Is VAR CHAOS masking Man United's mess?

0:02Gabby Agbonlahor:This is a global production.

0:04Mark Goldbridge:Where's the accountability? When does somebody take responsibility or something change? We just kind of seem to go around in a loop of nonsense that's getting, for me, more and more annoying. This is red meat and I think at times it's used as a way to weaponise the idea that VAR shouldn't exist. There is always an element of subjectivity with the decisions that they see. If you've got the facts at your disposal and you could have cleared that up very quickly, oh, we can't look at that. Well, you managed to use that earlier in the season.

0:36Gabby Agbonlahor:Footballers have a responsibility to each other, don't they, Nadem? We don't want players to be nice, nice, nice with the other players. Like, careers are on the line. Moments really matter.

0:59Gabby Agbonlahor:Hello, welcome to the Sports Agents. Hi, Gabby. Hey, Nadem. A hectic sporting weekend. Yeah, very good one though. Loved it. Very, very good one.

1:07Mark Goldbridge:Yeah. Had the whole weekend off work. Watched more sport than I have done for, I'd say, weeks. Just crammed in so much. Went to a live rugby game. Watched a lot of tennis. Loved the ultimate championships. Didn't watch loads of the Solheim Cup, but kept across that thanks to radio. so it's been yeah it's been an absolute kind of bounty hasn't it this weekend

1:29Gabby Agbonlahor:the Solheim Cup was just two consecutive weekends of team golf with the Walker Cup the previous week and then the Solheim Cup and it was oh it's been brilliant I liked it especially off being off the back of the Walker Cup the week before and for all the team side of it foursomes four balls all this stuff in this team event it still comes down to the singles which is something like in some ways they're very much used to like last week with the Walker Cup after I think the US won the morning session on the last day. It was like, well, this is done then, isn't it? Yeah. And the singles, bang. And then as was Gabby was saying before, I enjoyed the World Ultimate Championships as well.

2:05But I don't know if that's just because I'm an athletic sicko though, if you know what I mean. Well, we are going to talk in more detail about that later in the show.

2:12Mark Goldbridge:So nicely segued there, Nadem. Thank you very much. That's coming up. And as well as performances, there's a bit I want to say about… Gabby will get you a job on the one show. There's a bit I want to say about the whole format of that, actually, which is quite interesting and the look of it and some nice attempts at innovation. But we can discuss that a little bit later on. There's a little bit of trouble potentially at Old Trafford that I think we need to get into. Chappers will no doubt have a take on that. And of course, we've got to talk about VAR. He's shaking his head. He's got nothing to say about Old Trafford.

2:45Mark Goldbridge:So stand by your beds, everybody. And that could be an empty section. But I think you probably will have something to say about what went on yesterday. because obviously the whole match has been distilled down into controversy because of far. So it's ended up just being a load of graphics and a load of conversation about angles and explanations and then eventually apology. And what happens with these things is because as we've already discussed, there's so much going on in the landscape of sport and football. Everybody will move on. Where's the accountability? when does this when does somebody take responsibility or something change we just we just kind of seem to go around in a some kind of loop of of nonsense that's getting for me more and more annoying well well well okay so i'll i'll take the lead on this for now since chappers's mic isn't working uh say is that when we're um when people say they're like seeking accountability like accountability will be there amongst referees and referees do make mistakes and have made mistakes continually i think my issue one of my issues with yesterday is a bigger issue it's a bigger issue in the fact that when vr works well we skip over it we don't recognize it when we see that it doesn't then it almost feels like it's this huge pile on to say well it's not worth it i think the two issues yesterday like i personally don't think that I think most people that I've seen in my Orbit, maybe it's anecdotal, they believe that It was either going to be two reds or nothing at all For Foden and Bruno Fernandes That one, you know, depends on which side of the internet You get, you sort of see football From, but then the offside So my mind Was actually swayed with the offside because Three years ago, Bruno Fernandes scored A goal in a Manchester derby against It was a point where Marcus Rashford was played through on goal and he's running from an offside position.

4:43And as a consequence, I think it was Manuel Kanji and Kyle Walker were sort of trying to defend against him, thinking he's offside. And then Bruno Fernandes came and scored first time. And all City players put their hand up and said, but he's offside. And then at this point, the discourse online was that, well, Marcus Rastri didn't touch the ball, so he's not interfering. But I think anyone that's played football before knows that somebody can be interfering without touching the ball because you have to take them seriously. But because that goal was given, in my mind, I thought, well, I guess that's the way that it's going to be.

