Can Forest play 'Ange-ball' & The ex-Arsenal man leading Spurs new era?

13:59Mark Goldbridge:OK, to talk all things Spurs, new era, power struggles and where we are in terms of the sale potentially of Spurs, we have from the Fighting Cock Spurs podcast, Gareth Flavel and Simon Collings of The Standards. Thanks for coming on both of you. Can we start, Flav, with Daniel Levy and what you sense is the overarching kind of sentiment towards his departure? Because over those years, those many years, he did polarise opinion quite a lot, didn't he? Yeah, I think towards the latter part of his tenureship, for sure. I mean, I've gone through the whole process of thinking he's the best operator in football to certainly the last 24 months thinking we can't even dream about winning the league while he's in charge.

14:48But I think generally in the Tottenham fan base, everyone's kind of accepting and glad that he's gone because we can dream of a future that might be a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more proactive. Yeah, I think there's a quiet optimism.

15:01Gabby Agbonlahor:So is that what you think of the last 24 months, that he hasn't been proactive? And if so, where hasn't he been proactive? What do you mean by that? Okay, so what we've seen in the last 24 months, especially the last 12 months, is football cubs begin to act differently in the transfer market specifically in a way that Daniel Levy is not used to and completely uncomfortable with. In order to keep pace with the teams that we consider to be our rivals, all of the big six in inverted commas, then we need to be a little bit more aggressive and seemingly have a plan in place that meant that we get our targets when we want them.

15:43And I know that's sort of idealistic, but a terrible example of this, but an example of it is the signing of Javis Simmonds, who was probably third in our list, probably wasn't even on the list. And it was only when the collapse of the Ezel deal and him moving to our fiercest of rivals. It was a great example of his, I wouldn't say bumbling, but nitpicking at details, which meant that the deal would often fall through his fingers. And I feel, and I might be wrong, but it's my assumption is that he just wasn't aggressive enough.

16:17Mark Goldbridge:Does he have a point, Simon, do you think? Has that been something that's become increasingly obvious over the last couple of years? And when Flav says the way transfers happen has changed over the last two years, he's not kept up with that? I mean, I think with Daniel Levy, you can never argue in terms of the business side of football, the job he's done. I think he's amazing. I think the transfer side is interesting. And I think we've kind of seen the changes at Tottenham that are happening a bit with Johan Langer coming in, certainly with other clubs, having kind of one person in charge of doing that transfer operation isn't really the way it's massively done.

16:54I think with Tottenham, certainly with Inai coming in, I think you might see a bit more of the power being shared and diluted around and people having different responsibilities rather than I think these days are sort of 10 to 15 years ago of two owners or chairman threshing out a deal together doesn't really happen anymore I think recruitment departments are so vast now and the game has

17:12Gabby Agbonlahor:evolved in that respect I suppose that is maybe the bigger fault then would you say Gareth in that he didn't implement a structure under him until until too late and tried to do a lot of these things himself which maybe weren't his strengths in the modern era of football what was his strengths in 15 years ago 10 years ago even five years ago suddenly became his weaknesses because of the way things changed so I don't know if you guys know about this but during the Conte era of Tottenham there was an independent review of the the structure of Tottenham and how the decisions have been made and why despite the money being spent we could never kind of bridge the gap between the top and sort of fifth or sixth place and it's that report which usually typically I'll be told generally so you might take on some parts of the report to change the way you operate but we've taken a lot from that report to make massive changes we've seen Donna Cullen step down and Daniel Levy's now gone that's huge seismic changes and I just think for over the last 24 years certainly maybe the last 23 years Daniel Levy's really gone unchallenged because he has been de facto power broker at the football club and that's fine because he did a good job and and created a football club that we as fans have an elevated expectation of what we should be able to achieve compared to the one that we had and i remember it when he took over in 2001 which was we had no hope really maybe qualifying for the uefa cup through the fair play league was like my i used to dream about that so you know we're a different football club now because of him we should be grateful for it.

18:47But yeah, I think that perhaps he had too much control for too long. And if you believe reports, he was in the room with Steve Parrish, chairman to chairman, which Simon says is kind of like an archaic way of doing business. And he didn't get that deal done.

