How Sebastian Sawe broke two-hour Marathon record... and will it stand?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. You break the world record, whoop whoop, the marathon world record, brilliant, you came third.

0:09Mark Pougatch:This is going to be a thing, Joshua's signed up. I mean I'll still fall for it and get into it, it just doesn't feel quite the same. The guy is just so laid back. Unbelievable. Because I don't want to take away from his talent and ability, but it's a question I think all of us normal people are asking.

0:35Welcome to the Sports Agents. Hi, Gabby. Hello, Mark. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. Have you recovered from the marathon? Not that you ran it, obviously, but...

0:42Mark Pougatch:Do you know what? I get home and I feel like I've run a marathon. It is such a long broadcast, but it is, as I always say, the greatest of days. And it was perfect in every way this year. The weather could not have been lovelier, which makes such a difference when you're standing outside from seven o 'clock in the morning until three o 'clock in the afternoon, not being wind or rain beaten. It just was a whole different kind of perspective on things. But the stories were just amazing. Not obviously that the human interest stories are always fantastic. But as I've always joked with you, sometimes we kind of ignore the elites a little bit.

1:13Mark Pougatch:You know, there's some very fast people at the front. And this year we obviously couldn't because history was made. And to be standing there at that finish and watch somebody finish a marathon in under two hours, not one, but two men, was spectacular. And I woke up buzzing on Monday morning. Well, that is going to be the main focus of the pod today. And Steve Cran will join us in a little while to talk that. But here's some of the other things that have caught our eye over the course of the weekend. I mean, I am honoured, first of all, I have to say I'm honoured to be working with the sports presenter of the year.

1:46Congratulations.

1:47Mark Pougatch:Well, I'm sure as your silver medal, which was hung around your neck last night, metaphorically, you must have just been a half a centimetre a Sebastian Saway to Pajelcha just behind but no it was very lucky I don't do it come second Gabby the second is irrelevant apparently matching the day one sports programme of the year as well and the sports agents got a bronze so it was a successful night but well done, congratulations deflet, deflet, deflet, let's talk about something else

2:25so uncomfortable how cynical are you then that her and Joshua will happen

2:35Mark Pougatch:well oh sorry her and Joshua her and Joshua would be one for the ages but Joshua Fury that's why you got the silver Joshua Fury

2:51Mark Pougatch:Joshua Fury we're now just a couple of weeks ago we were talking about this happening potentially at Croke Park weren't we and now we're hearing that yeah this is going to be a thing Joshua's signed up so you know the noises are getting louder aren't they we still haven't got a date and we still haven't got an actual venue confirmed but it's looking more likely are you feeling less like well i i'm only for i was talking to bunsey last night but bunsey actually got got quite strict with me and and told me off for being for being overly cynical because any answer that he gave me last night i just kept going okay when when nobody nobody can say when at the moment but he is he is adamant that this will that this will now go ahead and it will more than and he's also So from what you're saying to me, it won't be in Saudi.

3:48Obviously, it won't be at Croke Park, which was that original rumor. It could be in Cardiff. It could be at Wembley. So they were the venues that he threw up. The only thing is Joshua has a fight beforehand, which is against an Albanian called Christian Trenger. And that's at the end of July. now Prenger has got a decent record 20 wins, 1 defeat and he anytime you go into a ring there must be a threat and Buncey said Joshua will win but if he didn't then Joshua would probably want a rematch so then if a rematch comes into it then Fury gets, that can get kicked down the road a little bit until there is a date and a venue and a deal, I just question it.

4:43Mark Pougatch:That fight is for Anthony Joshua just to make sure that it's a warm-up fight, right? And I know you said, I don't want to remember if he loses, but he will have to win it for his own confidence that he can take on Fury and know that he has mentally got the capacity to do this after what's happened in his personal life. 100%. Two best friends. And so can I get into a ring and be the fighter I was before that happened to me? so i think it's almost like an insurance policy for him isn't it to know that he can do it and then potentially we get the date and then we get the date and the venue but and then there's also but then there's also the the that feeling of god i wish we'd had it five years ago yeah years ago that's the that's the other problem with it isn't it because you want yeah you you want everything at the elite level and at the peak of their powers.

