Chappers' Ryder Cup diary & will Red Bull save Prem Rugby from breakaway league?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. Today we welcome England's most capped men's player, Ben Youngs, to the studio. As the Women's Rugby World Cup comes to an end, a new Gallagher Prem season begins. Yep, a new name. We've gone from premiership to Prem, everybody. Rugby's going Gen Z. Now with the rebrand comes massive investment from Red Bull, who've literally given the men's domestic league wings, effectively saving it by keeping the Newcastle team alive, for which I am, of course, very thankful. You know, people say Red Bull has saved Newcastle. Actually, I think it's probably saved the league in a way.

0:33It couldn't afford to lose another team. And I think what it probably has done is open up the opportunity for other companies or other franchises to say, well, hang on a minute. I think it's brilliant. I think it's absolutely brilliant. It's exactly what the league needs. But is it enough to escape the looming threat of the new flashy Rebel League R360? We're going to look back on Ben's incredible career too, from managing dyslexia to watching clips in Fast Forward under Eddie Jones, and find out if he'd have been tempted to join a breakaway league. Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:12The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello. In a moment, we're going to be speaking to England's most capped men's rugby player, Ben Youngs. We loved having him in the studio. He talks about everything from his own personal challenges with dyslexia to what's going on in the world of rugby. It seems every season rugby is trying to reinvent itself in some way to attract new fans and younger fans. And it's a bit of a rugby themed end to the weekend because if anybody's doing it right at the moment in the world of rugby. It's women's rugby. This Women's World Cup has been phenomenal in terms of viewing figures, in terms of bums on seats and tickets sold.

1:51And I've worked all the way through it with Ruby Toohey, who until last week was a current world champion. New Zealand, of course, knocked out in the semifinals and she is a force of nature. So hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening so you don't miss that one. Ruby literally will talk about anything, including her challenges growing up in a house which was mired with domestic violence to playing the national sport and winning a domestic World Cup. And it's just me in the studio at the moment because Mark literally ran out. He said goodbye to Ben and went to the airport to catch a plane to New York for the Ryder Cup.

2:28So he sent us this voice note from Beth Page. Hey Gabby, hi everybody. So I am here at Bethpage Black and I've gone into that sort of golf whispering voice already as I'm stood on the practice range directly behind Rory McIlroy and Tommy Fleawood. You're up on this practice day wearing a sort of maroon and blue top at the moment. Ludwig of the Swede is in between the two of them. Rory's got his driver out at the moment and he's absolutely creaming them and the Americans are reacting positively at the moment to what they're seeing on the practice range. What I would say is that what you notice, what you notice when you come here, that cheer, by the way, is McElroy's just driven 382 yards onto the practice green, has raised his arms in the air and they've cheered behind him.

3:22But what you notice when you come here, everything is red. Colour of America at the Ryder Cup is red. So the hoardings are red, the welcome signs are red, the flags that are around TV towers are red as well, everything to try and support the Americans. And you come through the entrance here, the first thing you see is a big picture of the captain, Keegan Bradley, and then there are billboards of the 12 American players behind him. So you can really sense the buzz that's coming. The other amazing thing here is that this is a public golf course. so this isn't a sort of posh country club it is a they call it the people's country club here it's a little bit out of new york probably takes about an hour or so from manhattan to get here but it is just quite interesting i think that they've given it to a to a public course and the message that that sends to golf on either side of the atlantic um tyrell hatton's just arrived on the on the practice range now so the majority of the european team are here luke Donald, the captain, walking in amongst them, just watching Eduardo Molinari, one of the vice captains, Thomas Bjorn, another vice captain as well, all here, all monitoring their players.

4:31But everybody looks very, very relaxed as Rory creams another one. And I know you keep obsessing about whether I'm going to get involved in an altercation with an American, but so far, so good.

4:49A little bit jealous? Of course I am. because we were both teasing the sports agents all year that we'd like to both be there. But there is, of course, a small matter of the Women's Rugby World Cup final and a match of the day to present on Sunday. So it is nice work if you can get it, of course. And I'm sure Mark's having a lovely time out there. We can't wait to speak to him next week. We're going to be recording a Q &A episode next week as well. So if you have got a question for us, please send it to thesportsagentsatglobal.com on email. You can message us on social media or via the link in the episode description.

