Did Thomas Tuchel cost England a World Cup Final?

0:00England have got great individuals playing for some incredible football clubs. They have somebody on the sideline who was being paid to take them to the promised land. Why did they freeze?

0:09Julien Laurens:So the time of the dream breaks, where Tuchel could have changed everything. He could have made his substitutions then. You're so lucky. You have a timeout in this condition when you're England and Tuchel and you do nothing with it. This is a loser's generation, right? I thought Kane said something. There's a piece missing. Is it technically? Is it tactically? Is it the personnel? Psychologically? What is it? We couldn't bring it over the line in the moment, no regrets. That to me sounds like delusion and the sad thing is that's coming from the head coach of the England men's national team who was brought in to be different than the history that's been there before.

0:42Julien Laurens:I would sack him. If I was the English surfer right now, and you know, I would sack him.

0:50This is a global production.

0:58Hello and welcome to the Sports Agents. I'm Nader Manoha, no Gabby, no Mark today. They're both flying in for the final. First class, no doubt. So in this episode of Sports Agents, I'm joined by author and football writer, Julian Laurent, to break down a dramatic couple of days at the World Cup. So Jules, France and England both fail in the biggest moment. So this is going to be an easy podcast, isn't it?

1:21Julien Laurens:Is this the Losers podcast? Can we rename this podcast in another way? It's tough, Jules, it's tough. And, you know, I want to frame this conversation a little bit around the idea of, like, mentality. Because in the round before, you had Thomas Tuchel getting some criticism for the critique about the performance, but he finishes off by saying this is pure mentality, this is pure mentality. So why did they fail then? Why did they fail if they had that pure mentality? And I want to begin today by going to the start of the game. It's about to kick off. It's England versus Argentina in a World Cup semi-final, like an incredible game.

1:56And I believed England were going to win. How about you?

1:59Julien Laurens:Yeah, I was convinced. I mean, we were together on a TV show the morning of the game and I said, like, I don't see any scenario where Argentina can beat this England team unless England and Tujol really mess things up. But if they don't, then I think they're going to win this. I think they've got too much for Argentina who've been a bit underwhelming. Even the mentality, I thought, surely, if you don't have the right mentality and mindset for a game like this, with everything at stake, with everything that historically this encounter means for your country, then you will never get the right mentality.

2:34Julien Laurens:And I was really wrong after that. Hey, listen, let's not tell the full story just yet. Because you say you really fancied England, but was that more so credit to England or were you taking something away from Argentina? No, I just thought I was a bit underwhelmed by Argentina, bar Leo Messi up to that point in the tournament. I thought he was carrying this team on his own and when he was not at his best, like against Switzerland, for example, they struggled until something crazy in the game happened and then Switzerland went down to 10 and then Argentina somehow, even with difficulties, managed to win that game.

3:09Julien Laurens:And then we can look at the Egypt game and even other games. And I just think like, you know, This is an England team that has Bellingham on top form, Kane being Kane, that has a coach supposedly to get them over the line because he's so good tactically and he's cold and he's clinical and he's this and he's that. And I thought they wanted Mexico away at the Azteca and the mentality was there, the character they showed. This is great. And I really thought this is England. It cannot be not an England win today. you've been drinking every single bit of that Kool-Aid but do you know what, so was I because I believed all these same things I think we were looking at this Argentina side and they looked a little bit old, looked a little bit leggy, haven't been that impressive and you could maybe make the case for England having not been that impressive as well but from a talent standpoint overall, I was a real believer and then the game starts and I loved it, the physicality of it all, the aggression that the Argentinians were putting forward into the game and England weren't really they weren't really falling for the tricks.

4:11I think there were times where maybe in years gone by some of the players would have reacted and so on but it looked like they were ready and I really enjoyed that first half even though there weren't any goals in it. I really, really enjoyed it. How about you?