5:37And you want it to be spine-tingling. And there's just an element of me is just like, it doesn't feel like it would have done... I mean, I'll still fall for it and get into it and watch it and all of that. It just doesn't feel quite the same.

5:51Mark Pougatch:Our dinner conversation last night, I'm out here with Prime, ahead of the Champions League semi-final between PSG and Bayern Munich, didn't turn to Luis Enrique's incredible style of football or Harry Kane's goal scoring perhaps. It was the Fury documentary, or series, which is out at the moment. And Alan Shearer has been watching it and pretty much regaled every scene. He's addicted to it and seems to be enamoured by the Fury family, completely taken by their seven-year-old son who's got a potty mouse. So, yeah, I feel like I need to dip into that because it gives you the full 360 of this family and their crazy life, let's be honest.

6:34Mark Pougatch:It's a crazy life. I think you're going to say Talk was dominated in Paris ahead of a Champions League semi-final. I think you're going to say it was dominated either by Rochdale against York in the National League, which was one of the most... Well, John Champion was on the table and he's a York fan. So has he recovered? He just seems as happy as he ever... You know, John's a very cheery chap, but he does seem very particularly happy. Yeah. Or the Scottish title race, which just gets better and better and better. And it's not the fact that there are three teams going for the title in Hearts and Rangers and Celtic.

7:11It's not even the fact that Hearts are managing to still keep Rangers and Celtic at bay a little bit. And Rangers fell away this weekend. It's the fact that every game is, I mean, is bonkers. I mean, it is absolutely... Hibs, Hibs Hearts on Sunday in the Edinburgh Derby, I know you were coming back from the marathon. Hibs had two players sent off, including their goalkeeper after a 14 minutes. And they were 1-0 up. And when Hearts got it back to 1-0 and they were peppering them, they still didn't get the winner until, I don't know, five minutes from time or something. Every game is mad.

7:48Mark Pougatch:And the significance of Hearts breaking into this duopoly and potentially winning this league. Obviously, we've talked on the podcast before about the Tony Bloom influence and how their recruitment has been so clever over the last year or so. Do you think this is for life now? This is it. They're in there and they're going to be a force and this is going to be, you know, forever. They're one of the most fascinating title challenges in Europe, isn't it? If you can have a three-course race every season. Oh, it'd be amazing. It'd be amazing. But I think from a heart's point of view, I don't think they could care less whether it's for life or not.

8:29I think they just want it to be for another four games. And I was talking to Chris Sutton about this last night as well. I think the fact that Rangers and Celtic have been so off at times this season, and at different points of the season, there's been such anger within their fan bases towards their ownership, the board, managers, so on and so forth, that I did sort of say to Chris, and I managed to get out of him, I do think if Hearts don't win it, it would be actually really quite sad because it would mean that even with them at the tilt that they are at, that Celtic or Rangers, after a really difficult, infighting, mediocre season, still managed to get over the line.

9:20Mark Pougatch:Yeah, no, you're right. You're right, I think. And also, I think for every neutral in this, that is the fairy tale story, isn't it? To be able to do this. I mean, you know, you look at the biggest fairy tale kind of in football over the last 25 years potentially was Leicester winning the Premier League 10 years ago. And you look at kind of how they have fallen away and relegated from the championship this season. And, you know, it isn't certain that you will ever do that again. So, yeah, I guess it's got to be now or never for them, potentially, because you don't know how Celtic and Rangers are going to come back fighting next season.

9:54No, and because the Scottish system does this split, it means every game is huge. It's not like...

