Ashes aftermath: McCullum's Bazballs-up & Bethell breakthrough

0:02Steve Harmison:This is a Global Player original podcast. The Ashes series down under is over with a fizzle. Australia taking it by four tests to one. There were moments to remember for England, the centuries from Joe Root and Jacob Bethel and England's first test win in Australia since 2011. But England can't paper over the cracks. The critics say England were underprepared, players weren't held to account and there was, of course, the trip to Noosa. But Ben Stokes isn't done yet.

0:35Chappers:Keen as anything to carry on. I've loved having a challenge thrown at me and at the moment the challenge is getting the team back to where we once were in terms of the performances that we were delivering.

0:52Steve Harmison:So what will England cricket do next? They don't win often down under, So is it unhealthy for heads to roll every time it falls apart? And if they stay, are Stokes, Brendan McCullum and Rob Key capable of making the major changes England need? Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:18Steve Harmison:The Sports Agents.

1:19Barney Ronay:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

1:24Steve Harmison:Steve Barney thank you both for being with us here here we go again with uh you only you do all sports Barney but you only seem to join us on this podcast for for depressing cricket chat

1:35Barney Ronay:at the moment yeah I mean I specialize in actually all depressing chat but depressing cricket chat is a particular is a particularly good one and and do you know what just on that

1:47Steve Harmison:before we get on to England and what they've done and what they are going to do I said this earlier this week on the pod I genuinely, genuinely at 52 years old in all my time of watching cricket I cannot remember a more generally not just because England have lost but a more generally Barney miserable Ashes series it's just disappointed on so many levels

2:13Barney Ronay:Yeah, I mean there are good reasons for that England have underachieved Australia were vulnerable I mean they have a brilliant bowling attack but they were vulnerable in other ways and they missed some kind of all-time players and it feels like a chance missed because that's a talented England team I also think there's something unique about this Ashes tour they really haven't played much cricket I worked it out just now I think it's been 17 days in about 67 days in Australia but it's been relentless it's been the first really online tour I feel like it's been constant it's this terminally online experience of constant chat, constant non-events, constant stuff at Noosa that we're supposed to get worried about.

2:54Barney Ronay:And that, I think, has actually drained the players in a way they didn't expect. They've talked a lot about the pressure of being in Australia. I don't know if the pressure is really that bad. Is it as bad as being a footballer? They don't play that much cricket. But it's a really hard place to be anywhere in the modern world at the moment. And I feel that's really affected and got to some of the players on this tour.

3:15Steve Harmison:I also, Steve, the last time Barney was on, he was on with Bumble and we were talking about the beauty of cricket if the administrators realised that different people can like different things and get different things out of the sport and as a lover I love all the formats but when it comes to test cricket I want to love that format I want the ebb and flow of four or five days I want the nuances of spin I want the tactics i want an afternoon session to drift if if that's the case and i do genuinely feel like if you love test cricket you've kind of been robbed of that yeah i know you i know what you're

3:56Chappers:saying i said before this test series started because it was so eagerly awaited and because i felt you know all the the noise that basball might have had a chance in australia and you know Australia is a difficult place to talk for me this test series was going to I think put franchise cricket on the back burner and really hopefully put it not an end to it because you're never ever going to put an end to franchise cricket but the noise that franchise cricket and the money that's in the game and where it's deviating towards I thought right this could be the one test match series that bangs its fist on the table and goes right this is why we love test cricket because Stokes' team is going to go to Australia and really have a red-hot goal against an Australian side, which I thought was there for the taking.

4:49But, unfortunately,

4:51Chappers:when you only have 17 days cricket, the days off in between are the ones that put pressure on you as a player because the negativity around it has just been relentless because of the mistakes England have made. However you want to dress it up, England have made a huge amount of mistakes to get themselves in a position where they've lost 4-1 they've had huge amount of pressure on them because of you know the cricket that they've played but going into the into the series right the very start i thought you know what ilt20 is going on the ipl auction's going on big bash is going on horizon of the ipl this test series is going to put test match cricket back on the map and everybody's going to want to be a test match cricketer again and unfortunately didn't happen i don't know barney if there is a

5:38Steve Harmison:Is there a sense of regret in Australia, even though they've won 4-1, or is that a particularly daft question?

