Does every Transfer SAGA need a villain? | Alvarez, Martinelli, Watkins

0:00Ian Wright:Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast! An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees, may apply. this is a global production yeah the croatian version of the sports agents and edam is having very different conversation about this fight but you know we're rivals so we don't really talk about them too much you should mention them again gabby whatever you do don't mention the croatians there is loyalty in football but it's the fans towards their own football club well it's i can't help but draw parallels with relationships you know once a cheater always a cheater anyway and the minute that a bigger club is swirling around him all of a sudden the player wants to down towards us a big difference the way that say they speak like they're the voice of the fans they're not because they're running a business themselves a lot of guys and they are all men with egos wanting to be the one that feels they've got the best deal do you believe players have significant power in football now yeah i do why because i don't think they do

1:31Hello and welcome to the Sports Agents. It is just you and me today, Nadam. How are you? I'm very good. I'm very good. How are you? Yeah, I've had an eventful morning. Go on, tell me more. Tell me more. Well, my button popped off my trousers in the toilet in the global building. Somebody walked in because I hadn't locked the door. It was a bloke because there's kind of unisex toilets. And I think I panicked. And then, yeah, it was raining. I had an umbrella. You know, just everything kind of start to the day that you just didn't ask for. That kind of start to the day, really. So I'm sitting here with a safety pin keeping my trousers up.

2:04At least you know when all these bad things happen, it can only get better. It cannot get worse. I haven't spilled coffee over myself today. So that's it. That's the start, yeah. This is what we do in adulthood. Did we spill coffee on ourselves? No, we didn't. It's a great beginning. Small, small kind of successes, small wins. That's what I'm building today on. So hopefully it'll get better as we chat over the next hour or so. And we do have a lot to chat about because we're going to be touching on potentially the story of maybe Britain's next great heavyweight. Well, he is a hope already, but maybe next heavyweight champion.

2:3721 year old Moses Atama could become the second youngest heavyweight world champion in history behind who, Natham? Britain's youngest ever. Yeah, but the world's, the world's. Oh, probably Mike Tyson then. Absolutely. Frank Warren is going to join us, who, of course, is his promoter, to talk about him. And of course, we discussed this on Monday's episode as well, the summer transfer window and the drama that is ensuing from that. It closes on Monday. A lot of players are still at the centre of sagas. I think it's fair to use the word saga with this. Yeah, saga's right, yeah. Yeah, we've got Alvarez, Atletico Madrid, not wanting him to go to Barcelona.

3:12We've got Oli Watkins, who we talked about a little bit on Monday's episode. And then Jean-Philippe Mateta, who's had arguments in the past year, hasn't he, about leaving Crystal Palace. We all saw, of course, the reception that Alexander Isak got at St. James's Park. A lot of booing for him at the weekend. It was very pantomime-esque. I was kind of for it. I thought it was good entertainment. Nothing sinister, just a bit of booing. In fact, actually, what was better was just that he didn't really feature in the game massively. And then Ian Wright has kind of waded in a little bit, hasn't he, on Martinelli's treatment from Arsenal.

3:49And that's the other side of the coin, if you like. So that's got us thinking about where blame should be or is attributed in these situations. You're going to come at this from a very different perspective, I imagine. Yeah, who would have thought the former player? Who would have thought? Were you at the PFA Awards on Tuesday night? No. And to be honest, for several reasons, I just would never choose to go to it. I'll let you in on something here. Sometimes, say if you go on holiday somewhere as a player and you see lots of other players there, you call it the PFA Awards and that's not really something that I aspire to ever do.

4:21So yeah, even though I really respect all my peers, I just don't really like being around them for long periods when I don't have to be. Well, the winners reflected the football writers' choices, which were earlier in the year, of course, of Bruno Fernandes for the men, Bunny Shaw for the women. And Bunny Shaw obviously came from a team who had great success in the league as well. But Bruno Fernandes, controversially, some might say, not a player from the team that ended up winning the league. Are you some? are you some some might say are you part of the sum no I'm not one of the sum actually are you do you resent no I'm absolutely not part of the sum Arsenal fans maybe are the sum total of the sum there's a lot of Arsenal fans who might think that one of their players would deserve the award especially you know them breaking that kind of you know 20 odd year kind of jinx of not winning it's not a jinx I mean they didn't win it for various reasons but they especially in the last few seasons when they've been second so many times getting over the line winning the league there must have been a player in serious contention for that award?

