How Arteta ended Arsenal's 22-year 'Banter Era’ to have the last laugh

0:01This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:30Leandra Trossard, for example, it was supposed to be Mikhailo Mudrik.

0:49There you go.

1:11Some of the sights and sounds from last night after the final whistle in Bournemouth caused an impromptu party inside the Arsenal training ground on the steps of the Emirates and in the streets of North London. So we're here with an impromptu pod. We're going to ask you to cast your minds back to 2004. or maybe you were creating a profile on that brand new site, Facebook. Maybe you watched the final ever episode of Friends. Mr. Brightside is topping the charts. You're looking forward to the Summer Olympics. It's going back to its spiritual home, Athens. Well, 22 years on from there, Arsenal have been crowned champions once again.

1:43All the waiting and the wishing and the nerves finally came to an end. So we'll tell that story today. Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:58Hi, Mark. Hi, Gabby. Nadim, how are you? Superb. Great to be back on again so soon. We're doing a... An emergency. Do you want to do that again with some feeling? Okay, sorry. It's so good to be back again so soon. What a privilege. I was thinking that this is an emergency episode of the Sports Agents. And as I was coming on, I was thinking about what happens with the emergency episodes of the News Agents. And usually it's a world war. It's a crisis somewhere that means that food prices are going up. But we get to do emergency episodes when something joyous happens. Right, Edom? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

2:33Honestly, it's a privilege to be here. Yeah, let's do that. You're not joyous, though, are you? Speak for yourself, Chappers. You're not joyous. Speak for yourself. The Athletics Arsenal correspondent Amy Lawrence is with us. And how long have we known each other? 20 years? I'd say something like that, Mark, yeah. 20 years. So, I mean, I know you have written a brilliant article on The Athletic today about all the different things that have happened in kind of Arsenal's history from the title win in 2004 to now. I mean, so many kind of momentous moments, actually. Some comical, some, you know, unfortunate.

3:14But in 20 years of friendship, I've never been able to say to you through gritted teeth, congratulations. well that's um i hope you i hope you're finding that that's an easy word to say today but uh yeah i'm very glad to hear it thank you well i i don't want to pay top trumps but i think i go back about 30 years with you amy and i have and i you know i used to see you a lot in the wenger years though that was one that we our path seemed to cross a lot and i was thinking about you today like how long it just feels like another lifetime doesn't it that you know we've we've listed some of the things that were happening in 2004.

3:51My son is an Arsenal fan. He wasn't even born then. And, you know, and that just puts into kind of context how long this has taken. But does that make it feel even sweeter? I mean, I have felt for the last few months this growing sense of desperation for Arsenal to get over the line, not for me, not for people of my age, but for my children, for my sons and their friends. And I had a bunch of them round here last night watching the Man City game at Bournemouth and just observing for them the enormity of what they were hoping for and then it actually becoming reality. It was a different kind of perspective.

4:35I suppose it's like when you have kids and they're celebrating Christmas and it means so much more by watching them opening their presents and believing in Santa Claus or whatever than you begin to care about as an adult. But I think there's a whole generation of people out there and actually what I found incredibly poignant and important actually in terms of what Arsenal are as a club was we live very close to the ground and as soon as the final whistle went, like just the entire, it felt like the entirety of Highburn and Islington opened their doors and ran, just pegged it to the stadium. like a magnet and all of all of our community was there and that's something that North London has always done very well it is a very multicultural place and you saw people there of every possible age ethnicity creed whatever you want to say and you know London can be a difficult place sometimes for for that but everything melted away and everybody was as one and people fell into each other's arms and locked eyes and you just don't get that sort of feeling that often and because it was spontaneous because it wasn't really linked to an Arsenal game it just it was like this massive you know somebody flicked a switch and say right Carnival now no preparation no anything and and just seeing that there was so many young people who again I look around and I think these are people who can't necessarily come to games very often you know they might not be able to afford it they might not be able to get tickets but they were it was a leveler like everybody was part of it and that that that was just something kind of culturally significant quite apart from the sporting significance of it all that really It was beautiful.

