Have Premier League academies sold their soul?

14:51Sam Wallace:wonder whether we have a lot of and this is what some people will say a lot of talented players who can all do the same thing and may want to play all in similar positions has that seeped into academy football and academy coaching yes i would i would agree i've spoken to colleagues across the

15:13Temisan Williams:board at different academies and one of the things that actually has been coming out is the number nine position that we feel that a lot of players coming in want to be on the ball so they want to be a number six they want to be a number 10 but we don't have as many number nines we see coming through and so or centre-halves centre-halves especially left-sided centre-halves so actually when I was at Arsenal we had a stipulation that we needed to try to produce left-sided centre-backs and of course you see Aidan Heaven who ended up getting bought by Man United but he was an example of one who ended up coming through the academy going back to the finances of it and why it's kind of particularly reared its head of late.

15:54Temisan Williams:You look at somebody like Jake Ramsey making the move to Newcastle and that is a homegrown kid obviously come through the academy there and players at the club including McGinn coming out and saying look don't you know don't kind of pile in on him. We would love to keep him. He's you know he's this club through and through but he's got to go because they need to balance the books and he's so valuable as a homegrown player. And it kind of struck me. I mean I'm a Newcastle fan. We've had it ourselves. Elliot Anderson went to Nottingham for us to do the same thing effectively. And then you think, well, what are these rules for?

16:23Temisan Williams:Because we're trying to, you know, on the one hand, make it fair across a whole league that you don't have clubs just having a lot more money spun on place. But clearly they do because their income, Manchester United, who might well sell Kobe Maynou, so this is the longest question ever. But the point is, is it fair? Is it helping? Does it help Aston Villa, you know, in terms of their competition in the league? Does it help their fans to feel that they're losing homegrown players? I don't know if we've got the best system in place at the moment to create that fairness. If the clubs, I say smaller, I mean smaller income clubs, are having to sell these homegrown players to balance the books.

16:59Temisan Williams:As you've just explained, Jacob Ramsey, Elliot Anderson, these are all examples of players who've been sold. But I don't think... Because it's pure profit, I should just say. That's why they're so lucrative. Colin Gallagher, you could put it on the back of their shirt, it's pure profit. I mean, it's become the new phrase. I would say that it's very difficult to disentangle the senior, for want of a better word, the first team squad from the academy because you have asked clubs to pump millions and millions of pounds into their academies. I mean, that's in the Premier League handbook. You know, they have to invest a certain amount.

17:34Temisan Williams:So for them to kind of unhook that from their PSR compliancy is going to be very, very difficult. And it is changing the culture. I mean, clearly Chelsea are at the forefront of the trading model. But I mean, I grew up, as did Chappas, you know, in the 1980s, as did you go in the 1980s football, where basically you change one player a year. And transfers were really quite rare. They were big events. And now the clubs, I would describe Chelsea sometimes as really like a portfolio of investments. So when they sign a player, they are always looking at what's the next market for him. They will not sign Garnaccio at a price where they don't believe they can sell him.

18:14Temisan Williams:Where's next for Garnaccio? Probably a Napoli or an Atletico Madrid if it doesn't work out at Chelsea. But then they want to make sure they get£10 million on top of that, whatever they decide to take. Well, even if they just clear it, even if they come out virtually even. So the whole dynamic of football has changed because of the way that academy football has been professionalised. You've got great young coaches like Tamazan who, you need lots of them. because of that it has been sucked into the whole financial consideration of modern football. I know we're focused a lot on the Premier League academies but I also worked in a category three club at South End United and we were also encouraged to help the players to progress to other clubs and have that sell-on aspect.

18:55Temisan Williams:So a lot of these low-end clubs they will benefit from the sale of these of the players being able to go on because that will actually pay for part of the academy to maintain it as well.

