Do England need a makeover after Six Nations collapse?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:05Mark Pougatch:Just 10 days ago, it was a completely different story for England at the Six Nations. And doesn't head coach Steve Borthwick know it? Two weeks ago, people were talking about us being 12 wins on the bounce. And people were saying all kinds of positive things about this team. And they weren't, they weren't, not all of them were true. and then people are saying, I'll be saying right now after two losses, people will be saying other things about this team and they won't all be true either. The truth will be somewhere in the middle where we're a team that's got plenty of work to do. We know that. I've always said that.

0:42Has lots of growth in it and ultimately now is, in the last two weeks, has played against two high quality teams and they've been better than us. So on Saturday, we saw Ireland break through England's defence again and again and spare a thought for the England fans who bought the tickets to the final weekend in Paris, probably thinking it would be a Grand Slam decider.

1:04Mark Pougatch:But is Steve right? Are we all overreacting? Do England need to change to avoid the unthinkable against Italy? And what does this mean for the build-up to next year's World Cup? Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:23The Sports Agents.

1:24Mark Pougatch:with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, Mark. Hi, Gabby. We're going to talk Six Nations later, aren't we? So we'll, I know you were in Wales, so we'll park that. I had a very strange experience on Sunday evening, not watching Match of the Day, not watching you and Shay looking like he was nude. But I really enjoyed a closing ceremony. And I can't remember the last time that I actually really enjoyed. It was on in the Match of the Day office. And I caught a little bit in front of what looked like the Coliseum, was it? It was, no, it was the amphitheatre in Verona. That's where they did it, which is I think a couple of hours from Milan.

2:06Right, right.

2:06Mark Pougatch:Yes, of course. Why would they be in Rome?

2:11Mark Pougatch:Can we edit that? Absolutely not. Okay. This might be off the back of doing a Six Nations and Match of the Day. So just idiot, you know, idiot alert there. And I actually was in Verona last year. So I saw that amphitheatre up close. so even more double idiot but go on tell me what you loved about it they just did it really really beautifully there was so there was loads of opera in it i mean you will have seen you obviously had the sound down in the match of the delvis but you will have visually what a stunning stunning place and even little touches like once they handed over the olympic flag from italy to france as the next ones are going to be sort of in the Alps and Nice and various other places around there.

2:56But they did a quite stunning version of the Marseillaise with various French athletes coming in and violinists. And it was, it was spine tingling, but there was so much of it that was, I don't know, actually really classical and really classy. And yeah, you know, we had some electro pop and some DJs come in and everything, which was great. And it got the athletes going, But I just thought it was quite simple. It didn't seem to try to.

3:25Mark Pougatch:Did you see the opening ceremony? Because I enjoyed various moments of that as well. I didn't see the opening ceremony. I was actually in Rome for the Six Nations and watched it on Italian TV. Did you just look out the window? And I thought that had some brilliant moments as well. So whoever was in charge of both those ceremonies, maybe they should just be employed all the time by the IOC to do opening and closing ceremonies. It doesn't matter. So whatever's been on, I've just found myself absorbed in it. Even yesterday at one stage, I mean, God, the two o 'clock yesterday in the Premier League were difficult.

4:01Tell me about it. So, you know, I ended up watching a bit of USA Canada in the men's gold medal match in the ice hockey, which went to overtime. And what they do in overtime, they reduce it to three on three rather than, I don't know what hockey is normally, five on five, is it? I don't know. but three on three and that gives it an extra energy there was just the stuff like that that

4:24Mark Pougatch:you would never normally well i didn't obviously catch the game because i was doing match the day but i saw on social media later the the u.s victory and that one of their players who would have been there and would have been on the ice um johnny gaudreau yeah died two years ago with his brother they were on um on their bikes and were hit by a car and um one of the players two of the players actually went into the crowd and brought their children, one of whom it was his birthday, onto the ice. And it was such an emotional moment. And I kind of love that about the Winter Olympics. They seem to breach protocol more.