5:18So as the new season kicks off, Mark and I caught up with England's most capped men's rugby player, Ben Youngs, to talk about Red Bull's lifeline, Owen Farrell's legacy and a lot more than that. Ben Youngs, welcome to The Sports Agents. We were just chatting off air, actually, about documenting your life through pictures and how younger people will probably have easier access to memories. When you sit down to write the book of your life and career, how easy is it to remember those moments? Yeah, I think you certainly you have to go back a little bit and reflect for sure, especially with sport.

5:55It just comes so thick and fast that you kind of you think, OK, you know, your England debut, for instance. But then it's like, well, hang on a minute. What got me to that point in the first place? You know what? How did I break onto the scene at Leicester, for instance? And then, you know, what was the first time I turned up at camp? And then sort of trying to relive those memories was actually really quite hard to go through the archive. than maybe actually the first feeling of running out, for instance. That's an easy one to remember. Is there a middle bit of the book on glossy pages that's got loads of photos?

6:21That always helps. So it's the first bit I always turn to. Well, it is. People tend to, don't they? Have you got that? I have, yeah. I've got plenty of pictures, to be fair. That was key because being heavily dyslexic, that was always my cue. It was like, right, what's the photos? And if it's good photos, then maybe, maybe I'll read it. You're heavily interested. Yeah, yeah. Well, to be fair, it runs in the family, to be fair. And, you know, I think that the way that, you know, you can get help now and everything like that, it's... So how were team meetings for you then? How were really in-depth sort of tactical...

6:56Because in rugby, there's so much writing. There is a lot. Yeah. Well, and actually, you know, and, you know, I've seen Kenny obviously speak about it and I think terrific, you know, the way that he spoke about it. And I could relate to it in certain aspects. I think for me, presenting in front of the team, standing up and talking about, you know, tactics and what we're going to do. I've got no problems with that. I feel very, I enjoy that. Actually, I enjoy that. And I think it comes with being a half bat. But if you got me to write on the board, the tactics, actually write it, spell out, you know, this.

7:24No, no, no. I'm very, I'd be very uncomfortable with that. But get me to stand there and talk about it, show footage, describe what we're going to do. No issues. But it's strange. I actually think, and I talk about it in the book, is I actually think in many ways it allowed me to see things differently. because you do have to see things a little bit differently, which actually I think actually helped tactically. And I've got no evidence of that. I just think it has. I think you just see things a little bit differently. So when you see, let's say, an attacking opportunity of a scrum or a line-out, I actually think you pick up cues a little bit better or differently to other people.

7:55You see space or whatever. And like I said, I've got no evidence of that. But I guess in a rugby team, it's always a virtue of the sport. It's made to be a virtue that it's a sport that anybody can play because it's all different shapes and sizes. And I guess with any sporting team thinking about it, everybody's going to be a different kind of learner, aren't they? You know, some people visual, some people it's more kind of phonetic. Is that the right word? So, you know, so I guess, you know, in 15 or even 23 in a squad, you're going to have all different kinds of ways of learning plays. You are.

