Andy Farrell: Leading the Lions & being the ultimate 'rugby dad'

10:59Andy Farrell:Let me ask you, having a son when you were so young, forget the coach-player thing, just a father-son relationship when there is only 16 years between you. My son's 22 and I'm 52, and I love the relationship I have with him. I adore it. I adore the adult relationship. and talking sport and having a beer and so on and so forth. But there's still a big age gap between the two of us.

11:28Gabby Logan:Well, it's brilliant. We tend to like the same things as well. Tend to disagree and argue and bicker like mates would do along the way until he realises he's talking to his dad, so we put him into place, etc. But it is father and son and we talk and we catch up on that basis along without the rugby all the time.

11:54Mark Pougatch:Let's talk a bit more about rugby and off the back of a very successful Lions tour. I want to know what it meant to you to be in that, in that capacity as head coach, because you've done it all with Ireland, maybe not won a World Cup yet, but you've transformed a country's rugby team that was just not getting over the line. And then you set yourself another challenge to take this Lions team down to Australia. what did it test in you as a coach?

12:21Gabby Logan:That's a good question because that was probably one of the reasons why I took the job and was delighted to get the job and a dream come true and all of that because I knew how challenging it would be because I've been lucky enough because of Gatts, Warren Gatland to be selected as an assistant coach on the 2013 and 2017 tours. I love that type of thing to try and just throw yourself into it and let's see what we can do with it. I always think the bigger the opportunity, the more you should walk towards it. It's daunted enough to take on a role like that, but that should never ever get in the way of taking it head on.

13:07Andy Farrell:What is the biggest challenge though? Is it a cultural challenge? Is it a coaching challenge? Are they interlinked anyhow?

13:16Gabby Logan:Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's everything thrown into the pot, really. I mean, the cultural challenge, as in all the nations coming together, and that is way easier than what people think, because when you get the best of the best, all they're trying to do is gain respect of one another, even though they're competing and competing hard against each other internationally and at club level. There's a respect anyway. So they're trying to find out about each other. How do you go about this? I see that you do that. And then the friendships just forge on the back of that respect. That's easier. I suppose more of the challenge, certainly in this day and age, is that a Lions tour in comparison to day-to-day life as far as a rugby league professional player nowadays is way off the mark as far as the tradition of three games a week or the flying, the moving round, doing all the stuff that you're asked to do is so alien to these guys.

14:19Gabby Logan:a six-day turnaround now not a seven-day turnaround there's there's panic you know um i'm exaggerating a little bit but no you you can imagine but there's routine handy the small things professionalism has gone through the roof and there's there's all sorts of ways that you go about um preparing yourself properly because because you care so much as a professional of what you what a week looks like to get yourself prepared and all of that goes out the window and then when you couple that together with the last tour which was the Lions tour to South Africa which was COVID you soon realise that 90 % of the squad has been nowhere near this type of situation before so it was going to be interesting to see how everyone coped and this is not just players by the way this is the whole shebang the whole group and there's 92 of us or something like that and getting the right people on the bus on the plane is the most important thing because people who are going to go outside their own remits, their own silos, who are going to muck in just for the good of the team, it spreads like wildfire.

15:30Gabby Logan:And once you've got that, once you've got that, you've got a hell of a place in a circle.

15:37Mark Pougatch:And you've been very good at building teams and creating environments, winning environments. So I'm sure you've got kind of already almost the recipe in terms of bringing those individuals together. and then as you pointed out it's brutal so you're going to have to bring players in late to replace players and one of those players turned out to be Owen and you know he's going to cope with that right yeah did you have any kind of feelings of having to almost persuade anybody within the group look I know he's my son but or you know how did that dynamic work Gabby that was a great link that was that was fantastic that was a fantastic link no I didn't I didn't have to do that um I

16:14Gabby Logan:I suppose, you know, the coaches and everyone else, you know, everyone knows what each other's made of and, you know, what makes them tick and what they could or they couldn't bring to any type of group. An Alliance tour is a little bit unique because of that, what you said. There's going to be people that drop out through injury. There's going to be people that need to be able to back up in two, maybe three positions and and it becomes a a little bit of a different feel it's it's your job as a coaching staff and certainly my job as a as a head coach to make sure that we've got all

16:51Mark Pougatch:those all those bases covered nice to see him I'm sure though all the same um I just a little aside I did a Q &A with Henry Pollock who told us because he had to room with Owen when he arrived yeah and when Owen walked into the room um he said I just didn't know what to say to him so I locked myself in the toilet for 20 minutes, which I mean, knowing Henry as I do, and you now know, you can't imagine him even being quiet for 20 minutes, but that's the effect your son has though.