4:24Julien Laurens:Yeah, I agree. I mean, you said there was no goals. There was hardly any shots anywhere, you know, in the first 14 minutes or so. But the thing, the only thing I would say about that, I loved it too and I think this is a World Cup semi-final. don't expect the most beautiful games, especially between two teams like that with all the background to it. But Argentina wanted it to be a street fight and they made it a street fight. And I think England were happy, maybe at the start, to go along with the street fight. It's okay, let's be organized. If they want to fight, we can also fight. Sure. And then I think the goal kind of weirdly changes everything.

5:03Julien Laurens:And that's where I really stopped to understand what was going on on the pitch. Yeah, for me, this is the most important part of the game now, because I think when I look at this match, I'm thinking about how do you try and find a lead in the game? And when you do have a lead, how do you play with that lead? Or say from an Argentinian perspective, how do you sort of try and chase a game? Because we've seen them in recent games, be able to come back in games brilliantly. And obviously different circumstances around each one, whether it's the Egypt game or whether it's the Switzerland game and so on, they're playing in a different sort of way.

5:34but from an England perspective firstly what did you make of the goal? Did you like in fact let me double down on that after England scored I believe they were going to win win the game and make it to the World Cup final based on how the game was going that's what I believed I thought England were just as competitive as Argentina they scored that goal and I lost all my belief in Argentina I had all my belief in England was it the same for you?

5:57Julien Laurens:Yeah absolutely I thought okay this is it now you've got them exactly where you wanted to have them at this point it's the 55th minute I think or 57th I can't remember exactly when Gordon scores you know this is it the stadium gets quiet because the Argentina fans are great fans but they also go along with what you see on the game right and even if I thought the start of that second half there was maybe a bit more urgency from Argentina and what they were trying to do with the ball that goal that you know comes really on a very simple okay it's a poor ball from Kane you know it's not a great pass because Argentina win the ball back but then Rice is there to win the second ball to give the ball back to Rodgers and then it's a really good cross and Molina falls asleep Gordon I think he's really smart and goes for it and gambles in a way and then gets in front of Molina and scores good great and after that you think okay that median block that you had for the street fight just keep it just keep doing exactly the same that you did in the first lap you don't need to change anything as players as a coach or head coach as a coaching staff, just nothing.

7:00Julien Laurens:Just go along now and do the same. And you know that Argentina are going to come out more now because they need to score. So make your substitutions in the sense that keep the median block, but use a bit more pace. So bring Rashford on, bring Saka on, maybe bring Watkins on even. If you want to drop Bellingham a bit deeper because you think Rice might not be just fit enough to last the whole 90 minutes at that kind of intensity, sure, do that. But just bring players with pace because now you know that Argentina are going to go for it even more and there will be a lot of space to explore for England.

7:33This is what I think is really interesting now because from my perspective as a former player, I'll hold my hands up and say it's very easy to look at a game and say this is what should have happened. It's very, very easy to do that and to not be on the touchline to say, well, this is what it is. But we're talking about elite level football with the coaches, with the players. And Tuchel said something after the game about how the team was struggling from, I think from before the goal was scored and they were losing possession and Argentina were in the ascendancy and so on and so forth. And what I don't like about that is that it gives this sense of almost as if he was helpless to be able to do anything, to help his side out.

8:13Because the ideas that you've given have been ideas that many people have given. Because why is it that they take a step back? And from my perspective, again, as a former player, holding onto, when you have a lead in a tense situation because there's an emotional part to this. It's very easy to take a step back. Yeah. But in those moments, you want the people who are the most experienced, the most influential to make sure that you take a step forward as well. And as I look at that, I look at England senior players like Kane. I look at Tuchel on the sideline and I wonder why it was allowed to happen.

8:46If I was to talk, for example, about, say, Tuchel. England, I thought, were really good the first half, relatively speaking. The battle was there. The start of the second half, the battle was there and they have a lead. England against Mexico scored their first goal and then from the kickoff they scored their second goal because they sprung the counter press straight away. Elianison won the ball, England scored 2-0. This is the best time to continue to be aggressive, but they weren't that. And I wonder to myself sometimes, England have got great individuals playing for some incredible football clubs.