19:06Sam Wallace:Which I'm guessing then, and you now mentor academy coaches, don't you, Temosyn, and advisor academy coaches. I would imagine the role of the academy coach now in 2025 might well be one of the hardest within a football club because you've got a club board looking at kids as investments and a way to help them with their balance sheet you've probably got the kids themselves wanting to know what their career path within the club will be from an early age otherwise there'll be other opportunities you've got the holistic side of your job to try and make them good people and good footballers and you may also have the directive coming down from the first team that the academy teams have to play the same way as the first team i can't see how all of those different themes tie together and knit together to make your job a particularly easy one it's very hard it's very hard especially

20:14Temisan Williams:when you have to speak with parents because there's certain things you can't say at that particular point in time it's only when parents have left the club and maybe their child has left that I can then have more open conversations with them what kind of things are you talking about why maybe their son isn't playing why isn't their son playing in an older older age group for example why aren't they getting an opportunity but why can't you tell them because the pathway you're still trying to help them to trying to encourage them that look they're still a pathway at this club but you may know that okay six months time if something doesn't change you'll try to be open with them but if something don't change maybe they might be out of the club a club scared of letting

20:55Sam Wallace:someone go that yes six months later looks looks sensational at arrival exactly spot on mark absolutely spot on one thing that does feel that it's changed is players wanted to know from a very very early age what their pathway is to the first team and if they can't see that pathway then they will be off i mean engamo is a perfect example really who was at chelsea and is is now at liverpool but that has come in i would argue over the last decade maybe since the bundesliga

21:29Temisan Williams:club started sniffing around that is what people tell me that that there's in parents are much and players are much more prepared to shop around and there is always a possibility 30th of June which is the kind of the end of the football financial year it's when contracts run out it's where most clubs end of financial year a player can issue notice to his club that he's going to leave the academy now scholarship covers years 12 and 13 in terms of school years it's so it's post 16 you know it's a two-year deal it's the old apprenticeship basically so once a club offers you a scholarship that puts a marker down that if he wants to leave to another category one academy then a fee has to be paid the tariff system is then out the window that's off the table so you've offered him a scholarship he said no i'm leaving you know full well he's going to another club and then and then it becomes a process of negotiating a fee so that takes us to who left chelsea for liverpool that fee has still not been agreed between the clubs it's going to go to what we colloquially call the tribunal, the compensation committee.

22:37Temisan Williams:And Liverpool are bound to pay it. Once you enter that process, you have to pay. And again, this is a problem that football's never been able to solve. So I remember Jermaine Defoe, I think when he left Charlton for West Ham, I think that went to a tribunal. And it's really volatile. Generally, they think it'll be close to similar fees for similar sorts of players, but it's three often retired managers who make a decision about it. So it could be anything. and there's a bit of a debate about whether this you know the fact that he's now become a Premier League player and scored this goal whether that's going to make any difference some lawyers tell me no no no it can only be judged up to the point that he left the club but you can't again you've got an unconscious bias there knowing he scored a winning goal you've got three old managers who've got four tribunals to get through that day and they're like well I've seen him score against Newcastle United he looks a good player to me in terms of the value of the homegrown player obviously pure profit you know and it's an amazing return on investment we've discussed how much it costs to get them through the academy, but also what it means to fans.

23:34Temisan Williams:You look at the Arsenal fans almost crying over as they're coming back to Arsenal. And they've got so many homegrown players there who are regularly appearing in the first team. And the outcry we've already discussed on the podcast, Chappers, about Manu potentially being sold for Manchester United and that leaving no homegrown players. That's still important, Sam, isn't it, to fans? Yeah, it's really important. And it's really important. I hesitate to use the word brand, but the Premier League love it. this notion that it's a global league that people follow all over the world and these are globally renowned clubs but they have that local route and it's often that player that is the most successful because there is that connection but I do think that has shifted I do think that that notion of coming through your childhood club and then representing them has gone a little bit I mean even Chelsea would argue look we gave new contracts to Levi Colwell we gave a new contract to Rhys James he's our club captain yes lots of players have left but we can't accommodate them all having one or two though mark it's it's a good look for a club isn't it to have them you know and your first

24:38Sam Wallace:11 on a Saturday yeah and it matters to to fans the one of our own chant is sung for a reason because it it does matter to to fans whoever they support I wonder we've had a lot of discussion obviously on Max Dowman but I do wonder as well in all of this Tamsin whether you get as much satisfaction of seeing kids that you've coached managing to forge a career elsewhere after the disappointment of being released so Charlie Kelman was was one of yours wasn't he and he banged them in for late in Orient last season he's now at Charlton does that give you as much satisfaction?

