Lionesses win Euros... again: is this the new normal?

0:02Suzy Wrack:This is a Global Player original podcast. There's a reason why it's coming home hasn't been playing out across England and Switzerland at Euro 2025. This is a team of winners, not just dreamers after years of hurt. The trophy isn't coming home, it's staying home. For Euro 2025, the Lionesses branded themselves as New England, Proper England. We've spoken about wanting to be proper England. We've really shown what English football is about. Proper England? Proper England. Tonight was what we mean when we talk about proper England. It wasn't beautiful, but it got us through. We're English and you can't write us off.

0:42Is this the new England then? One that keeps on lifting trophies? One that actually relishes a penalty shootout? One that embraces the target on their back and never says die? If it is, I'm not sure the nation can cope. Officially, watching this team needs to come with a health warning. And Lucy Bronze played the entire tournament with a fractured tibia, for goodness sake. But it works. Wiegmann is the first English manager to successfully defend a trophy. They are the first English football team to win a major tournament on foreign soil. Six of the team have just won the Champions League, followed by the Euros.

1:17We're in Ballon d 'Or territory here. So how are the Lionesses redefining English football culture? How sustainable are the tactics? Or do we just need to enjoy the moment? Welcome to The Sports Agents.

1:38Suzy Wrack:The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hello, just me today. I'd like to say fresh off the plane from Switzerland, but you can probably imagine there wasn't much sleep to be had. I think we were all still in disbelief for a few hours afterwards about what we had just seen. In a moment, I'll be speaking to former England goalkeeper Karen Bardsley and The Guardian's Susie Rack about the Lionesses' incredible five weeks in Switzerland. And make sure you hit subscribe and follow wherever you're listening or watching the pod, as we've got a big interview coming up later this week with seven-time Super Bowl winner turned Birmingham City owner Tom Brady.

2:18Suzy Wrack:and I look at the mentors that have come into my life at different points and realize that's the only reason why I had the professional success that I did it took so many people along the way to point things out to me whether it was a physical thing whether it was a my competitiveness that allowed me to look within myself to find answers within myself and that's what you try to do. You try to pay it forward. You try to build people up because in the end, you can only play this sport for so long, but how you impact people beyond that can create so many different opportunities in your life. Plus in our weekend edition, we'll have a UK exclusive with Paul Levesque, better known as WWE icon Triple H.

3:04But moving swiftly onto the only story in town today, they only went and did it. To get our heads around the Lionesses winning back-to-back Euros, Are we speaking to former England goalkeeper Karen Bardsley and The Guardian women's football reporter Susie Rack? The Sports Agents. Susie Rack, Karen Bardsley, welcome to The Sports Agents. The morning after, the day after, the night before, and I can't believe I've arrived back in the UK and England today is not a bank holiday. What's going on? However, Susie, you're still in Switzerland. Karen, you're back home. You will know that everybody is talking about this.

3:40It's all everybody wants to talk about, which is amazing because the slight worry for me last night was the feeling that this is all becoming a bit normal. People will just start taking this for granted. Did you get that feeling at all, Karen? Well, I mean, you're right about everyone wanting to talk about it because I was in the cab for quite a long time on my way back from the airport. And we had a proper good conversation about the tournament and how much he enjoyed it and the things that really stuck out to him. I use a little like Toblerone analogy for kind of the journey that the Lionesses have taken in 2025 and they've carried it into the Euros.

4:19But yeah, I hope they don't go about it the same way if this is going to become a regular occurrence because being on the other side of things, it was pretty stressful. But I know what it's like being in that bubble. And I genuinely believe that they would have fought from the off that they could win this. Sorry, the Toblerone. I'm not sure I completely got the analogy there. Up and down. Have you? picture total around yeah i was thinking hurts when you buy into it but it's worth it after a while when you've chewed it i was i was kind of going in a completely literal kind of sense there i see up and down right okay it has been up and down susie i was using it in a very different way uh susie uh it has been up and down through the year it's been up and down through the tournament but the thing is that they kept impressing upon us this is england this is new england or this is this is English they kept kind of cementing this idea in all of us that this was the identity they actually wanted they were emboldened and by it all yeah and I was initially slightly put off by

