Do England have enough "dog" to rescue The Ashes?

12:30Mark Pougatch:You just can't. What can you do with the Carabao Cup? What can you do with the FA Cup? And then the start of Europe, three quarters of the way through January again, the European matches. Well, exactly. Would stop anything later, wouldn't it?

12:42Gabby Logan:I mean, just looking at my diary. So Premier League, the opening weekend in January, that's a Premier League one. Then the next weekend is FA Cup. Then it's first leg of the Carabao Cup semi-finals. then it is Premier League at the weekend then we're back to Champions League as you were saying so and you're going to be going to Bodo Glimt then so that's

13:09Mark Pougatch:No it didn't work they did listen the clip got passed around

13:12Gabby Logan:I know they messaged me and went your producers messaged me and went can you stop siding with Gabby on going to Bodo Glimt

13:20Mark Pougatch:City ruined it for us didn't they by beating Real Madrid so yeah back to Milan I mean, not complaining, lovely city, but I think it'll be a procession for Arsenal's second team by then, won't it? Catch up with all our past episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can always get in touch, thesportsagentsatglobal.com on email, or you can message us on social media or via the link in the episode description.

13:43Gabby Logan:Make sure you hit subscribe and follow so you never miss an episode. And because it's almost Christmas, why don't you leave us a review? And the producer that wrote this was obviously brought up in Dickens' time because they've then added the line, coal in your stocking if it's a bad one.

14:04Mark Pougatch:Right, let's get on with it then. The Ashes third test starts tonight. But does the future of basball live or die with England's hope of keeping this series alive? We've got former England cricketer Darren Gough who's played in four Ashes series next.

14:18Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents.

14:29Gabby Logan:Darren, welcome to the Sports Agents. I had another former England Test bowler, Stephen Finn, say to me last night that before the series started, he thought Adelaide was England's best chance of winning a Test. So I hope he's right. Would you agree?

14:46Darren Gough:Yeah, I think Adelaide and Melbourne, I thought those are the two Test matches where I thought England had a better chance. the first test to catch Australia cold. They used to play, they prefer to play Brisbane in the first test match. So to play at Perth, if our preparation would have been better, I think we might have been in with a better chance against Australia's second team. Let's get, let's be straight here. Australia got none of their first really except start line, balling line-up. They made changes at the top of the border. They weren't quite sure about the middle order, who was going to bat where.

15:17Darren Gough:So we had a great opportunity at the start of this series in the first two test matches to be at the top. But now we find ourselves in a ridiculous position where we 2-0 down in six days cricket and now Adelaide comes around after a seven-day bender in Noosa. So it's going to be interesting what happens.

15:37Mark Pougatch:There's a couple of things to get into there, but I think I might pick up with a seven-day bender actually. Because every time I've listened in to Ellie Oldroyd, who's on Five Live all the time giving updates, and the questions about Noosa have been given, One, that it's a very small place and everybody can see what you're up to. So you've got no kind of way of hiding from the media. And two, what you just alluded to there, what should they have done between these tests, do you think?

16:02Darren Gough:If the preparation would have been spot on, I don't think there would have been any problem from anybody about England having a break mid-series. When I played, we could have done with that, you know, we could have done with a little break. But we had four warm-up games, four warm-up matches. we were physically tired we need a reset but I think if they went there in a small area with everything that had gone on and losing two matches in six days what did they think was going to happen I think it turned into a circus more than I don't think it was relaxing if everybody's different right within a sporting environment and you look around the dressing room and everybody's different so there'd be some of those people in that dressing room would have hated the last seven days would have hated it they would have stayed in their room not wanted to go anywhere except for the force on the beach let's have a game of kick-ups or swim in the cold water there would have been certain individuals would have just wanted to retreat to their room watch netflix or wherever they're going to watch and just stay away from all that palaver then you've seen the other guys who are in the bars quite happily drinking beers and listening to music but there were no freedom because there was media wherever they went did it end up being a relaxing seven days well we'll soon find out we'll soon find out in this test match if it worked or not if we lose this one i mean it's disaster zone i wouldn't want to be there for the next three weeks if

17:25Gabby Logan:if they do lose this one do you think they're saying the right things at the moment do you think from the moment they lost the second test their tone has changed stokes mccullum harry brooke even in the last 24, 48 hours, I've got to rein it in, I've got out some horrible shots. Do you think they're starting to say what we want to hear? Do they believe it themselves? Are they changing their tone in camp? It's difficult to tell, isn't it?

