Klopp, Zidane, Pep: Why every nation wants their IDENTITY back?

0:02This is a global production. Obviously there's been lots of debate around the Argentina game and I think it's probably been made worse because Argentina more or less laid an egg in the final. These are just theories and guesses, Nathan. I love these. Here we go. Tin hat, let's go. So when somebody like Tuchel talks about that identity, a lot of it comes from trauma. How on earth can what happened in 1986 or 1998 have an effect on you as an individual? Most of these guys weren't born chappers. Keegan is an ideal in Hamburg.

0:36Hello, welcome to the Sports Agents. Gabby away at the moment. How are you, Nadem? Yeah, I'm very good. Also away, but still putting that work in. Even though the World Cup has ended, international football is still dominating, whether it be Jurgen Klopp to Germany or Pep Guardiola turning down Italy. so we will talk about that today. We will also talk about Kevin Keegan and what a man he was because you played under him, Nadim. We'll get on to it a little bit later, but he was one of your managers. Yeah, he certainly was. He was my first manager. He gave me my debut and basically the 16-year career that I had, it starts with him and to be very fortunate to be able to have spent time with him, to have learned from him.

1:21I'm sure I'm going to do the best that I can to make sure I give him the credit he deserves Sebastian Stafford Bloh from the athletic German football expert joins us where where are you this fine afternoon Seb I'm in Hamburg Mark I'm in Hamburg which is lovely actually very temperate Hamburg about 23 degrees over here oh perfect perfect what is um what has been before we come on to Klopp himself what has been the reaction to his appointment eventually because it has felt like there has been a clamour for it for a while. Yeah, so that probably needs a little bit of context, Mark. So I think probably since about 2006 when he appeared as a pundit on German television's coverage of the 2006 World Cup, Jurgen Klopp has occupied this place as being the national team trainer on TV, if that makes sense, the television's version of the Bundes trainer.

2:17You know, he's able to explain complicated things in a simple way. He's the smiling, happy face of football. And so when Klopp comes in, you take away all the negativity that a lot of German football fans feel towards the team. And they haven't really learned to lose yet. If you think about the history of the nation in World Cup terms, and yes, they've had three successive tournaments where it hasn't gone well. it's still a country that expects to be in the semifinals and which treats anything other than a semifinal appearance as failure and so they're not able to process it in the way that unfortunately in England we learn how to do and so Paraguay happens penalty shootout to add insult to injury and there's a lot of flailing a lot of finger pointing and you know and Klopp comes in almost immediately and it becomes a here's the guy who's going to make it better he's always been a transcendent figure so even people who aren't necessarily day-to-day fans of the game they're able to understand he'll make it better it's Klopp we know Klopp we understand Klopp we trust him what he represents is what we want for the national team.

3:20So could you tell me this so the perception about Jurgen Klopp in England I believe is is quite a clear one you see the fact that he's been very successful more so with like a some of the past type feeling they know what he's like as a person the way he handles the media and so on and I thought that would be the way that many Germans would perceive Klopp but then how was he perceived when he took part in the whole RB hiring as such because that's very much from my perspective of German football something which for the most part the nation are very much against the team that runs in the same way that RB does it's a great question Nedim and I think it comes in it needs to be answered in two parts I think with football fans there was a deep sense of betrayal Klopp has stood against what ebby leipzig represents um for a very long time he was he has spoken out publicly in favor of um fan-owned clubs 50 plus one model and spoken against the um the red bull model which for those who don't probably understand it uh ebby leipzig do conform to the 50 plus one rule they're just built in a way which is a little bit artificial and that's caused a lot of resentment amongst a population where um there's some pretty hard natuide against hard natuides against commercialism so when it happened when he was hired as their global head of soccer on the terraces at games he saw a lot of banners at Mainz and at Borussia Dortmund basically calling out what they saw as an hypocrisy what I would say though is there's a difference between the match going fan and the country as a whole so Klopp with the country is the guy you see in advert breaks he's the person that promotes uh uh moisturizer gym equipment vice beer financial planning products everything and so he has that level of celebrity which you know allows him to speak to you know my mother-in-law who's not a football fan but my father-in-law who is and there's a real difference between how he's perceived between those two groups of people and so um conflating what you see on the terraces with how germany in quote unquote um with how germany season it's two very different things and I don't think I don't think it's that impactful I think you can if you if you step out from the noise that that football creates and this is the same in Germany as it is in England and look at it objectively from a kind of a slightly more adjacent perspective it's not really an it's not really a factor I don't think but again this sort of maybe a little bit of history of Klopp maybe saying one thing but then doing something else his press conference was quite strident towards the media in a if you behave badly i will turn away um i've seen how you've treated nagelsman and tuchel so as the country's world cup coach on television has he always been fair and generous he was until the most recent world cup which was actually full of scandal.