10:03Mark Pougatch:It's clever, isn't it? It's great, isn't it, actually? Because it gives you that kind of immediacy of like, oh my God, this is urgent. You've got top, you've got bottom, and they're all fighting away. So it means next Monday, it's Hearts Rangers at Time Castle and Hearts haven't lost at home since last year. So since last season, I think Dundee beat them at the end of April last year. Obviously, there's one more old firm to go. And then the final day of the season, Hearts go to Celtic. So the games are huge, huge. I know you didn't see the London Marathon coverage, but I did an interview with Daddy Pig.

10:44Oh, no, I have seen that. Now I have. I missed the marathon.

10:48Mark Pougatch:The one on the day or the one that I did when he was training a few weeks ago? The one that you did when he was training, which amuses me because I know some of the behind-the-scenes stories. And then on the day he came up with Joe Wicks on the morning, when they came up on the platform with all the celebs who were running, And the night before I was sitting on my hotel bed, kind of going through my scripts and I thought of a really good gag. And I actually kind of laughed at myself in my hotel room. I've got to get this in. Right. So I'm going to I'm going to deliver it for you now because Daddy Pig appreciated it.

11:22Mark Pougatch:And so did Joe Wicks and hopefully the watching public. So at the end of the interview, I said, look, take care out there. And, you know, obviously protect yourself against chafing. You must put some cream on. We don't want any pork scratching. That's it. I'm here every night. Five minutes. um i also if people are watching this i also like the way you leaned into the camera to deliver the just to deliver the punchline and then and then joe wicks said oh that's almost as good as your joke the other day because i'd interviewed them on the wednesday at the running show when i told him not to pull a hamstring so i got a chance to put that one in as well so um and then i spent the next hour you know on the way to the finish line which is what we do we do the start trying to think of more pig related jokes but of course because he ran in under six hours he didn't get on BBC One later on so I never got to chat to him.

12:16Did you have another load written out?

12:18Mark Pougatch:Oh they were all up here Mark they were all up here. I was ready to go I was trying to think of something with oink but I couldn't I couldn't you know I couldn't get there but it didn't matter in the end we had possibly one of the great moments in sport of the you know of the decade in terms of running a sub to our marathon, Sebastian Salway came into the studio and I was gutted that I didn't think of the line. He came, he Salway, he conquered, which was on the BBC Sport website. I was like, oh, why didn't I think of that one? I mean, and there you are, dear listener, in the last two minutes. That's how you get to be a gold standard award-winning sports presenter.

12:56Mark Pougatch:It's fantastic. So we've got a bit more chat, of course, on the marathon just about to come up. Steve Cram joins us next.

13:14Mark Pougatch:Steve, great to see you. What a day Sunday was. It is always one of the most joyous in the sporting calendar, but to add into the mix proper sporting history, to be there and see a barrier which I think nobody really believed in, especially in London, which is not known for being a quick course we were ever going to see. Just put into context for us how special that was. Yeah, actually, I've been asked that question. I'll put it in context. I mean, my era was the four-minute man, not that I was around, but you grew up being told what a great thing it was. And it hung as the greatest sporting moment of the 20th century and all the rest of it, and certainly for our sport, massive thing.

13:55And because you've got these four minutes, two hours, you know you've got these kind of uh nice easy they're not really a barrier they're just a time on at the end of the day but the two hour thing seemed as though we were a long long long way off it and you have to remember how people break used to break the marathon record by a little bit you know 10 seconds five seconds two or three seconds occasionally so if you're going to go for a commentated on canucci in london in 2002 and he ran 2-5 and it had taken steve jones ran 2-7 in chicago in 1987 you know so you so every 20 years you're moving on about two minutes so imagine to say you know if you'd said you jump ahead and in 2026 uh someone's going to run under sub two hours yeah i mean no i wouldn't have i think it's only because of what's happened in the last two three years with shoes and everything else and that it's been part of the conversation a lot more and obviously when elliot did his um staged event if you like where you're taking out all the variables that would normally be part of a race and then so you go okay physically it's possible um but in a race and like you said in london you know that's the thing for me i think that that could have happened in berlin perhaps last year perhaps this september so I genuinely feel delighted, privileged whatever you want to say, that it happened in London we were there, I got to commentate on it, you know a special moment and great for the sport as well the world is full of runners now and that means that although they probably have not a lot of concept of what it takes to run some two-hour marathon, at least they understand that the the kind of context of running that far, that far, all things.

