Max 'Dow-Mania' | How to protect a prodigy?

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. So what were you doing when you were 16 years old and 73 days? A lot of homework, maybe squeezing in an extra hour on the PlayStation?

0:13Gabby:I don't actually think the PlayStation was invented when I was 16. If I'm honest, I was actually preparing for the Commonwealth Games, but I didn't like to say. Twirling a ribbon about every couple of hours. Anyhow, as far as Max Dowman is concerned, but it was a very valiant effort. He was last seen gliding across the length of a Premier League pitch, scoring a goal that rewrote history and maybe even tilted the title race. Max, Dalmania is upon us. Go on, you're allowed to gloat a little bit. They've put a note in here. What did I do? You said this could be his breakout season. Oh, did I? I mean, I wasn't alone in that.

0:48Gabby:OK, thank you very much. Thank you. No prodigy, though, appears out of finesse. So let's talk about the conditions, expectations and enormous amount of work that goes into producing a moment like that on the weekend. And was he really back at school studying for his GCSE exams yesterday morning? He should be. There should be important exams coming up. There are tiresome calls, you could say, for, well, they are, aren't they, for Downman to be part of England's World Cup plans. So has football got any better at protecting its prodigious talents? We'll speak to someone who helped develop an even younger Max.

1:22Gabby:Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:31The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman So we are going to talk about Max Dowman shortly with Des Ryan who's former head of Academy Sports Medicine and Athletic Development at Arsenal for almost a decade and it was just a glorious moment wasn't it?

1:51Gabby:It was, even if you don't support Arsenal even if you don't like Arsenal I'm not I'm not referring to myself um maybe not if you support Everton but it couldn't fail to put a smile on your face and and I do genuinely it is the kind of thing that completely changes the belief and mindset around a club and a fan base it is that moment where which we do I think we are obsessed though aren't we in sport with prodigies and youngsters and people who break through you know kind of seemingly you know not from nowhere obviously because that's what we'll discuss a little bit later but in terms of that age where you're not supposed to be that good at that age and actually bringing this round to the Six Nations this weekend is what we hear a lot from our pundits actually Sam Warburton is always reminding our audience that certain players like Henry Pollock are very unusual in international rugby you know especially back rowers you're not supposed to really be playing international rugby until you're 23 24 it takes that long to really hone your skills and football does have a much greater pool of younger talents doesn't it breaking through but even even even at 23 and 24 and we've talked about this before and i have i remember talking to alan shearer about it when he first interviewed erling harland who was 23 i think at the time the poise and confidence of some of these young men and women at that age and you you have um two kids and and they are very sporty and i and i've got three kids and they are very sporty but not in a not in a professional sense and i look at well i used to look at it with my eldest who's nearly 23 and think could like could you talk in the same way in an interview and that's nothing to to have a got my own child it's more how remarkable some of these i still think 22 23 as a kid how remarkable they are in dealing what they're doing i think it is partly as well is that they seek because they're on social media, they see a lot of people doing interviews all the time.

3:47And I think they've learned a lot of their behavior through seeing, you know, those people and how to behave. And certain personalities are more kind of naturally happy and easygoing in that environment than others, aren't they? You know, case in point would be Henry. You know, he's to the man of born. He's meant to be on that stage. So let's, can we just dive into the Six Nations a little bit? Because it was, I mean, all the pundits have pretty much said it, haven't they? The best Six Nations ever. as a final day it was tremendous you know when you think that 24 hours later i still i kept thinking about moments especially in that england game it was pure adrenaline the sport of the

4:23Gabby:highest order you were absolutely on the edge of your seat throughout the whole thing and again irrelevant actually of who you support whatever your nationality is it because it was a game that the France game, the France-England game, because it ebbed and flowed, because it wasn't like, they were having a discussion with somebody yesterday, there was a 38-all, wasn't there, between England and Scotland a few years back, but that was a massive comeback in that game. Whereas this just went one way and then the other and then back that way and then back the other way. And for the whole tournament to come down to the very last kick, you couldn't script it better.

