Drive To Survive transformed F1 - how did they do it?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast.

0:05Gabby:Drive to Survive is the golden example of how to grow a sport by making it cool again. If we had a penny for every time, Gabby, that we've spoken about this show, the F1 Netflix series, we'd have a lot of money. We'd have a pound, I think, at least. We'd have at least a pound. Well, Formula One's global fan base has reportedly grown by hundreds of millions since Drive to Survive launched back in 2019. And this is really important. Three in four new fans are female. So a season eight of Drive to Survive airs. Has any other sports audience ever grown as fast or changed as much as F1? Thanks to Drive to Survive.

0:42Welcome to the Sports Agents.

0:52Gabby:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, Mark. Hi, Gabby. Busy Champions League week. Yeah, interesting one. I mean, I was desperate to get to St. James' Park to do a Champions League game this season. And it ended up being, as you know, a bit of a dead rubber because obviously Newcastle brought back a 6-1 scoreline from Carabag and then scored two goals in the first six minutes. So it was all over, really. But I loved being back in Newcastle. Got quite sentimental about it. Went for a walk in the morning over the bridges and came back and had breakfast with John Champion, the commentator.

1:23And I started crying. Did you? I got all teary. He didn't quite know what to do with me. I said, I love this place so much. So, yeah. But, yeah, I'm glad. I'm very, very glad that we, you know, have got as far as we've ever got in the Champions League and we're through to the last 16. But a bit more jeopardy next time would be lovely.

1:43Gabby:Well, you would have thought there will be jeopardy next time, wouldn't there? I mean, Barcelona or Chelsea in the last 16. By the time you're listening to this, if you're listening after Friday morning, you will know who they are facing. But, you know, after a very long league stage and this sort of, you know, playoff stage, we are set for some brilliant, brilliant ties. We could get, you know, Manchester City, Real Madrid again, couldn't we as well? We could, which I don't want. You don't want? No, because it feels like we've had it five times in the last. Yeah, but I also know why you don't want it.

2:18Gabby:Because the other option for Manchester City, because they're all in these brackets. So it's an either or for every team. their other option is Bodo Glimpse yes and you know how much I want to go there and that's genuine, it sounds like I'm being sarcastic I know, I know the only thing is it'll just be that bit warmer at which you know you want it as kind of cold and arctic circly as possible but I'd love to I loved the first leg of their game against Inter obviously last week was fantastic but I would love to go up there I've got a feeling we won't be going there though because there are so many English teams involved that you know I've got a feeling we'll be here Yeah, but, you know, if that's the Tuesday night and City are away to Bodo Glimt, look, I'll keep banging the drum as well on your behalf.

3:03Gabby:That has to be. As you say, there are others there that, you know, if it's Newcastle, Chelsea, well, that's just all Premier League. There's a chance if it is that. Well, not a chance. If it is that, Newcastle will play Chelsea three times in seven days. So, you know, it's not rare, is it, that picture? So Tottenham and Liverpool could get Atletico Madrid or Galatasaray. Well, you know, they've all... Liverpool have already played Galatasaray this season. Yeah, exactly. So Arsenal, it's Atalanta or Bayer Leverkusen. They've played Atalanta in the past, I'm sure. And probably Bayer Leverkusen. There you go, it's all set up.

3:34Gabby:There you go. It's all set up. I'm off to the Arctic Circle. Busy week for you as well, I know. Have you had your eye on England's performance in the T20? Do you know, I sort of have and I haven't really. And because it's interesting, isn't it? because we're going to talk drive to survive in a moment and a sports format and how it operates and you know how big it is how small it is the bubble it operates in and parts of this men's t20 world cup have been quite interesting you know some of the associate nations have done have done well and you can see improvement there but you know you had you had four groups of five to start with and then the top two go through and now you have two groups of four again and then you'll get down to semi-finals and a final so it's it's elongated and the other thing is it's also slightly skewed by who refuses to play who where and i'm basically talking india pakistan but there's no bangladesh there as well so there are all these sort of caveats and restrictions so actually in this super eight group two super eight groups you've got three of the teams that finish first in the group in one and three of the teams that finish runners up in another which is actually england's group so sometimes i just wonder about because of all the politics that comes in comes into it how sort of actually fair it is at the moment but having said all of that harry brook hit a century the other day for england against pakistan which was i mean out of this world it was just a sensational century he was moved up the order he battered three he's england captain he's had an awful lot of stick recently partly through how he gets out partly through various other things that have gone on off the field and being in a bar and so on and so forth before the ashes in a one day series and whatever so i was really pleased for him i was really really pleased for him and it was a it was a century to behold so i've met at the end of all of that i have quite mixed feelings about this tournament but england's men are in another t20 semi-final and they have a chance to win it remember you can catch up on previous episodes on youtube global player or wherever you get your podcasts hit subscribe or follow and leave a review for us if you can and you can get in touch on socials at the sports agents or email the sports agents at global.com So next up from Drive to Survive and the F1 movie with Brad Pitt, it's executive producer Ian Holmes and motorsport journalist Will Buxton, who hosts Global's new F1 podcast Up to Speed.

