Frank out, Dyche gone, Tuchel commits - Are football's power brokers panicking?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. Well, it's been a busy 48 hours since our last show. Spurs decided to sack head coach Thomas Frank after just eight months in charge. What did he tell us on this show? For sure, if I ever got the offer from Bigger Club and I decided to go there, it'd probably not make my life better.

0:25and then it's about midnight on Wednesday news broke that Nottingham Forest had sacked their third manager this season Sean Dyche losing his job after just 114 days if it carries on at this rate only Thomas Tuchel will still be in a job in 2028 welcome to the Sports Agents

0:53The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Just me today. Gabby is ill. The rain in Rome when she was covering the men's Six Nations has done for her, although she will be on tomorrow's episode because we got her and husband Kenny in the studio. We talked Six Nations, Calcutta Cup and also Valentine's Day in the Logan household. You can get in touch with us on our socials at The Sports Agents, or you can leave us a comment below or email us, thesportsagentsatglobal.com. And when you're watching or listening, please subscribe or follow and leave a review. Next up, an insight into the chaos of Premier League boardrooms at the moment.

1:39The Sports Agents. so with us for this uh Jay Harris the Athletics Spurs reporter Christian Perslow co-host of the football boardroom with Henry Winter which is well worth a lesson plenty of experience in football boardrooms as well Liverpool Chelsea Aston Villa to name a few and and that's the first question Christian really just with Dyche and Frank and others before established Premier league clubs are panicking aren't they because it's not going to be the three promoter clubs who are going back down no i think you're right um certainly in the case of evangelos marinakis appears to have decided that despite having hired somebody who probably the three of us would view as the last of a breed of so-called survival specialists he clearly thinks that sean wasn't going to guarantee survival and has pulled the trigger, the stakes being so high for a team that since coming out of the championship, and we all know how long that took, has suddenly stalled in what looked like great progress.

2:49And of course, the risks from a business point of view of finding themselves back in the championship would be absolutely terrible. And so he simply doesn't think he can take that risk at all. And looking at the table, this isn't a minor risk. It's a major risk with, of course, the added emotive element that I'm sure you, like me, are fascinated by. The man that he fired at the start of the season, who most people would say had done a brilliant job, has gone to West Ham. And although it hasn't quite caught fire for Nuno, I feel watching them that they're really improving and that must be driving Maranakis nuts.

3:32Do you think that same fear, Jay, is what prompted Spurs to act or are there wider issues as well? I think it's definitely one of the reasons why Spurs wanted to act. You know, the CEO Vinay Ben Kateshim, he put some programme notes just before the West Ham United game and he spoke about this is a project which needs time. Spurs are trying to change the culture and they thought Thomas Frank was the right person to do that project. But the fact is they've won two of their last 17 games in the Premier League. The home form is horrendous. I think they've only won five times at home in the Premier League since November 2024.

4:07So it also covers Ange Postacoglu's reign. And they're only five points above West Ham United. And as Christian just pointed out, West Ham picked up a little bit of form over the last couple of weeks. They've beaten Spurs on their own patch. The relationship between the fans and Thomas Frank and the rest of the club is just at a complete low point. I was there on Tuesday evening and they were singing You're Getting Sacked in the Morning. They were chanting for Pochettino. You know, in away games, they've chanted Boring, Boring Tottenham. So I think the sort of obvious option is to go for an interim who is a club legend and has a connection with the club.

4:38Because the most important thing is to sort of unite the fan base and unite the players because it's just completely broken. At the end of the game on Tuesday evening, there were maybe seven players who stayed on the pitch and the rest went into the dressing room. and they were just staring at the floor or had their shirts over their face. So you just need somebody who's going to come in, bring a bit of a buzz. One thing which Thomas Frank upset the Spurs fan base about was in his first press conference. He said that they were going to lose games and he spoke about Arsenal. Now the coffee cup, the infamous coffee cup incident didn't help him whatsoever.