4:56Mark Pougatch:You know what I mean? I always feel like in the Summer Olympics, everything's so strict that you can't get your bagpipes into the curling, as Scotland managed to do by putting them into a pram. You know, you can't get anything into the stadium, no contraband substances, or obviously not the substances, but no contraband materials. but damn them for not allowing drugs into that olympics but um but the winter seems to be a bit little bit more relaxed whether it's the stories as we know we've enjoyed on the podcast that have come out about you know the the ski jumpers injecting their penises or the running out of condoms it's been a fun but also emotional and you know and olympics it's given us great sport and greater camaraderie that's what we've thought haven't we just yeah a lot of camaraderie appreciation for each other's performances.

5:39Mark Pougatch:Speaking of performances, it was very important that Arsenal got back to winning ways yesterday for their title race and Spurs didn't really make it very difficult for them, did they? In terms of getting the exact same scoreline they had in the first North London derby of the season. And I happened to notice before I came on the podcast today, Wayne Rooney basically kind of on his podcast saying he thinks that they're a terrible team and he really fears for them and being very brutal about their chances of surviving even, which is just incredible that were saying this they're four points above the relegation zone I think I think that bad do you think that they can't they you know are they going to be better than Nottingham Forest are they going to be better than West Ham I don't think at the moment and this this does sound daft but they don't have the options that Nottingham Forest and West Ham do and I think at this stage you know that could play a part.

6:34They've had so many injuries and they've had, you know, suspensions as well, no Romero and whatever. But they had, I think, three senior outfield players, did they, on the bench yesterday in Richarlison and Tell and Solanke. And aside from that, it was a whole load of kids. I think they had James Wilson on the bench who they brought in from Hearts on deadline day. but again is 18, 19. So when you look at the options that they had on the bench, then Igor Tudor doesn't have very many ways in which to change this team at the moment unless you throw in kids, but you're in a relegation battle. And whilst doing that, I just sort of looked at the West Ham bench, for example, in the goalless draw with Bournemouth.

7:27And look, you may think that a lot of these players don't necessarily pull up trees, but they're all senior pros, you know, in Wilson and Traore and Kilman and Walker-Peters and Tadibo. So, and certainly Forrest have got a lot of senior options.

7:46Mark Pougatch:And Forrest did look, actually, you know, Liverpool, by their own admission, were very lucky at the end of that game. And they were terrible in the first half. But Forrest looked just, they've got a bit more fight. If I was going to back a horse in these two at the moment, the ones who look like they can roll their sleeves up would be Forrest. Yeah, well, yeah, and Vita Pereira will do that. And I suppose Nuno has given West Ham some fight. You've just got to feel for Spurs fans because they will feel that all life for all energy has been sucked out of that club for quite a long time now. And they will have the figures that they will blame for that.

8:21But the fight, as you said, the fight looks like it's elsewhere, doesn't it?

8:25Mark Pougatch:And I can't imagine the worst case scenario for them. They go down and Arsenal win the title. Well, it could get worse than Arsenal do a double or a treble or even a quadruple. I mean, that would be, I mean, goodness. It's not over yet, Spurs fans. No. You know, there's a long way to go. Right, we're going to dissect England's painful weekend in the Six Nations next with David Flattman, ex-England rugby player. And remember, you can catch up on previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or if you get your podcasts, make sure you subscribe or follow. leave a review and if you want to get in touch with us you can on our socials at the sports agents or email the sports agents at global.com the sports agents hey what's up oh just scrolling on zocdoc looking for an in-network therapist to help with my adhd this review says dr hamilton is a patient listener that sounds good no i need someone to check me when i ramble like dr xavier here his patients say he keeps sessions on track which is great because once I go off on a tangent, I just keep going.

9:25Like this one time, I was...

9:26Mark Pougatch:Tangent alert. How about you book the appointment first? Ah, smart. Booked it. So, like I was saying... Wait, what was I saying? You've got options. Download the ZocDoc app today.

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10:28The Sports Agents.

