Adapt or die: Are football managers too stubborn to succeed?

14:29Mark:moment is the world's biggest team have British players in them whether it's Napoli with the young Scottish guys or AC Milan, Real Madrid, Harry Kane doing fantastic things at Bayern Munich, Michael Alise so there is a respect and the compliment that's played to our young players coming out of the academy systems and in our football so we must have good coaches I think there was a big hint to me when I was a young coach at Chelsea that the managers that came in could all speak two or three different languages. So they were not just fantastic football coaches. These guys had brilliant personal and people skills.

15:00Mark:So that was a big hint to me that you have to upskill, certainly back then. And it's something, as I say, it's always been, you come back from when you're very young and watching the Italian football one all those years ago. Like that had a big influence on me when I was young. And a lot of people in my generation, I would say. So no, it's fascinating to go outside. There's nothing wrong with our leagues, obviously. We have the biggest, we have the world's league here. But again, I would love to see some British coaches go abroad and do so well. And in a week where obviously we've seen Graham Potter lose his job, we'll just not forget the journey that Graham went on as well to get to the position he's in.

15:35Mark:And I would love to see more British coaches doing that.

15:38unknown guest:I was just yesterday reading an article, I don't know if you saw it, about Liam Rossini, who's out at Strasbourg at the moment and doing well. And he was talking about, you know, when the question obviously comes up, oh, would you like to go back and manage in England? And his argument was kind of, well, I'm not in a hurry to do that. And I guess the foreign coaches that do come here, similarly, you've learned so much from Michael. And you've worked with Jurgen Klopp, Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti, or worked around those people. What did you pick up from all those different styles of coaching and management?

16:10Mark:Well, to be fair, when we was at Chelsea, it was fantastic. The things dripped down from all those managers. There was obviously, as you say, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Hiddink as well. He was a fantastic coach. And then working much more closer at Liverpool with Jurgen Klopp as the under-23s coach underneath him when he came in. A lot of those guys defensively had similar ideas, had some strict rules around defending, and then you make the team about your best players. And each team is unique, and you bring that to it. They were all fantastic communicators, and they came with fantastic CVs as well.

16:45Mark:The one thing I would say about Jurgen is he just fitted exactly the culture and what the fans wanted to see, his personality. It was like a perfect match, so the alignment all the way through the club. But as a young Chelsea fan, I always remember that first press conference.

17:00Gabby:We have top players. I'm sorry, I'm a bit arrogant. We have a top manager. I'm European champion, so I'm not one of the bottle. I think I'm a special one.

17:11Mark:And the big thing about Jose was the way that he was coaching back then. You know, we're talking over 20 years now, but it was light years ahead of anything that anybody had seen. Why? It was his organisation and his delegation across the staff, but the organisation, the layout of the sessions and the belief he gave those young players. Now we look back and we say, what a wonderful group Chelsea had. But at the time, it was a group that had potential. It hadn't realised that. And in the years afterwards, we know that Chelsea went on to do some fantastic things. But it was the energy that he had that came down to a lot of us in the academy and there were some fantastic people in chelsea's academy over the years that have gone on whether that's paul clement who's now obviously assistant manager of brazil national team which is again you know is that promoted enough that we have an english guy doing that uh obviously steve holland who's done very well and steve clark also was in the academy back then brendan rogers so we're very fortunate but at both clubs liverpool as well the clubs don't just produce players they produce coaches as well so the influence on us is huge Where do you think we are at with coaching managers at the moment?

18:21Gabby:Because I think we've talked about this as well, Gabby. We appear to be at another crossroads in coaching again. And you mentioned Hiddink and Ancelotti and Klopp and to a certain extent Mourinho, who on the outside seem very much man managers first and very flexible as well. now we're in an era where every player seems to be drilled within an inch of their lives and individual flair maybe isn't encouraged but now are we going back the other way?

18:54Mark:I think there's a reaction in football to you know football turns in cycles so if I'm looking the last two or three weeks we've seen Haaland having half the pitch to run into whether that's the goal against Manchester United the goal against Arsenal we've also seen the big clubs paying huge respect towards set plays. You know, really, you know, obviously there's the set play coaches now, but the big clubs are investing a lot of time in that, where before it was maybe the unfancied clubs that really needed the set plays to work from. I think when you go into any club, obviously you have your ideas, but then a club that you're going into as a culture, the way to fancy the game that's maybe over 100 years old.

