Mary Earps: “Torture” of quitting Wiegman’s England & Hampton drama

10:07Mark:that but mostly for my family and friends to experience that because I personally don't feel that that's what my character is at all but ultimately people will think what they would like to think and that's okay like I'm not here to make everybody like me that's not my mo I think I want to genuinely share what I was feeling and experiencing and for me I think it was a really courageous decision to do what I did I'm not saying it should be praised and admired or anything but I think that it wasn't an easy thing to do and just because you read things in the newspaper or assume things I think that's hard about being a big personality sometimes

10:48Gabby:obviously I don't think you would have wanted to say this at the time because it would have destabilized the whole of England I'm getting not the whole of England the whole of the squad I'm not that important, Chappas, unfortunately. Yeah, got a bit dramatic there. Sorry about that. But because you write in the book, the goalkeeper dynamic had been too unhealthy for too long. Relations in the goalkeeper group were dire.

11:11Mark:Yeah.

11:11Gabby:So, A, what does that mean? B, how much are you responsible for that as arguably the leader of that goalkeeping group before Serena made this decision?

11:22Mark:Oh, Chappas, that's a tough one. I think that I am absolutely responsible for my part that I play in that goalkeeper union and I think one of the things that I experienced and speak about a lot in the book is it's hard to be a goalkeeper coming through when you're at a young age you have to boss people around a little bit and that can create a difficult dynamic especially when you're young or you're not experienced and you're not experiencing these environments and so for sure I take a lot of responsibility for that and I do everywhere that I go one of the big things that I try and create is a healthy dynamic where we can all take the mick out of each other there's no hierarchy regardless of you know whether I'm number one or whatever but I think sometimes everyone has a different idea of what team values look like and you just have to accept that that's sometimes work and football and life and I think there was a misalignment and it happened for a long time don't get me wrong you know this was not something that came up just when I wasn't playing you know but I think it was something I navigated for a long time and it was difficult.

12:27Mark:And this was specifically with Hannah Hampton? I mean I don't want to talk about people specifically and get down that route because I think that then comes negative and I think Hannah is extremely talented and had a great summer and I don't want it to.

12:40Mary Earps:But she did at one point leave the group because of behaviour issues.

12:44Mark:She did, yeah and obviously that was kind of reported and I think you know that was a consequence of things that happened at the Euros but ultimately I think that's sometimes where it gets to where I felt the healthier thing for everybody was to step aside and I'm so glad that for example Kiara got to go and a Morehouse went and they got to experience what I'd also experienced and that gave gave me a great amount of joy to see that as well great amount of fulfillment to to see that did it really genuinely because because knowing how knowing how passionate you were about it knowing the success that you had did you not sit there during the euros thinking bloody hell honestly i'll tell you honestly the group stages i found like a walk in the park I went out and watched them.

13:38Mark:I thoroughly enjoyed it. You went as a fan? I went as a fan. I saw the girls afterwards. And I was nervous going, I was, because, I mean, you can tell I'm nervous. This is hard to, you know, I'm baring my soul and people aren't going to like some of it. And I accept that. But I went and I genuinely had a great time. I love watching them. And I know the girls personally. And I feel like I've grown up a lot with them. and so for me it was like you know I see them more than my own family so genuinely I love the knockout games I'll be honest with you 100 % I was sat at home and I watched them and they were more difficult to watch in terms of like oh I'd I'd love like I'd love to inflict myself on this game but that's because I'm a competitor but I also knew when it goes out to a shootout yeah exactly you know like that relish those moments you know but there was no genuinely no part of me that didn't feel like this was exactly how it was meant to be and I think the girls went on and won they did a fantastic job and I get to see that from a different angle now of like what they do for the nation and continue to do for English women's football but also around the world and also English sports as a whole like you've been very supportive of the Red Roses yeah I think what I learned big time from the Euros and coming out of the craziness of it of the World Cup and being able to separate myself go to Paris and separate myself and see the impact from the outside in I realized what synergy there could be I've been to the netball the rugby I want to try and get across as many English sports as possible and do what I can to help them cricket as well and we have such similar journeys and obstacles but genuinely to watch that from the outside and see how the Lionesses have led the way and continue to lead the way.

