games you'll have wood chopping on the pitch yeah so it is different it's certainly different it's definitely different okay any tips? go to Pothas before and if you can check out the Basque street poetry battle which takes place yes yeah it's called the Berzo Derby and I love this and I'm sort of hoping this will force Kitschow into a momentary wrap off but basically this is essentially a poetry off you get teams of people normally three on each team three for Raussof free from athletic club it's improvised Basque street poetry unfortunately of course being in Basque I don't understand a word of it but it's phenomenal to see and it's really again it's that idea of it being this is a cultural manifestation not just a sporting one in fact maybe not even a sporting one no it's just slightly strange but it's also quite nice to see I haven't seen it myself but I've seen videos that you've taken and it's quite something

1:13:44Sid Lowe:go and see that And also, eat as many pinchos as you physically can. Just fill yourself with pinchos. Let's move on to the Catalan Derby. The Catalan Derby. There are, of course, others. This is the one that we are talking about, Barcelona against Espanyol, the one that you are all familiar with. Again, this is a familiar theme in the show about one-sidedness, which is why we kicked off with the Seville Derby, which is what makes the Seville Derby proper. because it is this kind of... Whatever, we talked about that. This is one-sided, Sid. This is ridiculously one-sided. It might be the most one-sided derby of a major city across Europe in terms of two teams in the top flight.

1:14:33Do you want some numbers?

1:14:34Phil Kitromilides:Yeah. According to a government poll, football fans in Catalonia, 75.4 % support Barcelona. 11.9%. Only 11.9 % support Real Madrid.

1:14:54Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, Espanol are down at... I'm just checking this is right. Espanol are down at 3%. That's why they call themselves the marvellous minority. Yeah. As Pique once said, and Pique is very much wind-up merchant-in-chief, he's also, in fairness, victim of some really pretty nasty abuse over the years as well. PK said, they call themselves a marvellous minority. It'd be nice if they could fill the stadium once in a while. Which is also harsh. And I actually feel like at this point I should stand up and defend Espanol. Go on then. Which is to say, they are a big club. They are a historic club. They have a big fan base.

1:15:32Phil Kitromilides:They have a big stadium that they fill. They've had really big moments. And also, just let me say one thing. Well, I'm going to say lots of things. But let me say this one thing. There is this myth that I want to challenge. And this myth says, oh, Espanol, they're all Real Madrid fans. Well, they sort of are, because Real Madrid are not Barcelona. But the idea is that they go and play against Real Madrid and they just lie down and die and say, go on, score 10 goals, we don't care. And they go to Barcelona, a knife between the teeth, and they go for them and they fight. Their record against Barcelona over the last 15 years is far worse than it is against Real Madrid.

1:16:07Phil Kitromilides:They've actually had better results against Real Madrid than against Barcelona. That said, it is still true that they go with a knife between the teeth against Barcelona.

1:16:13Sid Lowe:And like you say, they're not a small club. They're just not a giant, global kind of behemoth like Barcelona.

1:16:19Phil Kitromilides:Which is why I suppose, and this speaks to the identity, should we do the game again of come up with a name for it? A word for it? A word, yeah. I suppose the word here is shadow. Ooh. Ah, okay. Barcelona cast an enormous shadow. And it is impossible for Espanyol to get out of that. And in a way, I think almost what they need to do is not try to get out of it. To build an identity. It's really difficult. That's what they were doing with that marvellous minority idea. Except, of course, as soon as you call yourself a minority, you're effectively implicitly saying, because there's a really big team out there.

1:16:52Phil Kitromilides:And genuinely, this is the kind of thing that marketing departments talk about and discuss. How do we pitch ourselves? How do we tell our story? How do we say who we are? And it's really quite difficult. Because how do you tell a story that isn't, you know, what's our identity? Our identity is we're not Barcelona. Yeah. that is their identity in part and obviously we see this by the way we see this in the in the slightly awkward thing about Catalanism and Espanol's attempts to try and reclaim for themselves Catalanism changing the name into Catalan which is by the way to keep the initials the same meant they pretty much had to invent a word to change the name to that.