5:11So I think Spurs are just looking at it thinking for the second year in a row, we find ourselves in the same situation staring towards the bottom of the Premier League and the most obvious change to do is to get rid of Thomas Frank. Whether it's the right one, we'll find out. Aside from what was happening on the pitch in the defeats, what was going on behind the scenes? Because as you say, he was brought in to be a culture changer, to transform the place. I think one of the biggest issues that Thomas Rank encountered was a lack of discipline within that Spurs squad. You go all the way back to his very first competitive game in charge, the UEFA Super Cup against PSG, and he reveals to the press conference, and I was there that day in Italy, that he Pissouma has been dropped from the squad for timekeeping.

5:53Now, from what I understand, not necessarily just with Pissouma, but other players within the squad, that was an issue which kept rearing its head over time. You look at some of Christian Romero's actions on and off the pitch, whether it's firing shots at the board or getting three suspensions this season for red cards and accumulating yellows. And it's very clear that there's a lack of leadership in that dressing room. And that's something which you can't do overnight. You have to purge certain characters from the squad. It takes multiple transfer windows. I think it's a big reason why they signed Conor Gallagher in January.

6:24When he arrived, you should see the way Frank described him. It was almost as if he's a great person first and he's a good footballer second. We know they wanted Andy Robertson and that also made sense. You look at some of the players whose Spurs have lost over the last three, four years. Kane, Eric Dier, Hugo Lloris, Song Hyung-min. Players who'd been at the club for a long time and were senior pros. The only one who probably is still around is Ben Davies. So I think a discipline issue and a lack of leadership is something which Frank really struggled with. Do you think, Christian, that there are different levels of clubs and whatever a manager's credentials and ability and qualities are, that they might not fit in in certain areas?

7:07And let me give you an example, because you were instrumental in the appointment of Unai Emery at Aston Villa. And Unai Emery is big on detail, hour and a half meetings, two-hour meetings with players. But he went into Aston Villa and a squad that were ready to learn and ready to sit in two-hour meetings. Arguably, if he'd gone into Manchester United or Liverpool Or he was at Arsenal The perception of those players and those clubs maybe Is that they're too big to sit in two-hour meetings Well, I think there's a couple of aspects to that that strike a chord So you're really talking about the context in which a manager arrives And I think that's a very fair point And of course, that style that you refer to, which Unai is well known for and which I watched with my own eyes for nearly nine months, is something that works when you're winning and quickly doesn't work when you're losing.

8:11And that would be true whether you were with players at Real Madrid or at Brentford. So let's be clear, you know, players really do want to hang around for two hours in meetings. But when it is allied to a dramatic improvement in performance and results, it becomes a sort of messianic. This guy knows what he's on about, he's a guru and it's working. And I'm very struck, I'm very proud by the fact, I'm very struck by the fact that you're absolutely right. You know, most of the core players at Villa are players that Unai inherited and just look at the transformation in results that he has garnered over time, got off to a great start and has never really missed a beat.

8:55And you're right, there would be other clubs who might think that wouldn't work. I don't think that would be the primary factor in them passing on him, by the way. It has been amazing, hasn't it, that he hasn't really been linked with clubs like Man United. That's really puzzled me because on any objective measure of his achievements since he went to Villa and prior, you know, he seems to me to be obviously a tier one manager. But I also think with Thomas, which was really behind your question and Jay's point about a culture change, that is not a, you know, one window, two window, three window rebuilding.

9:34It's going to take years, not months. Vinay and Johan, who are really now in charge of that program, are both really experienced professional people who exude patience and professionalism and will have known that Thomas was taking on a really, really dramatic, radical and long overdue broad culture change. and they would not want to have lost him this early. But the other side of the coin is, of course, fans. And I saw a lot of empty seats in that magnificent stadium. I've heard terrible fan reactions for not just the other night, but for a couple of months it's felt like Spurs fans weren't having Thomas.

10:20And so at the end of the day, you can have your culture change, you can have your long-term strategic plan, You can have the most professional management team in the world, but when results don't happen and fans aren't having a manager, I'm afraid you have no choice. And I don't think they had a lot of choice. Even though they didn't have a lot of choice, Jay, they haven't half got a dilemma now about the direction they go in, the type of manager they are looking for. Because let's be honest, like several clubs, really, they have gone in every, not far off, every possible direction they could have gone in over the last decade.

