How Italy's World Cup 'curse' sparked political crisis

0:02James Horncastle:This is a Global Player original podcast. The headquarters of the Italian Football Federation in Rome has been pelted with eggs. Did you watch England lose to Japan? No. The president of the Italian Football Federation, Gabriele Gravina, he will resign today and the reset button will be pushed. Chatting to Arsenal fans, they seem to convince themselves that actually the Champions League is the thing they want the most.

0:27Gabby:It's always the domestic league first and foremost. Has to be.

0:32James Horncastle:The papers, politicians, the Italian public believe that their system is still rotten. It's official then. This World Cup in the US will be the third that Italy has failed to make. So how has one of the most decorated football nations in the world failed to meet the tournament that has 48 teams in it?

0:52Gabby:Even politicians in Italy don't miss an opportunity to throw their two penneth in. So they're demanding that heads must roll. We will talk about this today because their local papers have dubbed it the Azuris World Cup curse. And the kind of debates that England fans might remember surrounding their performance at the 2010 World Cup in South Africa around young talent, foreign players and a league that seems to be in disarray. Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:31The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, Mark. Hi, Gabby. How are you? I feel a little bit discombobulated not working at the weekend. I know you are working this weekend.

1:45Gabby:Do you know what? Looking ahead to this weekend, and I think we will talk about this in the build-up to the FA Cup game, the Southampton Arsenal one, But it will be interesting to see how Arsenal react because already the League Cup final defeat seems so long ago. And in fact, by the time we get back to the Premier League in still over a week's time, it will understandably feel even longer since that defeat. So I actually think the way the calendar has worked out could well benefit Arsenal. Yeah, because I will be popping to Lisbon on Monday where they're playing against Sporting on Tuesday. So they will have played an FA Cup and a Champions League first leg quarterfinal before they get, as you say, back into the Premier League.

2:31And chatting to Arsenal fans, I don't know if this is kidology and they're trying to convince themselves of this. I have one in very close to my heart, my son. They seem to convince themselves that actually the Champions League is on balance the thing they want the most because they've never won it. But I still, I cannot believe that the collateral, the damage that would, you know, the fallout from not winning the Premier League would be huge. Whereas if they go out in the semifinals of the Champions League, that's not a disgrace, is it? Throwing away the lead they've got in the Premier League is something of a disaster.

3:05Gabby:I think until you win, I know some teams have very special relationships with European football and so on and so forth. But I am always of the opinion that unless, say, you've won the Premier League four times on the spin or three times on the spin and haven't won the Champions League and therefore really want to get your hands on the European Cup, I think it's always the domestic league first and foremost. Has to be. So this is some kind of PR exercise. From your son. That's protecting you. And others. Others I've spoken to of a similar, I've got a very good friend whose whole family, Arsenal Nuts, been season ticket holders for generations.

3:45And he's trying to convince me of that as well. So I'm glad that you've...

3:48Gabby:I just think, do you know what would be very interesting in this experiment? I'm not saying this is going to happen. And so don't jump on me, Arsenal Files. If they lose 3-0 in Lisbon, but then beat Bournemouth, and so extend their lead at the top of the table. I'd be very interested to know what they're saying after that. What the mood music is like. Did you watch England lose to Japan? No. No. So many players pulled out, which I completely understand. International friendlies are just a money-making exercise. And I apologise to people that I'm cynical. The send-off series, that's what it was called.

4:24The what?

4:24Gabby:Sorry? That's what it was termed by the FA, the send-off series. The send-off series. I must have missed that. What do you mean a money-making exercise? It even had a name. Oh, my God. I'm too long in the tooth for send-off series and stuff. But I just, what can you really, what does anybody get out of it? Does Thomas Tuchel learn, as it seems to be the biggest fallout, that if he didn't know this before, a fit Harry Kane is absolutely vital. If England are going to have any chance of doing anything at this summer's world, Cup and digging into kind of, we all know the impact he's had since his international debut in 2015, but he's been involved in 32 % of England goals in that time.

5:08And I think that percentage would probably be even higher in the last four or five years. That's over an 11 year spread. And that I think is probably the biggest takeaway, isn't it? Oh yeah, we all kind of knew that now we really know that and doing match the day every week. We know there aren't any English strikers.

5:23Gabby:Well, the other thing with Harry Kane is that he is probably the only one who feels like is bang in form this season. Most of the rest of the England attacking lineup have had very hit and miss. Patchy, yeah, patchy. Morgan Rogers was flying before Christmas around the festive period. He has dropped off a little bit compared to what his high standards were. Phil Foden's not necessarily starting at Manchester City. Cole Palmer's had a bit of an injury hit season at Chelsea. Oli Watkins has been very patchy. Dominic Cavaloon had a really good purple patch, again, around the sort of Christmas period.

6:12Gabby:November, December, yeah. But that's maybe dropped a little bit. Dominic Solanke's been injured. Jude Bellingham's been injured. Did you mention DeLapp? DeLapp's been in and out. Yeah, Jude Bellingham's been injured. There are, and I do actually think, I do think probably a lot of them are shattered as well. And I read this morning on the way here that Elliot Anderson's set to play more minutes this season than he's ever played in his career before, before he's even got to the World Cup. So what is the point of having, what is the point of throwing two more friendlies on top of everything else?