5:11And then as a consequence, when I saw that goal yesterday with the position of Enzo Fernandes, I was like, well, that's the same as the goal three years ago, so it doesn't matter. And then this goal starts to really file through. And there's so much confusion, as you guys have said. Everyone probably knows verbatim what the rule is now, but they still don't understand why it happened. And then the referees association, they're having to say something after the game. And I think the accountability will come because, firstly like pro pro they are quite accessible they did release a statement they will be talking to those referees that were involved and people not necessarily won't be punished but maybe they'll not necessarily be on the next game and i think that's something that's been the case for a very very long time but again this is red meat and i think at times it's used as a way to weaponize the idea that var shouldn't exist but if you look at other places without var you see a whole lot more mistakes and people aren't really moving on from them in my opinion my thing is the more i think the more they have tried to help referees the more complicated they have made it and that

6:22Gabby Agbonlahor:is kind of what it feels like to me and that could be with handball it could be with offside that nowadays, and if you look at it from us as broadcasters, there aren't that many, or it doesn't feel like, there aren't that many shows now where you have a show where you don't have to put up a law or a statement at some point as a graphic. and when you put up a law and the two that I suppose you go to most are handball and offside and they are sort of either two or three pages for what essentially should be a simple game you do wonder where you are ending up it's almost as if they try to include every eventuality in a rule and by doing so it makes it even more complicated

7:20Mark Goldbridge:To your point though there nadam on var var itself right which is the intervention of technology supposedly to clear up situations it feels to me it's not that that's being it's the human side of this that is the the thing that is clogging up the system and to that you know these explanations the graphics it's not actually the camera angle right it's not the it's not the line that you know the very beginning of it was like oh where's the line going to be drawn remember those simple days those why is the line so wiggly that's we've kind of you know and it feels like it's not the technology it's the human interpretation that is making it and to to mark's point so much more complicated and making it as one article i read this morning turn into rugby yeah so so um again sometimes like i'm sure there be lots of people talking about this podcast and saying i sound like a show for referees but it's just because i'm not as like anti it is other people so as a consequence i sound like i've basically got my referees badge and cards in my pocket all this i think so what they said yesterday uh pro was that they made a mistake in the judgment but that to some people means that they made a mistake allowing the goal but what they said was that they should have shown the referee the video of the goal so that he can make a subjective decision about whether it should have stood or not all the rules are still in play but for some people who are adamant that shouldn't have been a goal that's the confirmation that shouldn't shouldn't have been a goal and i think one thing you see through football in general and to be fair all sports which are refereed there is always an element of subjectivity with the decisions that they see and I think for the way that the video assistant referee works like they're there to support the referee not to override their opinion so I think it can be in some ways very tricky and also to mention what Chappas were saying, when most people fall in love with football or fall in love with a sport they don't do it according to reading the manual that is the law book or the rule book they do it based on say the loose rules this is offside this is this this is that it's never word for word it's never verbatim or whatever however with the way that you have these video assistant referees now and this is across all sports and reviews you almost have to learn the rule book when you've already established that you think you know how the game works anyway and i think that for me is the biggest test that so many people have and it makes them really uncomfortable because it says well why is this the case why is that the case and for the guys yesterday i think they've made a I, as a former defender, so there's my bias, I think the Bruno Fernandes goal three years ago and that 2-1 win shouldn't have stood.

9:51And I think the goal yesterday shouldn't have stood. But if you allow me to lightly segue here, the VAR discussion is a far bigger discussion than the fact that the game went the way that it went with what I thought was an advantage big enough for Manchester United to be able to win it itself.

10:07Gabby Agbonlahor:The other thing, which comes back to the... less of a grey area when it comes to discussing offside, but certainly a grey area when it comes to Foden and Fernandes. And probably with the Arsenal-Sunderland penalty, which Mikel Arteta was very upset about as well, is I do think that Roy Keane had a point at halftime on Sky and does have a point, and it's not the first time he said it, which footballers have a responsibility to each other, don't they, Nadam? And therefore, it's very difficult to be overly critical of referees in certain situations when footballers don't help themselves. And everybody will then go, well, we don't have a player that does that, or we don't have somebody that does that, or we don't hold or we don't grapple or we don't go down easily.

11:12Gabby Agbonlahor:Every team has them. And if players are consistently looking to get advantages by wrestling or throwing themselves to the ground easily or making more of a tackle or a supposed injury than really is the case, Roy is right, isn't he? I mean, I know there's all the attention on whether he should do this or that when it comes to the referees. So, yes or no? and I respect the message, but that is the same Roy Keane that ended Alpha England's career, Alpha England Harlan's career with that foot to the knee. So you would think there's some sort of level of care towards your peers would also be beneficial from that standpoint.