8:24We had lots of different like, you know, Eddie Jones, for instance, is a perfect example of a guy that would just chase that 1 % in any way. you know we went through stages where we'd watch uh almost clips and fast forward because he'd studied that actually there was a quicker way of for some people to almost absorb that information in fast forward for some reason don't know why but apparently that was and you know the meetings had to be a certain amount of time because again there's only so much you could have you know you'd only ever go away from a meeting with two clear points but when i think back to my early stage of my career i mean you know the coach would be going irate and you'd leave with about 15 different points you're thinking we've only got five days to fix it you know because we're planning on Saturday and it's Monday and you think oh you know what are we going to do so it's very sort of different in the way that's all sort of changed but you're right you know some people want to you have to run moves for instance you know when you're playing against a team there'll be certain moves that you have to run to try and unlock them or create opportunities and they change week to week now some people can see the clip or be talked and show visual of like this what we're going to do and for some people that isn't enough they actually have to walk through it you know get a repetition of it and until they do that they're all over the place but for some people you look at the board and you think that's simple I do that then I go around there and then third phase there and then we're into our normal shape but some people look at it and think oh my gosh I need to walk through this before I've even got a real grasp what's going on I am definitely going to go into meetings from now on going I'm one of the people who really helps if this is in fast forward so I don't know is that a thing I'll go well it worked for Eddie Jones so that's what are you do you feel like you're part of a generation who comes on a show like this or does your podcast or writes a book and Eddie Jones dominates the conversation because every player of your sort of generation who has played for England has had an experience has had an experience yes has had an experience no absolutely look Eddie divides opinion absolutely he divides opinion certainly publicly and even you know with the teams that I was a part of you know if you probably got half the squad together you know half would be I really enjoyed Eddie and half would go I really struggled with Eddie I sit on the fence with he's the best coach I had right he's the best coach I had you know tactically he was fantastic I think that we had huge success under those four years certainly five years actually under Eddie when you actually look at the success sure we didn't win a world cup we came back from the world cup we then won a six nations again which a lot of people forget so I enjoyed being coached by him I enjoyed being challenged by him it wasn't always easy was it uncomfortable yeah at times it really was but then maybe that's sometimes what elite sport is it's a little bit uncomfortable and you know when you're judged on performing and winning on a Saturday, and this is only my view, this is only my view, but I always responded well.

10:56I had Richard Cockrell, which probably put me in good stead at Leicester Tigers for a while, and he was pretty direct, to be fair. And Michael Checker as well, latter end of my career. Again, someone that was just straight to the point. And I always just responded better with coaches like that, I think from a nines point of view, from a half-backs point of view, when you take a field, the last thing I want is any grey area. I need to know, like, what is the actual tactics and what is my job to fulfil it? What do I need to do? and with Eddie it was always very very clear this is the expectation, this is what I need to do and you either delivered it or you didn't and if you didn't he'd let you know but at least you can do something about it it's the coaches that, let's say you don't deliver it and they step around it and it's all a bit grey, oh you didn't quite but you know don't worry well I do worry because I want to win.

11:34You know there's a carrot and stick and there's being direct, do you also occasionally need an arm around you and did that come from those kinds of coaches or from somewhere else? No, no it did and I think that the key with certainly that Eddie period it was you had guys like John Mitchell, you had Steve Balfour obviously involved, you had Scott Wiseman who was a real energetic enthusiastic Australian, John Mitchell who you're seeing what he's doing with Ed Rose, you know great real personal guy. So they kind of everyone balanced each other out so you had that within the room and Tom Tomlinson another guy, a great example, S &C coach there.

12:06So yes you had people that were able to, I think the key is when you get coaching staff together and it's the same with a playing group right and you have a leadership group and some of the great leaders that I was really fortunate to play alongside and play with, they were aware of their strengths but equally aware of their weaknesses. Now someone like an Ellis Gensherin is a real personal bloke, so is a Jamie George. So some leaders or some captains will go, Jamie, can you have a word with him because it's going to come better from you because you're just more personal, you know him better. And it's sort of recognising that and I think that's what good coaches do often.

12:41If they've got the right people around them, They kind of all balance each other out. I guess recognise their own limitations. If you can do that as a head coach and build a team that has all the parts that work, you know that you're in an environment that you can trust. Yeah. I look at it, you know, when I reflect on my entire career, you remember ultimately your coaches and your teammates for how they made you feel. Yeah. And they either had a real positive impact on how they made you feel or they didn't. And that's a bit like teachers, you know. You go back and you see certain teachers and you remember them for certain things and you remember others and everyone will have that experience.

13:15They've got some teachers that they absolutely love because they unlocked a little bit more out of them and probably gave them a bit of belief and you had other teachers that maybe suppressed that a bit and struggled with. None of that's right or wrong, it's just where you sit. So yeah, I've sort of seen both, I suppose. Do you feel that there's an emotional arc to your career as there may be for a lot of sportsmen and women that you start out as a youngster and get into the first team and feel untouchable, like nobody can do anything to you and then you reach the peak of your career when you're so confident in your own ability and your place in the game.