10:30Mark Pougatch:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Can I start and ask you both, because I'm just doing this as a fan, and you two have obviously covered an awful lot of Six Nations. I can't remember a more enjoyable first three weekends to a Six Nations with some of the rugby and some of the storylines. forget nationalities whichever one of you wants to go first here but i find myself on the edge of my seat every single week i think it's fair to say isn't it flats that there hasn't been a dull moment it's a shifting narrative which we're all enjoying unless of course you're an england fan who was expecting to go to france on the last weekend and win a grand slam yeah you've done a couple of quid on planning your trip um chappers i take your point in terms of drama and and that's the world we're in we're in the sort of the world of in sport we want the stories not sort of you know salacious gossip we want sporting stories and that's what we're getting in terms of pure enjoyment mate there are challenges to being English and commentating on England the last couple of weeks like it's you know it's not all about me but you ask me and that that has been it's easier when it the results you know when England don't get bashed basically it's easier but I I do absolutely take your point and agree with you that this has the Six Nations has already delivered a load of stuff that nobody in their right mind might have predicted.

11:54Mark Pougatch:What has really struck me, and I think I said on the podcast about three weeks ago before the Six Nations started, the run that England were on, the way they got over the line in the autumn, I fully expected them to get to the final weekend and be in with a shout of winning this championship. And I don't think that was a stupid position to take on the back of a 12 game winning run. Now, being beaten by Scotland is not so unusual, but not bouncing back in any way and just performing how they did against Ireland. I think that's the most shocking thing about England in this Six Nations so far, because as we know, Scotland could raise their game for England any time they like.

12:31Mark Pougatch:But for England not to raise their game the following week, they look like there might be deeper problems. There's probably an old saying that a week's a long time in sport. Two weeks feels like a really long time for England because it is, in sporting terms, it's five minutes ago that we were kind of all looking ahead to Paris, to France, England as a Grand Slam decider. And then some of us are thinking, God, they're playing South Africa in Joburg the first weekend of July. Oh, my God, that'll be the best two teams in the world. Hang on a minute. You know, so I'm sure the players weren't doing that, but we were.

13:03I was. remove the whole uh nationality thing away from it it is fascinating actually and it goes back to the old you know very unoriginal sort of repeating mike tyson's trope that everyone's got a plan until well actually england have have done you can get really technical about it if you want to but england have basically started games um and people talk about oh they don't want it you look at heart rate monitors and GPS, they'll be flat out. The lads are flat out, but they started games and made crucial errors really early and just had to absorb loads of pressure from an Ireland team that wasn't meant to beat them and Scotland team that wasn't meant to beat them.

13:45But these guys are elite pros who have won lots and lots of big games. They know what they're doing. And England are kind of, they're gifting momentum early in games to teams and letting teams effectively get their tails up and then it becomes really, really difficult. And ultimately, it's kind of, it's not all about the first 10 minutes, but when something goes badly wrong against Scotland, for example, and then the same things happen in the first few minutes against Ireland, it is a weird thing that happens in sport because what can happen is these demons from last week and what might be about to happen appear in front of your nose.

14:21and it is really hard to put those aside so you can lose real quick. But the other point of that, Flats, as well, is the two teams that they've played were, as Gabby says, they do have the capability to raise their game, for example, Scotland, but both were vulnerable because of how their own tournaments have started. So by making those mistakes, you compound it, don't you? because one, you're not putting them away early on, but as you said, you're allowing vulnerable teams to get their tails up early and suddenly their vulnerability starts to disappear. What you might sort of understandably, but a bit lazily call it would be complacency.

15:05But I just wonder if playing against teams that you are supposed to beat is really often more difficult than playing against teams who are supposed to batter you because there is that, there is, oh, you're the underdog. There is that fear. it is fear it's adrenaline and fear and I wonder if kind of there was enough adrenaline coursing through English veins at Murrayfield and at the aliens at the weekend I wonder if there was enough if there was enough urgency and not just oh god we're going to get in trouble for this but fear about getting filled in effectively and getting beaten up um so I they didn't they just haven't looked urgent enough they've looked physically knackered to me the last couple of weeks and that I find strange, but I also wonder if it's psychological.