17:56Darren Gough:Well, they've got a very experienced media liaison and he's very, very good. And I felt for him, actually, when McCollum came out with, well, we're just going to have a beer, sit around and chat about We probably overtrained. I mean, I felt for him because he's so good at his job. He's the best in the business. And he was basically thrown under the bus by his coach. I think the messaging definitely has been there for everyone to please everyone. There's got to be slight differences. We all wanted to see the differences before the first test. We didn't want to see Harry Brook trying to sweep Mitchell Stark or whatever it is.

18:33Darren Gough:Harry Brook is such a talented individual. We know that. He's a brilliant player. I've managed him. I've managed Joe Root at Yorkshire, and I've seen the talent there. But that talent, he never played like that when he was scoring 800 runs in five matches for Yorkshire to get into this England side. He played positively, but he played proper cricket shots, you know, like Joe does. And I think there's got to be a reigning in. And I think I'd like to think he listens to someone like Joe, who's the best player in the world at this moment in time, and hopefully we'll see a difference. Brendan McCollum's always going to be what Brendan is, right?

19:07Darren Gough:It is a brand for him. It is brand McCollum. I know he says he doesn't like basball. I actually think he loves it because we're talking about him as a coach non-stop and he walks into any job in franchise cricket around the world. So it's just intelligence. I think we all want England to win. I'm desperate for England to win. I'm such an England supporter, but I'm all for positive cricket. I'm all for smacking the ball to all parts. I'm all for trying to ball them out and be as aggressive as possible. But in moments of the game where it can go that way or that way, you've got to use your brain.

19:43Darren Gough:Australia have done that. England haven't. That's why we're losing.

19:46Mark Pougatch:And that seems to be one of the frustrating factors so far from an England perspective, you know, the fans watching on, is the decision-making in managing these tests doesn't appear to have been very wise. They're kind of coming out and saying as much, as you alluded to there in the press in the last few days. and left people feeling unsatisfied with that? Because then you start to think, well, what was the last four years all about? If this isn't like, you know, an Olympic cycle and you're building to something, what have you actually built?

20:15Darren Gough:Well, exactly. I think that's one of the questions I've always said. And I think coming into this series, love watching it, love watching basketball when it works and it's successful. But there's been too many times, what is it, the last 30 games, won 14, lost 14. I mean, has it been a success? And I think it was all down to India and Australia series. India, with four of their best players missing, we should have won that series. We weren't the best team in that series and we somehow got a drawer out of it. Now this one become then vitally important, an Ashes series, for it to be close. At this moment in time, it's not close.

20:57Darren Gough:And if we carry on the way we are, the last three or four years has been an absolute waste because whoever comes in now is going to try and rebuild it again because they've got rid of a lot of the coaches within the side, you know, a lot of coaches within. He's brought in his close friendship circle. It's become like a football management style event. If this carries on the way it is, I still think it could change. But if it carries on the way it is and the players have kind of giving in to the old belief in the system, I think there's going to be wholesale changes. The only one that stays for me would be the skipper.

21:35Gabby Logan:It's interesting, isn't it, Darren? And you will know from your time as a cricketer and you will also know from your time as a coach as well and from loving other sports and watching other sports that one philosophy doesn't work through many years. And even Pep Guardiola changes what Manchester City do every couple of years and England probably needed the mentality of McCollum and Stokes when they took over to just take the pressure off and freedom and whatever it may be but that doesn't mean that it has to stay that way two years on four years on and that you have to you have to be more nuanced than that as a coach would you agree yeah I think freedom and and belief you're

22:27Darren Gough:going to play every game that continuity is such a big word when you're a director of cricket or whether you are you are a coach and I continue to do that I'm a coach I broadcast and obviously I manage as well I've I liked to do all of them because I like to experience what it's like as a coach I like to experience what it's like then when you're managing the coach and it's helped me become a better leader by doing those two big roles, you know. And I think it was what England needed, definitely. I think there was a fear of playing aggressive cricket and I think McCollum and Stokes coming in, I think it's mainly a McCollum thing and coming in at the right time where England, they're all millionaires now.

23:12Darren Gough:You've got to remember this. These guys are not earning, they're earning football wages. Some of these guys, people don't realise, I'm just watching the IPL auction today, and it's like mind-blowing. I'm fixing it because some of the figures they get thrown around, I think Cameron Green today, who's going to be playing in the Test matches, has gone for what,£2 million? £2 million.

23:33Gabby Logan:£2 million for 12 weeks cricket. And by the way, Darren, that was going slightly off topic, but that's someone who has the odd injury problem. Yeah. I mean, it's not like he's... £2 million, mate. Yeah.

