Are World Cup fans in danger after Mexico cartel violence?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. The recent killing of Mexican drug lord El Mencho has caused unrest and cartel violence across the country. Guadalajara, one of Mexico's host cities in this summer's World Cup, was one of the worst affected. So what state are we left in just months away from the tournament? Should fans be worried about the threat of cartel violence? Does it benefit the cartels to disrupt the World Cup? And with ICE and President Trump ever present in the US, are there even more questions to be answered there? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

0:40The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Before we get into the wider conversations about FIFA's response to the violence, The Guardian's Mexican football reporter John Arnold has sent us this voice note after going to Guadalajara. The reality is it's still much too early to say with any certainty what the Mexican government's capture and killing of El Mencho and the cartels show of force in response to it will have on the World Cup. It's too early to say what effect it might have in March's intercontinental playoff that's supposed to be taking place at the Estadio Acron in Jalisco.

1:18There was a burning bus placed not far from the stadium, and there was chaos all over Guadalajara, all over the region, and spread to several states in Mexico. But since that day, there's been a tense calm in Guadalajara, in Puerto Vallarta, and in other affected cities. You've seen the Mexican government say that they're confident that they can respond in a way to keep people safe during the World Cup. Guadalajara is such a vibrant city, and there's a song that says it has the most Mexican soul. It's the birthplace of tequila, birthplace of mariachi, the style of music. So I think people want to get back to quote-unquote normal.

1:55But it's not going to be easy to just snap back to that. I think the memories and the images of Sunday will obviously loom large. And that's why the Mexican government really needs to find a way to make sure people feel safe. There was a friendly. Mexico had a friendly yesterday with 30 ,000 people in attendance in Queretaro, a state that's not too far from Guadalajara. A Liga Mequis match there had been postponed. So there's signs that people feel good about going out, that people feel safe. But another incident, I think, would just snap it back. So that's where people are at right now. And I think how Wadalajara is hoping to recover.

2:27So let's try and work out more about what this means for the World Cup and where FIFA are with all of this. The Athletics' Adam Crafton joins us. Take us back then to what exactly has happened and the areas that have been affected, Adam. Where do you start, really? just another day for the FIFAverse to kind of come to terms with but you know over the weekend in Mexico you've got the state of Jalisco which includes the host city of Guadalajara that will host four games during the World Cup it has one of Mexico's games it has I think it has Spain and Uruguay it's not I guess as big a burden as some of the other cities that have you know seven eight games but it but it's pretty substantial what essentially happened was you had the authorities take out one of the cartel leaders and in response to that there was a lot of retaliatory violence which led to you know public transportation being shut down armed standoffs I mean scenes that kind of went all over the world and I think it you know it did immediately imbue you know of course you know this isn't really a story about the World Cup it's first and foremost about the safety and security of people who actually live there.

3:42But inevitably, it very quickly shifted on to questions for the Mexican president, Claudia Schaumbel, about, you know, is Mexico safe to host this tournament? And obviously, there's been all sorts of questions for the United States. But I think this is the first time that Mexico has really had questions placed in the lead-up to the tournament as well. Not just questions for Mexico, Adam, but questions for FIFA to answer as well, presumably. and and I imagine there've been conversations between the two at the moment yeah I mean FIFA were very quiet on Sunday I think probably rightly because they were probably attempting to work out what exactly was going on you know I don't think it's any I don't think it's easy even for people who are experts in cartel violence to immediately know what what this was supposed to mean when I was speaking to people within FIFA Sunday night into Monday morning I think there was a sense of panic there was a sense of you know i'm not sure their relationships with the federal government are quite what they are in the united states i'm not sure it's possible for any relationships to be quite what fifas are with the united states to be fair but they were yeah they were attempting to find out what was going on but very very swiftly that messaging moved on to we have complete faith in the three host countries they even denied that they had significant concerns and it seems quite strange to me that you would not have significant concerns about the scenes that were playing out I mean there's also two stages to this to think about because not only is there the World Cup in the summer FIFA also have their inter-confederation playoffs taking place in Mexico just next month so there's a round of games that will take place I think I need to get these countries right I think it's Jamaica New Caledonia will play a playoff and then winners of that will then play in the final this is the end of end of march the same time that all the european playoffs exactly and they're you that they're playing some games in mexico city monterey guadalajara i think almost as dummy runs for the world cup so they're very very keen for those games to go ahead just from a planning and coordination perspective so i think those games were the ones that immediately i guess there were alarm bells for just because it's you know it's only what three or four weeks away until then and actually making sure that that's safe for the federations for fans etc is going to be a challenge is there a sense with fifa and i'm not for one minute minimizing what has gone on in mexico but is there a sense within fifa that not that we've been here before but that for every world cup that i can think of probably since germany of 2006 there have been challenges and questions as we go into the last six months or is there something deeper here for them i think fifa have certainly become a little bit numb to i guess drama chaos around their tournaments public discussion of whether hosts are suitable they kind of absorbed a huge amount when it came to Qatar in terms of beyond anything, just a huge number of deaths in the lead up to that tournament.