19:01Mark Goldbridge:Simon, can we just kind of explain where the power lies in the club? Because he still has 30 % of Enoch, which a lot of protests in the club are aimed there. The Lewis family obviously own the whole company. So while he's not sitting in the room making those decisions and trying to bring players in and sell players, he's still got quite a sizable share of that company. Yeah, he obviously still has a share in the company. But I think this past week or past 10 days or so has shown us that the real power here lies with the Lewis family. I think we can see the kind of influence growing. I think it's been reported this week in some of the newspapers was about the sort of going to be a showing a face at the West Ham game and kind of showing the driving forward and taking the club.

19:49I think an interesting point of that is obviously from a support viewpoint, Daniel Levy has often been the kind of focal point for criticism. You know, he's been the kind of face of it. I think now he's gone. I think the Lewis family are going to be front and centre and everyone's going to see how is this going to play out because they have kind of taken authority of the situation. and I think they're hoping they've got a structure in place that can drive success. And I think they're quite bullish about the plans for success and investment going forward.

20:17Gabby Agbonlahor:Do they want a structure in place to make the club successful or do they want a structure in place to make the club sellable? Oh, that's the question, isn't it? I mean, if you read the sort of messages that's been coming out, they are targeting on-pitch success, aren't they? I think a lot of people will look at this and now an opportunity for Spurs to be on the market. The club have been very clear. I think we saw the statement, didn't we, only a day ago where they're saying it's not for sale. We've seen the reports about Amanda Stavely, reports from Asia. I think if you are looking at clubs that you want to come and invest in, I think people will view Tottenham as that big asset.

20:56When you look at that stadium, it's an incredible stadium. I know I'll come back to it, but it's multifunctional. You've got concerts there, you've got NFL there. It is a huge, huge, huge club. But so far, the Lewis family have been clear that they don't want to sell.

21:08Mark Goldbridge:They're not mutually exclusive, are they? Because obviously it serves them to have success on the pitch. It drives up the price. They value the club around four billion. So I guess they want success on the pitch. They can say that because of course they do. They want success on the pitch. They're successful people. And that's what you want, Flav. And that's what Spurs fans want as well. So let's talk new eras. And obviously, Vinay coming in to do what, as far as you're aware? I hope turn this into a football club that is just that, not essentially a multi-purpose franchise that does lots of things.

21:44Actually, first and foremost, we are a football team and a football club. And when you think of the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, it's where Tottenham Hotspur play football, not where Beyonce turns up five nights a year. So I think that is key. I think that Vino Venkatesham is very much a football-focused man and has proved that past, you know working for the other football club in north london and so where daniel levy had many interests and many amazing talents you know building revenue thank session i would assume and i hope is focused purely on or as much as he can be on the um the men's and women's team and developing those so uh that that's that's what i would see as a massive change in the right direction because i don't think any of us is suddenly expecting us to blow 400 million pound in the transfer market because of the landscape of football and how restrictive spending can be, depending on your relative position in the league.

22:38It's not that. It's just a change in energy. And it was what I was mentioning at the start about being aggressive and being on the front foot and believing that Spurs belong at the top of the table rather than just making up places in the Europa League spots. If you go back, I don't know, 10 to 15 years,

22:58Gabby Agbonlahor:Spurs were very good at finding like unproven young talent and then turning I mean Kyle Walker's I know Kyle Walker had a lot of attention at Sheffield United but Kyle Walker's quite a good example several fullbacks of that Mauricio Pochettino era they were good at finding those players and then turning them into something that other members of the top six then spent a so-called top six spent a lot of money on that seems to have disappeared And also, if you compare them to the other sort of elite clubs within the Premier League, Spurs haven't brought through their own players, have they really, in the last decade?