23:45Mark Pougatch:£2 million. On that then, do you think it's as important for them to win an Ashes series down under as it was for you in your prime to try and go down there and take victory? We talk about this quite a lot, don't we, Chap? Because every time we do a deep dive into cricket, the kind of the crowded landscape, the different teams and ways they have to manage their year. Money's better than it's ever been. Demands on their time. They haven't got a winning mentality if you're only winning 50 % of your last 30 tests.

24:16Darren Gough:is it as important? I'd like to think it's important but we all know when you when you start earning a lot more money and you become popular it makes life a little bit easier doesn't it and sometimes you need someone to give you a kick now and again and just let you know but look look money's great but remember you've got to keep it going but if you went into the finances now at cricket some of the things we've seen over just like the IPL auction going on now the figures thrown around there is just out of this world the PSL in Pakistan now is is up their game financially you've seen the players out now in Dubai that the big players there are earning half a million for what three weeks work the hundred now has been bought out by the Indian owners Ari Brooks just gone for£470 ,000 for three weeks work in the UK.

25:10Darren Gough:His England contract on top. These guys are earning four, five, six million a year. And you've got to keep that hunger there for them. I always still believe, what do you want? I might be a little bit old school, but do you want to be remembered for your test cricket? Not T20, not ODI. I love playing in them and they were fantastic the crowd it's a different atmosphere it almost let the hand break off but as an England great you want to remember be remembered for your test match performances and Ben Stokes could easily overtake both of them as the greatest cricketer we've ever had right could easily do that but he needs his team to go with him because Beefy was out up there on his own one Ashes series and Ben Stokes has done it too but he's got an opportunity as a leader here to drag his team over the line and take them back from 2-0 down to to achieve something that's not only been done once in 150 years of cricket by the way Don Bradman 36-37 and Ben Stokes will be thinking that as well his legacy can he do it I still believe he can because he's a great leader

26:19Gabby Logan:but he needs his team to rein it in a little bit but also rein it in but also they owe him a little bit here don't they i mean i mean he he is always along with root england's england's go-to man matt prior was very critical of england in the field in brisbane on energy getting a bowler's cap for them just a little tap and you know so and he said something really interesting to me which is a small thing but he said in 2010 2011 they went into that series when they won in Australia and as a group they had a pact that no bowler would ever have to go more than 10 yards to go and get a cap from their cap from the umpire and if they were more than 10 yards away a fielder would go and get that cap and take it to them to to show that they were all in this together yeah and to reduce the workload on the bowler otherwise that extra 20 yards every time to go and get your cap actually builds up over the course of a day in the field in a test mat.

27:20Gabby Logan:And I thought, wow, it's a really small thing, isn't it, Darren? But it's a really interesting insight into team dynamic. And his argument was, this England team in the field looks so flat half the time. They owe Stokes that kind of team ethic and energy.

27:37Darren Gough:Is there a belief? What I will ask is, but there's a belief from Ben Stokes, without a doubt. There's a belief from Brendan McCollum, without a doubt. Those two are positive energy. They believe they can do anything, right? And I know them as cricketers. I've played against Brendan. I've played against Stokesy as well, believe it or not. I might be 55 now, but I actually played against Stokesy. But when I look at this young ball in a tap, there's no Anderson in there now. There's no Broad in there. There's no Wolves. Those three guys have been around a long time. We're relying, the most capped bowler we've got in our side, is Bashir.

28:13Gabby Logan:Yeah.

28:13Darren Gough:And they've not played him in this next test. He's the most capped. It's remarkable when you think about it. And so when it gets, going gets tough and you're in Australia, which is arguably the toughest place to go is an England cricketer. I think they've been found wanting at the moment. And this mental reset that probably did have in Newstead as well, there would have been hopefully some good stuff that's gone on there. A lot of sit around in a room and talk about where they've got to improve. And that's where Audi Brooks' message comes from. But he knows he's got to rein it in in certain areas.

28:46Mark Pougatch:Are they as a group, do you think, honest enough with each other then that they would have those frank conversations and they can come to a place where they can all put their hand up where they've been found short and wanting?

28:59Darren Gough:Is there enough seniority within that team to stand up and talk? Right, you've got to be a brave man to stand up and talk against Stokes and McCullum, right? Look, they're both powerful individuals. Joe Root would have a voice. But have you met Joe Root? He's the quietest, nicest man you'll ever meet. He's such a wonderful person. And he'll say stuff and it'll be measured and it'll be softly spoken. But someone like, I can assure you now, Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad would definitely, Jimmy Anderson would moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan. Stuart would be a bit more of a stronger personality.

