Are the Saudi's bored of owning Newcastle?

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:30This is a debate.

0:37Hello, Mark. No, you've got it wrong already.

0:48We've just spent 10 minutes going through. It's just so hard. No, that wasn't the intro. That was me just saying, hi, Mark. Hi, Mark.

1:01welcome to the sports agents hello mark hi gabby uh on this episode uh we will be talking about uh everything that's going on with saudi basically and how piff have stopped or are going to stop funding live golf but how that will affect other sports other teams with of course all eyes on them hosting the Men's World Cup in 2034. It is a strange situation at the moment. And all Newcastle United fans' eyes on the fact that they own their club as well. And it would appear, as we'll discuss in the podcast a little bit later, that football might be an area they're still interested in because of that World Cup, which will make a lot of Geordie's breathe a sigh of relief.

1:45Before we get into that, though, I think you put it on the WhatsApp group last night about just what an amazing time of the season this is. And we're recording this after Everton have drawn with Manchester City, after Hearts have beaten Rangers, but also off the back of a weekend where the final automatic promotion spot to the Premier League was decided, playoff spots were decided, two of five teams could have been relegated from the Football League, or there were five teams that could have been relegated from the Football League on the final Saturday. It feels like across the leagues in England and Scotland, it is as dramatic and on the line, like universally, as it's probably been for 20 years.

2:36And what you notice as well at this time of the year is just how frantic things get within individual matches and how open things get and how desperate, obviously, teams are for points at both ends of the table. So it creates a much more chaotic and often enjoyable game of football, doesn't it? The second half at Timecastle yesterday, the second half at Everton yesterday were both. They were blistering, weren't they? They were absolutely blistering. And it kind of, oh, you can play like that. Yeah, exactly. You can provide this entertainment because, you know, we talked obviously about, and we're on the day of the second, the first of the second legs is tonight of the semifinals of the Champions League and it is tomorrow's Wednesdays, of course, was the one last week, the PSG Bayern Munich, which is the reverse tomorrow, had all the entertainment in it and it was that kind of match, wasn't it?

3:29It was end to end and we've seen little kind of pockets of that, haven't we, over the last few days? Even the Premier League, even match of the day at the weekend, you know, both days provided moments like that, didn't they? And halves of football like that. Well, and also, we shouldn't forget the relegation battle either there was the i had to start yesterday when i was doing the radio forest leeds west ham and spurs collectively have only lost two of their last 12 games so the form that they're they are all in is again ridiculous i noticed this from the the form table which was to do with the conversation about michael carrick actually and whether or not he should be given the Manchester United job full-time.

4:11And of course, they are the top of the form table post-Christmas. Since he took over. Well, this was a specific period. It was. Yes, it was because I was watching. West Ham were in the top six. Since the 17th. I know because I think the previous week's match of the day, I had a similar form table. Since the 17th of January. So that followed on from them getting smashed at Wolves and then losing at home to Nottingham Forest. And then immediately after that, that's when they started. And in that period of time, if all things being equal, the table would look like West Ham 6th, which was the point, you know, kind of their resurgence and their late arrival at the table, if you like.

4:57But is it too late? We shall see. I feel, I think we'd be cheated. I feel cheated if the relegation battle doesn't go down to the wire. Having had what seemed like quite a few players in it, Now it is getting a bit lonelier, isn't it? It'd be a massive anticlimax, wouldn't it? If we get to the final Sunday and the titles decided, the relegation places decided, maybe European places. Kelly's on that shift, so... All yours, there's that hospital pass. You deal with it. The other thing, there are two things, actually. One, I think the atmosphere at the Emirates tonight will be electric because, obviously, they slightly have the advantage through the draw away in the first leg.

5:37but the whole mentality and demeanour of Arsenal fans when they arrive there tonight off the back of City dropping those two points it'll be completely different won't it it'll be like this weight has been lifted well you felt a bit of that at their performance against Fulham didn't you and I know people are going oh it's only Fulham but you know at this stage of the season we've seen how Arsenal can get nervy against the lowest of teams or the teams they're supposed to beat and thrash so that atmosphere definitely was ramped up But as you say, that result last night, I think, will give them a huge lift.