5:17Yeah, I'm sure there was. And I think by all accounts, the word was it was probably going to be Declan Rice. But then you could make a case that say something like David Raya had a better personal season for Arsenal than say Declan Rice did. And for me, with Bruno Fernandes making history in terms of the breaking his assist record from Thierry Henry and Kevin De Bruyne, like that is a very significant player within the season. And if it's a case of you can only give it to the team that's going to win the title, I think Declan Rice has had better seasons for Arsenal. and not won the award. So I'm not really on board with it.

5:49And also there's a bit of contention because lo and behold, Bruno Fernandes picked an unnamed person for Arsenal. Listen, he cannot pick himself. So let's have that not be too controversial because they were some of the best players. And interestingly, they were the best players defensively that led the way for them in that PFA team of the year. Yeah, they obviously dominate the team of the year, the club with the most players in there. interestingly his quote well I don't think it's not so much interesting or a big surprise but when asked if he would have swapped that trophy the PFA Player of the Year with Manchester United winning a trophy last season he said it's quite obvious everyone would say the same we don't play tennis i.e.

6:30no for the record for the record not to name any names but I've played with plenty of strikers who would reverse that okay that's all I'm going to say not midfielders or defenders or goalkeepers plenty of strikers who have been more than happy to score a couple of goals in a defeat because it helps them get towards golden boots and stuff like that. Listen. But Bruno Fernandes is not that man, clearly. Olivia Smith, who won Young Player of the Year, the Canadian, she's an interesting, she moved for a million pounds to Arsenal and she's incredibly ambitious and I think she's the second year running.

7:02She's won this award as well. So she's ticking off all of her kind of bucket list things that she wrote out for herself as a child, one by one. So expect Canada to win the next World Cup by that reckoning. in play. Listen, Brazil, next summer, it's in play. Canada have got a really good side and Livy Smith is a star, so anything is possible. It is, and we're going to add British football agent Saif Ruby into the mix as well. You might remember his name because he was involved in a very controversial transfer saga involving Liverpool and Bobby Duncan, and that was back in 2019, but he's also responsible for bringing Johan Wisser to Newcastle United at the very late hour last last year in the transfer window last summer.

7:45So at the moment, Newcastle fans are very grateful for that because he started the season flying. But we'll talk to him about all of that shortly.

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8:30Well, I'm delighted to say, to discuss the shenanigans, the politics, the drama and the melodrama that is going on as the transfer window slowly comes to a close, we can speak to someone who knows all about these last minute moves. Safe Ruby, who is a football agent who has been in the thick of many a moment like this before. Safe, thanks for joining us. Should we talk first of all about Ollie Watkins and what's going on there? Because I think this is a classic example of player trying to force move, manager kind of deflecting on Sunday in the post-match press arena, kind of the whole thing towards the player and the agent.

9:12The fans starting to take umbrage with player and it could all go horribly wrong if they don't get this over the line because then he's forced to stay at the club and that doesn't seem to work for anybody as we've seen with a few examples in recent times. What are your thoughts on Oli Watkins' move? I mean, look, the problem in football is for whatever reason, the people sort of managing and running these football clubs love to hang on to players in a situation like this for a lot longer than need be because at the end of the day, if you know, for example, you have a player like Oli Watkins who's 30 years old, only got maybe a couple of years left at the highest level, you're going to be able to potentially get a fortune for him, for his value.

9:55And to be honest, the only reason for that is because of the fact that maybe the people running Al-Hilal now are from England. Simon Francis is there now, So he's typically someone who might identify an English player, let's say, to go to Saudi. So you have a situation where you're going to get a lot more money than you would do from another club. And then the player will get to earn a fortune. You know you've got that money coming in. Obviously, there's been rumours of Nicholas Jackson coming in to replace him in Aston Villa, which from Chelsea. You know, instead of just making it awkward, just get on with it.

10:31Make it happen. They're just looking for more money. Everybody's looking for more money, aren't they? isn't that what Villa are hanging out for? Is that what it seems to you? Yes and no. I mean, they're hanging on for more money. They want to try and secure their first deal. But obviously they've known about a Nicholas Jackson deal for almost two months because of the fact that they just sold Morgan Rodgers to Chelsea for a record price at the time. So, you know, it's just for some reason the way the transfer window works makes everybody, you know, gravitated towards doing things in the last minute.