17:15Gabby Logan:I'm sure that when he came out of the toilet, the rest of the two and a half weeks that go, when the 20 minutes were behind him, were a little bit of fun. I would love to ask Owen that similar question. What did you think of Henry the first time you walked into the room? I suppose it'd be a completely different story.

17:33Mark Pougatch:The way they project themselves publicly, though, very different characters, you know, and I think that leads us on.

17:38Gabby Logan:Chalk and cheese comes to mind, that's for sure.

17:39Mark Pougatch:Well, that leads us on, I think, Mark, doesn't it, to kind of rugby's kind of moment here, where they're at in terms of, you know, the Henry Pollock type characters who are out there attracting attention, being, you know, big characters, and then the traditional kind of rugby idea that nobody's bigger than anybody else in that team. Is there room for both?

17:57Gabby Logan:Oh, 100 % there is. and that's why the sport's so appealing to a wider audience, I would have thought. I mean, just look at the sport in general. I mean, you know, it caters for all shapes and sizes, different abilities, and certainly personalities and the mix of them all coming together. That makes it exciting. It'd all be dull, wouldn't it, if we were all the same?

18:21Andy Farrell:Do you think we've gone through an era, Andy, of trying to stamp out individualism? I'm not just talking about Rugby Union. The great Wigan teams, to switch it to the other code, whether it's Ellery Hanley or Martin Fyre, or Jonathan Davis, who wasn't at Wigan, obviously, but the individuals who got people off their seats.

18:42Gabby Logan:I still think we've got them, definitely, and I think what you're saying is, are you saying that we should celebrate them a little bit more? Yeah, yeah. Not in my teams anyway would that ever be nothing but the case. I suppose the biggest thing that you learn as a coach when you've come from the playing side, like I did, was that you realise that you've 50 other lads that are completely different to you and you've got to understand what it is that makes them tick and that's the sweet spot I would have thought really. Allow people to be themselves and give the best version of themselves for the group and therefore the team flourishes because of that.

19:25Gabby Logan:And yeah, we had some characters on tour and I suppose people are a little bit more guarded as well because of social media and being burnt and all of that. But I think the stories will start to come out, chap, in as far as the characters within that tour. I've been around a few different spots lately and I've heard some more stories, So I'm sure you'll soon understand that they're all not pieces of wood.

19:54Mark Pougatch:That documentary, which is one of the first of its kind of the 97 tour that was a real behind the scenes warts and all that gave a real appetite then for those kinds of peeks behind the curtain. You know what it is to be in that unbelievable environment. You've talked about how the communication now has changed and how you communicate differently as a head coach, perhaps to the one who might have talked about getting yourself in the hurt locker. and how, you know, or the Hurt Closet. I can't remember what it was.

20:20Gabby Logan:I don't know neither. I've tried to forget it. I've tried to forget it. Yeah, it sends shivers down my spine, that Gabby, anyway.

20:26Mark Pougatch:But what precipitated that change? Just a realisation that society was changing.

20:31Gabby Logan:Yeah, and you realise that rugby players are not rocket scientists. They want to know what you really think. And, you know, if you're trying to be someone that you're not, they see through that straight away. So they just want it straight from the hip and real. They want you to be yourself, and that's easy to follow rather than something that's fake. I'm not saying fake because you've had a good think about it, but as a coach, you can sometimes get yourself too caught up in this has to be Churchillian, and it doesn't. The Churchillian speeches might resonate with you that, wow, that was good, but then you forget about the training session that's on the field.

21:16Gabby Logan:So you're just trying to get some reality towards it all, and I think that's more comfortable for everyone.