1:17:33Phil Kitromilides:Deportiu Deportiu because it should be Esportiu it shouldn't be Deportiu using announcements in Catalan But they're right to say that they've brought kids through the youth system. They're right to say they've had lots of Catalan players. They're right to say that they are a Catalan team in many ways. And, of course, the myth, and most of you will know this, but the people make the assumption that they're called Espanol, which, of course, means Spanish, because they're not Catalan. That's not why they're called Espanol. They're called Espanol because it was a bunch of Spanish students who started the club at a time when Barcelona was launched by foreign students, not by Catalan.

1:18:04Phil Kitromilides:It's not Catalan against Spanish. it's Spanish against not Spanish with Catalan included in that there is the famous phrase go on Barcelona always use it Barcelona are more than a club to which of course the response from the other side of the city is yeah and so is Catalonia but you wouldn't know it and their part of their identity is that feeling that they've been pushed aside that they don't exist that the political authorities that the society doesn't take any notice of them sorry do you want me to stop now so maybe all of this is why we have seen sort of seething resentment building up against you know.

1:18:39Resentment, that's the word? Resentment. Resentment's the word. Yeah, not shadow. Not shadow resentment. Either or, because this derby has actually gotten quite nasty over the last few years, particularly from the Espanyol side. Yeah, and I think this is, look I mean we've seen some, when I say scenes that, you know, nobody wants to see this, nobody wants to see players literally chased off the pitch by, you know, pitch invading fans. We don't.

1:19:03Phil Kitromilides:We don't want to see that. No. I was there then. It's actually quite scary when that happens. And, you know, look, should we get all serious and responsible here? It's true that when you start talking about rivalries and you start talking about derbies, implicitly in this, there is a little bit of a joy in the needle in the edge and there is a little bit of us enjoying the fact that it gets a bit feisty at times. It gets proper naughty. But it can also on occasions be really unpleasant. And that's not... You don't want that. And, you know, I mentioned PK before. And PK is a wind-up merchant trying to wind up Espanol.

1:19:35Phil Kitromilides:But actually, some of what Piquet has faced has been absolutely grotesque. It's been really, truly horrible. And that's not good at all.

1:19:43Sid Lowe:You do feel for Espanol, especially when a really good player does come through, like, say, Joanne Garcia, goes and joins Barca. Yes. I mean, I was actually told that Joanne Garcia was a Barcelona fan as a kid.

1:19:59Phil Kitromilides:But his family were all Espanol season builders. But he was a Barcelona fan. and also the option from a professional point of view that's why one of the things that I liked about this was there's a moment before the game when they face each other this year and they do the pre-match interview on the pitch and my mind's gone blank I can't think which player it is I think it might be Joffrey Carreras I think and they ask him about Joanne Garcia and he says I hope no one minds me saying this but Joanne is my friend I just thought you know what a brilliant way of cutting through the shit and yet at the same time, effectively, you do realise that you shouldn't mind.

1:20:37I've got a friend, but people will. Classic game. Let's get back to our structure here. A classic game from this fixture, the Catalan derby. There is one that springs to mind.

1:20:48Sid Lowe:Yeah, there's one obvious, obvious, obvious one, right? Going back to 2007. A game, not just a derby, but a derby which decided a league title in just about the most dramatic way possible. Which we've mentioned before on the podcast. Stop us if you've heard this before. But the Tamudazo from 2007, scored by Raul Tamudo.

1:21:06Phil Kitromilides:Amazing. This is proper amazing. So it's week 37 in La Liga. It's the last few minutes of week 37 in La Liga, and they are playing the game simultaneously. Real Madrid and Barcelona competing for the league title. Admittedly, Barcelona have been really quite poor for most of the year, but they are still within reach of winning the league title. basically Real Madrid are losing 2-1 in Zaragoza Barcelona are winning 2-1 at home against Espanyol Real Madrid need two goals but they don't need to score them both themselves so here's the times I actually wrote this down for you 10.47 at night and 19 seconds Rudvan Nishroy scores in Zaragoza Real Madrid are now drawing 2-2.

1:21:59Phil Kitromilides:10.47 of 39 seconds. Tamudo scores for Espanyol to make it 2-2 at the Camp Nou. Real Madrid, from being basically the title's gone, they're now top of the table. Two goals in 18 seconds in two different stadiums. Real Tamudo, who is born in Catalonia, who is, if you like, the hero, the best player in Espanyol's recent history, goes and scores this goal against Barcelona, which cost them a league title.

1:22:26Sid Lowe:Is that the most dramatic minute in La Liga history?