11:03and that's what ends up happening. What I want to know realistically from the two of you to be fair, where does loyalty actually lie within football? Because we're talking about, say, a fan's perspective, there's a player's perspective, there's a club's perspective and Saif has said himself there and we've kind of seen it. With Villa, they want more money, there's no more money available and like Gabi as well, from my perspective with this, say for any club that maybe you may or may not support, if you knew of a player that wanted to leave, would you want to keep hold of the player or would you try and make the move happen?

11:34I think that's what the fans start to turn on, isn't it? The idea that a player can reject them. They see it as rejection because he wants to go somewhere else. Especially in Villa's case, I guess the fans are going, hang on, we all had our greatest moment in decades. We won a European trophy and now you want to go. We've got Champions League football. What's wrong with you? I can't believe you want to do this to us, right? So fans start to feel affronted. Now, if you get the right price for a player and fans, I don't know about you, Safer, If fans see a player's true value, they feel, being reflected in what they sell him for, then they see a player coming in who they feel is a really great replacement.

12:10I think they're OK with all that. I think it's when it starts dragging on like this and you have a player who looks like he's downed tools. Because that was the inference, wasn't it, from Unai Emery on Sunday, that Olly Watkins is refusing to play. Silence. And I think that as an agent must be quite frustrating when a manager throws a little bit of spice into the mix like that. I mean, look, for me, it's very simple. There's no loyalty in football. There you go, Nedim. There you go. No, there's no loyalty. And, you know, it's funny because they want to make it out like the players and their agents are the ones who are like bad and making the problem.

12:49But the reality is when a club's trying to push a player out, you know, they'll have him on the bench, they'll have him out in the squad and they'll try and put pressure on that way. So it works both ways. And the reality is, you know, they've had amazing service from Ollie Watkins. They're going to make a nice profit from him. They've had usage of him. You know, don't make it such a drama. Even if you agree a deal where the player knows, OK, the deal's done, maybe not publicly, it's done. You know, behind the scenes, it's done. Just, you know, get on and play until we finish getting our replacement in.

13:23And that's it. Everyone, everyone's happy. but they always want to turn it into a drama and make it into a confrontation, which is unnecessary. Well, it doesn't work for anybody, does it? Because as you say then, you know, he even said, ask the agent, right? So that doesn't sound great for the agent. Makes it sound like he's not done his business in a way that Unai Emery liked. Then you have, I think, the drama even heightened by Atletico Madrid's statement regarding Julian Alvarez. The players being victimised, but the only victim of the Julian case is us. They've harmed us economically and socially.

13:52there's 0 % chance of selling him to Barca this situation is not about money it's about dignity there's 0 % chance of selling him to Barcelona I mean that as an agent if you heard a club come out with a statement like that you're Julien's agent what are you thinking the next move is there? There's different situations there's situations where a club like Atletico Madrid and Nedim will know this because obviously Alvarez moved from his old club Man City and Atletico Madrid invested a fortune on Alvarez. So they've paid top money for him, top salary, top this. It's a different situation to Oli Watkins where he was signed, I think it was from Brentford, for 20 odd million quid.

14:35And now they're about to double, more than double their money after getting four or five years usage, whatever many years usage out of him. You know, with Alvarez, he's only been there a couple of years. And the minute that a bigger club like a Barcelona is, is swirling around him, all of a sudden the player wants to down too. That's a big difference. Alvarez has done nothing for Atletico Madrid. So Atletico Madrid have every right to say, listen, you're taking the mickey. Unless we get the right price, you're staying here. But then, Nadeem, what does it do for that player? If he's got to stay there, the fans have turned on him.

15:09How is he going to go into work with his head held high on Monday morning? There's a lot to this. And there's one thing I'd push back a little bit against in terms of our general discussion, especially the point that Safe made is like there is loyalty in football but it's the fans towards their own football club I think that part basically remains steadfast because for the most part that's their identity but I think the way that sometimes we should look at football is that other people like when we say the club who are we talking about because some of those figures change year in year out I think if you're employed within football loyalty only goes so far before people take advantage and you essentially put on the scrap heap itself and with Julian he he made some words about how he wanted to fulfill a dream.