5:04It was amazing. during the Wales game when Wales stormed ahead to a 21-0 lead against Italy and were looking for their first win at home in the Six Nations for three years and that was a totally unexpected kind of start to the game the guy next to me is a guy Jordan who does stats and I was going what's the swing that they need for England to get the wooden spoon he's going it's 100 points Gabby I was like okay well if they get 50 and France put 50 on them so the permutations of the day were so exciting it was a brilliant brilliant tournament absolutely just loved it it was just joyous

5:35Gabby:It was absolutely joyous. And I was talking to Andy Nicol last night, the former Scotland scrum half, and he kind of did virtually a sort of relay of the win succession that went round the tournament. Yeah, everybody beating everybody. Which was basically everybody beating everybody. And then one of the other discussions that we were having, and we do go into this territory sometimes on this podcast, is reviews and what's the future and the RFU are going to have one. I think every country would find it quite hard to get a sort of comprehensive sensible review out of that tournament because what you thought about Ireland after two games is very different to what you think about Ireland after five games.

6:19The only thing I would say, so Kenny was telling me yesterday that some of the Scottish press were calling for Gregor's head which you just can't believe. After the Ireland. After the Ireland game, yeah. Now Scotland do have a problem in the last decade with Ireland and they have faced them at the last World Cup, they'll face them at the next World Cup. So they've got to get over that somehow. And they've got to work out a plan B, how you beat Ireland. That's the only thing a review of Scotland, I would say, needs to look at. What your plan B is to beat Ireland. Because they can beat England in their sleep.

6:43They've now beaten France in a way that, you know, they know how to play France. And there's no reason why they can't play that style of rugby again. Obviously, they got over that Wales hurdle. They had 20 years where they didn't beat Wales in the principality. You know, they obviously have got a ding-dong with Italy the last few years. They've been back and forth. Maybe it's just looking at how you beat Ireland. For England, I think it's a different kettle of fish altogether, though. I think it's about how much money and expertise goes into that group of players. There is an expectation that they should be winning Grand Slams, and they're far from that at the moment.

7:14So I guess maybe it's not so much a review, it's a look at what needs to just click in this group that makes it... And then I think you probably ask the players that, don't you? You speak to the players a little bit more.

7:24Gabby:Well, Matt Dawson shot this down with me when I was talking to him about it, which is and i only asked the question i didn't say this is what i think is do they play like they do against france when there is no pressure on that game and he went well there's always pressure if you play for your kind and i buy i get that i completely get that but even then did they go into that france game with nothing to lose i i and going back to the scotland thing is i know scotland have a problem with ireland in general over the last 11 years or whatever but would a review be more valid if they'd fallen to them at Murrayfield an island have gone there and won and sometimes with the six nations you are at the mercy of a fictionalist which complicates a sort of comprehensive review as well you look at italy who had those two magnificent you know wins and we're looking for their historic third and then just looked a bit shell-shocked and didn't really show up and and what i think we've kind of pointed to is just great sport and actually I think just to enjoy it is it was perfect yeah it was perfect from from the opening weekend to the very final kick and on a kick Ramos I mean has anybody ever struck a ball with more precision in the most unbelievably pressured situation not doinking off a post or or the button this is I'm tingling now like this is in his head he's going this is to win the Six nations right now without this we don't win the six and you know the celebrations are literally on ice aren't they they're about to set off fireworks or they're not yeah oh by the way on that that's my one complaint you don't like fireworks no i love fireworks but and i thought this every time i've every time i've watched you presented the six nations either at halftime or at full time could they leave the lights on what's this obsession with dark what's this obsession declared that they're having two years of the roof closed to enhance the fan experience which means turning the lights out effectively and having various DJs and music which means we then get kind of pushed off our already quite narrow position pitch side into a tiny little kind of dip by the side of the hoarding so that we don't get burned because the fireworks are going off behind us.

9:32Can't see anything, can't hear anything because the PA is so loud. So you're literally doing it in the dark.