6:34Nedim, even you must have just kind of had a little lump in your throat looking at those scenes. I have to admit, Amy and Chappers, I was a bit teary this morning looking at some of those things because all those things that you said there, it's why we love football. And you might not love who the champions are this season, Nedim, but you've got to love that. Yeah, without question. And, you know, we were talking about how long it has been and so on. And I made my debut the season after Arsenal became invincible. And I've been retired for six years now. so for me it's a career and then some since that happened and I never thought that would be the case I have given how good they were back then that it would take to now and I think looking at those celebrations the sort of raw feeling of like joy happiness togetherness like they've always been really really well supported and as Amy said there's so many different like cultures and ages and everything coming together that's been the way that I support Arsenal an incredibly well supported club that hasn't necessarily had the success in recent times that we've seen in times gone by but that feeling as I say I'm very lucky because you know I support Manchester City and in the last say five or six years I've seen them win the Champions League for the first time but I remember being on the field obviously playing for QPR when there was that pitch invasion in 2012 and those fans have probably never done a pitch invasion before but that was the just crazy amount of emotion that came in that moment I think for lots of Arsenal fans getting a chance to see their side do that after two decades it is great and from a playing standpoint you know what they're doing is what 99 point whatever percent of us former pros would have loved to be able to do to win a premier league title you know you can't take away that feeling from them and it's very much deserved we can have debates about cup competitions and whether a team deserves this or deserves that the run and this that and the other but if you finish number one in that league you are deserving of it i think the work that they've been through to get there the tough times that they've had in times gone by but the fact they kept going they kept going and kept going like I'm really happy for them and just for any avoidance of doubt that is an Ian Wright okay and this this sits with me in my car every day because I remember when my I think it's my daughter unpacked it one time and she's like who's this and I said one of the most important players in the history of English football and he will stay in my car forever and he was uh he was there last night at the Emirates as well I also think not not that I've really heard from the celebration police in the last 24 hours.

8:57But I do also think, Amy, and I said this on the radio last night, it's an important lesson for us all to kind of drink in these moments if and when they happen to your club because you actually don't know when they're going to happen again. And if you'd have said to Arsenal fans, after the Invincibles picked up the Premier League title, it'll be 22 years until you win it again, they'd have laughed at you and the same when Liverpool's dominance came to an end and in fact where Manchester United find themselves now and I can use United as an example because you know I can remember being a kid during the 26 years of waiting between 67 and 93 which is what these Arsenal youngsters are experiencing now you never know when it stops and it stops for everybody nobody nobody can keep it going constantly so you have to savor the emotions of nights like last night I completely agree and I think I think that's one of the things that I struggle with and struggled with generally in the discourse leading up to this which was the whole idea that there is no context there is no nuance in most people's discourse between success and loser and you know the second again thing which became this stick to beat Arsenal with and all season long every single team and even teams in lower divisions who couldn't imagine what it's like to be second in the Premier League were mocking Arsenal second again like wherever anybody went that was thrown at you because it you know just kept happening and I found that just I get it because you know everybody loves a bit of football banter and that very much exists and specifically with social media today it's even more enhanced but to not be able to recognize progress to not be able to recognize people that are doing the right things that are trying to build something and you know nobody can win every time and to assume that if you're second or even third or fourth that you're useless and you're deserving of mockery and derision sort of frustrates me and I'm very glad that that has been put to bed for for the club for Mikel Arteta and for this group of players because I think it was a bit it got a bit mad towards the end I'd be I'd be interested in what everybody thinks about this as well but and maybe you go first Amy because this was also on the Athletic there is a brilliant article on there on Arsenal's mindset and philosophy over the last six and a half years of what they decided to do six years ago, to the extent of looking at the life cycle of their rivals and ages of their players and when they might be going past their peak.