11:53And I think in some ways I'm using that as a vehicle to say that as a player, it's incredibly competitive what you do. Like careers are on the line. Moments really matter. And I think in my mind for the red card, Bruno Fernandes is sort of like baited Phil Foden. Phil Foden has done something and Bruno Fernandes has sold it really well. Because even after the incident happened, he sort of like turned towards the middle of the pitch. And listen, man, I don't know about how all pain works, but I've never seen like a 180 spin to say, ah, ref, I'm bad, ah, you know what I mean? But he's won that and that's some of the like, some of like the nuance of the sport itself, trying to find ways to you know to upset the opposition to try and get them down to 10 and I think at times as fans like we don't want players to be being nice nice nice with the other players you kind of want a fair game but then you only want a fair game until the game starts and then before you know it you're just all driven by it and I think to link another sport which we cover a lot on here I think somebody was saying I believe it was Linford Christie on the start line when it's like on your marks he'd get a little bit of the track and throw it into the lane of the opposition next to him just to be like, what's going on here?

13:09That's the level of gamesmanship that you can have even in a sport like that where you basically have your lane and you can run as quickly as you can. So I think for Bruno Fernandes, in that moment, say Phil Foden's thinking, what's going on here? Marcus Rashford's standing behind with his arms up in the air saying, I can't believe he's done that. Phil Foden's probably one of his best ways. You know what I mean? But that's the thing. When you put that shirt and when you go and play, there's 70 ,000 people in that stadium that did not want Bruno Fernandes to be checking on Phil Foden to make sure he's all right.

13:35They want to win. That's why he can hear it in the crowd. And I think for Roy, I don't remember many games where he played it in that manner. Because even going back to, say, his time when he had that rivalry with Arsenal, him and Patrick Vieira, all that stuff. They were peers. Didn't really feel like they had a duty of care towards each other, in my opinion.

13:54Mark Goldbridge:Is there... Listen, I'm not saying he's wrong, by the way. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I'm just saying sometimes the messenger has got footage as well. Like there has been a dramatic ramping up this weekend because of Arsenal, Sunderland, Sunderland Arsenal, and then the penalty. And then obviously what happened yesterday, because actually the first few weekends, I don't know about you, Chappers, but it felt like sitting there and watching all the matches over the weekend that there was this lighter touch that we'd been told. The referees were kind of briefed on having a lighter touch. and there were a lot of incidents where things were let go and matches where you felt like you weren't talking about technology or a referee.

14:32Mark Goldbridge:And so, I don't know, this weekend it just, as it was bound to, I guess, as it was bound to, it has become front and centre.

14:38Gabby Agbonlahor:But the other thing, just on offside, and I'm not joining Nadam's sort of pro, let's be a big fan of all referees. But there are most games, and bearing in mind, I see virtually the 90 minutes of every single game over the course of the weekend with a Saturday afternoon and everything else. But the number of tight calls that assistant referees get right on offside is truly, truly phenomenal. I'm not saying this isn't a kind of... I don't want United fans jumping on me for a go. But they do. They do get a phenomenal number right. but I just thought yesterday was a bad day really yeah and I in my mind I feel like people should be allowed to have a bad day and not say because it is bad day every day is a bad day and I think that's something that that's why I said before it can be weaponized against that group of individuals and the lighter touch idea that Gabby you were talking about that's come from say the pgmol like the body like listening to what like fans and other stakeholders within the game want because two seasons ago I said, oh, these reviews are taking too long.

15:49There's too much this, too much that. So then as mad as it may sound, the light of touch this weekend was based on, well, the ref says it's a red card. Did this happen? Well, yeah, this happened. So yeah, just send it off. Whereas maybe two years ago, maybe they would potentially be more to it. You know what I mean?

16:03Mark Goldbridge:I suppose what people with regard to that incident is, if you've got the facts at your disposal and you could have cleared that up very quickly, you know, oh, we can't look at that. Well, you managed to use that earlier in the season for an incident that you're saying now you can't use it for. It's inconsistency, isn't it? I think that people get a bit vexed by it as well, that one weekend something isn't apparently being able to be looked at, and two weekends ago it is. Listen, this is one of the upsides and downsides of sport, because that inconsistency is exactly what happens with players, with fan bases, with pitches, with everything.

16:40Everyone is seeking this level of light where everything will be as consistent as it comes. But if that was the case, then you wouldn't win one week and lose the next. This is all a big part of football, unfortunately, when humans are involved. That's one of the reasons why we love it, but also one of the reasons why we get the most frustrated as well.

16:55Mark Goldbridge:Okay, a quick reminder to catch up on our previous episodes on YouTube, Global Player, or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review as well if you can while you're there. Coming up, VAR may have dominated the fallout, but is that distracting from some real problems at Manchester United?

17:18Mark Goldbridge:So, we're going to talk about Manchester United, Chappers. They now have four points from four games. Can I just jump in, Gabby?