6:10I mean, it could be one of the, well, he said it already, hasn't he? It's the biggest night in the history of that stadium so far, for sure, because they hadn't reached the semi-final in that stadium. And then the other thing I wanted to mention was the snooker has, I know, you know, the people that crunch our numbers and love YouTube figures and everything might not want me to talk about snooker and would prefer me talking about the F1, but bollocks to that. The snooker's been amazing for two weeks, honestly. Whether it was John Higgins against Ronnie O'Sullivan and their second round match, which went down to the semifinal between Mark Allen and Wu Yeezer, went down to a black ball, basically.

6:56And Mark Allen missed it. And then Wu Yeezer stepped up and pottered the black and he made the final. To the final, only the fourth final going down to the deciding frame. And you've got this 22-year-old kid from China who came over here to make it in snooker, stayed him and his dad in a small flat with one bed. So staying in the same bed just to try and get him through this snooker school and to get to this big stage. The first two years he's been at the Crucible, he never did anything. And then this year he is world champion and the second youngest ever world champion at 22. and when he won Sean Murphy who is who has won one world title in the past but has lost to subsequently three or four finals since just hugged him just gave him a massive hug in the most it was it was so sporting and just everything that you would want from sport in that final it was just brilliant one of his quotes was that he'd played him earlier in the year hadn't he and he'd beaten him and he said I said at the time this guy's going to be a world champion I just kind of didn't hope it was going to be this year.

8:03I hoped it was going to be a little bit later. And yeah, he thanked his dad as well, didn't he, for the sacrifices they'd made. It was very emotional. And it's, you know, by all accounts, and I'll defer to your snooker knowledge, obviously there were a record number of Chinese players in the tournament. And there was going to be a, the sport has just absolutely blown up, hasn't it, over the last decade or two. So a world champion was a coming. Oh yeah, well, so we had one. so last year that was the first chinese world champion and now back to back chinese world champions and and as you said why though do you know do you know why i think because they they i think they um fell in love with it in the uh from what i was reading in the sort of mid to late 80s and then they so it became sort of popular watched a lot in the in the late 80s That was like, you know, peak kind of restrictions on any Western culture, any kind of idea of, you know, of wanting or looking towards the West for any references, wasn't it?

9:07Although I don't think watching Steve Davis beat Ray Reardon is going to send you into the most corrupt of lives, is it? Have they heard of Jimmy White? Yeah, for God's sake, well, show Steve Davis. Keep Alex Higgins and Jimmy White off the telly in China, otherwise we're in all sorts of trouble. I love that, though. I mean, I imagine that documentary will have probably been made about it already, but I love that kind of seeping into a culture and then becoming so huge in a country that didn't have that heritage beforehand. And I also think, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, and I did read this somewhere as well, because of the one child policy in China, where couples are, there is a limit.

9:53You can, or there was a limit. I don't know if there still is, but you can, I think it's changed. It is a solitary sport, obviously. So it is something that one child can do. And then this year is record number of Chinese entrants at the Crucible. But they, you know, it is such a popular sport. I have never been, and it is on my bucket list to go to the Crucible. I'd really love to go. so maybe next year well I got invited this year but I couldn't make it but do you know what I quite like watching at the snooker as well I mean this is like a love letter to the crucible because everybody has those earpieces in I quite like it when somebody when they're obviously talking about somebody in the crowd and that person is listening and then they recognise that they're talking about Monty Panesar over the weekend was front row and they were talking about it and whoever he's with she turned to me and went they're talking about you and he was like yeah I know right shall we crack on with today's episode then which of course we always remind you you can catch up on previous episodes on YouTube Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts and we'd love you to subscribe follow and leave a glowing review but only after you've listened to this sorry I thought you were going to pick up oh right sorry I thought that was the I'll do another link but only after you've listened oh yes I see right then I've got to do it yeah right yeah but only after do you listen to today's episode?

11:14Which is to do with Live Golf and Saudi funding. Live have obviously lost their Saudi backing, but what else is going to happen with the rest of PIF's sporting investments? Matt Slater, Senior Sports News Writer at The Athletic, joins us next.

11:38Matt, thank you very much for joining us. There is so much to get into, but let's just deal with the live story first of all um was it simply financially the bottom line was too much for pif or do you know what actually we're going to have to differentiate here between saudi and pif aren't we otherwise we're gonna get ourselves in an awful lot of trouble no yeah we can do but just remember it's the same it's the same really right it's the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia, it's all coming from the same hole in the ground. Yeah, but in Newcastle's case, you're not allowed to say it as the same, are you?