11:49So could they then get their Arsenal squad to be hitting the peak, which is around now, when other teams with their big players were maybe past their peak? It is a brilliant article, but part of that means you need to be patient for six years. Not just patient with Arteta, but patient with your players and patient with your transfer policy, so that the players you spend£30 and£40 million on four years ago, who are only 21 or 22, you're going to have to wait four years. You're going to have to wait four years until they might be ready to deliver. It is such a good article. But in the course of that, you then have to deal with the piss-taking of finishing second and so on and so forth.

12:32I think I agree with you. The detail of that sort of precision strategy thinking is really insightful and probably quite rare. I mean, if you think about a moment where there's going to be a number of ambitious Premier League teams that might be changing their manager or have gone through a period of bringing in some really big players like Liverpool did last summer. It didn't quite work out, whatever. There's a lot happening. Chelsea are obviously going to go through a massive change. Man City, if Pep does step down, there's going to be a significant change there.

13:07Most of the time, it appears to me outside that there's a lot of short-term thinking in football. I mean, look at the amount of managerial changes. Chelsea alone have had the seasonal Tottenham just to try and survive where they want to be. and not get worse. So it seems outside the box almost to say, okay, we're going to have a three or five year plan, and we're going to do it gradually. But the other thing they did along the way, which is interesting, is you talk about, you know, in some cases, having young players and giving them time. But there's also been, I remember talking to Edu, who was the technical director previously, and him explaining about how they were almost stepping stones of the type of player that you bring in so the first thing they did was bring in sort of a group of players ben white aaron ramsdale tommy yasu to just make their first level of improvement but they never felt necessarily that they were going to be the be all and end all then the next phase comes in and you've got jesus and zinchenko arriving and bringing in that now sort of experience and winning the premier league then comes teclan price then you know comes the next phase last summer where they brought in a bunch of players to address the fact that the squad was struggling for depth when injuries hit.

14:18And I think they recognised that they couldn't do it all at once. Only the super rich who can maybe handle it in today's financial world can get around that. But for everyone else, you do have to do it incrementally. And I think Arsenal have been quite clever in the way that they have developed this squad and stuck with it and improve themselves a little bit season on season. And a lot has been made, Nedam, hasn't it, of the strength and depth of this squad. Over the summer, the strengthening has really kind of borne fruit this season. And at the start of the Champions League second league semifinal against Bayern Munich, they had five English players.

14:59Atleti Madrid, wasn't it? Atleti Madrid, sorry. They were playing in a semifinal at Bayern Munich, but not again. It was actually at the start of their semifinal. It was just on a different night. At the start of their semi-final against Atletico Madrid, they had five English players on the pitch. Is that a significant thing for you, Nedam, in terms of the development of this team? That's a really good question. I think, in some ways, it's the value of those English players. Because if we're talking about the likes of Saka and Rice and so on, you can see how important they are to Arsenal, what they want to be.

15:32You know, the tough times that they've been through, but then have also shone through and been really keen, significant for the club. and yeah I think I think they're important and you know you mentioned before about the depth that they have I think they're two sides to this because in years gone by you could almost link a downturn in form to like a key player being unavailable and it's not to say that that couldn't have been the case this year because with having Rice essentially the two centre-halves and the goalkeeper being available for the majority of the season he's kind of always felt the same and I I think some of the, so I've been trying to workshop this idea.

16:10And I think there are two ways to perceive football. And there's obviously the floor and the ceiling. And I think the signings that they've brought have raised the floor to a point where if somebody is missing, then it doesn't change who they are as a team. You know, you can see whichever 11 they've put out this season, whether it feature Louis Skelly playing midfield, or say Louis Skelly on the bench because he went through long spells where he didn't play. Eze starting, or Eze on the bench where he went through a spell where he wasn't playing. Saka being out, so Madueke comes in. like it's different but it still feels like Arsenal I think that is really really important and the ceiling point is if Bakayasaka would have been available for the majority of the season Arsenal possibly would have looked better but the fact is it never dropped to a point to where you know it was like the days when say Holding had to come in for Saliba just out of the blue I think it was like two three years ago and it's not as a disrespect to Holding but it feels different now but I think for Arsenal those English players that you mentioned in this English league being so important for Arsenal at this moment in time.