15:50So, yeah, all good. But it's a cut-through moment, isn't it? And you can judge it in so many different ways. But I was – I mean, this is slightly irrelevant – but I was at a netball tournament in Chorley on Sunday morning. You were? Yes, yes. Do you know what? No, Steve. My daughter's team finished bottom of their group, and then I had to wait an hour and a half for the 19th, 20th playoff spot because you can never just go out of a group in a tournament. You've got to play plates and bowls and vases. Anyhow, by the way, but I got a text from my 18-year-old daughter saying, oh, my God, Dad, somebody's just run under two hours in the marathon.

16:27Now, I would have never expected a marathon text off my 18-year-old daughter. And I would imagine that happens in households up and down. That is a cut-through moment for running. yeah i actually said in commentary when i you know you have to be really careful with commentary i've been in races or commentating races where super fast times we've been on world record we've been on sub two hour in london before but you know you have to wait and the way the kind of algorithm works with the projected times it we know what those last few miles can be like so you you cannot get ahead of yourself and go oh my god it's good so i was kind of creeping to it's definitely gonna me a course record then it was okay could the world record be on two hours uh zero minutes 35 seconds and then kind of when he was at 40k when he went through 40 41k because he still had kajelcha to deal with he's still in a race and anything can happen can they can fall apart they can you know they can both be so tired they slow down and then and that's why i said in comedy when they turned at Westminster they've still got a best part of a mile to go and I said right run out and grab people because if there's anyone nearby who's you know having a cup of tea or is you know doing the garden or whatever drag them inside because they'll want to see this oh yeah I saw that on the telly yeah so I was I was there watching when it happened so I'm glad I'm glad your daughter was one of those you're right I've had I've had friends and some people I haven't spoke to in years from America and Australia and you know just just there were people in America waking up to it going what happened you know is this for real but yeah I look it it will it will something that will be be pleased that we were part of and and got to see I'm sure

18:16Mark Pougatch:I uh my my version of that Jebbers was my mum telling me she cried um when it when he crossed the line under two hours um yeah she said oh I was I was in tears um and normally we get in quite a few moments where we're in tears at the marathon because there are some incredible stories but for the sport itself and you know to take center stage and and and that beautiful kind of synergy and that dna that runs between the four minute mile and the marathon which is the bracer family as you um pointed out and then we discussed with hugh bracer who's the race director on sunday felt particularly special you know that there is that link if you want to expand on that further steve yeah and and and i'm gonna sort of continue it myself this week which i'll get on to so yeah the the um first four minute mile they needed help then and chris brachia uh was one of the pacemakers for sir roger bannister very good friend of roger's and and uh chris chatway and chris did the did the donkey work to get him to the point where he could break four minutes um and then chris you know went on to you know become an olympic champion himself but it but then was the man who started uh the london marathon in back in 81 and now his son hugh bracer um is in charge as the director of of london marathon london marathon events and you know is is a is a a man who doesn't kind of he gets very enthusiastic hugh but i've never seen him like he was on sunday you know it was it was a lovely moment i'm sure and he kept saying for London.

19:51He kept talking about London. He goes, London, the UK, we've broken the four minute mile and now we've broken, you know, sub two hours. So he had a role in that. His dad had a role in the, in the four minute mile. I'm going to Oxford on this weekend coming because the Bannister Miles, which are a commemorative event that was created over the last two, three years when, when we had the 70th anniversary of the four minute mile. So I'm there organizing the community mile and there's elite mile as well uh on bank holiday monday um so there's a lovely as you said coming together of it you know but hugh being all for all of us you know the impact for the sport is massive we've got a bid in gabby as you might know for the world championships back in the uh in the stadium for 2029 this all helps you know it shows that that we put on great events in the uk and and And if we give people a chance, they come and perform well as well.