15:49I think it was before the World Cup and that dream was to go to Barcelona. He just happens to be a club in Atletico who've had a relationship that is destroyed with Barcelona. So he's thought this move could happen. He thought Atletico will probably want to move him on. But now he's left in a position to where the fans will probably never forgive him. Many figures within the club possibly will because they understand what he's like. But now it's the politics of the move. The board and so on have to represent the views of the fans even if they don't believe it themselves. you know you've probably seen yourself safe they're driving up the price driving on the price and the way that say they speak is similar in some ways in my opinion to the way that you were for spoken fifa spoke early this summer like they're the voice of the fans they're not because they're running a business themselves so for julian yeah he's in a really really delicate position because he's been booed now he wasn't in the first squad he's been booed and i think from my point here gabby as well it's very difficult to sort of make the case for players rights when people will immediately say well they're being paid x amount of money and so they should do x y and z i don't necessarily believe that things are that simple because there's so much stuff which is comparable on day-to-day life in terms of general feeling and emotion and for julian if he thinks he can leave and the club essentially understand that they can get money for him keeping him here almost turns into a circus you would have thought like i asked you before you would have thought that like some sort of deal being done is is a good thing better for everybody exactly and even the again perspective wise the Aston Villa one was talking so much about Ollie Watkins because he wasn't there for that first game of the season but neither was Morgan Rogers neither was Uri Tielemans neither was Esri Konza because those deals just happened to have happened quicker but that business and that business is all done away from the spotlight of I think it gets worse once the ball is kicked once the first game of the season happens it seems to exacerbate the emotion and then especially when teams as Villa did at the weekend they got absolutely crushed and teams start to see what they're missing don't they from those players who have gone oh they feel that the players that they've come in maybe aren't quite you know gelling yet whatever I mean there's been a as we discussed on Monday Villa has been quite extraordinary how many first team players first team squad players have gone already over this transfer window so you know I guess the fans are feeling a bit burnt a bit more burnt say than you know the let's talk about the Newcastle situation actually because you were a cog in that safe in a little bit of a kind of small way anyway in terms of the Wisser move coming in and that was all in a bit more than a small one but yeah well what I mean is Wisser seemed at the time like you know a player coming into Newcastle in that summer really was overshadowed because of the drama that was going on with Isak leaving so it was almost like you know the headlines were talking about that story So I didn't mean that disparagingly.

18:34Obviously, Wisser's turning out this season. It would look like he could be, you know, the greatest signing. We never realised we needed because we didn't get the best of Wisser last season, did we? I don't think. We didn't see the best of him. I mean, to be honest, again, you know, they knew a long, long time before the end of the season last year. I think that Isak wanted to leave. So I think it was one of those situations. And again, money plays into it, Gabby, because obviously Liverpool, for example, were waiting till they, when they were like financially ready fully to make a big move for the player.

19:08So I think they waited for Luis Diaz to move to Bayern Munich, for example. You know, they were waiting to, to get players out, to get players in. But again, for me, the problem with all of that is clubs should basically just agree something in principle privately behind closed doors, right? Let the players, and Nedim, you're a player, so if a player was given that peace of mind, like, listen, you know what? This is what we're doing because we know we're resigned to losing you. Okay, we're going to get top dollar for you. This is the prize. Agree it all in principle. Then nobody has to have that kind of ill feeling.

19:47But in terms of the best way to handle that, look, it looks like here a lot of guys, and they are all men, a lot of guys with egos wanting to be the one that feels they've got the best deal. That's what it looks like from the outside, right? Nobody wanting to feel they've been shafted or they should have, you know, I could have got more. I could have got, you know, it doesn't look like very good business. It looks like people. this is the problem it's it's all egos it's it's it's wanting to get one-upmanship on someone else and to be honest it's very unnecessary because for me if you know you have a player who doesn't want to be there like what Nedim said you know you gotta just be like okay you know what we're gonna let you go don't worry the deal's gonna get done okay we need to finalize a deal but it's gonna get done that all sounds so rational yeah well because if there was mutual respect between all these people managing these football clubs at the highest levels yeah they're all trying to get a little bit more money out of each other here and there but the reality is as you've seen now for example all these biggest transfers happening in the premier league gabby are all between clubs that deal with each other all the time so end of the day you know chelsea by morgan rogers for 117 million okay villa in return get ganache back with a loan with an obligation and then get you know nicholas jackson potentially back all of a sudden you know they're evens so the point is when you're dealing with each other on a regular basis, there doesn't need to be this drama.