6:22Klopp was a pundit for Magenta TV which is a streaming service out here. He worked alongside Thomas Muller and they had the rights to every game including all of the German matches. Before the tournament started Klopp was asked to give his predicted line-up for the Chris Alge and he left Jamal Musiala out and replaced him with Denis Undov. Cue national controversy and all sorts of stuff going on in the media and what does Klopp I know etc. The next night, he addresses what's happened and says, hey, don't worry, it's still Julian Nagelsmann picking the team. Everyone's like, yes, ha ha ha. And he says, for now.

6:59And everyone's like, for now? What do you mean for now? Because the worst kept secret in German football is if, you know, had 2026 gone badly for Julian Nagelsmann, the favourite to replace him with would have been Jurgen Klopp. And so you had this ridiculous situation where he said it and it hung in the air. It was incredibly awkward. the elders of German football, people like Stefan Effenberg, Andreas Möller, Lothar Matthäus, dragged him across the coals for undermining Nagelsmann's position. And elders of German football do like to talk. They like an opinion, chappers. They have never had an unexpressed thought, as far as I'm aware.

7:37And then you had this situation where this great controversy built between them. And then when Nagelsmann came to talk to the media after games at the World Cup, there would be Klopp. It is really interesting that Jurgen Klopp would be in that sort of position to be on the sideline. Like, why would he choose to take that job on primarily? Especially given, say, at this last World Cup, he's also stuck up for, say, Tuchel from an English standpoint. You know, he sticks up for these managers and coaches, rather. So why would he, why do you think he would have put himself on the sideline like that?

8:08I think these are just theories and guesses, Nadim. But a couple of things. I love these. Here we go. It's important. Let's go. just half-baked thoughts just live television is central to what our idea of Klopp is and his understanding of how important it is to I suppose bring people along on the journey he's a very good communicator he wouldn't have been a success at Dortmund Mainz or Liverpool without that ability so there's that side to it I think there's also a kind of this is what Jurgen Klopp does during World Cup he plays an important role for for the German for the German viewer back home.

8:46The other thing, and I think this is really important, when Paraguay happened, you'll both remember this, the penalty shootout ends and the cameras, certainly in Germany, cut to Julian Nagelsmann on the bench not really knowing how to respond. He was sort of frozen by the trauma of it, I think is probably a fair way to describe it. So that happens, Nagelsmann doesn't really know how to act, and then immediately, and this has happened at halftime too, immediately we cut to Klopp and he's diagnosing everything this needs to change this needs to be better this is why we failed and so he plays a very important role there he's explaining why things are going wrong and he's really he's the person people want to hear from in this country when things like that happen just he's a good communicator he's got great charisma he senses the mood and listen it's it's very hard to compare someone to Klopp but Nagelsmann wasn't great at sensing the mood with the media you've talked about the paraguay game and you described the germans as having a brittle character they didn't appear in the paraguay game in the ecuador game to necessarily have a belief so you can talk about styles of play and what he might implement but one thing his liverpool side had was always a belief was always a belief that they would get something it can he can he do that with this german squad with this german squad specifically I don't think so.