1:22:30Phil Kitromilides:It's absolutely nuts. It's amazing to watch. There's the footage of Rud van Nistrooy trotting back, thinking, oh, you know, we've equalised, but we haven't really got long to get the next one. And then there's a big cheer. You don't need to get the next one now. Espanol have just scored it for you, however many hundreds of miles away, well, 300 miles away. Yeah, it is pretty fitting that the defining moment of this rivalry is a goal that Espanol scored to deny Barcelona the title. Well, you look at two of the last three titles that Barcelona have won, assuming they win this one, have been won against Espanyol.

1:23:02Phil Kitromilides:And this one was effectively won against Espanyol a week ago, which pretty much brought it to an end. But yeah, it's kind of defined by Espanyol denying them a title. Should I try and do the polite version? I'll try and do the polite version of this. Go on, please. In Diario As, their match report was an Espanyol fan. He described, he said, God is a periquito. God is a parakeet. Now, I know he moves in mysterious ways and transforms himself. there you go he's a paraquito Espanol have won this game the headline Inas one of the big sports newspapers that day after Tamudo had done this was the shag of the century that's how much he'd enjoyed it very enjoyable I feel like we should move on to a derby that we've left to the end more or less

1:23:49Sid Lowe:do you think Kittrosh you and I go and get a get a drink at the bar and leave Sid's solo for for this one Sturian Derby Ray Loviedo against Sporting Key Con now actually we haven't just put this in because of Sid we've put this in because it is actually a proper like a very very serious derby in Spanish football not the highest level of Spanish football usually

1:24:14Phil Kitromilides:no that's true but it is not in recent years but traditionally historically it was first division alright alright alright come on Shall I have a bit of respect? Not for a while. But yes, this is, Sid, this genuinely is a proper Derby. And give us a word to define it. Helmet.

1:24:34Sid Lowe:That's a bit harsh on you, Sid.

1:24:35Phil Kitromilides:I wouldn't... Helmet. So I'm going to go a little bit personal to start with. The first time that I went to an Asturias Derby was... Is that you? No, that's not me. It does look a bit like a young Sid. It could be me.

1:24:50Sid Lowe:Are we sure it's not you?

1:24:51Phil Kitromilides:Yeah, I'm sure it's not me. first time I went to to an Asturias Derby it's 1997 and I mentioned to an Oviedo supporting friend that I was going to go to the Derby and he said get yourself a helmet what? get yourself a helmet what do you mean? he said you're going to need a helmet get yourself a helmet people go and work with helmets as you can see there now in fairness you can also see in this picture that quite a lot of people don't and actually we didn't I like the fact

1:25:15Sid Lowe:it's also like an Oviedo branded helmet though it's got the club badge on it do they sell it at the club shop? no I think he's made that himself.

1:25:23Phil Kitromilides:It's just a workman's helmet he's stuck a sticker on. I sent you a picture that a friend of mine sent of a helmet which has been scribbled all over and it says lots of very rude things about sporting Gijon on it. But basically what happened was they put us in a train. We went from Oviedo to Gijon, which is about 30 kilometres. Now, as you can imagine, a train from Oviedo to Gijon has lots of intermittent stations. Now, it wasn't stopping at those stations because it was just the fans. We were packed into the train, nowhere to move. People are a bit drunk. people are literally passing glasses of piss along the carriage to throw out the window because no one's going to get to the top it's quite grim anyway you get out but as you get to the last two or three stops before Gijon obviously the sporting Gijon fan knows what the route of the train is the train can't go off its tracks it knows what the route of the train is they are sporting fans waiting at the platforms of the small towns just before Gijon as the train goes through to chuck things at the train as we're going past now I'm going to come back to what we said earlier I don't want this to be a glorification of violence No, we don't condone.