21:12But for some reason, it always happens. I put a point before we start recording that the window itself can cause problems. Does a transfer window drive up prices, cause panic buying, make people behave in a way that, you know, these are all successful business people. They don't get to be where they are to spend billions of pounds on football clubs, right? If they're not clever. Unfortunately, not the directors of the clubs, maybe the owners of the clubs but the the people running the clubs for them are not in the way you're describing them unfortunately okay gabby i've got something here so when we were talking about say watkins and say all the transfers and so on like people were leaving their comments and they should always do that and somebody made the point that you said that we i said you guys i'm talking about us said we're missing the point because it's not about moving clubs it's the way he's treated villa teammates in emory and what i'll say from a teammate's perspective it's very easy to speak out against people who are wronging you as your teammates and when people don't it's because people tend to understand why something is happening so the teammate side of thing is there i think the loyalty that say some people are asking for towards like unai emery i think that's false in some ways because that's the same manager that will put you on a bench the same manager that will get you to say train with the kids and stuff like this and they have the power but you don't really have a relationship like that and also to drag all of us into this now because you know if we're going down we're all going down when you want a player to come to your club you do not care how they leave the previous one because you think they just want to be with us and like for example i know that say oh maybe i'm wrong here and safe could say but wissa told brentford that he wanted to leave and they should hold up their side of the bargain so that he can go to newcastle and now you know this is like what readily welcomed by newcastle say from a villa's perspective the way that Watkins is leaving is a disgrace but they don't know what Nicholas Jackson is doing at Chelsea to try and leave no totally well this is what was Isaac this is my point with Isaac at the time it was almost like do you you know you're going to have somebody who's disgruntled one day he might be disgruntled with you you know it doesn't matter because you're the you're the chosen one aren't you you know what I mean but it's I can't help but draw parallels with relationships, you know?

23:21Once a cheater, always a cheater. Anyway.

23:28And the other side of the coin, Ian Wright has come out and spoken about Martinelli and the way he's being treated.

23:35Ian Wright:Respect to Martinelli and the way Martinelli's being treated at the moment, it really makes me feel uncomfortable because he always gives 100%. I'm not saying that he's the greatest, you know, he's really come up with some big moments for Arsenal, some big games and scores some very important goals. And the way he's being treated at the end here, I know they might want him out and there's a lot of people might say, yeah, maybe it's time for him to move on. But there's ways of doing that and it should suit him as well, how he wants to lead. Sorry, by being treated, you talk about not being involved in the squad tonight?

24:05Ian Wright:Not being involved in the squad. Not being spoken to, doesn't know what's going on. We know this, do we? I don't know this. Yes, I do know this, yeah. He's been at Arsenal for how many years, done so well, you know, last season, helped them win the league. So the reality is, now that they're about to get 40 50 million for him and they found a fantastic replacement from the greek lad from club rouge obviously the way arsenal are kind of handling trying to push him out was a bit harsh and that's what ian wright is alluding to because in the end if for example the player is not actually thinking him to himself i don't really want to go to saudi arabia and get paid a fortune or i don't want to go to turkey i'd rather maybe try and you know go to liverpool or go to something like this.

24:45I don't know the players. I can't really tell you his kind of frame of mind. I'd take him on loan. I'd take him on loan. Newcastle. No, but that's the point, Gabby. You would take him on loan. And the point is, but Arsenal would never want to try and help Liverpool out, for example, or Newcastle or things like that. So I'm just saying, for me, what Ian Wright is alluding to is, okay, well, Arsenal are trying to push him out on their terms. And that's why I'm saying the loyalty factor and the way these players and people behave, you know goes both ways because when clubs want to push you out no one ever criticizes clubs but when the player is trying to leave because he's given good service or he's got an opportunity of a lifetime clubs want to hang on to these players for dear life and i don't get it i think these these are really good points and this again this is just my opinion it's based on say perspectives that i've had say when i was at man city and i essentially was with a group of people training with the under 18s even though i wanted to stay you know i felt i could have stayed and helped the team but instead you're being pushed to the side you're being pushed to the side because they're saying you have to leave so some of the in my in my opinion again like the idea of what is going on at football club is basically led for the most part by the whatever the football clubs say because they know the fan base will believe it a player wants to leave and if the player if the club wants to they can vilify that player to where they've got nothing going for them at all whatsoever but then if a player like martin by all accounts seems like he wants to stay somebody who's been a great servant for Arsenal, all of a sudden, no, he's not on the bench this week.