5:16Suzy Wrack:the sort of proper English mantra I felt is a little bit little Englandy slightly and I was a little bit kind of cringy about it but then we had a great press conference with Lucy Bronze where she sort of explained her feeling of what it meant and then I was like okay I'm in on this I think we've never negated tactics or anything else that comes with the game with the term proper England. I think it was more the fact that we've said, again, we're a new England, a new team. And what was meant by that was we had a lot of younger players and new players who have very different experiences of playing for England compared to the likes of myself, where we know that England used to have to dig deep all the time.

5:552015 was the first time we beat Germany. That's insane to think of right now. but England in the past it was you have to dig out performances and you are maybe the underdog, you're not the favourite. Whereas this England team has developed, football has changed. Obviously we're a very talented team, a lot of technical ability, tactics, all that comes in the game but we don't want to ever forget that we are England, we are proper England and if push comes to shove we can win a game in any means possible.

6:22Suzy Wrack:I thought that was a really nice way of explaining what it means to them and what they think of as proper English. and proper England. And that kind of warmed me to the phrase a little bit. I mean, incredible grit and determination that they've shown through the tournament has just been, been insane. And I think that's what's kept people engaged with this as a new tournament in that it's the emotional connection that people have to a journey that are being taken on that really kind of wins them over. And when you, when you've got so many last gasp winners, you know, so many kind of battles from behind in three consecutive games, when it's a knockout competition from the second game onwards.

7:01Suzy Wrack:I think that just gets people. And in a world where at the moment we've got so little to be connected over and there's so much division, people having some shared collective joy and pain and suffering is actually a really nice feeling. It reminds you that community is actually great. And there was so much about the identity of the team, though, that wasn't familiar. For example, apparently playing for penalties. I mean, that looked like the plan for 30 minutes because they certainly weren't trying to attack, were they? I mean, whether they were just exhausted and didn't have it in them to do it.

7:34But they looked like it was going to be OK. Penalties were going to be OK for them. That's not an English thing, is it? That's not something that we're used to, Karen, in terms of identity. We don't play for penalties. I know it's not, but I love touching on Susie's point around the fact that they have such personality and character and they are so relatable in terms of everyone can relate to a time in their lives when they've been on the back foot and they've had to really dig deep to do something really tough that not a lot of people think they can do. And going against the grain and showing that edge, I think, was something that a lot of people back home could relate to.

8:14but at the end of the day everyone loves a winner don't they they want to be associated with success and it might not have been pretty and again very relatable but they found a way to do it and you know they had a plan and they stuck to it and trusting themselves to go to penalties it is really tough but backing their quality in the team backing their preparation I think is something that probably no other team did the game against Sweden is a perfect example in the interview with manager afterwards asking about if they prepare for penalties or not and he just thought why would you do that and I'm like why wouldn't you yeah you know so I like the fact that they conserve their energy their game plan was exceptional in terms of just get yourself there we know that we're ready and as chaotic as that penalty shootout was against Sweden they managed to get it over the line but there were some heroics weren't there some big players stepped up and again everyone loves a hero.

9:09Everyone loves a success story. So I hope they don't do that again. I'd quite like to see tidier football. I'd quite like to see them do it in 90 minutes because I'd have a lot less gray hair. I feel like now we only play 120 minutes of football, don't we? When the new season starts, I feel like it'll feel very short when we have a regular 90 minutes. But Susie, the identity thing, I want to drill a bit more into this because when you look at Spain playing their beautiful football you know their intricate passing in England's box and just looking you know kind of sublime as they have done for the last few years really when they're on on fire they have this identity of playing that that is their football right I'm not sure with 11 outfield players going into that game yesterday having scored what actually England's style identity if you like is you know apart from this innate thing that they can win and come through adversity