15:27Mary Earps:During that final, did you believe that they could go on and win? Because obviously Spain was... They were so dominant, Spain, weren't they? Within the 90 minutes.

15:36Mark:They were, but England's different. I don't know how... What is it? Tell us. It's the fire.

15:39Mary Earps:Because next summer we'll all be hoping that England's men can show something of that incredible way of getting out of, you know, situations where you think they're up against it and they're never going to... their backs are against the wall. and the lionesses just find a way so what is that what what is in the dna there i don't know

15:58Mark:on the men's side because i've not been in that environment but the women's side it's hard to explain like a tenacity just find a way to win playing good playing bad come together like i think that for me is what stood out was i think the france game it looked to me from the outside like that really gave everyone the kick to be like no come on let's get this together and I thought from there there was a spirit and there was I mean I knew they would be hard to beat going into the tournament I said pre months in advance we're 100 % going to win that's what I texted Alessia and Tooney when the France game happened guys one game you're going to win this tournament it doesn't matter no one's going to care about the first game when you've won and I think that for me it was clear it was clear the the talent the I don't know relentlessness about it you know I don't I don't really know if I'm explaining that well but for me it's sometimes hard to describe that it's an

16:54Mary Earps:untangible thing but there is this the moniker that keeps kind of being attached to Serena you know in Serena we believe yeah you know there were times throughout that tournament that she tested

17:03Mark:that belief didn't she it was actually it was hard it was very hard I've experienced it as a fan and I'm thinking, oh my God, guys, come on, come on, we need a goal. But then, you know, Chloe would pop up or someone, Michelle would pop up with a goal and you think, yeah, here we go, it's on.

17:21Mary Earps:Don't go anywhere. We're going to speak to Mary about Manchester United and so much more after the break.

17:26Gabby:The Sports Agents.

17:31Gabby:The Sports Agents.

17:32Mark:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

17:37Gabby:What difference has moving abroad and moving to Paris made to you personally and professionally?

17:46Mark:Professionally, I think it's given me a different style of training, a completely different training stimulus, amazing facilities.

17:55Mary Earps:Better than they were at United?

17:58Mark:Yeah, the facilities are better at PSG. you know I think that obviously Carrington now is going through a big development change and on the men's side they've spent a lot of money and I'm hoping that that will come over to the to the women's side as well for them but yeah I think that's what stood out to me at that point in my career when I was choosing what to do was there was a setup where I felt like I could look after my mind and body in a really good way and that's obviously what I'm what I'm trying to do training really hard learning you know different skills I think I think it's added something to oh it's getting there it's tough um and then personally i think it's given me a good i don't say balance in my life because i don't think i have any balance in my life i work i was going to say

18:40Mary Earps:something that comes through the book is that you i mean all in as a child once once football bit you as a as a bug yeah that was it yeah obsessed obsessed completely obsessed obsessed consumes

18:53Mark:my every thought and feeling and i'll beat myself up like i'll be thinking about this interview for example and I think I didn't answer that well and I've not done myself justice there and oh I'm opening myself up to criticism there it's just this constant like I need to be better and I don't like to say I need to be perfect I know perfect doesn't exist but I need to be like 99 % perfect

19:14Mary Earps:in everything that I do you went through something in lockdown that was this close to a breakdown in terms of your your mental health yeah found yourself literally on the floor yeah and you were drinking more alcohol than you should have done you were not looking after your body as an athlete that was an experience that you refer back to in the book later saying I didn't want to be on the floor again yeah so describing yourself as you you have just done there as somebody who can be consumed by a desire to be the very very very best how how did that experience help you to to deal with that and to to shut your eyes at night and and not beat yourself up yeah I think I didn't