6:46Do you think on that basis that Thomas Tuchel isn't panicking too much? I don't think he's panicking, no. And do you think he's changed anything about what he thinks is his squad? No.

6:57Gabby:He didn't learn anything. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I reckon he knew six months ago, really, what his ideal, certainly maybe what 23 of the 26 were going to be. I think he's always, always. Has Harry Maguire perhaps been one of those that's kind of played his way in since Christmas? Maybe he wasn't there. But then Tuchel has said as well that there are four other centre-halves ahead of him. I mean, Konsa and Gay and Chalabar and John Stones. but mainly I think because of the versatility of it of three of those of Stones and Konza and Chalabar so he's been very consistent with that as well look Maguire has been back Cobby Mane he's been back there are a couple of others who may who have sort of been back as as well but I think I think from six months ago he he knew what the what the main makeup of this squad was going to be I'm not sure he's I'm not sure he's learned a massive amount now we are always looking for ways that we can get you some international caps somewhere right um this has been a theme of our two years or so together um on this podcast you're going to be hugely rude now aren't you well this is something to aim for yes um because the England over 70s cricket team have not only won the Ashes and the World Cup but there is news as well that that's because of the success of overage cricket teams, they're bringing down to 65.

8:28So it's not long. There's an over 65.

8:34You've only got, you know, just over a decade. Look how pleased you are with yourself. I love this story though, because I mean, how fantastic in your retirement to be going off, as these guys have done, to play in a tournament. It's cost them a bit of money to go down under, but as they've said, and the captain John Evans said, dip into your bank balance and tell your kids that their inheritance is going to be not quite as big as it might have been it costs them obviously to do this but uh they've been out there having the time of their lives there are quite a lot of countries playing overage cricket as well uh 36 countries it's just it is it's a a lovely

9:09Gabby:story and be a really nice idea of something to hold on to because i don't um i didn't do any team sport now actually partly through just not having the time to commit not being able to move so so no veteran stuff no nothing and i probably missed that more than more than anything when when team sport was such a large part of my life growing up from sort of first playing at at six all the way to i think i probably stopped around 36 37 um it's a i missed that you know you can play golf and you can go to the gym and you can go on a peloton and all of that kind of stuff it's still not the same as that as that feeling of team sport so the more that that vets that whether it's vets cricket or walking football walking football vets netball whatever whatever it may be the more that that's available to those of us who are getting ever closer to to it i it's How much fun must they have had?

10:23I'm definitely going to start playing cricket, basically, in the aim that in 20 years' time I can be part of it. I mean, there's nothing to say that your skill set can't improve from 50 to 60, is there? Not at all.

10:36Gabby:And when we get Stephen Finn back on to cover the summer test matches, you'll have already done six weeks of nets, and you'll be able to give your cricketing expertise seats to steven i'm thinking i'm probably going to be quite a good fast bowler that's what i'm i think there's a lot of physical attributes that are needed that i that i might i might have that was me i was well when i say fast i'll probably we'll go medium shall we but that that was that way i come back to save my life but i could i could bowl all right i could give you a lesson Gabby. Yes, we could do that. And don't give our producers any ideas.

11:20We'll review that, shall we, in the future.

11:23Gabby:And if we do do it, you'll be able to watch it on YouTube, Global Player, or anywhere else where you can watch these things. And that's where you can find all of our podcasts as well and previous episodes. So subscribe, follow, and please leave us a review. So today we're focusing on the fact that Italy are going to miss their third successive World So just how did the empire fall so dramatically? James Horncastle joins us next.

11:47James Horncastle:The Sports Agents. The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. James Horncastle, welcome back to the Sports Agents. I can't believe, I genuinely can't believe we're going to have this conversation that Italy have failed to make their third successive World Cup. And unsurprisingly, it's gone to Parliament. I can imagine it's the conversation pretty much every Italian is having on the streets of every major footballing city and town in the country. Give us a sense of the scale of the disaster. Well, I was in Zenitza the other night, Gabby, and there was consternation in the room after the game when the president of the Italian Football Federation came to speak alongside Gennaro Gattuso and Gianluigi Buffon.

12:40James Horncastle:And the consternation was because Gabriele Gravino refused to resign. And he said, we're going to call a meeting, the Italian Football Federation, next week and we're going to decide what to do. And by decide what to do, he didn't mean decide his own future. He meant plan for the next four years. And this has gone down very badly back in Italy. So this morning, the headquarters of the Italian Football Federation in Rome has been pelted with eggs. You have had the youth movement from the Prime Minister's Party, Giorgio Malone. They have been protesting outside of the offices of the Italian Football Federation.

13:21James Horncastle:and you know we are recording this on lunchtime on Thursday and the expectation is that because of the political pressure that you've mentioned Gabriele Gravina despite the support of Alexander Seferin the UEFA president he will resign today and the reset button will be pushed.