19:32Mark:So you have to understand that. It's your ideas times that, plus then the players you're going to inherit. and the beautiful thing about football is each team is unique so I think defensively you can have some really strict rules about the way that you want to go about it but then you have you have to allow your best players in possession to bring their personality to the team that's the beauty of coaching but I think you have to be really excited about the team you're going to coach not so excited about I'm going to go in and implement my way I think you have to combine the too. So certainly when I'm looking at jobs, do I like the team?

20:07Mark:Am I excited about the players I'm going to go to work with every day? That has to be part of your decision making for sure.

20:13unknown guest:And what about the actual job itself? Because we now have these incredible structures at clubs where you have directors of football. Stephen Gerrard's quote about you that it would take him 15 to 20 years to be as good an on-pitch coach as you are, it really struck me as kind of a demarcation almost of roles that can you can you be a manager who is on the pitch every day delivering exciting sessions because that's one of the other things that your philosophy is about enjoying the sessions and do all that other stuff but it's certainly it's a management team and I

20:44Mark:certainly feel that the the 16 years at Chelsea Liverpool in the academies has helped me understand all the roles of recruitment sports science analysis that helps me my unique subject if you like is field coaching I'm a young coach I'm a young manager I want to be on the pitch developing the players that's how I've I've came up in the game I really think it helps if you have a sporting director above you and you know maybe a few years ago we had old school managers or managers from years before that never had that structure a little bit more tender on that I feel completely different the relationship I had with Les Ferdinand and Ross Wilson in the time at QPR Rangers before Ross obviously moved on was fantastic for me in terms of those were the guys that managed a lot of the departments that kept me fresh and energetic and on the pitch every day and that's the most important thing.

21:35Mark:When I worked with Stephen he was absolutely fantastic at delegation. It gave him time to be around on the important bits, it managed his energy. At Rangers we were playing 66 games a season roughly because so many qualifiers in the Europa League at the time that we was playing so many games every free day so for that for a club at that size the amount of media that you have to do I thought he selected really well and Gary McAllister played a big part in that as well because obviously senior to both me and Stephen and the rest of the staff ex-Scotland captain knew a lot of people in the in the country knew a lot of the of the way Scottish football worked and as I say I think that that was a big example to me of how to put a management team together what Stephen did there.

22:20Your career has been fascinating really

22:24Gabby:already from from assistant coaching in Brazil to the academies that you've been at to the managers that you've worked under to then the jobs that you have had yourself you know QPR and Sunderland and Rangers but that's also led to some really bruising experiences. What would you describe yourself as now? And how does that affect looking for a role? Because we talk head coaches, managers, Gabby's already mentioned all the different things that go into being the leader of a football club. What are you?

23:04Mark:I'm a manager for sure, or a head coach, underneath a structure where your focus is on the football and the football technical staff every day. I love working with players on the pitch. I was 45 last week, so I'm feeling a little bit tender in terms of age. But in terms of my career as a manager, I feel I'm at the start. With all that experience behind me, I must be a better manager for it. The experience I had at QPR and the way it went so quick and the noise around that, I was 14 games into my first role and already you're getting linked with stuff in the Premier League and then a big move back to Rangers seven or eight games later.

23:41Mark:The way things started at Rangers...

23:43Gabby:You turned walls down, didn't you, at that point?

23:45Mark:Yeah, I'd spoke to Wolves or Wolves had made contact with QPR and there was a discussion, but I was very happy at QPR. You know, I felt that the owners were excellent. We had a way of working. I never thought for one minute Rangers would come back so quickly that they did. And my family were living in the city and it was a decision made with a heart. I went back and we started off fantastic. We won 18, drew one, lost one. So it shows you how a start doesn't always, it's the longevity of that. but what a privilege if you as a young manager in in my first two years of being a senior head coach I've managed in front of 52 ,000 every week at Ibrox and the the the fantastic responsibility that is and obviously a shorter period at Sunderland with with 40 plus thousand the biggest team in the championship in terms of attendance they're fantastic opportunities and I'm definitely a better manager and coach for it I was a coach before before I became the QPR manager I was an assistant coach so I thought I could be a manager I thought I understood it but it's different when you're in the shoes of the role and and the roles that I've had for a young British manager have been big clubs you know to start off with.