6:17Gabby:The Sports Agents. OK, let's talk all things Drive to Survive. Ian Holmes is with me in the studio, who's the exec producer. Will Buxton, friend of the podcast, is in L.A. Good morning to you, Will. Good morning. Let's get going then on the idea and kind of where it came from. And when you first, unless it was your idea, when you first heard the idea proposed, whether you could have foreseen what this would do to the fan base and popularity of F1? Yeah, there's a lot of stories about where this came from, but I think I'm in a position to tell you the real one. but essentially soon after our current owners liberty media bought formula one we were approached initially by another well-known streaming platform who had another brand of programming wanting to make some sort of behind the scenes type series focused on a team which tended to be that that was their sort of usp they've done it in football they've done it in other sports but essentially it was focused on video uh couldn't possibly comment um but uh but yeah focusing on a particular team.

7:15So we were talking to them, partly as a result of Liberty's recent purchase. They were keen to make sure that perhaps if we pursued this type of a programming option, the whole grid, all the teams were given sort of exposure. We suggested this to the company, the streaming company, and understandably, they had a brand, a particular style, and they weren't so keen. So we thought, well, let's talk to another well-known streaming platform, and netflix and you know we we suggested the idea of uh of something but but effectively covering the whole grid all of the teams and they were interested and that's that's effectively where

7:53Gabby:it originally came from it's interesting you mentioned the other streaming platform and their and their sort of behind the scenes documentaries i'm assuming we're talking all or nothing so there are some of those that are absolutely i have found fascinating when i've watched and some I think are have been terrible and tedious and I don't believe them for one second so what makes drive to survive the success it is I think there's a couple of very key components I think firstly we're dealing with a small cast 20 drivers now 22 going forward 10 team principals and to be fair when we were first talking about this I don't think anyone quite realize that the team principles would provide such interesting, compelling content, but effectively you're dealing with 30 people.

8:47Unlike, let's say, a football team or a bigger series, take something like the tennis, for example, or the PGA golf tour, or even the participants in something like the Tour de France, that's a much bigger, let's call it a cast. so it's quite a narrow cast which allowed the production to really focus on everyone in quite an in-depth way the other thing is that we spent a long time negotiating the contract both with Netflix and obviously with the teams without the team's buy-in it's impossible to make a lot of the filming takes place in in areas and at times that effectively belong to the teams we spent a lot of time you know discussing and negotiating what could be captured how it would be produced and what sort of rights the teams had in regard to reviewing and or requesting changes but what that effectively meant was that um the series i'd like to think anyway uh the series is is very honest unfiltered at times unfiltered um of course we have to respect you know you know these are big businesses and we absolutely don't want to bring anyone into disrepute.

9:56But at the same time, we wanted to have something that felt honest and, you know, times revealing some things that perhaps some wouldn't want. I think that is the key, Will, isn't it? That, you know, there are many reasons why it has been such a success. Season eight, congratulations and your involvement in it, Will, as well. And I'm sure you have felt that, you know, the growth in terms of what you do around F1 and have reaped the rewards of that because it has taken Formula One to a different audience as well that so many other sports will be completely jealous of. And yet, when you describe the cast there, because one of those audiences is women, the number of women watching F1, it's a very male-dominated cast, in terms of the drivers, in terms of the owners.

10:40But there is something of the drama, I think, that draws people in who haven't had any previous knowledge of the sport. They're able to kind of access it in a way that they can't access other sports. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, the growth of the sport has been, I mean, vast under Liberty Media's ownership. Drive to Survive has obviously been an absolutely massive part of that. And what's lovely is I remember being at some races and you'd get people sort of coming up and saying, oh, we love Drive to Survive. And I said, oh, great. You know, really, really glad you're enjoying it.