10:02Suzy Wrack:do they have a football style well I think the thing about Spain which really contrasts is it's unique right like it's it's just really a Spanish thing and it's so ingrained in them from such an early age it's almost like breathing they play it at youth level they play it across club level they play it across international teams the coaches all coach the same way it's it's a style that is like bred into them and so that's like a really unique thing we don't have that in the same way they have England DNA which was brought in a while back that they they tried to sort of create some kind of identity and feeling of being an England player but I don't I don't think that they've necessarily kind of been prescriptive with the way teams play through age groups and whether they have to be the same I don't think they've kind of got their similarities obviously Serena meets with the under 23s and the under 17s and under 19s coaches weekly I think so there's a lot of collaboration there but they don't have to play the same way there's not that kind of level of of integration of an identity that they have in Spain but yeah I agree with you I mean I think they were lacking a clear style but at the same time you sort of saw them fall back on things that got them through in 2022 you know finding the key impact players that could come on and make the difference they adapted well for the opponent so like I mean the Spain game for example swapping Lauren Hemp and Lauren James around on the wings I thought was a really smart move because where they got caught out in that World Cup final was when Lucy Bonds came forward and the space was left in the back put Lauren Hemp over that side and you've got someone with the pace you can cover there much much more efficiently than LJ who was like not totally fit for that match and obviously had to come off early so just little things like that being smart and tactical about it I think is where England were able to get ahead a little bit and then obviously having the manager that is probably the envy of every club team in the world and yeah that's the difference really.

12:03I think a lot of it is principle-based you know so I think a lot of the stuff that England do quite well is move the ball through the midfield quickly and you know that That incisiveness that we saw for England's goal was find Kira. So build from the centre-back, find the midfield, find the wide areas. That's essentially the success. But they only did that in the second half, didn't they? They didn't do it in the first half. They didn't do more? Yes, they probably could have, but they still won, didn't they? It's about working the ball into dangerous areas, get crosses, get cutbacks, making sure you have numbers in the box, late runs from deep.

12:35Those types of situations are essentially principles, but how you set out, how you achieve it is kind of obviously going to be different for each manager as well. And the magic about Serena Vietman is obviously all the planning and preparation that goes into it, the way she selects the team. The players are capable of bringing different things that are complementary in terms of their attributes. And then the combinations of them on the day make them special in terms of which opposition they face. So that's why the selection of Jess Carter over Esme Morgan was genius. Yeah. You can't say enough, can you, about Serena Vigman and just how incredible her run has been.

13:16It's 2013, the last time anybody else won the Euros, which is just ridiculous, isn't it? And she's got another two years on her contract, as I understand it. So she will definitely, as long as she doesn't change her mind, be taking her to that World Cup in Brazil. And that is the one thing that eludes her, Susie. you know personally she's taken two different teams to World Cup finals and not got over the line all the successes she's had that must be a burning desire inside her I mean you hope so and

13:43Suzy Wrack:you hope she wants to do with England and not anyone else and I imagine she would do because the resource she gets from the FA is so so huge and maybe only rivaled by the US in terms of the kind of support that is put around the team so you'd like to think that she's going to last out that two years Mark Bullingham was said said she's absolutely not for sale under any circumstances no amount of money could pry her away from them unless you know obviously she wanted to go I think that would be a different story but yeah like I say I don't know why she would want to at this stage because there's so many bright players coming through she knows the pathway now she knows exactly who's sort of behind the door and they've got two years to get ready essentially so the World Cup's a big beast um and she's made two finals it's it's sort of the next hurdle and there's going to be a few players who, you know, will potentially be reaching their last World Cup.

14:31A few, but also if you look across the board quite a lot, if you add two years onto the rage, you know, you could see them still being there. And certainly one of those who will be there, you'd hope, barring any other kind of, you know, catastrophes or injuries would be Hannah Hampton, Karen, who obviously came into this tournament kind of shrouded with the noise about Mary Earps and had to put that to one side and had to focus on her own performance, but also So I guess as a goalkeeper, kind of winning over your team, especially your defence and winning over those players almost to believe in you as much as they might have believed in the previous number one.