5:44Barney Ronay:No, there is a sense of regret. People in this country love Test cricket. It's totally tied into their summer. You know, it's basically their Christmas, and they feel really let down. They feel angry. I mean, that's why we had this extraordinary theatre of the pitch of the MCG with the groundsman or the curator having a kind of McCarthyite inquisition on the steps of the MCG. It was like they were going to dunk him as a witch because he didn't mow the lawn properly. They were really disappointed. Cricket Australia lost a lot of money. But in Australia, cricket is the national summer sport. It's massive and they love test cricket.

6:23Barney Ronay:They don't really care about the short form stuff, even though they know it's important. And it's been a real disappointment for them that I think a lot of the usual hostility towards England has also just turned into frustration. But this tour didn't really have a chance. Like we're talking, like Harmi's talking about what we all want for Test cricket to kind of reassert itself or what most people like cricket want. And that battle's kind of already been lost. This tour was this isolated thing in the middle of endless commitments. They didn't practice properly because they had to go and play a white ball tour in New Zealand, which they then didn't even prepare properly for that.

7:01Barney Ronay:You can't cut those corners. England might well have still lost, even if they had done the preparation. But when you don't do the preparation, it just falls to pieces. The bowlers didn't look match fit, didn't look to have any rhythm. They had that one really adrenal day where everybody bowled really well in Perth. And that was incredibly misleading because after that, they just didn't look ready for it. And you have to prepare for that, this form of the game. It's really unforgiving. You have to be ready in so many ways. Australia's bowlers all played three, at least three shield games coming into it.

7:31Barney Ronay:They prepared properly and normally. I think it just made a huge difference. It's really prosaic, but it just comes down to that. And England were not prepared, ready to commit to actually doing that, which might have displeased some of the players, might have interrupted some of their scheduling, but they kind of got what they deserved.

7:49Steve Harmison:Off the back of that then, and there are so many different facets to England, as we come on to England now, and where they've gone wrong and what they can do better. Let's deal with the bowling side of things first, Steve. And the fact that so many of them appear to be wrapped in cotton wool the majority of the time. And I appreciate, look, Joffre Archer and Mark Wood may be slightly different because of injuries. But there have been times over the course of a domestic season where it appears to be that the one thing England don't want their bowlers to do is bowl.

8:23Chappers:Yeah, I mean, we haven't got enough time for that. I mean, Chappers, you've not got enough time for that to get me off my soapbox. I am an old school fast bowler who, unfortunately, until Doomsday, the only way you can get fit for test match cricket. I mean, there's a clue in the title. It's test match cricket. It's five days long. If you want to be a successful side, your bowlers are going to be in the field and probably cover the distances between 40 and 50 kilometers a test match. You're going to have to bowl 45 overs, 50 overs in a test match. if you want to win because you know good sides bowl a lot because they are constantly on on top and you know asking questions of the opposition you know making teams follow on all this stuff you need to be a bowler you can't do that by just i mean a marathon runner doesn't he doesn't train by running 100 meter sprints and as much as it might not be fashionable i think there's a lot you've layers you can take into this you know the sports science element of of cricket now of all sports now is so detailed it's ridiculous and you're getting people who are i mean the tail's wagging the dog a little bit this is something i've said throughout the summer that when somebody is coming to tell you that you're in a red zone i mean what is the red zone you know you're in a red zone your body's this and your body's that because you've got a gps on and he's telling you not to bowl i mean you get to tea time and it's 40 degrees and it's flat in Adelhead you can't wave to the physio and say by the way you tell me I'm in the red zone can I come off now it doesn't happen you have to be ready for it and train for it and this is where a little bit of where I'll stick up for Joffre is that when they talk about the pillar and he bowled at 129 130 at the end of a day you could see his body wasn't conditioned to bowl his fourth and fifth spell at the back end of a day where England it's not just England it's a lot of teams around the world when you're playing test match cricket and you're a fast bowler your body needs to be pushed to an endurance limit over five test matches and unfortunately i don't think the right people are are getting bowlers prepared to bowl for that length of time i think it's people who haven't done it who are having an influence now in the game which i think is maybe is causing a little bit of a problem because bowling coaches are working on their technical aspects of it and a fitness coach is trying to get you fit there's only one where you can get fit for bowling especially a test match and that's to have volume if you want to have repetition the repetition needs breeds confidence the confidence you know the bowling side of it all that comes unfortunately if you get to spell three and spell four and spell five and you're five ten kilometers down the batter will then take you down and then the confidence element comes to it so it's a vicious circle and also the