19:55Mark:recognised myself for the for the longest time it felt like all the things that used to feel familiar just didn't make sense anymore and I think that when you go through something like that I think as many people do if not all of us do at different stages in our life you never wish that on yourself again you realise what life truly is and I think as you get older and you know I had a call even a couple of days ago that you know someone I worked with at Manchester United had fallen suddenly ill and and and unfortunately passed away yesterday and it's just life is so short and it's too short to not be anything but happy you know to beat yourself up for things to be unkind to yourself and it's easy to say but I think when that darkness grabs you I think you have a new appreciation for what's really important in life and I think that's what I try to remember now in these difficult moments like in the summer when you know every man and his dog it felt like were saying unpleasant things is who am I as a person can I look at myself in the mirror every day do I feel I've done everything I can to be the best version of myself and if the answer is yes then then I'm okay with that all you can do is everything with the best intentions you can't control how people are going to perceive you or interpret you and you can't control the outcome i think i was so outcome driven pre that i was obsessed with i need to do this and i need to do this by this age and i was just beating myself up constantly for falling short and now i try to be more obsessed with the process rather than what the result is still obsessed

21:29Gabby:still obsessed but in it i tried to shift it does it but it sounds like you are a little it sounds like even what you said there about you'll leave this interview i think you could have answered

21:37Mark:this better or done that better it sounds like i'm mad that i got emotional i'm upset with myself But you've poured your heart into this book, Mary. Yeah, I have.

21:46Gabby:Why are you annoyed at getting, like genuinely, why are you annoyed at getting emotional? Because I tell my kids all the time that crying is the best, at times is the best thing. Emotion is the best thing. She just doesn't want to do it in front of us. Yeah, the cameras, the lights. So trust me, I reduce a lot of people to tears at times. But is that, do you think that's the sportswoman in you? Is that the sort of game face?

22:10Mary Earps:Is it a weakness to show that emotion?

22:12Mark:Maybe. I definitely don't think it's a weakness. I don't think vulnerability is weakness. I think vulnerability is strength. And I hope that that comes out in the book. But I think I'm also scarred by different things I've experienced over the time. And I take this crazy life and career path that I've had over the last few years with such great responsibility. and you know I have a lot of people who are looking to me you know to lead the way in certain things or are looking at me to you know behave in the right way it's like you know like the

22:46Gabby:who do you feel who do you feel that responsibility towards do you do you feel it towards yourself your family do you feel it towards my 11 year old daughter who's who's never met you but plays

22:59Mark:football three times a week is it all of them yeah all of it I think you know I do think I've found you know that it's important that you it's okay to admit like you know what I need to be proud of myself I need to conduct myself in the way that I want to live my life but I think it's mostly more for like friends family and yeah for the incredible amount for the incredible amount of people that have supported me over these last particularly the last few years but people who followed me right from the beginning I feel like I owe them my life in a way of like people have given me more than I could ever imagine I could never imagine this career that I've had and there's bits that change and maybe wish for a little bit different but of course I'm so privileged I'm I

23:43Mary Earps:have what an incredible life incredible and you touched on your leadership there and how important it is to you to keep leading yeah by example and what happened during the world cup with the shirts the goalkeeping shirts with Nike with you know you stepping up kind of the symbolism of you saving that penalty when the first time you'd ever played in goal as a kid you'd saved a penalty and that kind of full circle moment almost that led the nation to kind of elevate you actually on as we do with our sporting heroes and put you on a platform and and because you became so symbolic but also a figurehead for the change that was happening there with a global sports brand I think there's a moment in the book where Serena tries to persuade you to stay.

24:30Mary Earps:And I read through her comments that she was almost worried about your legacy. Yeah, definitely. Did you not worry about that, that everything that you'd built up in those years since the World Cup could have been tarnished?

24:42Mark:In the moment, I'll be honest, not really so much because I think I was naive to a little bit of. I have always been this way. I know this is the decision every bit of information that I've taken to get to this point is pointing me in the same direction and even when I've gone backwards and forwards on it or new information it's still drawn me to this decision and I have to go with what I think is the right thing and I think the way it worked out I then was able to go on have medical treatment do what I needed to do in the summer take care of myself mentally and physically the girls went on and won a tournament Serena went on and won her third consecutive Euros it worked out like fantastically well for everybody I think you know the team were great I think Hannah did a good job I think that it all worked out and I think that I didn't expect some of what I got but I think I was I think that's why I'm nervous about it now because I know what came and I know that the untruths that were spun and I'm conscious that that could happen again and I really do feel like if people don't see the vulnerability in what I'm doing and they don't appreciate the fact that I've been ugly honest at times if people don't appreciate that and understand that then I'm this could this could go west very very quickly but I felt at the time when Serena was and Darren were both saying those things to me that I was like I understand all that but you know when it's like almost like the truth and the facts that is what counts it we can't get swayed by emotion and the difficulty of the decision and it would be easy it would have been easier for me to continue say nothing carry on and get another winner's medal and collect another accolade and continue but I really felt that it was the right and that's what I guess I'm my thing is if I didn't feel that it was absolutely the right thing to do why would I put myself through that in general