15:06And she just seemed to handle everything that was thrown at her. And I don't mean that literally, but across the media and the way she spoke, I felt her growing through the tournament and her confidence growing in terms of a narrator, a communicator. Yeah, no, she's quite understated, isn't she, in the way she kind of goes about things, which makes me think of a conversation I had last night at the game, actually. And we were standing there, like, watching them get the trophy. And we're just like, do you think she actually knows how good she is? You know, because the way she comes across, it's like it's normal, you know, the things that she can do.

15:40But, yeah, she's incredible, as you mentioned there, you know, around Mary Earp's retirement, you know, and kind of the backlash that that got her through absolutely no fault of her own. You know, the feeling that fans kind of weren't on her side. I was really disappointed to hear that because I think when you're going into a major tournament, regardless of who's in goal or who's on the pitch, you want England to do well. She handled that. That's big pressure. The shirt, it's a big responsibility. I certainly think she's added a lovely layer to it because when you talk about building those relationships, that presence is really important.

16:16How the back four feel when you're in goal, not just vocally but physically like are you there kind of making sure that you're always in contact with your center backs and organizing and they would have known that you know she's obviously been involved in the squad during the home euros and I think the pivotal moment though is in the Nations League when they played France and then obviously Mary Earps came off and then Hannah Hampton came on and you know that maybe there are a couple times where she looked maybe a bit nervous but I genuinely haven't seen much of it at all in this tournament there was obviously that one situation against Sweden.

16:49But other than that, she's taken it all in her stride. And I think what I just love the most, she's got these game-defining moments in her, both in and out of possession. The thing that really, really stands out to me is that pass against Netherlands. To have the confidence. For the Lauren James. Yeah, yeah. It was Alessia Russo, a channel run, and then she combines with Lauren James for that fantastic goal that just absolutely smacks it in the top bins. You're just like, okay. And all of that, Karen, with no depth perception, you know, to be told as a young person, you know, this won't be the sport for you because, you know, your eyesight is going to preclude you from playing that kind of, you know, top level sport.

17:29It's quite the story, isn't it? Yeah. She's overcome a lot. And again, I think it's very fitting that she is in this team because they encapsulate that everywhere, you know, in terms of people writing them off and people getting shown up and them proving everyone wrong. But yeah, that pass, again, for me, it was incisive. It went across all of the lines of the Dutch team, just tore them apart with one pass. And I just think, at one point, I was thinking she could play in the back. She could just be a third centre-back and then just let Lucy stay up there. And then the game-changing saves that she's made, keeping England in really important games in terms of the Sweden save, the save early on in the Spain final, you know that little 1v1 where she was out like a lightning bolt um i just think like her distribution is a weapon and that's why serena's made the decision and it's paid off i certainly hope that she takes a lot of confidence from this tournament and just keeps looking to carry on on that it's an amazing trajectory and i'm i'm really excited for for her more from karen and susie after this short break the sports agents Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun.

18:42An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast. An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. One you would never write off being there in two years time, but must be one of those who's coming towards the end is Lucy Bronze. I mean, she's phenomenal that she's now the most consecutive appearances in tournament football. She puts her body on the line and we found out in a way that I can't imagine the pain she was going through with a fractured tibia and had some fantastic moments in the tournament.

19:40Of course she did, Susie. She's Lucy Bronze. It's really hard to imagine this group of players without her, but that day will come and it's not going to be that far away, is it?

19:50Suzy Wrack:she may never retire because she feels like a machine uh but they need they need to have her in a bit of a Jill Scott role like around the group you know Jill's getting on the plane to fly back today and things like that um and they they keep her around because she provides something extra for the environment and I think Lucy like that fight the fact that she's played the tournament on a broken tibia and then gets injured in the final with knee injury in the other leg and still tries to play on and then even when she's taken off and that the penalties are going on she's on the pitch hopping up and down and fourth official is telling her to get off and georgia has to go on to pitch and physically pull her shirt to get her off the side like is a reflection of her character and the fight of england's generally like and i think that's why she was so able to beautifully articulate what proper england means to her because she she is it she lives it loves playing football and she got asked um in the mix zone afterwards about whether she was going to keep going and uh and yeah it just wasn't even a question for her she's she's always annoyed at the question which i find quite funny for you know given her age now um because it's obviously a natural question to ask no one's like trying to retire early and i saw um some fans tweeting oh this could be the last time we see lucy bronze in an england shirt and both her brother George and her mum were commenting on them go her brother George just just went behave like um because yeah the idea of her choosing step away she'll go when she has to when she realizes that she's not good enough or she's forced to but well the one thing we know about Serena Viegman is she's not scared of a direct conversation is she with the player whoever that player is and even Lucy Bronze one day might be sat down and have to have a frank conversation and I know it's unthinkable.

