Did England push Six Nations panic button?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:05Alex Payne:It's crunch time for England in the Six Nations this weekend. If they go from Grand Slam hopes to losing to Italy, well, it doesn't bear thinking about. Steve Borthwick has gone bold with nine changes, very uncharacteristic for the man who worships consistency. So is this Borthwick officially pushing the panic button? And could a midweek visit from Thomas Tuchel have helped to push them over the line? And later, what's it like to set up a whole new football team from scratch and be ready to play in the top league straight away? We're going to be joined by manager Nick Cushing, who left the Citigroup to build Denver Summit.

0:38Alex Payne:Welcome to The Sports Agents.

0:48The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

0:53Alex Payne:Hello, just me today. And it's our two year podcast anniversary. Well, I've spent many an anniversary on my own. Luckily, I've got two great guests to keep me company. And before we get into everything, remember, you can catch up on previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts. Maybe Mark's away just buying me a nice anniversary gift. Anyway, make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review and do get in touch if you can on socials at the sports agents or email the sports agents at global.com. So is this weekend a turning point for England and Steve Borthwick in the Six Nations?

1:27Alex Payne:Presenter of the good, the bad and the rugby, Alex Payne joins us next. The sports agents. So could this be the weekend that England sees some kind of turning point for Steve Borthwick in the Six Nations? To answer that question and a whole load more, I'm delighted to welcome back to the sports agents, Alex Payne, of course the presenter of the good the bad and the rugby uh one of a trio but today we're delighted to have all of your wisdom on your own um you speak a lot of sense not saying your others you know your sidekicks don't but um it depends who you're up against i think as to how you value that sense but um obviously not the highest bar to be measured against but nice nice to be back on gary how are you i'm very well thank you steve balthwick has thrown it kind of all up in the air hasn't he he's he's just gone right i'm gonna make these changes everybody's telling me i should make some changes.

2:14Alex Payne:Did you expect him to be quite so radical in the lineup? Not in the slightest. I actually wondered if he might give his sort of frontline charges one more go at it. I mean, obviously, it went very wrong against Scotland. That went even worse against Ireland. Stick or twist, that's the big question. I was actually crunching some of the numbers just before I came on. And it's not just unusual for Steve Balthwick, who's very measured, loves cohesion in what it is that he builds but he has got 12 changes to his starting 15 of which nine are new faces six of which are in the backs that is very much roll the dice gamble let's see what a new set of players can do but when you look at the errors that they've been making and the you know the sort of clunky performances that they've put together to ask an entirely new team essentially to go out fix those problems find cohesion and get themselves going again I think is an enormous ask there is there's definite sort of method to the madness i sort of i wonder if a little bit of him realizes that with all the glory gone from this year's six nations let's have a little look at eye or put an eye on on 12 to 18 months in a rugby world cup and let's try the likes of what elliot daly you need a bit of you need a bit of experience in there but finn smith is going to be the england 10 i think for the future seb atkinson has got huge wraps on him um mike tindall obviously who we do the podcast with is a massive fan.

3:34Freeman has obviously staked his claim on playing 13. I think, you know, is he a winger? Is he a centre? We shall see. But, you know, there is Ben Spencer, another guy, obviously he's 33, 34, so he's not youthful. But I wonder if Steve is looking at options now rather than trying to get his front liners going again. We shall see come Saturday.

3:54Alex Payne:It's very against his previous displays of his character. I mean, let's, you know, the character that he's shown us, who knows? Maybe he's a much more kind of laissez-faire, throw-it-up-in-the-air character that we've just perhaps thought was much more cautious in the past. Maybe this is a real him. Anyway, he's not known to knee-jerk reactions, I think it's fair to say. And I think maybe a couple of years ago, maybe even five years ago, against Italy, you might expect an England head coach to make some changes. But this is a really crunch game for England in this tournament. Italy have been really good, as good as probably any of us has seen so far in a Six Nations campaign, even though they only crossed the line against Scotland.

4:32Alex Payne:So is this a risk, do you think, that could catastrophically backfire on his tenure as England head coach? I think if you know, and you are a fan rather than, Six Nations brings in flirts, and everyone who sort of loves sport will watch the Six Nations, I think genuine rugby fans will know that this Italian side has come an enormously long way in a relatively short space of time. Ironically, a lot of the progress has come about because of the structures that have been put in place by Conor O'Shea, former Ireland full-back, who now, of course, is in charge of the pathways at England. So Italian rugby is no longer the pushover that it once was.