6:59So I think there probably is a slightly numbing aspect to that, which means that when things happen, you know, they don't immediately go into the kind of panic that probably people across the world maybe would. And I think, you know, to be fair to the Mexican authorities, you know it does seem like they've restored they've set about restoring order relatively swiftly FIFA will have been asking for all sorts of assurances in the past 24 to 48 hours you know it has to be said you know one of the top comments on all of our reporting around Mexico over the last few days has essentially been okay but there's violence has taken place in the United States and you're not and you're not all asking is the United States an appropriate host not necessarily in the cities that are hosting the World Cup, but at different stages over the past year or so.

7:49So I think there's a little bit of that taking place. And I think there's also just a little bit of, you know, let's wait and see. And I guess to use a football analogy, put our foot on the ball. Can we talk a little bit more about the cartels? You know, anybody who's watched anything like Narcos or any of those kinds of dramas thinks they've got kind of some kind of insight into how these things work and they carve out their territories. And that's usually why they come and have a big fight, isn't it? Because somebody else has stepped on somebody else's patch. So had the Mexican government almost got to hope that they saw all their politics out and then they see the World Cup as an opportunity to do more business, in a way, in terms of what's coming into those host cities?

8:28Yeah, I think there is me, cartel expert. Dugs, prostitution, you know what I'm talking about. I was just sitting back here thinking I'm loving Gabby and Adam's dissection of the cartel industry. This is this is fascinating two more experts i couldn't wish to listen to on it no i would say we have spoken to some experts of cartels which uh see which even in itself seems a kind of absurd thing to say i i think there is a slight misconception around you know cartels don't just deal in drugs you know and they have involvement in all sorts of industries both within mainstream and kind of more mundane industries in Mexico.

9:10And I think, you know, when it comes to kind of restaurants or hotels or other forms of entertainment industry, I think there is a hope within Mexico that actually, as you say, Gabby, that they will see the World Cup as something that they can benefit from rather than something to disrupt. That does seem to be a consensus. But I don't think there's any guarantee of when, you know, increased retaliatory violence might take place. It could be, as we saw over the last few days, very, very instant, but it could also be delayed and calculated. There would also be, and again, I wouldn't know how this would work, but from past World Cups that we have all been to, you talk to people who live there or work there or whatever, they will say it's not normally like this, for example.

10:02countries quite often seem to be able to put on hold whatever their issues are however society might in inverted commas normally run for a six-week period whilst the FIFA World Cup is there and you sort of leave as a tourist don't you Gabby kind of with maybe with a false impression yeah yes yeah yeah actually a false impression is better than me saying blissfully and it would be you do you come away going oh actually i really enjoyed that experience and but then but then people have to tell you well it's not normally like this so just be careful and anything relating to fifa tends to be like that i remember being in paraguay for the fifa congress last may and it was like half the nation's army had been deployed to kind of give this perception of paraguay which wasn't a country in chaos by the way it was just clearly like they were so keen to impress fifa or FIFA had asked for such security, whichever way around it must have been.

11:00And you came away with a sense of like, oh my gosh, this place feels highly militarised but incredibly safe at the same time. But also like so safe it feels unsafe, if that makes sense, because you're not used to seeing soldiers in the streets and around every corner. And it was actually the same for the Super Bowl last year in New Orleans. It came shortly after a terrorist incident on Bourbon Street. and there was so much kind of National Guard there, kind of armed National Guard. You'd go around every corner and there'd be an armed guard or a National Guard. And I came away from that being like, it's so safe, it feels uncomfortable and unsafe.