25:18Temisan Williams:Massive Charlie it was an interesting story so he was actually a grassroots player at 15 with us at Southend and he came from Hornchurch FC he scored about 10 goals in six games and me and my co-coach Robbie Rook went to the academy under at the time Ricky Duncan said him look we need to sign him we have to take him we went to Tottenham tried to give him a shirt with no number so that they couldn't they couldn't recognize him then at um then when he came to the under 15s team with me he said I'm going to make my debut when I'm 17 and two years to the exact month i was listening to sky sports news and jeff stelling said oh charlie kelvin's made his debut and he's just gone and scored from the halfway line i thought my goodness what it's it's a story that remained me forever i got i got a bit of a tingle there yeah it was phenomenal that's amazing phenomenal but to your point as well mark those who haven't had a korean professional game i still speak to them and i'm just as proud of them they've gone to university they've started their own businesses they're even coaches at clubs now as well so i remember each and every one of them at the heart of all of this story of real people and they're very young people vulnerable people and you know their their dreams are often shattered you know you've given us the percentage that that make it through the academy and they have to go on and live their lives don't they are the clubs doing we hear that crystal palace i know maybe that was because it was a subject of a tv show but crystal palace recognized this and and kind of are praised for that kind of aftercare that they have in terms of trying to find pathways for players.

26:52Temisan Williams:Are clubs doing enough to help those people when they don't get their dreams realised? It has got increasingly better. And I actually do some consultancy for a company called True Mind. That's been run by a founder called Will Mellis Blair, who actually was an academy player at May United. And we're helping scholars to be able to have what's called mental performance framework and skills. so working with all the EFL clubs also working with first teams and doing great work there but clubs do of course support players but it does come to an end at some point when you leave the club and I'm sure they're always reintegrated if they want to come back and coach because they do coaching badges at a certain age but it's difficult it's difficult for players because also it's their dreams and if they don't manage to achieve it some it can be really difficult and the parents who sacrifice you know hours and hours of you know dragging whole families because they've got three other kids and you know all of that it's a childhood isn't it that that is so i know some parents who have been at academy seven days a week because they've had two children there and they're two different ages so because of that they would have to train on different days you know so date night is going to who knows doncaster taking sandwiches and sitting in the car watching the game having I was having a conversation with Wayne Rooney Chappers about his thoughts on United's Academy.

28:16Temisan Williams:Obviously, his son Kai is doing very well. And apparently one of the cutbacks, the many cutbacks that they made in the last year, for example, was taking a food truck away that used to be there for parents who literally couldn't feed hot dinners to the other kids because they were sat. And he said it's such a little thing because it was a cost saving exercise, but meant such a lot to the families. Not because they couldn't afford their dinner, but just because they didn't practically have any other way of feeding the other kids who sat in the car. watching their brother train. So, you know, those little things can make a difference if a child is thinking or a family are thinking about taking their child elsewhere and putting them in another academy, presumably.

28:53Sam Wallace:You don't even have to have kids in academies, do you? No. You just have to be doing sports to spend my life with flasks and Tupperware all over my car. Yeah. But that's a really tedious anecdote to end this interesting chat on.

29:08Temisan Williams:So, Sam, to kind of finish it off, I know you said it's not perhaps got this quite right. Is it something that you think there'll be further changes in the future? There are some brilliant innovations. These academies are clearly much more sophisticated than they were 30 years ago in dealing with young people and their parents. And it's a lot of the bad stuff has gone. But there's no hiding from the fact that you are putting your child into a very, very competitive environment. Clubs will do great things for you. I mean, they'll put you in very good schools. You'll play on beautiful pitches. You'll get to go to Premier League games.

29:44Temisan Williams:And so if you can take the best out of it and not have, it's hard not to have the expectation that one day it'll be you. But if you can do that, and I think that's a really healthy relationship with it. If you can't, then, then yeah, there could well be some pretty shattering disappointment along the way.

30:03Sam Wallace:Well, before we go today, the comedian and Grimsby Town fan Lloyd Griffith will join us for a quick chat about them knocking out Manchester United. Do I have to stay for this?