24:52unknown guest:Ultimately you are the person that does the interview on match of the day you want to be whatever the name is you want to be the person that takes responsibility and carries the can and as we see at the moment because culling season seems to have started doesn't it in the Premier League certainly you've just got to have the thickest skin to know that you can go again you know so so that your your copy book isn't blotted you know so like Nuno Espirito Santo is let go two weeks ago two weeks later he gets another Premier League club it feels like the churn is slightly different these days and it doesn't maybe damage your reputation in the way that in the past it used to be the case that you know manager would disappear for a while before they came back well when I went to Brazil the average

25:33Mark:term for a manager there was 15 games so we're doing okay I think it's eight months here but yeah no but like you grow up in an environment as a young coach at Chelsea in Liverpool whereas it's a development plan for young academy players so you're always um what you're the work you're putting in now you want to harvest tomorrow or later on so one thing I would say with football clubs is sometimes they could communicate above the manager the exact journey that they're on and be honest because I think that gives managers some the manager some oxygen it's difficult because there is a short-termism in football and the media and everything around it our game is as I say it's the world's league the premier league so there's such a focus on it there's only 20 managers in that league at one moment but everybody wants to get into that league you know coaches and players from around the world the clubs where there is some stability we've seen that over time then you can build that philosophy within the club the manager is just one person it's interesting that

26:27Gabby:you mentioned the fans on any new project for you how much of a concern would a fan base be for you and look not none of us are daft in in this you know I look at I look go back to Graham Potter you know I think there was probably excitement when he got the job at Chelsea because of the work that he'd done I think West Ham were quite happy fans were quite happy to have him when he got that the next job he gets the fan base might be a little bit questionable because of what's happened that there are certain clubs where let's be honest that's like that would likely happen to you wouldn't it because of Rangers and Sunderland they aren't going to go oh he had a great start 1-18 drew one lost one at Rangers so how much does that play into it because you have to back

27:14Mark:yourself to win them over don't you yeah look I went in after Tony Moba at Sunderland it wasn't easy my um how i digest that a little bit is i believe that the the club would have would have understood their fan base a little bit better in that moment you know obviously it was difficult for everybody and ultimately that was one of the the biggest reasons why maybe we parted because

27:36Gabby:he had to step back for health reasons tony didn't he no it was after that yeah okay so the team had

27:42Mark:gone for a rough patch but the fans really liked tony so the fans have a huge it's their club ultimately it's the fans club and and and they go and they support their team passionately if they're very very passionate about a previous manager i like that because that shows that you know they get behind their people that work for their club and then you know as a manager you can only go into the room and show and demonstrate what you want to do your record i think graham's record of where he's come from and when he's had time and stability to build i I think the job he did at Ostersund's was incredible.

28:14Mark:Fantastic background story. He goes into Brighton with stability in that environment. I think he's an excellent coach. The last two jobs have been a little bit different, and I'm sure he'd say that himself, but that doesn't take away from, I think he's a very, very decent person that comes across in every interview.

28:31Gabby:Oh, 100%. But you know what fans are. You just know if you have a couple of, in inverted commas, failures, all of a sudden the enthusiasm for a fan base, depending on, I suppose, where they are within the football pyramid or even where they are geographically, then that alters how people view you, doesn't it? I mean, you know, it might be easier to, I don't know, let me pick somebody. It might be easier to go and do Sampdoria, for example, than, say, Norwich.

29:01Mark:Yeah, I think now the footprint of the internet follows you everywhere. So everyone knows your big high moments. Everyone knows your moments where it didn't go well. So people will know that I had 72 % win percentage at Rangers, which wasn't enough. And people will know that, you know, the week before at Sunderland we were fifth in the league, then we lost to the two teams down the bottom and you come out. It is football management. What I would say is you have to be all in and you have to be really relentless in your work because things can change in three or four days, you know. And that's what I've noticed from friends in football as well, that work in other teams.