17:29Gabby Agbonlahor:Can I just jump in? NFL season got underway this weekend. The Chicago Bears beat the Carolina Panthers 59-37. 59 points. It was an offensive masterclass by the Bears. With Caleb Williams as a superstar and Ben Johnson as the head coach, it had the most points scored in the first half of any NFL game ever, I think. It was a joy to watch. I cannot believe that the team I support.

18:00Mark Goldbridge:I think they call this filibusting, don't they, when it's in the House of Parliament? I cannot believe.

18:04Gabby Agbonlahor:Whoa, don't limit it to them. I cannot believe that the team I support are so exciting to watch and just put a massive smile on my face. And I love watching them.

18:19Mark Goldbridge:Sorry, you were saying. Excellent work there. Excellent work there, Mark. You know how easy it is to just snip that out, don't you?

18:29Gabby Agbonlahor:Not if I give it as the answer to every single question that is in this section.

18:35Mark Goldbridge:The thing is about that match yesterday, when Phil Foden went off, I think we all thought we were going to be discussing, well, a narrow win to Manchester United against 10-man Manchester City. Because they capitalised on the fact that City had gone down to 10 men at home and the crowd would have been completely up for it at that point, which they were. and it is that missed opportunity is there a lack of creativity is there a lack of ambition in the team I know you're looking at this through sky blue eyes, pale blue eyes so you know it's a very different mood in your household to Chappers but there's something just not clicking this season with Manchester United

19:25Mark Goldbridge:you you spent a large portion of the day yesterday with with uh Wayne Rooney and he's very good mates with Michael Carrick what's his take uh I think his take um and I'm

19:40Gabby Agbonlahor:sure I mean said it a little bit last night and uh I'm sure it will be everywhere as well is and this is my take as well which is either this is not all on this is four games into a season and this isn't really all on Michael Carrick um and obviously the fan base was maybe a little bit split as to whether Michael Carrick should get the job or not and I would probably say match-going fans were more wanting Carrick than maybe the the social media universe I think I think the feeling from Wayne, and I would go along with this, is those above him have not built this squad particularly well for the season ahead.

20:26Gabby Agbonlahor:And I don't necessarily think they've built this squad particularly well over the last few years. And I think it's those above who you have to, A, question how they've built that squad, and then you go even further to the owners and the protests against the owners and go, you know, Manchester City spent, and Chelsea, spent on one midfielder nearly what United spent on three midfielders. So if you're this massive commercial behemoth, I know you haven't had Champions League football for two years, how have you got yourself into a mess whereby you're spending on three players what your rivals are basically spending on one?

21:09Mark Goldbridge:and therefore in a nutshell you put all of three each individual midfielder was over 100 million I think two things can be true and I don't necessarily think Michael Carrick's doing a bad job but what I would say is for all the issues that you've mentioned which I think are like valid issues especially for people who you know support the club and want the club to kick on from positions that they've been in the last few years but then from a purely footballing standpoint would you have expected to have four points after four games based on the fixtures when they first came out, Chappers? Would you expect them to have that few?

21:42Gabby Agbonlahor:No, I would have probably expected seven. I think you could have gone with... Look, I think this is a Premier League where a lot of, with the exception of Arsenal, and maybe actually the way City have started, I think anybody can beat anybody else. I genuinely do. Home or away, I think anybody can beat anybody else. And I know it's early days and therefore things may settle down. But Fulham really could have beaten Liverpool on Saturday. Hull definitely could have beaten Chelsea on Saturday afternoon. So there are enough. Everything feels very, very balanced and equal at the moment. I do agree with you when you say that the league is in this position to where it feels like anyone could sort of beat anyone.

22:31But when you are a team, in my opinion, like Manchester United who finished third last season who for as much as the balance might be a bit off have brought in reinforcements someone like a Telemans who's hugely experienced you've got somebody like a main who playing I still would have expected more and yesterday I'll be completely transparent here when Phil Foden got sent off I was basically throwing stuff around the house and I was like well what's the point in this game now because I thought based on the team that I thought United were that that would mean especially in the context of playing at home it being a derby that that should lead to three points for United and the fact that he didn't makes me sort of wonder from a footballing standpoint whether my expectations of them are unrealistic because I'm with you like Arsenal feel like continuity and that's a great position for them to be in given the fact that it just won the Premier League and they've won these last three or four games in all the competitions across in different sort of different ways sometimes it's dominating possession sometimes it's the grip going to Sunderland sometimes it's hanging on or 1-0, whatever it is.

23:32I get that. You can see Maresca City starting to improve, but you don't know what it's going to be like in the trenches in months to come. But I don't see why United couldn't have been a side that was more consistent.