15:48Can I just follow up on that expectancy thing, which is people will talk about the run that they went on coming into this Six Nations, and indeed the win against Wales gave them 12 in a row. And of course, we look at what they did in the Autumn Internationals and the teams that they beat in the Autumn Internationals. Is there less pressure on Autumn Internationals because in the end they are at this moment in time, in inverted commas, friendlies. So is there less pressure on them? Absolutely. I think when you're in the moment as a player and a coach, I'm sure you don't know that because you're playing the All Blacks or you're playing Australia and it's big time.

16:29But actually the Six Nations is something a bit different. It's a tournament. It's a proper tournament, which the Autumns now will be with a Nations Championship. But I think you might be right. And also, you know, Australia weren't great in the autumn. The All Blacks team were nothing like a great All Blacks team. However, look at any elite pro team that goes on a good run. There's always the opposition didn't turn up once or twice. There's a bit of luck. That's every run that's ever happened. That's not diminishing what England achieved. But it's like, actually, they came up against Scotland and Scotland took them apart.

17:03And they were less rigid in the way they played. And they decided they saw how England were going to play. and they're going to try and win the game in the air. And they said, we're going to back ourselves to take it away from you. And if any of your kicks go a bit stray, a bit too long, a bit too short, we've got free license to tear you apart and we think we're good enough. So that's what they did. And as soon as that island did effectively the same thing, they did a lot of the same things. And then it's just this fascinating little example observation of human behaviour where you see top of the range players doing things they would never do.

17:37They would just never normally do that. It's so big. Ellis Genge's missed tackle in midfield on Caelan Doris. He puts a big shoulder in. He's not shirking anything. He wouldn't have done that in a decade. I mean, it honestly won't be far off that. He would not have got his technique that wrong and not put his arm up. And you just think all these great players, this pressure has arrived. And I wonder if they really didn't expect that pressure to arrive unconsciously.

18:02Mark Pougatch:Whether it was Ellis Genge or George Ford, in the post-match aftermath, there was a lot of mea culpering and a lot of we're really apologising for this performance. And we've got to have a proper, honest and uncomfortable review. I mean, it sounded like they just lost a final almost that they were expected to win. Is this a time with the World Cup 18 months out? Is this a really good time to have an honest review? And what does that look like within a squad that seemed to be looking quite settled and building towards that World Cup? I mean, I always used to, when you go on a couple of bad losses and you know there's an honesty meeting coming, which is what they always call it.

18:41I just tried to blame everyone else with the loudest voice possible. That's how I did it. I kept getting recontracted, mate, so it worked. That's how I did it. It was never my fault. But I think it's not lads in the room shouting, you were crap, you were crap, you were crap. I think it's like, right, what we're doing here, lads, is really suddenly not working. However, you don't suddenly, great players don't. George Ford was, you know, was the king of the world three weeks ago, right? So he's not suddenly no good. He hasn't had a great couple of weeks. I'm not sure what fly half could have played for England that looked great in the last two weeks, frankly.

19:17So, you know, I'm getting messages off time. I've got my neighbour speaking to me, Big Ron. George Ford's got to go. I said, mate, you had a poster of him on your wall two weeks ago. Chill out. you know so there's not all that but I think there needs to be Bizarrely

19:30Mark Pougatch:your computer sent a thumbs up at that moment didn't it it was somebody a message from from the above the gods whatever you believe in just decided they also wanted a change in England's standoff Big Ron wants to get rid of him and as you say you know there are knee-jerk reactions that are going to come around but there are question marks aren't there suddenly last year we were you know it was all about which Smith you know could take that birth And Finn Smith, you know, is arguably the man who's pulling the strings for the top team in the country at the moment and in Northampton Saints. And Sale are kind of the obverse, aren't they?

20:06Mark Pougatch:You know, they're having a really hard season and certainly much harder without George Ford there. Is there an argument to make a change at this stage in a Six Nations? Yeah, yeah, I do think there is. But there's a big difference between that. They'll call it rotation or whatever. There's a big difference between dropping someone for a game or two and their career being over. I think George Ford, he'll get a lot more England caps. He's a wonderful, wonderful player. But most of the English players, by their own admission, I'm sure, have had a pretty average couple of games, right? So I think for the Italy match, and by the way, that was interesting anyway because Italy are a properly threatening team now, proper team.