Can Sarina's super-subs fire Lionesses to Euros glory & Gabby's Isak plea

0:02This is a Global Player Original Podcast. England haven't made it easy for themselves or for the fans. They've left us sweating right till the death, only leading in knockout matches for a total of five minutes. But they found a way and the Lionesses are into the Euros finals once again. A chance to defend their crown. Their saviours have been their super subs, Chloe Kelly and teenager Michelle Adjumang. Four years ago, Adjumang was a ball girl at Wembley. Now she's responsible for the two most important goals of the tournament. Kelly scored the latest goal ever recorded at a women's Euros to propel England out of the semifinals and into a rematch of the World Cup final of two years ago.

0:43Seven months ago, Chloe Kelly was ready to quit football. Chloe Kelly to win it. There's the high step. I've seen this time and the rebound is forced in. And England are 2-1 out. Italy cannot believe this but they're heading out and the reigning champions are heading through But everyone knows England can't afford to keep leaving it so late against the Spanish powerhouse Does Wigman need to make the changes sooner or is it just a case of in Serena we trust She's guided them to three major finals in a row Could she make it two trophies out of three and a penny for the thoughts of Mary Earps and Millie Bright right now Welcome to the Sports Agents

1:37The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman

1:44Hello, I'm at Twickenham today as in Rugby HQ Now I know we're all really invested in the Euros still with a few days to go to the final but I'm here today to interview a few of the Red Roses because England's women's rugby team will be starting their World Cup campaign on the 22nd of August. They are favourites. They're on a winning run of 25 matches. So they are the favourites. And we're going to be dropping those interviews in over the next couple of weeks or so. So if you want to hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watching this episode so you don't miss out on those, then do that.

2:16And if you're in need of a rugby fix right now, you could go back and check out our World Player of the Year, Ellie Kildun, interview about the Rugby World Cup and about the way England see themselves in terms of the way they brand themselves. And, of course, that involves the way she's taken the cowboy hat and reinvented it. In sport, in rugby, rugby is dying for personality and it's something that's a little bit different. And you see it in football and the celebrations are everywhere. You see Cole Palmer, everyone loves it. But in rugby, you don't really see it that much. So the fact that we stepped out of the norm and started doing that, now I've got a podcast called Rugby Rodeo.

2:52Well, the cowboy hats, Mark, at the weekend were being sold. at Twickenham, at the Allianz. I think we decided, Sarah Orchard kind of did a little bit of research, and it's the first ever piece of women-only specific merchandise. So the RFU have kind of, you know, gone and created those. They've seen the opportunity, definitely, because, I mean, you come to games and there's, everyone's got cowboy hats. Now, whether that's because of Taylor Swift, or if it is because of... You're taking it. I don't know. I think it's more you. I think it's more you. That and all our past episodes are available on YouTube or Global Player or wherever you get your podcasts.

3:27Next week, we've got a long overdue Q &A coming up. So send your questions in on socials at the Sports Agents on Insta, TikTok, or you can email us the sportsagents at global.com. Mark will be back for those. But back to today's episode. The Lionesses are in yet another Euros final this weekend. They get a chance to defend the title they won three years ago. But they did that in what seemed at the time like a very easy way, an easy way to get to that final. Big victories over Norway, a little wobble maybe against Spain and then a thrashing of Sweden in those semifinals. This time, it's been anything but smooth.

3:59They've had us all on the edge of our seats, haven't they? The way they started the tournament with the defeat to France and then, of course, those quarter and semifinals going down to the last minute against Sweden and Italy. And that's opened them up to a little bit more criticism than usual and maybe even questioned Serena Wiegmann's judgment when it came to substitutions and selections. But she's got us here, hasn't she? We can look forward to yet another final. So we're going to discuss all of that and their chances this weekend with former Lioness Anita Asante and the brilliant host of the Counterpress podcast, Flo Lloyd-Hughes.

4:31The Sports Agents.