9:37Gabby:You know, I may be in there in the crowd. I'm 52. I want to go get a pint and a pie and I can't actually, I mean, I have to put my torch on in restaurants already. you're leading us nicely to our first chat today sounding very old and we're going to talk about uh the very very young before we do though uh thanks for matching today thanks for getting the memo well done well done you're in manchester you've gone with a green jacket it is you know when we walked into the studios together you had a little bit of liam about you i'm mad for it let's go make sure you subscribe or follow and leave a review get in touch on the socials at the sports agents or email the sports agents at global.com so just how impressive is max downman on the training ground and where could he end up his former coach at arsenal des ryan joins us next your shiny trousers aren't very liam that's the only thing the sports agents

10:32it's sports greatest soap opera and we've got your vip pass to all the drama this is up to speed Your new Formula One podcast with me, Will Buxton, David Coulthard, Naomi Schiff and Jolie Sharp. Expect unfiltered race reactions, behind the scenes insights and blockbuster interviews. Plus answers to the questions you've always wanted to ask. Like, do F1 drivers pass their driving test first time? Spoiler, they don't. When the race weekend's over, we're here to keep you up to speed. Listen and watch today. Search Up to Speed on Global Player. Up to Speed.

11:16The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Des, thank you so much for joining us on The Sports Agents. We termed it Dowmania at the top of our show today. You know, everybody wants to know everything about a kid who's, you know, 16 years old. So, you know, tapping into people who have seen him, have been up close, who recognised his talent early on. Tell us your involvement with him and what your job was at the time. I was working in Arsenal Academy for nine years. My position was head of sports medicine and athletic development. So overseeing sports science, sports medicine, the support for players from under nine all the way up to under 23 at the time.

11:58And post lockdown, we had to go with certain teams. and I picked the nicest age group under 12. They're perfect, not too much hormones, mannerly young men. So it is, I think, the nicest age group and happened to include Max in that age group. Albeit he was under 11, he was playing a year off. An informed decision based on technical, tactical, physical, psych, social. So just go into that for us then. So when a player is asked to play up or is told they should be playing up, they go through a series of tests to make sure they can cope with it, not just physically, but mentally. Yeah, the full picture, holistic.

12:35And in Arsenal, they have a wonderful performance plan, they're called. And there's four pillars, most efficient mover, physical, effective team player, technical, tactical, champion mentality, psych social, and lifelong learner, education. So at every review, at every player progress meeting, at every player parent meeting, they're the four pillars that are looked at. And that reminds everyone. It's not just about technical, tactical, the full picture. So Max was an early developer, and of the general population, 15 % would be early developers, 15 % would be late developers, and 70 % on time.

13:13But unfortunately, in academies, often selection is lent towards early developers. Now, in fairness to Arsenal, they do a very good job at assessing biological maturation, looking at the player, getting to know them and picking the talent rather than the early mature. But Max happened to be an early mature, technically very good, no issues with education and fitted in the group well, psyched socially. So it was easy for him to slot into the age group up and that helped his development, a logical decision. Now, players had to play down too.

13:48Gabby:Well, and actually, I was just going to ask you about players that play down. Because of that holistic approach, that must help those players that maybe play down because there's no sort of stigma attached to that. It all fits into this framework. 100 percent once the chats are had once the education is given it's tricky you can imagine the parent going why why is my under 12 boy playing under 10s even and as long as there's time to chat go through the reason behind it explain to them yeah chronologically he might be 12 but biologically 11 so this is only fair having an opportunity to look at the player in a more fair environment.

14:33So tricky discussions, but logical decisions and logical reasons behind it. And there's been plenty of late developers like Joe Willock, etc. So and Flo Balagon. So in a group like that, that you were in charge of, that was your the under 12s, your group. When you look at that group, is it possible even at that age to pick out two or three players that you think will almost certainly make it as professionals? No, I was going to say yes until you said certainly. I did say almost certainly. True, true. So you pitched it correctly. It is hard, but there's some very skilled people in Arsenal Academy.

15:11And I consult with Brentford Academy as well. Very skilled people there. And the key to it is not just one scout making a decision, not just one person. There's a multidisciplinary team throwing everything on the table physically, the four pillars, as I mentioned. and make an informed decision. And there are certain players that the flag is waved and, wow, we've got a great talent here. And yes, Max would have been one of them. I don't think anyone would have predicted he'd play at 16 in the Premier League and score, et cetera. They would have thought he would have a high chance of playing at the highest level for sure.