13:48And then as you come over that side, as you get older, when you should be calm, are you then maybe fret more about things? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think when you first start, definitely you have that, everything's new, everything's excited and you don't really understand the consequences. I mean, you're aware of it, but without really letting it daunt you. And then you get more experience and then of course you understand there is repercussions. You've seen maybe teammates drop out and not come back again or results and you're in a position there where it's you're no longer like the the person that's just burst on the scene you've got a bit more experience so therefore there's a bit more expectation that oh you shouldn't make that mistake and for that and i think when you get to the right at the end of your career i think the way i saw it and this is again this is how i saw it and i've seen it with maybe some other players as well i've played alongside that have been brilliant brilliant servants to england in particular you kind of get taken for granted a little bit because you've been there for so long you rep out eight out of ten performances week in week out which is ultimately what you need at test level in my opinion and that's what the great players do they just they just rep it out and never never fail always deliver but then you almost get taken for granted so then if you have a great game it's like well doesn't really matter because that's kind of what you're supposed to do but if you have a bad game my gosh it's ready for the next thing yeah and i just think that's maybe a little bit of an english mentality anyway but certainly i've seen it with some of my teammates in particular and I felt maybe back into my career as well maybe it was it was there's this sort of desperation to get the next one through it's like well actually I'm still doing my job I'm still giving a huge amount because you might see the 80 minutes but there is so much that goes on during that week to get that team ready for that 80 so yeah it's interesting and it's when you hit I think 30 seems to be a pivotal age in a sports person's life doesn't it you could be banging out nine out of tens every week but once you get to 30 that's when people start thinking well he's not going to last forever so where is that person coming and should they be blooded should they be given a chance you know as if there's a and there's no divine right obviously for that in terms of rugby you're also managing sheer you know physical weight of the training and the games and you know all of that takes its toll it does and i think the older you get obviously the more expectation or certainly internally there has a more an emphasis on your leadership and helping the team so therefore you have those extra responsibilities but yeah almost kind of give a justification for why you're still there.

16:01Yeah, a little bit. I've got this as well. Yeah, exactly, definitely. And I think the latter end of your career, you've got to use the enthusiasm that those youngsters bring and you've got to, like that, I always loved that. Like when a new kid came in or a new, you know, player came in and again, the excitement they had in their eyes, you know, the pure joy. Naivety. And all that, everything. And actually, but there's a part of you that you envy it because you think, you know, when you had that, it's great. That's everything you want it to be. And then you do, and I think once I stepped away from the England game and retired internationally and did my final two years at the club.

16:29I think I definitely sort of had that back. It's just I couldn't move like I once did. But you have that sort of, the game's the game. Enjoyment, exactly. The Sports Agents.

16:42The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. You know when you talk about the new kid who arrives in camp, and I'm thinking international level, throughout your whole career with england i reckon there had probably been debate about who the fly half would be and do you know the reason i say that is because i think for the whole of my life we follow the same pattern with with the fly half there's somebody who owns that shirt and never really puts a foot wrong but then there's a maverick somewhere who my god it goes a little bit back to your eight out of ten thing yeah how did you view the constant constant discussion about who should be England's fly half, which continues to this very day.

17:26Did you ever get input into it? No, I never had an input on it. Because it obviously affects you. And you must have had a preference with the kind of player you like to play with there. Look, I mean, I was genuinely really fortunate because I obviously had Owen Farrell, who is, for me, one of the greatest England players we've ever had, and should be absolutely celebrated. And he isn't always celebrating. Why not? Why is he not celebrating? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And it actually really annoys me. He can come across a little bit sometimes abrasive in the way he projects himself.

17:58And those who know him say that's not what he's like. But he can sometimes be quite reluctant, I think, to share anything more than he has to. And we've become so attuned to wanting sports stars to be these entertaining, affable human beings who give us a bit of comedy in their interviews. And I don't know, maybe there's a little bit of that. Yeah, I think there's definitely an element now where everyone wants total access to a player, you know, or a personality. They want to see it and showcase it, whether that's online or socials or post-game, pre-game, but not everyone wants to do that. You know, there's this real obsession, I think, in rugby.

18:33It's like we need, you know, global solo superstars. Henry Pollock? Yeah. And that's, you know, got the potential to be one, like Anton Dupont and Cia Calissian, what these guys have done. But not everyone wants to be that. Some people just want to be really good at what they do, and that's enough for them. And go home. and they want to go home and they want to be with their family and they probably want to have a glass of wine in front of the telly and decompress after playing in front of 80 ,000 people and that's okay. Do you know what, Ben? We see it in golf at the moment with, you know, we're recording this before the Ryder Cup gets underway with Scotty Scheffler.