17:07I think it's key. And we might talk about this throughout this topic as well, by the way. But I think we'll talk about Decan Rice and how good he's been. But for me, this has been David Rye's year. And I think personally, someone might say Rice should be up for player of the year and so on. But I think Rye's been closer to his best. And I think he's been huge for them this season. Which kind of leads me on to the next point I was going to just flag on the squad building, which is there have been several decisions that they have made over the last three or four years where time has proven that actually they made the right decision.

17:46Raya was one. There was a lot of skepticism about that deal and do you need two number ones and are they both number ones and so on and so forth? Well, time has proved that correct. There was a huge, Joe Hart made the point when he was with me last night, match of the day, there was a huge clamour for why on earth is Saliba on loan? Saliba should be here and playing. Well, no, they kept him on loan to develop him. They chose to go big on Declan Rice. Why are you signing Kai Havertz from Chelsea? Even why are you signing Madweke from Chelsea? Should we have spent 130 million on Isak in the summer?

18:23Well, no, what we'll do is we'll use that 130 million across four or five players who have all contributed, if you think, Muscara or Incapier, whatever. Those big decisions, I'm sure there are some, Amy, that they've got wrong, but it feels like a lot of the big decisions that have come together to contribute, of which Raya is probably the biggest, as Nadim says, they've got right. They have had. I agree with you. It's not perfection, but they've got a very good percentage of strategic decisions on players and on building the team right. And, you know, even... But sometimes it's luck. Sometimes it's what falls in your lap.

19:08Leandro Trossard, for example, it was supposed to be Mikhailo Mudrik. You know, that was a deal that Arsenal were actively chasing. They were ahead of the game. Allegedly, the player was in tears that it didn't come through and he ended up diverting to Chelsea. and his career has gone... Yeah, well, glad you said that. His career obviously hasn't gone in the direction that was anticipated. But as a consequence of that, Arsenal pivoted quickly and went and picked up Leandro Trossard for a much less significant outlay. And he has played a huge part in this season. He started off really, he had a bit of a dip and that's come against.

19:47He's one of the unsung heroes, Amy. Yeah, he's got a little bit of... He's got something, I think, that stands out from the rest of that crowd of Arsenal's forwards. He has a sort of technical security with his trickery and he's a different kind of outlet. It's not just based on kind of pace and being direct. He gives something and he's a different type of personality as well. But I think you're right to pick out Raya Nadeem. I mean, he's been, he's evolved. because when he first came, I think he had to prove to himself, I can be the main man at club of this stature because I suspect there is a difference psychologically when you're a player between being a big fish in a smaller pond to being a slightly smaller fish.

20:36Oh, fish? Excuse me. This isn't live. Big night. I told you I had to like that. A slightly smaller fish in a gigantic pond. but just on Declan the moment of the season probably for me and I know that he took some stick for this which I'm not sure I understand but when at the end of the game at the Etihad that Arsenal lost which opened it all up and made it anybody's his personal reaction and I don't believe for a moment it was performative to get hold of his teammates and he looked at the away supporters who were just 10 yards away from where he was standing and said it's not done and that resistance to the idea that Man City would automatically go on one of their runs and there was nothing anybody could do to stop it I think that that leadership he showed in that moment and that determination to not feel sorry for yourself are a really really complicated challenging uh pivot point of of the season um I think that has been instrumental and the way that Arsenal have been psychologically since that moment since the fact that it turned into essentially a kind of five game penalty shootout between the two teams that that bravery that courage to take that head on and not feel overwhelmed by it or downbeat because of it I think was huge can we talk about psychology Nadem because I can't imagine what this will do to you and your confidence as a player when you finally get over that line and you're already great but then the belief that you know you've done it's smashing that four minute mile it's lately the sub two hour marathon whichever whichever impossible thing it feels in your mind that you you know that you're coming towards you're getting over what what will it do to this group of players and we've got a champions league final to think about of course yeah the champions league like that's honestly they're in such a great position they've just won the league they've got a game this weekend which now does not matter in a champions league final in two weeks time another opportunity to make history for them so i think from a player perspective the ones that have been there through the last three, four, five years, like say like a Bukayo Saka who was in that first Arteta season, wasn't he?