1:26:20Phil Kitromilides:But, you know, it's quite an experience, to be fair. Anyway, so you get to Jijon. This is the fans getting to Jijon at the train station, and the police march you to the stadium. It's a great walk, by the way. It's about three kilometres from the station to the stadium. You go along the seafront. Fantastic. And along the seafront, the sporting fans are also waiting for you to throw things at you, hence the workman's helmet, because they will throw things at you. Bottle's are flying over and stuff like this. The police decide they want to move us a little bit quickly, so they start to run. I don't know if you've ever seen 500 people running in a square boxed in by police put it this way if you start to go a bit too slow or a bit too far to the left or a bit too far to the right whack you're back in the crowd it really wasn't actually very nice but looking back on it it sort of makes me laugh I'll admit it you get to the stadium and it was nil nil but it doesn't matter because there was another derby that year the year that I lived in Oviedo and you get to the stadium in a wheelchair at this point I'd broken my ankle, I was in the hospital in Oviedo I persuaded them to allow me out for one day to go to the derby so I get in the wheelchair, they allow me to go to the stadium wheelchair and no helmet this time no helmet this time because it was at home anyway, wheel me to the stadium, brilliant and it's nil-nil again so I couldn't tell you much about the football there's a lovely line from the mayor of Oviedo before the first of those derbies that year, he said this isn't just football this is poetry I don't know what poetry he was reading my god it was awful I mean, it often is.

1:27:47Phil Kitromilides:It quite often is awful. Not great for the football. Yeah, it quite often is awful. So do you want some actual games? Classic. I mean, are there any classic games? Quotation marks? Classic. Yeah, I mean, there's some classic figures in this. Kinney, for example. The one that really sticks with me is David Villa. And obviously, it's easy to say this after the event.

1:28:08Sid Lowe:I think we can see him here. A young David Villa. There is.

1:28:10Phil Kitromilides:This is in 2002, I think. and David Villa scores as Sporting beat Real Oviedo, and David is 19 at this point, and I promise you, he was unbelievable. Obviously, you look at it now, well, of course, he went on to be everything that he was, win the Champions League with Barcelona, fantastic player at Valencia, win everything with Spain, but you could tell even then that this guy was phenomenal. This guy's dad supports Real Oviedo. It hurts still. He ignored his dad. Oviedo weren't interested in him when he was a kid. his dad Mel supports Real Loviello I mean I assume he doesn't support him anymore but David Villa became a big big big sporting player big sporting fan despite actually never playing in the first division for them but the symbolism of what he meant for sporting because bear in mind that this is second division game this is a period in which neither of them have been in the first division for a little bit sporting have actually been down longer than Loviello at this point and then David Villa when he leaves makes a point of always expressing his identification with Asturias the region pouring cider as part of his celebration, being a sporting fan, he actually made friends with the guys from Canal Plus TV during the Euros in 2008 so that he would have somewhere to go and watch sporting play.

1:29:26Phil Kitromilides:So he would go to the mobile unit and watch the games in the mobile unit with them. And just, you know, very much identified with him. So much so that when he came back to play against sporting for the first time as a Valencia player, he scores a penalty and the stadium applauds him. Wow. I noticed that he didn't actually give a game. Well, you mentioned one game. No, no, no. I gave you this game.

1:29:45Sid Lowe:You mentioned one that Oviedo lost 4-1 to Sporting's B team.

1:29:51Phil Kitromilides:Right, so this is the thing. So they play in 2003 and then they don't play each other again until 2017, I think it is. Oviedo, a lot of you will know this, but Oviedo get relegated in 2001. They get relegated again. They then get administratively relegated. They go all the way down to Tertede de Vizion in Spain, which isn't Tertede de Vizion. you've got first division, second division, second division B which is split across four groups 80 teams and the third division which is 18 groups, I think back then it was only 17 but 17 groups, so you're not talking a fourth tier, you're playing on park pitches a lot of the time, you're playing against some pretty small clubs Oviedo end up playing against Sporting's B team they beat us 4-1 you go to the Molinan and you see your team lose 4-1 to your rival's B team, they did it to us twice and so that was the kind of real symbol of this and the other thing that happened with an Oviedo playing local regional football against local regional teams in the Gijon area, sporting fans start turning up to support the other team and again let's say that thing about not wanting to glorify in the confrontation but actually occasionally that got nasty as well because you can imagine a local park team there's no police there's no way of controlling it and occasionally that got nasty but yeah that was if you like the the manifestation of how far Oviedo had fallen.

1:31:05In terms of the cultural background of this rivalry, Oviedo was two cities. The posh kids. Yeah, a little bit.