26:12Oh, yeah, he's not training with the team this week. Oh, yeah, he's very much on the outside. And they're trying to almost squeeze him to make the decision that he should leave. And if he doesn't leave, he's seen as a problem. Or say they'll be seen as a problem. Unless this window gets later and later and later. Again, narrative-wise, somebody could be asking, and you can have this conversation, why does he not want to leave? Does he not want to play football? Is he not this? Is he not that? Look, to be honest, I'm always trying to find a win-win for everybody. But the problem is there's always one part of the deal who is basically trying to not be aligned to just make it smooth.

26:46And that's the problem. And Saif, you are right in the middle of it all. So well done you. And I'm sure you've got a busy day with less than a week to go now, isn't it? So I'm sure there's lots of deals being done. Anybody coming to Newcastle from your stable? No, always gone. Let's see. No worries, thank you I think, Nadim, the bottom line is or the upsum as I kind of felt as we were talking there is that fans are always going to feel a little bit aggrieved that anybody wants to leave their sacred club and there's only certain ways you can do that that it feels good for both parties and doing it quickly, ripping off a plaster saying this is what we're getting for him, we're happy he's going here, he's happy within a 24 hour period is the only way that can be done with dignity once you start dragging things out it starts to get mucky it starts to get emotional it starts to get messy and it feels like everybody's losing yeah for sure but like when it gets dragged out why is it being dragged out it's usually being dragged out because of negotiations between the clubs not the player themselves but when there's a frustration that sort of gets thrown in there externally it tends to be towards the player obviously i'm coming from a position which is very much hugely pro player but i've seen so many different sort of setups from the players like Ben Chilwell who's forgotten about because he's training as part of Chelsea's like second group in a different training ground at different times to a player that has lots of capital at a football club and can essentially try and hold them to ransom because they want to go somewhere else you know because the players in the long term the club is still going to be there the players going to be gone the fans want to believe the club don't they they want to believe that the club is acting for the best interest and then they I think safe's gone now so it's maybe unfair to say this but they kind of believe that agents are going to do the best deal for themselves and their client and not necessarily for their clients i mean you know there was you know there's a lot of people that believe that agents you know kind of moving players on because it suits them to move the player on not so much the player yeah for sure there is lots of that and there are lots of agents who also represent say football clubs as well it's a very very like it's a very complicated space where from the outside it appears pretty black and white and i think that's one of my sort of issues with it as such is the way that things are spoken about sometimes is like certain people have more power than others like do you believe players have significant power in football now yeah i do why because i don't think they do because i think they're okay i think they've got financial power more than what sense to do what because they are valued properly right so i think they they as as commodities you know as as as products of the industry they are valued in the same way that a top Hollywood actress or a top music star is paid commensurate with the amount of bums they put on seats and the amount of sales they generate.

29:36And I think footballers are rewarded fairly. Financially, yes. Yeah, financially. And I think that comes with responsibility, doesn't it? You don't just have rights without responsibility. You don't have, you know, they have a duty to fulfil. And to fulfil what? The contract to play for that football club, obviously. And that's what Unai Emery is obviously feeling a grief that Oli Watkins has got a contract currently and he's not delivering his service. OK, so this is what you've done there is like you've narrowed it down specifically to like Oli Watkins and say that contract, that duty that you have.

30:08If there are like 25 players with that same duty, but 11 only have a player, then what happens to the other, say, 14 of them? You know, there are people who won't make squads, people like this. This is your contract. You have to do this to the best of your abilities. but you're surplus to requirements and to add to it again from my perspective and I know lots of people disagree with this. But Oli isn't surplus to requirements is he? Well how do we know? That's the thing because when we listen to Saif talk there was talk of Nicholas Jackson coming in. Is that a sign that he was going to be surplus to requirements?