4:35The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Flo, Anita, welcome to The Sports Agents. I am so excited, but also I can't believe I'm saying this, the tournament we've just had. And in fact, England's year building up to this, that England are in another final, their third consecutive final, hoping to retain the Euros that they won three years ago, especially considering the way they've got here. Anita, has it surprised you that they've managed, they've conspired to get themselves to this place? I think it surprised me that they've gotten themselves into a third final in terms of the performances that they've displayed throughout the tournament, but not in terms of the characters that we have in the team and the leaders and the belief, the resilience.

5:28I think they have shown that the other side of themselves, that they have the ability to dig deep and really stay focused and stick together in really challenging games. But also to shout out all of us, you know, the outside noise who are, you know, at times have doubted because, you know, they've kept us on the edge of our seats. Their attitude flow has been incredible, hasn't it? never say die, never giving up, never looking like a team that believes they're destined for anything other than a final and doing it in such a different way to that of three years ago, where they just seem to kind of cruise through that tournament with home support, scoring goals, record numbers of goals for fun.

6:11Yeah, it's been incredible, really, how they've come back from the brink twice in this tournament. Again, Sweden was remarkable already. And then you add what they did against Italy, where they were literally a minute away. from going out of the tournament and then somehow flip the script again. I do think there's been a bit of luck at hand. There's been the tremendous calm and composure of Michel Adjouman. And that is not just luck. That's a very talented footballer seizing the moment. But I do think that penalty maybe was a little bit lucky. Some of the other moments have been a bit lucky. But you make your own luck.

6:45And if you are a major tournament winner, you also have the mentality to progress. And I think that's the difference when you look at England compared to Italy, for example. as soon as they got that equaliser, you did feel like the depth, the experience was going to swing towards England's favour. Let's talk about Ajimang and indeed subs generally and Serena's attitude and kind of philosophy in the way she uses them. Three years ago, it was almost like clockwork, wasn't it? That Russo, Kelly, Toon would come on and the game, you know, would take a different kind of energy and momentum. She's mixed it up a bit, Anita, in terms of the time she's brought her subs on and those players, you know, apart from Kelly, who's still a super sub, those players are now starters.

7:27So she's bedding in these new women into their roles. And that has been something that's caused a few questions, hasn't it? Like, has she left it a bit too late in certain matches? But then you go, well, of course she hasn't because they won. So it's just been a different kind of Wiegmann philosophy. Yeah, most definitely, Gabby. And I think, you know, of course, some of us would like to see those subs come in a bit earlier just because, you know, we're looking at the clock thinking, is it doable? But the formula seems to be working. So, you know, in Serena, we trust. I just think that, you know, of course, it's down to the players that have come into the games and actually really embrace their role in the team and wanting to be the difference.

8:08That's that's what's mattered. And they've done exactly that. But I think it's also in game context, you know, as the games go on and the longer they stretch, I think these players have come in and seized those moments to really exploit the opposition where they are either fatigued or they're disjointed or they lack kind of that know-how, that tournament know-how and experience of reaching those latter stages. But also, this is a team that have played two games where they've taken its extra time. Like, I don't understand how they've had the physical energy, let alone the mental energy, to dig deep and still find the quality in those critical moments to turn the game around.

8:50So that is massive credit to them and to Serena, who, you know, I'm like, is she feeling calm on the sideline? I'm not sure. Is it a false sense of security? I've seen a few facial expressions that we didn't see a few years ago. I've seen a slightly more quizzical worried look this time, a slightly downturned mouth of looking a little bit like this is not what I was exactly planning. But Flo, Anita makes a great point there about the mental and physical exhaustion. Lucy Bronze didn't quite look in the first half of that semifinal like she'd recovered from that extra time and penalty experience that she was so instrumental in kind of progressing England in.

9:27Will that, do you think, change Serena's mind about where these finishes come? Will Ajumang have earned her place in the start line? I think so many of the England fans would love to see her energy and desire through a whole 90 minutes or 120. Well, I feel like everyone on this show speaking right now knows having watched Serena Wiegmann since 2021. Your heart tells you one thing, which is maybe we'll see some changes. Maybe she'll shake it up. maybe the substitutes have earned a place in the starting lineup. And I can completely agree with you, Gabby. I think not only did Bronz look exhausted, but I think Russo, James, Toon, there were some very fatigued players there.