10:57Where do they go now? It's a really good question. And I think just look at what's happened over the last 24 hours. And I think it gives you a sense of Spurs don't really know what the next step is. We'd seen in the past when Daniel Levy was in charge, he pretty much always had a replacement lined up whenever he got rid of a manager. And at the moment, we don't know who's going to be the interim. We don't know whether Thomas Frank's backroom staff are leaving with him or whether they're staying at the club. There's just a sense of confusion. I think long-term what Spurs want to do, and you have to look at their signings to sort of uncover this, is invest in the younger players.

11:32And that's something Johan Langer has been very good at identifying. So Wilson Odover, who unfortunately suffered an ACL injury on Tuesday night, but Archie Gray, Lucas Bergwahl, even Radu Dragasin, Destiny Adoggy, Xabi Simons. Players who are in their very early 20s or even in their teens to who you can build a core around. But you can't do that overnight. You need to give those players time and space to grow. I found it quite interesting what Ange Postacoglu said on the overlap about the fact that Spurs are, you know, a big sick club, but they don't act that way. And I believe Thomas Frank told people that privately as well.

12:08So I find it very interesting that two head coaches, even though they've got different playing philosophies, they're both feeling as if they weren't backed or supported in the same way. And until Spurs address that issue, they're just going to repeat the same mistakes. And I know I just spoke about them focusing on slightly younger talent, but let's use Antoine Semenya as a prime example. Lots of people talk about Spurs missing out on him in the January transfer window, but I don't think that's right. I think they missed out on him last summer when they were haggling over the money a little bit.

12:37that is when they should have acted decisively they they should have got him in before he signed that new contract with Bournemouth because by the time you're trying to sign him in January and the season's already teetering on the brink and Semenya has a choice of Man City or Spurs we know what choice he's going to make every single day of the week so there's lots of things they need to fix. Was that the same with Eberich Eze in the summer as well or do you cut them a bit more slack on that because once Arsenal came calling he was never going to turn them down? The issue with the Eze situation is that Arsenal didn't really act until Kai Havertz suffered that injury and Havertz suffered that injury in the opening game against Manchester United, if I've got my facts right.

13:13So there was clearly a one-week, two-week window where Spurs had been decisive enough and acted quickly enough. They maybe could have progressed further. now because much longer than that much longer than that they were in for him before the season started and that deal would have been done and dusted if they hadn't been arguing the last cent there you go and of course then events kick in you get an injury Arsenal weren't in the picture when Spurs had the front row seat on that deal Mark wow and by the way it was a different regime let's be clear there is an element of being slightly biased here knowing Thomas but it does whilst I'm sure Thomas in hindsight will look at things he could have done better it does highlight that this is not all down to one man?

13:53No, most definitely not. That's what Jay's alluding to with culture change. It's such a difficult world culture, but it's rather appropriate here because it's so broad. It's so all-encompassing. The Spurs-y word always crops up and it's a silly word, but it does go to the heart of one of the cultural aspects, which is years and years and years of just not quite having a winning mentality, being happy with being seen as part of a big six with, you know, excellent financial results and a wonderful stadium. But in reality, a team that hasn't really threatened to win apart from one, you know, Champions League final near miss.

14:32And so changing that winning mentality, changing the approach to investment. And I'm sure Ange is alluding to that. And I think he's right. And Thomas probably would agree that messing around on Semenyo for the sake of three or 4 million you know Man City didn't mess around this January my guess on that deal is a is not just giving Crystal Palace 20 million pounds for a footballer with five months left but probably giving the footballer you know 10 to 20 million pounds in signing bonus and 300 grand a week and Mark Gahey straight in the first team that's what decisive clubs that win trophies do and that's the culture change I think that the Lewis next generation have promised but frankly haven't yet delivered.

15:17Can they be decisive in their new manager search then, Jay? I'll come on to Forrest in the wider landscape in a second, but can Spurs be decisive in where they're going to go or are there so many moving parts that it's going to take time? You're taking the words out of my mouth. Look at the change that's happened at that club over the last 12 months from playing staff, coaching staff, medical department, senior executive level. They've still got a new head of medical who's joining at some point. I think they're taking a director of football operations from the City Football Group. There are so many moving parts and still there's, until there's any sense of stability, I find it struggle to think that they're going to progress in or have genuine progress.