11:10I say, are you enjoying the current season of racing? and they'd say, some of them would say, oh, we're not watching racing. Don't spoil it for us. We're waiting for the next season of Drive to Survive. Some people watch it purely, purely as an entertainment series. But the vast majority have had it as this access point to a sport which we've loved for decades and it was about opening this sport up and making people feel included. And Ian's very modest about, obviously, his involvement in Liberty Media's real, I think, vision in bringing this documentary to the fold. You know, the word luck is used a lot about the success of Drive to Survive because of how it unfolded.

11:52But we all know, you know, in sport and in life, luck is where preparation meets opportunity. And if Liberty hadn't have prepared in the way that they did, if they hadn't put the groundwork in in the way that they did, then that opportunity, when it arose, which ostensibly was within COVID, And when people were locked down at home and had nothing to do and were really devoid of meeting new people, along came this series and this incredible cast of characters and this beautiful mode of storytelling. And people felt connected. And Liberty, at the same time, along with the FIA, had managed to work along a scenario where Formula One continued through the pandemic.

12:28So they were able to watch this series and then watch the racing. And that created this groundswell for this series, in which suddenly all sports said, we need a drive to survive. It wasn't, we need a sports documentary. We need a drive to survive. And it became this guy word.

12:43Gabby:It must get mentioned at least twice a month on this show when we talk to other sports and what they're trying to do and what they're trying to grow. But interestingly, Will, just going back to the point of those people who've said, well, we're watching the documentary, but we're not watching the racing. How is the sport measuring its growth in terms of eyeballs on the racing? I get how the success of Drive to Survive is measured through Netflix. But how is F1 itself measuring the rise in its audiences? I think that's probably a question for Ian, who will know far better than I. He's nodding knowingly.

13:21Yeah, the real world consequences. But I think you only need to look at the investment that's taken place in Formula One over the last decade and in particular over the last eight years. You look at the influx of sponsors, particularly those who've come from the United States, which we know is is one of the areas where Drive to Survivors had its greatest burst of popularity. You know, that wouldn't have happened, I don't think, without this series and without the global kind of magnifying lens that it's that it's given the sport. Yeah, I mean, we obviously track our data, track our fans. you can't always tell exactly why someone sits down and watches you know if they do watch but we we gather a certain amount of information um it might be something as simple as understanding you know asking them to to uh to explain why they why they watch a race but what we what we have seen um in particular and it's already been mentioned is um the particular increase in fans in the u.s big market where we were very very small and we're still rather modest but um certainly a lot bigger than we were but drive to survive we know has been particularly impactful in that market and also younger viewers we want to probably the only mainstream sport whose audience is getting younger and more female skewed we know for a fact that drive to survive has been not the only thing but important do the traditional fan base do they mind the newbies that's a very good question you know look there's been a certain amount of speculation about the series and you know is it Is it made up?

14:47Are there stories that are coaxed out? Some of them, it does at times appear, wow, this is fortunate. This is very lucky. Is the dog wagging the tail? Our position on this, and it's been fairly well documented, there's nothing that's made up. Nonetheless, there is a certain amount of screen time where a narrative has to get told, which may be a narrative that takes place from, we're about to go racing next week and we'll finish in December. So it could be a 10-month narrative, but it needs to be told in half an hour. So in order to tell that story, it needs to be edited accordingly. Nonetheless, the story is the story.

15:27But back to your question about the existing fans. Yes, they watch it, for sure. They may have different opinions on it. I mean, one thing that we say sort of internally or amongst the teams is that the series is not for the people that occupy the paddock or work in the sport. it's really designed to be as inclusive as possible and therefore by definition you know it requires some explanation as to what the sport is you know it's a complex sport now maybe there's some elements of that where if you're an established knowledgeable fan you might find you don't want to feel like you're yeah being kind of told how to suck eggs exactly so there's