12:14Yeah. With Liv in particular, though, was it just the bottom line was just too much to sustain? Eventually, yes. I mean, yes. I think we should just maybe roll back a bit because right from the off, Liv was the most aggressive disruptor play of all time. You know, they've dropped 5 billion on this project in whatever it is, four or five years. And it was, depending on, you know, your view of Saudi and what Saudi's doing in sport, either this colossal sports washing play, either this attempt to diversify their economy by boosting tourism and, you know, attracting people to come to Saudi Arabia to work and play.

12:59And it was maybe a bit of both. Or it was just a great investment. They were just being strategic and they saw some upside in golf.

13:09And right from the off, it involved huge upfront expenses, mainly on talent. So there's a real clear read-across to football in terms of wage turnover ratio and the fact that most of the money goes to the players. Nearly all the live money has gone to the players, attracting Mickelson and John Rahm and Bryson DeChambeau. and it I guess it was fine until it wasn't which is the same debate we have with so many football teams right with these sort of sugar daddy owners as long as live golf was part of this Saudi vision 2030 plan you know diversify the economy grow tourism grow our sports economy as long as you know that narrative made some kind of sense they were going to pay the checks but a few things have happened one the Saudi economy even before the Iran war wasn't doing quite as well as you know best case scenarios a few years ago the cost of the enormous projects that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has started in Saudi Arabia were becoming apparent.

14:25They were running a little short of cash, frankly. And we saw some roadback on things like Neom, this grand city in the deserts, some of the other kind of mega, mad, wild vision castles in the sky stuff they're doing. So we were seeing a gentle roadback from the amount of money they were spending outside the kingdom. So at one point, PIF, which is the Sovereign Wealth Fund, were allocating about 30 % of their money for projects outside Saudi Arabia. And this could be things like investing in Uber or X or whatever, right? You know, computer games and buying Newcastle and live and blah, blah, blah.

15:00That went to, I think, about 23 % a few years ago. And everyone was like, oh, don't worry, don't worry. This is just what sovereign wealth funds do, allocating their money. Then it goes to 19%. Ah, hold on. We're a long way off peak Saudi boom here, aren't we? And then a month ago, we got this announcement that without the numbers in there, I think the numbers will come later, the strategy is definitely changing. We are now, we now only really care about stuff that works for Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabians. And I think we can, we should think about the geopolitical situation there. You said something at the beginning about Liv, about the players taking the largest kind of proportion, if you like, of the investment into Liv.

15:49They don't buy stadiums, they don't buy golf courses. At least if you buy a football club, you have an asset, don't you? You have a stadium sometimes. They don't have any of that. So when they remove their funding, they don't have anything. They don't have anything to sell, do they? Wow. We're racing ahead to the kind of real meat of this. What next? Well, yeah, for Liv, let's start with Liv. Before we move on to the other sporting properties, with Liv, because this is the thing that, you know, if you're on that tour, where is the money coming from? Where is the, you know, are they going to keep funding?

16:21Who's going to keep funding the tournaments? And what do the Saudis have that they can sell on to somebody? Well, I genuinely think that Liv will be studied in business schools for years to come as a sort of classic case of hubris, disruption gone wrong. I don't think they've got much to sell at all. The idea was that you were going to grow this new tour and that we were all going to fall in love with these teams. I could do a quiz here. Can you name any of the Liv teams or who plays for them or who won last year? No, of course you can't. I bet you can. No, do you know what? I don't. I don't watch any of the Liv stuff.

16:59I haven't at all. Occasionally I've seen 10 minutes of it because I found it quite interesting sometimes to see what it's like in territories that tend to be ignored by other tours. You know, I might have seen one in South Africa or in Adelaide or whatever. Crushers, maybe, I think, is one that maybe... Yeah, that's one. I think that may be... Yeah, yeah, good. But apart from that, no. And I actually couldn't tell you who is on what team bar. Rahm and Hatton were on the same team because they left at the same time. But it goes back to that on the team stuff, goes back to previous discussions. We've had Gabby when we've had Michael Johnson on, not that we're going down that route, but with the athletics and stuff.