15:58I'll go back to what I said earlier about the fact that Thomas Frank has been sacked and we just don't know what is going to happen next. Yes, they've got an extended break before they play Arsenal. And yes, the players are currently on holiday. And so I don't think they'll be back at training until next week but there should be some sense of of what is going to happen now and we just have we're just completely in the dark and I think that just underlines it's a club at the moment which is just lurching from from one sort of mistake to another what happened with Fabio Peratici is another example of that Spurs just need to sort of sort themselves out and accept the fact that there's going to be a period of a few years when they need to fix themselves the moving parts are also in the wider market aren't they Christian and if you were if If you were in the exec of a Premier League club looking for a manager now, and there may be, you know, there are interims here and there as well.

16:48And you have the World Cup that we've talked about many times and managers who will be out of contract. All of that moving landscape means it's a fine balance between being decisive and being patient. Yes, well put. Or in football speak, interim and permanent. and for lots of reasons, although there is one less big beast wandering the jungle in the summer with this morning's news about Thomas Tuchel. By the way, he would have absolutely been on any shortlist at Spurs. I know Vinay well and Vinay always liked the manager. So, but let's be clear. If Manchester United surveyed the scene over a month ago after Amarine's exit and concluded that there simply wasn't a selection of permanent managers for the long-term mid-season available or willing to take Man U and therefore went down the caretaker route, I think it's absolutely certain that Spurs will do the same thing now for the same reason.

17:46And I think it's a much harder sell right now for an elite manager because who wants to take relegation risk on their CV, whether you're in work or out of work? There might be the odd exception to that, the names that have been bandied around, Jay, like Deserby, who's come out of Marseille this week, you know, might just take a chance for, but not for a six month job. He'd take a chance on a permanent role. And if I'm Spurs, I want to look at a few others in the summer. So I'm quite certain they'll be scratching around for a caretaker in the Carrick mould. It isn't as obvious as it was with Manu, who had Carrick and Oli kind of virtually ready to play off against each other.

18:28And they did. But nevertheless, they'll be scratching around for an interim solution because I think they want the breathing space to look at the broader market in the summer as Mark alludes to and it's not obvious is it Jay that that person no I don't think so the the one who jumps out I guess is maybe Robbie Keane because he's at Ferret Varos but he's doing a really good job there would you want to to sacrifice that permanent job there for what is essentially taking on a risk and a gamble at Spurs Ryan Mason has obviously been interim head coach a couple of times he ventured out on his own at the beginning of the season with West Brom it didn't work out so he's out of work at the moment and then we should probably mention Johnny Heitinger who only became an assistant coach to Thomas Rank I think three or four weeks ago and now he finds himself in a situation where he doesn't know if he's staying or going and if he stays maybe he's a potential interim.

19:18That has the feel of the most likely if not the most exciting option given that he was clearly brought in almost by others not necessarily by Thomas if you see what I mean the fact he survived and on Robbie I just took a look this morning I mean let's be clear if you were Robbie Keane I'm not totally on top of basic and bonus structure pay in the Hungarian football league but it will be a fraction of even low-level Premier League money. I think if Robbie could be persuaded on a, you know, basic, reasonable, basic, significant bonus for survival and maybe each place he moves up the league, real money, and you get a shot at the real job if you do brilliantly, I'd think about that really seriously if I was Robbie Keane.

20:05And I would be exploring that, Mark, to answer your question if I was in post I'd be having those conversations with Robbie as an established as a club legend loved by all who's doing a decent job albeit in an extremely marginal league in European football I'd be exploring that option just in the Carrick vein and we will have more from Jay and Christian after the break the sports agents

20:36the sports agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman Just going back to the England news today, is that simply who blinked first out of Tuchel or the FA, Christian? Or do you think that's been in the pipeline? Because all the indications were just till the end of the World Cup and then reassess? You said to me as I walked in, I don't often get really shocked in football, but I am rather shocked by that development. And I'm shocked because it breaches the most important managerial principle I subscribe to, which is you make decisions when you need to. And I don't believe they needed to. I really liked the rather pure and extreme form of a pay for performance assignment.