16:03Gabby:there's a delicate balance um on that front when it comes to the stories then ian do you like you can't arrive in you said you were flying to melbourne tomorrow i think you can't just arrive in Melbourne and start shooting and hope that stories develop or do you or do you have a sense going into a new season of right well actually we want to focus on Adrian Newey at Aston Martin so so that whatever happens that will be a story okay so I don't want to overplay my role in in in deciding the the narrative um but but uh essentially uh box to box um who make the series with our input and Netflix's input they will spend time pre-season and at various points during the season trying to ask themselves and the teams exactly that question trying to come up with some some ideas of what um what the narrative might be for them across the year you can see it in the sense of um at a particular race they will have a crew that's perhaps embedded with a particular team because they're planning on following a narrative they'll also have one or two crews that are floaters that will be able to pick up on anything else that is going on that perhaps wasn't foreseen before the event took place so um you know you mentioned a good point you know adrian newey's car the new aston martin that's his first car for aston you know so that in itself would be an element of a story i mean it's important to note that the story is that you know the series is not about engines and tire compounds and things like that but for sure just from a logistics point of view that there has to be some some ideas beforehand um and those things that you know maybe the elephant in the room here those big stories that break you know that could be quite controversial and scandalous even are they now an opportunity for you where previously you might have thought differently about those things and the reputation of the sport do they now look like opportunity in short yes um using the word opportunity um not necessarily sometimes it's a negative connotation but look it's about what what we quickly realized for the series is that people are interested in people.

18:12And I think you've seen that all the way through the series in that some of the most followed, liked, enjoyed personalities aren't necessarily the people that are winning championships and races. You know, there's plenty of examples, and probably someone like Gunter Steiner would be one of those who, let's face it, before Drive to Survive, although he's been involved in the sport in lots of different... Wasn't particularly well known. Yeah, no. and some of the drivers that are perhaps lent in more than others. But people are interested in people. It's a man at the moment. It would be great if we have some female drivers, but it was a young man in his late teens being given an opportunity.

18:48There's a huge amount of pressure on him. That in itself is a story. With sensitivity, of course, we're going to pick up on elements sort of away from the track. And Formula One has always had that.

18:57Gabby:Yeah. And that's actually what I was going to say to you, Will, was it's very easy to go, well, since we've had drive to survive, you know there's plenty more soap opera for want of a better term within the sport and then actually if you know if you know the history of the sport all you have to do is go well prosenna that didn't have drive to survive did it but that was i mean could you imagine oh my god could you imagine yeah is it possible to do a prequel it is with ai you know what's in the vaults ian you know what's in the vaults it probably is possible to do a to do a prequel the sports agents The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman So much of what makes this show a success, I think, and as Ian has said, you know, is people.

19:47And ultimately it's their stories and telling their stories. That's what's made this thing a success because people are hungry to know more about the drivers. I got involved with the sport 25 years ago and politics was a huge part of the sport. what was going on behind closed doors with Bernie Eccleston and Max Mosley and how they ran the sport and how the teams kind of faced that. And at periods where maybe the racing wasn't as exciting as it is today, politics was the headlines for Formula One. We don't have so much of that these days. It's very much the on-track action and the on-track personalities that have created what Drive to Survive is.

20:25And Ian's very modest, you know, but when you look at this current season, there's a number of the storylines in there, which, you know, had to be thought about before the season started. You know, they followed the rookie drivers. You know, we knew before the season started that Jack Doohan was on thin ice and potentially only had about five races to prove his worth in Formula One. And so they made sure that they were with Jack on the weekend where potentially it was going to be and ultimately ended up being his last race. You know, that kind of thing doesn't happen by chance. there has to be some planning that goes into that and I think they do a great job of it.

20:57Gabby:And following on from that then, in that situation, if I was Jack Doohan, I'm not sure, Ian, I'd really want you around with all due respect. And I mean, I have to say, I couldn't think of anything worse than having a camera pointed at me whilst trying to do my job. I know that sounds ridiculous, but to give you some context, they did a behind-the-scenes... He's not on social media. I know, but they did a behind-the-scenes It needs a match of the day about two weeks into the new season. And whenever the camera was anywhere near in the office, I just stopped talking in the hope that I wouldn't be in this documentary.

21:29Gabby:Anyhow, has anybody... The host hoped he's not part of the show. I know. Did you have to convince people? Did people say no? The buy-in of everybody is... I mean, is it financial? Is that what it boils down to? There's always a financial angle. They don't get paid for Drive to Survive per se. It doesn't harm with brands, does it, though? Yes, with a broader interest. I mean, Ferrari and Mercedes famously didn't participate in Series 1, which is fair enough. They didn't really know what to expect. They were both that year involved in the battle for the championship and wanted to focus on that. They very quickly agreed to participate in Series 2.

22:10And whilst I can speculate what might have gone on behind closed doors, but I would imagine that their partners were quite keen to enjoy that sort of extra exposure. Well, isn't it? You know, you're on season eight. So anybody coming into the sport understands this is almost part. You can't see life without it almost. And as Chep has said, we talk about this fairly regularly when we talk to other sports who are trying to look at ways that they can grow their audiences, the ways they can develop their competitions. And rugby had its opportunity with a Netflix series. And, you know, knowing some of the stories behind that just didn't give enough access, I think, in terms of making it a success.