30:14Temisan Williams:Do I have to go? You've actually changed the script. I mean, it said one hell of an upset, but actually I think, well, yeah, it was because they almost beat them 3-0. So they had a comeback, didn't they, Grimsby? So it was a bit of an upset.

30:25Sam Wallace:All right, Lloyd is next. The Sports Agents.

30:31Sam Wallace:The Sports Agents.

30:33Temisan Williams:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

30:37Sam Wallace:so Lloyd Griffith is with us you didn't take much persuading to come on did you it was a very easy ask wasn't it let's be honest um well I mean I'm very happy to be speaking to you Chappers what a morning what a day what a night what a night I can't get over it we haven't

30:55Temisan Williams:played Manchester United since 1948 we looked there starting 11 and their bench and it was It was unbelievable. They were going for it. And we played them off the park for like 50, 60 minutes. Our first half especially. I've had many a nice night at Donald Park. I don't think it's going to get much better than that. I don't think it's going to get much better than that. And do you know what was so great, Lloyd? Hi, by the way, it's Gabby here. It was so lovely that it all got resolved on the night. You know, it wasn't a case of having to have a replay or even extra time. It was the jeopardy of then going straight to penalties in the ground.

31:28Temisan Williams:People were kind of putting their programmes in front of their faces and looking. But actually, it felt like the perfect way to kind of end an incredibly dramatic night. And then it became the most ridiculous penalty shootout. And there have been some ridiculous ones lately, didn't it? Because your goalkeeper, who turns out to be a Man United fan, I don't know, he just stopped diving, didn't he? Yeah. I think it's harder for Manchester United to do their research on our penalties because with the greatest respect to Henry Brown, who's, I think, made three senior appearances for Grimsby, you know, there's not much data on where he puts his penalties.

32:04Temisan Williams:So, you know, for Anana, he had probably a more difficult job than Christy Pym. Christy Pym, I mean, a fantastic save him, as you say, a Manchester United fan. Also, if you squint,

32:13Sam Wallace:I think that's what I look like, Christy Pym in golf, you know what I mean? Not the tallest bloke, dark features, you know what I mean? You know, I actually sponsor him. I sponsor him at that Grimmshirtown Football Club, so it was great that my name was in the programme as the number one goalkeeper last night, which was lovely. But it was one of those ones as well

32:30Temisan Williams:where I often, as a fourth division football fan, I often get annoyed about these rule changes. I mean, no replays, and then Ashley's going straight to penalties. And last night, it worked out in our favour. We would have loved a replay at Manchester United, but as you say, Gabby, it got resolved on the evening. Sorry, it's just another train guy passing me. I'm a Doncaster train station. What a glamorous life I have. But it was resolved in the evening, and it just made for an absolute fairy tale.

32:57Sam Wallace:Are you heading back down south, are you? Are you one of these glory hunting Grimsby fans that, you know, is based in Surrey? What? That's all Blackbark, Chapman. Are you OK?

33:08Temisan Williams:I am. I do. I'm a Grimsby Town fan that lives in Battersea. Sure.

33:16Sam Wallace:Like them all, Lloyd. Unbelievable.

33:18Temisan Williams:I was actually in Malta on holiday with my very lovely girlfriend. And I just hadn't put the second round of the Carabao Cup in our diary. and um when we got manchester united it was very much and she's got quite an important job i mean she's got a linkedin account a pension i'm a clown traveling country no going to doncastle train station so i was like could could we come back on that wednesday she's like obviously not no and then i think she realized the gravitas of the situation and kind of like realized oh actually this is quite an important game and she's friends with one of the grimstreet town owners so she's like fine you can go back for it so i had to cut short my trip to malta and bless i i got a train to Manchester and she got a train to Gatwick I mean that is love isn't it so yeah I'm very

34:00Sam Wallace:is the whole of the Groomsby Town fixture list in your joint diary

34:04Temisan Williams:not joint diary no no no but I see when we were no that would be ridiculous Lloyd have you got any sympathy for Mark and Manchester United fans who've spent hundreds of millions trying to get this team to play in a style of football that Amarim obviously is quite wedded to and they come to Blondale Park and, as you say, get played off the park? A little bit of sympathy? Chappas takes me a tenth of a year saying idiot. So, absolutely done whatsoever. I absolutely love Chappas, but I've got no sympathy for him or any Man United fans. I don't. I think, like, it is worrying. I mean, I've done a couple of Man United podcasts this morning already, and you do wonder what is going on there.