10:08And who can blame them? I think that's really tough. But there's one thing we know about Serena Wigman. She sticks to her guns. She likes her routine and rhythm. And she doesn't tend to make huge changes to the starting lineup. We saw Morgan come in from Carter. We've seen in-game switches defensively. but really once she sees this as her 11 unless there's an injury issue she's going to play that 11 I would like to just see the changes come earlier if the reality is the starting line-up is going to be the same which it probably is I would like to see the changes earlier because really the changes felt like they came way too late against Italy and there could have been more time to to swing the game but I think the reality is that she's probably going to stick with that starting 11.

10:49Now the BBC's kind of campaign of this Women's Summer of Sport was was headlined, names will be made. I think we can all agree the biggest name that's been made has been Michelle Aujemang in terms of her breaking into the public's consciousness. And I read a brilliant column today on her saying that, you know, everything she embodies, the whole nation needs a bit more of. That kind of desire and energy and belief and never giving up. Did you come across her when you were coaching the under-23s, Anita? Yes, of course. She came through into our 23s programme relatively recently, you know, And I think she totally embodies all of those things.

11:25And everybody in that squad, including the staff, were like, wow, you know, this kid has something. Because she just settled into the group like she'd always been there. And I think that's been the same with the seniors. Just under two months coming into that senior fold and coming in, being impactful, looking like the pressure, the expectation, the occasion hasn't phased her at all is Michelle. I like she's enjoying it as well. There's a difference in not being phased and also just totally embodying it, enjoying it. Absolutely. You're seeing her going up to the crowd, giving it all some of this.

12:01You know, she's really relishing the moment. And I think we're going on this journey with her. We're literally watching in real time a star be born, in my opinion. And, you know, I think it's fantastic to see because tournament football is all about these incredible stories. and now she's got these followers now who are going to want to follow her. Well, yeah, and I think, Flo, you can tell the way the other players react around her. There is enormous fondness for her. They seem to really love her personality. Apparently, she's a brilliant piano player and has a piano in her room. She's doing her degree.

12:35She's, by all accounts, a very, very bright girl. A few of the players have said how intelligent she is. She's just got it all. I mean, she's the full package, right? Yeah, she has a massive maturity about her. You wouldn't necessarily know she was 19. And given that she has been playing at a fairly high youth level for so long, come up through the England age groups, but also been part of a professional environment such as Arsenal, but also balancing her degree alongside that shows that she has the maturity and the capacity to go far as a professional athlete. The challenge now is that she's shone with England at a major tournament and yet can't get consistent minutes in the WSL.

13:14So after this summer, it's going to be really interesting what happens because it's a very strange scenario to have someone who has become this star at a major tournament and yet isn't actually playing that much in the league. So that'll be really interesting for not just Arsenal, but if she goes on another loan deal, where is that going to be? Is she going to play, etc.? But in terms of right now, she has certainly shown that she's a tremendous talent. Anisha, I think that's going to change next season, surely. But it is also interesting that her story of kind of, you know, pushing herself out there and embracing it is aligned to another super sub, Chloe Kelly, almost not being here, you know, out of favourite Manchester City.

13:50Had to go to Arsenal to try and get herself some minutes and get herself back in the frame to get herself back into Serena's contention, looking as though she's kind of never skipped a beat, really. She comes on and has that impact so quickly in the game, as she did against Sweden, certainly after 63 seconds, and doesn't seem to mind that that's her role. You know, doesn't seem, I mean, she might be knocking on Serena's door right now for all we know, but doesn't seem resentful that she's still a super sub. No, exactly. And I think, you know, Chloe Kelly exudes confidence. you see that in the way she plays the way she embraces the challenge you know of coming into games trying to be impactful really wanting to take responsibility and be the difference we saw that in the last game against sweden and also in against italy and i think she is a player that you know sometimes you just need to be in the right environment to find that kind of love for the game again, that energy, recognise the value that she has in any team.