5:07It was always sort of the poison chalice, the game against Italy, because if you win well, it's any Italy, of course you should. And if you don't win well, then you've obviously not performed. I don't think that's true anymore. But I think if England do not get the job done and done well in Rome on Saturday, I think the noise around Steve Borthwick is going to amplify. Not out of control necessarily, but it's going to be very, very hard to handle, particularly with a trip to Paris to come. And then obviously Johannesburg with the first game of the Nations series in the summer. So it doesn't get any easier.

5:39I don't think Steve Borthwick is not a panicker necessarily, but what he has done is oversee a very bad performance against Scotland. He has given those players the chance to go again. He spoke a lot in the aftermath of the defeat to Ireland about his players simply not matching up to the standards that he expects. And we actually did a show this weekend with Jamie George and Jack Van Portfleet on the podcast. There is so much noise and there's a lot of sack of them, start again. You know, all that kind of cacophony is building. The players operate far more between 40 and 60, so they know it was really, really poor.

6:12They're never as good as they say you are. They're never as bad as they say you are type mentality. But what did fall out of the conversation we had was that the levels of effort were nowhere near what international rugby is meant to be about. And that's data points rather than just optics. You know, when they're running around with GPS on their back, the numbers that they're throwing out were not what an England head coach was expecting. So I think on the basis of the lack of effort is why he has made the change.

6:38Alex Payne:And he was very forthright, wasn't he? And didn't hold back in the big debrief. What kind of little snippets have you got for us from there? There was a lot of whites of the eyes. There was a lot of, and we hear a lot about honest conversations behind closed doors. I think, you know, we sort of come to expect that. There were a couple of quite interesting anecdotes, which again, the eyes tell you far more than the words do. But I think training has been, and I think in their words, spicy. There were quite a few scars on faces and things like that. And so they have definitely gone at each other.

7:08And that's probably what you would expect. You know, it's grown up boys going out to play type thing. I think it's been pretty honest, pretty full-throwed. without necessarily screaming and shouting and panic and blame, but a genuine understanding and recognition that what they have put together in the last two performances simply isn't good enough, particularly for a team that had been on this really impressive run and was building. We've had dark times in English rugby in the last 20 years where the Six Nations has fallen apart and they've all sort of changed selection. But let's not forget, this was an England team that was coming into the Six Nations with expectations of a Grand Slam decider in Paris in the final round and talk of winning the championship.

7:49We are now fifth and we are going to Italy slightly concerned as to whether this might be the first ever loss to an Italian outfit. It has come apart and come apart very, very quickly. Does that mean the whole thing is sliding off the plate and going in the bin? Or does that mean it can also come back round and they can get themselves back on horse very quickly? It is a fascinating game.

8:10Alex Payne:So this Italian team, as well as having a world-class centre pairing in Menagello and Brex. They've got up front, they've bossed their very best. I mean, some of those scenes against Ireland were quite incredible, weren't they? And so there are areas that you go, well, actually, they're stronger than England there. They're stronger than England there. This should be, if they play to their very best, this should be a really good contest. And if they do get over the line and record that historic win, would England make a change midway or close to being midway through a World Cup cycle? Something that is very rarely done in rugby.

8:43Alex Payne:It's so unusual, compared to, say, football. It just rarely happens, does it, that a head coach is taken out to be a little bit Corleone-y about it all. And it's a really interesting question, particularly at the point where the All Blacks, who never changed their coach mid-cycle, have just announced Dave Rennie. And that was player power, by all accounts, wasn't it? By all accounts, was player power, yeah. And Scott Robertson, who was the incumbent head coach, I don't think saw it coming. I don't think he knew that there was a problem behind the scenes. He's got so much pedigree and success in super rugby, but couldn't translate that into the international arena, which is a furnace.

9:19And, you know, you will know that better than I will. Will England make a change if England lose to Italy? Not immediately. I think if things go wrong over the summer with the Nations series, you're then into, have we got enough time to change? And does a new man who comes in have the time to... It's only, of course, worth remembering. Eddie Jones left 12 months before the Rugby World Cup in 2023. and Steve Borthwick took the hospital pass, almost removed ambition, got England playing very sort of simple rugby again. And they were a couple of points away from making a World Cup final. Will they do that again?

9:53I would be surprised. That doesn't mean no. Going back to your point though, this is absolutely not a gimme for England. And the one thing that has gone well for them in the course of this Six Nations so far is the scrum. They're coming up against an Italian outfit. I mean, Tide Furlong, one of the greats of Irish rugby, very I mean it's almost an outer space playing against Simone the wonderfully named Simone Ferrari who is anything but in terms of stature man of the match against Scotland unbelievable performance man of the match against Scotland you know it's not just the front row it's the back row who are absolute terriers they've got a great kicking game now with Garbisi they've got flower out wide Lewis Lion Luigi Lioner and the aptly named is tearing up trees so yeah I mean this is a proper banana skin I think what happens if England lose to Italy is the external noise is going to be very, very difficult to contain.