34:46Temisan Williams:Like, obviously, there's this whole, you know, talk about the restructuring and the penny pinching and stuff like that. You know, there's a lot, obviously, behind the surface that we're not aware of that needs to get sorted out. Look, I think first and foremost, they need to get a better goalkeeper. Manchester United are just known for having good goalkeepers and they haven't had a good one for a long, long time. And honestly, I don't work for Grimsby Football Club, but I'm happy to broker a deal. If you want Christy Pim for£35 million, I'll drive him there.

35:17Sam Wallace:Let me ask you a final one, a serious one on Grimsby, because I spoke to your manager, David Artel, last night, and after talking to him, all three of us in the studio were like, my God, I'd love to play for him. Just his attitude and his demeanour was just so calming and relaxed and absolutely spot on. You've got local guys who are the owners, haven't you? Your chief exec actually came from Manchester United where she was the head of women's football. and your data department are connected to Brighton because after you played them in the FA Cup in the quarterfinals a couple of years ago, Tony Bloom was so impressed with Grimsby's owners that he wanted to try and help in some way.

36:04Sam Wallace:I know football can come and bite you on the arse very quickly, but everything appears to be going in the right direction for you.

36:10Temisan Williams:It is. And I think, you know, when the owners came in and I was kind of a little bit involved with bringing the new owners in, actually, which is a story for another day but they're two very nice chaps who basically wanted to use the club as a catalyst for change in the lincolnshire area do you know i mean we are quite deprived seaside town that have had better days and they've come in and the work they're doing at the football club and outside it is incredible and you know david artel was very you know i think he speaks so well i absolutely love the book yeah you know he's in it he said about my sister's 19th last night when you do need to trust the process ruben amaran is a brilliant manager you know you do need to trust him and you know we're getting players that we wouldn't have ever had a chance to sign him because they want to play for david artel knowing that they will become better players underneath him so look i think we're going in the right direction the fact that we've got jamestown analytics i mean is only a great thing so chappers if you're getting a bit disgruntled with what's happening at you know do swing over to dn35 you're more than welcome i'll buy you a top but yeah it's lovely what's happened at the club and like last night was just i think just such a lovely reward for everyone that's put in so much hard work and effort to get the club where it is and hopefully it'll get better.

37:22Temisan Williams:Lloyd, thank you so much for giving us a bit of time in between trains. You better go and get on yours and I'm sure you've probably got about 95 other podcasts to speak to today. You're representing Grimsby well. Take care.

37:33Sam Wallace:My favourite podcast though. Oh, very good. Cheers, guys.

37:44Temisan Williams:well done chappers i thought you handled that really well there with lloyd very much yeah yeah

37:48Sam Wallace:i think the next line i've got here gabby is make sure you subscribe to the pod i'm thinking i might unsubscribe from from the pod uh tomorrow our weekend edition features an interview with one of the pioneering group of women who set up the very first women's rugby union world cup back in And I sort of expect myself here, Gabby, to be saying 1960 or 1951 and it's 1991.

38:14Temisan Williams:Yeah, but that's actually because the first Men's World Cup was only in the 80s, wasn't it? So they haven't actually been around for that long World Cups in Rugby Union. And we'll hear more about their story. But it took players selling Russian dolls and vodka using fax machines. And it actually cost our guest her job at the time. It's a brilliant story. so do if you can listen to that it also sounds like an episode of only fools and horses

38:38Sam Wallace:catch up with all of our episodes on youtube global player or wherever you get your podcast hit subscribe or follow and leave us a review if you've made it this far and do get in touch by

38:52Temisan Williams:email the sportsagents at global.com on our socials or via the form in the show notes there are so many ways to get in touch with us um that really i mean really the short of just hanging out outside the Global Studios and chatting to us. Really, that's the only thing left, isn't it? We'll be back tomorrow. Thanks for listening.

39:07Sam Wallace:The Sports Agents.

39:08Temisan Williams:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.