14:52She's been able to demonstrate that Arsenal obviously is staying there now. And for England, she's an important piece of the cog now because every game she comes into, it's almost part of the tactical plan. Chloe Kelly is going to be the player that comes in and changes the game somehow and brings it to life. Or is that spark of energy for the whole team as a collective? And you see the players, they completely trust her. You know, they are behind her. They want to give her the ball. They want to make things happen. So for me, I'm really, obviously, we're all happy to see her sort of rise again to the occasion.

15:26And she's spawned a whole new industry of printing your partner on your shin pads, a picture of you and your partner. So, you know, I'm ordering mine right now. And in terms of players who, you know, with so much attention was given to six weeks ago who were omitted from this squad, either through their own decisions or, you know, deciding to retire because they knew they weren't going to be part of Serena Viegman's plans, particularly Mary Earps and Millie Bright not being there. I think perhaps we thought there'd be a lot more noise than there has been. Hannah Hampton certainly has looked to the man of Bourne, hasn't she?

15:56Yeah, I think it's really interesting because the whole build-up to this tournament, there was a lot of noise. As much as Serena Viegman tried to quieten it down, there was always going to be because any squad loses that many key players in the lead-up to a major tournament, people are going to be talking about it. And even with the opening defeat against France, that only added to the pressure. And there was already this narrative building of what if the holders went out the group stage? And they were very close in the quarterfinal, very close in the semifinal. Now, even to just get to the final, it does put all that noise, I think, to the side, even if the performances, as Anita mentioned, haven't been great and haven't been as commanding and as authoritative as maybe England would like to be on this stage.

16:42And in Europe, they're in a major tournament final. And to be honest, both the men's and women's side have got very good at navigating major tournaments. And that's half the challenge because knockout football is a whole different environment. And the fact that they've done this now to have five finals in five years on both the men's and women's side, that's pretty remarkable stats, to be honest. Yeah, it is. And on that, actually, and what's happened in English football over the last 10, 15 years in terms of the plan for the DNA and age groups all playing the same way so that they kind of transition well through it.

17:11Another piece I read today was talking about perhaps the DNA of English football should just be about finding a way to win tournaments because for all the kind of technical and tactical kind of transition that you want through the age groups, you've got to know how to navigate a tournament, right? And that is what England seem to be getting better and better at. Now, obviously for the men, it's just falling short in those finals. But for England's women, Anita, they've led the way and found tournament football to be to their liking, haven't they? This is where they seem to excel because actually, as I mentioned before, in the build-up the last year, they were kind of going win-loss, win-loss, weren't they, in the build-up to the tournament?

17:46And yet they get into a tournament and it's like they're not going. They're not going anywhere. Is that coming from Serena? Is that coming from the individuals? Where has that mindset been created? I think it's a culmination of all of those things. I think it's Serena is the leader, really, of the team, managing individuals, managing that bubble. you know, keeping that tight. But I think it's also the leaders within the team and their personalities when they come into those games being like, you know, yes, this is hard. Tournament football should be hard. You're playing the best in Europe, but we're prepared to do the other side of the game, which does take that courage, a bit of bravery, a bit of grit, a bit of ugliness.

18:27You know, that is part of it. And I think that's what the players have been able to display especially in the last two games that level of resilience and I think that resilience and going from the brink to over the edge you know is actually what's given them probably more belief that it's possible and that it can be done and that's what we're seeing from England teams now is that they they know what's possible even when they don't always perform to the the best of the levels and the capabilities that we know they can. And do you know what Flo I found really interesting After that defeat to France, there was really negative kind of mood around.

19:04There was a lot of comment about, you know, the way they played, the way that France just totally dominated them. And I thought this will be a real test now for these women because, yes, they've been used to getting more and more critique as the sport has got bigger and bigger and the attention and the money and everything else gets bigger. But in tournament football, the last two things have been fairly smooth. And this is the first time they might have had and they've talked about shutting all the noise out. But according to a lot of my colleagues, I think Anita was there and we had the discussion with Farrah Williams.