20:48So it's good news all around. But, yeah. And by the way, we should let Sebastian Solway know this is so impactful because the guy is just so laid back.

20:59Mark Pougatch:Unbelievable. He was walking around the hotel on Sunday night, you know, and everybody, even Monday morning as well, people won't have their picture. And he just was, yeah, kind of, you know. And actually the rest of the room, they have a bit of a presentation. It's only really the athletes and a few others at the hotel. They have, this sounds really silly, doesn't it? It's so us. The trophies for the British winners, so Eilish, Mohamed. Mohamed was the first. They're like this big. They're huge. They're old trophies that were, you know. The guy who runs Sub-Tiara has got a little cup, you know.

21:37Yeah, they said they're going to get something for him, you know, somewhere down the line. A T-shirt. Yeah, a T-shirt, you know. sub two you know um i don't know so yeah he's just so it was it was like matter of fact to him

21:52Mark Pougatch:yeah you know he said he can run quicker as well hasn't he well i think he can i did an event well i think he can i did an event with um jacob kip limo who came second who i mean how about this you come you break the world record the marathon world record brilliant you came third and for Kajelcha who came, who ran sub two in his first marathon. So I think all those things tell you Kip Limo's going to get better, definitely. Salwa is really, he's only his fourth marathon is at the beginning of his journey. You've thrown in the legs of Kajelcha. So yeah, I think they will run faster now. I think there will be a bunch of guys.

22:30I was talking to Chepta Guy and Geoffrey Cormoro yesterday afternoon at the same event. And they both said, look, everybody will now think they can do this. Can I just ask about the shoes then? And, you know, you are an Olympic runner. You have been at the, you know, at the forefront of competing here and you've covered loads of marathons between the two of you. How much, how much difference are they making? Massive. Now, how much do you want to kind of, that's up for... Because I don't want to take away from his talent and ability, but it's a question I think all of us normal people are asking.

23:14Mark Pougatch:Is it also possible, Steve, in answering that question, to say how? So his shoes, I can tell you that part of the debate on Sunday night was one or two other shoe companies kind of going, because there's a race, it's a race, it's like an F1 car thing. It's technology, it's you kind of having better signs, better knowledge that that that you're you can put in the technology to allow you to be the number one provider of the car the shoe the whatever the golf club so um each of here it was three answers did you pick it up gabby when when he put it off your hand yeah okay the next best one is about six ounces so even the three ounces ish difference every single time you put your foot down now you cannot just have a light shoe that falls apart so the stability has to be there but yes the answer is mark you've got a combination of three four things which came together a few years ago and they've continued to improve on so you've got foam which is incredibly light but strong so that foam technology is improved immensely you then have a carbon um part of the shoe just just a sliver of carbon in there which which helps with the stability a little bit as well but it also uh we're we're into kind of energy retention here with with with running shoes or with running obviously you want to the the less energy your legs can put into the motion of going forward the less tired those legs are going to be all right particularly over a marathon so you've got the carbon you've got the foam and the the stack height we talk about and the rocker on the front so the rocker on the front so basically what we're trying to do is to put you into almost a falling motion on every stride you're almost falling forward with every stride is you're putting your foot down.

25:22If you can think about, I don't know how you run these days, but me, I'm like breaking every strap. You know, it's almost like you're not flowing forward. So the shoe, the shape of the shoe, the stack, the carbon, the foam, all of these things, this is what they're all playing with. The Federation decided a limit on the height of the stack, but they've made the shoes lighter, stronger. you might only wear these once they're 450 pound a pop right if you want to buy them they went on sale the day before by the way if there's a prototype which these were they have to be