26:46Gabby:just taking away people's thoughts about your decision to step away yeah but aside from that you talk in the book again about worrying about being in the supermarket and people looking you up and down recognizing you and then worrying whether they're going to say something nice or or tear you apart and you mentioned it several times you know people have their own opinions of you but aside from that decision which some people will criticize and some people won't aren't people 99 % genuine I mean in person nice to you I think I'm very lucky with the support that I have yeah I've had some negative experiences definitely right and you know I think I have had

27:29Mark:criticism of the decision but I also felt an incredible amount of love for the decision I think a lot of people did see it for what it was or what my intention was and I am incredibly grateful for that but of course I do have negative experiences where people you know even since the decision want to tell me to my face what they think of me and that is yeah of course is difficult sometimes um contract extension oh oh yeah yeah not sometimes after a drink or like relatives of people and I'm like I'm just going to try and excuse myself from the situation and sometimes I don't think people mean for things to come out the way that they do I think it just comes out quite sharp and you think probably wasn't the most sensitive thing to say there but okay no we move on we just

28:13Mary Earps:touched very briefly on Manchester United but if we could just have a minute on that because obviously you talk about contracts which is something that has been kind of widely discussed about Manchester United's women not offering contracts as quickly yeah and not keeping players happy big players happy what was the dynamic and the culture like for you at the end there

28:33Mark:I think I spent five years at Manchester United incredible memories and the girls are unbelievable the staff that I work with unbelievable I think that the girls have continued to do exceptionally well exceptionally well I think it's a shame how some things happen behind the scenes and I think my truth of that was I was a big character, big player but also a big leader and in a relatively young team And I felt I was having to push a lot behind the scenes and spend a lot of energy on conversations, which I think in the end, I just I think I was tired of fighting the same fight a little bit without.

29:14Mary Earps:Did that get worse when Sir Jim Ratcliffe came in? Did you notice yourself having to fight more?

29:19Mark:um I think it was different because then staff started to change so people I had relationships with for a long time and you know I was meeting executives for breakfast and I felt I had a good relationship there and we had good conversation and I did feel like they listened to me I don't think the action was always there which was a shame and sometimes women's football is like that you're bound by budgets and people's opinions and if people value certain things and did they value their women's team? Oh, I think they should value it more. And I think that the girls, the job that they do is unbelievable.

29:57Mark:The togetherness there is special. Like, I think unlike what you'd find in honestly most teams, I think it's the most together team I've ever been a part of. Their like, energy and spirit is unbelievable and they continue to compete and do a great job regardless of what happens.

30:15Gabby:I think they don't as a team and mark as well to be honest who was under pressure at times with the fan base at united they don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve compared to the other so-called big three in the wsl because of sometimes the circumstances they're working under they don't get anywhere near the same amount of credit as the other three no i don't think they do get

30:39Mark:the credit they they deserve sometimes i really don't i think obviously the fan base is incredibly passionate and like follow their team home and away like relentlessly like the noise like even there was games where we were away from home and it felt like a home game like it's it's incredible the energy around the club but I think that because of certain things or the way different clubs invest more and spend more in transfer windows they often go under the radar but you look at the results that they get it's consistent you can't you can't disagree with it Mary I'm

31:12Mary Earps:I'm being told our time with you is up.

31:14Mark:Oh, I'm boring, everyone.

31:15Gabby:Oh, well, then final question then if our time is up. Oh, I had one. Oh, fine over me. I love it. So, right, one eat. When you get in the car after this then and sit with your team, how do you analyse this? And are you ready then for... Are you ready to promote this?