13:45Gabby:It can't all beyond one person though this can it if we're looking back at three world cups of failure

13:53James Horncastle:no it's not chappers although he was in charge the last time um and there was a feeling there and then after italy lost to north macedonia in palermo in 2022 that he should have quit Now, the reason he didn't was because only six months earlier, Italy had won the European Championship for the first time in half a century. And there was a feeling that that World Cup failure, remember the Euros in 2020 got pushed back to 2021 because of COVID. Italy won it straight into this World Cup qualifying campaign. And that success was still very fresh. And so he thought, why should I resign? And I think Gravina still looks at it in terms of, hang on a minute, guys, I've actually won something.

14:47James Horncastle:I've been in charge when Italy have supposedly returned to being a successful nation. But you're right, Chappers, it's not all on him. I think from top to bottom, there are systemic flaws which we can get into. And even the game in Zenitza on Tuesday, Italy were 1-0 up. And if Alessandro Bastoni doesn't get sent off and they don't have to play the next 90 minutes through extra time with 10 men, if Moisey Ken at 1-0 up and a man down takes that chance at 1v1, it's probably a very different conversation that we're having today. We're probably saying Italy finally made it. So players and coaching staff also need to take responsibility for what happened on Tuesday.

15:35James Horncastle:But yes, I think more generally, the papers, politicians, the Italian public believe that their system is still rotten. It hasn't had the kind of healing that it needed already 16 years ago, because we talk about these failures to qualify for the World Cup. Italy in 2010, as holders, went out in the group stages. And in 2014, they went out in the group stages as well. So already there and then, they were talking about the need to make reforms. So really, it's from the final of 2006, the demise has kind of started then, or the rot started then somehow. Is that what you're saying? It's 20 years?

16:23Yeah.

16:24James Horncastle:I mean, even then, Marcello Lippi, who was the coach of the national team in 2006, and then he basically went on a sabbatical, smoked cigars on his yacht off the Tuscan coast. When he came back, he was complaining about the mix of players in Serie A. You know, he was already talking then about the fact that there are only 40 % of players to choose from in Serie A. 60 % were foreign. But as you guys well know, that is the same in the Premier League. Yeah, the Premier League has exactly the same issue. Also, plenty of countries have had success without their national league being dominated by those players.

17:07So that just doesn't really wash, does it, as an excuse anymore? No.

17:12James Horncastle:And as we've seen with England, England has still been able to put in all the EPPP kind of reforms that have allowed young players to come through for a pathway to be there. It feels in our case that we've never had so many talented, creative tens and wingers. And that's been despite that mix in the Premier League. So as you say, that doesn't wash. I think to some extent that's quite a political argument as well. I've already heard that argument made over the last 48 hours. The government in Italy at the moment, Giorgio Malone, is very, shall we say, nationalistic. It's about family tradition, putting Italians first.

18:01James Horncastle:So it's unsurprising to hear that argument made. Demetri Albertini, who used to play for AC Milan, was an Italy international. He was the vice president of the Italian Football Federation from 2006, I think, to 2014. And he was talking the other day and he said, you know, if we fail to qualify, they'll talk about the need to make reforms. And we've made reforms. We've spent 16 years sort of making reforms. And they just, they either haven't worked or it's still taking time so is he saying those reforms are about

18:38Gabby:bringing young players through and the academies is that is that what Albertini is saying I mean you mentioned that the the sort of 2010 going out in the group as I Roberto Baggio came up with a plan back in 2010 another Italian legend to change the academy system or get more young players involved and we've had previous conversations about you know Italy is a successful sporting nation in other sports me and Gabby have talked about the men's rugby union team and how through all of their terrible run they were actually focusing on bringing kids through and getting their under 20s sorted to then benefit the senior team so what is going wrong with young footballers in Italy that isn't happening in tennis or rugby union in that country?

19:32James Horncastle:Football in Italy is such a big part of the culture and it's such a big industry that people are always looking to profit from it. And so even at grassroots level, it's become very expensive now to send your kids to a football academy, a football school. In fact, Like this was one of the things that the youth movement of Giorgio Maloney's party were kind of shouting through the megaphone at the Italian FA's headquarters this morning. The prices, the costs that it is to put your kids through. So in a cost of living crisis, you know, some parents are choosing not to put their kids into football because it's just too expensive for them.

20:16James Horncastle:And there are other sports which are more accessible. Wow, that in itself is a statement about Italian football. is quite mind-blowing. Yeah, but football is still the number one sport in Italy. You know, I've just said how big a part of the culture it is. No matter how many front pages Yannick Sinner is on or Kimi Antonelli is on, yeah, the most read newspaper is Gazetta della Sport. Yeah, it's got a bigger readership than the broadsheets in Italy. And that's because it's still a football mad country with 20, 30 pages of football every morning. So I don't think kids are going to stop playing football, but they do have a problem of access when they get into these academies, these football schools.

21:06James Horncastle:We've talked about this, that these schools make coaches, they don't make players. Because, chap, as we were joking the other day about, what will I do if Italy failed to qualify for the World Cup?