11:37And I think Guadalajara during the World Cup might be similar. They were talking about having National Guard and the Mexican army going in to make sure everything's safe, even before this happening. President Putin was able to sanitise Russia so that there were no problems at all. We all experienced, I don't know if you did, Chappers, but I experienced one of the best World Cups I'd ever been to. Absolutely. And I'm still conflicted by that. Well, I made great friends. I still speak to in terms of, you know, our fixer, Olga, who was from St. Petersburg and we were based in Repano and just loved going into Russia's interior and meeting, you know, real Russians in places like Samara and Kaliningrad.

12:16And it was it was a fantastic experience. Samara was incredible, wasn't it? Samara was one of the most amazing places I've ever been to. I will never go there again. And my children will probably never go there again. Well, they didn't go then. But, you know, that makes me feel quite sad that we, you know, we thought this country had opened up to the world. And it did the absolute opposite a few years later. So Putin was able to achieve that. Are the Mexican government realistically able to achieve? And, you know, they might say we're going to get this under control. But it would appear from the history of kind of cartels in Mexico and the violence and the kidnappings.

12:48I mean, have you ever looked into the kidnapping that goes on there? It's extraordinary. that this is a country that isn't in control of its mafia, its cartels, its violence and its drugs. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I mean, this is a point that the US administration has been making pretty forcefully over the past year or so. I think one thing to remember is like Mexico only have 25. Well, no, they share 25 percent of the games of this World Cup with Canada. Mexico will be part of hosting this World Cup, but this is going to feel like a US World Cup, I think, for most people. You know, the Mexico games were obviously in Mexico and the opening game at the Azteca.

13:34You know, I think will look incredible. And I think you're right. You know, people will go there and I think they will have an amazing time. And let's not remember, I mean, loads of people go every year from the UK and the US on holiday to Mexico, have a fantastic time. So I think Mexico has been quite able for a long time to kind of separate, I guess, what happens between the cartels and the experience that tourists are able to have. And I think that's something that clearly they'll be looking to extend, as we've seen from other hosts previously. I mean, it was not just Russia. I remember there was a point in Qatar probably three weeks in where everyone was walking around you know i remember speaking to women walking around qatar so and they were saying you know with people not drinking i've never felt this safe walking around at night not everyone would have felt that way but that was definitely a narrative that developed during the tournament so i think people do get into like these kind of like synthetic bubbles during these tournaments where you either kind of really swallow the story that's being told to you or your experience makes you feel that way the people you meet makes you feel that way because inevitably like when people actually meet each other they aren't the people who are causing causing trouble there is you know a thing called ice out there on the streets at the moment and that that is real isn't it i wouldn't want to meet an ice agent no you wouldn't want to meet an ice agent um i don't think you're likely to meet an ice agent the questions with ice are ongoing going and what what is interesting is they haven't yet there haven't been sort of real flashpoints in world cup host cities now that is not at all to take away certainly from what we've seen in minneapolis with the killings there but i i do get the feeling that there is a vanity associated with this tournament for the trump administration a little bit you know perhaps not dissimilar to 2018 in russia where they do want to project something to the world and i think there will be competing forces within the administration some of which who are saying that you know immigration enforcement is the number one priority and others who are saying this tournament has to go fantastically well i mean look we've asked repeatedly we asked andrew giuliani the world cup task force um director son of um rudy giuliani about you know will ice you know be working during this world cup and the answer was basically anyone who is here legally doesn't have anything to worry about which wasn't an answer of ice aren't going to be around and actually during the club world cup last summer fifa received we reported late last year i think 150 145 concerns relating to human rights and 30 i think 37 of those were specifically around immigration enforcement alleged sightings of ice or customs border protection around games when i then took that to the Department of Home and Security, they said that this was another kind of made-up scare story.

16:36So I think it's difficult. It's difficult. And I don't think it's like for people, for journalists like me to tell people everything's going to be all right or not to worry when, you know, it is for the administration themselves to set that out. The other thing to think about with this World Cup, particularly I think in Mexico, is that there isn't just the games. There's also these huge fan festivals that they're trying to put on, which could host 20, 30 ,000 people. Well, Adam, I was going to ask you about this because the US government hasn't given the money over yet, has it, for that? There's nearly something like$660 million that is owed to the host cities.