23:37Gabby Agbonlahor:I mean, you certainly look at, I know you don't want to, but look at what Arsenal or maybe Chelsea have done. And Spurs feel massively behind there. Does that all come down to structure, do you think? It's a very difficult question to answer because there's so many facets to why we don't operate like that anymore. but yeah there has been a massive issue despite the massive investment in the training center and it's supposed to be incredible and like the best in Europe and all that sort of stuff but we haven't seen any players come through yet and it's massively important with current PSR rules that you have or unable to produce players that you can you can sell on even if they're not quite ready for the first team so that is an issue but to your first point if you remember that Pochettino side it was made up entirely of players that were unproven at Premier League level and then developed including Harry Kane right so you had Harry Kane you had Dele Alli you had Humminson who came from Germany Ericsson from Ajax, Patongan, Adar Wehrleud, Karl Walker, Danny Rose, Dembele in midfield from Fulham, Eric Dier so these are these are none of those players would have necessarily been fancied by Premier League clubs and we had a blueprint there and an impeccable manager in Pochettino now there was a massive shift when Mourinho came in because that development or that understanding of what Tottenham we thought Tottenham were disappeared very quickly and continued to disappear into the Conte era.

24:54And this is where it started to fall apart for Daniel Levy in significant terms for the majority of the fan base is that we lost what we thought we were. I get why he did it. I understand bringing Mourinho in was very attractive and I was excited at the time and I didn't blame him. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing. And when you're at that level, you pay for bad decisions and that's what he has done, I think.

25:17Mark Goldbridge:Simon, let's go a little bit deeper into Vinay and what we think he is going to bring. And you've addressed it, Flav. You know, he spent 14 years at Arsenal. I know he's a businessman and I know he's not, you know, somebody who's kind of gone around kissing the badge and everything. But psychologically, is that a problem? Do you think, you know, does he have to kind of wash himself of his gooness spirit before he can take on the job at Spurs? And then what did he do that you think is proof that he can change something inherent in Spurs' ability to get themselves where they think they should be?

25:56Yeah, I don't think it's quite as extreme as the Sol Campbell move across North London. I do remember interviewing Binah a few years ago and he was very passionate about Arsenal and talk about if they lost the game, he would take a longer drive home to try and cool off. But I think this is different to a player on the pitch. This is obviously a kind of higher executive kind of move. I think a big thing with Vinay and what he'll bring is communication. You speak to people at Arsenal, you speak to fans of Arsenal. That was a big, big thing. And it was noticeable when he left Arsenal, the Arsenal supporters trust put out a statement saying how sad they were about it, how much they'd enjoyed communicating with Vinay.

26:35He would come to forums, advisory boards. he would be there particularly after the whole Super League incident which was you know a disaster for a lot of those clubs involved with it he was very much front-facing and spoke to sports and I think when we're talking about new eras you know the Lewis family having someone who can communicate with fans is going to be far too I think we've seen it in the past few days with with Dineye taking the lead of that so that's where I think he will be really key for them I think also the women's side again at Arsenal he was one of the ones really pushing that he was pushing them to play at the Emirates more he was a driver of that and then the business side of it um you know he has worked in football for 14 years at Arsenal but before that uh you know he was on the commercial team for London 2012 for Arsenal that's where he started he kind of moved up the ranks but he will be very big on that and and that is something the Spurs will need to drive because you look at the stadium they've still not done the naming rights for that and I think that'll be a big thing when they're moving forward that he'll want to get done we've heard

27:28Gabby Agbonlahor:about the naming rights for so long haven't we and they still haven't been done and they that must be crucial for them as a business going forward for two reasons i suppose one as gareth has has spoken about psr slash squad cost going forward they haven't got academy players or proven academy players that have come into the first team to be able to sell for pure profit and after the sort of decision yesterday between the premier league and manchester city on associated sponsors and how that will work and market value, they're kind of at a disadvantage there in that their owners can't bring any of that to the table.

28:09Gabby Agbonlahor:I know it's still going to be monitored, but market value is very subjective, isn't it? So how much do they still feel they're having to play catch up a bit here? It is a strange thing. I mean, you think that stadium's been six years in operation now and you still don't have the rights for it. I think the last time I was looking at Levy spoke about it, I think it was a couple of years ago, a fan Q &A, and he said they hadn't quite found the right sort of brand to match the values. And there is an extent of that because kind of once you sell that naming rights, if you speak to people in business, it's very difficult to then sell that to a new brand.