10:07It's not a coincidence that they haven't been successful in an international tournament really since Miroslav Kloza retired in 2014. He was their last proper goal scorer in that position. The other thing though, Young Klopp is not the only person to recognize this. It's part of the national conversation is, where are the problem solvers? Where are the players who, when things go wrong in the way that you're describing, the players who know how to react to that, whether that's an emotional response emotional response or a technical one or a an ability just to understand how to change the the momentum and the flow of games Nedim is of course much better versed in this stuff than I am but that's one of the conversations we're having here where is where are those players because even guys like Florian Wirtz Florian Wirtz is a wonderful footballer but you still need other players around him you need players with a certain a certain personality and actually if you look back at the successful German teams of the past, they were littered with that kind of personality.

11:07Look at 2014, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Neuer. These are huge characters in the global footballing sense. And they've gone and in their place are some very nice players, very nice to watch. Difference makers at kind of an international level. Would you swap, for instance, Jamal Masiala, Florian Wirtz for Jude Bellingham? I would say probably not. I would say not. you have a, you know, forgetting the technical aspect of that, you have a very different personality contained within a Bellingham versus a Musiala or a Witz or a lot of the other players in the German side. Alexander Palvovich, for instance, Lira Sane.

11:46It's different and that's a deficiency that needs to be addressed too. It's really interesting listening to you talk about, say, the German side because I always find this when I talk about, say, like the English side in England. You sort of, at times, get so, not necessarily concerned, but you look at it about what this team can do to get better. But the examples that you've given, like who are those players for the Spanish side that's just won the Euros and the World Cup? You know, because you talked about, say, the likes of Lahm, Neuer, Schweinsteiger, all this. Are those just players from a different generation?

12:17Is that a different time in football history? And is it a case of something different now? Because, you know, you wrote about how, like, Germany needs to win again and play with a recognizable style. Is it about the people or is it about the style? because you could argue for the Spanish, the biggest star in a team wasn't their most important player this tournament in Laminya Mal. Is that going to be the case going forward for other sides? I would even make it simpler, Nadem. I would say it's just a question of having conviction in a certain direction, building the core of a team. Because when, you know, it's better than, or Miles better than I do, but if you don't have players who are kind of natural core elements within a side, you need to build it, right?

12:54You need to have four or five players at the heart of a side together for a long period of time. and Germany just haven't had that. And so it's almost a case of having to grow it, not from the ground up, but to develop it properly because they don't have a, you know, if you dropped a Rodri into any midfield in the world, you'd feel pretty good about it, right? Wherever it was. And Germany don't really have that and certainly haven't had it since someone like, I'd say since Tiny Cruyff's retired. So it's quite an unsatisfying conversation in a way because there's no one answer. There isn't a silver bullet solution here, but there's a lot of things going on.

13:30Do you not think national identity, football identity is quite an unsatisfying discussion anyhow, Nadam? Because, well... Yes, Shappers, I do. It is, isn't it? It's quite boring, isn't it? Well, because I just think it's a myth in many ways. Is it possible to split identity and culture in terms of how teams want to play? Because I think that in some ways does matter. And I think from my perspective as well, like we'll continue this at some stage, but some of the talk about identity, I think it comes from people. Like if you were to ask, for example, the German team from the early 2000s, they'll say this is the way that German teams should play now.

14:15But somebody that's younger, hasn't had the same influence, hasn't had the same sort of like footballing upbringing. They've played against different people at different ages. And from my mind, I think something that's quite important in terms of understanding what a team is going to be like and what the future is going to be like is to look at the youth ranks. I think Spain, for example, in the last four under-19s championships have either made it to the semifinal or to the final. But England are the reigning champions in the last two under-21s championships. So when, for example, this is just my opinion now, when Thomas Ducal said it's not in English DNA to keep the ball, I think to myself that's interesting because most of those players spend most of the time away from the national team and at the back you could have John Stones and Mark Gay who was coached by Pep Guardiola I think you had Esri Konza right back who was coached by Unai Emery I was like okay that's interesting that's different in the midfield you've got Declan Ryaz Sally Anderson two players who were over 100 million pounds Jude Bellingham was at Real Madrid I'm like hmm football identity football identity how do they play?