17:49You can't, and the 100 and stuff, you can't create affinity with teams in the space of three years. It takes 25, 30, 50 years to create affinities with teams, particularly when and especially when you're trying to do it in a sport that isn't known for for having any teams whatsoever i completely agree with you so so the the premise was flawed i think from the beginning i think if you think maybe about the indian premier league like cricket but again those those franchises are based on places we've heard of those places we might not know the nicknames but you pretty you pretty soon realize it goes back to what we all know with sport my town versus your town and as you say the team event that really works in golf is usa versus europe we we we don't need to know it's so it's obvious isn't it our affinities are immediate but if you just channel like the four aces versus the crushers versus whatever they're called sorry what you know where are they from who's in them so the idea that they were going going to create this event that we'd care about and they then sell these teams i always thought was nonsense and that and that's where they're at and it is funny though that some of their events have actually started to do okay in terms of selling tickets and creating some media interest certainly in the market so the ones you refer to south africa and australia have done pretty well And I think some of the ones in the States, not so bad.

19:23But we come back to the fundamental problem. You know, you've spent a fortune on players. I think one of the things that brought this to a head is Bryson DeChambeau is looking there going, well, I think if you're paying John Rahm 300 million and I'm the biggest name you've got, I'm worth 400, 500 million. That's basically what they pay for Newcastle. It's that kind of investment. and you know pif are not daft they're saying do you know what let's show some discipline here let's say no and the other thing in all of that was not only the ridiculous contracts to the individuals but then the prize pots that were on offer at every i mean a 30 million dollar prize pot at every event i mean that is you could finish 28th and pick up a 200 000 i think something something like that i mean that i i don't care how deep your pockets are at some point somebody within a fund has to go um that that is not what is our return on investment here yeah and and they've obviously decided the return is absolutely nowhere near what it should be for them and it's expendable this in their sporting portfolio so going back to what happens next for those players then will somebody come in and in any way fill the gap financially is there anything in live that looks investable in my understanding is about a year ago maybe slightly less than a year this was starting to become apparent like pif's withdrawal they were they They were signaling it.

21:09So they bring a guy called Scott O 'Neill, who's a big, you know, US sports executive, you know, well thought of, brings a kind of new team in. That was very much, right, let's try and save this thing. What can we sell? You know, can we sell these teams? I think, you know, can we go through the original plan? I think they've probably been told no, no one cares. Can we save some of these events? You know, we do now at least have a track record of some successful events. And to be fair, they've been quite good at persuading people that Liv was cool. And various public authorities have invested in money in their golf courses to attract a Liv event, which I think is quite interesting.

21:47But anyway, so they've put on a couple of good events. So can you, I think probably the best offer they have now or the best chance they have now is to merge and save some of these events. Do you create a little mini tour within a bigger tour? So we know that they've had these peace talks to the PGA. I mean, I think the PGA part of this story is really interesting. You know, all players, Liv and non-Liv, have done really well out of Saudi Arabia's attempt to buy golf. Because what did PGA have to do? Whack up the prize funds, give them players a much bigger say. So, you know, golf has responded to Saudi Arabia by going, spending a lot more money.

22:26You know, and of course, Liv have been doing this without a TV contract, basically. So the whole thing was just doomed to failure eventually. But can you save, as Mark points out, the half a dozen events that, oh, right, there's big crowds there and, yeah, good players. Could they merge? I'm just floating this. This is something that's been suggested and I think would have been a far cleverer thing to do for PIF in the first place anyway. Merge with the European Tour. Imagine putting all that money or even half the money they put into LIV into the European Tour and challenging the PGA Tour that way.

22:59with some existing events and players that we've heard of? I see that as definitely the way that this may be resolved in some way, shape or form. The European Tour also, known as the DP World Tour now, DP World have Saudi investment as well, the sponsors. Patrick Reid has come back from Live and has started back on the DP World Tour and is being incredibly successful, actually, on the DP World Tour. And I think if certain, and you also have to remember, I mean, such is the nature of global sport now, the European Tour takes in places like China and India and Dubai. It's a very confusing European Tour.