31:34Mark:I don't know if I am, Mark.

31:36Gabby:Okay.

31:37Mark:I think writing it was actually really quite therapeutic for me. I think it helped me process a lot of things that had happened that I'm still maybe a bit emotional about and still processing. But I think it really helped me get to quite a positive mindset much quicker than I would have done in truth. Whether I'm ready to promote it and answer all the questions on it, I don't know. I guess I'm at the, yeah, I've just got to wait and see and find out.

32:04Mary Earps:It's always, whether or not you have as huge stories as you have to share, it's a vulnerable moment, isn't it? To open your thoughts, your feelings and your life up. And that's what I was just about to ask at the end. Quite a surprising end almost to the book is you talking about, and you mentioned it there, medical procedures in the summer and having fertility treatment effectively. Which actually, that was quite an uplifting way to kind of finish because Mary is a woman. I am, yeah. Mary is, you know, is a woman who has a future beyond football. That's kind of what that said to me. And that felt like a really lovely way to, you know, to end and to share something so personal.

32:43Mark:Yeah, thank you. I think we don't talk about it enough. We don't talk about, you know, not everybody wants to be a mom and that's fine. You know, it's each to their own, how everyone wants to live. For me, it's like if football is my purpose, like I do feel like my reason for being on the planet is to, you know, have kids have a family and yeah hopefully leave my part on the world and you know bring good kids and people into the world maybe we'll see if they turn out to be little I don't know if I can swear on this podcast little crap bags then you can you can tell me you can tell me differently but yeah it's obviously different you know you put your body through a lot and yeah it was something again that was you know it's part of the decision it was a very all-rounded decision and I I was able to yeah go through a fertility treatment which hopefully I'll be able to look back on and feel really glad that I did in whenever I'm ready a few years time I don't know whenever I'm ready to stop because I don't know how women come back it's absolutely incredible I don't understand it not many come back in football do they no and it's happening more and more which is amazing and it needs to but I don't know how people do it to put your body through that and then come back and be athletic even even women in day-to-day life i'm like how do you even how do you do the juggle yeah how do you do it it's amazing and yeah hopefully that's a wonderful problem i'll have one day

34:02Gabby:i've never heard the word crap i mean that was a beautiful speech but i've never heard the word

34:06Mary Earps:crap bags i think she was gonna say i think she's gonna say something slightly worse i wasn't sure

34:11Gabby:yeah i know i i take pride in knowing the majority of phrases and swear words but i've never heard crap bugs.

34:18Mary Earps:I'm sure they won't be. Mary, thank you so much. I feel like we've kind of, you know, slightly kind of dipped you in the water here for the immersion of selling this book and talking about this book over the next month or so, which will be an interesting experience for you. Thank you so much for coming on Sports Agents.

34:35Mark:Thank you for having me.

34:37Gabby:The Sports Agents.

34:42Gabby:The Sports Agents.

34:44Mark:With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

34:48Gabby:All in, football, life and learning to be unapologetically me is out on November the 6th. And I think we touched on it at the start, didn't we? Just that it's the realisation of talking about it that really struck me during that.

35:03Mary Earps:The rawness, actually. And I was struggling to think of any sports people who've produced a book which has got such kind of candid, honest moments during their career. Normally people wait a few years afterwards, don't they? and let the dust settle and maybe they've gone around and kind of repaired relationships. But, I mean, even at the weekend, Hannah Hampton was putting out stuff on her social media which seemed to kind of acknowledge what was going on. So, yeah, it doesn't feel like this one. I can imagine, you know, at the weekend, the WSL kind of was rife with people with their opinions and she's very sensitive to that, I think, Marriott.

35:38Gabby:If you don't mind, I'm going to tell people how they can get in touch here just to stop you slandering me. thesportsagentsatglobal.com is the email message us on social media if you want or via the link in the show notes

35:52Mary Earps:thank you for listening how are you going to sleep tonight?

35:58Gabby:a pack of emails by my bed The Sports Agents

36:03Mark:with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman

36:10Gabby:This has been a Global Player original production Thank you.