15:19Like I get there's an idea about what the league represents, what the Bundesliga represents, what Serie A represents, what Premier League represents, and how the players who play within it can be affected by that. But ultimately, especially from an English standpoint, most of these guys are coached and are learning their basics in a very different way to what they were learning 20 years ago because the makeup of the teams is different. So when somebody like Tuchel talks about that identity or say somebody else talks about this identity, I think more so as well from my perspective from a fan standpoint, some of the old people that I've seen, a lot of it comes from trauma because every time there's an england game on tv to make it about england they might talk about euro 96 or like the beckham in 98 or this that and the other most of these guys weren't born chappers i know how can they form part of their identity you know what i mean yeah i mean i i had that i had that conversation with nico o'reilly which is well how on earth can what happened in 1986 or 1998 have an effect on you as an individual if you weren't if you weren't alive to to witness to witness it if you weren't alive and went through the heartache or the pain or the injustice or the anger or whatever it is yeah you're aware of it but it's more likely to be water off a duck's back at that stage isn't it but then but then what no i was gonna say it's in your dna chappers because somebody you know existed at that time so basically it just goes into you that's the way it works apparently i yeah but also but also on the DNA point of view if you aren't given the opportunity to show what you can do and this does come back to England again a little bit here, Nadam you know, maybe it wasn't in their DNA in that game because actually the changers didn't allow them to keep hold of the ball Yeah, so obviously there's been lots of debate around that Argentina game and I think it's probably been made worse because Argentina more or less laid an egg in the final against a very, very good Spanish side who made them look very, very limited.

17:23But yeah, it is interesting because I think from my perspective, my side on it is this, is like when things start going wrong and players start making incorrect decisions, you kind of want them firstly to be able to manage themselves. I think that's when you see from some of the great, some of the like bully ball teams you saw like in the late 90s, early 2000s, like these guys basically manage themselves. Then as times pass by, there's more an emphasis on like the day-to-day coaching. That's why there's more head coaches, fewer managers, you know, they're doing things differently. So I would have thought that when people start displaying poor traits, a manager would step in and make that change.

17:59Whether it's like make a big call, you know, two calls, whoever, two call Klopp. I'm sure Klopp will make the same big calls. Like as he said in the media for the World Cup, maybe he will play Dennis Undev over Jamal Musiala. Maybe that's his big call. But he's got enough standing to be able to do that. That's why he's been brought in. So from Tuchel, in my opinion, to not see that this player is tired, that player is tired, they're retreating. Bring on someone else. It doesn't matter about the name at this point. Just bring on someone else. Because again, to put it into perspective, in that England team, and of the players that he's picked for this World Cup, there were six players for England, under-21s, who've won the European Championships, which is a rare feat for English football culture.

18:41So they're not used to losing. and they're playing against people who, some of them, are the same age as them. So I think the manager, in my mind, he isn't the first problem, but he can be the strongest solution. And that's by bringing people on who will affect the dynamic of again because otherwise we'll support and substitutes. Culture is the point, though, isn't it, that Nader made, Seb, and Gareth Southgate changed. English football culture changed twofold. First, thanks to Germany beating them in the 2010 World Cup, they completely changed their academy system and how they were coaching you've touched on that slightly with Germany and then Gareth Southgate completely changed the culture of the national setup when when he took over so can Klopp do what Southgate did is that is that partly the hope and so you have Klopp with a level of oversight which is probably uh greater than anything Gareth Southgate was ever afforded uh by the Football Association in England and so there's one so I I think that's part of this process.

19:40It's going to have a figurehead who's able to look into all elements of the game and see what we need to change. Because I think also that question is going to have to concern what the Bundesliga is for. Because other than Bayern Munich, the league has, clearly it's become a feeder league. And clearly the aim of a lot of sporting directors in this country is to find a very, very talented 21-year-old and then sell him for five times more money when he's 23. And that's a financial imperative. because of the inequities in European football. However, that's got to be able to coexist with creating a viable home for developing German players that doesn't involve, for instance, not picking on him in any way whatsoever, but Nick Fultimati disappearing to Newcastle a year after his breakthrough in Germany, probably before he was ready, I think.