11:19Steve Harmison:comparison Barney is you know Australia have an attack with about an average age of 43 and they are metronomic and cause problems and the other question that came in the bowlers preparation was England decided far out that pace was going to be there was going to be their tactic here when a lot of people tell me that actually pace hasn't been successful in a lot of cricket in Australia for a while it's it's more the not the dibbly-dobblers but you know taking a little bit off it and making it move and they're the bowlers that have caused the main problem.

11:57Barney Ronay:I've seen the briefing document that this level of decision making is based on this was actually given to county coaches by England's hierarchy as this is what we want and it's so utterly basic in what it says basically they looked at who are the most successful bowlers well it's kagiso rabada it's bumra okay so you got a bowl 87 miles an hour on this length consistently that's what we want do that with no actual analysis of okay what about conditions what about what do we actually have what we can we develop in this country i mean i just feel that the level of analysis there is so basic. If you presented that to a CEO of a company and said, look, we're going to go into this market based on these incredibly basic facts that we haven't properly analysed, they'd laugh you out of the room.

12:51Chappers:You have to balance it out, Chappers, as well. The balance of your attack, we seem to have a one-size-fits-all, right? We need 90 mile-mile bowlers that hits the deck hard and come from a tall release point. Like Barney said, the level of detail of what we want as a bowling unit. but they've got to bowl together you know you've got Josh Tong and Brian Kast who probably shouldn't play in the same side because they've got you know their characteristics are very very similar you look at the teams around the world you mentioned there Kigisa Rabada you look at Mitch Stark you know the best bow and attack that's going around is the Australian one it's a balanced attack but again it comes back and if you want to flip it back because it'll always come back to the preparation side.

13:34Chappers:England have gone to Australia without Paul Collingwood, who is a fitness coach, sorry, a fielding coach, has been there for quite a while. England dropped 17 catches. He wasn't there in the summer. England dropped 18 catches. England didn't employ anybody else to go with him. We've gone with two or three less coaches. Our bowling coach disappeared and sat on a bench in the ILT20 for five test matches. And we bring in David Saker, who's a good man, who didn't really know these bowlers. And we carried a Marcus Triscothic, an opening batter, and as a batting coach, we didn't have a spare opening batter on the tour.

14:11Chappers:And we had Jeetan Patel, Brendan McCollum's best mate, as a spin bowling coach, and we didn't play a spinner for five test matches. So all in all, just throw the whole thing into a melting pot. I mean, Austria didn't have to work that hard to beat England in this trip.

14:28Steve Harmison:I'd have loved to have been those county cricket directors who got that briefing document of, we need to find bowlers like Jasprit Brunner. It's like, blimey. I mean, he's unique. How on earth can you use him as an example of what you need to find? Nobody can bowl like Brunner. Don't go anywhere. We'll have more from Stephen Barney next. The Sports Agents.

14:51Steve Harmison:The Sports Agents.

14:53Barney Ronay:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

14:57Steve Harmison:What happens now then for you, Steve, In the sense of, Ashes Tours are notorious, but they go wrong, and immediately we have a review, and everything gets thrown out, and we start again. I go back to a Michael Vaughan comment about, I think after England had lost in Australia in 2003, and he said, actually, the final test in Sydney gave him a really good idea of what he needed before the summer of 2005. and actually what happened in Australia gave him a really good plan and actually helped him. So it can't be throw everybody out, can it? It has to be learning, doesn't it?