21:21Andy Farrell:I was very struck by an interview Matt Peet did, Andy, before the grand final, and we've had Matt on this show and never hide the fact of just how amazing I think he is and the job that he has done. He's just been himself, 100%. Yeah, 100%. But his interview talked about he can't thank his players enough for being there for him and his wife when she went through two miscarriages. And how there is a hierarchy in the sense of you are the head coach, but socially and how you are as people, you're all in it together. It was a brilliant interview.

22:00Gabby Logan:It 100 % is like that. And that's how it should be because there shouldn't be a hierarchy that the head coach just sits there and everyone's absolutely terrified him things that things have changed changed massively in that regard i remember i mean obviously uh i'm a little bit connected there because colleen's brother's still still coaching there sean and i know what a family family club it is and it's the way that i work i used to bring going everywhere with me he was only four like you know three four or whatever and he was just part of the furniture and then fast forward to where we are now and I find it a privilege that I'm able to do the same with my youngest Gabriel I bring him there but there's a reason for that I think I think you know professional sport it gets so et up sometimes in the pressurized bubble that is performance and winning and everything that goes about it and you soon forget if you don't cop on to yourself what's behind the person what the real person's drive is and that tends to be just the normal stuff doesn't it family yeah kids you're a father I think it's pretty important that people see me not as a coach or a head coach that they they see that there's something bigger

23:18Mark Pougatch:going on in people's lives you said um cop on there and I think that's quite a useful way of kind of talking about coming from the north to the south because you know you never lose those

23:29Gabby Logan:expressions do you honestly i was back in wigan yesterday and i see myself as as broad as anything like i i hate listening that's why i won't be watching this podcast by the way i hate listening to myself so i don't know you guys do it but i hate listening to myself and i think i'm as broad as anything which i obviously am but the amount of the amount of people went back into the room after we did a bit of a bit of talking oh andy you can hear the irish twang the irish accent i'm

23:58Mark Pougatch:going oh come on now come on because i was minded when you said that when you first came down to london and you were switching codes and you drove past harrods and you felt like dell boy and and and that kind of i always think of like crocodile dundee when when exactly yeah i always accuse that i say that about kenny who my husband who came from a farm in scotland to a flat that wasps got him at chelsea harbour and i said oh my it must have literally been like crocodile dundee what

24:24Gabby Logan:the head he probably didn't appreciate it neither he'd probably not have got a clue kenny where he was at chelsea harbour like you know this is way too small for me i need space it's rubbish where are the cows so when you came down apart from that kind of oh my gosh bright

24:39Mark Pougatch:lights big city and you're then changing you know a sport effectively as well aren't you how did you handle that in terms of what you did with your personality or did you just Were you your authentic self? Could you just be Andy?

24:55Gabby Logan:It's interesting because that's what should happen. But I have no doubt because of the lack of experience of that. I'd only stayed in Wigan all my life, you know, and loved absolutely everything about that. And the best part about Wigan is the community. Not many people leave because, you know, they're happy with the family, the community, everyone looking after one another. It's a brilliant place to live. So you're like a fish out of water when you do leave there. And I suppose, Gabby, you do bend a little bit. Not that you should do. Like, for example, my girls were, I always get this wrong, so that's why I always get told off.

25:37Gabby Logan:I think they were like seven and four or something like that and went to school. I remember on the first day of picking them up from school, back in the car, they had a completely different accent, Completely different. Like, real posh, like, you know, because they're trying to fit in and trying to be understood. That was the only reason. And they've continued to do that, by the way. Whereas Owen, I think he goes back and speaks to his nan and grandad all the time just for wigging lessons, you know, just to keep the accent going. So I think subconsciously you do bend a little bit. Not that that's right.

26:15Gabby Logan:Are the daughters bath and grass, then? They stand corrected. they stand corrected on that quite a quite a number of times you know um i'll send them to

26:23Andy Farrell:your host chappers that's what i'll do yeah honestly my two eldest were born in london and the one thing i won't let them ever do is do bath and they could they could say they were born in london it's fine but it's bath and grass now you're back in the north back and grass when you did that move did you feel like there was a target on your back not because you were northern i mean because you were coming from league to year. Because I think when Big Sam, when Sam Burgess did it, it was definitely a target on his back as well, which maybe there wasn't when Jason did it, when Jason Robinson did it.