28:43If you think of Arsenal and the Emirates, the new brand came in and took over the name rights, you'd still find a lot of people in the street still calling that stadium the Emirates. So it's kind of a deal you've got to get right. And I think the interesting thing will be with City, if that Etihad deal goes through, which we think it will after the APT deal, is kind of what the market value is and what that shifts in terms of what clubs think they can get in. I think it'll be interesting. And I suppose Spurs' argument would be they missed out on money perhaps in those previous years. But if you can now get a deal at a time when the market is increasing for stadium rights, then maybe it'll be a big benefit.

29:16But I think financially, that is something that I think people in the business world do find strange that they haven't had a naming rights deal for a stadium that's been opened this long.

29:24Mark Goldbridge:So can just to kind of like kind of sum up the power within the club then right now and where you see that both Simon go to you first on who is the person that's going to replace Daniel Levy you know will Vinay be alongside somebody else will there be somebody from the Lewis family represented who who decides does anybody consult Thomas Frank you know how how is this going to work if if Daniel Levy had such a stranglehold on that before you know there's obviously a vacuum there isn't there who feels it i think vinay will take a key role in that uh in going forward in terms of of leading the club i think he will be a lot more front facing i think the interesting to see will be whether at ask what worked very well with vinay when they almost kind of sort of divided the power at the top of the club where vinay would do a lot of the business side of it um you know a lot of the sort of commercial things and then they had the footballing side which Edu and Arteta would run together and they kind of married up very well it worked a very slick operation I suppose at Spurs you could do that if you have Vinay sort of leading that and then you've got Johan Lang and Thomas Frank working together I think ultimately though what we've seen this last week is that the the full power lies with the Lewis family and this won't happen or the sort of structure won't facilitate without their sort of approval and sign off but I think Vinay coming in is certainly going to be a key role and that vacuum will need to be filled and I think he will have a big say in things going forward.

30:46I think the vacuum is filled in the short term by Vino Vekitesh and with the knowledge that there is a strong football infrastructure beneath him in Piratichi coming back and Langer in place as director of football. And then you have Thomas Frank, which is an excellent coach. And obviously all of these stories kind of disappear if Spurs and questions and power vacuums and stuff like that disappear when Spurs are winning on the football pitch. and Thomas Frank's in an excellent position to do that. So I think in the short term, next three to five years, my guess as a football fan would be that they would look to build, as you mentioned earlier, Gabby, build a football club, make them one that competes in the Champions League, increase the value of the club and eventually it will be sold.

31:31I think it's inevitable that there will be some interest and there has been interest from the Middle East and in America and Spurs will be sold at some point in the future. But in the short term, I think there's enough there to steady the ship in these rocky waters that we find ourselves in at the moment.

31:50Gabby Agbonlahor:So does this move give you a better chance of catching some of those other top clubs? And if so, if you say in three to five years' time, in three years' time, where do you think you should finish in the league? The problem was, right, it's a difficult question to answer because it's impossible to predict, But the problem was Daniel Levy was okay with our position. He was fine with what Tottenham were. And that was one that meant that we could never interrupt what is the kind of elite teams in the Premier League. And we've done it once or twice, but really it was a flash in the pan, lightning in the bottle moment.

32:25In order for there to be any optimism in winning the league one day, because it is a dream, but it can happen, then something had to change. so whatever that is we hope and it's it's there's no guarantees and the grass is always greener and there's this there are many cliches that you can use to describe the situation we find ourselves in and there's no guarantee it gets better than when Daniel Levy is is there but how long do you maintain the status quo and you have to dream and believe a little bit you have to at this point be optimistic about the future so in three years we'll win the league if you want to produce

33:00Gabby Agbonlahor:I don't know is it a very a very different role but you actually got through that answer without mentioning Alan Kerbishley and Charlton, which is kind of what always happens in this situation.