9:19They have somebody on the sideline who was being paid to take them to the promised land. why did they freeze why did they freeze Jules can you tell me I don't know

9:29Julien Laurens:and you know what for me the most damning of all of this because Tuchel can defend himself and we all expected him to do so and like I've got no regrets you know this is the best game that we had in tournament all that BS because I think it's absolute BS because now you've got that dream breaks so if in previous times you're on the I'm sure some managers listening to us whatever you coach whatever level you're coaching at, where you feel that you can shout and shout, especially in a big stadium like that, at this stage of the World Cup, and players don't really, either they don't listen, they don't register what you said, they don't process it, I can understand that.

10:06Julien Laurens:Not with the drink breaks anymore. At the drink breaks time, it's not a one-nil up. Tuchel has three minutes, probably even four minutes at the time to say, hey, what is going on? Why are you so deep? Why are we all so deep? Between the 66-minute nerds, so the time of the drink breaks, where Tuchel could have changed everything. He could have made his substitutions then because we've all seen what happened between the 55th and the 66th or 67th, so the drink breaks. There were those 10, 11, 12 minutes where England already were inviting the pressure from Argentina and Argentina already were there in this kind of handball situation where you are like this semicircle around the box and they were just there and England could not get out.

10:49Julien Laurens:Tuchel saw it like us. and then he's got those four minutes where all the players are around him. This is it. It's like a team talk, a half-time, team talk before a game. It's just, this is just brilliant. It's a timeout. You're so lucky you have a timeout in this condition when you're England and Tuchel and you do nothing with it. Between the 66th minute and 86th minute, they completed two passes, Nathan. Two passes. Their ball possession is 12%. That is one-two. 12 % they had the ball between their goal and the 90th minute I think between 66 and the end of the game they had 7.5 % of the ball this is not even possible this is unprecedented never seen before ever yeah you know to go back to the way we started the show we said this is pure mentality but this is a manager or a coach in my opinion that is retreating this is a coach because you made a brilliant point about the drinks break and just before the drinks break happened I think Argentina had a chance and there was a shot of Jordan Pickford looking at the referee and saying drinks, drinks, drinks, drinks so he's pleading for the break because he knows something needs to change Yeah, because you just made that save, remember?

12:03Julien Laurens:It's not on the header from I think Alvarez maybe But then the signalling that you give to the players not just of England but of Argentina by making it more defensive it's the 70th or 71st minute and now England are essentially playing in a back five. What does that say to your players after you've seen them for the last 10, 15 minutes have no real say in the game beyond defending? You decide to go and do that. The manager was so critical of England's performance, relatively speaking, and the win against Norway. And now here's a bigger occasion again. And obviously it's easy for us to say, this is probably the second or third biggest game you can play as a professional.

12:43Outside of your own confederation championships, it's the semi-final of a world cup it's enormous but this is again when it's I don't really condone people who look to the sideline for answers but a manager should demand more you mentioned the possession stat maybe it's hard to keep possession when every player is inside your 18 yard box maybe it's hard to keep possession when your number nine is deeper than your number six deeper than your number five deeper than your number four and I would have loved from my perspective if Tuchel for example is to be the strong manager that we say that he is and people think that he is, maybe take off a hurricane, bring on an Oli Watkins, somebody that's going to be able to stretch the game more.

13:21When Anthony Gordon comes off, maybe replace him with like a Rashford, you know, a Saka, a Madueke. But instead, all these signals that he was giving to this England side, I think in some ways, and this is where I have to sort of change a bit, I think it gave signals to the Argentina side as well. And I think in some ways I have to I feel I have to praise their mentality their coach Scaloni before the game after the last game rather was talking about suffering is in their DNA and they're saying this with arguably the best player that's ever played the game in this side in this side as well and I think they capitalised so I was thinking about how to how to lead a game but Argentina I think they showed us how to chase a game would you agree?