26:58Andy Farrell:It felt a different time when he did it, maybe. I don't know. Jason, if I remember rightly,

27:04Gabby Logan:Jason, Gary Connolly, Henry Paul, they had smaller stints beforehand, like 12-week stints, a heloquines, Bath, Munster, all of that. But they were different players. to me and Sam. They were out-and-out backs, speedsters, like Kenny. They were athletic, scoring tries. Our jobs, certainly my job, was team tactics, unlocking defences, ball playing, all of that, which is completely different. And there wasn't really a position that suited me. I was a loose forward in rugby league, the link between the backs and the forwards, to try and learn that in no time at all because that was towards the end of my career.

27:47Gabby Logan:coming down the stairs most mornings on my backside. So to try and learn to play on your instinct in such a tough position, which I would have been more suited to number eight or number six, but trying to learn the intricacies of set-piece play, line-out ball, scrum, breakdown, all of that, you're learning it and you understand it, but playing on your instinct is completely different. So therefore, they put you at centre. And yes, it's easier to learn and quicker to manage, etc. But I wasn't at centre. I wasn't quick enough. I didn't have the speed or the guile like a Gary Connolly had.

28:29Mark Pougatch:We talk a lot on this podcast, Andy, about rugby on the edge of change yet again, you know, and clubs obviously have gone under in the premiership. And then you look at Wales now potentially going from four regions to four clubs down to two, four regions, whatever you want to call them. They're potentially on the verge of that. It seems like it's always on the edge of something. And then R360 comes along and the unions have made it clear, many of the unions, that they will not allow players to play in that and play for their country. So it seems to be at the moment in a state that's in a state of flux.

28:59Mark Pougatch:Is that happening? Isn't it? Where are you on what the sport actually needs? What would, what for you would be a good development, something that could improve the lot for players? Because you've seen it, you know, with your own son, obviously he's gone off to France and played for a while, which is what players sometimes do. And they should have the right to earn as much as they can. But is that the answer? Just to keep letting players leave the unions?

29:20Gabby Logan:I don't know, because my position as Ireland head coach, We try and make sure that we cover all bases of what it means to be Irish and play for your country. And we're pretty lucky in the sense that the whole nation buys into that. So we don't have the same problem as in that many people wanting to leave. Yeah, it's a little bit disjointed, isn't it? When you look at it, just in reality, just from the outside looking in really, you know, why are the Irish playing against Scotland and a couple of Wales teams that's going to be and Italy and South Africa and then the premierships playing on their own and there's a new season that's happening internationally now there's going to be New Zealand and South Africa are having a mini Lions series it seems a little bit all over the place as far as that's concerned But there's far more political reasons towards all that that I'm clever enough to understand and know.

30:25Gabby Logan:You're just happy Ireland have got it sorted, really, aren't you? Basically, yeah. Let's just leave it at that.

30:31Andy Farrell:Although it is interesting, isn't it, Andy? You know, with both codes, you've got one code where the international game is so strong and domestically they keep trying to work out what they're going to do on the union side of things. And then on the league side, Super League's had one of its, if you take away the Salford shenanigans, Super League's had one of its, I think, one of its better seasons, really. And Hull K.R. winning it is a great story. Yet internationally, Rugby League has always felt as if it's trying to play catch-up. We haven't had England, Australia, or even Great Britain, Australia, for such a long time.

31:07Andy Farrell:And at long last, we get that back in the next month. I cannot wait. Are you going to any? I cannot wait.

31:14Gabby Logan:Well, I was asked to call in and go down and I wanted to take it. I mean, look at the venues. It's amazing. And for two decades now, we've been dying to get the show back on the road as far as that's concerned. But I'm working. And yeah, the season's lap over towards the end is a little bit frustrating in the sense that I'm busy enough living the dream in Chicago playing against the mighty All Blacks, you know. So I'm busy enough. And then when we come back, there's the small added bonus to play Japan, Australia and South Africa as well in the autumn. So I've got my own headaches, you can imagine, but I certainly am going to miss out.

32:03Gabby Logan:But I wish them all the best, that's for sure.

32:05Mark Pougatch:Andy, I read an interesting article the other day about England's coaching setup. And the premise was it kind of, the writer went back to 2015 and that coaching staff that were there in that World Cup of which you were part of, headed up by Stuart Lancaster. And the argument that kind of came through the article was that England should have just stuck with that setup and shouldn't have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and should have just trusted a bit more. And now, if you're not going to talk to me about the future of the club game in England, I doubt you're going to tell me that that would have been a good idea.