22:45and I'm sure is absolutely kind of kicking itself in how that ended up, you know, being dropped for the second season. Other sports are desperate, aren't they, Will, to replicate this kind of growth and especially with young audiences and female audiences. So your advice then, you're advising another sport on how they can take a drive to survive and make their sports grow. Don't do it. Don't do it. Seriously, though, because you can't copy it. and people have people have tried and and people have failed and and Ian made the point earlier what led to the incredible global rise of Formula One yes Drive to Survive was a part of it but there was so much else going on at the time Liberty's push into the digital domain and making sure that eyeballs were on the sport across digital platforms was a huge part of the sports growth which ran hand in hand with Drive to Survive Drive to Survive itself as Ian said only really found success between seasons two and three at a time when, you know, COVID happened and the sport was continuing.

23:45All of those circumstances combined together to create this incredible effect that you cannot replicate. So if you just try to copy and paste it, it's not going to work. Racing drivers seem to me, I've never worked in Formula One, but on watching, you know, the coverage, racing drivers seem unbelievably compliant and willing to talk at any point in their competitive day. Well, you know, in terms of accessing them...

24:12Gabby:Unless it's going very badly for... Every Lewis Hamilton interview I saw last season, he didn't look massively compliant. No, but they still have to do the interviews, right? So even though they don't want to, they're not shirking their media responsibilities. So they've been used to that. It's been part of their growing up within the sport. They understand. It's not like in a football team where you can hide if it's not your thing. You can not be the one that's spoken to. Drivers, generally, they are intelligent, articulate. They've worked with the media probably for many, many years, despite being young.

24:45We're lucky enough to race in some attractive places. The backdrops are good. And there is this sort of travelling circus, to coin a cliche, they all rock up, let's call it Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday, and everyone is together in this paddock, in this working environment, for three or four days. So if it's a game of football, I don't know how many hours before the game that a team typically turns up, but they turn up, they get changed, they go and play and leave. You know, I think there are some raw ingredients for our sport that lends itself to making this series, you know, particularly attractive.

25:19And football doesn't need it per se, but has had some good examples. And obviously Wrexham is a great example of that, isn't it? In terms of, you know, apparently if you have a Wrexham story on the BBC Sport homepage, you know, they get, even when they were a couple of divisions lower, they get a ridiculous amount of hits compared to other teams in the division because of the popularity now globally of Wrexham. Yeah and I think that says it all. Obviously they've got some very well-known or one in particular well-known owner but at the same time it goes back to that sort of storyline of the sort of underdogs if you like this team that has been promoted on a regular basis.

25:56And again the cast of characters are not necessarily the people you think at the very beginning of a story like that might become the stars.

26:02Gabby:Are you thinking what next Ian in terms of what the next step is for growth? Or are you thinking Drive to Survive can keep growing the sport because the storylines will always keep changing? I think it would be foolish not to be thinking of what next. I don't think when we set out on this path, we had any expectation that we would be eight series in. You know, we will continue to sort of put our efforts into Drive to Survive. there are some things that we have been discussing about how we can perhaps freshen things up change change some approaches in the last couple of episodes couple of series we tried uh in series seven for the singapore grand prix we had five five drivers pretty much mic'd up for for the duration and they filmed most of the content themselves so it's a slightly different approach we've done tried to do something similar for the series that's about to drop in las vegas with um Four team principals, something kind of similar.

27:04But what is another interesting genre? I mean, completely different opportunity, but we were fortunate enough to enjoy working with Apple and Jerry Bruckheimer for the F1 movie, and Brad Pitt, of course. Would he make it, do you think, a younger Brad Pitt? Who knows? Who knows? He likes his bikes. Okay. You said nothing, which means that he wasn't that good. No. He loved, by all accounts, I mean, he loved the driving. Okay. Absolutely loved the driving. Was he any good? He was. He was. Could he have made it, do you think? He was really good. I have no idea. Will said he's really good. Obviously, when they started shooting, they started shooting the day before the SAG strike hit.

27:47And so then they had to kind of pause for a year. And Brad went off and just started driving F2 cars during the strike with a team in Formula 2 called Carlin. And the engineers and the mechanics and everybody on Carlin said, like, Brad could legitimately jump into Formula Two right now and be pretty much midfield. Like, he's not going to be winning races, but he'd be mid-grid. He'd be competitive.