21:21Take an elite club manager, get him to agree to relatively modest base pay versus what he'd earn in the club game. But with a massive bonus for delivering the only measure of success, which is winning the World Cup. We've lost finals. That box has been ticked. We've been to quarters. We've been to semis in the Worlds too. So the only basis on which you could say Tuchel's a success if he wins the World Cup, he was going to win handsomely for the country and win handsomely in his pocket if he did so. I really like that deal. And I would have waited to see how it played out. So blinking because in some weird way you want to make sure you might have him after the World Cup and you're worried about clubs.

22:01We don't want him after the World Cup if we go out in the quarterfinals. And now the cost of getting rid of him, and we've seen this movie before with Capello. I'm really, really surprised and yet feels to me like it just didn't need to be done. Whatever Thomas's people would say, if you were Thomas, this is absolutely fantastic. But I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense. And a final one here on how you then go about your next manager. And it's interesting where Spurs are. Nottingham Forrester are in this similar situation. And Sean Dyche was brought in because they were in this battle at the bottom.

22:38And yet you could argue their squad is much better than a battle at the bottom. And in fact, if you look at Spurs, the same thing, really. Look at some of their attacking options. They shouldn't really be in a relegation battle. So when you appoint a manager at this stage of the season, or even when Forrest appointed Daish, are you appointing for the situation the team is in or the squad you have? Because they're two very different things, aren't they? Well, I think it's fascinating because Sean gives you the opportunity to really ask me that question because he is so associated with, shall we say, a pragmatic approach to results.

23:17And rather, I think sometimes a bit unfairly because, you know, your resources dictate that to some extent. But he certainly wasn't hired with a view to the long term or with a view to sexy football or any of the above. and it's rather surprising, I think, that it hasn't quite happened in terms of really moving up the league quickly. But where they are today, let's be really clear, both Spurs and Forrest, I mean, it's so interesting, people are forgetting Spurs are still in the most lucrative Champions League in history, where every round is worth 10 million, where their prestige, they could get a couple of round wins there And wow, that is compensating for the terrible position in the Premier League in terms of the finances, Mark and Jay.

24:03But I am absolutely certain that if I am the Spurs regime today or Evangelos Marinakis today, my focus is on somebody who will guarantee me Premier League football next season. And I'm not too fussed about how they do it. which is brilliant because Spurs are in exactly the same situation but I very much that no but that's exactly it Jay can you imagine if they were right we just it we just need somebody to keep us up I mean the messaging in these things and and the the culture of it brings us back to the culture of a club is fascinating whoever comes in for these final few games of the season needs to sit in that press conference and say Spurs is about attacking football entertaining the fans we're not worried about relegation we'll be fine and then in the summer we'll appoint someone else we'll have stability that's what they need to do but the first league game is the north london derby and the next one is a is a way to to fill them at craven cottage you're obviously having a good season it's um it's tricky for sure but the first north london derby was when it felt like it turned didn't it because they were set up in such a way of of basically to try and not get hammered your fans of any club in their derby do not want their team set up just to not get hammered?

25:15I think it's the week before, or maybe it was two weeks before, which actually is the real, the turning point, that Chelsea game, because it was the third year in a row when they've lost to Chelsea at home. I think it was 0.05 or 0.07 XG, which was then even lower against Arsenal. But that was the game where Mickey van der Ven and Jed Spence walked past Thomas Frank. And that was the sign of, oh, hang on a second. There could be genuine tension between the players and the coach, the players and the fans. Yes, Arsenal exacerbated that situation and the fact it was Eze who scored a hat-trick made it quite comical.

25:49But I think the real turning point or the sliding doors moment is that game against Chelsea.

26:05That's it. Thanks for listening. Gabby back tomorrow. if you have any thoughts on today's show get in touch on the email thesportsagentsatglobal.com you can find us on all our social media channels or use the link in the show notes and all the past episodes on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your pods thank you very much for listening The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman

26:32This has been a Global Player original production