15:49But there's other players like Hector Beller, and I remember he was right up to 19. he had one brilliant pre-season with the first team and then he went on to star for the first team captain the club but I can't remember too many people saying that would happen so there's always opportunity there's always hope given everything that you've said

16:09Gabby:they they seem to manage hype very well at Arsenal do they because we always hear every club every club probably in the 92 days you know talk to a fan and a fan will go oh apparently we've we've got someone in the under 14s we've got somebody in the under 16s the under 18s Max Damman has had that for for a few years but the system that they seem to put in place allows for the excitement but not the overhype would that be fair yeah back to the performance plan back to leadership back to discipline humility respect were the values I still remember them they were used in almost every conversation uh behavior was an important thing uh with linked to the value of discipline i used to be on the uh disciplinary panel when the they're boys boys make mistakes the male brain doesn't develop till 23 so they're gonna um make mistakes and there needs to be rules and repercussions so that is in place in arsenal it was in place in arsenal i even remember it was the only time i ever saw bakayo do something naughty Nothing serious.

17:16He did something naughty when he was around 18 and he was with the first team. And I sat down with him and then we had the chat and I let him pick the repercussion and he chose to clean the gym. And so even at that stage with a player playing with the first team, still in academy, in transition. Can you tell us what he did? No.

17:39I just can't imagine him being naughty. Exactly. And I know he wasn't with you as a kid, but it's the same way I can't imagine Declan Rice ever doing anything wrong do you know what I mean he's just such a lovely young man that comes through doesn't it from the homegrown players from Arsenal I know I mentioned Rice obviously was homegrown through West Ham but there is that importance of being a good person is clearly something that a lot of emphasis is put on is that something that is do you think more and more important is it something that has been weighted more heavily over the last 10 years or so I think was was EPPP and England should be so happy with that, that it was introduced and he was lucky enough to come over at the start of it.

18:20That made sure the right positions were in place. And in Arsenal, they made some very good decisions putting people in those positions, like Per Matysacker. So you can imagine him mentoring, influencing, guiding the young players on how to maximize their opportunity in the first team when it comes and how to behave. There's a very good coach, Simon Copley, and he's the lead phase coach under 14 13 12 now he would have been working with max at under 12 and i know they still have a strong relationship and simon's what i call a specialist academy coach and he lives and breathes that teenage years and he knows how to manage them how to mentor them how to challenge them and how to to support them so having leaders and mentors like that is so important to develop good people good people make better players is a is a mantra that's used around Arsenal many times and linking to those values.

19:13So EPPP is the Elite Player Performance Plan, and that was devised at St George's Park.

19:18Gabby:It came in, didn't it, after the World Cup in South Africa. That's right, Des, isn't it? I'm going to take the credit away from the FA, and I'm going to give the credit to the Premier League. So the Premier League devised it, drove it, created it. You can see it now with all the good quality English players coming through. Des, when you see the reaction to what happened at the weekend for Max Damman, do you feel torn in any way? Is there a kind of, wow, what an amazing thing to happen? The reaction has been lovely, the excitement of Arsenal fans. And then is there another part of you that thinks, crikey, let's just calm down and look after him?

20:04Yes. So I was there. I go over two or three times. I'm so happy I was there on Saturday. And it was very it was so exciting. It was so emotional. It was great to see. But now, yeah, what happens next? I'm at ease with it because of the support that's there, security, education. Matt Henley, head of education, Oxford graduate, principal at a good school, been in the club for many years. Sophie Courtright. She's the player care person. And you've got security. You've got mentors around them. And his family. Exactly. Yeah. So he will be looked after well. The important thing is he'll have a developmental week, I call it.

20:41Everyone else, all the adults will have a performance week. He's still got to do his school. He's still got to fulfill development because the potential, oh my God. And I always felt professional football players were developed mainly under 18. So he's got those two years still to go. So to kind of add to Mark's point then, in terms of this kind of clamour that he should be included in England's squad for the World Cup. What's your thought process on that? I would advise, if I was to advise, but I'm not. I'm not with the club. He probably should play less matches than the other adults. And that would result in more developmental time.