21:37Suzy Wrack:She's not got many choices at right back as backup at the moment. So, you know, she's got a good few years. She's probably got a bit more, yeah. She's got a little bit more time, yeah. I mean, we could go through the whole team, but I think Chloe Kelly, yet again, has kind of transcended the tournament and, you know, obviously came on a lot earlier yesterday than she did in the final in 2022. And immediately there was an energy and a directness of her crossing and she, you know, she added something to the game that was missing. The kind of perceived wisdom that was coming out of the panel that I was working with, which was Steph Horton and Ellen White and Neda Manua, was that she's got to stop being happy, actually, with being a super sub.

22:14Would you go along with that? I think it's fascinating. I'd be interested to find out who said that, actually. I think they all agreed. Did they? Yeah, that is interesting. She has that quality in her, doesn't she? She can put in pinpoint crosses with both feet. She's quite happy to play on either wing. For me, she's got the determination to come in and make an impact. As a goalkeeper, you don't get subbed in mid-match usually. So you don't kind of know what it feels like to kind of be tasked to do a specific thing for a shortened period of time. You know, like when you start, you're obviously managing your impact over the course of the 90 minutes.

22:54So I don't know if there's like a heightened awareness and urgency when she comes on that kind of just like focuses her impact or if it's just the singularity of, you know, the role that she has to play under Serena. But I'm sure she's trying really hard to be a starter, you know, but ultimately it comes down to Serena's decision, which is completely out of her control. So that was why I thought it was interesting that everyone kind of agreed because she's working her socks off. It was the first time in 42 substitutions that she came on in the first half. This is the interesting thing about Serena's super subs, isn't it?

23:27On the one hand, she's got to make them believe that they are absolutely the most important you know as important as anybody else that she's she's putting in a match day squad because she can't have them feeling that they're somehow you know disenfranchised they're no longer kind of part of that 11 and yet you've also you know you want people to have individual kind of goals and desires to be part of the team it's again it's down to Serena's incredible man management Susie that she has that group of players believing in all the roles that, you know, she sets out for them and that you are able as Chloe Kelly to become a superhero.

24:02Yeah.

24:02Suzy Wrack:I mean, being a good substitute is a double edged sword, right? Because you basically play yourself into being a great substitute and staying on the bench because you can come on and have that impact. Whereas like, obviously they took the risk on playing Lauren James from the start, clearly not fully fit, has to come off but they sort of have to take that risk at that point because we've seen Lauren James come off the bench previously and I think she takes a little bit of time to get into the rhythm of the game and isn't always as impactful sort of later on so if you're gonna bring her on for me you had you had to sort of start her and give her a go from there it must be frustrating because you do a brilliant job you basically make the case for you to be a starter but you are also then making the case for you to be that substitute, to be the impact player.

24:50And it means you perform under pressure well. They call it a clutch player in American sport. And actually, maybe we need to reimagine what the roles of players are in these, you know, because in American sport, obviously, there's a very different, you know, take on it. And in rugby, no international rugby team now ever starts and finishes with the same 15. It's all about the finishes. And football hasn't always had that kind of psychology around subs, has it? Maybe, Karen, it's just an evolution in the way subs are used. I think it probably speaks more to the culture around the sport and the coaches in the sport, you know, that it hasn't managed to evolve yet because you can learn so many things from other sports.