20:29He had a great opportunity, no problem in taking it, but why doesn't that opportunity exist for him in German football beyond just the finances? What are we doing with the structure of our league? What are we doing to make sure that there are enough landing spots in the league for more players? And it's not just you go to Bayern Munich and you develop there or otherwise you have to go to England. That's a simplified version of this conversation, admittedly. But it's part of it. And this is going to be part of Klopp's remit. We haven't had a detailed accounting of what his remit is, Mark, yet. But it's going to be part of it in some way.

21:05And some of the things will reveal themselves in time. But it's much more than just what's the culture, what's the style of play, who are we picking and who's in the squad. It's a much broader conversation than that. Before we let you go, you're in Hamburg, as you were saying. We're going to talk about Kevin Keegan, who died last week very shortly. What have the memories been like in Hamburg of Keegan? because that was a huge move culturally and football-wise in 1977. Keegan represents, I mean, Uwe Zela is the Hamburg football player, Emeritus. He is the immortal. But Keegan is representative of a time when things were better, when the team represented the city proportionally.

21:58Won the Bundesliga for the first time. they'd been national champions in 1960 but had to wait 19 years to win it again um got to the final of the champions league or what was then the european cup lost to brian cloths nottingham forest keegan keegan is an ideal in hamburg and something that's not likely to be replicated but also the person right and i think this has come out in pretty much everything that's been said about kevin keegan and what a wonderful tribute to anybody who passes away that so much of it is not just about the sportsman it's about the way he handled himself in a way you know when he first got here it was not easy because he was the the english player who'd been given all the money that all the other players in that team thought they deserved and also because of the the restrictions on foreign players that existed then he had to punt some german players out of the team to accommodate him so and given the language difficulties the cultural difficulties it had been very very easy for him just to disappear back home but fought for his career here and he is an immortal and for someone who was only here for three years what an amazing thing to be able to say absolutely we will talk more about uh kevin keegan in just a little while after the break uh here on sports agents we'll celebrate his life with nadam's memories as well seb thank you very much uh for joining us uh and a quick reminder you can catch up on our previous episodes on youtube global player wherever you get your podcasts subscribe follow and leave us a review while you're there.

23:30We'll talk more about Kevin Keegan now following Seb's memories of him in Hamburg. And we'll come on to when he managed you, Nadam. But what strikes me about Kevin Keegan is the places he went and the choices he made and the joy that he brought to the clubs where he went. Now, Liverpool is, at the time, I suppose, is an understandable move, particularly, you know, Scunthorpe to Liverpool. But then to Hamburg, as Seb explained, but then to Southampton and then to Newcastle. And I can remember being a kid and him joining Newcastle and that signing and that excitement and the difference he made there, even before you get on to him managing them, he didn't necessarily make the most obvious of choices.

24:29And wherever he went, he was a superstar for that club. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, given the fact I'm just a fraction younger than you, Chappas, I don't remember those moves in my childhood. But it was Kevin Keegan, somebody who's very much a huge part of European football. history you know from the Ballon d 'Or side of things to you know the joy the memories that he's left uh the fans of all the places that have seen him seen him playing you know I was obviously lucky as well to have him as a coach but I think with Kevin he basically was so far ahead of so many people because he's doing things on his own terms he's going to places that he wants to go to and I'll be honest from a player perspective obviously I was never as good as Kevin Keegan now we even came close but the decisions that he made he probably could have made different ones that maybe brought him even more money could have brought him even more status but he went where he wanted to go for the time that he wanted to do it and that is essentially like the hallmark of an iconic career because it's the one that he wanted to have and he's very deserving of that with the um with the play that he had the joy that he had that that knowing his own mind and the own terms as well i mean how he quit as england manager because he didn't think he was up to the top how many people walk away with that honesty i mean the other thing on an international level 82 was my first world world cup that i that i can remember and he was but him and brooking him and brooking were both were both injury doubts going into that world cup and you do wonder if they have been fully fit if ron greenwood had maybe risked it earlier how much that World Cup might have been different for what was a very, very good England team.