1:31:14Phil Kitromilides:That is sort of true. Oviedo is the provincial capital. Gijon is actually a bigger city. Oviedo is the provincial capital. Oviedo likes to remind Gijon that they're the provincial capital. I remember actually that game when we were marching along the beach, some of the chants, my favourite one was Oviedo fans offering a deal to the British government. Gijon for Gibraltar you give us Gibraltar back you can have Gijon are we taking that? for some reason the British government never took them up on that I'd say that sooner have Gijon

1:31:46Sid Lowe:don't reject it out of hand

1:31:48Phil Kitromilides:let's at least talk about this so Oviedo are away for a long time which is why the other derby that I really like is the first one back and Oviedo get an 88th minute equaliser they haven't played each other for what is it 17 years at this point and uh toche who's the captain that day stands in front of the fans takes the armband off and holds it out in front of the fans and says that i can't remember the phrase or something along the lines of you know this is the whole of oviedo is in this because it was a sign that actually oviedo would have come back and sporting fans kind of laughed at oviedo said oh your whole season's based on playing us no it's just a demonstration that we came back because we had to play your b team and now look where they

1:32:26Sid Lowe:are.

1:32:27Phil Kitromilides:Not for very long, admittedly, but allow me to glory in it for a moment.

1:32:31Sid Lowe:Do you want to tell everybody where you were literally last night, Sid?

1:32:36Phil Kitromilides:I was in Oviedo.

1:32:37Sid Lowe:Yeah. And then?

1:32:39Phil Kitromilides:And then on a bus.

1:32:40Sid Lowe:Sid went to Oviedo last night, got a night bus, an overnight bus to Madrid, straight to the airport to catch his plane to join us today.

1:32:53Yeah. He slept on the bus, ladies and gentlemen. and he slept on the bus.

1:32:57Sid Lowe:Yeah, Kittrow did not know about this until yesterday. He surely knew. No, you told me you thought you were going to do it. I thought I talked you out of it. And then I was like, no, he's doing it. Yeah.

1:33:08Phil Kitromilides:I do listen. I just don't always act upon what I've heard. But you completely agree. Oh, absolutely. And he took his son. So there we go. But fair enough. Social services are after me.

1:33:20Sid Lowe:So your recommendation is, like, go at all costs to Oviedo. Whatever commitments you've got the next day. That's basically the recommendation, yeah. Can I tell you a secret? Go on. I've never been to Oviedo. We do have to fix this, you know. That must be like TSFP's kind of 20th birthday. I feel like I've heard so much about Oviedo. I don't need to go there.

1:33:43Phil Kitromilides:It's fine. I know all about that, but it's nice. I mean, I was going to... Then I realised it was deeply unpleasant. I was going to tell you about some of the favourite chants. of the fans towards the players and i finally decided against it but obviously another person who symbolizes guys from la liga yeah don't do it don't do it it's really really quite unpleasant um but but there's a famous photograph of a guy called antonio gorriaran who is seen as the embodiment of raul of yellow during the years when they came up from the second division in the late 80s and we're in the first vision and he was basically not particularly talented but he would kick everyone and he was tough as nails and he was the embodiment of what oviedo wanted there fans will be and there's a famous photograph of him saying to Luis Enrique I'm saving the red card for you what a brilliantly threatening line that is that is terrifying I'm saving the red card for you he claims there's a little bit of mythology he said I did say something to him but it might not have been exactly that it's a great line he's now living in a cabin in a shepherd's cabin trying to write books he went from hard man to I don't know what would you call that holistic

1:34:49Sid Lowe:Anyway, one day, TSSP live show in Oviedo. It'll happen. It would be good, that, wouldn't it? For Kittrow's first visit. I'm saving the red card for you. I like that. I'm trying to think how I can work that into conversing with my son when he's pissing me off. I'm saving the red card for you. Okay, that's quite enough about Oviedo. I've heard far too much about them. Right. Any others? Any other derbies? We thought about this. We debated this quite fiercely. Were there any others deserving of making a place on our shortlist?

1:35:18Phil Kitromilides:And obviously the South Madrid derby. As I said earlier on, only four kilometres between them. But you...

1:35:26Sid Lowe:Sorry, I had to... The only way I could illustrate was... Super P. I would say Kittrow's meeting with Super Pepino. It's more SP ran past you very fast. He's literally just doing that, just running up and down the tunnel. And you got very excited. It wasn't in a derby, by the way. It's just one of my favourite TSFP moments. yeah but yeah the South Madrid derby Getafe Leganes actually quite tasty Sid?