21:20So two matches a week continually, probably not a good idea. But they're clever people. I know they'll look after him and he'll probably be playing part matches, maybe a full match. It'll be managed correctly and that opens the windows to he needs to get stronger he needs to get more powerful he needs to develop his endurance and at that age there's a window to accelerate that development so if he does that oh he'll be even better and there's a good tradition in arsenal and not in every club of good quality strength training and that is so important in the premier league the speed power sprint scores of everyone and once you get example squatting 1.7 times body weight that will help with robustness that will help with speed speed repeatability you also des you need

22:06Gabby:something that none of us can measure don't you which is luck yeah and and that could be luck in who are your rivals in your position it could be luck in whether somebody gets injured ahead of you in in your position it's luck on your own physical condition there are so many things that play into this that can't that actually can't be measured and therefore actually needs to be even more managed yeah there's so many variables and as long as the right support is around the person you'll kind of make your own look if you work hard if you follow the developmental weeks if you follow the advice if you have the right support around you yeah that's important but i did want to add i would have some concerns with a 16 year old in a club that isn't as advanced as Arsenal in a club that hasn't got the support.

22:57I'd be worried about a young man hanging around the dressing room with adults talking things that a young man shouldn't be listening to. I'd be worried if he wasn't doing those developmental weeks and fell into a performance week where I'll just play a match, I'll do limited training. That's not good. And there would be some safeguarding concerns. There would be some worries for me. So I think if a 16-year-old is to play adult football, the environment of a category one academy is probably the best. Interesting talking about luck, Ethan Nguyenieri's had a bit of bad luck, hasn't he really? Going on loan to Marseille specifically to work under Roberto Deserbi and then Deserbi getting sacked 18 days after he arrived and that would not have been Arsenal's plan for him.

23:37No, I don't know the specifics of it but I know Ethan and his talent as well and he's going to thrive, he's going to make the most of the opportunity and another exciting player to come along and you mentioned luck and Miles Lewis-Skelly, fantastic season last season. And every young player has to look out for the second season syndrome. Is there such a thing? I don't know. But with Max as well, opposition will analyse his strengths. Opposition will analyse his weaknesses. It'll become harder to get those performances. Now, I watched the defender marking Max on the weekend, and I saw the fear in his face that I saw in many other players that trained with Max.

24:15So maybe they won't be able to stop that change of direction, that speed that he has with and without the ball. And I'm sure lots of other Premier League clubs try and do exactly what Arsenal are doing here.

24:25Gabby:But what comes through, finally, is that in an era, Des, where young players can often be seen as commodities to be traded, actually, to help a club's financial results, the one thing that comes through is that they're human beings at Arsenal. They may still be sold, but everything is put in place for them to be human beings. You're right. And I try to avoid language like academy products. They're not products. They're people. I try to avoid talking about the finances of it. But it does exist. And the family, the advisors, they're the ones to talk about that. And it's something I rarely got into.

25:02I didn't ask them the big salaries they're on. I pushed that to the side. They were all the same to me. I guess it's push and pull, isn't it? Because Hansi Flick, of course, criticised Spain, didn't he, for playing Lamin-Yemal in two World Cup qualifiers. And he needed injections for pain. He's played a lot of football. but I imagine also having a young man who plays professional sport myself and my son plays they want to play as much as they can so he'll be saying I'm sure I want to play you know and and it's that balancing act isn't it it's you have to as a club you're you know in the position that you you were holding before Des almost be parental in your care and saying this isn't actually the best thing for you even though you think it is right now how many conversations do you have like that with your teenagers yeah yeah they're my favorite players the ones you have to hold back and you measure everything and the most important thing is the conversation how they're feeling is something going on and you could at this stage 16 max is still growing you have to measure the rate of growth how many centimeters per year earlier in his age group some players grow over 7.2 centimeters a year that means they're more predisposed to growth related injuries he's past that now but he'll still be growing so that needs to be measured his readiness to train his mood his explosiveness once you look at all those figures and once you talk to him and once you know what he has done in the past and you gradually do a little bit more that's safe management i guess it's different different sports isn't it kimmy antonelli at the weekend 19 years old uh winning