23:03He is top of the world to where he knows and all those people around him know how tough a journey this has been to achieve this objective. I think even if it's any particular season, you wouldn't say year in, year out, it's still a very, very tough thing to do. But they go down in history now as one of those sides to win the Premier League, to win the top title in men's English football. is huge and you can't I can't, like, listen, I've played with people who feel top of the world because they'll win a shooting session on a Friday afternoon so to finish the very top of the English football pyramid like, again, I struggle to put into words how significant that is for them and when they go and play next season, there'll be a gold badge.

23:41When they are 10, 20, 30 years down the road, this season will still be talked about. They have made history as this group and as I said before, they're very deserving of it and to, you know, they talk about the psychology of it as well. To let you in from an opposing player's perspective, when Mikel Arteta first came into Arsenal and the 2010s to 2020s of Arsenal, everyone knew how good they were but everyone said how soft they were. At some point you put them under pressure and they'll crumble. In the early 2020s they have that point where they're rising, are they going to qualify for the Champions League?

24:14Then I believe there was a tough game away at St. James' Park and they lost and finished maybe fifth. Everyone's like, oh this is Arsenal. Fast forward three or four years and they're one of the toughest teams to play, not just in England, but in all of Europe. Arsenal finishing top of the Champions League, like full table. The 9 ,000 teams that qualify for the Champions League, Arsenal are still the number one. So again, that psychology and some of those things that we had in the past, the stereotypes, all that's dead because those players and the management and the coach for the football club has changed.

24:43And the belief is going to be there now going forward because firstly, they know they can play against anyone and beat anyone, but they also know they can be consistent enough to get a chance to lift the Premier League titles in the way that they're going to be doing in the coming days. It's a huge credit to them. And like, as I say, they're very deserving of it because at one point it felt like their progress was linear. Then there was last season. And I thought, well, maybe this is going to be tough for them going into the next one, but instead they've won it. And I think Mikhail Arteta has been there for seven years.

25:10Is that right, Amy? And that, I believe, puts him in the top 10 for longest serving managers in the history of the Premier League and it feels like a club that is still just about getting going.

25:27Can I ask the three of you a question? I was just struck by what Nedim said about that old image of Arsenal being a bit soft and I think a lot of Arsenal supporters have felt a bit prickly about the fact that for a long time they were criticised for being too soft and now they're criticised for being too functional and, you know, not pretty. And is it just the kind of note pleasing some people? I'm interested to know what you will think as people associated with maybe different clubs and looking at it from the outside. I find it a bit of a – I'm happy to go first. I find it a bit of a weird one, Amy, to be honest, because they still have an incredible skill set of players.

26:14You know, they have incredibly entertaining, talented footballers who have scored some fantastic goals this season. I mean, Ezzet in particular, if you think, actually, and went through a phase, didn't he, before Christmas, before the defeat at Villa, where he was Arsenal's talisman around the North London derby. The set-piece thing, I mean, they score a lot of set-pieces because of the brilliance of the delivery. I know all of this stuff is made on blocking and movement and this, that, and the other. If you even take their last game Monday night, that ball from Saka is right on Kai Havertz's head and is not far off, and Nadem tell me, is not far off indefensible.

27:04Because I don't see if Havertz gets the jump and the ball is exactly where he expects it to be, I don't see how you defend that because he's got the run on you. so I find it a bit they score a lot of goals from set pieces but other teams do but the reason they score a lot of goals from set pieces is because they've got really talented footballers who land the ball on a sixpence that's how I view it Chappers you're perfectly right because through my career all the hundreds of goals I conceded there was nothing I could have done about any of them so obviously that's the way that football works I must remind everybody of that fact don't trust your line eyes Indefensible, all of them Yeah, me or them, I don't know.