10:44Alex Payne:If there's one thing we know about international rugby, we know that the top teams tend to have a consistent centre pairing. They tend to have a very consistent 10. And last summer, we had the kind of re-emergence of George Ford taking his opportunity on tour while the heirs apparent were out in the Lions tour in Australia. And then starting the Six Nations, looking really, you know, coming out of the league, looking confident from his summer. And then suddenly, obviously, a couple of games, things don't go well. Finn Smith is back in. Is that George Ford's kind of resurgence gone now? Has he got another life?

11:19Alex Payne:Has this cat got another life to come back, do you think, into England's fold? Absolutely. I think it would be very premature to write him off. And I say that almost because he's almost like a player coach. I think he is so instrumental in helping the running of the team, even if he's not playing, that I think he will be part of the England set-up. for the next 18 months or so. If you actually go back a little bit further, I'm not sure how many of your listeners will remember November 2024, England had a really tough time of it in their autumn internationals, but Marcus Smith at 10. They couldn't get over the line, could they?

11:51Alex Payne:They just kept faltering. But the one shining light was Marcus Smith at 10. Fast forward to the following six nations, and it was Finn Smith who came through, who then goes on a line until George Ford comes back in, who holds the shirt in November, and now we're back to Finn Smith again. It is a great luxury to have three 10s, any one of which can take control. But I sort of wonder also if it's beginning to become a bit of a challenge. I'm not sure Marcus is necessarily loving the role that he's got now, which is on the bench as a backup 10, but also coming on at 15 all the time. So, you know, you look at the All Blacks, they've normally only got two 10s and they swap between them.

12:25France have obviously got Jalbert who's come through, but Ntemat to come back. It feels a little bit, and obviously this is obviously always dictated by results, but it feels a little bit muddled at the moment. who is the absolute standard bearer of this team. You know, good luck over to Finn Smith right now. I wouldn't be drawing a line through George Ford in any way, shape or form. It's worth remembering almost the best performance of that 12 game winning run, judge it again as you will against Wales. But George Ford came off the bench to really sort of take England from 30 to 70 or whatever it was.

12:57You know, he has played the role of understudy. I don't think he is egotistical in any way, shape or form. I think the value he brings from a rugby intellect point of view is still hugely valuable for an 18-month run into a World Cup.

13:09Alex Payne:And having had David Flatman on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, his neighbour, Big Ron, will be happy because apparently, yeah, he was joking, Flats, about how kind of people's knee-jerk reactions. Man in the street coming up and telling you what they want. Listen, everybody has their opinions. They're quite entitled, I guess, to who their favourites are. But it does seem, with Finn Smith, playing so brilliantly with the team that, you know, are flying high, top of the league, all of that with Northampton, it just came out last year that England had found their answer at 10, didn't it? And it was quite a shock for everyone that I guess he lost that berth.

13:41Bet you Finn Smith, though, would be very open in how much George Ford has helped him with his game.

13:46Alex Payne:I'm sure, yeah. Interesting, we had a conversation with Conor O'Shea on the pod this week and he produced a really interesting line, which is when he made his Ireland debut, everyone said, well done. And I don't know if you remember, oh, you would do the great Phil Matthews, who obviously worked with you on the beat for years. Took Conor aside, he said, look, congratulations on your debut. I will really congratulate you when you're dropped and you make it back again because that is the sign of resilience that you're going to need at this level. And Finn Smith definitely won't tell you that he's enjoyed the last six months because he wants to be England's 10, but I bet you he'll benefit from it.

14:18And I'm fascinated to see how he goes on Saturday.

14:23Alex Payne:It's interesting. Steve Borswick has had Thomas Tuchel in to watch training and do a debrief. He's had Matt Weston in. And I know they like to have unusual or slightly kind of random sports people from different sports coming in and chatting to the guys. It's more just to break things up, isn't it? And just give them a little bit of kind of, you know, a different thought process. But he's also... They had Emma Raducanu in November as well. I can tell you she was the most popular guest, I think, that they've had in... I am sure, I know. Because I've had Henry Pollock on the phone trying to raid my address book, trying to get various people.

14:55Alex Payne:Yeah, we almost... Keep that under lock and key. Yeah, I won't mention the names he was asking for. But yeah, I did think he'd kind of over his expectations of my address book were a little bit high. But it's interesting because it's about the expectation of England teams in particular that he's talked to the likes of Gareth Southgate about. And that kind of a nation that expects almost in a slightly entitled way, say, you know, compared to, say, what fans of Wales and Scotland expect. I mean, fans of Wales have got no expectations at the moment. But they're just, you know, but what they expect from their teams and how you deal with that, because actually what could be perceived as successful in one nation for England is not enough.