23:48It's a very, very confusing. It's not going to help a 12-year-old in geography, isn't this European Tour? and I think and I do think you know you throw in well golf doesn't traditionally have these big events in Australia and South Africa as we've talked about you throw two or three of those in and players show well a bit more than show contrition but pay fines and this that and the other there will be there will be a way through it I mean that's what Patrick Reid paid whatever he had to pay I think and was sort of part of them 20-odd wasn't it to come back yeah So that would be the area. So if that is feasible and that looks like something that might be a way forwards and that lets live kind of, I suppose, ease itself out in a way that isn't too dramatic for those players on that tour.

24:42Where else can we expect the Saudi sports project to start unraveling a little bit? Well, I mean, that's a really good question. So it's already started, is my view, around the same time as the Liv announcement, which, of course, has dominated the conversation. Because it is a bigger sport. There are some big personalities involved. And just the amount that Saudi have invested, this is embarrassing. This is a failure. This is a defeat. Snooker, you know, again, it just strikes me it's similar, right? Saudi Arabians don't care about golf. They don't care about snooker. I've been to a golf event in Saudi Arabia.

25:24I've walked the course. The only people there were a dozen expats. There were no Saudis there. So they're rowing back on snooker. I think they've already cancelled the WTA finals, which I always thought was a slightly strange one anyway, because it inevitably led to a sports-washing debate. So I think we can see that. And then I think the one that has been a lot of conversation around is is newcastle now for me there are differences newcastle has been quite a good investment they got it a good price they haven't thrown money they've spent money at newcastle but they haven't thrown money at newcastle and you know they've had some success they've won trophy they've been to europe twice okay this year's been a struggle but the value of their investment has gone up as well.

26:20I think if they were to try and sell today for a reasonable price, they would walk away probably square. It's not a distressed asset as far as they're concerned, so they might try and hang around for a small profit. So it's not a disaster at all. What's interesting to me, though, is they haven't gone mad. They haven't really pushed as aggressively as Abu Dhabi did with Man City or Qatar did with PSG. Where is the stadium plan? Where is the training ground plan? Yes, you spent big in the first window. and there's been some other windows where they have gone as far as they can. But they've not pushed the boats out in terms of Saudi sponsors, really.

26:54They've not aggressively taken on the Premier League's rulebook. It's been a very, I would say, passive investment. Now, OK, maybe that carries on. I think we're going to have to look more then at the Saudi Pro League. I'd say it's a similar story. Massive fanfare, aggressive first window or two. but we've you know i haven't been talking about the saudi pro league i i don't hear anyone in i don't hear richard masters going oh no they're coming you know it just it just seems to you know settled down um so i think all sports that have enjoyed saudi money for a while and it and saudi money has been spread in such interesting ways the zone players who were kind of at the end of a career in Europe, I'm thinking of Antoine Griezmann, who's playing tonight, of course, he's signed up to go and play in the MLS, isn't he?

27:47A year ago, you would have thought, potentially, you know, you go, you hear more about the Saudi move, don't you want, for those players? So even that, it's quite down, hasn't it? Those kinds of just coming... The biggest one, Gabby, is Mo Salah, isn't it? And if you go back even a year, the noise then, about, or 18 months, whilst we didn't know whether he was going to sign a new deal or whatever, it was well it must be Saudi it must be Saudi now unless I've completely missed it I I haven't really seen no Saudi mentioned at all in what many assumed would be his his final move yeah his final big move so if that is also dwindling an interest you know their or their interest in that league is is dwindling because they're not getting back what they thought they might they're not a challenger to any of the big European leagues, are they?

28:37They're not a challenger, as you say, to the Premier League, which is the biggest and the richest in the world. Football has to keep somewhere on their agenda because they have a World Cup coming, right? So you think that would be one sport they would? Yes. So I don't think they're pulling back. I think what they've realised with the Serie A Pro League is it's going to be harder than they thought. They thought this, you know, inevitable, this great big, We're going to fire. We've got a tank. We're going to fire money at global football. We're going to go from being, I don't know, the 30th best league, so top five league, really fast.

29:13And, you know, there was this idea that they were almost going to sort of barge their way into the Champions League. You know, the Champions League would be mad not to have them. I think all that's gone. I think UEFA didn't blink. I think FIFA blinked and, you know, desperately tried. He's very keen to have those teams, people like Ronaldo, at their Club World Cup. But I think a few things have become apparent. One, they realised pretty fast this is going to be harder than we thought. So I think there was, to be fair to them, there was a shift in the type of players they decided to chase. So they've gone younger.