1:35:54Phil Kitromilides:yeah a little bit tasty in a sort of a small time tasty kind of way yeah

1:35:58Sid Lowe:small time tasty

1:36:00Phil Kitromilides:say only four kilometres between the two you can actually see the other stadium from Leganes which is slightly higher up you can see of course this is best known

1:36:06Sid Lowe:as the derby that is is it the closest derby to your house? it is the closest derby

1:36:09Phil Kitromilides:to my house I mean until Alcorcon start playing whoever Alcorcon play the word is convenient yeah the word is convenience advice for this game give me a shout on the way there and I'll drop you off yeah this derby is actually unique genuinely unique because Leganes and Getafe are the only two teams to have played each other at every single level of Spanish football this is genuinely a derby played on gravel pitches this is genuinely a derby it's fantastic and they're not huge clubs but these are big cities even though they're part of the Madrid outer ring and there was a project and I can't remember which mayor it was who'd come up with the idea of creating a town that was going to be called Madrid South and it was just going to join together Mostoles, Leganes, Getafe and I can't remember which other one maybe Alcocon and so let's just make them the big Madrid city but they've all got identities of their own up to a point they're really quite close they genuinely hate each other they do they really do again it can get occasionally a little bit edgy although I did go to the first ever derby between the two teams in the first division and there's nothing around Leganes' ground it's kind of an out of town ground but actually not very far out of town if you walk the other way.

1:37:17Phil Kitromilides:There's a shopping centre. There's a shopping centre with a McDonald's and a Carrefour and stuff like that. And so basically the fans had started doing, I suppose... Doing their shopping? Well, yes. Well, actually, yes. They'd kind of done, I suppose, the Spanish tailgating thing. They got their cars, they got little trestle tables out and they'd have the drinks by the cars and get on with it. And there's this moment where you have the Getafe fans turn up and then the Leganes fans start chanting and they do that thing of chanting, you're just four cats. Yes. which is a Spanish way of saying it's hardly any of you they're just four cats there's hardly any of either of them really and the obviously the Leganes chant to them is Ea Ea Ea Getafe es una aldea yeah Getafe is like a hamlet because it has an official population which is 2 ,000 less than Leganes so you're a hamlet we're so much bigger that aldea thing is quite popular in derbies actually between Oviedo and Gijón they do that as well they call each of aldeanos yeah do they do that as well just from a crappy little town yeah alright Right, I mean, Canary Islands derby was another derby that we didn't do.

1:38:17A big one that we haven't been to. I've not been to it.

1:38:20Sid Lowe:So, yeah, you have been to it like 25 years or never?

1:38:23Phil Kitromilides:I don't know if I've been to it. I don't think I have. I think I would remember if I had.

1:38:26Sid Lowe:But you spent a lot of time with Las Palmas.

1:38:28Phil Kitromilides:With Las Palmas and with Tenerife. And obviously they're islands. So this, when I was going through the distances, I actually have got the distance between these two. And it's quite close, but of course you've got to go across water, so it's not that easy to do. But I do like the imagery of travelling to a game by boat. Yeah, I remember reading an article a long time ago in 442 magazine about the British expats in both the islands who have become sort of like the ultras. And they were like, I fucking hate those Tenerife bastards. Which I thought was hilarious. But yeah, so there's that element to it as well.

1:39:06Phil Kitromilides:Do you know, Vinnie Samway's had a bar in Las Palmas. his brother ran it and he's the absolute spitting image of Vinny Samuels it was nice Gary Lindick had one as well I think if I remember rightly okay do you want another do you want another derby yeah sure yeah it's not a derby yet well it is but it hasn't been for years and years and years and years and years I get the feeling that almost nobody in Spain dislikes Villarreal because what they've done is pretty impressive you can dislike him a little bit foot because of the family behind them maybe or you can dislike them a little bit because of that.

1:39:40Phil Kitromilides:But I think most people think, wow, they've been really good at connecting the community, really good at building a club. You know, they're not a team that piss anyone off. They're not a team that anyone really dislikes. Oh, they do. Because if Castellón come back, that is a proper derby. And actually it's infused I think with something extra. Because Castellón look at Villarreal and say, you were the four cats before. We were the big club. And actually this 25 years of extraordinary success, brilliant organisation, the construction of a club from top down but then from bottom up as well, bringing a youth system, players in from abroad, all those things that Villarreal have done.