32:39Gabby Logan:Well, listen, I mean, imagine if they had a stuck and it hadn't gone well, then you can't win really. Nobody can predict the future, can they really? I suppose the only thing that you can do if you are involved is learn from the past and use that to your advantage and try and move on from that.

32:58Mark Pougatch:What did you learn through being part of that coaching session?

33:03Gabby Logan:Absolutely, loads of stuff really. still stuff that shapes you as a head coach now in regards to the World Cup itself, as in myself and Stuart spoke about this many times, and Stuart's wrote about it anyway in regards to numbers, time, competition for places, hotels. We actually stayed in Pennyhill and whether we should have got out into London like the All Blacks were doing and soaking it up and feeling part of it.

33:29Mark Pougatch:They were wandering around Hyde Park, weren't they? And kind of having these incredible crowds following them.

33:34Gabby Logan:embracing it all yeah yeah you learn all these things and and take those lessons take those

33:40Andy Farrell:lessons with you that's for sure we will let you go but gabby did set a challenge at the start of the interview whether we were going to make you laugh and we've we've made you laugh for a few times so i'm actually always laughing i'm actually always laughing i always laughing yeah i do tell this story a lot though andy in a previous interview with you when i when i did after you'd one man of steel and i said did you ever look in the mirror and just look at yourself and go yeah you're the man of steel and you just went to me no i was lying though chap as i actually did at the

34:11Mark Pougatch:i didn't i'd like colleen to tell us whether or not you did but she's not here today she shoots

34:22Gabby Logan:me down every day she shoots me down i feel pathetic doing a great job lovely to have you

34:28Andy Farrell:with us. Great to see you. Thank you so much.

34:30Mark Pougatch:Thanks for having us.

34:31Andy Farrell:Thank you. And Andy's book, Andy Farrell, The Only Way I Know is out on Thursday. Before we go, they finally found a way around stadium alcohol bans and it involves cranes. The Sports Agents

34:47Andy Farrell:The Sports Agents

34:49Gabby Logan:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman

34:54Andy Farrell:So this is because four fans were put on a sort of crane platform and put 50 meters into the air to watch Salford against Chesterfield. And it was done by a whiskey company to get around a stadium alcohol ban. And within the football pyramid, there is a cutoff of where you can have a drink. So I experienced this at Altrincham. When I used to go watch Altrincham, when they were in the National League North, you could have a beer by the side and just watch the game. then they get promoted to the National League and the fan zone is now behind a wall so that you can have a pint pre-match and at half-time or in the community hall but then the shutters come down as soon as kick-off starts so you could do it in the National League North but one tier above you can't do it in the it's weird and in the WSL there are seven grounds, seven stadiums where fans can have a drink

35:54Mark Pougatch:it's not very consistent no the WSL trial was four grounds last season and that went well so they've increased it to seven this season so you know who knows if this crane went well if all those fans behave themselves you know maybe we're doing those four fans an injustice

36:15Andy Farrell:maybe actually they wanted a better tactical view of the game like Luis Enrique has a Paris size man with his little crane platform and it just so happened that there was some whiskey

36:26Mark Pougatch:on that at the same time yeah which which helped any fear of heights that any of them may have had um i was speaking to somebody who's a fan of chesham united i think right national south and he said i stopped going to premier league and you know championship football because i wanted to drink uh ground that's why i started going to watch their games and it's a local team as well and he wanted to support them.

36:48Andy Farrell:I mean, there is that dilemma. It's the promotion, or do you just want a nice pint if you're in National League North or South? Do you just want a couple of beers and to watch your football, or do you want to go up the football pyramid? So that's a difficult dilemma for some. Mind you, I can think of some Premier League teams where I'd probably need 10 pints just to get through their performances at the moment. Not that I've ever had 10 pints in my life, but anyway.

37:14Mark Pougatch:Yeah, bragger.

37:18Mark Pougatch:Okay, make sure you subscribe or follow and leave us a review. Remember, you can always get in touch with us at thesportsagentsatglobal.com or message us on social media or via the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.