29:35Mark:you sense it so much more when it's your friend than it's you mark because you're in the job and you're doing the job and you're just bouncing from game to game with your staff and obviously you're working you're so focused on the group of players and the club you're working in when you're sat back and you see your friend go for it for example or someone you know in the game it's so much more personal then you see every comment and everything and it's a wonderful sport that we're in and the media is a big part of it well the one thing i

30:06Gabby:would say sorry did you see it you know when you were fifth and then lost the lost two games to

30:11Mark:teams at the bottom did you see it coming there was a lot of things in the background my niece wasn't well and the fans had done a wonderful thing but no going into the wednesday and the saturday fixtures i never saw it but the the noise in the background and i don't think that's good for any club I think when it's you're at that stage ultimately you know I see other coaches when you're in it you're just trying to work and you honestly believe you're going to win the next game and up to half time in my last game at Sunderland we were winning one deal and playing very well at Birmingham so you can't you know 45 minutes is a long time in football as we know sometimes even less I think there's a lot of pressure on the managers with the amount of interviews so if you're doing two broadcasts and you're doing the pre and your in-house tv and you're doing the media conference that's four before a game four after so there's eight if you're playing three games a week there's only so much you can say i believe that now there's there's really high profile sporting directors and chief execs and ownerships and you know foreign ownership in our game as well they have to set the uh the vision then i think that helps the manager go on that journey i think in some clubs we're seeing that's not so clear and then we don't know if a manager's done a good job or not it's not just so much of what happens on the pitch on a Saturday there could be a lot of things behind the scenes that that a manager's working on I'm

31:28unknown guest:thinking about Nottingham Forest a little bit there because obviously that was played out in a very interesting way wasn't it because it was the manager doing a lot of the talking the club weren't talking very much and then he was dismissed when you see a situation you know kind of evolving like that is that what you're you're talking you kind of know what's going on at the club as somebody who's been through those kinds of experiences well yeah because you look we want

31:52Mark:to be leaders as managers that's our job our job is to be frontline and center in terms of leading the vision and inside the club and you're trying to communicate that outside to the fans as well um i just i just feel that the managers obviously are under a lot of pressure where it's a really privileged role let me get right i love everything about being a manager i can't wait to jump back in for example it's it's what you think about every minute of every day but if you look there at Nottingham Forest there's so many positives over the last 12 to 18 months it's great to see Nottingham Forest back where they deserve to be to be honest after so many years but getting into Europe as well the amount of young players that did well and young Nico Williams I'd worked with him at Liverpool it's great to see him playing Olerena at Chelsea Callum Hudson-Odoi at Chelsea So seeing these guys, you know, we see Elliot Anderson now.

32:42Mark:They obviously took him from Newcastle. He looks fantastic for England and Nottingham Forest. So it wasn't a club that needed any drama. Obviously, I was surprised outside that obviously how quick that moved. It moved very, very quickly, didn't it?

32:55Gabby:I spoke to Michael Skibala last week, who's Lincoln manager, before they played Chelsea. the balance when you're managing lower down about developing these young talents and then being sad that they leave you but then really proud that they get a really a really big move but I can see that with you there's you've got a real sort of glow about you to be honest when you talk about the young players that you've obviously had an influence on yeah it's fantastic to see young

33:27Mark:boys go on to fulfill their dream you know you always talk about the you versus yourself so you which type of player you're trying to be, or would your teammates pick you? There's a great conversation to have with these young players. Would your teammates pick you and why? It's one that I always have when you get the players come to your office asking why they're not playing or not. But it's fantastic to see the journeys the young players have had. I think there's great stories, but just lastly on the football league managers. Now, there's where the real managers are, Mark, because 46 games up and down in the football league, up and down the motorway, none of the flights, none of the fantastic hotels, none of the big budgets.

34:03Mark:There's some wonderful stories in our AFL.

34:05unknown guest:We've got quite a good record on the sports agents, Michael, of people who are in between work coming on and then getting a job quite quickly afterwards. Chris Wilder was the latest one. I think he was appointed within about a week, wasn't he, of being on the sports agents. So you're being linked with Wickham, Wickham Wanderers at the moment. Is that something that excites you?