1:40:18Phil Kitromilides:It's quite difficult for Castellon fans who are only 9km away down the road not to look at that and think that could have been ours.

1:40:24Sid Lowe:As you've said before, if you're going to Villarreal and staying overnight, you'll stay in Castellon. There's only one hotel in Villarreal

1:40:31Phil Kitromilides:and it's really not very good. I shouldn't say that, that's not fair, but it did smell quite bad last time I was there. So yeah, you'll probably stay in Castillon. And let's see if they come up.

1:40:40Sid Lowe:Okay, are we going to rank our derbies? Are we going to pick a definitive TSFP ranking? Top five. Yeah, top five? Right. Do we do it or do we ask them? No, I think we can get feedback, but I think it's our rankings. Come on. He was like, no, Sid, no, we're not doing it. Well, ask this lot. Well, how do you propose to organise this logistically? Just cheering. We're just shouting, I suppose. Yeah, it's not going to work. I mean, it's obvious, isn't it? Seville derby is number one. Has to be. Has to be Seville Darby, doesn't it? Doesn't it?

1:41:08Phil Kitromilides:Bastar, he's number one. What? Why?

1:41:11Sid Lowe:Explain yourself.

1:41:12Phil Kitromilides:All right, now we can ask you guys. Okay. Because.

1:41:15Sid Lowe:Well, he's already explained it. Yeah, I suppose, because for everything that we've said,

1:41:18Phil Kitromilides:I think the depth of identity, the demonstration of a kind of a love of tradition of players that really symbolise your clubs, of connection to the community, I think is even greater than in Seville. And Seville's brilliant. I think that they over the last few years have largely been probably been slightly better teams or slightly better games truth is the Seville Betis games haven't always been brilliant no hold on I like that past derbies are usually not that good at all it's always right so go back to your thing about is it a problem that they're friendly it's always fierce so despite that friendliness that doesn't make the game rubbish it doesn't make it wet it doesn't make it I don't know

1:42:01Sid Lowe:you've not convinced me but have you convinced me The colour and the passion of Seville. Well, should we let the audience decide? If you think that Seville is the best derby in Spain, cheer now. If you think that Bass Derby is the best in Spain, cheer now.

1:42:18Phil Kitromilides:Oh, Sid. I think Bass has won that, hasn't it? I mean, I was going to say hands, which was easier to probably say.

1:42:24Sid Lowe:Were you going to count? Sid's not counting. Maths. Yeah. Well, that's true. Yes, exactly. I think the Bass Derby is number one. Bass Derby wins. All right. Bass Derby is number one. Fine.

1:42:33Phil Kitromilides:So does that make Seville number two?

1:42:35Sid Lowe:I think it has to.

1:42:36Phil Kitromilides:I think so.

1:42:37Sid Lowe:It's not Getafe-Legones, is it? No. And then, you know, we can stick the...

1:42:43Phil Kitromilides:Madrid? Madrid or Galician? Do you know what? Actually, I can't believe that Madrid wasn't even in the discussion for number one. It's not in terms of Derby.

1:42:50Sid Lowe:But it's the only one that's been a European Cup final twice. And it's probably the second biggest game in Spanish football.

1:42:56Phil Kitromilides:Wow, we literally just didn't even mention Madrid.

1:43:00Sid Lowe:I think it's what we said about the equality and the even nature of the Derby. I think that's why it has to be one of the other two.

1:43:07Phil Kitromilides:Wow, we didn't... Yeah, okay.

1:43:09Sid Lowe:Okay, so Basque Derby 1, Seville Derby 2, Madrid Derby 3. And then we'll stick the Galicians 4th, the magical, mystical Galicians, and the Asturians 5. Yeah? He's sitting there. All right. So it's like, can I think of a way to justify bumping the Asturian Derby up the list? Are we happy? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I quite like that. Okay. There we go.

1:43:31Phil Kitromilides:So that's Asturias first.

1:43:33Sid Lowe:Yes. That's what you heard. Yeah, that's definitely what I heard.

1:43:37Phil Kitromilides:It goes 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. It goes up. It goes in descending order. Right. We're going to finish with a game. Another game, guys. So who would like to be involved? We need two more volunteers. That's more likely.