19:05Scotty Scheffler is the world number one streets ahead of everybody else but Scotty Scheffler literally just wants to turn up, play golf and go home to his wife and kid and therefore there's huge debate about whether he is this... In fact, the greatest. In fact, you know, well, you know, he's putting up Tiger-esque figures, but he's no Tiger. Well, no, because he doesn't. I mean, I won't go into Tiger's puzzle. Scotty wants to just keep it simple. Yeah, and it is, isn't it? Because it's all about, of course, growth of the game and everything like that. But people are going to still play rugby regardless whether, you know, I'm out there doing TikToks and this and that and everything or I'm not.

19:43Like, it is what it is. And I just think, well, let's just celebrate them for being brilliant on the field, first because first and foremost that is what we are paid to do is that's the bread and butter and that guy performed countless times yeah i think i think also rugby seems to always be in a state of reinvention doesn't it it's trying to find its place in the in the modern sporting landscape and where can it fit and we talk about this a lot with other sports just trying to get a piece of the of the premier league action let's not even say football you know just premier yeah every sport you've got to have a show the matches you know it has to be more than the 80 minutes it's got to be the light show and everything else that goes on around it.

20:16And I guess R360 has kind of come along the idea, this is backed by Mike Tindall and others, that it's a league that is going to have a bit of that, a bit of razzmatazz, and it's going to potentially have a franchise model. It seems to have slightly run into a few issues with regard to where it actually fits in the calendar. And when you first heard about this, did you think, oh, that would have been something that I could have enjoyed? It's a bit like the Michael Johnson situation, you know, with the athletics, right? We've talked about Atlanta. Okay, well, there you go. So for those that, you know, he's obviously going to launch this thing.

20:48His Grand Slam track, GST. That's right, exactly. And, you know, on paper, it sounds great, right? You know, why do we have to wait four years for all these Olympians to get together? Why don't we have it regularly? And, you know, there's going to be an appetite for it and all that. And the more you think, yeah, there will be. But it turns out there wasn't an appetite for it. It turns out there wasn't actually the funding that they needed to get it going. And I look at this and think, actually, I look at rugby as a whole now. You've obviously had the Lions Tour. you've got the the women's world cup at the moment prem's about to start again then the autumn will roll around and of course have the internationals rugby championships going on at the moment that's been terrific you know everyone's won a game everyone's lost a game and i think actual rugby is really really good it probably just needs better alignment in terms of the global calendar now if someone comes in and changes the whole league and everything like that it's it's interesting because i feel like there's an obsession to try and get americans involved with rugby to try and but they've already got wonderful sports and if they wanted to get involved in rugby they probably would have done already and that's and okay you can dangle the carrot and everything like that but for me I think actually what we've got isn't a million miles off already there's some you know top 14 Europe and all these leagues it probably just needs a bit alignment globally and at the very least when a new league or a new franchise or a new opportunity comes along you'd like to think the people at the top it makes them sort of be a little bit more focused okay let's think about this maybe we need to do something before this happens.

22:11There are so many things there that we could do for about the next time. Yeah, there's loads to unpack. But the Americans thing is really interesting. You know, somebody who understands a lot more about business and finance in sports said to me once that the reason the Americans are buying into Premier or bought into Premier League clubs is they thought they were massively undervalued. They thought they were being valued at two times their turnover. American franchises are valued at five times their turnover. So that's why they were thinking they're kind of undervalued. I don't think they will look at rugby union clubs.

22:40Does Red Bull then look at rugby and think it was undervalued? Because obviously they've come into Newcastle Falcons, which is, I mean, I know when Kenny first read that story, he was so excited because it feels almost like you're validated. You know, it's like, yes, this is an exciting product. And somebody, a company that really gets sport and has taken on franchises very well and has taken on kind of the concept of global sport well has come into rugby union. Were you excited to see that? Gabby, absolutely. I mean, can you imagine how thorough they'd have had to look at the league, the structure?