27:42But I think with Arsenal, I think across the last couple of seasons, some of the critique has come, I believe, because through certain parts of a season, there feels like some of the creativity would be limited from some of their key attacking players. And a lot was relied upon from, say, delivery from set pieces and so on. And there was a balance that can always be had. And through Arsenal's tougher times, you wouldn't necessarily see them create a ton from open play. And I think that's where some people probably saw it. But the fact is, they're going to finish the season either top or second-top scorers anyway.

28:16So there is enough talent there. But speaking to one of my friends who work with the BBC, Chris, I'd ask him, who would you say the top three or four players have been viewed this season if you were to go for a player of the season? And he's mentioning centre-halves and the goalkeeper and the midfielder. and I think not to say that that's a problem especially having been a defender but I like the seasons when it's the attacker it's the winger it's someone else because you know that they've had standout moments and long periods of dominance within the season so I think that's probably where some of the critique comes but as we can all accept there is very much a bias that most people hold against Arsenal and you will just throw that out whenever you can because every time a score from a set piece oh it's disgusting but still as their team is about to take a corner.

29:06There's a huge sense of excitement thinking maybe this could be us. I appreciate the honesty there. A couple of things. One, as I support a team who's the closest we've ever come to winning a champion, sorry, we've never come close to a Champions League. The closest we've ever come to winning the Premier League, Newcastle United, was a season where our philosophy seemed to be we'll score one more than you, right? Yeah. And we blew it because we did not build anything from the back. We had no defence to speak of. We just had these really exciting attacking players and we entertained people. We didn't win a thing, right?

29:38That team fell away then. And I look at Arsenal in the Champions League this season who are unbeaten, who have the best defence in Europe. And I've done more probably live Champions League games with Arsenal than anything else. And stand next to somebody in Clarence Seardorff who will tell you time and time again that every top team in Europe who wins a Champions League does it with the best defence. I think there's something like the last 15 out of the last 20 Champions Leagues have been won by the team with the best defence. And so Arsenal's incredible defence, I marvel at because they're winning things.

30:09And what a lovely thing to be able to do as a fan to win things. I just don't get it. I don't get this idea that you have to also be these entertainers that kind of, you know, are like the Harlem Globetrotters of football at the same time. You know, I think it's a skill. Defending as a skill is perhaps, and Nedim, you might like this, is underrated and underappreciated. Well, listen. And teams who can defend like Arsenal have done, I think it should be admired. It's part of the game. So I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you, okay? Just because if I never kept a clean sheet in my career, but we won by one goal every game, I'm all right with that.

30:42I may be out of work, but I'll be successful. So I'll push back on that bit. But the general entertainment point, I think it's an interesting one because, like speaking with some of my, I have loads of friends at Arsenal fans, probably because they're just loads of Arsenal fans in general. we're finding out today aren't we oh you're not wrong let's be fair nothing well I was gonna I was gonna reveal my uh bias then but I'm not gonna name another team but Chappers knows but there's another team out there that has big fan base that comes out when they're doing well but in my mind like for the way this works it's almost like the deal was we're winning so this is all good and this is all fine there was we were on a radio show I think it's possibly myself and Chappers and an Arsenal fan came on and he said if you want to be entertained go to the circus but then I looked up and down the land and there are teams who like whose team are like how's the best way to describe it now it's not just about the results because some people might stop going because Arsenal can play a really exciting brand of football because for me personally I'm biased I love a Berriese I played with him you know I mean I love him as a person I love old God I love the way Saka plays I love the way that guy plays so I'm tuned in to see that so the defensive side of things is good and it's robust and like defense can win championships.

31:55But to go on that point, the defending thing, I have to give credit to the whole of Arsenal. If you go back to two weeks ago when there was that controversy around, say, that goal that was disallowed for West Ham, controversy or not, you decide. You're looking at some of your attacking players trying to wrestle some of the biggest players on the pitch because it's a whole approach where everybody has to do a job. When they're doing their attacking set pieces, it might be Martinelli and Odegaard on the halfway line, but Arteta trusts them because he knows they'll do whatever it takes to make sure that a team doesn't concede anything.