33:09Mark Goldbridge:I've got to ask you as well, Flav, how you feel about your former manager, previous manager, coming back into the Premier League. Of course, Nuno was sacked late last night. We found out about it anyway. And Big Ange expected to be announced later today as Norlingham Forest's new manager. I'm very happy for him. You know, I've genuinely, over the last two years, despite witnessing hands down the worst domestic league I've ever experienced as a Spurs fan we would have been relegated if it was any worse despite that he has a magnetism and a charisma about him that's so rare in in in football management and it's intoxicating when he's at your football club it is intoxicating and I think you probably probably got a little bit more rope than you would have done because of how you know infatuated many of us were with him however there should be some reservations and questions from the Forrest support because he's completely different from Nuno a completely different brand of football and what they've got used to is being hard to beat great on the counter and what Ange Postacoglu's team isn't it's hard to beat and so they're gonna have to get used to it but they'll have a lot of fun and they will they will fall in love with him

34:19Gabby Agbonlahor:like we all did but they also Simon and you will know from I'm guessing your time of dealing with then Forrest will need to get the personality of Postacoglu from year one, not the sort of unhappy it did appear, Postacoglu of year two. Yeah. I mean, it is a big change in terms of styles from Nuno to Postacoglu. It's a big shift. And I remember I was lucky enough to go two years ago was when Hand had just been hired and they toured Australia, luckily Spurs, just before the Women's World Cup and I got to go see Spurs out there. And he did a sort of round table with three or four of us. And he was, yeah, so engaging, so charismatic.

35:02And you could kind of see just his vision was so clear. And that enthusiasm, I remember back, you know, I'm sure Gav remembers those first 10, 12 games of his era, the momentum that sort of swept him there and the energy he had was so, so key. And then it kind of drifted, didn't it, in that second season. But even right at the end, you know, talk about how he can lure you in. that speech he gave after the trophy parade. And I remember there were a lot of Spurs fans who before that speech were like, he's got to go. And then they hear the speech and they're like, actually, let's do one more season.

35:30So I think... I was there. I was there. I was on radio. So the BBC rung me up literally after he'd been sacked. And I was nearly... I weren't in tears because I'm a grown man, right? But I was like pretty emotional. I'm really angry at Daniel Lieber. How could you? He's delivered the first trophy in years. How could you do this, Daniel? and then obviously the dust settles a little bit and then the emotions are gone and then obviously the speech was just a week ago and then you start thinking, well, we did finish 17th, didn't we? Yeah, and he did also show some pragmatism, I think, in that Europa League run, didn't he?

36:04There was a kind of shift in the style. I think for the Premier League, it's quite exciting to have Ange back, particularly if we get the Ange back from that first season. I know from his press conferences, he could be very entertaining, but I mean, it is crazy that he's going into that job and his first game is away to Arsenal. And Eddie obviously should be back in the director's box for the first time since he left the club. So if there was anything to get fans wishing the international break was over, I think that being the opening game is pretty much it.

36:31Mark Goldbridge:Okay, just time before we go today to tell you about a bonus episode dropping tomorrow, so stay right there.

36:36Gabby Agbonlahor:The Sports Agents.

36:40Gabby Agbonlahor:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

36:47Mark Goldbridge:So as it's the international break, tomorrow we're going to be dropping a special episode from Mark Bugatch and journalist Paul Hayward over on Global's Sports History Podcast, how it all played out.

36:58Gabby Agbonlahor:They've been taking a special look back at Sven's time in charge of England, England's first foreign manager, of course. There are, if you listen to the pod, some interesting parallels with Thomas Tuchel's England right now. So hit subscribe or follow wherever you listen to the sports agents and you won't miss it. That will drop tomorrow.

37:16Mark Goldbridge:But that's it from us today. If you've got a question for us or a topic you want us to cover on the podcast, do get in touch. Sometimes we do actually do that, don't we? We did it last week. We did an episode on Grand Slam Track, which was prompted by one of you. So thank you for that. Get in touch on email, thesportsagentsaglobal.com or on our socials or via the link in the episode description.

37:37Gabby Agbonlahor:We'll see you on Thursday. Thanks for listening.

37:44die