15:33Alex Payne:You know, only getting over that World Cup line again, you know, and nobody thought after 2003 it would take England so long to do it again. Only that is going to be success. I think you're absolutely right. And in many ways, I think that's part of the reason that fans are really vociferous at the moment is you talk about Wales. You know, they are a rugby-loving nation, but the resources are very, very small relative to what England have. But the success that they've delivered, particularly under Warren Gatlin and Sean Edwards, has been fabulous, fantastic. You know, they've had many, many high points in the Six Nations, less than the World Cup.

16:08But for an England fan, you've had one Grand Slam to celebrate in 23 years. And that feels a very, very paltry return for the noise, the player base, the money that the RFU generates. And I do wonder if that's why England fans are feeling hugely frustrated with what has happened in this year's Six Nations. It's the same with the football, you know, one World Cup and that's your lot. It's hard to sort of pin that on this current crop of players, but it perhaps explains why back pages scream and shout as much as they do, and social media gets to the point that it does. I'm not sure how much Thomas Tuchel can really change the, you know, the mindset or the expectations of this current crop of players.

16:47Alex Payne:He hasn't done anything yet either as an England head coach, has he? Well, he hasn't either. I mean, they're probably leaning in on each other and sort of grumbling about everything that happens outside of their camps, respectively. He does see both it like, doesn't he, to try and take intelligence from other sports and other coaches. And we went down to Kingsclere, and I know he spent some time with Andrew Boulding down there because he was worried that he was becoming almost too data-driven. And he was fascinated with how Andrew looks at horses just with his naked eye and decides what needs to be done.

17:16Yeah, I think Matt Weston will bring, you know, a big, he was obviously, I think it was the Saracens Academy, actually, Matt Weston. So he brings the sort of a knowledge of the sport and understanding of what the players are about type thing. I think sometimes it's just about releasing that pressure valve and interesting, entertaining the guys. It's a long time in camp. It's a long way away from friends and family. Actually, just the chance to bounce off people who might have a slightly different perspective or almost just a word of reassurance where it gets going is useful.

17:43Alex Payne:Yeah, just finally, this year's Six Nations will become a pub quiz question, I think, because it'll be, what was unique about the 2026 Champions Trophy lift in the Six Nations? And it will be that it is not the Six Nations Trophy. No, I think they've got a sort of replica, which, I don't know, probably does the tours of the schools and things like that. We should just say why, because obviously not everybody knows. Well, because it's gone up, am I right to say it's gone up in a fire? It's someone's van. Yeah, it was in a car. It was in a vehicle. It was being transported and caught fire. It's melted.

18:15Alex Payne:Yeah, it doesn't look great. So it's going to take a long time to make a new one. And so the replica is the one that will be lifted, apparently. I can't work out if that's the most 2026 thing I've heard, which is trophy melts in van fire, or just the most rugby thing I've heard in 2026, which is, you know, your prize asset has gone up in smoke type thing. I know obviously the Six Nations has had a few problems with trophies in the past. I think it was before your Kenny's time, but obviously the Calcutta Cup was used as a football by John Geoffrey and Dean Richards down Princess Street. And I think what was once a very good drinking vessel became more of a sieve off the back of it.

18:51Alex Payne:Well, actually, the FA Cup can beat that. Chelsea in 2012 made sure that it needed 80 hours of work after they won it. That's a remarkable piece of celebrating going on like that. The 2011 Cup of Del Rey trophy was crushed by a Real Madrid bus in a victory parade. So, you know, it's not alone, the Six Nations trophy, in a kind of hall of fame. Do you know what would be very funny is if they actually did just present it in its current form, which would be a slightly melted block of cheese and say, help yourself, fellas, celebrate what you like. It'll be a very good pub. It's funny, I think the wonderful thing about the Six Nations, though, is actually the thing that matters most is not the trophy, it is the Grand Slam.

19:32And that's not something you can lift. That is a badge that you wear and you carry. I think if you ask any sort of genuine rugby fan, you can name Grand Slam years, but the years where someone's been beaten and they just have a trophy, it doesn't mean as much, I think, as a rugby purist. True.

19:47Alex Payne:Thank you so much. Loved our chat. And just for everybody else to know, we're going to be talking about Wales' situation. We keep touching on it on our Six Nations coverage with our Welsh pundits, Sam Wolverton and Alan Wynne as well. But nobody really at the moment has any answers because we're not hearing anything coming out of Cardiff conclusively. But we are going to talk about this on the show. So if you're a Wales rugby fan, please send in your questions, your stories, your ideas, your suggestions of how Welsh rugby can move this thing forwards. Thanks, Alex. So what is it like to coach a club that was literally formed 13 months ago?