26:13But the theme that runs through, and there are some amazing books on Keegan and his life, is that phrase that you used, everything on his own terms. Do you know, you were dating yourself talking about the World Cup in 82, because I don't think World Cup started until after Osborne. But yeah, when you're talking about those moments, I would love it if we beat them and so on. in the early days of the Premier League and that feeling in the 4-3 is where you see him slumped over the advertising hoardings at Anfield, you know. Like, you won't see many managers express themselves in that manner, you know what I mean?

26:48But he was very open, he was very honest and, yeah, I'd say he's iconic and it was really sad that... Was he like that as your manager at Manchester City then? Because he became City manager having left it, so he would have been bruised, presumably, by the England experience. Yeah. Yeah, he would have been. And I think he came to City when City were in what was Division 1 at the time. Old lingo, look at me aging myself, Division 1. Around Coca-Cola Cup times, all that stuff. But yeah, he came in at that time. And I'll be honest, as a City supporter and a City Academy player, in the late 90s, I was a ball boy when they were in Division 2.

27:26So we're not talking like, you know, Championship, we're talking like League One time. And there were some tough days there, Chappers, some very, very tough days. but there was a promotion in 1999. The biggest success in Manchester in 1999 was Man City beating Gillingham on penalties. Nothing about Man United or anything like that. Anyhow, keep going. Back to the original subject of Kevin Keane. I need to go back to 1999. It's a big year, 1999, for Mancunian football. It's a huge year. But he came in and in the Championship, he brought the likes of Al Berkovic, Charlie Bernabe, and they were playing some great football.

28:00And I think he ended up being the right manager to take City across to the new stadium. because it went from being in a very dark place where there were relegations and so on to almost feeling this upward trajectory as such, all done in his image. And you know how good he was as a player. He wanted to play really good football. I'm very fortunate to have been coached by two former England managers in Svenjorn Eriksson and in Kevin Keegan. Unfortunately, both of them have passed, but the impact was like, they want you to enjoy the football that you play. They want you to work hard, obviously, but play good football.

28:33and it feels like you know that's the way everyone should be but that's not really the case at all and I think for for Kevin I was in the academy I was basically coming in um when I was like 16 playing reserve football every now and again and then before you know I was in training with that first team the first team who I used to watch the first team who I watched play the first game at the City of Manchester Stadium which is obviously the Etihad now and it felt so surreal because I think that's something you can't really get ready for as a person is that leap from when you're just an academy kid to a kid that's like just playing professional football because it just happens in an instant and he was brilliant to me he gave me a chance to train with the team a year before I made my debut I'd been involved in so many pre-season games I was being asked to come up to help the team in training and he really liked me and he trusted me to be in that environment he didn't think I was fully ready but he liked me and he would kept and he kept telling me little little things like for example growing up playing football in the 90s whatever there was a point where ball got played down the channel.

29:33This is in pre-season once. Ran down there as a centre-half. Got there before the striker, you know, rolled out for a throw-in. And game finished. And afterwards he pulls me to the side. I says, oh no. He says, what did you do that for? I said, oh, you know, I'm just defending. He says, no, no, no. I want you to show more personality. I want you to get on the ball. I want you to use the goalkeeper. I want you to spread out. I want you to get on the ball again. You know, stuff which you hear on a day-to-day basis today. But that's his perception. And this was me at the time, maybe 16, 17 years old.

30:01and it made me think about the game in a different way because he says, we use all our players. We want to use our goalkeeper and I trust you to be able to do that. If you didn't think I could do it, you wouldn't have asked me to do it. But the fact he pulled me to the side meant a lot. And then he gave me my debut at 17 playing against Arsenal in the League Cup. This is when Arsenal put out their second string side, you know, with the likes of Cesc Fabregas and Robin Van Persie. But yeah, when he put out those second stringers. But it was only a few months later But something that really mattered to me.

30:32So I just turned 18. And, you know, the more football you play, the higher salary goes to a certain point and so on. But I was 18 years of age. I think I was probably on like 400 pounds a week. And I was on the bench for a game. I played six or seven games before. And the team was winning 3-1 goal in the 90th minute playing against Crystal Palace. I had to look back at this just to make sure I wasn't making it up. Because, you know, people are on your case now when you make mistakes. but it's 3-1 and he turned to the bench and looked at me and says do you have a win bonus? oh sorry do you have an appearance bonus?