19:30it's hard to shut that noise out. You know what people are saying. And to kind of counter that and to come through that without looking like they wanted to put the shutters down and not talk to the media, to still look like they're enjoying themselves, all of that I thought was really commendable and showed huge maturity actually within this squad. Yeah, I think it was Georgia Stanway who had to front up and do the press conference after the France game, just before that game against the Netherlands. And I thought she was phenomenal. She's now one of the more experienced players in the group. She's been at a few major tournaments with England.

20:02And she was very clear when someone asked her, have you thought about if you lose this game and you might be out of the tournament? She said, if we lose, we don't deserve to be here. And that was it, point blank. And I thought that was sort of the reality of not dodging around the question, not trying to dress it up as something it's not. The reality was they knew that they had to win. It was all or nothing. And probably that's been the theme of their entire tournament. even if it has been a little bit messy. I think Lucy Bronze talked so much about losing that game in 2015 to France and then ending up coming away with a bronze medal and how they navigated that setback initially.

20:41And I think Stanway mentioned Bronze talking to people about that in camp. And I think that has carried with them, just knowing that it's never the end of the world within games if you might be trailing. It'll be interesting if England were to score first on Sunday, how that might change the dynamic for once. OK, let's talk about this final. It is a rematch of the final in Sydney at the World Cup. And two of the golden boot contenders in this tournament are from Spain. In Gonzalez and Porteas, four and three for those two. Spain have scored 17 goals in five matches, England 16. So clearly, you know, Spain have got some very special goal scorers.

21:20Is that going to affect the way do you think they set up against England? Because this defence is looking a little bit makeshift, a little bit rocky Anita for England? Yeah, I think for Spain, we know they have weapons all over, you know, all over that team. And we know that they have superstars that can turn a game on a dime. We saw that in the final minutes against Germany in added time with Bon Mati, who really, you know, that's her first goal in the tournament. You know, I think we expected her to be one of the key focuses of the Spanish side. But for England, I think, you know, Of course, they know Spain, have played them a number of times now.

21:58They have to be aware of those threats. They have to manage space in particular. They're so good technically in tight areas. So that central corridor of being compact is going to be vital. But equally, Spain have looked vulnerable. They've conceded in a lot of the games in this competition throughout the group stages and obviously the knockout round. And I think they have shown that if you can exploit that high line, with some quality, then you can actually put them on the back foot. And I think we have the players to do that. We just have to get into a good start and of course, just don't allow Spain into a rhythm.

22:35Now, I know other nationalities were involved, but does that Champions League final between Arsenal and Barcelona, because Barcelona are predominantly the Spanish team compared to say Arsenal, who are much more of an international mix. Does that count for anything in terms of the confidence for the English players who are involved in that performance, certainly? I think so. I think massively. I think that will give plenty of the Arsenal team that were involved in that, who play for England, huge confidence. And even those who play for Chelsea, who may have been involved in very close, but unfortunately losing ties against Barcelona.

23:07I think it shows how the Spanish style and the Spanish team can be got at a little bit. And England did lose to Spain in the Nations League just before the Euros, but they did beat them at Wembley as well. And that game should be a bit of a blueprint for Serena Bigman. And not only that, this game could play into England's hands a little bit more if they get the opportunity to play in transition, which they haven't had yet so far this tournament. They've had to have a lot of time where they're actually on the ball trying to break down teams and perhaps letting Spain have the ball and trying to play on the break might suit Serena Beekman's side.

23:42And maybe that will change the realities for her a little bit. Just before we go, Anita, tell me what you thought about the reaction from the fans, the way they supported Jess Carter in that semifinal. I thought it was exceptional. It was lovely to see the fans singing and chanting her name, you know, clapping, applauding her when the players stood together on the bench. And when she came out for the warm up, you know, I know in London as well, Box Park, they were clapping on the 16th minute for Jess. I think to show that solidarity and support for her is super important that she feels that and knows that and that there are more people that want to serve good than bad and negative energy.