17:12And Miami is saying at the moment, we might not be able to have a fan park because we can't afford it. Yeah, and I think it's different in Mexico and the States. So I think Mexico's FanFest, they're looking at doing like 39 days of FanFest, which is what the original agreement was with FIFA. And for people who don't know, these fan fests are kind of these quite synthetic fifa branded parks sometimes they're in big centers sometimes they're in literally in parks big screens drinks probably only able to get fifa branded budweiser or whatever to be honest i wouldn't recommend them but a lot of people liked a lot of people like to go um when they're when they're in town i think there's a lot of other bars in america where you have a better time anyway fifa are having challenges at the moment for the host cities.

17:57And it's partly a funding issue. The federal government committed 625 million, but it has to be processed through an agency within the Department of Homeland Security, which is currently partially shut down because of disagreements going on between the Republicans and the Democrats. So that money hasn't been processed yet. There was a hearing the other day where, as Gabby says, the Miami host committee, who have committed to 23 days of FanFest, were basically saying we have a drop dead day, like very dramatic American language, within 30 days we won't be able to do it. Kansas City were saying, you know, our drop dead day is immediate.

18:36Everyone's dying around us in this hearing. Are they all calling it drop dead day? In this hearing, it was sort of very dramatically worded. But they were saying, you know, we've received none of this money. Hasn't one of them actually dropped dead? Hasn't like New Jersey gone? Well, there's a few. So New Jersey have cancelled their one at Liberty State Park, which was meant to be for every day of the tournament. So the committee is now looking for another location, likely in New York. And what happened was essentially that the previous governor, Phil Murphy, and his wife Tammy were huge proponents of this fan park.

19:12A new governor has been elected and come in, I think, looked at the budget and said, this is too expensive. I'm not sure this is a sensible way for us to spend our money you have the slightly awkward thing of the former governor's wife Tammy Murphy is still on the board of the host committee, chair of the board so I'm not sure how that would have gone down between the new governor and the last governor but it does speak to a broader challenge I think for the host cities of just coming to terms actually with what on earth they signed up for with FIFA because you know everyone talks about this huge economic impact Gianni Infantino is promising 30 billion economic impact.

19:50I think there's huge scepticism around that when you look at the fact that FIFA actually take pretty much all the revenues associated with the tournament. So the ticketing, the sponsorship, the broadcast, even the car parking. The car parking, it's like$250 to park your car. And FIFA are taking most of those revenues. so the host cities are then also on the hook for sorting all the safety all the security fire water all of the stuff associated with airports the kind of the carriers to get gianni infantino and his vvvips to and from games so i think some of the cities now are vastly scaling back some of the fan fest that they originally signed up to because otherwise it's u.s taxpayers is on the hook through well and don't the tax rules change as well where every tournament that don't each country's tax rules do they not apply to fifa or something when fifa come in and do a world cup i remember from a previous tournament brazil i think fifa have um despite infantino going on tv last week and say that fifa will make over 11 billion from the tournament they have non-profit status which gives them all sorts of tax breaks associated with tournament and also because nations have traditionally bidded for the tournament you know if you were the us canada and mexico going up against morocco you're having to do some of this stuff in order to get the tournament there what fifa always say is but you know 90 of the revenues that we make from the tournament will go back into football and be divided across federations across the world contribute to federations all over you know disadvantaged areas of the world and therefore Sorry Adam, I'd love to know if South Africa and Brazil feel that from tournaments in 2010 and 2014.

21:37I'd love to know. I think this is one of the reasons why there's not that many countries anymore that are actually capable of hosting Olympic Games and World Cups. And I think why we will see going forward in maybe 20 years time, kind of just a conveyor belt of the same nations probably actually being able to host it. You can't find a host for the Commonwealth Games anymore, really. So I think some of these are big challenges. Just on something you said about Paraguay, actually, when you were there, sort of countries rolling out the red carpet for FIFA and trying to impress FIFA, whether that's during the bid process or whether they won the rights to host the tournament.