29:37Darren Gough:but they got their message across and people follow certain individuals, seniority. I just think there's a lot of players in that squad who have all played a similar number of caps who are kind of comfortable with their position because they've never been dropped which is a good thing to have, you know, it's good to be continued to in selection but you've got to have the performances to back it up and I don't think we've got that from a lot of our players. There's a lot of average performance that's been rewarded for many years. And that's because the management above have closed the bubble and made it a bubble.

30:13Darren Gough:And county cricket has become irrelevant on selection. It doesn't matter how good you are in county cricket. You're getting picked because you can bowl at 84 miles an hour plus or you can smash the ball to all parts. That's what you're getting picked for.

30:26Mark Pougatch:At the very beginning of this, we were just getting set up and I said something about, because you're wearing your England top there. I said something about you being excited. You said, I don't know about excited. And I thought, I wonder where his emotions are today. And I can hear it. Your emotions seem to be frustration, veering onto a little bit of anger maybe. Yeah, yeah.

30:45Darren Gough:Well, that's my personality to a T.

30:49Mark Pougatch:Brilliant. True Yorkshireman. Is there any room for optimism in this jigsaw of emotions today?

30:56Darren Gough:Yeah, also I wouldn't have this on. I will always support England football, cricket, whatever sport. I'm a passionate person. I believe, I believe that Ben Stokes, we've got a leader who can get the best out of his team. Look, Australia have played this brand of cricket for 25 years. England didn't invent this brand of cricket. Please. Australia have been doing this since I made my debut in the early 90s, you know. But what they are good at, they get in a winning position, they make sure they win the game. We get into winning positions and somehow we lose it. Think back to the Oval. Last year, India.

31:34Darren Gough:We walk in the game, seven wickets in hand. Harry Brooks over at 100. He plays a silly shot. We lose seven wickets for 20 runs and we lose the match. That's what we can do. Australia don't do that. Australia don't do that. I still have faith in the players we have got. I think the toss of the coin is going to be vital in Adelaide. The weather can be really, really hot. And as a bowler, with our bowling unit, I think that is our weakness at the moment. I hate saying it, but the confidence is going to be low. By the way, this optimism is waning fast. No, it is. I think we should. It is. Ben Stokes is, I keep saying it, but he's so good with batting hand as a fielder, as a leader and as a bowler.

32:19Darren Gough:Would it surprise me if he got 100 with a bat this test match and got 5-0 in a ball? No, no at all, because he can do that. I just don't know where the other wickets are going to come from. I really don't. And we're playing our second spinner.

32:31Gabby Logan:Right. We're playing our second spinner. So shall we say, we'll stay optimistic, Darren, and it'll be 2-2 going into Sydney, and we'll get you back on to talk about the decider and reminisce about the hat trick back in 99.

32:45Darren Gough:Absolutely. If that happens, I mean, it is game on, and the old landscape changes, doesn't it? You know how quick sport changes quickly, right? Sometimes it's hard to break that momentum. if we break it and get a result the pressure then goes back on australia right and so it's all about this game if we lose this one i mean the wheels are gonna well and truly come off i mean the media are gonna have a field day we're just doing post-mortems for the next few weeks absolutely if we win it look it gives them a bit of leeway and going on to melbourne the boxing day test which is an unbelievable experience for anybody no matter who you are to turn up boxing day 100 thousand people as a cricketer when you walk out there it's so special you want something on it

33:28Mark Pougatch:though it'll be more special if there's something on it won't it well there'll be changes if we lose

33:32Darren Gough:this one so it will be them planning for the future well we haven't got that many changes to bring in have we we've only got bethel um would come in bashir then we'll get a game again um and then pots would probably come in as well so but let's hope we win in adelaide and all set for melbourne the sports agents

33:54Darren Gough:the sports agents with gabby logan and mark chapman

34:00Mark Pougatch:so has darren made you feel hopeful or are you feeling like the next few weeks is going to be there's going to be a lot of hard talking and reckoning um i think they might win this

34:14Gabby Logan:i just have that i just have that sneaky feeling it's it's backs against the wall they've shown glimpses if you think that the messages from Stokes and Brook are genuine and not what they think we want to hear there's just something about sport every now and then that just flicks back and the Aussies have got Cummins back and Lyon back and oh wow they're getting back to full strength sometimes it can just bite you and I'm probably doing that more in hope I just want the Boxing Day test to start with something on the line.

34:55Mark Pougatch:Well, remember, we have got some past episodes, such as Tuffer's Love Letter to the Ashes, when everyone was filled with hope for this series. And you can listen to that on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts.

35:07Gabby Logan:Get in touch with us via email, thesportsagentsatglobal.com, or messages on social media, or via the link in the show notes.

35:13Mark Pougatch:And of course, you can subscribe or follow and leave a review. Thanks for listening.

35:16Darren Gough:The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.