14:03Julien Laurens:Yeah yeah definitely and I think we've said many times this team is built for Messi and around Messi and this is great. He's the greatest player of all time. Even at 39, some of the stuff that he did on the pitch. And I don't think he was really that great yesterday. You know, they've given him the assist on the first goal, the Enzo goal, when it's just like a sideways pass. The cross on his weaker foot for Lautaro is inch perfect. But, you know, it was not vintage Messi at all through the whole game. And yet, there's a moment of brilliance where he can dribble, he can still dribble past three players or keep the ball while three players are around him.

14:38Julien Laurens:or still find a pass that would just unbalance the team and things like that. But the other 10, or even when Otamendi comes on, or Montiel comes on, or Deporre comes on, they're just mentality monsters. And yet, they're very good. Technically, I think most of them, the quality, there's a moment where Romero is under pressure, I think by Jude and Gordon, in his own box, and just gets out with a pass to Molina, where he does like, inside of the two feet, I don't know if you remember that, and you think like, okay, right. but they also they're there for the fight they're there to never give up they're there to always keep going until the end and yes sometimes they are probably over physical sometimes they are very aggressive it might not be everybody's cup of tea and I completely understand that and I think in the last four years some of their own making because some of the racist chances that they had against the French players for example and things like that were really really poor from them But there was, I think, a lot of agendas against Argentines and against the image that they can maybe show.

15:42Julien Laurens:Dibu Martinez, remember, after the World Cup final in Qatar. Things like that that they've done. But you have to admire that mentality that they have, the character that they showed. Even if you don't really like their attitude or things like that, it doesn't matter. But I think when you give them on a plate, because I think, for me, Argentina were there for the taking yesterday, especially after the first goal, like you said. I probably would have tried to avoid the street fight of the first half if I had been to Holland, England and go for the jugglers straight away and say like, you know what, let's go and press.

16:11Julien Laurens:Let's try and then see what happens. But if you put it on the plate for them, hey, come and attack us. They're very good at that because technically they're so precise. Enzo, and I'm not the biggest Enzo fan, really. And again, we see him struggling in the Premier League at times with Chelsea because a game of duels, that's not him. I think yesterday he won 30 % of his jewels in a game like that. However, he touched the ball 104 times and his passing accuracy is 98 % net. And amongst all those touches and all those passes, I think there's 15 in the final third of England. And I know at the end it's easy because everybody is in the final third.

16:50Julien Laurens:But still, the quality on the ball of some of those players, like McAllister too, is outstanding. And if you give them that freedom, at some point they're going to make you pay. And they made England pay. And we said together, we were texting yesterday during the game, England got what they deserved. I'm sorry, it's sad, but they got everything they deserved. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think to talk about Argentina as well, because you've made some great points and there's a lot more to it that sort of say why lots of people do not like Argentina. But one thing about them is they know exactly who they are and they know exactly how they're going to play.

17:23And I think there was some real contrasting images as the game was developing, which I thought are important to mention. because from an Argentinian standpoint, when they scored to make it 1-1, they didn't change the way that they played. When they scored to make it 2-1, they were still pressing New England players high up the field. Whereas from an England perspective, I remember just towards the end of the game, they'd been under pressure for what had been like five, 10 minutes. And Jude Bellingham had the ball on the left wing and he was running forward with three Argentinians chasing him. And there was almost like this sense, because imagery for me is that England are hoping that Jude Bellingham can do something.

17:58whereas Argentina they're all doing this together yes with Messi in there we've mentioned the influence of like say Enzo Fernandes you could talk about McAllister and his runs into the box Lataro Martinez coming off the bench to do what he does you know even at the back like some of these substitutions that they made Argentina on paper and from a general football standpoint they shouldn't matter but Otamendi comes on for Lissandro Martinez and Rodrigo de Paul comes on as well and Rodrigo de Paul is now sending in some great balls into the box. And I just have to, as I say, just look at it and just wonder, is it as simple as saying for Argentina, because they've won it before and because they're here, they're the only team in this tournament that's here to not win it, but to retain it.