25:30And I think the psychological element of how you handle players within a group over long periods of time, again, giving them that focus, like this is your job, do your job, don't focus on anything else, and setting those reminders. but like for me when I hear that again coming back to Serena and how pragmatic she is in the way she approaches things she's got a plan if it doesn't work she makes a new one and then she'll have like those permutations in the back of her mind and she'll know that you know I have to do this and this and this and this is what this person can bring and this is when they can bring it and don't get me wrong like at times she did leave it a bit late against Italy but she put that right straight away and I did I just wanted to say as well like an interesting thing you have to consider in in these tournaments as well you know they've they've played 120 minutes numerous times like if i start chloe kelly and she's our best penalty taker and i have to take her off what then you know so like these are types of things that she has to consider and those will be some of the reasons that we don't understand as to why perhaps a player that's playing exceptionally well doesn't start that's why in serena we trust we just have to keep on trusting susie because you You know, it's all working.

26:40We can't, I think, leave this chat without chatting about Michelle Adjumang because obviously she did win Young Player of the Tournament, which she just delightfully looked so unbelievably kind of bemused by when she was going through the tunnel the players set her going through. And she's really, the reaction in the stadium when they saw her face up on the screen that she was going to come on, Susie, you really couldn't help but think anything other than a star is born. How long before she is no longer a super sub?

27:06Suzy Wrack:yeah I mean it's a hard ask right there's a lot of talent at Arsenal and I wouldn't be surprised if well I wouldn't be surprised if they kept her but I also wouldn't be surprised if they sent her out on loan again I think that'd be a decent shout but I think they definitely want her to be starting somewhere so I think that's going to be the key I think they would have liked her to have got more minutes at Brighton um when she was there uh because she didn't play a huge amount of football but she offers something very very different to what England have got she's super super humble super talented and is going to be in her peak when the World Cup is hosted in England so there's a like really exciting journey ahead but then they've also got this difficult situation of do they still play her at youth level as well because it's the under 20 World Cup coming up and she was a big part in helping win qualification for that tournament so do you bring her back into that if she's not getting regular cup football and you have her bouncing between the under 20s and the senior side like how does how does that work and I think she's a bit of an anomaly because she's so talented beyond her years yet clubs aren't quite ready to necessarily take that risk on having her starting every week and I think that's there's this gap there so she's I think she's gonna be a super sub for some time yeah I would have liked to have seen her on with Russo I would have liked to have seen him in the two as well because I just think you know as soon as you occupy both of those centre backs it's just an absolute nightmare and the thing that I really liked is when she came on immediately she was just like elbowing like the centre backs as they as she was running past them like just obviously just being a nuisance i'm here you're gonna be in for a long afternoon evening um but the thing i love about her is like she just takes up great positions you know like she gets in the area finds like the blind spot off the shoulder of the defender and just kind of like lingers in there so you never quite know where she is and you're constantly like checking and then she's really clever like she'll move as a defender's not looking so you know her timing of when she arrives in the box but her finishing the way she can play with her back to the goal like she's literally I don't want to hype like a young player up too much but she is so exciting which is why I love talking about her so much yeah it makes me think actually that you know you I think it'd be pretty shrewd move if you're in the WSL to take her on loan because she's the kind of person that would just draw in people you know you know in that kind of way that you see in American sport where they move players around franchises and the fans move with them she's that kind of player that has seemingly kind of captured the hearts of the nations hasn't she so you you travel a little bit to go and watch her i think um guys it's been it's been great to reminisce a bit and look back at what was a very very successful tournament 657 000 people attended the highest attendance of a euros the atmospheres and the stadiums was great and uh and switzerland was a was a brilliant host of the of the tournament and did did the job itself getting out of the group and getting itself into a quarterfinal which is always a uh i think it really is kind of a must-do i think for host nation i think we're all honest that's you know We want them in knockout football, don't we?

29:53And in terms of the legacy, just briefly, Susie, of this team and where they can leave their mark further. We know from 22, attendances went up in the WSL. We know there was always a bounce after the Lionesses have been on TV over the summer. But do you think there's more to come from this group of women in terms of they're not scared to shout and ask for more, are they?