31:07I was like yeah yeah I do yeah he says alright come on take your stuff off this was in the 93rd minute by the way I was on£400 a week he says yeah go on then I'll bring you on put me on right wing chappers did not touch the ball did not touch the ball for a single second but he knew what that money would mean for myself my family and the appearance and everything else like that and you know these days sentimentality is dead you know what I mean people aren't getting run outs like that but the fact he was still thinking about me because he knew where I came from he knew my family situation knew everything I'd been through to get to that point and he's still trying to give me just that moment to go out onto the pitch at the city of Manchester at the time and like I tried so hard for 90 seconds Chaffers did not touch the ball I mean I mean that there are two there are two things there firstly even with a 3-1 win he wasn't that comfortable enough to bring you on in your natural position in defense just don't do that just just in case lost four three and um but the other thing was he cared about the individual and whilst that may sound like an obvious thing to say that isn't necessarily what happens with all managers or clubs when it comes to the younger players who are breaking into the first team totally agree that is for me the most important point as I look back on him because I can joke about saying that appearance bonus and so on but at the time for Man City their finances weren't in the best position so there was a greater emphasis on academy players coming through but the environment that he would help create at the club at that time led to so many people not only sort of just getting their debut for City but like having careers and long careers from that point because I talk about my debut at that stage but training at a similar sort of time to me was like a Kasper Schmeichel you know Sean Wright Phillips gets his move to Chelsea off the back of that and there's so so many that sort of started to get around the first team at that moment and he made sure that the culture was one whereby young people were seen as people who obviously had their flaws but they weren't being ignored because of them like I essentially started playing right back at my career the beginning of my career because he wanted me to be better on the ball but he did it in an environment whereby I had Richard Dunne and Sylvain Distan who were City's player of the years for years in a row to the left of me and Sean Wright Phillips he was about to get his move to Chelsea ahead of me and he trusted me he wanted to put me in there he was allowing young players to be allowed to go in there to make mistakes but to learn he wanted you to learn he wanted to build a club around that youth and the academy at the time and to a certain extent still now it's very much built around players from the region so many Mancunians coming through and I think it meant a lot to the fans because it brought this sense of you know we spoke about it before like this identity this hope this understanding like you're bringing through people from the academy who are from the city and they're being allowed to you know to have the chance i made my debut at 17 and of so many others that were making their debuts between the age of like 17 19 and it meant so much to every single one of us meant so much to the academy and i think that was essentially you know the very start of what has led to city's academy now obviously with different funding and so on you know being one of the most prominent ones in all of world football and you know i can't thank kevin keegan enough for allowing those players to have the opportunity to to go and see what professional football looks like with somebody that understands that you have work to do but he wants you to be the best that you can be.

34:36Thank you, referee! The famine is over! The famine is over! The can't be done! So that was a 75-year hex being ended at Croke Park on Sunday as County Mayo won the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship for the first time since 1951. Not only had they dethroned Kerry, the favourites to win consecutive All-Ireland titles and the sport's most decorated team, but they had ended the so-called Mayo Curse, which had lingered over the county since 1951. So the commentary's amazing. Fans were going berserk in the stands, all down to a curse that apparently had been put on them back in 1951. I do love the fact that even 75 years later, people will still believe in the curse from 1951.

35:31Yeah, 100%. And I think what makes it funny from my standpoint is like most people that were at the stadium weren't around in 1951 from when the thing happened, you know? It's like, oh, this curse, this curse, this curse. It's like, oh, I want to be a fan of this team. well you know we're cursed so welcome welcome to the curse but that curse is over now the family believe it though you believe it even as you say even though it happened before anybody's lifetime i would imagine well the majority in that you still believe it listen chappers maybe it makes it easier when you think it's out of your control maybe that's the way that it works maybe that's the way but curse be damned curse be damned let's hear it one more time

36:21thanks adem if you've got a question for us the email the sportsagents at global.com message us on social media at the sports agents please make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review. Nadam, go back to enjoying your holiday and if the experienced Gabby Logan is listening hope you enjoyed the show.

36:45This has been a Global Production.