23:10Is it worth? Is it viable? Can we make it work? Is it a waste time? Is it not? And all that. I think how thorough they'd have had to be to do that. And the fact that they then took it on and have done it, I think it's brilliant. I think it's absolutely brilliant. It's exactly what the league needs. You know, people say Red Bull have saved Newcastle. Actually, I think it's probably saved the league in a way. It couldn't afford to lose another team, you know, and I think it's terrific. They were on the edge. Exactly right. And I think what it probably has done is open up the opportunity for other companies or other franchises to say, well, hang on a minute.

23:38We need a rugby union team. I can't do that. As soon as one does it, the next one does it. And that will be interesting. So, look, I mean, the R360 one is an interesting one. Where it ends up, I'm not sure. I think for my players, if I was still playing, Gabby, if I was still playing, what do I want? I want the opportunity to play in front of big crowds, which I got the opportunity at club level. but I want to play with my teammates and friends and colleagues, which I do. The other thing as well, people sort of think, oh, it's a bit like the English law at the moment. To play for England, you have to play in England.

24:09You can't go abroad, otherwise you rule yourself out. And people think, well, if you got rid of that rule, everyone would go to France. I don't think so because guys have wives and kids. It's not for everyone just to pack up and leave. So again, you're going to have to entice people to go, to leave maybe their homegrown club and all that, and family and all that. So I don't think it's clear cut as maybe everyone will... But as you say, what I think is interesting is that it will make the people at the top of the game think about what the sport needs and look at its attractiveness. And also, I don't mean this in a disparaging way to Newcastle before you shout at me, Gabby, but Red Bull are very good at going into markets that you wouldn't necessarily think that aren't obvious.

24:46And Newcastle is not obvious. You know, going into Leipzig or going into Salzburg where they've got their football teams, it's a similar kind of move, you could argue, isn't it? But it's not a crowded marketplace, is it? No, no. So if they'd gone into the kind of one of the London clubs or where that's centre or down in the south west, you know, that would have seemed a bit obvious, wouldn't it? And the other thing it brings to mind, just talk about the league as a whole, before we ask you who's going to win it. And I know you're going to say sale. But when we did a cricket show, Gabby was away for a cricket show and we had David Lloyd and Barney Ronnaie on from The Guardian.

25:18And their point was, you go to so many different types of games, Test Cricket or T20 or the 100 or whatever, people are enjoying it. people at the top of sport should just calm down sometimes and realize that people are enjoying their products not constantly trying to change it which brings us on to the newly titled gallagher prem yeah yeah it does yeah yeah it does lead on to that but you're right yeah i think sometimes people think that they need constant change and tinkering you know you seem with the rules sometimes are constantly changing and you think just you know and also like apologizing sometimes for the game being physical.

25:51It's like, well, ultimately, some people go there for that aspect of a physical contest. And sometimes there's games that are 12-12, you know, with 70 minutes o 'clock, 10 minutes to go. And actually, sometimes they're the best because they're nail-bite, they're physical, and people enjoy that. Who's going to win at them? I think this year, when you look at it, I can't see past Bath, if I'm honest. I think having won it last year, the great rugby city town, you saw the scenes at the end of last year. I think that they haven't lost anyone they've lost Lee Blackett they have lost Lee Blackett they have lost Lee Blackett but in terms of players they've not lost anyone well done go you got me there you got me there well played yeah Lee Blackett's obviously been up gone to England now of course so they've obviously brought in players as well I just think that they're winning it the first time is harder than maybe winning it the second time because it's that that pressure that burden of having to win it for the first time in 20 odd years or however long it was and never mind that you win that it doesn't become such daunting in the next season.

26:48But they won to win Europe, won't they? Obviously, as well. And that's kind of what happened to Northampton last season. They got there again to a semi-final and just ran out of steam really in the league. Mark wants you to say Sale, who kick it off, actually, on Thursday night. Kick it off on Thursday night. Yeah. Well, I think the thing with Sale is it's one of the hardest places to go away from home. I don't know. It's like a proper fortress up there. We're menacing. Yeah, you are. And do you know what? Sale for me is with Al Sarnes and the way that he shapes things. I think, you know, They obviously got the final, didn't they, against Saracens a couple of years ago.