1:43:50Sid Lowe:Now you know that everyone gets a prize.

1:43:53Phil Kitromilides:It doesn't matter if I lose. My little friend at the back there. Yes. You can come. Who are you pointing at? You want to play? You? Yeah? Okay. Maybe Dad can help?

1:44:10Sid Lowe:Come on. Dad can help as well. Yeah, yeah.

1:44:14Phil Kitromilides:Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Come on. Dad can help. Do you think Dad actually can help? Yeah, Dad can help. It's going to make things worse for you. Yes, Eber, let's go. Oh, look at this. It's a fast derby. Another. It's a different fast derby.

1:44:29Sid Lowe:And once again, the prizes will be a shirt, from the La Liga grab bag for both contestants. Okay. And a fantastic book written by one of the three people standing next to us right now, Brendan over there. You're going to win Dad's book. We'll maybe hang on to that one and we'll give it to someone else. All right. Get involved, Dad, as well, because you might need a... It's true or false. We've come up with some fantastic statements about Spanish football and you have to figure out if it's true or false. Okay. I'll ask you one and then I'll ask you one. Okay, so what's your name? Rich. And your name?

1:45:08Maliki. All right. Rich, this is for you. The Catalan derby may be extremely one-sided, but it's actually Espanyol who hold the record for the biggest win in the derby. True or false?

1:45:23It is true, Rich. 6-0 on the 15th of April, 1951. So it wasn't always bad for Espanyol. It wasn't always bad. There were some good times. There were some good times. Okay.

1:45:36Sid Lowe:Okay, still 0-0. Now, Maliki, this is for you. Okay, listen carefully. Dad, too. Of the seven big derbies that we've mentioned tonight, the Madrid derby, the Seville derby, the Barça derby, Catalan, Asturian, Galician and Valencian, the only one where the head-to-head record is exactly level in terms of wins is the Galician derby. Which one of these derbies is completely level in terms of who's won it? True or false. Is the Galician one the only one that is level? True or false?

1:46:15False. Do not listen to Daddy, because it is true. Oh, Dad! You're so embarrassing! 125 games played between them. 48 wins for Depor, 48 wins for Celta. So there we go.

1:46:32Sid Lowe:Still in it. Still in it. Right, Rich. Levante have never kept a clean sheet at Mestaya. True or false? It is false. It's happened twice in 2011 and 2008. 1-0. 1-0 to Rich. Right. Maliki. And Dad. Ray Lovedo... You said this one out. Ray Lovedo have a worse win percentage against Sporting Kikon's B team than they do against Sporting Kikon's first team. True or false?

1:47:20it is true

1:47:26Sid Lowe:it's level one all 33 % win percentage against Sporting B 44 % win percentage against Sporting so yeah I mean neither is neither is great okay this is for you Rich the athletic club supporter who went viral during his team's derby defeat at Anoeta in 2023 for standing alone in the crowd celebrating with La Real fans is also a member of a Basque band that includes Asia Via Libre on trombone.

1:48:01It's true.

1:48:03Sid Lowe:Only in the Basque country. And it's still 1-1. Sid, start preparing a tie-break question. Oh, my word. Oh, hang on. How many more questions have you got? This is the last one. Maliki, this is to win. This is to win. No pressure, kid. Okay. The last time that Leganes and Getafe met, in January 2025, Leganes were fined 20 ,000 euros after their mascot, Super Pepino, appeared to grab his genital area in front of the travelling Getafe fans following Diego Garcia's 92nd Minute winner, would Super Pepino do something like that? True or false?

1:48:54It is false.

1:48:56Sid Lowe:It's false. We all know that SP does not have he doesn't have any genitals. He doesn't have any. It's entirely smooth. So there we go. It's a draw. It's a draw. Everyone's a winner, guys.

1:49:23Phil Kitromilides:You don't want a tie-break question. We don't want a tie-break question. Good. Forget the tie-break question. At random. He's got the severe one. That's a nice one. Nice one for Dad. That's very nice. I mean, we don't have any kids' odds, do we? No. No. There we go. All right. Well, you know, give it 10 years and it'll look great. So it'll be retro. Yeah. Yeah. Nice one. Muy bien. Thank you very much. Thanks, guys. Well done. Well done. Well done.

1:49:59Sid Lowe:Great job.

1:50:11Thank you.