18:43Do they just know how to win and England don't? Yeah.

18:46Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think this is another part of what happened yesterday between a team that had been there in difficult... I mean, Qatar was fairly, I think, straightforward for them in a way up to the final and the last 25 minutes of the game, an extra time when the French came back, etc. But you won it in pain. You know, you didn't win your final 3-0 and nobody could touch you through the whole tournament. You won Copa America before after not winning much and you won it because you were strong mentally in the penalty shootout against Colombia and Ibu Martinez and Brazil. all that kind of stuff in a final.

19:29Julien Laurens:You don't forget that, you know, Messi, for example, in 2014, lost that World Cup final and that was bad. It was bad for them. It was bad the way they did, the way they lost, the way they played. Higuain and Messi and everything. And in this generation, apart from Messi, there's obviously nobody else, I think. Even Otamendi, I don't think, was there in 2014. But those stories, like, live on, in a way, of winning and of losing. and I think you build also that mentality that England don't have and we both live in England I love England my kids were born in London everything you want but you are not you and not all English people but this is a losing this is a loser's generation right it's losers in the semi-final of this World Cup it's a loser in the last Euros final they're losers in the quarter-final against France in the last World Cup where they were the better team that the losers are home in the final against Italy at Euros 2021 that they should have won that the losers after being 1-0 up against Croatia in the semifinal of 2018 again they should have won and I think at some point that sticks to you I really believe and somebody will change you at some point England will win they have to and probably in two years time the Euros is in England the final is in Wembley again both semifinals are at Wembley too I think eventually England will win a big tournament it's inevitable I think but for now I think this sticks to you and maybe psychologically this is the problem I thought Kane said something he also said you know we played a great game but he also said there's a piece missing somewhere and he felt that even Kane himself didn't really know what that piece was is it technically is it tactically is it the personnel is it mentally psychologically is there an issue here do you need to talk to people do you need maybe like a psychologist to be with these squads during big tournaments what is it because there's clearly, and he's right, I think there's not much, but I think there's that one piece and it could be a big piece, a medium-sized piece, a small piece, a tiny piece, I don't know.

21:31Julien Laurens:I don't do jigsaws. But I think he's right. There is something missing and we saw that yesterday again, but not just yesterday. In 2024, in 2022, in 2021, in 2018 as well. And that starts to be quite a lot of that kind of baggage with England. Yeah, for sure. and that for me is the idea of how to win. You know, you hope that from an English perspective they will find it because we've got the players that know how to win domestically or maybe some of the stuff comes elsewhere. So what's the problem then? Do you think it's too much pressure? Listen, I don't think so. I don't think it's too much pressure.

22:05I'm going to read this out, yeah. So after the game, somebody says, no regrets, we played one of our better matches, maybe our best match in the circumstances. That to me sounds like delusion and the sad thing is that's coming from the head coach of the men's national team who was brought in to be different than the history that's been there before?

22:23Julien Laurens:I would sack him. If I was the English FA right now, and you know, I would sack him. I'm sorry, this is not good enough. And he said, no, no, no, I'm going to continue. I'll be there in two years' time for the Euros on home soil, which is going to be incredible and we're all looking forward to it. This is going to be great to have the Euros in the UK, but I would not. If I was the FA, I would say, this is not what we employed you for, what we paid you so much money for, because from him, that was so disappointing. So just a quick reminder, make sure you catch up on our previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts.

23:02Make sure you subscribe or follow, and be sure, please be sure, to leave us a review on there. And after the break, a triumphant Guillem Balaguer then. He joins us to explain how Spain neutralised Mbappe and co. in their semi-final against France. But first of all, our very own Gabby Logan checks in from New York