22:16Is that the same dynamic with the USA and FIFA? Or is that dynamic slightly different in this case? You know, Mexico and Canada probably trying to impress FIFA. But given the nature of where we're at with the states and their administration, is it more of a two-way thing there, do you think? Well, I think it was always going to be more of a two-way thing just because of the democratic makeup of America, where you have a federal government and then you have states that are very powerful, mayors that are very powerful. so there was always going to be the potential for challenges and friction i think politically for fifa here and also with the sense of you know metlife stadium doesn't need a fifa world cup right new york city does not need a fifa world cup the city of los angeles doesn't need a world cup you know so this this wasn't a case like where katar where this was or was projected as the most important thing that's ever happened to a country.

23:19I actually think it would have been more politically challenging in terms of getting stuff they wanted from a FIFA perspective without Trump being in power, because I think Trump has kind of attached himself to this tournament. He's kind of made the argument of, you know, I was the president when I was elected. They never thought I'd be here, you know, two terms on. And really, no one ever thought they would be um and so he it's something he he's been able to claim credit for which we know he loves to do and also has struck up this kind of bizarre um bromance with with infantino i mean you really can't separate i don't think it's bizarre i think it's one of the most natural bromances on the planet by the way it is um happy anniversary to giro infantino his 10 years this month as fifa president it's been quite hard to miss on his on his instagram page because he's been writing his name as Infantine 10 at the end as the branding and you've had kind of messages coming in from luminaries such as Tom Brady who has described him as a true man of the people in an interview on Fox Sports well it's also when I think of who's best place to talk about who is the man of the people I think of Tom Brady and then also you've had sort of federations from Uzbekistan.

24:41Maybe he meant our people. You know the rich and powerful. Maybe that's what he meant. But no, you're right. It is a very natural kind of romance. You're right in that sense. And clearly I think Trump is going to be a very visible part of this World Cup. You think? I think. I think. As will Infantino. With those two bombshells. We will leave it there. Adam, thank you so much. I'm sure we will speak again and there'll be more controversies to unpick and hopefully not too much violence in Mexico, but I'm sure the stories will keep on coming, won't they, in the build-up to this World Cup? For sure.

25:17Thanks for having me. The Sports Agents. The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Another varied week on The Sports Agents. We spoke Six Nations with ex-England Rugby Union player David Flattman after what's been a difficult couple of weeks for the English. When you go on a couple of bad losses and you know there's an honesty meeting coming, which is what they always call it, I just tried to blame everyone else with the loudest voice possible. That's how I did it. I kept getting re-contracted, mate, so it worked. That's how I did it. It was never my fault. But it's not lads in the room shouting, you were crap, you were crap, you were crap.

25:57I think it's like, right, what we're doing here, lads, is really suddenly not working. However, George Ford was the king of the world three weeks ago, right? So he's not sudden no good. He hasn't had a great couple of weeks. I'm not sure what fly half could have played for England and looked great in the last two weeks, frankly. So, you know, I'm getting messages off time. I've got my neighbour speaking to me, Big Ron. George Ford's got to go. I said, mate, you had a poster of him on your wall two weeks ago. Chill out. And on Thursday, we spoke to Will Buxton, who features in Drive to Survive and its exec producer, Ian Holmes on the success of this incredible series, but also what other sports can learn.

26:33You're advising another sport on how they can take a drive to survive and make their sports grow. Don't do it. Seriously, though, because you can't copy it. People have tried and people have failed. And Ian made the point earlier, what led to the incredible global rise of Formula One. Yes, Drive to Survive was a part of it, but there was so much else going on at the time. Liberty's push into the digital domain and making sure that eyeballs were on the sport across digital platforms was a huge part of the sport's growth, which ran hand in hand with Drive to Survive. Drive to Survive itself, as Ian said, only really found success between seasons two and three at a time when COVID happened and the sport was continuing.

27:18All of those circumstances combined together to create this incredible effect that you cannot replicate. That's it for another week on The Sports Agents. If you've been listening to this on the News Agents feed, just search for The Sports Agents to listen to those episodes in full on YouTube, Global Player, or if you get your podcast, remember to hit subscribe or follow. And do keep getting in touch with us on email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com, on social media or via the link in the show notes. We've got new episodes for you every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. Thanks for listening. The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.