34:28Mark:I think they have a new ownership there, which is really exciting. in it I'm a London boy so I know a little bit about Wickham going through but I think Michael Duff's gone in there I like Michael I think he again he's had the roller coaster of management as well did fantastic in a couple of jobs had one job that didn't go so well for him and but Wickham's a club that's in the right place I was very sad to see Mike Dodds leave his job he was actually one of my assistants at Sunderland as well so the phone rings and it's number withheld is that a good sign for you well the phone rings for some because I'm because I'm so open to working overseas as well Gabby I've said that a lot you know my phone rings for some very exotic and crazy places sometimes and my wife would like a bit more stability she loves we live in Loch Lomond she loves it there so she's I don't know if she's so happy when the phone's ringing but I'm certainly looking forward to it ringing for something that I think is suitable So you're not going to

35:20unknown guest:Cairo Almaty then?

35:22Mark:No definitely not going to Cairo Almaty anytime soon

35:25Gabby:Would you consider Saudi again? What was working over there in football like?

35:33Mark:Fascinating. Fascinating to learn about the culture. Obviously, you have the five prayers and day, so training around that. The league's very, very interesting. Obviously, you're allowed eight foreign players, two under 21 foreign players in your squad. So I think that everybody spent a lot of money to build the squad. Now, them players are set. The big clubs, when you go into the stadiums, it's like going to play Europa League or Champions League games. So your Nassars, your Itiads, you know, the quality of those teams. You know, you look at the moment, Ronaldo, Mane, Kingsley Coman, Jao Felix in the same team.

36:07Mark:Benzema's got Diaby, Kante, Fabinho. These are Champions League finalist teams. But each league's so difficult. You know, people have asked me about Sao Paulo. Where would they be? Where would Itiad and Nassar be in Europe? You know, where would Rangers and Celtic be in the Premier League? Each league's really difficult. the travel in there obviously the heat you cannot play the same intensity that you play here in Europe but yeah it's fascinating the game's growing the investment's big the moment there's a big focus on recruiting staff and facilities in the academies and the training grounds so where this is going to lead to is only positive and I'm sure they'll have some bumps in the road but as we saw when Halal played in the club world cup they played to a very good level we've tapped into

36:52unknown guest:a lot there so um good luck with with everything and i expect a week do you reckon mark will be

36:58Gabby:yeah we yeah yeah i mean the thing with chris wilde was he also did a couple of radio shifts with me so then by the end of that that was that was kind of like three shows and more than enough he was desperate to get back in so yeah yeah week two weeks and you'll be working with you for a

37:13unknown guest:season wasn't it it was a pleasure to come on thank you for having me as well thank you take care

37:20Mark:Thank you. The Sports Agents.

37:25Mark:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

37:32unknown guest:So a big thank you to Michael Beal for sitting down. And it was fascinating to listen to his thoughts and philosophies. And, you know, you can't help thinking that he's going to be in a job soon. And not just because he's been on the Sports Agents.

37:43Gabby:Well, no, not just because he's been. But he's a student of the game. I just love, as so many of them are, to be fair to them, And he's going around Europe watching these games and making notes. And it will be interesting to see where he ends up next.

37:56unknown guest:Tomorrow, we have a special episode that is going to drop with Boris Becker, the three-time Wimbledon champion, all about his time in prison after he was declared bankrupt, was found to have hidden assets. He goes into that. He talks about the sums involved and how you get into that kind of state, really, when you seem to have everything. And you have a lot of money at the end of your career. How do you get to that position? But also, as he said, Mark, going into prison, being scared shitless. Yeah, I cannot think of anybody that I have interviewed in recent years

38:34Gabby:where when you get the brief, he's not that bothered about talking about the sport. He wants to talk about everything that's happened to him. Normally, isn't it, Gabby, with these people? Normally people go, can you lay off everything that's gone on away from the sport? just talk about sport. He was the complete opposite with Boris.

38:52unknown guest:He was great. And he's now fighting to be allowed back into the UK. And you can hear him tomorrow. Remember to hit subscribe or follow so you don't miss that one.

39:02Gabby:And we do have our Q &A episode coming. So email us your questions, thesportsagentsatglobal.com or you can drop us a message on social media or via the link in the show notes.

39:12unknown guest:Thanks for listening.

39:13Gabby:The Sports Agents

39:14Mark:with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. You