15:42Chappers:Yeah, I mean, it has to. I think the one thing what I'll say about this whole tour is it's always an Ashes tour is about raw emotion. So that has to be dampened down and it has to be adults in a room chat about what's gone wrong could we prevented things everything that goes with that you know typical a debrief of where this series has gone the one for me that's vulnerable or should be vulnerable is the coach he sends him he sets the tone sets a message he's the one that should have every stone unturned to make sure that the bump in the road that always comes in a five match series we have enough to combat that now i don't think we did have that the captain for me that i can't see a team england team while ben stokes is in the one to eleven where he's not captain and yes he might have made mistakes but for me he should still be captain i go back to the first two years of this this um regime and the only thing that's keeping me from sort of giving McCullum a chance is that we were one win from 17.

16:50Chappers:We changed the narrative of English cricket and everything for me was looking so good. What's happened in that 18 months? Have we got blind faith in the players who weren't good enough? That needs to possibly change. Have we got complacent in our methods and mentality? All these questions for me need to be answered. And I think Brendan in the first two years has deserved the chance to think whether he can be the person that possibly changes to make England go better in the next cycle of Asher's cycle, because he's contracted to the end of the next Asher's. For me, Rob Key does the same. I think Keyes has put a lot of good work in when it comes to the pathway.

17:34Chappers:We've got some exciting young cricketers, but at the minute, they're very, very young. They're very, very talented. what are they being taught and this is where the next phase comes through so i think rob key i think he he holds his job for that because there's a lot of things that go behind the scenes that i think in in his tenureship over three and a half years has gone well for england but the person i think who has possibly fell asleep at the wheel and let the position it's got to is the coach and it's whether we feel as though it's the right thing for him to carry on if he can rectify the mistakes because he's owned up and said, we've made mistakes.

18:14Chappers:Is he man enough to go and put them mistakes right or big enough to put them right or good enough as a coach to put them right? That's got to be for the bosses at the top.

18:25Steve Harmison:You wonder, Barney, don't you, whether they need people to challenge them across the management level. Or more pertinently, whether they will allow people to challenge them.

18:39Barney Ronay:That's the problem. Yeah, Key and McCollum's not a good double act. You've got two no-details people. I think Rob Key is a really interesting bloke and has his heart entirely in the right place and understands the game. But he's not a details man and he needs somebody to help him in that sense. Too many things have been too slack. And when you combine that with... I mean, McCollum's not a learning kind of guy. That's the USP. He's authentic. He's just himself. To ask him to learn, change, accept guidance, I just don't see how that works. You've employed him for the whole point that he pairs things back.

19:19Barney Ronay:If you then try to say, we want baths with brains, I don't know what that is. I don't know if that exists, if that's actually a thing. I have a lot of sympathy for Rob Kean. He's very good at explaining what went wrong under his watch. Well, that doesn't mean it didn't go wrong. and there does have to be accountability. One of the big problems of English cricket and indeed English society is the sense of that there isn't accountability in power. And while you don't change things by getting rid of the person at the top and it would leave a huge hole, you do have to feel that there is accountability and that there will be consequences because it's part of the problem with this entire regime.

19:53Barney Ronay:It's been very loose and it seems fine not to, we couldn't find a bouncy pitch in Australia to warm up in. We didn't think people needed to see a pink ball until they actually played a pink ball test. These are terrible decisions. And somehow we're saying, well, there shouldn't be accountability for that. I think that there should. And I agree with Steve that probably McCollum, if they can afford to get rid of him, is the one who looks most vulnerable.

20:16Chappers:The World T20 is massive. Nothing's going to change and nothing should change until the World T20. If England go and win the World T20, then I think Brendan Bison... But that would be really misleading.

20:28Barney Ronay:McCollum is not a good white ball coach. His record is terrible. And that could be the final nil. Anyone can win a T20 competition. You can get to the semifinals almost by accident and then you have a couple of days. It would actually be misleading for England to win that because it would suggest some kind of method is being put in place that's useful. Ideally, they would perform to their level there. But if they win it, I don't think it changes anything. Is Jacob Bethel the biggest positive from the fifth test?